Connor & Noah Barthe by Serial Napper

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[00:00:30] Check out the episode description for links to subscribe. Alright, let's get this show started. Begin!

[00:00:37] Hey everyone, my name is Nikki Young and this is serial mapper, an international True Crime podcast. I'm back with another True Crime story to Lily to sleep or perhaps to give you nightmares.

[00:01:08] Tonight's episode features a case that is quite different than the ones that I usually cover. Like many of you, I am a parent, so I have an especially difficult time hearing about the tragic deaths of children.

[00:01:21] I think of my own two little ones and the unspeakable pain that a parent must go through after the loss of their child.

[00:01:29] My story tonight is one that is particularly tragic. Two little boys were killed and so many lives were destroyed over the horrific loss of these adorable kids.

[00:01:42] It's an important story that comes with a reminder and a lesson. Never forget to tell your babies how loved they are, and never become complacent because accidents happen all the time.

[00:01:56] And we only really consider what could have been done differently after it's already too late.

[00:02:02] It was the summer of 2013 in Campbellton, New Brunswick, Canada. Noah and Connor Barth who were four and six years old, they had spent the day having a total blast with family friends at a farm.

[00:02:15] That evening they had a sleepover at their best friend's house, which was located just above an exotic pet store that his father owned.

[00:02:24] Not all of the animals were kept downstairs in the store. Jean-Claude Savois owned a 12 foot long African rock python, which was kept in a glass enclosure in the apartment.

[00:02:36] Somehow during the night, this python escaped through an air duct. The 100 pound snake broke through the ceiling right above where the little boys were sleeping in the living room.

[00:02:48] The following morning at around 6.30am, Savois would walk into the living room to a horrifying scene. The two little boys they had been killed, apparently crushed to death by the python.

[00:03:03] Their family friends and the community at large were devastated over the loss of these two very loved children, while the python owner was charged with criminal negligence.

[00:03:14] He would be found not guilty, surprising some and relieving others. There are no charges that could ever bring back these two incredible little boys, but there is a lesson here in responsible pet ownership and speaking up when you see that something's wrong.

[00:03:31] So, let's jump right in. Noah and Connor Barth were two of the sweetest little boys that you could ever meet.

[00:03:39] Living their short lives with their mother in Campbellton, New Brunswick, Canada, they made a lasting impression on everyone who was lucky enough to know them.

[00:03:47] Connor was the older overprotective brother at just 6 years old. He's been described as wise beyond his years, known for his huge bear hugs, his dimples and a smile that was larger than life. He only saw the best in others.

[00:04:05] He was known to love animals of all shapes and sizes, creatures big and small, and he wasn't afraid of handling any of them.

[00:04:13] Little brother Noah who was just 4 years old has been described as being much quieter and introspective compared to his big brother.

[00:04:22] He loved playing dress up and making silly faces to make others laugh. When he grew up, he wanted to be a professional basketball player, big shoes to fill at just 4 years old.

[00:04:35] All this to say, these were two very healthy, happy and loved little boys. Close family friend Leah remembers her time with them fondly.

[00:04:47] I remember babysitting the boys often, like if Mandy had anything to do outside, whether it was shopping for Christmas presents or birthday presents without them knowing what it was. Their mother was very reliable. She cared a great deal about them.

[00:05:02] These boys would steal anyone's heart with their purity, their kindness and good manners. It was rare, like I said for either of them to complain or be in trouble they were true, honest, respectful little boys.

[00:05:18] I fell deeply in love with the precious ones that we had. As Mandy once told me, they loved you and you loved them.

[00:05:27] They were the, like I said, the kindest two little boys I'd ever met. They both have very different but similar personalities. They both have hearts of gold and wanted to make anyone and everyone smile.

[00:05:43] For Valentine's Day, they were my Valentine's. Both of them and they got me the sweetest present I'd ever gotten. Mandy took them shopping at the dollar store and they picked out a bunch of stuff they knew I would love.

[00:05:56] They shared love for their favorite shows, like Paw Patrol and a video game called Skylanders. This little platform when you put the little characters on it and then you play the video game they love that game.

