Building a large podcast with Jordan Harbinger

[00:00:00] Is podcasting just a hobby or can it be a job?

[00:00:04] Can you even build a big podcast without spending a bunch of money on advertising?

[00:00:09] And when can you buy advertising and have it work?

[00:00:13] This is Podcast Creators, where we get podcasting advice from real podcasters.

[00:00:19] On the show today, we have Jordan Harbinger, host of the Jordan Harbinger Show,

[00:00:24] and we answer all these questions and so much more. gold. And if it's not, I'm just going to call you right out on it. That's fine. That just did. I just don't hold back. Yeah, no problem. So why don't you introduce yourself and your show for people who might live under a rock? Yeah. Jordan Harbinger is my name. I'm the host of the creatively titled Jordan Harbinger show and my podcast or I've been podcasting for 14 years.

[00:01:42] My podcast is one of the more, I guess, well-known shows at this point.

[00:02:47] yourself is generally a bad idea. If I'd had a better name in mind than that, I would have chosen it. But all of the ideas that I had were crap and all of the ideas that I was given by

[00:02:52] other people were worse. So I just went with the Jordan Harbinger Show. The other reason is

[00:02:58] I was splitting off from another well-known podcast that I did for 11 years, which

[00:03:04] isn't really much of a thing anymore. But I was like, how are people going to find me?

[00:04:04] I had been sort of itching to leave that company for a while and it was something I didn't really have the courage to do.

[00:04:08] I was like, oh, I can't do it alone.

[00:04:09] It's gonna be too hard.

[00:04:10] It's gonna be a lot, like how am I gonna do this?

[00:04:13] And that was, well, wasn't correct.

[00:04:16] But a lot of times when you're leaving something,

[00:04:18] when you're in a relationship or when you're leaving a job

[00:04:21] or when you're moving somewhere new,

[00:04:24] you don't necessarily think that you can do it on your own.

[00:04:28] And that was kind year, I was already larger than the other company that I'd left and now we're three and a half years in. And I think we're like five times the size or something in terms of revenue. Yeah. Well, I'm going to ask you specifically about your downloads in a minute, but one thing I wanted to point out,

[00:05:42] because I think context is everything

[00:05:44] when people are looking to learn, right? and all of the things that he was doing in a podcast and then learned how to run the show and eventually sort of like left, you know, over years if you're practicing a skill and the other people you started practicing that skill with aren't going to class anymore, then you surpass them pretty quickly. So in the beginning it was like, oh no, how am I gonna do this on my own? And then it was like, okay, I can do this on my own. And now, you know, ironically,

[00:07:02] those guys for a while after we split,

[00:07:05] they were trying to run the podcast.

[00:07:06] I think maybe they deserve it, you know, candidly.

[00:08:22] And that is hilarious.

[00:08:23] There's a lot of like, oh, you should be

[00:08:24] a better person than that.

[00:08:25] I'm like, really? Why?

[00:08:26] Somebody tried to screw me for years I had people saying, dude, leave the company, leave the show. You bring all of the stuff to this company into the show. And I was like, no, that's a bet. I don't want to be like the Axl Rose guy who like screws everything up.

[00:09:41] I'm not arrogant enough to think I'm

[00:09:43] one bringing the value. Like, thanks for saying that.

[00:09:44] You're just being nice.

[00:09:45] And then after a while you get

[00:09:47] mistreated enough and you're like, but where I am now, would it have worked out as well? Maybe I'd left earlier, couldn't have made it work

[00:11:02] because experienced, not enough sponsors, whatever,

[00:11:04] and then maybe I would have quit.

[00:11:06] You just don't know.

[00:11:07] So you don't want to beat yourself up time or effort or money. It's it's hard. The learning stuff is really hard. So let's talk about the show a little bit. Let's let's talk about where it is today. Right. You're I mean, there's 555 episodes published. You know, you have many more than I'm sure you've dropped off or put in buckets. Yeah, of course. You've done. But you know, your website says 11 million

[00:12:22] downloads a month. Yeah, I mean, it fluctuates, right? It's a nine, 10, 11. Yeah. But you

[00:12:26] put when you're marketing, you put the Europe goes on vacation and it's like, nah. And then December is a little bit low because the last two weeks everyone's off or they're like running around getting gifts for their kids

[00:13:41] and they're waiting in line at the Lego store.

[00:13:43] They're not trying to listen to your show.

[00:13:44] So yeah, there's stuff like that that affects downloads.

[00:13:47] But- I think when you're really niche down small, like you're talking about Afghanistan, that's really gonna be subject to like what's going on in Afghanistan and who's paying attention to what's going on in Afghanistan. But if you are talking about everything, if you're just, hey, I interviewed Howie Mandel and oh hey, Malcolm Gladwell's coming on

[00:15:00] and oh, we have a pimp this week or a former pimp,

[00:15:02] you know, or a T-Pain's on.

