The Cheat Sheet: Fury and Forgiveness

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Content warning, this episode includes discussion of murder and violence.

[00:00:04] [SPEAKER_02]: Today on the Cheat Sheet, we're going to be covering a number of cases from as far-flung

[00:00:09] [SPEAKER_02]: locales as New York, Texas, Washington, as well as our own backyard of Indiana.

[00:00:15] [SPEAKER_02]: And a couple of these cases are going to be instances where actually I think the public

[00:00:21] [SPEAKER_02]: could make a difference in possibly getting to a solution. So hopefully, hopefully by spreading the

[00:00:29] [SPEAKER_02]: word about this, we can be doing a bit of help in those specific cases.

[00:00:35] [SPEAKER_01]: My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist.

[00:00:37] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

[00:00:40] [SPEAKER_00]: And this is the Murder Sheet.

[00:00:42] [SPEAKER_00]: We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder

[00:00:47] [SPEAKER_00]: cases. We're the Murder Sheet.

[00:00:51] [SPEAKER_02]: And this is the Cheat Sheet, Fury and Forgiveness.

[00:01:40] [SPEAKER_02]: So this first case comes to us from Suffolk County, New York.

[00:01:44] [SPEAKER_02]: And it's actually directly connected with a case that we've covered

[00:01:49] [SPEAKER_02]: somewhat extensively on this program, which of course is the Long Island serial killer case.

[00:01:54] [SPEAKER_02]: That's a case where a man named Rex Humerman is charged with murdering a number of women

[00:02:00] [SPEAKER_02]: in Long Island and dumping their bodies in Suffolk County.

[00:02:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Now, the thing about this case is, first of all, the investigation took a number of years.

[00:02:13] [SPEAKER_02]: The evidence against Humerman seems to be quite strong.

[00:02:17] [SPEAKER_02]: But lingering mysteries remain because in the area where they were finding these bodies,

[00:02:25] [SPEAKER_02]: a number of bodies were found.

[00:02:27] [SPEAKER_02]: And it's always sparked debate, were there more than one killer using that area as a dump site?

[00:02:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Was it one killer doing everything?

[00:02:38] [SPEAKER_02]: I think a lot of people are leaning towards one killer doing everything at this point,

[00:02:43] [SPEAKER_02]: and I can certainly understand why.

[00:02:47] [SPEAKER_02]: And the sad thing is that not all of the bodies have been identified.

[00:02:52] [SPEAKER_02]: A lot of them have. Some of them have taken a long time to be identified.

[00:02:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Some were identified recently.

[00:02:56] [SPEAKER_02]: But we recently got a press release from Suffolk County authorities

[00:03:02] [SPEAKER_02]: basically asking media to spread the word about this particular victim,

[00:03:07] [SPEAKER_02]: because this person has not been identified yet.

[00:03:11] [SPEAKER_02]: And they refer to this victim as Asian Doe, because the person is of Asian descent.

[00:03:19] [SPEAKER_02]: And the reason I'm using sort of gender neutral language around this is because

[00:03:23] [SPEAKER_02]: it appears that the victim was at least potentially dressed as a female, as a woman.

[00:03:33] [SPEAKER_02]: But they were in fact a biological male.

[00:03:37] [SPEAKER_02]: But it's unclear at this point because we don't know who this is.

[00:03:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Is this a person who might have been transgender?

[00:03:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Is this a person who may have just been inter-crossdressing?

[00:03:47] [SPEAKER_02]: We don't know.

[00:03:48] [SPEAKER_02]: But that's something that kind of the gender here and the presentation may be a bit ambiguous.

[00:03:55] [SPEAKER_02]: So keep that in mind as you're considering this,

[00:03:59] [SPEAKER_02]: because it's just because we don't know the person, we don't know their story.

[00:04:03] [SPEAKER_02]: But they were a biological male who may have identified as female

[00:04:07] [SPEAKER_02]: and in some respect or at least presented as female.

[00:04:11] [SPEAKER_02]: And the Suffolk County authorities actually released

[00:04:15] [SPEAKER_02]: forensic reconstruction images and informational flyers

[00:04:18] [SPEAKER_02]: in English as well as Cantonese, Mandarin, Thai, and Bahasa.

[00:04:22] [SPEAKER_02]: So they're really spreading their nets wide as far as reaching some of these communities

[00:04:30] [SPEAKER_02]: that this person might have come from.

[00:04:33] [SPEAKER_02]: So we will include those flyers in our Facebook group so you can peruse them.

[00:04:40] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm sure we'll be able to find a link for this

[00:04:42] [SPEAKER_02]: we can also link to it in our show notes if that's easier.

[00:04:45] [SPEAKER_02]: And this is the description given by these authorities.

[00:04:51] [SPEAKER_02]: So, quote, on April 4th, 2011,

[00:04:55] [SPEAKER_02]: skeletal remains were recovered on Ocean Parkway, Gilgo Beach, New York.

[00:05:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Victim description, biological male of Asian descent,

[00:05:04] [SPEAKER_02]: likely Southern China, Han Chinese South,

[00:05:08] [SPEAKER_02]: approximately 17 to 23 years old at the time of death,

[00:05:12] [SPEAKER_02]: approximately 5'3 to 5'9 inches tall.

[00:05:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Death occurred at least five years prior to April 4th, 2011.

[00:05:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Clothing recovered from victim.

[00:05:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Chrysanthemum blue ribbed short sleeve shirt with a crew neck,

[00:05:29] [SPEAKER_02]: Raffaella brand shirt, bill blouse, pants, and a bra, all women's clothing.

[00:05:35] [SPEAKER_02]: And they also include images of the labels.

[00:05:38] [SPEAKER_02]: So this is what they're asking for.

[00:05:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Anyone with information regarding this case or the identification of the victim

[00:05:45] [SPEAKER_02]: is asked to contact Crime Stoppers at 1-800-220-TIPS

[00:05:51] [SPEAKER_02]: or via email or mobile app at suffolkpd.org slash alerts slash crime slash stoppers.

[00:05:59] [SPEAKER_02]: We'll include a link in our show notes, that's probably easier.

[00:06:03] [SPEAKER_02]: And if you, you know, those tips can be submitted in any language to be clear

[00:06:08] [SPEAKER_02]: because they have translation services available.

[00:06:11] [SPEAKER_02]: And keep in mind that there is a $2,500 reward from the Suffolk County Crime Stoppers.

[00:06:17] [SPEAKER_02]: They're really looking to identify this victim.

[00:06:19] [SPEAKER_02]: This person deserves to have their name back.

[00:06:22] [SPEAKER_02]: It seems very possible given the modus operandi of the Long Island serial killer

[00:06:29] [SPEAKER_02]: that this person was potentially engaged in some level of sex work.

[00:06:34] [SPEAKER_02]: That's speculation on our parts.

[00:06:36] [SPEAKER_02]: But it seems like a reasonable supposition to at least put out there.

[00:06:41] [SPEAKER_02]: So because sex workers are often marginalized,

[00:06:45] [SPEAKER_02]: it's possible that that could be a reason if this person was on the margins of society

[00:06:51] [SPEAKER_02]: that they have not been identified as of yet.

[00:06:53] [SPEAKER_02]: But it really seems like this team is trying to, you know,

[00:06:58] [SPEAKER_02]: push this and Crime Stoppers is trying to push this to get some sort of identification.

