What's she gonna do? Brother? When Jeff Townsend Media runs wild on you. I'm super excited to chat with my good friends today. Man, it's been a while and we got to stop coming together on something such a tragic thing. But I am really happy to see you guys. I'm talking about the amazing Annia Cane and the manly Kevin Brainley. He's got a full beard now, you know, you, guys, this is a this is an audio only podcast at this point in time. But still though, last time I talked to Kevin he was a clean shape fella. I've been seeing him all over the place with his beard now and I must say I'm impressed. Thank you, Thank you guys both for taking the time to do this. You have busy schedule You've got. I don't know what you've done so far today. You've got a quart TV appearance later, which you frequently do, which I said, I'm a big fan of Google that. By the way, YouTube at whatever you want to say. Court TV has a really good presence on YouTube, so you can catch up on some of the stuff you guys talk about there with them, and to follow it up tonight, you're going to hang out with our good friends at the Prosecutor's podcast on YouTube later. So I appreciate again, I appreciate you taking the time out of your busy, hectic schedule to do this. Well, we so appreciate you having us. Jeff. We alwayd love talking to you about this case and really anything. We really enjoy your interviews and so we're super happy to be here. Thank you. Like I said, it's unfortunate we had to come together on something like this, but you guys are always very supportive of If I always say it affiliate of Jeff Townsend Media, you know, I've got you on my website host one of your websites, So I mean it's I consider you guys good good friends at this point, so thank you so anytime we can say to you a good friend too. This podcast has actually kind of gone through a little bit of a rebrand to more of America Stories, but I have a couple of friends that are helping me out with it. But the core audiences Indiana and we spoke with you guys last year. It was kind of surprising to hear about how many people didn't really know about this case. They have this national case, but to me that was proof that there's still people out there that hadn't heard about it. So it was great. They absolutely loved you and they support your podcast now a lot of them so, but more importantly, they're following the case. So yeah, again, if you haven't checked out, you guys checked out the work of Kevin Ananya. It's some murder sheet and they cover all sorts of different things, but really have become the I don't want to stereotype, but but you're affiliated with this Delphi case quite a bit now. So and you guys do a lot of other you know, with a burger chef murders, you have so much other experience, but the Delphi case is definitely something you guys have covered a lot. So we're going to catch up today. Last time we talked, we really just left off on the probable cause Alfa, David, that was wow. I don't know is that six more than six months ago? Now eight months ago, nine months ago? A lot's happened since then, But today news broke we'll get to that. Admitted just playing catchup. What's really happened in the last several months that's caught your guys attention. I know that the recent thing has been Richard Allen and his defense kind of throwing it out there that the unfair conditions at the facility he's been kept at until the trial. What else would you think would be important to mention before we go into these details, like what else have you thought of? It would be significant if somebody hadn't maybe heard any updates. I think the biggest thing for me, at least is at the June fifteen, twenty twenty three hearing for due process, the defense sort of revealed a bombshell, which was that there are incriminating statements that were met by Richard Allen. They were trying to get ahead of it basically sand listen, this isn't as bad as it sounds. Prosecution was then hammering on it and revealing more detail that there were five to six incriminating statements. Nick mcclell and the prosecutor referred to them as confessions. So I think that's the biggest thing to come out because that's essentially like new possible evidence in the case, whether or not, you know, it could turn out to be incoherent and not super compelling, or could turn out to be quite compelling. We don't know what, but something that both sides are gonna have to content. Yeah, up until today, as of today, what's the day today, twenty eighth of June. We really had just until that, we had just been hearing basically the coordinate's going to be this day. The defense once talked it was minimal stuff right then, So this is starting to make sense. A couple of weeks ago we heard about the defense saying this incriminating evidence, So this is kind of making sense now. Like you said, they were getting ahead of what was announced today, plenty of court documents unsealed. I guess you could say, bring some things the light in one of those, which and we can get into details here, but one of the things that I lighted was the fact that Richard Allen has made five to six confessions on I don't know some of them were via phone to his family and other things. But then again, and I'll let you guys take over. After this several months, we kind of and this sounds like the seed was planted that Richard Allen right or wrong. I'm not saying it that maybe having some mental issues may be deteriorated mentally. That has been planted since several months early part of the year and now it's starting to kind of make everything deluded in this gray area with these confessions that came out today. But I'll let both that you take over now and kind of explain what came out today. I explained the general stuff. I've explained the general stuff since the last several months. Most