[00:15:04] It's like, you know, you just don't get a ton of,

[00:16:05] little research that you probably announced it and, and you know, your show,

[00:16:10] your listeners kind of traveled to you with, you know, to the Jordan Harbinger show. And that gave you a little bit of bump,

[00:16:14] but it sounds like that's not what happened. No, no, that was not what happened.

[00:16:16] So they were really clear. It was like, you're taking the,

[00:16:20] I was supposed to take the show with me when I left the company because they

[00:16:24] couldn't afford to pay for my, my stock, my shares. Sure.

[00:17:23] for me and do social media posts and I

[00:17:32] Immediately saw these like massive spikes because you have let's say of 15% audience overlap with 10 different people if those 10 different people

[00:17:34] Yeah post about this Then literally thousands or tens of thousands of people are gonna be like wait I subscribed to that guy's show what he's gone

[00:17:39] Let me find the new one right now because I'm a fan

[00:17:43] so I went from like 3,000 downloads a day to like

[00:18:43] and host Jimmy Kimmel and we lock Jimmy Kimmel in a basement, we might do a really good job,

[00:18:45] but most people are gonna be like,

[00:18:46] where the hell is Jimmy Kimmel?

[00:18:48] What's going on here?

[00:18:49] You guys are turds.

[00:18:51] Or we're really great, but also where the hell is Jimmy Kimmel?

[00:18:54] So that's what happened.

[00:18:55] Yeah, so how long did it take you to get downloads

[00:18:58] to a number where you thought,

[00:19:00] I can sustain this lifestyle?

[00:19:02] This is doable as my job.

[00:19:05] It took a, oh, like in the beginning

[00:19:07] or after I left the other show? And I say, don't worry, I'll make a good. They're like, well, what are you talking about? How are you gonna make it good? You don't know that you can make it good. And, but podcast one's like, if his ads don't work for, on his show, we'll put them on Adam Carolla. And the advertisers are like, all right, whatever. So that was great. So the advertisers stuck with us. And what was interesting was,

[00:20:20] like three to six months in,

[00:20:22] I was like, okay, lay it on me.

[00:20:24] We've obviously been underperforming.

[00:20:26] You sold them at, you know, 62,000, whatever it was, people that didn't come along, some of them supported your sponsors, but most of them are just casual fans, listeners, whatever, they'll get there whenever they want. So the core group of people that supported you, you know, your 10,000 true fans or whatever, those are the people that really matter because those are the ones that convert and support your sponsors.

[00:21:40] So if you're getting branding ads where it's like,

[00:21:42] yeah, talk about Nike,

[00:21:44] and they're paying you for the impressions,

[00:21:45] yeah, you gotta make up those impressions.

[00:21:47] But if they're just trying to sell mattresses brand new podcaster. Let's say you're working away for a year and maybe you have, let's say 500 downloads an episode. What kind of changes would you make to the show in that case? They don't have your, they don't have podcast one. They don't have your Rolodex of friends, right? It's just, you know, a couple of people in room making a true crime

[00:23:07] podcast to 500 people. If you're an actor or a podcaster, you don't really have that same expectation, or you shouldn't anyways, right? So like Hollywood is full of people, everybody there's folding towels at Equinox, and they're also actors. Every bartender in Hollywood is also an actor, right? There's a reason that they're there, and it's not because they love folding towels. So the same thing with podcasting.

[00:24:22] You know, I didn't start my show to make money.

[00:24:25] I started the show because I was teaching a course,

[00:24:26] and then I was never like, let me make cheap dollars. I was always like, how do I make really good stuff that keeps people being like, wow, I can't believe they made this and it's free. Make as much of that shit as you can.

[00:25:41] You know, free this, free that, work really hard,

[00:25:44] make the product even better than everybody else's stuff.

[00:25:46] If your free stuff is better than the paid stuff Of course, these are kids you're talking to, they don't understand. But like, you wanna make something that people can't believe is free, and the way that you do that sustainably is by getting mattress companies to pay you to do it, right? Or auto insurance companies to pay you to do it. Most people understand that business model. And then you make the ads fun,

[00:27:01] and da-da-da, you turn it into part of the product.

[00:27:03] So always be thinking about the audience.

[00:27:05] You know, always be advocating for them.

[00:27:06] Don't let your guests sell them a ton of work and I'm thinking, okay, what kind of work do I wanna do? I love reading books and talking to smart people. That's what I do now. Could I make an extra million or two or three dollars a year coaching? Yeah. Do I love the idea of doing that? Not really. So for me now, looking at the, you ever hear that like,

[00:28:22] there's like some experiment or whatever,

[00:28:24] or some business school study And he was like, I forget what his point was. It was something to do with health insurance and benefits or something like that. But the point was everybody was like, at that point in their lives, it was like,

[00:29:40] yeah, I want quality of life.

[00:29:42] I don't need that much more than 90 grand a year

[00:29:43] or whatever that half ended up being.

