The Cheat Sheet: Joggers and Justice

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_00] I'm Anya and today on The Murder Sheet we're going to be doing two cases from my home state of New York, the Empire State. And we're also going to Colorado and Washington, so a Western-focused journey after our New York jaunt. Is that fair to say, Kevin?

[00:00:18] [SPEAKER_01] Yes. Content warning, discussion of murder, including the murder of children.

[00:00:22] [SPEAKER_00] Yes. Murder and violence, murder of children. And yeah, we're going to get into it. Two cases out of New York City, I believe. I believe we're doing Brooklyn and the Bronx. So where my father's ancestors are from, Brooklyn, and then where my mother is from, the Bronx. So we're combining the Anya Kane heritage.

[00:00:42] [SPEAKER_01] And I just pray to God people are able to listen to this because back in 1960, some scientists, some clever, learned men, put their heads together and concluded that the world would end today, November 13, 2026. Wait, what? On Friday the 13th. So hopefully that prediction won't come true. I don't believe it will.

[00:01:07] [SPEAKER_00] Were these what?

[00:01:09] [SPEAKER_01] You're just now hearing about this. It's shocking news to you.

[00:01:11] [SPEAKER_00] It's breaking news in Murder Sheet studios. Yes.

[00:01:13] [SPEAKER_01] This breaking news from 1960. Yeah. Because a population trends, a population would reach infinity. Oh, yeah. And this would be the day when we're done. We're just completely done.

[00:01:27] [SPEAKER_00] So they were just looking for attention, right? Like that's not scientific.

[00:01:30] [SPEAKER_01] Well, we'll see. If we all wake up on Saturday, if you're listening to this on Saturday, then everything's fine. We're good.

[00:01:37] [SPEAKER_00] They were wrong.

[00:01:38] [SPEAKER_01] Then the scientists made a rare blunder. But yeah, I can show you the Pogo comic strip of the time. They covered it.

[00:01:47] [SPEAKER_00] When I was a kid, it was 2012 because the Mayan calendar ended in 2012.

[00:01:51] [SPEAKER_01] Well, this is it. This is it. This is this for all I know. This may be the last ever cheat sheet. And if you're not listening to this on the day we release it, maybe you never can because maybe we'll all be dead.

[00:02:04] [SPEAKER_00] Wonderful. Charming thoughts to start off our cheat sheet. Is that all you want to say?

[00:02:08] [SPEAKER_01] Well, if we're not dead, please subscribe to our premium. Even if we are, if you think that there's a chance we might die, that'd be a nice final gesture.

[00:02:19] [SPEAKER_00] Nice final gesture. Exactly. Go out with a bang.

[00:02:23] [SPEAKER_01] How how does how does our attractive, brilliant listeners that they wanted to subscribe to one of our premium offerings? How can they even do that?

[00:02:33] [SPEAKER_00] They can go on Patreon or on Apple. And for five dollars a month on both, you can get free ad free episodes. You can get a lot of early episodes. We put a lot of stuff out early. There's stuff the premium folks have heard that you guys don't even know about yet. And in addition to that, you get exclusive episodes to the premium. So it's really fun. It's a great community. You get to go. We do two lives a month and it's been fun to kind of get to know our wonderful premium listeners. So we'd love for you to join the community.

[00:03:02] [SPEAKER_01] If you're interested, you probably should do it now so you can enjoy those episodes before the world ends sometime later today.

[00:03:08] [SPEAKER_00] There you go. It's a no brainer. And we are, you know, we're very appreciative of our premium listeners who make it possible for us to do the show.

[00:03:18] [SPEAKER_01] I'll be thinking of them later today in my in my final moments.

[00:03:22] [SPEAKER_00] Wow, that's really nice. I'm your wife right here and you're thinking of the listeners. Interesting.

[00:03:26] [SPEAKER_01] That's how devoted I am.

