A Conversation with Danny R. Smith of Netflix’s “Homicide: Los Angeles” on Phil Spector, Crime Scene Chaos, and the Toll of Working Murder Cases

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[00:02:10] Homicide detectives have long been the objects of our collective cultural fascination. Especially for those of us who are interested in crime. We all want to know, what is the job like? What are the experiences of those who work to solve the cases that so grip us?

[00:02:26] Well, this latest project gets into all of that. The most recent season for the Netflix docuseries Homicide gets into the lives and cases of homicide detectives working out of Los Angeles. Homicide Los Angeles is a docuseries from Wolf Entertainment and Alfred Street. Yes,

[00:02:43] that's Law & Order creator Dick Wolf. It covers cases like the murder of Lena Clarkson by powerful music producer Phil Spector, as well as the murders of race car driver Mickey Thompson and his wife Trudy, and the disappearance and murder of film studio executive Gavin Smith, and more.

[00:02:59] The Murder Street was recently able to interview Danny R. Smith, one of the detectives featured in the first two episodes of the series. Smith is a 21-year veteran of the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department, having spent seven of those years working as a homicide detective. After retiring,

[00:03:16] he became a private investigator in Idaho. Now, he writes detective novels, including the Dickie Floyd Detective Series. In our conversation, we covered the murder of Lena Clarkson, the demands of a high-profile red ball case, and the toll that homicide work can take on an investigator's mental

[00:03:34] health. My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist. And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney. And this is The Murder Sheet. We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases. We're The Murder Sheet.

[00:03:50] And this is a conversation with Danny R. Smith of Netflix's Homicide Los Angeles on Phil Spector, crime scene chaos, and the toll of working murder cases.

[00:04:46] First of all, Danny, thank you so much for joining us. We really, really appreciate it. I guess before we start talking about Homicide Los Angeles and everything that series touches upon, can you tell us a little about yourself and your professional background?

[00:05:02] Sure. You bet. And thanks for having me on the show. So I'm retired from LA County Sheriff's Department, retired out of Homicide Bureau. I actually left in 2004 with a disability retirement. I had injured my neck pretty badly, but it was kind of a blessing in disguise because

[00:05:20] I was living with PTSD and hadn't really detected that. But my wife did. My wife had thought for a year I was pretty depressed, but I just kind of figured I was tired and burned out and

[00:05:33] all of those things that happen when you work at a place like Homicide. But when I left, I moved to Idaho and I started a private investigation business. And I did that for

[00:05:43] the next 18 years. A few years ago, five, six years ago, I started writing and publishing books. So that's what I do now. I've closed the PI business and I write and I play golf. And that's about it now.

[00:05:58] That sounds pretty good. Zooming back, had you always known you wanted to be a homicide detective? How did that sort of come to be for you? So, you know, in law enforcement, it's kind of interesting. I grew up playing cops like so many

[00:06:13] boys of my generation, you'd play cops or cowboys, whatever when you're a little kid. I hadn't really gotten interested in law enforcement until I graduated from high school and I was working for a security company, or not a security company, a corporation that had

[00:06:30] government contracts and they needed, you know, they had a security force there. And a buddy of mine, my drum teacher actually, of all people, he worked there and he said, Hey, Danny, that's a

[00:06:41] great job for why you're going to college because, you know, you can study while you're working. It's pretty laid back. So I get involved in this and the pay was really good back for 1980. It was

[00:06:52] $4.50 an hour. And I was thrilled to have it, but I'm working for these two retired LAPD cops. They were our security managers. And I don't know, these guys were just awesome. I loved

[00:07:06] everything about them, the way they walked, the way they talked, the way they interacted with people, their command presence, their war stories, of course. I mean, God, when the two of them were together in a room and they'd start, you know, either messing with each other or reminiscing

[00:07:22] and telling war stories. And I just ate it up, you know, I was 18 years old and I thought this is what I want to do. You know, this is cool stuff. So I took a route that was very intentional of this