[00:07:01] [SPEAKER_02]: Because, I mean, there's really nothing worse than a doe sort of languishing

[00:07:06] [SPEAKER_02]: without anyone even knowing who this person was.

[00:07:09] [SPEAKER_02]: This was a human being.

[00:07:10] [SPEAKER_02]: They deserve to be identified and to be memorialized.

[00:07:14] [SPEAKER_02]: And so I would just ask you if you are part of any communities that sort of were identified above

[00:07:21] [SPEAKER_02]: or you might know people who are, please spread the word.

[00:07:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Because you just don't know.

[00:07:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Not everyone follows true crime extensively.

[00:07:29] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, you know, they might see the headlines from like the top news stations,

[00:07:33] [SPEAKER_02]: but they're not necessarily in the weeds of some of these cases.

[00:07:36] [SPEAKER_02]: So don't assume we should never assume that everyone's already heard about all of this.

[00:07:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Because, you know, I mean, Kevin and I are pretty into true crime.

[00:07:44] [SPEAKER_02]: And sometimes people come up to us and they're mentioning a case.

[00:07:46] [SPEAKER_02]: And I have no idea what they're talking about.

[00:07:48] [SPEAKER_02]: I've never heard about it.

[00:07:50] [SPEAKER_02]: So let's spread the word about this doe.

[00:07:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Let's try to break those barriers.

[00:07:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Let's try to, you know, figure this out if we can.

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[00:09:39] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, well said.

[00:09:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Let's move on to a case from Texas, Dallas, Texas to be more precise.

[00:09:47] [SPEAKER_00]: And my source for this was Fox 4 News.

[00:09:50] [SPEAKER_00]: I'll quickly give you the basics of this story.

[00:09:55] [SPEAKER_00]: A man named Kevin Sheffield killed two people on separate occasions,

[00:10:01] [SPEAKER_00]: a 65-year-old and a 64-year-old, Joseph Saez and Mohammed Kamara.

[00:10:07] [SPEAKER_00]: I apologize if I mispronounce those names.

[00:10:10] [SPEAKER_00]: And these people just seem to have been killed

[00:10:12] [SPEAKER_00]: as they were just like walking along the street.

[00:10:14] [SPEAKER_00]: The guy just basically shot them for no reason.

[00:10:17] [SPEAKER_00]: We talk about senseless crimes and senseless murders.

[00:10:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Frankly, I think there's really no good reason or no sense to a murder.

[00:10:28] [SPEAKER_00]: But even with that said, this just seems to be bizarre.

[00:10:33] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's difficult to understand other than

[00:10:37] [SPEAKER_00]: this man's, this killer's brain must be wired very differently than ours.

[00:10:43] [SPEAKER_00]: And he was sentenced to two 50-year sentences and will be eligible for parole in 25 years.

[00:10:50] [SPEAKER_00]: And the reason I wanted to talk about this was the story I came across focused on

[00:10:57] [SPEAKER_00]: the actual sentencing hearing where family members, friends of the murder victims

[00:11:07] [SPEAKER_00]: got the chance to confront the man who took the ones they loved from this world

[00:11:13] [SPEAKER_00]: and say what they thought.

[00:11:16] [SPEAKER_00]: And the things they said, understandably very harsh.

[00:11:23] [SPEAKER_00]: I hate you.

[00:11:24] [SPEAKER_00]: I pray you never see daylight again.

[00:11:25] [SPEAKER_00]: I hate you.

[00:11:26] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know what your mind is going through.

[00:11:28] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't even know what type of animal you are, but you didn't have to kill my brother.

[00:11:35] [SPEAKER_00]: That certainly gives you the idea.

[00:11:38] [SPEAKER_00]: One person said, I wish they'd only given you a two-year sentence because I promised

[00:11:42] [SPEAKER_00]: to God I'd blow your effing head off.

[00:11:44] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not going to touch him.

[00:11:46] [SPEAKER_00]: Now I'm gone.

[00:11:48] [SPEAKER_00]: So I think this is interesting for a number of reasons.

[00:11:53] [SPEAKER_00]: One is all throughout the investigative process, all throughout the legal process of a trial,

[00:12:01] [SPEAKER_00]: the people who are most engaged and most involved with the family members don't really get an

[00:12:09] [SPEAKER_00]: opportunity to confront the killer or the alleged killer.

[00:12:15] [SPEAKER_00]: Obviously, very good reasons for that.

[00:12:17] [SPEAKER_00]: But just as obviously they have something to say and they need to have a venue to say it.

[00:12:24] [SPEAKER_00]: And so this procedure gives them that.

[00:12:29] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think it's also a reminder that we tend to think that once a person is found guilty

[00:12:37] [SPEAKER_00]: and sentenced, that's the end of the story.

[00:12:40] [SPEAKER_00]: But when you hear the raw emotion in these people's voices and you read their words,

[00:12:46] [SPEAKER_00]: it's a reminder that the story never ends for them.

[00:12:50] [SPEAKER_00]: For the rest of their lives, there would be this gaping hole where once their loved one was.

[00:12:56] [SPEAKER_00]: And sometimes you think of an emotional injury as being like a physical injury.

[00:13:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, you know, you bump your knee on a table and you get a bruise and a week later it's gone.

[00:13:07] [SPEAKER_00]: That's not how it works when you lose someone to violence.

[00:13:11] [SPEAKER_00]: That wound can stay with you for the rest of your life.

[00:13:14] [SPEAKER_00]: Anya and I have talked to people who have lost people to violence decades earlier.

[00:13:20] [SPEAKER_00]: And when they start talking about it, it is obvious that the pain is so fresh in many ways.

[00:13:26] [SPEAKER_00]: It's like it just happened a day or two earlier.

[00:13:30] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think it's also worth noting, Anya, that you and I have actually attended

[00:13:33] [SPEAKER_00]: one of these sentencing hearings in another case here in Indiana.

[00:13:40] [SPEAKER_00]: And how would you describe it?

[00:13:43] [SPEAKER_00]: How did it make you feel?

[00:13:44] [SPEAKER_02]: It was devastating.

[00:13:47] [SPEAKER_02]: I would say, yeah, we attended the sentencing hearing for the Amanda Blackburn trial for

[00:13:53] [SPEAKER_02]: one of the suspects.

[00:13:55] [SPEAKER_02]: She was killed in a home invasion and by strangers and she was pregnant at the time.

[00:14:04] [SPEAKER_02]: And so the people who confronted one of her killers were talking about,

[00:14:12] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, it was kind of a range because I think it started out with someone,

[00:14:17] [SPEAKER_02]: I believe who was maybe a neighbor who, you know, they had almost been victimized.

[00:14:21] [SPEAKER_02]: Had they been home, maybe the same thing would have happened to them.

[00:14:23] [SPEAKER_00]: I think their house was robbed or something.

[00:14:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Their house was robbed, right.

[00:14:26] [SPEAKER_02]: And so that was someone whose complete sense of safety and sense of being okay

[00:14:31] [SPEAKER_02]: was upended by these people.

[00:14:33] [SPEAKER_02]: And then Amanda's family would speak.

[00:14:37] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think from some of them, there was sort of forgiveness or anguish or different things.