[00:03:28] [SPEAKER_00] I will say I is a quick shout out, which is kind of I thought was cool. At least we recently did some breaking news reporting on the murder of Blake and China Dickus. Of course, that is that heinous double homicide from 2006 from Franklin, Indiana and Johnson County. And we reported exclusively that fingerprint evidence was connecting the suspect in that Michael Jerome James, who's facing the murder charges to the crime.

[00:03:56] [SPEAKER_00] And we also reported that we discovered that he had participated in a pornographic film when he was a young man. And we reported that exclusively. And it looks like as of at least the 10th, the Daily Mail actually picked up that story. And it was really kind of cool to see other outlets running with that story. So I guess I just wanted to brag a little bit. Sorry if that's gauche, but let's go prepare for the end of the world. Okay, Kevin.

[00:04:25] [SPEAKER_00] My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist.

[00:04:28] [SPEAKER_01] And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney. And this is the murder sheet. We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews and deep dives into murder cases. We're the murder sheet.

[00:04:40] [SPEAKER_00] And this is the cheat sheet joggers and justice.

[00:05:28] [SPEAKER_01] So on this, our perhaps final cheat sheet, you are going to start us off. You're going to launch the proceedings all the way on the West Coast of our nation, right? In the great state of Washington.

[00:05:42] [SPEAKER_00] That's exactly right. So in Washington, we've had this just tragic case. And thanks to the listener who recommended this one a while ago. And I'm sorry it took us so long to get to, but appreciate you flagging this for us. So in 2021, there was a little girl, a four year old named Oakley Carlson, and she was living in a very troubled environment with her biological parents, her mother, Jordan Bowers, and her father, Andrew Carlson.

[00:06:11] [SPEAKER_00] And they had a number of children. They were a number of times looked into for child endangerment, child neglect. And there was all this stuff. So in 2017, she had been put into foster care over some of these concerns. And then the courts kind of switched it up so that, you know, she was living with this foster family that was going to take care of her. And then they gave her back to her biological parents in 2019.

[00:06:41] [SPEAKER_00] Kevin, when we're looking at the law here, when we're looking at family court and whatnot, and these kind of situations, is it fair to say that oftentimes there is a bias to try to keep families unified?

[00:06:55] [SPEAKER_01] Absolutely.

[00:06:56] [SPEAKER_00] And is that inherently a bad thing?

[00:06:58] [SPEAKER_01] No, because generally speaking, it's probably best for families to stay together. Obviously, we are all aware of some very notorious exceptions to that. But it's a good thing to try to keep a family together.

[00:07:12] [SPEAKER_00] Any type of situation here is actually just going to be super traumatic for a child, but also being taken away from biological parents can be very bad. That in itself is a terrible outcome. So I think the system tends to be biased towards not doing that unless it's absolutely necessary for the child's safety and well-being. And it can be very hard to call that. And we've all we all know the cases where the courts and whatever the local equivalent

[00:07:40] [SPEAKER_00] of the Department of Child Corrections gets it very wrong. They miscalculate and a child dies with abusive or neglectful parents. I mean, sometimes the opposite happens. They go to a foster home where you think they're going to be safe and that doesn't go well either. So. I think it's easy to say, wow, every throw all the social workers in jail. That's easy. It's easy to target them with our anger. I think the more nuanced.

[00:08:09] [SPEAKER_00] Way to look at this is not to say that, oh, this is a you know, it's good outcome when this happened. No, no. It's to say, how can we better detect the signs of true endangerment versus the typical dysfunction that you would see? I don't know what the answer is. I don't know what the answer is. I don't work in this space. And I think there need to be conversations where we avoid horrific situations like this.

[00:08:37] [SPEAKER_00] But I think simply saying, oh, Department of Child Correction bad doesn't really capture how difficult it can be to. I guess, sort out, sort this out. And again, we hear about the cases where it goes wrong. We don't hear about the cases where nothing goes wrong and it actually works out. So, I mean, I'm not defending the authorities here because I think in this case, I don't understand why they would give her back to these people given what happens next.

