MacDonald Murders by The Looking Glass

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[00:00:26] Visit Max.com. rundown of the story, and then hopefully it's convinces you to go check out the looking glass. Alright, here we go. If you liked today's episode, make sure to check out the episode description for links to subscribe. Alright, let's get this show started. Begin! This is Matthew Craig Kelly. Welcome back to The Looking Glass. It took very little time for military authorities to conclude that McDonald's story was a confection. Indeed, within a week of the murders, they advised the FBI to call off the nationwide search then underway for the gang of intruders that had allegedly committed the crime. No such gang existed, the Army's investigators were satisfied.

[00:04:20] In fact, within hours of the murders, the Provost-Marsh There were no shattered glass, broken china, or scattered houseware. And unlike in the bedrooms, the blue fibers were nowhere to be found in the living room, where McDonald claimed his pajama top had originally been ripped and repeatedly punctured in his struggle with the intruders. As conspicuous, there was no trace of

[00:05:43] water or mud in the residence, as there ought to quietly kill a human being, as McGinnis relates. In a report never publicly released, the Fort Bragg Provost Marshall expressed the opinion that the accuracy, similarity, and location of the wounds strongly indicates actions of one individual with expertise on vulnerability, killing as rapidly and mercifully as possible

[00:07:04] without creating any noise. Macdonald, by now thoroughly disenchanted with the army, hired a civilian lawyer Bernard Siegel to defend him. It was a shrewd decision. Siegel promptly got to work scrutinizing the army's investigation and shortly uncovered a rat's nest of forensic incompetence. If there was one thing Siegel established in the course of the army's legal proceedings

[00:08:21] against Macdonald, it was that the had been a struggle in the room, prosecutors

[00:09:40] insisted. Had there actually been a struggle to the Article 32 hearing, Rock's judgment was sound. Hammond Beale, Rock's advisor on the case, would later comment to Errol Morris. It's hard to believe that McDonald lost his wife, both kids, and then ends up losing

[00:11:02] his license and freedom forever.

[00:11:05] Pretty bad for something he didn't do.

[00:11:07] You believe that McDonald and Colette's marriage, despite appearances, was in fact troubled, probably because of Jeffrey's extramarital philandering, which investigators had first learned of while inspecting the crime scene, where they discovered a mildly salacious Valentine to McDonald from the wife of one of his commanding officers,

[00:12:21] who was then in Vietnam.

[00:12:23] Further investigation turned up more affairs.

[00:12:26] Colette, Army prosecutors surmised, moved as far from North Carolina as he could. In 1971, McDonald relocated to sunny Southern California, where he took a job as an emergency surgeon at Long Beach's St. Mary's Hospital. Before long, he promoted up to head of emergency medicine. McDonald had always been resilient, and despite the almost unthinkable tragedy

[00:13:41] he had left behind in North Carolina, he appeared to have turned over a new and grandchildren began to grow uneasy, and before long, their confidence in McDonald's innocence faltered. One common misunderstanding is that Freddie's epiphany that McDonald was, in reality, a superficially charming but ruthlessly narcissistic sociopath, occurred one night while watching television. It was mid indeed, off, but so was Cavitt's. What in the world was Cavitt doing, having McDonald on his show, to talk about the murder of his wife and children only months earlier? Who let this happen? Regardless, Freddy Kasab was less interested in Cavitt than he was in McDonald, and what

[00:16:20] he saw infuriated him.

[00:16:22] McDonald's manner was casual.

[00:16:24] He appeared to be enjoying himself. struck. Where was the pain? Where was the emphasis on Colette, Kimmy, and Kristen? All McDonald seemed interested in was charming the stars of late night TV and whinging about the army's unfair treatment of him. But while Casab was extremely irritated by McDonald's behavior on the Dick Cabot Show, he did not, at this point, conclude that McDonald was a murderer.

[00:17:44] And he continued his public relations campaign to have read at least 20 times. He was especially preoccupied with McDonald's testimony regarding the night of the murders, which he said he perused over 100 times.

