The signing of the Declaration of Independence - Part 2: Buttons' Revenge

What you're gonna do, brother, when Jeff Townsend Media runs wild on you. America Stories. All right, all right, all right, welcome to another episode of America Stories. I'm Jeff Townsend, Luke and Real Jack, not to be confused with the fake Jack, are joining me today as we go on another great America story. And that's what we do here in America Stories. We share American history stories and a light, funhearted, yet educational manner. Sometimes sensual. I don't know why I just said that a little bit. Yeah, sometimes life. It's all life changing though, and we're gathering here today for this glorious moment to continue our last conversation, which was about the birds and the bees, right the vers America. Some would say that the d of I Yeah, we started on that last That sounds like a drunk driving charge. Yeah, the good old Decoration of Independence. We started on part one yesterday and you guys had a vision of what we're going to do on part two today. So last week we basically started out on just some of the essentials of it and the people that were behind signing it, and we even talked about a few individuals that are not as well known involved with it. Today though, we are going to have a conversation about some of the fallout of it and in regards to how the public was thinking about it, not only in America but also in Britain. Is that correct? Yes? Correct, both people who are four and against it and you know just how it was seen. Also, we will talk about a couple more people who signed the declaration that aren't talked about as well. It's just either just because I found their stories kind of interesting one way more so than the other. One of them is kind of hilarious before to talk about it. But yeah, we really got to talk about how the British felt about this immediately. The first British officials though, to actually see the declaration and read it themselves with a copy that they acquired was two brothers from the British Army. One William Howe we had talked about before. He was a general that's now in charge of the British forces, and his brother, Lord Howe, is an admiral of the British Lord Lord. Yeah, he was a nobleman. I'd say he was. Yeah, you gotta be a nobleman, namely the Lord Okay, not the Lord. Lord's there's a difference between the Lord and Lord. So Lord Lord here in America or they were both of them were here, I know obviously Bill William Yeah, they were both at this point in the process of attacking New York and we're just about raised hand Washington his first major loss actually in the next month or so. But they were also intending to get a peace conference set up, and their hope was to get a treaty signed and just end the war by the end of or middle of September. Actually, no, no, no, this isn't actually a joke. Actually September eleventh was supposed to be the day of the peace conference in New York. Never forget. Yeah, it's kind of interesting, right he was the day. Uh so their was to have this peace commerce and then they find out they did sign that declaration and they were just kind of ticked off. But he said, acquired, explain this to me. So we didn't send a copy of this as a British we didn't. We didn't factor some this, we didn't, we didn't. We didn't send this to birdcareer pigeon. Uh No, they had to go and buy from a local printer. So local explain this to me because I'm just a common man here. Local printers just carried a legislative copy of this. Yeah. Well it was such a big deal that every printer throughout the land was making their own copies to distribute, and because people were buying them like hotcakes, so oh okay. Yeah, so they knew this was going to sell, so that people were printing them in every town, and the how brothers bought one and I said, forward, you must see this. Someone did. Yeah. Uh so I mean there's actually a good chance those exact words were said. Yeah. Uh. Anyway, so they were, you know, they were kind of aggravated. They were like, this was going to ruin the peace conference. There was no chance of there being a peace tree at this point, even though there probably wasn't one to begin with. They had an inflated ego. I figured that they, you know, do a solid beating no Washington, then they would probably you know, sweep up and get everyone to agree to the peace commerce. But this sounds like something you would say to an excerpt. You broke up like, hey, I was going to do this. Yeah. I wonder how true that really is. You know, we do know that there was prepared documents for our peace accord and stuff that they had there, but we don't know how well meeting they were in the center, they were you know, planning on asking for too much, knowing they wouldn't give up on it. So they sent a document back home though to the King and everyone in Britain it would take over a month before it got there, though. It wasn't until the end of August before they actually got their copy there, or a copy there. The King read it and his reaction was well, first, he didn't do a public reaction for a while, but his an immediate reaction was one of almost complete posts denial, because he felt that the people in America were one hundred percent on his side and that these warmongering politicians were fanning flames of a battle that no one wanted to fight. In fact, his belief was that people were toasting him and which his health every night in America. He clear he wasn't listening to what people were actually saying. He was just going by what he believed was probably the case. A little arrogant, yeah, a little bit actually. I wonder, you know what, were people kind of correcting him on this, you know, or people would did he because you know, like imagine that it might be kind of difficult to talk to the king like that, where it's like, you know, people actually don't like you