[00:06:12] I wrote a couple Facebook posts on the birthdays and I wrote in them of sure you're playing up there with Skylanders because it was one of their favorite games.

[00:06:23] They loved to snuggle like snuggle bugs all the time. I would describe Connor as like first most a lover, like he wrote poems and cards and he was the eldest and he always had like a love interest.

[00:06:44] He was really humorous and he knew how to make anyone laugh. I have so many pictures of him doing goofy stuff. He took his role as the eldest as like a serious role. He loved taking care of others. He loved taking care of his brother Noah and their best friend that lived next door and anyone else he could take care of.

[00:07:08] If he could do something to help you, he was there. Noah was younger and a bit more reserved timid. I remember taking me a while to gain his trust. He was so intelligent and driven and also had the special sensitive side like he loved his little girl which was a little plush that I have a coffee of somewhere.

[00:07:38] It's a little like flush on a snowboard with these big eyes and it's pink and purple and white and called it his little girl and he never went anywhere without his little girl. I met them as codlers and like watching them grow into who they were was really really special.

[00:07:57] Noah and Connor's mother and father were separated and there was a custody arrangement in place. They were supposed to spend the week with their mom and then every other weekend with their dad but it wasn't unusual for plans with their father to kind of fall apart meaning they would end up spending most weekends with their mom.

[00:08:16] On the weekend of August 4th 2013 Noah and Connor were supposed to be staying with their dad that weekend but he was away on a holiday so in a cruel twist of fate they again stayed with their mom.

[00:08:30] But the boys had the chance to spend their day doing something that they absolutely loved playing with animals at a local farm.

[00:08:38] The farm was owned by the father of a man named Jean-Cloud Subois who I will refer to as JC from here on out.

[00:08:46] JC had a son who was around the same age as Noah who was four and because they were practically neighbors they spent a lot of time together, lots of play dates and sleepovers including this outing at the farm.

[00:09:00] The three young boys they had a blast swimming and enjoying a barbecue and playing with the farm animals.

[00:09:07] They were able to play with llamas, goats and horses that even had a chance to go for a tractor ride with JC it was a great day.

[00:09:17] That evening the fun would continue with a boy sleepover. Noah and Connor would spend the night at JC's apartment so that they could have a sleepover with his son like they often did.

[00:09:29] JC lived right behind Noah and Connor's house and he was really good friends with their mother Mandy so the families spent a ton of time together.

[00:09:39] To JC Noah and Connor were practically like sons to him. He loved those little boys much like his own.

[00:09:47] And the three boys they were over the moon excited to be able to finish off their amazing day with this sleepover.

[00:09:54] The apartment was located directly above an exotic pet shop that was owned by JC which was called Reptile Ocean.

[00:10:02] The shop was home to many fish, several varieties of snakes and lizards and there were even a few crocodiles.

[00:10:10] It was a well-known spot within the city of Camelton.

[00:10:14] In past years local schools would even visit Reptile Ocean for their field trips and there were group tours where people could come in learn about the animals and even have the opportunity to touch them and play with them.

[00:10:28] At one point Reptile Ocean was listed as a zoo and they would charge admission but now it was just a pet shop where anyone could come in and look at the animals for free.

[00:10:40] It was a space that was enjoyed by many reptile lovers in the community including Noah and Connor who had even previously assisted JC with cleaning out some of the enclosures.

[00:10:51] JC and his son lived in the apartment right above the store. It was here that he would keep his personal collection of animals not for sale.

[00:11:00] JC had been obsessed with reptiles since he was a little child so he had many, the ones in the shop down below were for sale and the ones that he kept upstairs in his apartment they were his own.

[00:11:13] That night he set up the three little boys including Noah, Connor and his own son with a mattress in the living room where they would sleep as they had done many times before.

[00:11:24] It was around midnight when the boys finally calmed down from the excitement and fell asleep.

[00:11:30] JC was sleeping in his bedroom in the next room.

[00:11:34] At some point during the night his son left the mattress in the living room and then snuck into his dad's bed for snuggles as he was known to do.

[00:11:44] The apartment was still but just a few hours later something else began to stir.