[00:19:00] Having surely become the world's leading expert on McDonald's article 32 testimony, life destroyed by the darkest forces of the counterculture, and then his reputation ruined by a corrupt establishment. And he then found himself, as one does, in a completely different reality, wherein his son-in-law was a masterful narcissist, as ruthless as he was charming. For those who undergo such an experience, it is common to retrospectively anoint some

[00:20:23] dramatic moment as the turning point, the single second in which everything changed. McDonald had placed a call to Kasab, which, to McDonald's eventual chagrin, Kasab recorded. McDonald told his father-in-law that he and a few of his fellow green berets had recently trawled Fayetteville on a mission to locate the murderers and had gotten lucky. They had, McDonald claimed, tracked down one of the February 17 intruders, beaten him until

[00:21:42] he confessed to his involvement, and then killed and buried him. tells the person most determined to catch the culprits a lie that if believed may dissuade him from continuing his pursuit. There were other lies. Freddie learned, for example, that McDonald, while being held at Fort Bragg during the Article 32 hearing, had taken up with yet another woman. Mir months after the utter destruction of his supposedly one true love,

[00:23:03] they're two young daughters and their unborn son.

[00:24:01] Jeffrey McDonald. The precise moment when Freddie apprehended this constellation remains a mystery.

[00:24:06] Indeed, there may not have been such a singular moment.

[00:24:09] What is certain is that by June 1972, when the Army completed its 3,000-page report

[00:24:15] on the re-investigation of the murders, Freddie and the CID investigators were agreed.

[00:24:21] Four intruders had not murdered Colette, Kristen, and Kimberly.

[00:24:24] Jeffrey had. keeping with the conventions of a grand jury, and covering a range of preliminary and background issues, the Justice Department's Victor Warhide came to the critical matters. He questioned McDonald at length about the call he had made to Freddy Kasab in November 1970, wherein he'd claimed to have hunted down and killed one of the intruders.

[00:25:40] Warhide also quoted from letters McDonald he came to the heart of the matter the night of February 16th and 17th 1970. Warhide. Dr. McDonald, going back to sometime before February 16th, we recount the

[00:27:00] events as you recall them, culminated with the assault upon you on the night on because infrequently Kristi would get up and go looking for her own bottle in the refrigerator. So we usually left one in the refrigerator. So the next thing I remember was I heard my wife screaming and she said, help Jeff. And at the same time I heard Kristi, Kimberly. I'm sorry it wasn't Kristi. It was Kimberly. She was screaming, daddy.'t know if it was because it was kind of, you know, wavering thing of an intermittent light or something, but I still think it was like candlelight, you know? It was an impression. It was in the midst of a dark room and over a period of 10 to 20 to 30 seconds, and I never really saw her. I saw hair. I saw a face outline and a hat, and that was it.

[00:29:42] That was all I saw.

[00:29:43] And while this was happening, Collette was screaming,

[00:29:45] and Kimberly wasation, recalling what happened even at the time, much less four years later, was

[00:31:03] a challenge. certain words. Right. Now, acid is... Groovy. Groovy? Kill the pigs. Kill the pigs. How many times did you hear her say that? Several, it seemed to me. And while this was going on, you continued to hear Collette and Kimberly. Yeah, I don't know.

[00:32:24] What I really heard was what I told you before. I heard help. Help. Jeff. Help. So the reader is already aware that McDonald is guilty, and that supposed fact imbues McDonald's responses to Warhidey with their emotional significance. Arrogance, self-pity, indignation that is anything but righteous, however much McDonald's strain to create the opposite impression. By contrast, while acknowledging that Warhidey succeeded in establishing McDonald's dishonesty,

[00:33:43] I have selected bits of McDonald's testimony that entail critiques of his persecutors. individuals having been in the apartment. The problem would have been to disaggregate the grass, water, mud, and other debris carried into the apartment by MPs, medics, and civilians from the grass, water, mud, and other debris carried in by the intruders, who, according to McDonald, had preceded them. And when it came to hair and fingerprint evidence, as McDonald rightly protested, the CID had