very much. Over there could be a few people were telling them that it's not as bad as this, or is not as bad as that's trying to suck too afraid to tell them or something. Maybe, Yeah, that's what I'm kind of thinking, because otherwise have Accurtavey so delusional with everything that happened up to that point. If there's anything portrayed like he is in the Patriot, he's a real asshole, that's true exactly. He was also kind of like it's so we're looking for emotionally distant like he he didn't really process emotions super well from what I've read other people say at some points, and so he was just kind of like just completely oblivious or not even necessarily oblivious, but denial, constant denial over how things were. There was a loyalist contingent though, in the United States or the colonies that signed a Declaration of dependence as a protest. It was signed by over five hundred people in Delaware. Now that seems like a plot for an episode of Always Sunning In Philadelphia. It was a plot of always sutnying in Philadelphia when they did like a in the past episode they showed them signing a decoration of dependence because of it, but it actually happened. Wow, I did not know this. So you say five hundred people in Delaware. Yeah, it was a variety of people. Some were politicians, some were soldiers, and some were farmers. They were really worried. They were really worried that this was going to and a lot of their lives, and they wanted to be sure that the Crown knew they weren't on the side of the revolutionaries. So that's why they signed this document. I don't know if we have a copy of that document pulled up for in our notes here, but but d D the d O D. That's what I was gonna say, is if we can, we definitely need get it. But I did not pick it up. Yeah, time for the keys. I'm gonna beet myself first. Well, he's looking at the King didn't officially address the parliament with a thing about it until late October. By this point they had heard about Washington being beaten in New York and being on the run, so he kind of coupled it together into one address, talking about how these pathetic, in his words, warmongers were leading these people to a tobaccle and that this was going to be terrible for the colonies and he felt he said, he felt bad for the colony, the colonials. He was saying that a treat him almost like they were his children, and how he wished to protect them from these politicians. And but then he went on to say, yo, because how badly they beat Washington, that assuredly that they'll be able to bring everyone back into the fold before too long. I bet there are a lot of people, a lot of high prominent politicians too, behind that thoughts mindset after that defeat, Yeah, there definitely were. There was another guy who brought up a or. He was the first one in England to do like a large response to this way before even the king did. Jeremy Benson. He was a philosopher in England, very popular. He was being into social reform and stuff like that, and was like one of the founders of utilitarianism, which was about you know, finding the best use night for everyone. But he wrote about this and he was calling it like a ridiculous notion brought forward by people of low understanding of how things were to this independence should even be wanted, and he said that no one truly wanted that, they wanted to be part of the empire. And so this is a big piece in there in their newspaper. They were like trying to make it seem like nobody wanted it in the United States. So the general public opinion in Britain because of these articles and later statements by the king was well, the people who are in charge of the colonial army are ridiculous. They're leading these people to their deaths. No one wants it. So it was more like partially feeling bad for the colonials and also feeling a little bit out of view that this is happening. Says like, why would you want to independence when no one else there wants it? So that was the general feeling in England. But it's all completely misled. There are a lot of loyalists, but the majority of Americans were either wanting nothing to do with England or didn't care one way to So it came down to uh much easier to push people towards revolution because only a few people wanted to be desperately wanted to be British emprior citizens like those five hundred the I just I found the h did you get the dependent and the transcript that could be found on the the website of United Empire Loyal Association of Canada. Wow, And it's it's like four paragraphs as long. It's really not as extend as impressive as I was hoping it would be. Definitely not written by you know, Thomas Jefferson. It's kind of just says like, hey, you know, King, we really like the fact that you said, do you want to free us from war? And we are not a part of what the schedule. That's really basically what it says. That's the synopsis. So when you're back in charge, please don't do anything to us. That's kind of the aph. That's pretty much. That's pretty much it. They all signed it. I don't know. It kind of like an early form of an Internet petition. I guess to some degree. One of the things that happened in the colonies though, that was a big influence on public opinion, was the idea that freedom was the right of every human in the declaration, so that led a mass free of slaves, caused the northern colonies to begin renouncing slavery almost entirely within the next year or so, where a lot of them were free in their own slaves, and it wouldn't be very long before they outlawed it in the northern colonies. The Southern colonies, while maintaining their slavery at pretty close to the Saint Louels, the northern half of the Southern colonies had a higher freeze slaver rate than they did. Four went from me one percent of all African slaves being freed to nine percent, which is still not a ton, but it's a