[00:09:05] [SPEAKER_00] But I am saying that I think it can be complicated. That's all I'm saying. So anyways, she was last seen on February 10th, 2021. Ever since then, any attempts for, you know, social workers or whatnot to get in touch and talk to her and have have not happened. And to this day, there's no body. The Grays Harbor County Sheriff Darren Wallace has said there's no physical evidence in the case. They don't know where she's at.

[00:09:35] [SPEAKER_00] They believe her parents did something to her. And they're very open about that. And meanwhile, the parents, Jordan Bowers and Andrew Carlson, we're going to talk later in this about another couple, I think, that did not participate in the investigation into their daughter's death in that case and disappearance in this case. But this couple did not participate. You know, they're not cooperating with.

[00:10:02] [SPEAKER_00] I mean, Kevin, like when we're talking about parents who are just straight up not in cooperating with an investigation, how do you read that as an attorney?

[00:10:12] [SPEAKER_01] I think it's fair to say that not just attorneys, but most people would probably look on that with a little bit of suspicion because parents typically feel such a level of love and devotion and care for their children, at least in theory, at least in the ideal world that you would imagine they would. Most parents would move heaven and earth to do whatever they could to help police find and prosecute whoever may have harmed their child.

[00:10:41] [SPEAKER_00] I feel like sometimes people like get so in the weeds of every outsized possibility that they kind of forget general truisms. And if anyone's thinking, well, if they think, you know, they know they're innocent, but they're being targeted, I could see them not participating. And like at a certain point, I think that's true. If you've given the police all the information, if you've cooperated as much as possible and they're still going after you to the detriment of all of the leads, I can see at that point saying.

[00:11:10] [SPEAKER_00] We've done what we could and you don't believe us. And I, you know, we have to, you know, like I could see at that point being like, OK, maybe my cooperation hasn't gone anywhere. But I think to unilaterally call that from the beginning is highly suspicious behavior because you would think you'd want in this case your disappeared child back. If you're more concerned about yourself, I think that says something.

[00:11:34] [SPEAKER_01] I think it does, too.

[00:11:34] [SPEAKER_00] In this case, these people are, I guess, you know, impoverished methamphetamine users. So the outcome for them and how they're perceived by society is different from what we're going to talk about later. But I think that's notable. So. These folks, they haven't participated. They've run into legal trouble because they it was found that other children in their care were exposed to methamphetamines. They were convicted on child endangerment charges over that at some point. And they were also.

[00:12:04] [SPEAKER_00] So the mother Bowers, she went to the Washington Correction Center for Women in Gig Harbor because there was a theft conviction, nothing to do with this case. And then she got released in January and then thrown back in because of some credit card fraud charges that also came down. So right now. Police believe, again, the investigators believe that the parents had something to do with it, that they disappeared, this poor little girl.

[00:12:32] [SPEAKER_00] They're offering a reward of one hundred thousand dollars for information that could lead to Oakley's Oakley being found. But I'm just going to say this. I don't think it's very hopeful that this child is alive. There's talk right now about doing a no body prosecution. What can be the challenges, Kevin, for a prosecutor trying to bring a case where the body has not been found?

[00:12:55] [SPEAKER_01] Well, an obvious challenge is if you don't have the body of a murder victim. You not only don't know how the person died, you're not even certain in theory that the person is even dead because for all you know, the defense could say this person who was allegedly dead could just walk in the door anytime. We don't even know they're dead. And you don't know how if they are dead. You don't know how they were killed.

[00:13:23] [SPEAKER_01] You don't have any weapons or any evidence of that nature. It's said that generally speaking, I believe no body prosecutions when they're done have a higher rate of conviction than a typical prosecution.

[00:13:38] [SPEAKER_01] And the reason for that is because these no body prosecutions are so inherently challenging and difficult and have so many pitfalls, most prosecutors don't even bring them unless they have a really incredible case otherwise.