[00:35:04] been unable to forensically establish the and it seemed fairly obvious that McDonald's tale was a hastily concocted cover story, not an honest recollection. But this was all wrong, protested, McDonald. He had never said drug-crazed hippies attacked him. He described his attackers as three males with short hair, one of whom wore an army

[00:36:22] jacket, and a woman holding a light of some sort. daughter at the same moment he registered the presence of strange people in his living room. Why, if you are making up a story, say something like this. Why compound the implausibility of your tale by suggesting that even more psychotic intruders were in your home that morning? Why not, if you're fabricating the story whole cloth, claim that you heard your wife

[00:37:44] and daughter scream both bolted up in bed and that he was noticing the intruders, even though there had, in fact, been a delay between the two events.

[00:39:03] In that case, McDonald's recollection would be phenomenologically, Now back to this episode crime, it seems. Now I'm sure it's going to occur to the grand jury if what I'm saying is true. How did this incredible sort of prosecution ever get going?

[00:41:40] And I just like one sentence to sort of my theory if I'm allowed that.

[00:42:44] He said, because of the flower pot, all he had to do was ask an MP. All he had to do was line up the MP and say, has anyone seen anyone touch anything?

[00:42:49] He never did it.

[00:42:51] The first time the MPs were questioned was six months later.

[00:42:55] Now that's unbelievable police work.

[00:42:59] The flower pot to which McDonald's refers was I staged a scene and dumped out a flower pot and then stood the flower pot up, that's unbelievable reason. They also never bothered to ask the doctor if they had moved anyone because apparently to them very important fibers wound up under the body of my wife.

[00:44:20] Fibers that they say belonged to my pajama top.

[00:44:22] Well apparently we're never going to know if they could have belonged to my pajama bottoms

[00:44:26] either. photographs of the bedroom, but the point is the CID sort of neglects to mention all these things. When they say there were no perpetrators in the house or as they like to say it, alien beings. That's the most absurd reasoning. Look, I'm here obviously defending myself. So what weight does my word carry? But to say that

[00:45:41] they found no evidence of other people in that house when they had the back door

[00:45:45] open and the front door open, both doors open, having people walking in and out castle drive. Apparently we have a significant number of fingerprints including fingerprints on the door leading into the house to the utility room that were destroyed. Now I don't know if that's obstruction of justice but it sure seems like a lot of incompetence in the army. They're guilty of something for that and I know because I was in the army. The photographs, the same

[00:47:02] photographs that are alleged you know that night were never found. I suggest they weren't found because of that initial couple of hours where heard anything that shouldn't have been asked, if not in the first investigation, in the second investigation. Recall that the army conducted two investigations into the murders. The first culminated in the Article 32 in the summer of 1970. After MacDonald was cleared of wrongdoing in the Article 32, both he and his father-in-law,

[00:49:43] Freddy Kasab, waged a public campaign to have the army has ever had, and they can't find the group of four assailants. So therefore, I'm guilty. All I'd like to say, sir, is, you know, you haven't asked me. You know, I didn't murder my wife and my kids.

[00:51:01] And to the best of my knowledge, despite what the perverse Mr. Ivory thinks, Collette

[00:51:06] didn't either. He was a helicopter pilot or something like that, and he was in Vietnam or Thailand or Laos or something, and she testified that she was held prisoner for several days by a group of what she said were hippies, including a black male, a girl with wigs, including a blonde wig, and several Caucasian males. And as a matter of fact, she called the CID to her apartment to kick these people out.

[00:52:22] Well, after the assault on myself and my family,. No sir, I have no criticism. If the claims McDonald makes here are true, they are arguably devastating to the government's

[00:53:44] case against him. After the merge. Friends Grebner. In the Fayetteville Fort Bragg complex it would be an excess of 3500 people. Can you tell us approximately what percentage of these people were interviewed specifically? With respect to the four alleged assailants of Captain McDonald and his family? In the initial stages the majority of these agents reported to you as the total number of persons they interviewed each day? Did I write that down? Yes, sir. No, sir. Well, where did you get the figure of 1500 other than... Are you saying to your recollection of what they told you on February 17th, 18th, and

[00:56:26] 19th? Have you figured out the amount of time that was devoted to each interview on the basis of the number of hours they were working? I would have no way of knowing that. Do you have any idea of how long or how short the interviews were? I object to answer the question. Your objection is overruled.