[00:14:44] [SPEAKER_02]: And all of that is valid.

[00:14:45] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, it's like there's no one way to handle this.

[00:14:48] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, if you want to forgive, that's one thing.

[00:14:51] [SPEAKER_02]: If you don't want to forgive and you want to express anger, that's also valid in my view.

[00:14:57] [SPEAKER_02]: And it was just very sad, but it was powerful because it was like,

[00:15:01] [SPEAKER_02]: here are the people who are actually affected.

[00:15:03] [SPEAKER_02]: All of us are just bystanders, right?

[00:15:05] [SPEAKER_02]: Like, you know, even people investigating it, even people involved in the sort of legal process.

[00:15:11] [SPEAKER_02]: But these people actually lost somebody and it sort of forces you to think about that of

[00:15:16] [SPEAKER_02]: how would I feel and what would I do?

[00:15:17] [SPEAKER_02]: What would I say?

[00:15:19] [SPEAKER_02]: How angry would I be?

[00:15:20] [SPEAKER_02]: How upset would I find it within me to forgive someone for doing that?

[00:15:25] [SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, I thought it was incredible.

[00:15:28] [SPEAKER_00]: It must be very empowering for the victims' families to be able to stand up and look

[00:15:36] [SPEAKER_00]: right in the eye of the person who took someone away from them and tell them exactly what they think.

[00:15:43] [SPEAKER_02]: It's funny because I got the sense from your quote where, you know,

[00:15:45] [SPEAKER_02]: somebody was saying like, I'm going to basically shoot you.

[00:15:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Actually, no, it's fine.

[00:15:50] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm gone.

[00:15:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Like, they're almost interrupted and told to get out of there.

[00:15:53] [SPEAKER_02]: I know.

[00:15:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Can you refresh my memory?

[00:15:56] [SPEAKER_02]: When we covered the Randy Small trial, the victim's daughter spoke at that.

[00:16:02] [SPEAKER_02]: That wasn't a sentencing hearing, though, was it?

[00:16:04] [SPEAKER_02]: Or like she was just testifying or?

[00:16:07] [SPEAKER_00]: I remember she was testifying, yeah.

[00:16:08] [SPEAKER_02]: She was testifying.

[00:16:08] [SPEAKER_02]: She went off on the killer, Randy Small, as well, expressed a lot of anger.

[00:16:17] [SPEAKER_02]: I think most people would.

[00:16:18] [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm like, and I think the judge kind of admonished her a little bit to like,

[00:16:22] [SPEAKER_02]: tone it down.

[00:16:23] [SPEAKER_02]: You need to be less emotional.

[00:16:25] [SPEAKER_02]: And I do think, I think this was after he was convicted, I think.

[00:16:30] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't quite remember, but I'm kind of like, I don't know, let her go off.

[00:16:33] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, I mean, I mean, these people have been through the worst thing possible.

[00:16:37] [SPEAKER_02]: They want to yell at the garbage who did this, then I'm fine with that.

[00:16:42] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, I don't really have a problem with it.

[00:16:44] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, prior to conviction, obviously, it's like you don't want to bias a jury.

[00:16:48] [SPEAKER_02]: But post conviction.

[00:16:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Let them say what they need to say, because that's healing for them.

[00:16:55] [SPEAKER_02]: And they didn't ask to be put into this process.

[00:16:59] [SPEAKER_02]: OK, like the person who did this is responsible.

[00:17:02] [SPEAKER_02]: So if their feelings get hurt by it, you know, that's that's the least that everything,

[00:17:08] [SPEAKER_02]: you know, a lot of victims' families say like they feel like oftentimes the justice system

[00:17:11] [SPEAKER_02]: doesn't work for them and they're correct.

[00:17:13] [SPEAKER_02]: It doesn't.

[00:17:14] [SPEAKER_02]: It works for the defendant.

[00:17:15] [SPEAKER_02]: That's how it's supposed to be.

[00:17:16] [SPEAKER_02]: That's how we enshrine our individual liberties and rights in the Constitution.

[00:17:20] [SPEAKER_02]: We can't have it be something where, you know, the victim's family gets to decide and oh,

[00:17:25] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah, they want you know, they want this person torn limb from limb.

[00:17:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[00:17:28] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, it has to be about the defendant.

[00:17:31] [SPEAKER_02]: It has to be biased in favor of their rights.

[00:17:35] [SPEAKER_00]: But yes, because the point of a trial or a legal proceeding is to decide the fate of

[00:17:41] [SPEAKER_00]: the accused person.

[00:17:42] [SPEAKER_00]: And so it is that accused person's rights that must be protected during that process.

[00:17:49] [SPEAKER_00]: And as a side effect of that, maybe victims don't get as much attention or as much power

[00:17:56] [SPEAKER_00]: as they would like or maybe even deserve.

[00:17:59] [SPEAKER_02]: And any cure for that, in my view, would be significantly worse than the issue, than the

[00:18:05] [SPEAKER_02]: disease or whatever, you know, like if you were to fix that, then you could actually

[00:18:10] [SPEAKER_02]: just make it so that a lot of innocent people go to prison or, you know.

[00:18:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.

[00:18:14] [SPEAKER_02]: It's a disaster.

[00:18:15] [SPEAKER_02]: But once we get post conviction, go ahead.

[00:18:18] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I say go ahead.

[00:18:19] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, like I think there should be, there should always be that opportunity to give as

[00:18:25] [SPEAKER_02]: many people who want to speak a chance to speak and a chance to give a piece of their

[00:18:29] [SPEAKER_02]: minds again, whether that's more on the forgiveness side or more on the expressing anger side.

[00:18:34] [SPEAKER_02]: I think that that should be.

[00:18:36] [SPEAKER_00]: Or a combination.

[00:18:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:18:37] [SPEAKER_00]: As I recall the Blackburn hearing, a couple of family members, they were a very religious

[00:18:42] [SPEAKER_00]: family, very much believing in God and Christianity.

[00:18:47] [SPEAKER_00]: And they were trying to live their faith as you would expect.

[00:18:52] [SPEAKER_00]: And so a lot of what they were saying was, as a Christian, I forgive you, but you still

[00:18:58] [SPEAKER_00]: need to be dealt with in the justice system.

[00:19:01] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.

[00:19:01] [SPEAKER_02]: Forgiveness does not mean, I think, somebody like, does not mean that somebody should not

[00:19:05] [SPEAKER_02]: be held accountable for what they did.

[00:19:08] [SPEAKER_02]: It doesn't mean you get a free pass.

[00:19:09] [SPEAKER_02]: It just means that those people are making the very generous decision to choose forgiveness.

[00:19:15] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not even sure if forgiveness is about the person you're forgiving or if it's about

[00:19:22] [SPEAKER_00]: yourself, because I think when you forgive someone, you're letting something go.

[00:19:26] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that ultimately helps you.

[00:19:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I mean, if you're a Christian, though, I mean, it is supposed to be about, you know,

[00:19:33] [SPEAKER_02]: forgive us our trespasses, you know?

[00:19:34] [SPEAKER_02]: And there is an element of extending love to your enemies.

[00:19:39] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, who's a bigger enemy than someone who killed somebody you love?

[00:19:43] [SPEAKER_02]: So I guess it can really depend on the person or what they're going for.