[00:13:57] [SPEAKER_00] There you go. So it kind of self-selects the strongest cases.

[00:14:02] [SPEAKER_01] Yes, sir.

[00:14:02] [SPEAKER_00] So if you have information or if you know someone who has information on this on the outside's chance that, you know, you might know someone involved in this, they can call 360-964-1770 to get the detectives on this case. I really hope this poor little girl is found. It's horrible what happened.

[00:14:22] [SPEAKER_00] And hopefully it can have a start a conversation about what needs to be looked at in order to prevent things like this from happening and from children who might be in a safe situation from being put back into a situation that leads to something so apparently horrific, even though we don't know what happened to her. It seems like whatever, a four-year-old just doesn't go off and start their life over. Something bad happened here.

[00:14:49] [SPEAKER_00] And I hope justice for Oakley is given at some point.

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[00:19:53] [SPEAKER_01] Now we're going to New York.

[00:19:54] [SPEAKER_00] My source for this is PIX11 News, and this is a case that happened October 29, 2026. A 15-year-old named Javits Frimpom was shot while walking to school in the Bronx in the Claremont neighborhood around 9.25 a.m. that morning.

[00:20:16] [SPEAKER_00] Now, what was really upsetting and tragic about this one is that surveillance footage captured Javits sprinting, being chased by people, being chased. He was ultimately shot at East 171st and 3rd Avenue near Crotona Park. And, you know, he ran for his life, but they caught up with him. They shot him. Police said initially that three males were at the scene.

[00:20:41] [SPEAKER_00] They were believed to be between 16 and 18 in age and dressed in black and that they fled the scene after the shooting. So the implication is that they were the ones chasing him and that they were involved. Javits was remembered, you know, so he was actually taken to the hospital by police and he died. He died there and did not recover. So Javits was described as a really sweet and studious kid. He was ambitious, very focused on his homework, very focused on studying.

[00:21:10] [SPEAKER_00] He was a good kid and wanted to, you know, further his education, wanted to possibly become a physician and wanted to possibly serve in our military. Now, his family was relatively new in this country, in the United States. They had emigrated from Ghana in 2025 so that their children could receive an American education and his family. So he was attending Dreamyard Preparatory School as a 10th grader.

[00:21:37] [SPEAKER_00] It is so upsetting and tragic to me that this family made this choice to come here instead of, you know, being welcomed and celebrated for wanting to take their education seriously. Instead, they had their son gunned down in the street after being chased and terrified. I this is the kind of thing just makes me sick. So I've been kind of following this because I mentioned I have family connections to the Bronx. And I just this is something about the story. Like, he just looks like such a sweet kid in his pictures. Like, this is so not right that this happened.

[00:22:07] [SPEAKER_00] There was early talk from his family who have, you know, talked about their experience in the media saying that he may have been being bullied at school. So there was questions of like, OK, is this retaliation from the bullies somehow? Now, it's not clear. What the situation is. All we know is that on November 11th, 2025, a 17 year old was arrested in this crime, Thierno Jalloe.

[00:22:33] [SPEAKER_00] Now, he did not go to the same school as Javits. Does that mean it's unconnected to these stories of bullying? It may mean that it could still be connected if, you know, it's people who know people. I don't know. The motive at this time remains unclear. All we know is that the New York City Police Department, the NYPD Violent Crimes Task Force was the one who got this suspect. So we'll be all looking for things like what can we know about motive? Are there other people involved?

[00:23:04] [SPEAKER_00] And I just really my heart goes out to Javits's family. I'm so sorry this happened. And I hope that they can at least get answers at the very least and accountability from the ones who did this.

[00:23:19] [SPEAKER_01] Absolutely. It's a tragic case.

[00:23:21] [SPEAKER_00] Yes.