[00:57:41] Captain Summers.

[00:57:43] It would vary with each interview. had conducted 500 interviews in three days, so I suppose another 13 could have conducted a thousand. It's still a whole lot of interviews, though, and if we're being serious, Gresner's claim is not believable. Clearly then, as McDonald was suggesting, the Army was falsely claiming to have scoured heaven and earth in search of the killers-existent intruders over the next three days, much less weeks, have been? Let's look at another of McDonald's claims before the grand jury. He said that he was unaware of any evidence that roadblocks had ever been established around Fort Bragg in order to catch the intruders he had described to investigators. Here, too,

[01:00:21] McDonald was right. Indeed, more right than he knew, as McGinnis himself wrote in Fatal Vision.

[01:01:25] have set up roadblocks at the exit's closest to McDonald's residence. McDonald's complaint about his pajama bottoms having been thrown out at the hospital was

[01:01:28] also valid. His accusers had made a great deal of the presence of his blue pajama fibers

[01:01:34] in the children's rooms and master bedroom. How did they get there? If he'd torn his pajama

[01:01:39] top in the living room and then removed it in the master bedroom all before ever entering

[01:01:43] the children's rooms. This was seemingly powerful circumstantial evidence of McDonald's story was inaccurate. Whereas, if, as the army surmised, he and Colette had begun violently fighting in the master bedroom, and she had torn his pajama top. Fibers might have fallen on the floor prior to her death, and her dead body, therefore, may have wound up on top of them.

[01:03:00] But this theory held water only if Colette had lain undisturbed prior to investigators

[01:03:05] locating the fibers beneath her body. During his Article 32 testimony back in 1970, Sergeant Robert Duffy did claim that he had noticed a drawer pulled out in the master bedroom and had formed the impression that, in his words, stuff was hanging out of the drawers as if someone had looked through them. Yet, when shown a crime scene photograph of the same chest of drawers, all of the drawers

[01:04:22] were closed.

[01:04:24] Duffy stuck by his testimony nevertheless. did not conform to Micah's memory when he had entered the living room. Among the items he'd noticed was the infamous flower pot which was lying on its side. The crime scene photos showed the flower pot standing upright by contrast. Siegel pressed Micah's testimony confirmed that it hadn't been McDonald. All of this testimony casts significant doubt on the evidentiary value of the crime scene photos in which investigators had placed so much stock. McDonald also complained about the

[01:07:02] fingerprinting at the scene. Was there anything to this complaint? Again, yes. Researchers Jerry Tewehr called his desk sergeant, who wiped Tewehr's prints off, not McDonald. Nearly forty of the Prince investigators did successfully process where of unknown origin, might they have been left by the intruders? Between the destroyed and unidentified Prince, and those McDonald clearly hadn't wiped from various items, where exactly was the fingerprint

[01:08:22] evidence implicating McDonald? Finally, MacDonald told Warhidy in the grand jurors about a Mrs. Daw who had testified at the Article 32 and claimed that she had been held hostage, only blocks from 544 Castle Drive by a group of hippies that included a black man and a girl with a blonde wig. MacDonald was, as he admitted, unclear on the details, and his depiction was a bit

[01:09:43] too neat, but the story is nevertheless worth briefly relating. just like the McDonald children. Over a period of several weeks, both Foster and McCormick repeated this threat at least half a dozen times. Mrs. Daw ultimately learned from Foster that the group was using her car to transport drugs into Fayetteville. Their connection was reportedly a black male. Mrs. Daw wrote her husband in Vietnam regarding this situation

[01:11:02] and he immediately received permission to return home.

[01:11:05] In November 1969, he and Mrs. Daw How far your place was on LaBlanc. Castle Drive is just a couple of blocks. When did you learn about the McDonald's Killings? The morning after, my husband and I had set the alarm, the radio to go off real loud. It went off that morning and they were telling the names and they were telling about the McDonald's

[01:12:22] children getting killed and his wife. which really gives the effect of long hair in the back? Yes. It doesn't change the contour of the hair in the front. No. About how tall was Mary Harten? About five full, maybe? No. Five five, I guess. And what was her build?