[00:19:47] [SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, I mean, God help those people in Texas.

[00:19:50] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I would have a hard time forgiving someone who hurt you.

[00:19:52] [SPEAKER_02]: I would too.

[00:19:53] [SPEAKER_02]: I know myself, I would have a really hard time with that.

[00:19:58] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if I'd be able to ever get to that point, to be honest.

[00:20:03] [SPEAKER_02]: But I really commend people who can.

[00:20:05] [SPEAKER_02]: But I also commend people who are going to be out there and stating their anger and

[00:20:09] [SPEAKER_02]: how this affected them.

[00:20:11] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, either way, I think it's valid.

[00:20:15] [SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, great, great case find.

[00:20:19] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think we're going to be later covering something that's more on the flip side of that.

[00:20:23] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we were talking a little bit about forgiveness there.

[00:20:25] [SPEAKER_00]: And the reason for that is because of another case that's coming up.

[00:20:29] [SPEAKER_02]: So before we get to that case, let's do an older case from Indiana.

[00:20:33] [SPEAKER_02]: And my sources for this include the website of the Indiana State Police,

[00:20:38] [SPEAKER_02]: as well as access via newspapers.com, the Indianapolis Star, the Indianapolis Times,

[00:20:44] [SPEAKER_02]: the Times Mail and the Pharaoh's Tribune, the Associated Press,

[00:20:51] [SPEAKER_02]: citations from the Spencer Evening World and especially and in particular, the Reporter Times.

[00:20:56] [SPEAKER_02]: So this is about a young man named Brian Haltom.

[00:21:04] [SPEAKER_02]: He's listed in some media reports as being 18.

[00:21:07] [SPEAKER_02]: The ISP website has him at 19.

[00:21:09] [SPEAKER_02]: He's a very young man either way.

[00:21:12] [SPEAKER_02]: And if you've ever been driving north of Spencer, Indiana on Indiana 67,

[00:21:19] [SPEAKER_02]: you know, in years past, I don't know if it's still up there,

[00:21:22] [SPEAKER_02]: but you may have driven past a white cross with a floral wreath

[00:21:25] [SPEAKER_02]: and a picture of a young man on it painted with the words, who shot our son?

[00:21:32] [SPEAKER_02]: And that young man was Brian Edward Haltom.

[00:21:34] [SPEAKER_02]: He was born on Christmas Day in 1977,

[00:21:38] [SPEAKER_02]: lived on a farm with his grandmother and grandfather,

[00:21:40] [SPEAKER_02]: very close with his parents and family.

[00:21:42] [SPEAKER_02]: He had lots of cousins, uncles, aunts.

[00:21:45] [SPEAKER_02]: He was a bit of an outdoorsman himself, a hunter,

[00:21:47] [SPEAKER_02]: had a silly sense of humor and made a lot of friends very easily.

[00:21:52] [SPEAKER_02]: He was not a fighter.

[00:21:56] [SPEAKER_02]: On July 17th, 1996 at 1245 a.m.,

[00:22:02] [SPEAKER_02]: he was shot and killed on the side of the road in darkness.

[00:22:07] [SPEAKER_02]: So he and a passenger named Trevor Powell have been driving on US 231.

[00:22:13] [SPEAKER_02]: They were about like a little bit less than a mile north

[00:22:17] [SPEAKER_02]: of State Road 46 in Spencer, Indiana.

[00:22:20] [SPEAKER_02]: And they were driving, Haltom was driving,

[00:22:23] [SPEAKER_02]: and they were using the vehicle, his Pontiac Trans Am.

[00:22:27] [SPEAKER_02]: And at one point he pulled in front of a foreign car.

[00:22:32] [SPEAKER_02]: That foreign car then pulled in front of him.

[00:22:34] [SPEAKER_02]: Then Haltom pulled forward again, and the other car began tailgating him.

[00:22:40] [SPEAKER_02]: So he pulled over at the intersection of State Road 67 and 231.

[00:22:46] [SPEAKER_02]: This is also about six miles west of the Morgan County line.

[00:22:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Brian got out of the car.

[00:22:54] [SPEAKER_02]: His family says if he did that,

[00:22:57] [SPEAKER_02]: he probably didn't realize that there was any danger here.

[00:22:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Apparently during the drive, words had been exchanged,

[00:23:02] [SPEAKER_02]: but I don't really know how that works or how fast that was going.

[00:23:05] [SPEAKER_02]: But he gets out of the car.

[00:23:07] [SPEAKER_02]: He walks over to the foreign car, which is also pulled over,

[00:23:12] [SPEAKER_02]: and gets on the other driver's side door.

[00:23:16] [SPEAKER_02]: And keep in mind, he's unarmed.

[00:23:18] [SPEAKER_02]: The other driver shoots him once in the chest and then speeds off southbound.

[00:23:26] [SPEAKER_02]: So this is still unsolved.

[00:23:30] [SPEAKER_02]: I'll describe to you what Powell noted about the other driver.

[00:23:35] [SPEAKER_02]: And keep in mind, Powell told police that he didn't recognize this man

[00:23:39] [SPEAKER_02]: and that Brian didn't seem to recognize him either.

[00:23:43] [SPEAKER_02]: And unfortunately, because it was dark out,

[00:23:47] [SPEAKER_02]: Powell's description was not good enough to result in a composite sketch.

[00:23:52] [SPEAKER_02]: But this is what he said.

[00:23:54] [SPEAKER_02]: The other driver was a white man in his 30s.

[00:23:57] [SPEAKER_02]: He had dark hair and a short two-day beard.

[00:24:00] [SPEAKER_02]: He was muscular and wearing a striped shirt.

[00:24:04] [SPEAKER_02]: And he was driving some kind of foreign car, maybe a Toyota.

[00:24:09] [SPEAKER_02]: And it was red or maroon and sort of boxy and sporty were the descriptions.

[00:24:15] [SPEAKER_02]: And this is in 1996.

[00:24:18] [SPEAKER_02]: And so authorities began looking for that driver.

[00:24:21] [SPEAKER_02]: They also wanted to hear from the driver of an older model truck

[00:24:24] [SPEAKER_02]: that was headed north out of Spencer at the time of the shooting.

[00:24:27] [SPEAKER_02]: The family of Brian has said that there was a lot of heavy traffic in the area that night

[00:24:32] [SPEAKER_02]: because people were leaving the Owen County Fair,

[00:24:35] [SPEAKER_02]: and then also factories in the area were letting out their second shift.

[00:24:39] [SPEAKER_02]: But unfortunately, as of very quickly, July 19th, 1996,

[00:24:45] [SPEAKER_02]: in the newspaper, the sheriff's office saying

[00:24:47] [SPEAKER_02]: the shooting occurred at a bad bend, near a bad bend in the road.

[00:24:53] [SPEAKER_02]: And other drivers were very much focused on their driving.

[00:24:57] [SPEAKER_02]: So not as many people saw stuff as perhaps would have happened otherwise

[00:25:00] [SPEAKER_02]: had it happened elsewhere.

[00:25:02] [SPEAKER_02]: The only real evidence in addition to Powell's witness sighting

[00:25:06] [SPEAKER_02]: was the .380 caliber bullet and shell casing used that was believed to come from a semi-auto,

[00:25:18] [SPEAKER_02]: a handgun.