considerable increase. And this is all attributed to people reading the declaration and then having changed heart, how they interpreted it, made them change their made him think about it. Yeah, And it's a kind of an interesting start to what will eventually lead to the soul with all these people making this change because of the declaration, and then there are a few bricks being laid for the future of the country and some people will realize that's coming now, and it's really interesting. Looking back, it's like obvious, but you know, at this point, the lot of people would still think there's no chance that slavery is going to go away, but it's being slowly worked towards and without you, and you know, any laws being passed. People just simply have a change their heart reading a document, and that's kind of interesting. Chuck. Yeah, well, well, speaking of that, wasn't there a a one of the people who signed the document who ended up freeing one of his slaves? Yes? Actually that was what was about really leading to next because he is one of my too two signers. No one talks about that one to go over. His name is William Whipple Junior. He's not, as far as really able to find he's not related to Abraham Whipple. Uh pyramaniac extraordinary, But how could he not be the same last name that man? Well, you know it's you know, it's obviously possible, but I think it's one of those things where it's like me, there's I mean, he was probably he's probably is related somewhat distantly though, probably because you know, I had a girl in elementary school that claimed she was related, Like a fellow student claimed she was related to Johnny Applesey. Really, who am I to challenge it? Yeah? Yeah, what are you gonna do? I mean, we could just say this guy is for sure related to Abraham. It's like, you know, we say we're related to Kit Carson distantly, and I almost gonna challenge it, but I'm pretty sure it's true, he said Carson Daily. Uh, maybe he's like, why why not her? William Wibble Jr. And Abraham Whipple likes it, so they have like these It's it's interesting that they're both kind of involved here in this revolution because one of them, uh blows up ships and sends them on fire, and the other the other one signed the declaration. Maybe okay, remember maybe it had been like a budding rivalry of cousins or something, you don't, I don't know, kind of like John and Sam Adams. Yeah, the Whipples meet the Whipples. So this this Whipple would have definitely fixed the lock. Yeah, he was a normal lock fixer. So William Whipple. He had a slave named Prince Whipple. After they had signed the declaration, Prince spoke to him and he said, you know, you're saying that you're fighting for everyone's liberty, and I'm still enslaved to you. He said that he didn't really think about it before then, and it was honestly, he kind of had said he he wrote, and so was writing. He stopped. Think about this. Now, I have been part of this institution of slavery, holding this person captive essentially his whole life. And here I am, I wrote, I signed my name to a documentist that says life, liberty again, shoot happiness for you know, it's for all people. So he did free Prince. But Prince stayed with him. As you say, hold on, you say he did or he didn't? Did he? Are you saying that he didn't? I was so, yeah, he free prints. Prince stayed on as his bodyguard for the rest of the war because William Whipple was a general and uh so he protected him the heat. In fact, in the Washington crossing the Delaware meeting, there is a black man with an oar that is like pushing isolay that is apparently supposed to be Prince Whipple. He was on board that boat with him, because William Whipple was on board that boat Washington as well. I remember that I've got a tattooed on my arm. No, I really I don't remember that. Look up that. That's an interesting fact though, and where is it? Can it be considered a fact? I mean it's I guess it's technically an assumed fact, I guess charitably called. Uh, it's definitely what people believe. William Whipple was there. Prince would have been with him, and there is a black guy on the boat in that in that drawing, and so people have drawn the conclusion of that is Prince being displayed there. You're tripping me out with this prince thing. I'm not gonna lie. Yeah, it's it's like he's not a prince. I think the Prince. I'm also thinking of the Chappelle show skit when Prince slam basketball. Yes, I keep thinking that game blouses. He was original, but later on Prince Whipple would uh marry another Freeze slave that would live a full life. I think he lived with like seventy years old afterwards. Uh. The other guy, though, I want to talk about, is another signer. His name is Button Gwinnett Button Button as a button. He was named after his grandmother Button. This was a common name then. I don't know it well the generations buttons, but it's weird, but it was for a grandmother to him anyway. You know, I've not got a question. Yeah, a good thing. I'm not very named after my girl i'd be named Marie then, yeah, right, I'd be a little button. Not there's anything wrong with Murray, but yeah, not yet. It's not Jet. Yeah, it's not Jet. So but is known for a couple of things. He is for buttons, I'm sure. I'm sorry, he's known for a couple of bigger things of buttons. Okay, sorry, excuse me. So one of the things he's known for is he has a tremendous lack of signatures out there available for people to like, you know, on documents. He's wasn't particularly famous or very high up before he signed the declaration, and he died a year later, so his name was only they believe a total of fifty one documents. So his signature is the most valuable of all the signing members of the decoration because it's so rare to find. So there are there. Actually, here's a little factoid that's not true at all. He used to just draw a picture of