[00:07:35] is what I'm going to do and this is where I'm going to go. And this is what I want to do. And I kind of had an inkling about homicide in my very early days during the academy. We went to the

[00:07:45] coroner's office. That was one of our tours one day. And then to be among all these cadavers in LA County coroner's office was interesting. And when I left there, I thought, yeah, see,

[00:07:55] I can do this job, you know, because that's one of those things, if you haven't done it, you're pretty apprehensive the first time you walk into a place like that, you know? And I was still

[00:08:06] a very young guy. I was 21. But, and then I had a great patrol career and I love working the streets. I worked in South LA at a place called Firestone and it was fun. I mean, it was a great job. It was

[00:08:17] a very, very busy place, very intense place to work, but I enjoyed it. And eventually I was told I should put in for detectives. And I hadn't really wanted to do that because I did like the

[00:08:29] streets, but it was a good move career wise. I knew that, you know, you have to, you don't want to become stagnant. And then once I started working detectives, there was really no other

[00:08:39] choice because getting to homicide is the pinnacle of detective work in law enforcement. I mean, it's just that way in every major metropolitan department, you know, throughout the country. And it's a difficult place to get to, you know, to get there. It was a big accomplishment. I had

[00:08:56] set my goals on it and I worked station detectives for five years doing different work, including crime impact team, the night card, doing some undercover stuff. Eventually made it to special investigations bureau. And that's a countywide detective division job. And at about the same

[00:09:13] time I was put on the list to go to homicide. So it was, it was a pretty fun and fast career. And, you know, I did 21 years, but I literally did all 21 years in the fast lane. I never had a

[00:09:25] job that was not intense. So when I left there, I was pretty burned out and I felt, I felt almost, well, not almost, I felt an emptiness when I left. And I also struggled with, with the fact that my

[00:09:41] career was over. And I went through quite a bit over that. I talk about that a lot in my memoir that I wrote, because I feel like, you know, there's a lot of cops that when they leave,

[00:09:52] they feel that same void in their lives. And a lot of other cops also leave with PTSD, whether it's diagnosed or not. So that was the purpose of my memoir. And I'm quite explicit

[00:10:05] about that and the pain and the difficulties that I addressed and how I've been able to manage and cope. Absolutely. I mean, some of the stress of the job is pretty apparent in the episode of

[00:10:20] Homicide that you were in about Phil Spector with such a high profile case and so much going on in the media. But before we get to that, I was just curious, I mean, we're awash in depictions of

[00:10:31] homicide detectives in pop culture. You know, that as a former homicide detective, but also as an author, it's something that really interests people. But what is something about the job? And I guess the life of a homicide detective that the general public may not understand

[00:10:44] or may not be super aware of, you know, the good or the bad. Well, I'll tell you, one of the most profound parts of being a homicide detective in a major metropolitan area is that you will never rest again. You know, there's something to be said

[00:11:04] about working patrol and at the end of the night, you put your uniform in the locker and slam the locker closed and you come back the next day with a fresh start. And at homicide, you don't

[00:11:16] do that. Once you've been there, you know, six months, your cases have piled up already to the point you will never see light of day again. And you end up working far more hours than you're

[00:11:28] ever compensated for, far more hours than a person should. And it definitely has a heavy toll on you because it's physical and mental stress. You know, you'll get called out. You know, I tell people, and I wrote about this in my book, one day I start, you know,

[00:11:49] Wednesday morning, six in the morning, I get up and do what I have to do and get to work. And we have a bureau meeting and I'm on call for murders and I'm first or second up, I don't

[00:12:00] remember. But later that evening, at the end of the day, I decided, well, I'm going to go ahead and stay around the office for a while because I hate to drive home and then get called out.