[00:25:20] [SPEAKER_02]: So there was something though with the car.

[00:25:24] [SPEAKER_02]: And this is important to note.

[00:25:30] [SPEAKER_02]: The license plate seemingly came from Morgan County.

[00:25:36] [SPEAKER_02]: And this is where Martinsville is.

[00:25:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Basically, the kind of, I guess, you can tell from the numbers on the plates where it's from.

[00:25:45] [SPEAKER_02]: And this would have been a Morgan County license plate.

[00:25:49] [SPEAKER_02]: And one of the last four digits would have been eight.

[00:25:54] [SPEAKER_02]: So that was something that the witness remembered.

[00:25:59] [SPEAKER_02]: And police then began narrowing the list of suspects from cars that,

[00:26:05] [SPEAKER_02]: had those numbers.

[00:26:07] [SPEAKER_02]: And at one point, they had 300 cars on it.

[00:26:10] [SPEAKER_02]: They were sort of narrowing it down based on people who might fit the description

[00:26:13] [SPEAKER_02]: the witness saw and whatnot, and the car.

[00:26:19] [SPEAKER_02]: But it's still gone unsolved.

[00:26:21] [SPEAKER_02]: So Ed and Lynn Haltom, Brian's parents, they posted signs in 20 areas in Owen County.

[00:26:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Brian's cousins painted the signs with his senior picture on it.

[00:26:32] [SPEAKER_02]: They handed out a thousand bumper stickers.

[00:26:35] [SPEAKER_02]: They were on the news.

[00:26:36] [SPEAKER_02]: People were posting signs in their yards.

[00:26:40] [SPEAKER_02]: They wrote in a letter to the editor, to the Reporter Times,

[00:26:43] [SPEAKER_02]: we know the information is out there, but people are afraid to talk.

[00:26:45] [SPEAKER_02]: If this is the situation, fear, then all the more reason these facts must come out.

[00:26:50] [SPEAKER_02]: In another letter, they wrote, it is an American privilege and right to carry a gun.

[00:26:54] [SPEAKER_02]: It is not an American right to shoot an unarmed kid down in cold-blooded murder.

[00:27:00] [SPEAKER_02]: So I guess, what do you think about that?

[00:27:02] [SPEAKER_02]: And I'll get into some twists at the case.

[00:27:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I'm very curious about the twists.

[00:27:06] [SPEAKER_00]: What happened?

[00:27:09] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, this is what happened.

[00:27:11] [SPEAKER_02]: So a few years after the shooting, it came out that, well, first of all, I should say,

[00:27:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Jim Richardson was this Indiana State Police detective on this case at first.

[00:27:23] [SPEAKER_02]: And then in 1998, the lead detective seemed to be Chris Lewis of the ISP.

[00:27:28] [SPEAKER_02]: And it came out that on that night,

[00:27:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Haltom had been to a man named Keith Flynn's rural Gosport home.

[00:27:37] [SPEAKER_02]: And Flynn was later arrested for trading sex for drugs

[00:27:42] [SPEAKER_02]: with young girls in the Morgan and Owen County areas.

[00:27:47] [SPEAKER_02]: And that he, these were, I'm talking about girls as young as 12.

[00:27:52] [SPEAKER_02]: So he was raping girls.

[00:27:56] [SPEAKER_02]: And some people wondered, could Brian have seen something?

[00:28:01] [SPEAKER_02]: And perhaps that resulted in someone chasing him down.

[00:28:05] [SPEAKER_02]: Now, a sketch of Flynn ran in the Reporter Times.

[00:28:10] [SPEAKER_02]: He's sort of like a pudgy, balding middle-aged man with a mustache.

[00:28:14] [SPEAKER_02]: He doesn't fit the description of the shooter.

[00:28:17] [SPEAKER_02]: And for what it's worth, Detective Lewis made it pretty clear that he didn't think it was

[00:28:22] [SPEAKER_02]: linked at all.

[00:28:23] [SPEAKER_02]: He thought that that might just be a red herring.

[00:28:26] [SPEAKER_02]: So he came from a sketchy environment.

[00:28:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Apparently, kids would ride their ATVs on this guy's property.

[00:28:32] [SPEAKER_02]: So that's probably why Brian was there with some other people.

[00:28:37] [SPEAKER_02]: But Lewis didn't seem to think it was linked, but it was something to note.

[00:28:44] [SPEAKER_02]: And again, so just as to go back to the car thing,

[00:28:48] [SPEAKER_02]: the license plate prefix was likely 55, which again is Morgan County, Martinsville.

[00:28:55] [SPEAKER_02]: One of the last four digits was likely eight.

[00:28:58] [SPEAKER_02]: But there was also something interesting that came up in 1999.

[00:29:04] [SPEAKER_02]: So on July 27th and July 28th of that year, Indiana State Police, Indianapolis Police,

[00:29:10] [SPEAKER_02]: the Department of Natural Resources, as well as the Owen County Sheriff's Office,

[00:29:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Morgan County, a Morgan County deputy and the marshal of Paragon all went to

[00:29:22] [SPEAKER_02]: the Paragon Road bridge over the White River and dove.

[00:29:26] [SPEAKER_02]: And they said they were looking for evidence in Brian's case.

[00:29:29] [SPEAKER_02]: But seemingly, they found nothing.

[00:29:32] [SPEAKER_02]: So a listener recommended that we cover this one.

[00:29:36] [SPEAKER_02]: And thanks very much to that listener, because this is really a case that we

[00:29:40] [SPEAKER_02]: definitely want to raise awareness of.

[00:29:41] [SPEAKER_02]: So we really appreciate you bringing it up to us.

[00:29:43] [SPEAKER_02]: This seems solvable.

[00:29:45] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, so if you happen to know somebody with anger issues or who seems like they could have

[00:29:51] [SPEAKER_02]: done this, or even if they don't seem like they could have done this, who matches this description

[00:29:55] [SPEAKER_02]: and had a similar car back in the 90s, we really strongly encourage you to come forward.

[00:30:01] [SPEAKER_02]: Go to the Indiana State Police, the Bloomington District.

[00:30:05] [SPEAKER_02]: You can call 1-812-332-4411 or 1-800-423-1286.

[00:30:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Get in touch with the post in Bloomington.

[00:30:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Tell them what you know.

[00:30:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Give them the information.

[00:30:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Brian's family really deserves answers.

[00:30:28] [SPEAKER_02]: It seems like this family did everything they could to try to raise awareness and keep

[00:30:31] [SPEAKER_02]: awareness on this case.

[00:30:32] [SPEAKER_02]: It just didn't happen.

[00:30:34] [SPEAKER_02]: Relationships have probably changed.

[00:30:36] [SPEAKER_02]: Things have changed.

[00:30:37] [SPEAKER_02]: It's time for answers.

[00:30:38] [SPEAKER_02]: Please come forward.

[00:30:40] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, very, very well said.

[00:30:43] [SPEAKER_00]: I would like to move on to a case from Washington State, which sort of jumped out at me because

[00:30:50] [SPEAKER_00]: of the earlier case that we talked about down in Texas.

[00:30:54] [SPEAKER_00]: My source for this was thenewstribune.com.

[00:30:58] [SPEAKER_00]: And of course, we'll include a link to the article in our show notes.