[00:23:23] [SPEAKER_01] Well, I guess we will stay in the New York area because there's a case I want to talk about out of the New York area. My source for this was CNN.com. And this is a very sad story as well, as all of these are. This involves a 28-year-old woman named Katie Suarez. She worked at a bank in Brooklyn. A young woman, again, just 28, had her whole life in front of her.

[00:23:52] [SPEAKER_01] She's a person who liked to jog after work. Her parents sometimes expressed concern, but she said, no, I'll be fine. Nothing is going to happen to me. Back on October 30th, just a couple of weeks ago, she leaves the bank that she is employed at. And she is taking a run along the waterfront in Brooklyn.

[00:24:18] [SPEAKER_01] Her parents, her mother and father are waiting for her at a very short distance away from where she's jogging. I believe it was actually even less than a mile. And she calls them at one point and says, I'm very close, less than about a half a mile away. And I should be there in just a few minutes. She does not arrive.

[00:24:43] [SPEAKER_01] They get worried and they start a search for her. Her father finds her underneath a tree collapsed and she is obviously wounded. She's been stabbed in the neck and she is unable to speak.

[00:25:07] [SPEAKER_01] She's rushed to a hospital and unfortunately, she passes away. Now, there is a suspect in the case. It's been an arrest in this case. It is a man named Syed Mohassib. He has an interesting backstory.

[00:25:32] [SPEAKER_01] But before I get to that, I want to mention he's seen on video in the general vicinity of where this crime occurs. He is seen rushing away from this vicinity. He's seen going home and then leaving his residence after this a few minutes later, stripped down to his undergarments. And he's throwing something away.

[00:25:59] [SPEAKER_01] Pretty clearly that what he was throwing away were the clothes he was wearing at the time of this vicious attack. He admitted to police that he, quote, became covered in blood, end quote, but he had not stabbed anyone. And the prosecutors say, quote, he ran home, got rid of the bloody clothes and knife, washed the blood off his hands and tried to clean blood in his apartment, end quote.

[00:26:27] [SPEAKER_01] Now, what is especially disturbing about this? And obviously, everything I've said so far is disturbing is the background of this man. Obviously, he's clearly had some mental health issues over the years. Despite this, he briefly was employed as a police by the police in New York. And he also worked as a teacher's aide.

[00:26:57] [SPEAKER_00] That's terrifying.

[00:26:58] [SPEAKER_01] It is terrifying to think that a person with these sorts of tendencies could be employed in a place where he is going to be coming into contact with children.

[00:27:13] [SPEAKER_00] Or have a gun and be able to have power over others as a police officer.

[00:27:17] [SPEAKER_01] Yes, it is very, very troubling. I don't understand how that happened. His parents acknowledge that he's had some mental health issues over the years. Officials in New York are calling for an investigation about how he came to be in a position of authority working with children.

[00:27:43] [SPEAKER_00] In fairness, I mean, I'm not trying to, in fairness, you don't, like, it sounds like he was dropped from the NYPD because of psychological concerns. But, like, that doesn't mean that you can just involuntarily commit someone because of that. And as for the teaching, I don't know what sort of screenings they do with people. But to a certain extent, we're sort of at the mercy of people unless they start exhibiting, like, really clear mental health challenges.

[00:28:13] [SPEAKER_00] To a certain extent, that is the way things are right now.

[00:28:16] [SPEAKER_01] That is the way things are right now. And maybe there's going to be a tragedy at some point that will make people reassess that and question what screening processes should be used in this case. Also, to be clear, it says he's a teacher's aide. I don't know if that means he was working directly with children or if he was working more behind the scenes, helping the teachers in other ways.

[00:28:44] [SPEAKER_01] That's not entirely clear to me.

[00:28:46] [SPEAKER_00] Either way, it's very scary. And if I were a parent in that school, I would be very upset.

[00:28:51] [SPEAKER_01] Yes, I would be very troubled and very concerned. And meanwhile, I feel so much for all who knew and loved this woman who was so viciously taken from this world for absolutely no reason. All she was doing was just enjoying a jog, trying, I guess, to be healthy and enjoy her life.