a button as a signature. Yet he's got a lot more signatures out there than you realize. Yeah. So, so there are people who go out about and uh, you know, get signatures of this founding fathers, in particularly the signers of the decoration, and it's like a you know, a rich person's game. But buttons is so expensive that the last one that's sold sold for one and a half million dollars. Just called him, but you're just called him buttons? Sorry? How much which was his button worth? How much? Did you say? One and a half million dollars? That's a good button. There's a hell of a button with the perspective. The most expensive bay Ruth baseball sold for three hidred and eighty eight thousand dollars. Wow. A signature of Abraham Lincoln on a letter defending the Emancipation Proclamation went for several or fifty thousand dollars. But to your point, is signature so rare that that I mean something? Yeah? But I think they said that there's only ten that are in private hands. The rest are all by the museums or libraries of Congress, stuff like that, So it's an incredibly rare to find. The other thing Button is known for is being a real bastard. The buttons can be a bastard. His legacy is a tangled web booth. Had I put on a Besh shirt the other day, I couldn't get the buttons on that. This little story I was reading, and I was just like, what the heck this guy sucked. So he's infamous though, yeah, kind of infamous for being kind of an ass and stupid as the old button to button after this. So Button was when he was first coming up as a politician. Didn't make it very far, mostly because he was kind of inept. But he became really popular when he signed the Declaration because he was elected as a representative to be in Congress. And after he signed it, he was like, okay, now we'll become a general in the army. But general buttons. His attention was to get same from you know, we needed a random fight or two out of Georgia and uh and to go forward with that and have a larger and more powerful political career. Well, he was beaten out to be the general by a guy that was kind of his constant rival. His name is Lachlan. His name was Zipper, so much more convenient than a button. Never pass. That would be great, that would be so great. Uh. No, his name was Lachlan Macintosh. He was a pretty decent in general for all respects. And during the Revolutionary War and so he came up and you know, he became more popular, but Button had political clouts still from sign a declaration, and he got re elected, and he was able to also get all of his guys elected in the Georgia political circles. And after he had all all these people on his side, he decided to declare that Lochlan's brother was a traitor to the revolution and had him in prison for life. He had totally fabricated this, and as a Lachlan hater, was really furious. So he also ordered Lochlan, because he was technically his superior, to attack Florida where the British were, knowing that this was technically a suicide mission. Lachlan survived, but it was a tremendous loss for the Georgia military. And when he got back, Lachlan made it abundantly clear that he believed Button was a monster, you know they call him a snake, and was telling everyone how terrible he was. So Button decided he was going to publicly challenge him to a duel, figuring in Lochlan with a buzz off and leave him alone. Lachlan took him up by it and killed him, though yeah, it was a duel. Washington became greatly concerned that buttons underlings were going to murder Lachlan, so he brought him up north out of Georgia, and Lachlan served with distinction at Valley Forge with him. And so that is the end of the Button gwent. He is a painted ass like the top button on the dress shirt. Yeah. Wow. So he challenged this guy to a duel and he lost. Yeah, and then that guy was almost murdered. Did his brother ever get free of enslaved or I mean I imprisoned? No, So I mean, I mean he's a bad Button, so he never it was never rescinded, so he was just in prisoned. It's yeah, really terrible. Uh you know, Button had it coming. It's seems like the power of signing the DA the d of IA it did it. It's a wonder that Uh yeah, I would say it's a wonder that it just didn't have to anybody else. But at the same time, it could just be the Button was just an asshole. It seems like this is a thing that still happens that minus the duel, like and people like get a little bit of power and in politics and they really let it get to power and and and kind of like fame and this kind of they started believing it, believe in their own story. So do you think what Button challenging this duel? He thought he wouldn't accept that what he did. He's like, oh, ship, yeah, he did not believe that he was accepting that. He would just you know, leave him be and then you know he would also look shamed in public eye and then luckily likely Button, what's going to try to become general? What did Washington? What do you think Washington said, Well, Button's gone, we lost, but I bet he did. He's just like, well, there he goes Button. Oh well this says nothing to do with Button. But I do have some kind of sort of interesting I want to talk about also before we move on to questions or anything else that anyone has. They inkstand they used to sign the declaration. They still have that inkstand today. It was and they actually it was made by a master who was friends with Ben Franklin. His name was Philip Singh and he was part of a sort of secret society that Ben Franklin had. It had two different names. One is it was it was called the Junto or the one that I think is a little bit stranger than is the weather incrit Society. It's like a swingers group or no, it was like a men's self help society, So kind of like a swinger script but a little bit that is interesting. Yeah, So like you would just get to know guys that went through things and then you