[00:31:04] [SPEAKER_00]: This is a case that started decades ago, all the way back in March 1991, when an 18-year-old

[00:31:15] [SPEAKER_00]: man named Dwayne Russell Satterfield with a group of other teenagers, he was 18 years

[00:31:22] [SPEAKER_00]: old at the time, they planned to rob a business called the Jumbo Food Mart.

[00:31:30] [SPEAKER_00]: And as part of their plan to commit this robbery, going in, this is part of their plan is we

[00:31:38] [SPEAKER_00]: are going to kill the person who is at the cash register.

[00:31:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Because if we do that, that eliminates the witness and we will be safe.

[00:31:47] [SPEAKER_00]: And this person they killed was 25-year-old Linda Miller.

[00:31:53] [SPEAKER_00]: And despite their plan, you won't be surprised to hear they were not safe and they were arrested.

[00:31:59] [SPEAKER_00]: And Mr. Satterfield in particular ended up getting convicted of aggravated first degree

[00:32:07] [SPEAKER_00]: murder, which under Washington State law at the time meant that he would get a sentence

[00:32:14] [SPEAKER_00]: of life in prison without parole.

[00:32:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Now, in the meantime, some things happen in Washington State.

[00:32:22] [SPEAKER_00]: There are Washington State Supreme Court decisions indicating that it's no longer

[00:32:30] [SPEAKER_00]: considered constitutional to give those kind of sentences to people of that young of an

[00:32:38] [SPEAKER_00]: age.

[00:32:39] [SPEAKER_00]: And there's also a ruling that gives judges the power basically to go back and resentence

[00:32:45] [SPEAKER_00]: some of the people who got these long sentences.

[00:32:49] [SPEAKER_00]: And so there was a hearing recently where this man's sentence, he served about 33 years,

[00:32:57] [SPEAKER_00]: it's now been changed to time served and he's going to be released.

[00:33:02] [SPEAKER_00]: And one thing very interesting to me about this, well, there's a couple of things, but

[00:33:09] [SPEAKER_00]: maybe the first thing was even a year ago, the victim's daughter, Trista, she was an infant

[00:33:18] [SPEAKER_00]: at the time that her mother was killed.

[00:33:23] [SPEAKER_00]: So she didn't get to grow up with her mother, didn't have a mother to do all the things

[00:33:29] [SPEAKER_00]: that you would want to do with your child.

[00:33:32] [SPEAKER_00]: She didn't have a mother help her with things.

[00:33:34] [SPEAKER_00]: She lost all of this because of this ridiculous, awful, horrifying decision by these teenagers.

[00:33:44] [SPEAKER_00]: She though forgives him.

[00:33:47] [SPEAKER_00]: She forgives him.

[00:33:49] [SPEAKER_00]: And that is amazing to me.

[00:33:55] [SPEAKER_00]: And even Satterfield himself said, quote, I will be eternally grateful and humbled for

[00:34:02] [SPEAKER_00]: her selfless act and compassion.

[00:34:06] [SPEAKER_00]: And it should be noted that the daughter Trista, she gave her blessing to the reduced sentence.

[00:34:14] [SPEAKER_00]: And the other thing that I feel is worth noting about this is that apparently while he has

[00:34:22] [SPEAKER_00]: been incarcerated, Satterfield has really worked to try to improve himself.

[00:34:32] [SPEAKER_00]: He's getting some therapy.

[00:34:36] [SPEAKER_00]: He's teaching people yoga classes.

[00:34:40] [SPEAKER_00]: He's taking correspondence courses.

[00:34:43] [SPEAKER_00]: He's learning new skills that might help him in the job market.

[00:34:49] [SPEAKER_00]: And so he's really apparently been trying to prepare himself for a life outside of prison

[00:34:57] [SPEAKER_00]: where he can be a contributing member of society.

[00:35:01] [SPEAKER_00]: And the people involved are confident that he will be able to make that transition smoothly.

[00:35:10] [SPEAKER_00]: But again, the thing that really is amazing is this woman lost a mother, had a mother

[00:35:17] [SPEAKER_00]: she never knew, and she forgave him.

[00:35:21] [SPEAKER_00]: And I find that amazing.

[00:35:22] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if I could do that.

[00:35:25] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, how did the rest of the family feel, though, I guess would be my question.

[00:35:29] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, that would be my question.

[00:35:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Fair question.

[00:35:32] [SPEAKER_02]: And I don't know.

[00:35:33] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, it's interesting to me.

[00:35:37] [SPEAKER_02]: So Satterfield wasn't the shooter, but he was certainly aware that this was going to

[00:35:45] [SPEAKER_02]: result in a homicide, right?

[00:35:46] [SPEAKER_00]: It was part of the plan.

[00:35:47] [SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[00:35:49] [SPEAKER_02]: And it sounds like this the shooter, a man named Ansel Hofstetter, if I'm reading this

[00:35:59] [SPEAKER_02]: article correctly, that he was released after being resentenced to 26 years to life in 2016.

[00:36:09] [SPEAKER_00]: The person who actually pulled the trigger has been free for about eight years.

[00:36:17] [SPEAKER_02]: And I know that back in at least like 2014, 2013 thereabouts, that the daughter was opposed

[00:36:24] [SPEAKER_02]: to the release of the shooter.

[00:36:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[00:36:27] [SPEAKER_02]: But that happened anyway.

[00:36:29] [SPEAKER_02]: So just adding some wrinkles to this whole thing.

[00:36:32] [SPEAKER_02]: But I think, you know, it's definitely really impressive that this daughter was able to

[00:36:36] [SPEAKER_02]: forgive.

[00:36:37] [SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, obviously that forgiveness may have gone a long way into achieving this

[00:36:41] [SPEAKER_02]: outcome for this person.

[00:36:43] [SPEAKER_02]: So I would certainly hope that they would, you know, not mess up on their on their release

[00:36:50] [SPEAKER_02]: and do more awful things, you know, because this is pretty horrific.

[00:36:55] [SPEAKER_02]: And obviously, obviously, they were very young when it happened.

[00:36:57] [SPEAKER_02]: But, you know, certainly old enough to know better.

[00:37:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:37:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Twenty five year old woman.

[00:37:02] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:37:03] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, it's like, I mean, I say this all the time, you know, teenagers, young people,

[00:37:10] [SPEAKER_02]: impulsive.

[00:37:11] [SPEAKER_02]: Those are the people who are often going to do really horrific crimes.

[00:37:15] [SPEAKER_02]: And there may be some psychological underpinnings there.

[00:37:18] [SPEAKER_02]: There might be brain development and whatnot, but it certainly doesn't remove any responsibility.

[00:37:24] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, I mean, most teenagers are not going around killing people because they realize

[00:37:27] [SPEAKER_02]: it's wrong.

[00:37:29] [SPEAKER_02]: But in this case, you know, hopefully, hopefully this is somebody who has been rehabilitated

[00:37:35] [SPEAKER_02]: and who can kind of rejoin the community.

[00:37:37] [SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, I do appreciate when somebody who does something horrible at least is holding

[00:37:41] [SPEAKER_02]: themselves accountable and admitting that they did it instead of, you know, doing the whole

[00:37:46] [SPEAKER_02]: innocence fraud, you know, dance for years.