[00:11:51] It wasn't Noah, Connor, JC or his son but a 12 foot long python that weighed over 100 pounds.

[00:12:01] As a side note the African rock python is one of the five largest snake species in the whole world so these are massive creatures.

[00:12:10] This particular snake was housed just a few yards away from where Noah and Connor were sleeping on the mattress in the living room.

[00:12:18] The way that this enclosure has been described is as a tall large enclosure made of a combination of wood, fiberglass and epoxy.

[00:12:28] The top it had a vent that linked to the ventilation system.

[00:12:32] However, that ventilation pipe in the ceiling directly above the enclosure it had a cap on it that was not properly secured.

[00:12:40] This python slithered its way up and into the ventilation shaft where it proceeded to move through the ceiling.

[00:12:48] With this heavy snake being around 100 pounds the ceiling collapsed under its weight and the python felt right on top of where the two little boys were still sleeping.

[00:12:59] But the commotion wasn't loud enough to wake JC who was still sleeping in the next room with his son.

[00:13:06] He didn't hear anything or know that anything was wrong until the following morning at around 6.30 a.m when he went into the living room to check on the boys.

[00:13:17] When he first walked in the room was dark and he thought that Noah and Connor were still sleeping because their eyes were closed.

[00:13:25] Then he noticed that there was a hole in the living room ceiling right above the boys.

[00:13:31] When he turned on the light to investigate the full horror of what had happened during the night was revealed.

[00:13:39] Without getting too graphic here because it's not necessary, Noah and Connor had been suffocated by the snake which was now missing from its enclosure.

[00:13:48] They had also been repeatedly bitten by the snake.

[00:13:51] It was a horrific scene and the python like I said it was still missing.

[00:13:56] JC ran to Noah and Connor's mother's house which was located just behind the apartment building.

[00:14:03] This was around 6.49 a.m when Mandy heard her longtime friend and neighbor pounding on her door screaming, oh my god your two kids are dead.

[00:14:14] When the paramedics arrived they checked over the boys but it was too late. Noah and Connor had been killed by the python.

[00:14:23] Leo recalled the events that day when she learned what had happened to the two boys.

[00:14:28] I remember my mother waking me up that morning kind of in a panic and telling me that the boys were dead.

[00:14:37] And I remember being like what?

[00:14:40] And at this time I had moved back to my mother's like a 20 minute drive away from Hamilton which was like not very far you know.

[00:14:49] And I had been seeing the boys less like I had been hanging out less since I moved away and I didn't have a vehicle then.

[00:14:58] And I opened my phone and then I had like a few voice mills from Mandy and she told me the exact same thing as my mother told me in shaky panic words like I could tell she had just gotten up walking up

[00:15:18] to this you know I think everybody woke up to this tragedy like it wasn't just.

[00:15:25] You know it was kind of shocking you know when you wake up you're a little bit in a days you're a little bit out of it you know when you first wake up it seems like a dream you know and I remember going straight away I remember making my mother drive me there to her house and.

[00:15:41] It took me three hours to get under the yellow tape to go into the house I had to have like Mandy's mother come out and get me because they wouldn't let me in.

[00:15:54] And I remember sitting in the house and we were like a lot of people and we were just waiting for them to be done interviewing Mandy so we could talk to her and figure out what was happening and what was going on at that point nobody really knew.

[00:16:10] What was going on you know it was confusing for everybody and there was like this strange air in that house and I I remember at some point there was two sets of stairs in the house and I went to the back set upstairs and I just said Mandy I'm here you know I want you don't know that I'm that I'm here.

[00:16:35] She asked me to come up and I and I remember sitting with her for part of the interview with the investigator and not very long since most of it had happened before I got there but it was a shock.

[00:16:53] The whole thing was really terrible like I have that memory of that day grave like engraved into my mind it was easily the worst day of my life or the second worst day.

[00:17:10] I think the worst day was their funeral Mandy was really strong really strong and she really loved her boys and she wanted to do them justice and she stayed strong for them through this.

[00:17:24] You're listening to an episode of serial napper on true crime by indie drop in we're going to take a quick break.

[00:17:32] And now back to this episode of serial napper.