of the filings in this case have been tapped confidential, and it hasn't been clear why they've been kept confidential, because generally speaking, neither the defense nor the prosecutor has asked for that level of secrecy for every single filing. And so we decided that wasn't appropriate, and we felt to the level of secrecy was harming the case and inspiring a lot of conspiracy theories belike. So we actually filed into the case and asked Judge Gull to release all of the documents that could be released, and basically that's what happened day and early this afternoon, over a hundred documents that were previously sealed were open. Yeah, and we assumed that there would be only a handful, and we didn't think there would be that many, But it sounds like she did a very intensive review based on our filing, and you know, she's looking at this. She's a former prosecutor and has a recutation for being a very meticulous judge, So she's not just releasing everything. She's looking and seeing what should be released, what should not be released, what would be released in a typical case, you know, what are all the pros and cons and what does the law say after making those determinations. She released them today and of the you know, they give us a lot of insight on a lot of different aspects of the Keiths that were in the Jark. But one thing, we got more information on the actual confessions and also the timeline between you know, the confessions and the sort of mental deterioration, because those seem to be intricately connected on you know, and that's something that actually both sides of the aisle sort of acknowledge here. Yeah, going back to the confessions, and I used the term plead saying the seed was planted kind of makes it seem like I'm saying something mean by saying that, But what I'm really saying is, so the first confession that they're talking about here, but what day did they go back to? April? Yeah, they said that the first confession actually happened on April third, and they said this was in a phone call between Alan and his wife, and that during the course of this conversation, Richard Allen confessed to the crime several times, and eventually Kathy Allan and got so upset she into the call fruptly. And then what's interesting is that it was a couple of days after that that the defense filed their motion saying, well, guess what, we think something's going on with him the last couple of days he's been acting as if his mental condition has deteriorated. And oddly enough, they also sing about April third is a day when he started acting irrationally. And I'll I'll say this, like, I think I could see two sides to it. I think if you're made being more favorable towards the prosecution, you're like, Okay, that's awfully convenient. He's fine. Then he you know, confesses, and then he loses his mind, like like that's a bit convenient. At the same time, if you're on the defensive side, you're saying, you know, his mental deterioration caused the confession, so it makes sense that it's linked. So it's kind of you're seeing those two kind of camps. You view it in different ways, but basically, prosecution is saying he confessed and is acting bizarrely because he feels and reckoning with that, and the defense is saying this is an innocent man is unraveling. Yeah, absolutely, I could definitely see both arguments. But for me, I guess my point was, there's no coincidence that these things were mentioned when they were. I don't I'm not thinking. I mean, it seems like everything's matching up here right or wrong to where it is. And we'll talk about some of the other confessions to let you guys mention if we have any other information on that. But how does this hold up? Do you think when we're presenting this as a case, presenting this in court? That's a really good question. I don't know if I have a strong opinion either way about it being strong or a weak case. There seems to be a lot to una here, and I would say that like there's going to be a lot that gets determined in the pre trial hearings and the pre trial motions, because that's going to determine the rules, the boundaries, what evidence can be admitted, what evidence will get tough out, and that could really shape how strong of the case or how weak of the case it ultimately he is. But if you are McCleland at this point and you're saying, we have some confessions he pleases himself at the scene, and we feel that ballistics evidence strongly links him to the scene, then you know, you're probably feeling pretty good about that. At the same time, of the defense is a lot of avenues to chip away at that. They can contest ballistics evidence, say that's not reliable. They can try to get the gun thrown out. You know, they have issues of search warrant. So there's still a lot of avenues for the defense to take if they are, you know, trying to be strategic and look at all their options. And I think it's also important to note that we haven't actually heard or read the actual content of these so called confessions, and both the prosecution and the defense characterize them differently. Zania said. The prosecutor repeatedly referred them as confessions. On the other hand, defense attorney Brad Rosie said, well, that makes it sound like he was being interrogated or something and then broke down and suddenly started telling everyone the same story. And Rosie said that's not what it is. He's just saying things that are basically incoherent and they're not consistent. And if that's the case, people might find that less convincing, and it also goes back to his mental state at the time he made these statements. Another one of the documents that was released today, for instance, was a letter from another inmate at Westville who resides near where Richard Allen is, and according to this inmate, people are yelling at Richard