would help each other and also you had exchange business secrets and stuff like a romance. It was a bromance. Yeah. I actually think that at some point in the future we'll want to kind of revisit the various secret societies of America when we're talking about that would be one of them, for sure. What do you think Button's Secret Society would be? Hopefully it's one to learn to not channel people to the duel. I actually, if we really think about it, most people half of the people who are involved with the duels probably regret regret being in part of the duel. Yeah, if they if they live to regret. I guess. Wow, this is such a I didn't expect it to go there. It was a wild ride. First. It started out was just an innocent person being named after the grandmother. No one could tell that story was gonna go. Yeah, you really took us on an emotional roller coaster. There, Luke. I knew that he was going to be an interesting read. When I saw his name and the list of signings, I was like, there's no way a person named Button Gwinnett doesn't have a story that's worth telling. So you were like, read about this, you're legitimately excited. Oh I was. Yeah. Yeah. When I read that, I was like, oh man, I hate this guy, but this is a good story. You're like sla late up at night and you're bead with a book, like a little small light on reading this, just getting excited pretty much. Yeah, Benjamin Button, Benjamin Button, that is crazy. Yeah, well, I mean there's a pretty high risk of alved with challenging somebody to a duel, y'ah, especially a general like you know, he he has used the weapon. That's that's what I was gonna say. So what made mister mister Button, Yeah, this is true. What made mister Button think that he could just go lead an art like lead a militia group. So it was kind of like the thing for people of wealth to do was just to get a a general's what they call assignment, and you would then try to get a simple battle or like a system or senior general like someone like Washington, and try to just get glory by being there. And they assumed, you know, that the tape won't actually be the ones being killed, because the British don't kill officers, especially high up officers, right, And so it was just going to be like, well, at worst I'll lose, and some guys below may will die and then I'm just gonna go out of my life. Make himself look good. Yeah, I actually do have a nurse. William Whipple Jr. So he was, like I said, he was also a general and he was a little more renowned, better general than uh some of the other like like Caesar Rodney was also a general, but he wasn't as good. Well, there was a battle that happened later in the war there hold up and it's like a house that they were just there for the night, and it was it was like a public house, like a bar. Almost they were supposed to be getting The British surrendered the next day. But the British did one last attack on them and they fired annon a mile away and it hits through the house, smashes through a horse, nearly hit William Whipple Junior. And but it hits it's like, uh, his staff aid next to him and blows his leg off. But he was really calse killed and so he was understandably upset right on the button. Yeah, that could have been butt he f died. That's crazy. Can you imagine he said he was sleeping, They were were drinking. They weren't asleep yet they're just chilling and drinking in a fucking cannon ball. Yeah, can'tbell busts the door? Ghosts. I mean that's he went through the horse and then through the door and then through that guy's leg from a mile away. Yeah, is that how far they actually traveled? I don't seems normal. I seem it must be like a mass of gun that magic the magic cannon. Also nobody also have been like up high or something. Depends on what the elevation and crap like that goes. Or it may have just been in the yard, but we don't really know. Yeah, that was at least any better they were drunk anything. We don't know if it was a cannon even. Oh yeah, that's still crazy. Regardless that that'd be a weird thing to be sitting around just and that have and see you. Wow, So those are a couple of the signing members of this whole thing that people really don't talk about very often, and I thought that was interesting, listen learn about them. Oh h the I forgot to mention that the average person in the United States that wasn't a loyalist was very happy about the revolution of the Declaration show of Independence because they saw it as well. Some of the people who are wealthy saw it as well, we can now have our own markets. We will have to be beholden to the British Empire. And the people who were you know, normal means, they were like, well, this is cool, great because now we'll be our own country, won't be the second class system is basically across the ocean from the main country. They also sent a copy of the declaration to France to attempt to begin the process of getting them on our side, and they also sent a copy to the King of Spain. Jack. I think it's at the time of the episode where we get asked questions, yes, it is actually wanted to talk about the ink stand. Yeah, yeah, the sting inkstand. So you're talking like what is said then? Yeah, it's kind of like it's like a whole set, right, It's like a tray. It has us some things I guess would hold the quills, and then there's ink, but it seems there's another piece there. There's there's there's three pieces on this like flatter almost, and I'm curious of what each part of it is like, So there was there was it's a melting pot for sealing wax. I see. Okay, Yeah, so like when you take like a signet ring or something like that you press it into the wax that that holds the wax that they would melt. Yeah, because it's it's a pretty like born eight looking thing. And honestly, I don't even know like how something like this would be possibly made at the time. I guess there would