[00:12:13] And I was kind of hoping that I'd get called out earlier rather than later, even though normally it's the middle of the night. Well, my wish came true because at about five o'clock I get a murder

[00:12:24] and it was just a horrendous thing. It was a double murder. And we actually had some suspect information and a vehicle that came back to San Diego and we had a ton of witnesses. So we're

[00:12:36] working this case. I call in a couple of teams to assist because we've got so many witnesses in such a huge crime scene. It was a running gun battle. And I put a surveillance team down to San

[00:12:46] Diego. Well, by the time I was able to break away from what we were doing there with the crime scene and the major witness interviews, then we have to go to San Diego because we've got a suspect down

[00:12:59] there, or at least we have the suspect vehicle and turned out the suspect's girlfriend who was the driver. But we get down there and now we get a warrant where we're detaining her. We're

[00:13:11] searching the house. We're looking for this guy. And long story short, the 24 hour period of where I started working the day before comes and goes. And at about 30 hours in is when we start driving

[00:13:25] back. Now, I fell asleep on the freeway and I'm driving back. And I mean, I'm so tired. And my partner dozed off, which is a no-no. You always have to stay awake and keep the driver awake.

[00:13:39] And he dozed off and I'm fighting the fatigue. And I think everyone's experienced that where you're on the nod. But this is the only time I ever actually went to sleep. I mean, I literally woke

[00:13:51] up to horns blasting. I, you know, basically I exploded my seat because, oh my God, what has happened? And I'm going diagonally across the freeway, across these five lanes of traffic and

[00:14:04] people are laying on their horns. So it was a really scary and intense thing. But the point is that's the way you work at Homicide. You get a fresh case and it's not uncommon to work

[00:14:16] 24 hours, sometimes 48 hours straight without ever even sleeping. And then the next thing you know, you're back in court on your other cases. You're still working nights. You're doing all these different things and it definitely takes a toll on you. And then as your cases build up over

[00:14:32] the years, you know, there's cases that nag you because they're unsolved and you feel like you're close and you want to be able to get back to them, but you keep getting new cases and new cases and

[00:14:46] they're coming and you're basically doing triage, you know, and trying to figure out, okay, if there's a workable case, I got to spend some time on that. But you're buried in these cases and that

[00:14:56] takes a toll. You know, it doesn't matter if you're on your days off, if you're on vacation, you end up on the phone with informants, with attorneys, you know, with cops from other departments or throughout the county at various stations and gang units. And you're constantly

[00:15:14] working even when you're not working. So it's definitely, working homicide, it's a very taxing job. And you know, in the documentary I mentioned, you know, we were talking about Mark Liliefeld, my good friend and mentor, but he was one of those guys, I used to

[00:15:32] say he was like a duck where everything just kind of went smoothly over him. And he spent, I think he spent 25 years at Homicide, you know, or close to it. I don't know the exact number, but

[00:15:43] there were certain guys that had that type of personality that were able to do that. And those guys were the, in my opinion, that's the kind of guy that should work homicide. But what you end up with at a place like Homicide, you know, you've got this bullpen,

[00:15:59] we had a hundred detectives at Homicide and it used to call the floor area, you know, the bullpen because that's what it is. And you've got all these A-type personalities. And the majority of the guys are more like me where you're kind of wound too tight because

[00:16:15] that's what takes you to a position like Homicide, because you're so driven that they know that this is the kind of guy that we want investigating the death of a human being, because he's not

[00:16:29] going to stop. He's not going to sleep until he's, you know, just, he's going to work and work and work and that's great, but it takes its toll. So kind of an interesting, you know, dynamic there. 00.26

[00:16:46] It sounds very, very difficult to not only compartmentalize the job, but also sustain that level of dedication over time for sure. I'm curious, you mentioned the episode, so the episode that you were in about the Phil Spector case, and I'm just, can you talk about your sort

[00:17:03] of experience with that, you know, high profile long saga of a case? 00.37 Yeah. So, you know, our Bureau, like I said, there's 100 investigators at Sheriff's Homicide and we worked the whole county, which is a huge county and 100 could be doubled and we'd still be