Allen a lot, calling him a kid killer, saying he should kill himself. I'm sure the defense would say treatment like that would really affect the curson. I'll just jump in with one more thing though, from the prosecution's perspective, a lot of people assume the confessions happened in like a jailhouse snitch scenario, or like to a guard or to a law enforcement officer, and those would all some concerns around. You know, a coercion manipulation outright lies on the part of a snitch that might be trying to cut a deal. Yeah, get benefit from their Yeah, I get their sentence his reduced up. Then, yeah, you know, like that's a that's a thing that happens, it's very dubious and unfortunate. But in this case, I think being recorded and being unprompted. I don't believe his wife is interrogating him on the phone, you know, doing gotcha questions. I don't think that's the context here. So that seems problematic for the defense because it's like that's a maybe the one safe place for Richard Allen, a nice conversation with his wife. Kathy stood by him and has gone to all these hearings for him. So I think that is a bit of a problem that they need to explain by saying, here is the mental deterioration that we're seeing. It's part of that. Maybe he's trying to put a distance between them. I don't know, but if not that he actually killed anyone, it's just this mental issue. The defense has no choice but to react, right, I mean, this is another hurdle for them. It seemed like before and we don't know everything yet, but it seemed like before, hey, what this bullet is questionable. Now this kind of throw is something else at him. They had to react one way or another, and it seemed like that's exactly what they're doing doing their job. I guess you could say, yeah, do we know anything else about? Then we'll move on. But do we know anything else about any of the other confessions we have the inmate, we have the recorded phone calls that there's like five or six different instances that were brought up, but they didn't go in specifics. Do we know of anything else? There's a reference in one of these documents saying that he confessed over the phone five or six times in calls to life and was bother So that's where the five or six times came out in relationship, Like, we don't know if that's five or six phone calls or five or six times in one pe good point, act, that's a really good point. Do you got to mention that, Yeah, that's solid because it's one phone call or that'll all make a difference. But it's all going to make it more challenging for the defense. I mean, it's going to other things in this that were strange. I remember reading something about eating paper. He was stuffing court documents down his eating paper or something or my correct there. Yeah, that's that's one hundred percent accurate, the prosecution said. After Richard Allen made these alleged fashions to his wife, and she ended up hanging up the call on him. His mental condition began to almost immediately interiorate. He stopped wanting to sleep, stopped wating to eat, he stopped he Previously he'd been making a couple of phone calls a day. Suddenly he's going in weeks without making any phone calls. And another behavior prosecution mentioned in this document was, as you said, he was literally eating the paper that has had his legal work on it. And maybe that also plays into at different times the defense has that've been saying they're not giving him our paperwork. It made me the reason they're not giving it to him looks big because he was Siblman fair point. He definitely physically has been You've seen some change in Richard Allen physically lost a lot of weight, doesn't look like in the best of health, which is not uncommon when you see somebody incarcerated. I don't want to draw a direct comparisonbody, at least to think of the Golden State killer Joseph de'angelo. Right when he first brought him in, he was out working in his yard, and then with a matter of a couple months, you see this fragile old man what appeared to be. So I have no doubt the conditions there are not perfect, but there really doesn't seem to be. I mean, that's nothing's going to change as far as that gears. It doesn't seem where he's being housed. Yeah, that's a that's a really good point, and it kind of reflects the prosecution's contention that like anywhere he's gonna be, he's going to be isolated. He's going to have to be isolated for his safety, and there's not going to be any other options that are as spacious or did that are you know, more spacious in a significant way or significantly better conditions They even you know, said that, you know, Cass County Jail where the defense wants and they don't have like full time mental health stop. So there's like a lot of back and forth. I mean, the defense contends though that that's not the only issues. They're also noting correctly that west Fill's quite far away for both of them, and it's better for Alan if his attorneys can get to him quicking without having to drive many miles and you know, go through all the security of a prison versus a jail. So it's another one where you can kind of see both sides of it. But but basically, the prosecution's like, you're not going to get a better situation anywhere else, and he cannot be around other inmates because they will him based on what he's accused of doing. Is it common for in a case like this for the individual to be housed in our prison before trial? Do we see this often or is it normally discounty jail? We've asked around and it's pretty unheard of. Um, you might have people transferred from one jail to another, that's not unheard of. But as far as like a you know, as the defense is called a pre trial detainee being housed at the you know, MCU, the most you know, intensively controlled area of Westville. Even when prosecution witnesses