[00:29:18] [SPEAKER_01] And how horrifying to think that it was her father who had to find her in that awful position. And it's also very upsetting to me to think at the time this happened, she was so close to safety and so close to being welcomed back into the arms of those who loved her, namely her mother and father.

[00:29:42] [SPEAKER_00] I also think this will raise some interesting questions about mental health because he's actively trying to destroy evidence and get rid of evidence on his way out. I don't care how mentally ill he supposedly is. That is guilty knowledge. That's that's consciousness of guilt. And that goes against the idea that he was so mentally ill that he thought what he was doing was OK. If he knew enough to take those off and get rid of stuff, I hope people recognize the difference. You can be schizophrenic.

[00:30:12] [SPEAKER_00] You can be psychotic for some other reason. And if you are not psychotic in that moment, it doesn't matter. You're still guilty of murder.

[00:30:22] [SPEAKER_01] Yes. Yeah, it does show a sub level of guilty knowledge because if you're truly mentally ill and acting upon impulses and an understanding of the world that is so bizarre, you don't realize you've done something wrong.

[00:30:37] [SPEAKER_00] You'd be like, don't worry, guys, I killed the demon. And people would be like, oh, my gosh, you killed a person like that would be what you'd be looking for. This man does not know right from wrong because he is psychotic, not he's psychotic and also has a rage towards women and wants to, you know. It's just always interesting to me how like some of these cases they target a woman who's like smaller than them. It's always a man and it's always violent and it's always going after a woman. And it's like, yeah, interesting.

[00:31:06] [SPEAKER_00] What an interesting pattern. But I guess it's all mental illness, right?

[00:31:10] [SPEAKER_01] Let me read this quote. Prosecutors say he said that on the night of the incident, he went to the path with a knife because people were coming to kill his family, according to the charging document, end quote. So he does seem to have some mental health issues, but he also seems to have realized what he did was something he needed to cover up. He needed to get rid of this evidence. He needed to get rid of the bloody clothes. He needed to clean the blood. But that shows an awareness.

[00:31:38] [SPEAKER_01] What I've done is wrong. It's going to get me in trouble. I need to take some steps.

[00:31:44] [SPEAKER_00] If you really thought it was self-defense, why would you be trying to cover everything up? Then you did the right thing.

[00:31:47] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. So very, very troubling case. We used to live in Brooklyn, apropos of nothing. But yeah, very sad. Okay, now let's move on to Colorado to discuss a case that we actually covered on this show earlier this week in much more detail than we will cover it in this particular episode. And what I'm going to discuss is something that was widely covered.

[00:32:17] [SPEAKER_01] The article that I decided to use came from, of all places, lamag.com. But it's based on a press conference and some other things that have been widely covered. So this is the JonBenét Ramsey case. As you may or may not know, a brief recap is this girl was killed in her house. She was six years old.

[00:32:44] [SPEAKER_01] Some suspicion fell on her parents, as it always does in a case like this, because you always look at the loved ones first. And in this case, that was even more of a tendency because she was killed in the residence where the parents were at the time. There was some DNA evidence in this case. Again, we covered all this in great detail earlier this week.

[00:33:08] [SPEAKER_01] What you need to know now is the DNA evidence at this point is somewhat ambiguous. It is something that a lot of experts say this isn't really going to prove anything. It's not going to be significant. Other people say, well, it could be significant and whatever.

[00:33:24] [SPEAKER_01] So when this DNA evidence first came out and was widely understood in 2008, the district attorney at the time, she issued a statement saying, guess what, everybody? All of you people who thought that the Ramseys were guilty, you're wrong. They're innocent. Now, that is not typically something a DA does, is it, Anya?

[00:33:53] [SPEAKER_00] No, it's actually totally inappropriate.