[00:17:22] busy. But the point is it's broken into six teams and I was on team two and our team was up for murders when the Spector case came in and it came in, in the morning. Like, I mean, we were all

[00:17:33] literally showing up at the office and, you know, having our cup of coffee when, when the call came in and right away, you know, we all knew it was going to be what you call a red ball. Anytime you

[00:17:45] have a high profile person, a celebrity, whatever, you know, all you have to do is reflect back on the OJ Simpson case and, and in the many other celebrity cases that have, you know, been in LA,

[00:17:59] but you have that happen and you know what you're up against. And so our whole team responded to this rather than just, you know, Paul Fournier and Rich Tomlin were the primary investigators,

[00:18:10] but, and on a lot of murders, that's all that goes out is the two primaries, you know, and sometimes they might ask for one other pair of partners to, to assist with, you know, a big crime scene or

[00:18:21] whatever. But on that one, we rolled the whole team and, and, and Paul and Rich had asked Mark to be responsible for the crime scene. And the crime scene was a fiasco. I mean, it was huge.

[00:18:34] This place is literally a castle. It's called the Pyrenees Castle in Alhambra. And I mean, I don't even remember now how many square feet it is, but the place is like a hotel

[00:18:44] and, and we have a crime scene there and you have a murder and, or what we believe to be a murder. You have a dead woman, Lana Clarkson, and we have to investigate it as a murder. And there was more

[00:18:56] than enough reason to believe at that time when we got the call that it was in fact a murder and that Phil Spector was, was the killer. So Mark asked me to go write the Mincy warrant. A Mincy

[00:19:09] warrant basically is, it's a crime scene warrant. Mincy is a case, Mincy versus Arizona. And it goes back to the seventies, but basically, I don't, do you want me to tell you about Mincy at all?

[00:19:19] Please, please. My husband is a lawyer. We want to know about the law. Oh, okay. So, so, so Mincy came about because back in the seventies in Arizona, there was a, an undercover narcotics by at an apartment of the suspect and the thing went bad. And there

[00:19:38] was a police shooting and the cop was killed. The narcotics agent was killed. So homicide came there and did their, their investigation. You know, the, the suspect was in custody and, and the investigation, you know, started with, with the normal, you know, crime scene. And because you

[00:20:00] have a dead cop, it's kind of like, that's another red ball, you know, when you have a dead cop case. So, so their homicide, they, they held the crime scene for four days and they basically, you know,

[00:20:13] they removed hundreds and hundreds of items of evidence and, and they did all these things. And basically the contest was that, Hey, just because there's a crime scene here, doesn't mean that you give up your fourth amendment right to, you know, protection against search and seizure.

[00:20:31] So it went to the United States Supreme court, and that's how we ended up with Mincy, Mincy versus Arizona. And essentially what you need to know as an investigator is anytime you have a crime scene at a residence or truthfully any private property, if there's

[00:20:48] any chance at all that your suspect could have legal standing at that location, then you need to write a Mincy warrant. And the Mincy warrant basically is just a deal where you, you give a

[00:21:01] probable cause statement and, and your affidavit, your expertise, and you say, Your Honor, you know, we've got this, this location, this is it. You describe it briefly. And we've got this woman, she's dead from an apparent gunshot wound. And, you know, we want to search this location for

[00:21:20] evidence and process it as a crime scene. And then once you have the warrant, you're good to go. If you didn't have the warrant, then everything that you did inside that, that home and any evidence you seized would be found to be inadmissible in most courts because he,

[00:21:39] in this case, Specter has legal standing to that home. And without, you know, the authority of a, you know, a judicial blessing, so to speak, you can't just go in there and search it because a crime occurred there. Does that make sense?