were asked that at the last hearing, you know, the warden and other official prison noted that that they're not aware of another case of that happening. So it's definitely the defense is absolutely right to say that it's very unusual. I bet it also raises the level of attention that the Westfield facility is receiving it and managing as well. Oh yeah, yeah, But it's a controversial place. It's definitely it's come under criticism for treatments of inmates. We talked to a couple of people who were incarcerated there. They were in gen POP and for behavioral reasons, they were placed in the maximum Control unit, and I mean they basically said that, like, in their opinion, he's not being treated worse necessarily, it's weird that he's there before trial, but like that's just the experience there because you know, and they noted that they would see people starting to deteriorate because you're alone and you're with your thoughts. It takes a very strong person deal with that. In first, the prosecution would tell you that there's very there's very good reason why he's not at the Carol County Jailed because it's a relatively small jail, they don't have a big staff, and this is somebody who would be at a risk because there's people in that community who are very angry, understandably with anyone who's been accused of killing those two girls. And they were argued, we just don't have the manpower or the facilities to have him here safely, and so therefore it's important for him to be somewhere else, somewhere where he could be protected, and certainly, no matter what you think of the living conditions last all, that is certainly one of the few places in the state where he is safe. Another thing that a lot of people are taken away from this, the documents that released today draw into the conclusions of a cause of death. Let you speak to that. I don't remember what exactly in the filings got into that, but I saw there's a lot of news coverage around cause of death, and it's just so disturbing, and my heart goes out right out of the families because obviously, I think it's a good thing when more information comes out about the case, especially now that there's a trial going forward and the information is going to have to come out import no matter what. So having it come out, you know, establishing a situation where it can come out just as it comes out, instead of, you know, all during a trial, I think is a better situation. But you know, right now they're having you know, they're seeing all these headlines and it's just calling my knives and stuff. Yea awful too, Yeah, it really, it's really it's horrifying, and it brings you, like what this girl right and the reason I brought it up not to talk about what what it was necessarily, but more importantly, and you addressed it was it best to throw that out there, throwing information out there now beforehand because it's never let mean, no matter what this this coverage is going to be significant when when this trial happens. Do you guys think it's likely that if this will be mainstream televised or what is your guys feelings on that, Like, I don't know if you've been able to investigate some experience with these judges and just what what's the likelihood of that being possibility? Yeah, I've been doing a eat dive into judge goals story for a seven feature episodes. Um all you know with the with the with the night and with the cause of death. One thing that I think also had shifted in is that you know, I think it then releasing that at this point is a sign that like the feel like, yeah, they got their guy. When when there was a bullet involved and they didn't want the perpetrator to throw out a gun made sense to keep cause of death things like that really quiet. But now that we're hurtling towards a trial, it doesn't matter as much essentially, So it's like that shift in terms of timing. But as far as the you know, Judge Goal was one of the pilot judges for Indiana's first Cameras in Courtrooms program pilot program, and so we don't know any anyone what will happen for a fact, with anything, given the number, given the amount of public interests here, given the amount of media attention, and given the Judge Goal, um, you know, is very innovative in terms of some of the pilot programs and some of the things she's participated with. I think that they will probably end up allowing camera coverage at the trial. I don't think it's going to necessarily be allowed to devolve into a media circus. I can see a situation where you know, there's there's things that are in between, like cameras everywhere and no cameras of if they can have a pool system, one camera, everyone gets the footage. Judge Gull also will have a lot of discretion. You know, I don't want these witnesses filmed. I don't want you know, the jury can't be filmed obviously, you know, but she can kind of basically dictate you know, different things that make sense for this trial. So cameras in courtroom does not necessarily mean complete openness, which it shouldn't necessarily because aspects of a court should not be televised. And the current situation is frankly frustrating because there is such interest in the case and it's not exactly easy to find out what's happening at court because the courtroom is very small, and usually close to half of the courtroom is understandably reserved for family or potential witnesses, so there's not a lot of seats and so because of this, the public has to really rely on the perspectives of the handful of journalists and we can't even hear anything. Yeah, that's another thing is that the courtroom has a very bad audio system. We last hearing, we were lucky enough to sit in the front row because we got it very very early, and so we were able to hear probably about ninety percent of the stuff that was said. But other reporters who