[00:29:47] And science sort of bears that out. pretty much the exact or one, two slight, small steps above the engineer who makes like $94,000 a year in his home all the time and lives in Canton, Ohio, right? You're the same level of- Yeah, yeah. Yeah, you got bigger houses, maybe. But it doesn't make you happier because of the hedonic treadmill,

[00:31:00] which is a whole psychology concept.

[00:31:01] But basically, like, you might think that people

[00:31:04] have more money than you are happier,

[00:31:06] but you're only right up until $90,000 I want to coach and make this extra money. Now I've got to rent venues and there's logistics and there's refunds and there's this and there's that and there's the other thing. And I've got to be on all the time. And it's like, no, thanks all for what? So when I die, leave my kids with $60 million instead of 20, like who cares? Yeah, so maybe we can bring it back down to where an indie podcaster is, right?

[00:32:21] Like let's say they do really want to,

[00:32:25] they have a sports podcast and they really do want to $10,000 a month or $3,000, whatever it is, $3,000 a month. That would do it. Yeah. And you're like, wait, okay, making three grand a month because I do four episodes and I've got this bonus thing and my Patreon is doing this and my, you know, whatever is doing that, I got this merch and that brings in a couple hundred bucks. Cool.

[00:33:40] Now you can sort of say, do I want to keep my job?

[00:33:43] Do I want to get a part-time job that sort of just bolsters things

[00:33:46] or do I want to say and I probably never will be, but it doesn't matter because I'm entertaining enough for my show, but I'm also technical enough to run my own show and I've got enough business sense to negotiate my own contracts. I have a lot of agree that that doesn't hurt. Um, and you know, I also experienced in teaching and coaching so I can look

[00:35:02] through a lot of the psychology material and I'm good at that.

[00:35:05] I'm good at finding guests.

[00:35:06] I'm good at convincing them, uh, done this in the past, I should say. I look at what would I be making now if I stayed at the law firm and I did well? Probably like, well, I won't quote numbers because it doesn't matter, but I would be making a lot of money like a financial attorney would, but I would be working 80 to 120 hours a week.

[00:36:21] I would have a lot of stress.

[00:36:22] I'd be living in Manhattan and dealing with

[00:36:25] a lot of high cost of living. Maybe you've stepped it up and now it's five or six hours of work, but it's not for you added some music, right? You've added some music right you've hired someone to do these other things so like for me when I was creating a show and I Had 30,000 people downloading it I was spending let's say eight hours doing prep now. I have a show let's say

[00:39:02] 230,000 people are downloading it. I'm doing the, it's always like there's a Jordan banner. There better be. Spot something. If you find something where there isn't, I want to know. Yeah. You'll know. I'll send you a screenshot of my banner in the slot. Exactly. Exactly. So is there any way to build a big show without advertising? Yeah, there is.

[00:39:03] I mean, that's, I didn't spend to get where I, I almost said I didn't spend to get where

[00:39:08] I am now. the spice, not the dish, whatever, there's a lot of metaphors in here. But the point is, you can sort of buy your way into something, but it's a lot more effective to slowly build, get a lot of skills, have people who love your stuff, and then when it's like, I tell everyone I know about your show, you're like, well, if you're telling everyone you know, what would happen if I spent $100,000 telling everybody

[00:40:24] that everybody else knows who's gonna take my money? Yeah, it's true. It's funny because I look in chartable, which is where I like check, like gross and rankings. And I was like, oh good, our retention rate, I was like, oh, our retention rate looks kind of rough, like that stuff. And I started talking to friends, I was like, what's your retention rate? And it was a little bit lower. And I was like, okay, I feel good that mine's like at the top of the bracket compared to my friends who have

[00:41:41] good shows. So this is just like a to churn your listeners. Well, I think that is a brilliant way to end this interview. I mean, right to the point, nothing, if not brilliant.

[00:43:01] No, I'm kidding.

[00:43:01] Um, no, thank you.

[00:43:02] It's not that deep, right?

[00:43:04] Like you should be able to go, Oh, the content has to make sure there's a solid show. Yeah. These people quit after four episodes and it took you 12 years to get to this level. Yeah. Yeah. Seven years in, I was like, I think I'm getting good at this. Like, I think I'm getting better at this. And now I look at those episodes from seven years ago and I'm like, oh my God, it's so bad. Yeah. You know?

[00:44:20] It really takes a long time.

[00:44:21] A long time.

[00:44:22] It's a real skill.

[00:44:23] So maybe tell people where they can find you and give them all your calls to action.

[00:44:25] Yeah, sure.

[00:44:26] People probably had enough of me by now. and I feel bad for them. I'm glad that you guys have done that. I do, they're amazing people, and I communicate with all of them well after the show. So that's what's so cool about it, is you get to help people with these hairy problems. For people who don't know what we're talking about, Friday I give advice on the show, people write in. And so I tongue in cheek say, wow, I'm really glad I'm not them. But on the other hand, they're all amazing people

[00:45:40] that are dealing with just some craziness.

[00:45:43] So it's my honor to be able to call lawyer friends

[00:45:47] and call people in the CIA and be like,