[00:17:36] Thankfully JC was able to find the large snake before it caused any more damage or hurt anyone else.

[00:17:44] One of the first officers on scene was RCMP Constable Eric Milett he would later speak of how shocked he was by the snake's sheer power when JC picked the snake up it quickly coiled around his arm as he attempted to put it back in its enclosure.

[00:18:02] Once it was returned Constable Milett recalled how the python almost immediately appeared to try to get out of its enclosure once again it stood straight up in the air attempting to reach the opening of the vent in the ceiling again.

[00:18:16] All this to say this snake was aggressive the community was horrified to hear that this happened that these two wonderful little boys with the cutest smiles had been killed by this snake that was owned by someone who was pretty well known by the snake.

[00:18:31] It was pretty well known by locals as being somewhat of an expert on reptiles.

[00:18:36] Many residents had visited reptile ocean with their own children to look at the snakes and other reptiles that JC kept in his shop.

[00:18:45] There was a lot of shock and horror but mostly just sadness for Noah and Connor's family and even for JC who was a long time family friend.

[00:18:58] An autopsy would be conducted on both boys and the results listed as fixation as the cause of their deaths.

[00:19:05] Although both had multiple puncture wounds as a result of the snake biting them, the snake did not attempt to eat them.

[00:19:12] Although initially many people struggled with the idea that a snake was actually capable of killing two boys while an adult slept in the next room, that is exactly what experts believed had happened.

[00:19:26] The python was so large that it likely coiled around both of the children at once.

[00:19:33] Still experts say that this was not typical behavior for an African rock python.

[00:19:39] These kinds of snakes they don't recognize their prey visually instead they use scent.

[00:19:47] Unfortunately this was just one of several factors that contributed to the deaths of Connor and Noah.

[00:19:54] Before the sleepover where they were killed, they had been playing at that farm with the animals.

[00:20:00] Animals that are typically used to feed snakes just like this African rock python like rabbits.

[00:20:06] The boys likely smelled just like the animals that these snakes eat so the snake it believed them to be food.

[00:20:15] While this is really rare, this is not the first time that a human has been killed by this particular breed of snake.

[00:20:22] In 2002, a 10 year old boy from Durban South Africa was killed and eaten by a native African rock python.

[00:20:30] In 1999 in Illinois another three year old little boy was killed by a pet African rock python after it had escaped its enclosure.

[00:20:40] Now African rock pythons they were not allowed a new brunswick in 2013 unless the owner had a specific permit.

[00:20:48] As it turned out, JC did not have one and many people wanted him to be charged for his role in this snake attack.

[00:20:56] But this situation was even more complicated than that.

[00:21:00] While JC loved reptiles and had a large collection of them in his shop and his apartment, he didn't purchase that particular python himself.

[00:21:11] Over a decade before the attack a new brunswick wildlife agency had confiscated this snake from an neglectful owner and actually gave it to JC to take care of.

[00:21:24] JC reluctantly agreed to take care of the snake despite the fact that he didn't have the proper paperwork.

[00:21:30] So though he wasn't technically supposed to have this breed of snake, there were government agencies who facilitated his possession of the python.

[00:21:40] And I think that's really important to note.

[00:21:42] JC would say quote, I didn't even want the snake but I didn't want to see it euthanized.

[00:21:49] Although the snake attack that killed Connor and Noah appeared to be an accident, a criminal investigation was launched.

[00:21:57] RCMP spoke with experts, friends and witnesses to find out exactly how this could have happened.

[00:22:04] While the investigation progressed, Noah and Connor were laid to rest.

[00:22:09] Nearly a thousand people gathered for their funeral service.

[00:22:13] The boys were so close to one another that they were buried in the same tiny blue casket.

[00:22:19] During the eulogy it was said quote, boys oh boys we loved those boys.

[00:22:25] If people all over the world are feeling even a fraction of what we felt over the almost seven years of knowing the boys inspired, lucky, blessed, hopeful, then our hearts are full.

[00:22:38] The boys are continuing to change people, help people and heal people's hearts including ours.

[00:22:45] And this couldn't be any more spot on.

[00:22:48] I think it's really important we say their names when we talk about them and we remember them the truly kind boys they were.