[00:37:49] [SPEAKER_02]: So that's that's something to be commended, I suppose.

[00:37:51] [SPEAKER_00]: I agree completely.

[00:37:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.

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[00:39:06] [SPEAKER_00]: If you help our sponsors, you're helping us.

[00:39:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.

[00:39:09] [SPEAKER_00]: And you get some great product in the bargain.

[00:39:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Exactly.

[00:39:14] [SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, Anya, I was thinking.

[00:39:17] [SPEAKER_00]: As I've mentioned before, holidays are coming up and I'm going to pretend that I've gotten a bunch

[00:39:25] [SPEAKER_00]: of emails from people who have indicated that they're nervous about some of these holiday

[00:39:31] [SPEAKER_00]: dinners because there's a lot of political division in this country at this time.

[00:39:36] [SPEAKER_00]: God, where is this going?

[00:39:37] [SPEAKER_00]: And sometimes when there's this political division, getting together with your family,

[00:39:42] [SPEAKER_00]: many of whom might have very different views from yourself, that can lead to awkwardness.

[00:39:48] [SPEAKER_00]: It could lead to hostility.

[00:39:50] [SPEAKER_00]: It could lead to wrecked relationships.

[00:39:52] [SPEAKER_00]: It could be really, really awful.

[00:39:56] [SPEAKER_00]: And so I'm pretending that these people have written to me and asking me for my advice.

[00:40:00] [SPEAKER_00]: And my advice that I would give to these people if they wrote to me

[00:40:03] [SPEAKER_00]: would be try to find something that everyone can agree on.

[00:40:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Because in this great land of ours, there are some commonalities,

[00:40:13] [SPEAKER_00]: some common threads, if you will.

[00:40:15] [SPEAKER_00]: And some of those threads are quite literal because I think one thing that every man,

[00:40:22] [SPEAKER_00]: woman, and child in this great nation can come around and unite on and agree on is that

[00:40:27] [SPEAKER_00]: we all love and appreciate a great T-shirt.

[00:40:30] [SPEAKER_00]: So if you go to your holiday dinners wearing a Murder Street People T-shirt,

[00:40:36] [SPEAKER_00]: I think that's going to quell a lot of the political discussion

[00:40:39] [SPEAKER_00]: and bring families together in the upcoming holiday season.

[00:40:43] [SPEAKER_02]: MADDIE So we can heal the divide in America,

[00:40:45] [SPEAKER_02]: just like you and me, just by making this beautiful T-shirt?

[00:40:49] [SPEAKER_02]: MADDIE Wow.

[00:40:50] [SPEAKER_02]: What gives you that confidence?

[00:40:52] [SPEAKER_00]: DAVID Don't you think that our lives have improved

[00:40:55] [SPEAKER_00]: since we started wearing these T-shirts?

[00:40:57] [SPEAKER_00]: MADDIE Infinitely.

[00:40:59] [SPEAKER_00]: DAVID And I think that could apply to other people as well.

[00:41:01] [SPEAKER_00]: And I want to say a couple weeks ago, also, we had a live event and someone came up to me

[00:41:09] [SPEAKER_00]: and said, you know, Kevin, I bought the T-shirt based on your advice.

[00:41:12] [SPEAKER_00]: It's stylish.

[00:41:14] [SPEAKER_00]: It's flattering.

[00:41:15] [SPEAKER_00]: Get nothing but compliments for it.

[00:41:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Whenever I wear it, people are like throwing rose petals at my feet.

[00:41:22] [SPEAKER_00]: It makes my life so much easier.

[00:41:23] [SPEAKER_00]: She may have said some of those things.

[00:41:25] [SPEAKER_00]: But then she also indicated, you know, the other day, I'm wearing this shirt.

[00:41:30] [SPEAKER_00]: I have a crisis because my glasses get dirty.

[00:41:33] [SPEAKER_00]: And I don't have any of my glasses wipes that you can buy at pharmacies and drugstores across

[00:41:39] [SPEAKER_00]: this great land of ours.

[00:41:40] [SPEAKER_00]: But it occurs to me, the T-shirt, I can use the T-shirt to wipe my glasses.

[00:41:45] [SPEAKER_00]: MADDIE Wow.

[00:41:45] [SPEAKER_00]: DAVID So this shirt has many, many uses.

[00:41:47] [SPEAKER_02]: MADDIE Many innovations.

[00:41:48] [SPEAKER_00]: DAVID Many innovations.

[00:41:49] [SPEAKER_00]: MADDIE It's a very innovative shirt.

[00:41:51] [SPEAKER_00]: DAVID Where can people buy this shirt?

[00:41:53] [SPEAKER_02]: MADDIE Well, isn't it your ad?

[00:41:55] [SPEAKER_02]: So shouldn't you say, well, I guess I'll take over.

[00:41:57] [SPEAKER_00]: DAVID I'm trying to involve you.

[00:41:59] [SPEAKER_00]: MADDIE So you're giving me a little task.

[00:42:01] [SPEAKER_00]: DAVID Because the theme of this ad is how these shirts bring us together.

[00:42:06] [SPEAKER_00]: MADDIE So you're saying we're divided, but it's bringing us together?

[00:42:09] [SPEAKER_00]: DAVID Why not bring you into the ad?

[00:42:11] [SPEAKER_02]: MADDIE Bringing me into the fold.

[00:42:12] [SPEAKER_02]: So it's going to be at murdersheetshop.com.

[00:42:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Go there.

[00:42:17] [SPEAKER_02]: If you join our Patreon, you can also get a code and you'll get free shipping.

[00:42:23] [SPEAKER_00]: DAVID And I'm going to pretend that someone told me that they would be willing to pay

[00:42:26] [SPEAKER_00]: thousands of dollars for these shirts.

[00:42:28] [SPEAKER_00]: MADDIE What?

[00:42:28] [SPEAKER_00]: DAVID We're not charging that.

[00:42:30] [SPEAKER_00]: We're charging a very reasonable price, much less than that.

[00:42:33] [SPEAKER_00]: $30.

[00:42:34] [SPEAKER_00]: MADDIE $35.

[00:42:36] [SPEAKER_00]: DAVID With shipping.

[00:42:37] [SPEAKER_02]: MADDIE Yeah, $5 is for shipping.

[00:42:39] [SPEAKER_02]: It's $30.

[00:42:39] [SPEAKER_00]: DAVID So the shirt itself is...

[00:42:40] [SPEAKER_00]: MADDIE I'm sorry.

[00:42:42] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm sorry.

[00:42:42] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm...

[00:42:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, yeah, the thousands of dollars thing was a little misleading too, sir.

[00:42:46] [SPEAKER_00]: DAVID No, I said I'm sure somebody might think that,

[00:42:49] [SPEAKER_00]: that we could charge that, but we're not.

[00:42:51] [SPEAKER_00]: We're very reasonable.

[00:42:51] [SPEAKER_02]: MADDIE It's worth that though.

[00:42:53] [SPEAKER_00]: DAVID It's worth it.

[00:42:54] [SPEAKER_02]: MADDIE It's value is worth its weight in gold.

[00:42:58] [SPEAKER_00]: DAVID Don't you think that these shirts retain more value than this crypto stuff

[00:43:02] [SPEAKER_00]: that I don't understand?