[00:33:56] [SPEAKER_01] Totally inappropriate. Whether you think the Ramseys are guilty or whether you think they are innocent, I hope you can agree it is not the position, it is not the role of a district attorney to go around making statements saying someone is innocent of a particular crime.

[00:34:15] [SPEAKER_00] No.

[00:34:16] [SPEAKER_01] A district attorney basically makes statements about who they believe and who they don't believe is responsible for a crime by filing charges or not filing charges.

[00:34:26] [SPEAKER_00] Want to exonerate the Ramseys? Convict somebody else.

[00:34:29] [SPEAKER_01] Yes.

[00:34:30] [SPEAKER_00] Do your job.

[00:34:31] [SPEAKER_01] Yes. And when you can't do that, when you don't have the evidence to file charges, you don't go around closing doors.

[00:34:41] [SPEAKER_00] You're not their personal attorney.

[00:34:43] [SPEAKER_01] You're not closing doors in an investigation. You have to keep all of your options open and consider all possibilities. It is not on you to declare unilaterally, OK, I guess this person is innocent.

[00:34:58] [SPEAKER_00] Mary Lacey made it clear in the interview in this show that she did with Diane Sawyer that she is hopelessly emotionally entangled with the Ramsey family and feels like personally aggrieved on their behalf when people think that they did it. I think she was totally unsuited to this leadership role and exhibited terrible judgment. And I think I think everyone should agree, even if they don't think the Ramseys were involved.

[00:35:21] [SPEAKER_01] So that was the district attorney, Mary Lacey, who did this back in 2008. And again, most people would tell you it is not the role of a district attorney to issue a statement like that. So why do I say all this now?

[00:35:39] [SPEAKER_01] So earlier in the week, the current district attorney of Boulder County, Colorado, Michael Dougherty, he mentions in a press conference that he thought it was wrong of her to do that.

[00:35:55] [SPEAKER_01] To be. I think what he said has been taken out of context by some people who want to make it sound like when he says that it was wrong for her to issue that statement saying they were innocent. They're trying to make it sound like he's making some sort of statement that he believes the Ramseys are, in fact, guilty. To be clear, he is not doing that. He is not saying I think they are innocent. He's not saying I think they are guilty.

[00:36:23] [SPEAKER_01] He is saying it was wrong for Mary Lacey, the district attorney, to issue this proclamation that they were innocent.

[00:36:33] [SPEAKER_00] Would she bend over backward for any other case like that, by the way? Like, let's think about that for a minute.

[00:36:38] [SPEAKER_01] Yes. So all he is saying is she shouldn't have done that. I wouldn't have done that.

[00:36:43] [SPEAKER_00] It's unprofessional.

[00:36:45] [SPEAKER_01] And I think most people would tend to agree with that. Take whatever you feel about this case out of the picture.

[00:36:56] [SPEAKER_00] You should never take anything off the table unless you are convicting someone else.

[00:37:01] [SPEAKER_01] Yes. It serves no purpose. It just muddies the water. So it is being portrayed in the press is that the current guy is saying, oh, they must be guilty. That is not what he is saying. And I think most people who really look at what he said recognize that.

[00:37:20] [SPEAKER_01] What is interesting is that John Ramsey, the father of John Benet, he seems to be going with the idea that this statement was in some way a suggestion that he was guilty. And he told Fox News, quote, after 30 years, if they still think I am guilty, then please file charges and we will settle this in court based on facts and evidence.

[00:37:44] [SPEAKER_01] And quote, surely Mr. Ramsey knows, first of all, that Mr. Dougherty was not saying that John Ramsey or any of the Ramseys was guilty of this crime. That's not what he was saying. And surely Mr. Ramsey knows that no charges are going to be filed against anyone in the case until there is facts and evidence to support it. So I think this is one of those things that was just kind of a tempest in a teacup, as they say.