[00:22:57] They had so much empathy and so much love to give.

[00:23:01] And I want to share that with people they brought thanks to my life that I couldn't even have imagined of having you know for a while.

[00:23:12] I saw them as my own children and we were so close we worked together every day.

[00:23:19] Like I took care of them you know when Mandy wasn't able to and it was like a great responsibility.

[00:23:28] I felt proud of that and I feel like they give me strength to start things like they give me strength to want to do things, to want to better myself, to want to be a better person.

[00:23:41] And I think it's important to say their names and to tell other people what happened to them so that it doesn't happen to any other kid out there ever again.

[00:23:54] Any other person out there ever again.

[00:23:57] This is a tragedy that fully could have been prevented and it's unimaginable that the people who lost their lives in this tragedy were these two innocent.

[00:24:10] Like they were so young they had no malice in their body only knew was love and care they.

[00:24:22] They were so kind they were like I can't say enough how exemplary they were they were well raised.

[00:24:31] Mandy did an incredible job at raising them.

[00:24:36] As the months passed and the community continued to try to heal from this there would be three independent RCMP reviews of the investigation into the deaths of Connor and Noah.

[00:24:48] The first two officers who reviewed the case file suggested that no charges be brought forward against the snake owner JC.

[00:24:56] But the third officer who reviewed the evidence disagreed he spent more than seven months reviewing witness statements photos and expert testimony.

[00:25:07] And he believed that there was enough evidence to move forward with charging JC Savois with criminal negligence.

[00:25:14] The case would go to trial with an 11 person jury deciding JC's fate.

[00:25:20] There were three specific pieces that the crown had to prove in order for the jury to convict the snake owner of criminal negligence causing death.

[00:25:29] Number one, they had to prove that JC quote as the only adult in his residence that night had a duty to protect the brothers and that he failed that duty.

[00:25:40] Number two, that he quote showed wanton and reckless disregard for the lives and safety of the boys.

[00:25:46] And number three, that his failure to take quote reasonably appropriate measures to care for or to protect Connor and Noah Barth contributed significantly to their death.

[00:25:57] The prosecution alleged that several instances of negligence contributed to the snake getting out and then ultimately killing the two little boys.

[00:26:06] It was revealed that JC kept the African rock python in an enclosure that was just yards away from where the boys slept despite knowing that the snake was indeed aggressive.

[00:26:18] He along with volunteers who helped to care for the animals, they had a difficult time feeding this particular snake because of its threatening behavior.

[00:26:28] They had to use extreme caution. There was one reptile expert who took to the stand to say that the snake was quote vicious and very nervous around people.

[00:26:39] It wasn't a snake that was used to being handled by humans and extreme caution needed to be utilized.

[00:26:46] And as it turned out, this was not the first time that this snake tried to escape through that ceiling vent, the exact same way that it did on the day that it killed Noah and Connor.

[00:26:57] According to one of the reptile stores volunteers, she remembered JC telling her just two weeks prior to the sleepover that he actually caught the snake attempting to escape through the ventilation.

[00:27:10] He was sitting in his living room and he looked up to find the snake stuck in the vent because it had just eaten.

[00:27:18] It was too thick around to actually fit through so it was stuck on the day that Noah and Connor were killed.

[00:27:25] An autopsy of the snake revealed that it hadn't eaten in over 24 hours, meaning that it was much smaller at the time and therefore it was able to fit through the vent this time around.

[00:27:36] The reptile stores volunteer, she placed the cover of the vent back up but she also told JC that he still needed to screw it on so that it was secure which unfortunately he didn't do.

[00:27:49] Still, his lawyer argued that he had no idea the snake could fit through the vent because it had in fact become stuck the last time that it tried to escape.

[00:27:58] So fixing the ventilation opening, it wasn't really a necessity to him.

[00:28:04] With this knowledge, the prosecution claimed that JC, an expert reptile handler, he should have taken extra precautions to ensure that the python was properly secured in its enclosure.

[00:28:16] An expert from the Toronto Zoo, he would testify that their snake enclosures have double doors with any openings securely caged so that the snake can't get out.