[01:13:41] She was about average.

[01:13:44] About Chris Jones.

[01:13:46] That was McCormick had been transferred to Vietnam by the time of the McDonald murders and thus could not have been among the intruders at 544 Castle Drive on February 17.

[01:15:04] The government argued that the Dawes' Pendley Shocks had entered the master bedroom and, using Mrs. Pendley

[01:16:21] Shock's lipstick, scrawled obscenities on the vanity mirror, along a comment about how he and Colette often left their doors unlocked. An important point, given that investigators had found no evidence of a break-in on February 17th. No damaged locks, windows, or door handles. It thus appeared that if intruders had entered the residence, they had simply walked in through an unlocked door, as had the MPs themselves in the pre-dawn hours of February

[01:17:43] 17th, and she had heard something. A woman was screaming in the distance. And children. She was certain it had been more than one. We're crying.

[01:19:00] All at the same time. was the unfairness of it all. This type of comment is a subtext that McGinnis threads early in Fatal Vision and continues weaving across the text until, in Chapter 2 of Part 4, it becomes visible to the reader. That is, the reader begins to see more clearly that McDonald, despite an appearance of relative

[01:20:21] normality, is actually something closer to a subtly constructed reflex machine which Artfully circles back to the mirror's theme in the conclusion when discussing his post-conviction return to McDonald's condominium later this same year. Jeffrey McDonald's condominium was quite comfortable. Once I got used to all the mirrors.

[01:21:41] Similar as sides are sprinkled throughout fatal work in convincing the reader of McDonald's guilt considerably easier. Vanity and ambition are a notoriously volatile cocktail. Stir in a pinch of psychopathy and you might even get murder. I'm your host, Matthew Craig Kelly. Welcome back to The Looking Glass True Crime Podcast and on Instagram at The Looking Glass underscore podcast. We will be posting season one related documents, photographs and short essays regularly at both of these accounts. Follow us on YouTube and TikTok at The Looking Glass True Crime. If you enjoy the podcast, please subscribe and give us a five star review.

[01:24:23] We appreciate your support. psychological abnormality. I cannot say how these passages read in 1983 when Fatal Vision was originally published, but today they read like a remarkably unconvincing attempt to establish that Jeffrey McDonald was capable of slaughtering his pregnant wife and two daughters on a whim, no less.

[01:25:43] Contrary to its intended effect, the Guinness' rehearsal of the psychiatric testimony

[01:25:45] before the grand jury gives the reader a depressing look crime scene. Meanwhile the psychiatric witnesses themselves would make any reflective reader wonder how they might fare under such free form scrutiny. For example, the former chief of psychiatry at Walter Reed Army Hospital, a man who had

[01:27:01] examined McDonald's in 1970 and found him warm, but if I were, and if it were offered to me, I would take the test. You added one element in your previous answer. If you were in his shoes and you knew you were innocent, you wouldn't hesitate to take the test. That's right.

[01:28:20] But if you were in his shoes and you knew you had done it, would you take the sodium

[01:28:27] amethol?

[01:28:28] No, sir. grand jury speculated about that's my opinion.

[01:31:05] Warhide psychiatric witnesses also contradicted each other, though that didn't seem to bother him or McGinnis, and without reserve. He soon added, more than most people, Captain McDonald would not be very good at subtly or cleverly or consistently hiding features about his personality. He was too naive to do that. Which was it? Was McDonald a Machiavellian? Able to reverse engineer the MMPI and jam up its calculus, confounding the analysts? Or was he a

[01:32:24] simpleton, incapable of hiding his true colors for any length of time? and he would make little effort to conceal these feelings. McDonald was especially put out by any questions about his philandering, which he regarded as clearly outside the scope of an insane investigation into whether he had murdered his family. War Heidi, by contrast, regarded as one pillar of his case, the others being McDonald's mendacity, psychopathy, and fragile masculinity.