[00:38:14] [SPEAKER_01] Mr. Dougherty is not saying that he believes John Ramsey or any of the Ramseys are guilty of the crime. All Mr. Dougherty is saying is that this one particular thing a previous district attorney did was wrong. I wouldn't have done that. Most district attorneys wouldn't have done that. The vast, vast majority of district attorneys in this country would not have done that. Mr. Dougherty was not making a determination at this time about the guilt or innocence of any member of the Ramsey family.

[00:38:44] [SPEAKER_01] John Ramsey knows all of that stuff. It feels like he is just doing what he can to try to stir up anger and resentment from his allies against the district attorney in this case. And that is baffling to me for many reasons, one of which is my understanding is that the Ramsey family wants to work with law enforcement and try to encourage them to do DNA testing.

[00:39:14] [SPEAKER_01] If you want to work with them, you don't go out. You don't needlessly attack them. I think he's trying to inflame people against his ostensible allies in the search for truth. I don't think it's helpful. I think he knows what Mr. Dougherty was actually saying. So this is disingenuous in some regard. And he also knows that no one is going to have charges filed against them unless there is, in fact, evidence.

[00:39:41] [SPEAKER_01] And at least at this time, it's hard to imagine what evidence exists that could lead to charges being filed.

[00:39:48] [SPEAKER_00] I really doubt charges will be filed in this case ever. That's my prediction.

[00:39:53] [SPEAKER_01] That's my prediction as well. Hopefully, hopefully, Anya, you and I are wrong.

[00:39:58] [SPEAKER_00] I doubt it. That doesn't mean the truth isn't out there. But charges in this case? No, I don't see it. So are we all done?

[00:40:08] [SPEAKER_01] I think we are done. I think we're going to leave the evergreen state. Is that what they call Colorado, the evergreen state?

[00:40:13] [SPEAKER_00] I have no idea.

[00:40:15] [SPEAKER_01] Well, I'm going to call it the evergreen state.

[00:40:17] [SPEAKER_00] And maybe offend all the Coloradans.

[00:40:19] [SPEAKER_01] And because we're Greenleys.

[00:40:22] [SPEAKER_00] We're evergreen.

[00:40:23] [SPEAKER_01] We're evergreenly.

[00:40:24] [SPEAKER_00] We're evergreenly. That sounds like our weird, like, I don't even know, like, outdoorsy brand. Evergreenly.

[00:40:31] [SPEAKER_01] I'm not an outdoorsy.

[00:40:32] [SPEAKER_00] No, you're not. So I will just say I am doing a really cool event November 19th, 2026 at 7 p.m. At in Franklin, Indiana. If you go to murder sheet slash events. Oh, no, I'm sorry. Murder. I'm messing up my own URL. Murder sheet podcast dot com slash events. And you will get to see the link for that.

[00:41:00] [SPEAKER_00] It's going to be a wonderful talk with the author of Sleuth Hound, Dr. Lindsay Fitzharris, who wrote a really cool book about the real life inspiration behind Sherlock Holmes. Like this guy was basically Sherlock Holmes, but a real life physician who worked with Arthur Conan Doyle, who was also a physician and is really it's just fascinating. It's a great look into that. If you like Sherlock Holmes, you got to come. I don't think they have a lot of tickets left, so I would I would try to scoop those up if you can. But anyways, that's scoop them up. Do it. Anything else?

[00:41:29] [SPEAKER_01] That's why they call you the human scoop.

[00:41:31] [SPEAKER_00] Yes, they do. Anything else?

[00:41:33] [SPEAKER_01] I think that's it.

[00:41:35] [SPEAKER_00] All right. Thanks so much for listening.

[00:41:36] [SPEAKER_01] Thanks so much for listening to the murder sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us at murdersheet at gmail dot com. If you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[00:41:56] [SPEAKER_00] If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com slash murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www.buymeacoffee.com slash murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.

[00:42:20] [SPEAKER_01] Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for The Murder Sheet, and who you can find on the web at kevintg.com.

[00:42:30] [SPEAKER_00] If you're looking to talk with other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience, as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening. We'll see you next time.