[00:21:55] Taryn Larkin It does. It does make sense. And it's, yeah, it's just the legal wrangling that kind of goes without the public necessarily being aware of that, the intricacies is very interesting. Mark McClendon Yeah. And it's, and it's not a

[00:22:07] big deal. I mean, we're all very, very used to it. And even in the middle of the night, it's no, you know, you, you write your warrant and call a judge and either drive to his house and get it

[00:22:14] signed or do a telephonic warrant or whatever you need to do. So Mark asked me to write the warrant and I did. And then, oh, I think there was probably at least six or eight of us

[00:22:27] who processed that, that crime scene, which, you know, of course the immediate crime scene wouldn't have been that difficult, but you can't not search the entire house. And as it turned out, evidence was found all over the place because Phil Specter had done things like move things

[00:22:43] around, change clothes, you know, did all these things. So you do have to search every part of that castle for evidence. And I mean, it was just grueling and a really, really tough deal. But

[00:22:57] that that's essentially my involvement in that case. I didn't do much of the investigation. I just worked on the crime scene. Maura Vey It sounds like it was quite a crime scene, just given the fact that you have a very rich, very powerful music producer, but he kind

[00:23:15] of lives in almost like a hoarder's nest, it sounded like from the show. Mark Cunningham Yeah, it was crazy. I mean, you know, I mean, yeah, it was definitely a bit of a hoarder's nest and, and it was, it was not a

[00:23:27] clean place, but then there were just unbelievable things all over the house, you know, I mean, the studio and, and, you know, pictures of all the celebrities and, and, you know, I mean, Phil

[00:23:38] Specter was a big, big deal in the music industry. You know, he was the creator of the wall of sound and he was a big deal, but he was also nuts. And, and, you know, this, this almost seemed

[00:23:51] inevitable once, once the, the guys did a really thorough search and, and learned about his background and some of these other incidents that were very similar to what happened that night. Maura Vey I'm curious, do you,

[00:24:06] homicide detectives dread getting a red ball case? Is that just like an added amount of pressure on what is already a pressure filled job? Or do you tend to see people treating it like they would any other case or at least trying to as best as they can?

[00:24:22] Mark Cunningham I don't think I'd use the word dread. I think that, that most of the, most of the people that, that I worked with and that, you know, and, and, and as a homicide guy, you end up traveling all around the country. So I've

[00:24:34] worked with homicide guys all over the country. And, and I find that, that most of them are pretty similar, you know, I mean, it might change a little bit from, you know, West coast to East

[00:24:46] coast on how things are done, but the personalities are very, very similar. So in my experience, most guys that work at a place like homicide are up for any challenge. So I don't know if

[00:25:00] I'd use the word dread. You certainly have a healthy respect for a red ball that's coming in. You know what you're up against. But, you know, the, the important thing that you keep focused

[00:25:14] is that, you know, at the, at the center of every case, regardless if it's a red ball or a homeless guy found dead in an alley, you are investigating the death of a human being. And there's really

[00:25:30] no more awesome responsibility than to do that and to bring justice to the victim for whatever happened to that victim. And, and no matter who that victim is and how they live their lives,

[00:25:44] they didn't deserve to be killed most of the time, you know? So that, that's, that's at the center of it, you know, all the, all the hoopla outside and at the Specter case, believe me,

[00:25:57] there was, there was plenty of it. You know, there's the whole street was just lined with, with vans, you know, news vans and cameras and, and helicopters were circling the entire time

[00:26:08] above us and everything. But, you know, once you get through that gate, walk up that long driveway and go inside the home, you know, that outside world gets shut down and, and you just take,

[00:26:22] take a breath and you start thinking this is, this is just another murder case. And you have to do it like you would every other murder case methodically and precisely. Like I said, this, this case was Richard Paul's case. And once the crime scene's over and everything,

[00:26:37] those guys pretty much ran with it themselves. Mark assisted them quite a bit. Mark was, you know, the most senior detective on our team. He was a guy that, that he was just really good

[00:26:49] with, with these, these huge red ball cases. And I know he stayed and assisted Paul and Rich in a lot of different parts of the investigation, but the rest of us, you know, eventually are back to

[00:27:01] working our other cases. And as I recall, this was early 2003 when the murder occurred, but, but no, it was, it was the end of 2004 that, that I left the department. So it really didn't have

[00:27:16] anything to do with Spectre at all. It was just the timing of it. I was gone by time they, they went to trial on the case. Yeah. Took forever to get to trial. You,

[00:27:28] at one point in the episode quoted your colleague Mark about how everyone's got a certain number of bodies in them and in terms of homicide detectives. And can you talk about that and how being around death so frequently can really take its toll on somebody?