were there just a row or two behind us told us they could hear almost nothing. And that doesn't really seem to be an acceptable situation for a case where there is such public interest, because the public really has a right to know what's happening in their name. They need, they deserve to know what's happening in this case, absolutely, maybe we'll have to invest something into that, a little bit more of an infrastructure wise. In the courtroom, both have been very critical of law enforcement in the state of Indiana police to the lack of information that was shared. Now, looking back at everything and where we sit today, I'm going to ask you a really tough question here do it. Do you stand behind what you were saying this whole time or is your mind change at all knowing that we know today. I think you guys have faced a lot of You guys have been big advocates of that and faced a lot of difficulties because of that. But you guys have been saying, hey, there's no information, get the information out. Now we're here today. What are your thoughts? That's a great question, And I think I have I am kind of like two mindsets on it at this point, and I'll let you know if I like shipped on it further. Either way. I can understand definitely things like the bullet, because again, have a bullet, it's going to potentially link to somebody if that gets out, that leaks that, I mean, whoever has that gun is going to get rid of it right like, and then there's made no way to hide. And so I think I can really commend them, you know. I know there's a perception that there's been a lot of Delphi leaks or Delphi thinks getting out. But the people at who investigated his keys kept that locked down. I think that's impressive, and I think that really may work to their advantage if they end up, you know, getting a conviction here and a jury is convinced that Richard Allen is the perfect So I think keeping certain things private is very important for a case. And also, you know, I understand there's also the element of, like there's a lot of like really disturbed people out there who follow this case who essentially like will call in bad tips and they're they're too disturbed to realize that they're actually hurting, you know, the case by basically tying up resources over nonsense, you know what I mean. Like I'm not talking about like somebody who's in good like I'm talking about like big Foot, you know, like just stupid stuff that's just wasting everyone time. And so you want to be able to kind of like write off certain kind of crank calls quickly because you keep back information. So I'm sympathetic to that. I'm an anxious person by nature, so I feel like if I were in a position of power in a case like this, I would, But we want to hold it cut you off here. You have held a lot back. You guys have heard what Let's let's be honest. You guys also have heard things, and you went with high integrity and decided not to share it. So that's what makes this question. That's what makes that question that much tougher. Right, You guys actually were put in that position and you didn't say anything either because you knew it was best not too So, yeah, I know it's crazy. I didn't even think about it that way. But it's like we either we were like we had times were like you need to say things, and then like we got in several we've gotten like many situations where we were like, oh, but we cannot release this or we can't release this in this way or right now, and like, yeah, I guess it forced us to be more empathetic with the police in a way. Um, I'll say one thing, I think I think I think some of the media strategy um what was released or how it was released, I think it did fuel confusion. I think, you know, you've got you've had a situation where people were, you know, understandably hanging on every word released because there was so little information that was good and so people would almost like use their imaginations to connect the gaps. And I think that's right, and that's understandable human impulse. Those people were trying their best. But I think that's a bad situation to put republican and to put the media in. Frankly, I think there probably would have been a healthier balance here to release some things or I don't know, I mean not necessarily specific pieces of evidence, but just seem like a lot of confusion was fueled by the informational vacuum. But I think we can empathize, and I think we can say that we feel that the people working on this investigation here deeply about getting justice for Abby and Libby. And that doesn't mean everything they do it is perfect or you know anything. It's just I think the mode evations weren't It's like conspiracy cover up, you know, Like, yeah, I disagree with the level of secrecy. I understand why there needs to be some secrecy, and as you accurately play it out, there's a lot we've held back in the past. There's a lot we continue to hold back because if we don't learn harm the case. I think though, it's important to stress even though we disagree with a lot of the decisions the police and law enforcement have made in this, we do understand their decisions and we respect their integrity, and we don't for a moment think that they are holding stuff back for conspiratorial reasons or to cover up for their own mistakes. When they're making the decision to hold something back, they honestly believe that's the case, and you or I may disagree, but that's their honest And also, you can always release something later. You can never No, that'll probably be the toughest quote you guys have tele of interview scheduled. That might be the toughest question that you get asked to this whole thing. That really will make you That's why we won't talking to you, Jeff, because you're asking the hard questions and you like know this, like you know this whole story, so