probably molds they poured some parts into. But yeah, it's a it's it's pretty interesting looking and uh yeah, I'm just kind of curious what all those parts were, so I guess. So I guess there's some This is at least one of them probably holds that the ink and then the quill, and then there's the there's also another piece there. I don't know it's in that picture, but it's called a pounce pot, and it was a material or over the parchment to seal it to keep the anti flaking off or the velm from drying out. You know, I'm not I'm not gonna lie. I'm not too interested in the ink. I really can't get off this button thing. I'm just gonna be completely honest. What does he look like? Do we have a picture of this guy? Can this guy? Do you have that? Dick? I don't even know his last name. I just remember his first name, Gwinnett spelled g w I n n e T. Yeah, we got this. This is a button I've ever seen one. Yeah, is he flipping off something? What is that? Yeah, it's his index finger he's holding like a piece of parchment there. She has like a alien looking finger in that pa does And again, what is up with the hands in the coat? With all these pictures, am I and I only count three fingers on that hand and the thumb it's something doesn't look great. It's just like an AI generated and the hands once again in the jacket. Yeah, I was actually kind of curious a little bit about you know now that we're talking, now that we're talking about button duel to the death, his uh, his ours nemesis. When it comes to requesting a duel, especially, like I assume, you know, presumably they're they're all let's say the duels of the death. Is there any like uh taking it back? You know, I take it back? We're like they agree and you're like oh yeah, Like like how do you just have that at work? Like, let me get out the legislative paperwork, let me get out the admin paperwork here, Like what what steps in one must take? First of all when they want to take a duel? Then if they have a change of hearts, what can they do to pressure? And I do believe I have heard of a few duels being like rescinded after you know, like after you challenge someone to a duel and they agree, it can be rescinded if both sides agree forever or reading before. So hold on, hold on, it's so is this like a so you almost sound like a contract is signed? When when when two are going to duel? Well, it kind of is a like a legal thing because if you're in a duel, you can't be charged with murder. So yeah, but like what okay, but like what what defines duel? Like like is there some commitment made right? Like I'm I want to duel you, how can that be distinguished differently from murder, Like it's had to be a public witnesses. There has to be some process here. I believe it had something to do with whether or not it can be proven that someone was besmirching your name in some way, or you could say they were. And so I got a couple of people to duel on YouTube, then on the other podcast. I guess it was a little more accepted that you didn't do that, ever, and if you did, I guess someone could challenge you to a duel. Now you don't have to accept, and you could just say no, and then they'll talk about how you're a coward or whatever. These guys aren't like in the same room. How does one know that one truly accept it? I you know, uh, they usually will do it in writing. So like you you challenge a person in the like a newspaper or something like that, and then I button Glendall Glindall challenge however that the other individual Macintosh computer to any does the the accept question mark. You know what's crazy though, is I I had to look into this a little bit more, but I just I just looked up and I was like, what is the league out. I guess there, I guess I guess there was. They is signed documents and there were witnesses to it before the the actual duel takes place. And apparently, and again I only looked at one source. So but apparently, and uh it's still yeah, you can't fight to the death, but there are as comes out of the fucking duel. Well, I guess someone, but you can in in in Texas and in Washington, you can still do a what's not like mutual combat? Uh resolution, that's okay, where you agree to the outcome of something if you fight each other, it's not attempted murder if it's below the knee. I mean, this is what you're trying to tell me. This doesn't doesn't it doesn't result in serious bodily harm with guns. It's just like a wrestling duel. But it's more like a yeah, it's like some sort of like you know, you agree to some sort of contract and you're like, you know, you won't be charged with assault if you agree to it a advance. It's it sounds like a spiker society that Benjamin Franklin direct. Anyone take my advice on that. But so you're telling me right now, there's a way that I challenge somebody to the duel but yet not cause bodily harm on them. And it's okay in Washington and Texas. Yeah, okay, okay, anyways, this I got to research this more doing the point. You know, I'm just so intrigued about how one ignitiates a duel. Yeah, it's it's an interesting thought and weird. I think, what's his name, but uh, the the author with the white crazy hair, Mark Twain, Mark Twain. Yeah, Mark Twain was challenged to a duel once and I think he got out of it. No, No, the other guy got out of it by being like sticks that day or something like that, and so they just call it off. I mean, I was challenged a duel too, in the Walmart parking lot, but it just didn't seem like it was legally possible. Now that I know this, it's interesting. Anything's on the table. Can you get this fucking guy's picture off the screen? I am so sick to see it. He's is it a terrible big forgot finger is creeping me out? Why is this finger like that? As it dislocated, you don't know, it kind of bends ups. But was button ever in any other sort of duel that we know about. No, chances are you're