[01:33:43] So this time around, the womanizing questions came early. Remember where you worked in 64? No, I'm sure you know. Alright, well, when I mentioned Monvenique, does that refresh your recollection with respect to Gloria Lloyd? Yeah, I think she was a secretary working for Montven. Oh, and tell us what happened. I bawled the girl. Big deal. She was a secretary.

[01:35:00] Well, did Collette find out about this?

[01:35:04] No, Collette didn wasn't thinking about that.

[01:36:23] I'm sure you sustained, Dr. McDonald? I never noticed much blood on myself, I don't know.

[01:37:40] Well, you had all these injuries when you were lying on the floor and at one point there,

[01:37:46] did you not?

[01:37:47] Uh-huh. explanations as to that. Well, first of all, Mr. Warhide, there's a lot of traffic up and down that hall, including a stretcher and moved clothing, so I have no idea which time is accurate. It probably isn't. That's the first premise. The second, I have no idea. I can't answer that. It seems to me the club was used in the other rooms after it was used on me.

[01:39:03] Well, that would mean that

[01:40:05] prosecutorial prey, and finally uncork his threatened masculinity theory of the murders before the Grand Jury.

[01:40:07] Warhidy

[01:40:08] Mr. Stambaugh, by careful examination of these photographs, was able to reconstruct the manner

[01:40:14] in which the pajama top was folded.

[01:40:17] He did reconstruct it.

[01:40:19] He found there were 48 ice-pick penetration marks on your pajama top, and when the pajama you in a state of rage? No. If she had accused you of a lack of sexual competence would they have? Would that have set you in a state of rage? Or would have had no effect whatsoever as far as your concern? I can't imagine me being in a state of rage over that. How about accusing you of a lack of masculinity? Collect? Accusing wounds? We will return to this unqualified claim in a later episode. It was, believe it or not, the smoking gun evidence of McDonald's guilt by McGinnis' lights. But for now, it is worth considering that McDonald's reaction that this far-fetched

[01:43:00] claim was bullshit was perhaps the appropriate one.

[01:43:05] Contrary to McGinnis' narrative, a look in the bed with Collette and went to bed. Right, it was. A test of the urine spot indicates it was Kimberly's urine and not Kristen's urine. Recall that Kristen was the McDonald's youngest two-year-old daughter. Kimberly, their eldest daughter, was five.

[01:44:20] Well, Christy was in the bed.

[01:44:22] What do you want me to say?

[01:44:24] Jesus Christ, Christy was in the bed.

[01:44:26] She wet the bed and I put adamant denial is before the grand jury made clear. He knew which daughter wet the bed. Second, that meant McDonald was lying about which daughter wet the person having type AB blood, the blood type of Kimberly McDonald, as opposed to the type O blood of Kristen. War Heidi confronted Jeffrey with the contradiction between this fact and his statement that it had been Christie who had wet the bed135, and Q136 were identified by departmental attorney Murtaugh as urine stains on bed sheet material. Since no conclusive methods of analysis for blood group antigens

[01:48:21] and urine stains are currently available to the investigation, and I do. I think this grand jury ought to know how this case has been investigated. Since you like newspapers, Mr. Warhidey, I have here a newspaper clipping from December 1974 from Newsday about the graves of my wife and children.

[01:49:43] I'd like the grand jury to take a look at it. sitting here last August, it doesn't seem right to me. Who allegedly made the statement to? That creep that works for you, that little viper. All right. The little guy who doesn't have enough politeness to introduce himself or doesn't know any of the social amenities. McDonald here referred to Brian Murtaugh, an army lawyer who became convinced of McDonald's guilt

[01:51:00] on the basis of the second army investigation

[01:51:02] into the murders and who continued pursuing the case

[01:51:05] when he transferred to the Justice Department.

[01:52:01] are down in the FBI office. And he called back and said that he had to have

[01:52:04] another meeting, that it was imperative.

[01:52:06] And she said, fine, we'll meet in the FBI office.

[01:52:08] And he said, that's okay, we don't need the meeting.