[00:28:27] He also stated that the enclosure for this particular snake was not very conductive to the well-being of the snake.

[00:28:35] It lacked items that would stimulate the python like rocks and branches, meaning the snake was born.

[00:28:43] But the jury also heard how a government agency had actually placed the snake with JC despite the species being banned in the province of New Brunswick.

[00:28:53] They heard how it was likely this scent from the farm animals that the children had played with earlier on in the day that roused the snake to escape from its enclosure in search of food.

[00:29:04] They heard how JC loved both Noah and Connor and would have never done anything intentional to hurt them.

[00:29:12] It was a really difficult trial for Noah and Connor's family and for JC, for the jury and for the Cambleton community. It was just such a tragic case.

[00:29:23] In the end, Jean-Claude Savois was found not guilty of criminal negligence causing death.

[00:29:29] As you can imagine, the reactions were very mixed. Some people were really angry. Some were relieved.

[00:29:38] But ultimately, there were no winners here. Nothing could bring back Noah or Connor.

[00:29:44] I still have a lot of love for him in my heart. He was a great person and he will always be a great person like he's kind.

[00:29:52] He's a kind man. And like I said, he didn't want this to happen to the boys. So I don't know if I would have liked to see him spend time behind bars or not.

[00:30:03] I think maybe. But at the same time, he had this young boy that he had to raise and the circumstances weren't like, you know, perfect.

[00:30:14] And it was just it was confusing for everybody, I think. Even if he didn't get charged for negligence, like that doesn't mean there was no negligence, you know, that doesn't mean like I can clearly see now that there are things that were wrong with the establishment.

[00:30:32] And that we're not kept up with. I mean, it wasn't safe. It wasn't safe and I don't understand how everybody missed that.

[00:30:43] Like I don't understand how nobody said like the hey this is weird, you know?

[00:30:48] I think he has more than enough pain to deal with for the rest of his life.

[00:30:55] I don't think he's getting away from this got free. Like I think a lot of people thought like that.

[00:31:00] I don't think it's like that because he loved those children, like I know there isn't a day that he wakes up and doesn't think about them.

[00:31:08] Because if there is not a day I wake up and I don't think about them, there isn't a day he wakes up and doesn't think about them.

[00:31:14] He knew them before me. He was close to them. Like I said, he treated them like his own.

[00:31:21] He treated them with a lot of respect and care and love, you know?

[00:31:27] And if JC knew something like this was going to happen, he would have gotten out of there.

[00:31:34] He would have gotten them out of there. He would have never let them sleep there. Like never.

[00:31:40] Four years after Noah and Connor were killed by an African rock python, new legislation was introduced in order to regulate exotic animals in the province of New Brunswick.

[00:31:51] The legislation provided better regulation for the importation, possession, sale and public display of exotic animals like reptiles, fish, spiders, and other wildlife.

[00:32:02] In response to the new legislation, the former mayor of Hamilton said it's just nice to know that their death isn't in vain.

[00:32:10] That the government did take it seriously and they acted. We can't go back.

[00:32:15] We can't press rewind but we can certainly make it better to go forward.

[00:32:20] We were torn between having lost children and having lost a community member.

[00:32:25] We were all aware and we were all guilty to know that that place was there.

[00:32:31] We were bringing our school children there, then all of a sudden we had to be mad at this gentleman for operating this.

[00:32:39] It's a little of both. Which is absolutely a fair statement.

[00:32:43] The fault doesn't fall solely on to the shoulders of Snake owner JC.

[00:32:49] His pet shop and former zoo, it was a location frequented by many. Many that knew he housed such creatures.

[00:32:57] There were volunteers who saw that maybe a few things had slipped through the cracks like that vent cap not being secured back on.

[00:33:06] And people knew that things could become dangerous.

[00:33:10] The government department that gave him the snake would have known that this snake was not legal to have in the province and that JC didn't have the proper paperwork to actually keep the python.

[00:33:21] There were no sinister intentions by anyone, but unfortunately all of these little things not spoken up about they turned an innocent sleepover into a total tragedy.

[00:33:34] I love the thought of them being up there and pain free and just like to me, the boys are in heaven to me.