not in too many duels, right, Like how many Like there's a you're old at ice? Yeah, I wonder how many? Like what the record for never a duel someone's been? Man, that's because you gotta know that, y'all gotta know that a likelyhood of being undefeated forever is can't be too high. I mean, dueling in American politics is that there's just there's so many cases of it. I would least there's at least two. Right, So hold on, explain to me the rules of a duel here. It's like a one shot thing, right, So how does a duel work? Exactly? If you walk me through. It dependens on the rules used and the time period. Sound like Bill Clinton? Yeah, because what the word is is what do you so? Like in France, a lot of times you would have pistols and a saber and uh, if you missed the pistol bullet and didn't kill them, you could then go kill with the saber or attempt to because they might try to kill you two and so like a lot of the US tools though, or like one pistol shot and it was our and then it would sometimes ended like a stalemate when no one died or both died. What happens if no one dies? Do you reload or you just got to? Like you, I agree upon and signed baberwork for upon the third outcome Lloyd, we all lived happily ever after, and neither one of us died. Everything's settled now. I feel like, in my opinion, if it comes down to the and I can't believe we're still talking about this, We're like fifty five minutes on the recording right now. It's an interesting topic. It's just I just can't imagine that you don't go into it thinking that someone's gonna die, Like there's a good chance someone's gonna die. I don't know kind of dueling you're talking about in Texas, you know, cause bodily harm or whatever, but there seems to be a good chance someone's gonna die when you do a duel? Is it nosa common for people to live? I mean I guess so, okay, So a duel do you start off with your backs to each other, then you pull out of pistols fast you can't shoot each other, and you turn around like, well, what what is that. That's what I'm picturing in my head. I mean, that's what I pictured too. I believe that it was at twelve paces. They walked back. They're back to back. They walked twelve paces apart, and they turned and then fired. So whoever walk faster has got an advantage. Uh No, they're counted off. So it's whoever turns around and aims faster as the advantage. So there's usually a third party mediator who counts off the paces and then they say, like, turn, he took eleven steps, not twelve. Yeah, I mean you would be in trouble if you broke a contract. Click that probably get shot. Yeah, what happens if you cheat during a duel. But you know, I actually do think that there are cases of where did she and I think they were charged with murder? So yeah, it's like a see I have like a lawyer. He you know, he thought he took twelve steps. Oh yeah, I mean that's a good point. I mean we have to look up. But if there's a case like that, I would have a hard time counting twelve steps so accurately. If I knew there was a very high chance I was gonna get shot in the next thirty second. Yeah, yeah, I would have to be like, well, you know, just one or two steps slipped my mind. There had to be like a very in the law, like if you're within two steps of we're going too far into this guy head. I was looking up most duels and so like that's a little bit of a rabbit hole. And also it's like do you count everyone's duals or whatever? But me Allen from the Green Mountain Boys, he he would tell us he had the miss duels. It was a samurai in Japan named mea Masasi. He has he killed sixty people on duels. It's a dual legend. Yeah, he was. But if you look up list of duals in the United States that that Wikipedia article, the very first one that's mentioned is Button Gwynet is the probably the worst failure one, you know. Obviously, Andrew Jackson was kind of renowned for being a duellist dualist I love it, yeah, and then dualism. He practiced dualism, both of them. Jackson was the first person to well became the only US president that murdered a man a duel to be elected. It's number he killed, oh man duel, so it wasn't murder. You gotta be careful, Luke. Yeah, incriminating somebody that's legally not able to be incriminated A good point. This is so fascinating. I could talk about these duels all night. In fact, sin as we get off here, I'm going to have to research more. Yeah, we're honestly, I've seen it, and I remember my dad watching these westerns and stuff back at the day really boring once. But if I would have known what I know now, maybe they wouldn't be so boring. You were like, let's see this guy's contract on this duel. Yeah, I want to be like a lawyer that represented duel cases, like they practice the law of dueling. That would be awesome. Wow. I don't really have anything else to say. I just make it off this dueling subject. This is the greatest thing ever. I still think this is a really slippery slope, uh strategy here. I'm not understanding the legality of this. I got to look into it more. I'm not a lawyer, though. Yeah, it seems like something that'd be really hard to charge somebody criminally with. Yeah, I don't know it does, and I don't know it's it is an interesting topic in and of itself, that the true doing in the United States be a cool episode. There's a big debate on that. Now you're going to tell me that the may or may not war pants. I bet button didn't. He sounds like a guy a little button out there. That's what the story didn't tell. He's actually got shot in the button if you know what I mean, Well die He did get shot in the upper thigh and uh he oh yeah, I forgot to mention it took him three days to die, but he died painfully. To mention that he didn't just he suffered. My god, you forgot to mention. Yeah, yeah, I did. Yeah, he got a painful death after it being an asshole. He didn't just die. But but I was