you ask cover questions and anyone else, Yeah, but honestly, it's great though, because it's like a good conversation and helps us by our position, and like you know, I think it kind of helps people understand everything better because it's like the slow rolling being for a lot of people and they're maybe not picking up every thread along the way, but I feel like you're good at kind of knitting that all together. Thank a couple more questions and we'll get out here. It's kind of tough, but this one was brought to my attention quite a bit on my website just being associated with you guys. I will receive some stuff every now and then comment about you guys, comment about the case whatever. A lot of people are asking why the hell are we still talking about Keegan Klein. So for you guys, and like I've said before, I'll go on the record to say this, you're cover Bridge. Whether it has anything to do with the killings or not, it looks like it doesn't to me as a father of three beautiful daughters in this state of Indiana. Has been meaningful to me and very eye opening about the dangerous people that are in society. So I'm getting emotional talking about it. So I thank you for that. But people are still asking why what is in it for you guys at this point in time. You recently had an interview, which was great, you went to the jail itself, you spoke with him, But what is it at this rate that keeps you guys in connection? I get he's kind of seems at this point in time he trusts you, and you've had to work hard. You've had to work hard to form any sort of relationship. Sounds silly, right to bridge any sort of gap, You guys have had to work pretty dang hard because this guy went from being rather upset with your coverage to being really one of the few people is going to talk to. That's yeah, that's absolutely fair question. And I think we tend to approach the case a little bit differently than some people, and I think he can be aggravating, But I think maybe if I explain that, people will understand we like have an academic interest and that means like we want to document everything. So like you know, when we released Ron Logan that Davis, you know, that wasn't us thinking it's Ron Logan, we got him. It was us saying, okay, what were the what were the police in the FBI doing in March of twenty seventeen, Like what were they focused on? Num Let's discuss was that? You know, like what you know, what was against him, what maybe was for him? How did this all happen? Like the story um then is filled out by all those books. For me, Hagan is part of the story. UM. He was on the radar very quickly in February twenty seventeen, and then he sort of loops back around where he's being kind of looked at again in twenty twenty. And whether or not he ends up being in any way related, I think it's fair to say that unfortunately, like Abby and Libby's deaths led to the uncovering of what he was doing, and you know, how it all fits together not clear yet, But to me it's interesting what basically these deaths did, the ripple effects that they had in terms of the wider investigation and what turns it went down before coming to rest on how So to me, he's still part of the story. A lot of people go into it more as like who can we land for this, or like who's the killer? And like I get that, because I mean that's kind of what you expect in true crime. It's like, let's figure this out, and we just have a different idea about what figuring it out means to us. It also means those kind of loose ends that maybe you're a little bit messier. And also what you said about I mean, I didn't realize like the level of Cee Sam that like happens everywhere and what a nightmare this is. So we also just kind of got really into like talking to experts about that topic because we just want to like do some public service journalism and let people know about like this is a thing you got to protect your kids, Like, we got to talk about this. So that's that's not like We've talked to a lot of people who also like were you know, new or we're in relationships with child predators who like had their lives destroyed by that and like the guilt they feel and like how they overcome that. So just kind of became an interesting avenue to explore. That's a that's a great answer, but and it also has to go back to for me, the interest and the passion of this instance is it's local to us. How much do you think that plays in do you guess, Yeah, that's huge, It's just kind of like, you know, I mean, I'm I'm from New York, so I kind of like, I think coming into Indiana's you know, like oh, it's like so nights and kind of like you know, chill, and you know, we don't we all know this, but like it's worth standing. Bad things happen everywhere, and like some time, even if it's like a really nice, cute, how wonderful people in it, there can be someone doing something really bad and it's worth talking about. And at the same time, you know, I think being reported on Kagan's story, we reported on like the you know, the fact that the Delphi investigation was very interested in him at one time, and I felt like we also need to you know, he needs to have a One thing we've been asking for him for a while is like, hey, talk to us, like tell your side of it. Like you know, we're you know, we're not gonna accuse you being involved. You know, we want you to be able to speak your piece, and so having an interview with him, hopefully was an opportunity for him to have his say, or at least say, here's my side of the story. I think one thing about doing something that's more or less love call is it basically gives us the opportunity to go to the communities on the really get people will see us there and they realize, oh, they just don't just come here for court. They're interested, they're interested knowing what it's like here, and they're see