[00:33:41] They're just they're surrounded by all the pure things and all the people that I miss and all of the good things.

[00:33:52] That's how I see them and that's how I want to keep seeing them.

[00:33:56] They're so dear to me, they're so near to my heart and I've I've spent so long not talking about it because it's a traumatizing story.

[00:34:08] It's a triggering story for a lot of people. It's hard for a lot of people to hear about it.

[00:34:13] So for so long, I've kept it in and that did me so much bad like that that wrecked me.

[00:34:23] Like I need to say their names. I need people to say their names. I need them to be remembered as the true amazing boys they were, you know, I don't want them to be remembered as just victims of this senseless attack.

[00:34:42] Like I want them to be forever in people's memory as the two happiest little boys out there.

[00:34:51] I really hope that they, they I hope that everybody can heal from their loss, you know, because that's what they would want. That's what they would want.

[00:35:00] It's so important to like if you're owning any kind of animals that are a danger to humans or children, like you need to enclose them properly, especially at night.

[00:35:14] You know, it's so important to be more aware of that like these animals. It's within them. It's their life instinct like that sneak did what he did his whole life, you know.

[00:35:26] And I don't resent him like I don't, I don't think he deserved to die either. Like I think that, that this whole thing was a tragedy for everybody, everything involved.

[00:35:37] And I don't want people to be afraid of reptiles. I want people to learn how to handle reptiles properly. I think I don't think it's a it's bad to own reptiles. I just think everybody should be safe and should know that there is a possibility

[00:35:54] of a specific animal getting out or something. And like it happens with cats and dogs too, you know, around toddlers and stuff. Like we see so many animal bites and stuff.

[00:36:06] It can happen in that like a second and we just have to be more aware that, you know, the animals that we own, like what the potential is and how we can keep them and us safe.

[00:36:22] As the years passed, Jean-Claude Subwa moved out of Camelton and over to Montreal to try to start over. Though he was never convicted of anything criminal, this tragedy it completely destroyed his life as it had others.

[00:36:38] If I had to guess, there's likely not a day that goes by that he doesn't wake up thinking about Connor and Noah and what he could have done differently.

[00:36:47] He may not have been punished with jail time, but he lives with the guilt that two little boys he loved very much died while in his care as a result of owning a dangerous animal that was not properly secured.

[00:37:02] As for Connor and Noah's mommy, she loved her boys more than life itself and she expected that they would be safe that night when they went to their best friend's house for a sleepover.

[00:37:14] It is a mother's worst nightmare. Time does not heal everything. No one can ever get over the loss of a child, especially two incredible little boys who loved life and made everyone so happy just being around them.

[00:37:31] The strength that she has shown is incredible.

[00:37:35] Mandy ended up having two other children, a boy and a girl. And from what I know she's currently doing, okay, I don't know if you can ever do well after something like that happens to you.

[00:37:52] I don't think a day goes by that she doesn't think about them or they're not in the back of their mind. And I know for a long time and probably still to this day she holds a lot of resentment towards herself for letting them go to that sleepover.

[00:38:11] And I've told her countless times that there was nothing she could have done to prevent this. There was nothing she could have done to know this was going to happen and that it's not her fault.

[00:38:25] We meet our own happiness together with whatever, whatever we had that day and they haven't they will always have a special place in my heart.

[00:38:34] I have their names now tattooed on my knees and I know I'll never be alone again. They're always with me, you know, I always feel them.

[00:38:44] I always talk to them and I know that they're watching over me.

[00:38:49] That's it for me tonight. If you want to reach out, you can find me on Facebook at serial mapper.

[00:38:55] I also have a true crime discussion group. It's called serial society and I'll have the link in my show notes. You can find my audio on Apple or Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts.

[00:39:06] I post all of my episodes in video format over on YouTube, so go check it out. And if you're watching on YouTube, I'd love if you can give me a thumbs up and subscribe.

[00:39:16] I'm over on X, formerly known as Twitter at serial underscore napper and I post things on TikTok that's serial napper Nick and that's all one word.

[00:39:26] Until next time, sweet dreams, stay kind, especially in the comments. Bye.

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