misery early. He wasn't like an instant that now, so what is like I can't stop You just got to stop me soon when one one shoe somebody and like afterwards you just walk away or like you just check on the person, like I don't know. There would be third parties there that were like doctors pronounced people dead if they had to, or this way mister Jackson or whoever's in the duel, like I don't. So, like do you think they marked the ground and everything like it was like they did mark a starting violent line what you were supposed to back up to or get ready for it, then then you walk away from it. I wonder if how many incidents are just accidental shootings of witnesses of a duel. That's a good question, like what's going on? Then can you be charged if you shot somebody that wasn't in the duel? I bet like if your bullet went wide and hit someone, Yeah, they went through the local market and hit somebody behind the counter, went crashed into a public house and killing a horse and hit someone in the leg. Will say that that was the buttons bullet that went that was the mile high cannon. Well, so like as like you were saying, what do you like say you walk away leave right? Well what do you do? Ashwartz? Like That's what I'm saying, Like, what I just killed a guy? Who ahole, like just kills him. You had to sign like finished signing paperwork? Probably yeah, yeah, yeah, I guess you probably would. He was signing you just killed a man, And they're like, sir, and you just signed here, here's your autograph. Jor John Hancock. Yeah, they were using that back then. Already here's your button going on this song? Do you so? Do you know if he passed down and he buttons or anything to his family or like, no, it's just doing pistols. I got one more button thing. I got one more button thing. He was like, it was such an interesting story, and so I mentioned it to you in a message on Facebook. But he so. Isaac Asimov, who wrote I Robot in like four hundred other books, wrote a short story called button Button that I didn't make that up. It's actually you didn't write a story called button but I. I gotta instantly check this the button, button button. But I'm sorry to wonder if you're just making things up every week now there's no so the story of buttons in the Twilight Zone episode button Button Zone episode, that would be crazy. I want to watch that. It's a Twilight Zone episode button Button. Let's see what that is. It's the second segment in the twentieth episode of the first season in nineteen eighty five. Huh, A same short story forms basis of the Okay, so, apparently there's a two thousand and ninth thing called the Box that came from this. I guess I don't know. That might be because anything we're talking about it was a different one. Yeah, Button Button by Isaac has them off. It doesn't have any just happens to have the same exact name though. That's kind of interesting. There's a lot of button Button story. How did you spell Isaac's last name as I m O V Okay, I see it now, yep, I see it now. You're not lying. Yeah. So the plot of Button Button is this guy comes up with the ability to go back in time to get items from the past, and he needs money to fund it, and so they come up with the idea to heist a signature from Button Gwennet to sell in the present time. But the problem being is once they bring it to the future, the people who check it secrets of forgery say well, this is only a year old, so it can't possibly be real, So they don't get any money. I spoiled a book from nineteen fifty. But wow, we got to get out of this episode. We're never going to start. It can be alongest episode you've had it because of a fucking button jack. Your last your last chance here? Okay, Well, if you want to follow us on social media. You can follow us on Twitter at America story Pod, which is completely pointless because we do not tweet it, yes, but it is there. We also have our Gmail where you can email us and ask questions or yeah, America Stories Pod at gmail dot com and you can you can find our episodes also on our website, which is americastories dot Us. Also good old contact for him there as well. This is I believe the thirteenth episode. So yeah, like like Jack saying, go to americastories dot us and check out did you say dot com? Do that? I think he said done that well, hopefully is right because I'm gonna tell you the correct one that he did say wrong. It's America Stories US. Yes, the US stands for United States anyways, there where I'm saying too rest of that, we don't know what was said, but americastories dot Us has all the episodes and sometimes Jack put's additional information online, not very often, but when he does, it's always full of hidden gems and stuff and maybe eventually he'll get along to share an old button with you on the website. So yeah, if you enjoyed our conversation today, make sure you check out the previous episodes like I said, Wow, what a doozy today, Luke, you got to start considering these rabbit holes you're you're you're sending us down. It was too much to not do like we had to do it. I still can't get out of Everybody called him buttons, then buttons, buttons, he is a dumbass. Anyway, until next week. I always say next week, and it's never right because it's actually a biweekly podcast. So I will say until until next episode, keep being you, keep being great, and don't beat buttons. You got to kind of face everybody knows ut around there for the wearnoos going at your heir and you like your finding the road and you do that's wrong. People got a thankful the danger of us find it inside. The best of us take care what they want, like sod to them. Some of us. Do you do the best we we can. Some of us do the best we we can. Something. Jeff Townsend media sees you good night, and the question is do I stay here? Will you be back? Are you gonna come back? Will you be back? Are you coming back