[01:52:11] That's just a little aside, it's not important,

[01:52:13] nothing to do with the facts of the case.

[01:52:15] It's just indicative of how the case

[01:52:18] has been handled from the beginning to end.

[01:52:21] Then I'd like to, well, there's a lot I'd like to say,

[01:52:24] but what I'm going to do, if it's okay with you, Somehow I don't love my family and I don't miss them and I faked everything about the murders This means of course that I never cared for my family at all and of course that leads to that I must have killed them the last time I was here in August and this time I tried to answer your questions I have told you as much as I know

[01:53:41] Except in regards to attorney work products that mr. Segal says I shouldn't talk about I

[01:54:42] I could have killed them. And then going out to California and bought a car and a boat,

[01:54:45] forgot all about it.

[01:54:47] Well, that's not true.

[01:54:48] People want to know why I don't spend all my time crying on other people's shoulders,

[01:54:52] why I don't break down.

[01:54:53] Is he cold?

[01:54:54] Doesn't he have any feelings?

[01:54:55] Wouldn't that show more of my love?

[01:54:57] Let's start with the newspaper interviews and the Dick Cavett Show.

[01:55:01] My mother, my brother, and my sister, they all tell me that when they were here,

[01:55:05] they were asked at length or I'm not normal. lied to him when I told him about these stupid pathetic attempts to find the real killers. He's partially right, but he's partially wrong too. I never did sit down with him and tell him the whole story, but contrary to implications that he keeps leaving, he was apprised of everything. We were in daily contact. He knew exactly because of that. I mean, he made a very dramatic and nice testimony for me at the Article 32. Then it was hard to sit around and talk with Mildred about comparing the prettiness of her respective grandchildren and who should have been killed.

[01:59:01] How do you expect me to understand that this was a life that Collette and I had planned.

[02:00:22] Collette and I were supposed to go to Yale and heart attacks and gunshots and stabbings, I work very hard and I work on purpose. I've got to work, I stay busy, see a lot of people. I'm exhausted, I work a 12-hour shift, I make a lot of money. Okay, I don't work hard to make a lot of money. That's not my goal in life.

[02:01:40] I make a lot of money, so I spend a lot.

[02:01:42] That's another crime.

[02:01:44] I have, this sounds really trite,

[02:01:47] I like emergency medicine, you know? That's not true. That's a lot of shit. I didn't kill Colette. And I didn't kill Kimmy. And I didn't kill Christy. And I didn't move Colette. And I didn't move Kimmy. And I didn't move Christy. And I gave them mouth-to-mouth breathing. And I love them then. And I love them now. And Colette didn't kill them either.

[02:03:00] And you can shovel your fucking evidence right up your ass.

[02:03:06] Dr. McDonald, we were talking about shame. And I was crying or something, I don't know. And he said, what are you crying about? And I said, I'm ashamed. And he said, what for? And I said, occasionally, I said, occasionally I have a feeling, you know, that I have no more responsibilities.

[02:04:20] And I was ashamed of the feeling.

[02:04:22] And he said, it's not an abnormal feeling. And I that? Well, according to the theory of the crime that the FBI's Paul Stombaugh presented to the grand jury, McDonald had, as the original investigator surmised, gotten into a fight with Colette in the master bedroom. It had grown violent, with not only Jeffrey striking Colette, but with Colette striking

[02:05:43] Jeffrey in the head with a different blood type. This was how investigators were able to determine that, for example, Colette had blood in Kristen's room, not just her own. I have no idea what that even means, Mr. Warhide.

[02:07:02] You know, you tell me you have an expert in impressions.

[02:07:05] He comes in and says that a body was lying against collet. Mr. Warhidey, that's all I know. I didn't even see a sheet. Maybe a sheet was something that I was pulling off a chair or off the bed to lay on her, but I don't remember that at all. I don't remember seeing a sheet even. It has your hand prints on it. Alright, so they are on it, but I don't know. I told you what I know. I gave her mouth to mouth breathing and I tried to cover her with something and that's

[02:08:22] all I know.

[02:08:23] I didn't move my wife.

[02:08:24] I moved her off a green chair.