[00:43:03] [SPEAKER_02]: MADDIE Well, I mean, I don't want to get into a fight with people who are interested

[00:43:06] [SPEAKER_02]: in cryptocurrency, but I don't know.

[00:43:09] [SPEAKER_02]: I think it's a very valuable shirt.

[00:43:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Let's just say that.

[00:43:12] [SPEAKER_00]: DAVID Don't you think that a person, if they were being really savvy, would like buy

[00:43:16] [SPEAKER_00]: like a thousand of these shirts and like salt them away and then after the apocalypse,

[00:43:21] [SPEAKER_00]: you could use them as currency?

[00:43:22] [SPEAKER_02]: MADDIE Start society.

[00:43:25] [SPEAKER_00]: DAVID Wouldn't that be a grand way to restart society?

[00:43:28] [SPEAKER_02]: MADDIE Would it be like a canticle for Leibowitz situation where like somehow like our shirts

[00:43:35] [SPEAKER_02]: become like a symbol of something and we're not even around to see it because we're dead

[00:43:39] [SPEAKER_02]: from the apocalypse?

[00:43:40] [SPEAKER_00]: DAVID Because this might be generations from now long.

[00:43:43] [SPEAKER_00]: MADDIE Yeah.

[00:43:43] [SPEAKER_00]: DAVID This may be our great grandchildren.

[00:43:45] [SPEAKER_00]: MADDIE Jeez.

[00:43:45] [SPEAKER_00]: DAVID I was thinking more of Commandee 29, a Jack Kirby comic book, but I digress.

[00:43:49] [SPEAKER_02]: MADDIE Okay, there you go.

[00:43:50] [SPEAKER_02]: I got to check that one out, I guess.

[00:43:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I think that was a pretty damn good ad, Kevin.

[00:43:57] [SPEAKER_02]: So I congratulate you.

[00:43:58] [SPEAKER_02]: That definitely blew my one last week out of the water in a big way.

[00:44:02] [SPEAKER_00]: DAVID Well, in fairness, that's very easy to do.

[00:44:03] [SPEAKER_02]: MADDIE It is very easy to do.

[00:44:04] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm giving you a compliment!

[00:44:07] [SPEAKER_00]: DAVID Well, I was going to make it more flattering.

[00:44:09] [SPEAKER_02]: MADDIE Graciousness.

[00:44:11] [SPEAKER_02]: Learn it.

[00:44:14] [SPEAKER_02]: You're very confident.

[00:44:15] [SPEAKER_02]: You're very kind of like healing America, Super Bowl ad sort of situation.

[00:44:19] [SPEAKER_02]: So I think should we try to do a Super Bowl ad when that comes?

[00:44:24] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I know that's like months away, but like that would be...

[00:44:27] [SPEAKER_02]: I wonder if we'll still have shirts at that point.

[00:44:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Probably.

[00:44:29] [SPEAKER_00]: DAVID I think actually, don't say that.

[00:44:33] [SPEAKER_00]: The supply we have of shirts is dwindling.

[00:44:36] [SPEAKER_02]: MADDIE Oh, act now!

[00:44:39] [SPEAKER_00]: Get your shirts down!

[00:44:40] [SPEAKER_00]: DAVID We have plenty of shirts.

[00:44:42] [SPEAKER_02]: MADDIE We'll have shirts for years.

[00:44:46] [SPEAKER_00]: DAVID I'll be honest, we've sold...

[00:44:48] [SPEAKER_00]: We've got a certain number of shirts.

[00:44:50] [SPEAKER_00]: We've sold more of them than I expected so far.

[00:44:52] [SPEAKER_02]: MADDIE That is very true.

[00:44:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Sales have been good.

[00:44:54] [SPEAKER_02]: And we appreciate, significantly appreciate everyone who's bought one so far.

[00:44:58] [SPEAKER_02]: You mean a lot to us.

[00:45:00] [SPEAKER_02]: It really...

[00:45:01] [SPEAKER_02]: We hope you like it and we just are really thrilled.

[00:45:04] [SPEAKER_02]: So thank you.

[00:45:04] [SPEAKER_00]: DAVID What do you mean by a Super Bowl ad?

[00:45:05] [SPEAKER_00]: You want to go out and spend thousands of dollars to hire a celebrity?

[00:45:09] [SPEAKER_02]: MADDIE Yeah, get a celebrity in here.

[00:45:11] [SPEAKER_00]: DAVID Do some big budget thing.

[00:45:13] [SPEAKER_02]: MADDIE Let's do it.

[00:45:16] [SPEAKER_02]: DAVID I want to say that's not going to happen.

[00:45:18] [SPEAKER_02]: MADDIE Aw, okay.

[00:45:19] [SPEAKER_00]: DAVID Maybe a podcast celebrity or you mean like a real...

[00:45:22] [SPEAKER_02]: MADDIE I like to dream big.

[00:45:23] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm sorry.

[00:45:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Get it on the TV.

[00:45:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Viewers across America will watch in confusion and horror.

[00:45:31] [SPEAKER_02]: What is this, they'll say.

[00:45:36] [SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, I like it.

[00:45:38] [SPEAKER_02]: Healing divisions.

[00:45:39] [SPEAKER_02]: That's what we need to do.

[00:45:40] [SPEAKER_00]: DAVID That's what we do here at the Murder Sheet.

[00:45:41] [SPEAKER_02]: MADDIE Is it?

[00:45:45] [SPEAKER_00]: DAVID Well, that's what half of us do here at the Murder Sheet.

[00:45:47] [SPEAKER_02]: MADDIE Oh, I start the divisions and then you heal them.

[00:45:49] [SPEAKER_00]: DAVID Yes.

[00:45:51] [SPEAKER_00]: With shirts.

[00:45:52] [SPEAKER_00]: So thank you all so much.

[00:45:54] [SPEAKER_00]: Hope you all have a great weekend.

[00:45:55] [SPEAKER_02]: MADDIE Yeah, thanks everyone.

[00:45:56] [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet.

[00:45:59] [SPEAKER_00]: If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover,

[00:46:02] [SPEAKER_00]: please email us at murdersheet at gmail dot com.

[00:46:08] [SPEAKER_00]: If you have actionable information about an unsolved crime,

[00:46:12] [SPEAKER_00]: please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[00:46:16] [SPEAKER_02]: If you're interested in joining our Patreon,

[00:46:19] [SPEAKER_02]: that's available at www.patreon.com slash murder sheet.

[00:46:26] [SPEAKER_02]: If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests,

[00:46:30] [SPEAKER_02]: you can do so at www.buymeacoffee.com slash murder sheet.

[00:46:37] [SPEAKER_02]: We very much appreciate any support.

[00:46:40] [SPEAKER_00]: DAVID Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee,

[00:46:43] [SPEAKER_00]: who composed the music for the Murder Sheet,

[00:46:45] [SPEAKER_00]: and who you can find on the web at kevintg.com.

[00:46:50] [SPEAKER_02]: MADDIE If you're looking to talk with other listeners about a case we've covered,

[00:46:54] [SPEAKER_02]: you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook.

[00:46:58] [SPEAKER_02]: We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much.

[00:47:04] [SPEAKER_02]: We do try to check our email account,

[00:47:06] [SPEAKER_02]: but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages.

[00:47:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Thanks again for listening.

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