us, and they're gradually learn to trust us and give us a chance. And I'll tell you I love Carroll County, I love Delphi, and I love Peru in Miami County, which is Kagan's. I feel like we want to know both communities. We've gotten to know wonderful people in both, and we've gotten to know both as more than just where like a bad thing happened. They're like fully formed communities, and we don't want to be like just parachuting in and being like this is where something terrible happened by and then like you know, we want to be seeing them for what they really are. Because everyone hates that, right, Like when you like if a true crime podcast does like something on your hometown and they just kind of magnify one awful thing but then don't have any nuance, that's just annoying. Like that's just kind of like you feel like people are not really engaging with the subject. You've done a great job of connecting and introducing us to other individuals locally and at a national level as well that we probably wouldn't ever heard of or get to hear the side of the story or point of view, etc. So great job on that. I'm going to finish up with a question. You get asked every time you're on something. It's something that you're always going to be asked, why did it take so long? What do you think happened? It's incredibly like almost six years, right, five years. I mean, I feel like we could be surprised. We can learn more. I mean, I have to imagine we'll learn more information about that because it could be questioned at trial or hopefully post trials and some interview will explain it. But I and I think it could be just the boring answer of this tip got and nobody did anything, and then they just kind of fun their wheels on other suspects over time and came back to it. I think that's and that if that's the case, then that's so tragic because I think the people who did this investigation care about the case, and I think it's not about like people being bad or corrupt or dumb. It's just human error. Just and there were thousands upon thousands of tips. It sounds like this was a manual tip too, right, It's not like, hey, I holed in a left of voicemail. It sounds like Richard Allen walked up to an individual and he grow some stuff down. Yeah, and like and I don't think we should be looking for a steak or somebody to blink where it happening. I just think it's just it's it's tragic. It's just a tragedy and that may have been compounded by some human error. And perhaps there's a lesson in there somewhere about case management. But I don't think it's like anybody did anything horrible or egregious. It's just I mean, we talked to cops all the time in different cases, and you know, if you're getting one of them and you're really you know, talking about stuff like people will you know, like mistakes do happen. No one wants to think that it's going to be a mistake that has that level of impact. Like I said, the way you handle something that's physically wrote down is probably much more difficult than I guess there's more for human error. Like you said, that kind of stuff has a lot of room for human error, and maybe there are lessons to be learned from it. And I will close it off by saying this, what your guys coverage in this amount of work you put in hasn't made a difference. And I hope you guys truly can realize that one day when you look back at it. Right now, you're too busy caught up in it. I want to mention that, and I also want to mention my thoughts and prayers, condolences everything to all victims in this We talk about Abby and Libby, we talk about Richard Allen, but this far stretches the community, all the people that are associated with them, and all the people that impacts that are listening and involved in the case. So I wanted to take a second to do that. It's carry well said. I feel like this case is left behind so many families, their friends, people who didn't get to see them grow up. It's just mean. It's the enormity of the tribes that he can't be overstated. Yep, and thank you both for all the work you do. I guess I gotta practice my pronouns here. I won't say you both. I will say Anya and Kevin, the lovely Anya and that manly Kevin Greenley him to grow that out. Finally, Yeah, actually it was fine. We went on Alive with Rick Snay. Yeah, and somebody comment this is this is what he thinks. Someone complimented I hadn't chat a chance to shape and so then I said like one comment yeah, and then I later said he maybe you should grow out, you know, a beard. And then he was like, you're only seeing that. Rick Snay's audience want that. I'm like, I don't know, Like, oh, well, I one lighthearted thing in my day. I've been whole. I've been waiting to say that face to face to you for a while. Now, Kevin, so well done. MANU get major points for me. Now he need to get some more gray going in that thing. And then I'll build a crack some more jokes at you. But in the meantime, I'll I'll cut you a break. Thank you both. Make sure you check out the Murder Sheet podcast. It's wherever you listen to podcasts Murder Sheet podcast dot com. I think they can even email you off there. I think that might be set up if I remember correctly, so yeah, I want to contact him. Listen to the podcast and of course they'll be on Court TV, various other news outlets. Again, thank you for your time, dat so much. Jeffrey got the kind of face everybody knows, brother around being fluid, the schools going to your dam and you like it, finding road and you do that's wrong. People got a thankful the dangerous but it inside the best to us take it when they wrong. Like I said to them, someone must do the best weekend. Someone must do the best weekend. Jeff Townsend Media sees you good night, and the question is do I stay here? Will you be back? Are you gonna come back? Will you be back? Are you coming back