[00:27:43] Interestingly, Rich in that episode, he talked about how that, you know, you, I don't remember exactly how he said it, but he was basically talking about that. You know, there's just a

[00:27:54] body there and, and, and in his mind, the way he would deal with it is that's just a piece of evidence. And, and that was the case for all of us. You know, you're around death so much,

[00:28:04] I mean, hundreds and hundreds of cases. And, but you also go to the autopsies of, of all your murder cases. And so while you're there, you're literally surrounded by, you know, dozens and scores of, of other deaths. It's just, you become very accustomed to it.

[00:28:22] And for the most part, it's not, it's not the death. It's not being around the bodies that, that, that is the knockout punch, the, the, the dead kids, you know, the dead cops, those are the ones, those are the cases that have this accumulation that really start to

[00:28:42] grate on you. I think it's, you know, a combination of, of that and the overall, just being in the presence of death constantly that, that eventually wears you out. And, and to your question, what Mark had said to me, and I think it was when I was leaving,

[00:28:59] because when I left, I mean, I felt ashamed, you know, like, oh my God, I can't finish the job. You know, I, they're sending me to the sideline and, and I felt, you know, ashamed and disappointed

[00:29:11] in myself. And, but you know, like Mark said, he goes, you know, buddy goes, some people work this job forever. Some, some can't, some don't. And he goes, I honestly believe that we all have a

[00:29:23] number, you know, a certain number of, of, you know, cases and deaths that, that, you know, we can handle. And, and it's that number is different for everyone. And, you know, if you're

[00:29:35] done, you're done. And like I said, I, I had a, I got my neck broke in an altercation and homicide guys don't usually get altercations, but me and my partner got a caught alive on one day and

[00:29:47] ended up in this fight that, that I had a, a ruptured two discs in my neck. And so I, I ended up having surgery once and I returned to work and I, I felt like, you know, okay, I'm still

[00:30:03] okay. I've got a fusion in my neck, but I'm okay. And, and what I didn't realize is how much the stress of the job would affect my wellbeing as far as my neck and back. And, and that was the

[00:30:16] interesting thing is, is it was only a couple of years after that surgery, that first surgery that I started kind of living with unbearable pain and it was mostly stress related. And,

[00:30:29] and, and sometimes the stress would cause my neck to completely lock up where I couldn't turn my head. And that's how I ended up retiring. The, the last day that I was a cop in LA was, I was

[00:30:44] going to a case, kind of an interesting case, but and I start my memoir off with this particular scene, you know, it's a, it's a human head hanging on in a tree just ahead. And I'm, I'm

[00:30:57] going to this case and there was just this, this so much stress at the time with everything else going on. And I'm on the freeway dealing with traffic kind of hauling ass up the Long Beach

[00:31:09] freeway. And I go to change lanes. I glance over my shoulder and my, my neck locked up. And I literally was stuck looking over my shoulder while I'm driving and, and had to turn my whole

[00:31:21] body. And, and, and I used to go through these, you know, forced relaxation exercises to get my, my neck to unlock when that happened. But that was the day that I realized that, that I'm done.

[00:31:35] I can't keep doing this. I'm killing myself. So it was that, that's how I ended up leaving. And, and then of course, you know, when I, when I went to, to my doctor about it, my, the,

[00:31:48] my orthopedic surgeon, he is the one that said, you know, I think, I think you need to see someone else too. And he sent me to the shrink because he said, you know, I, you definitely have stress as a

[00:31:59] major factor in what you're going through. And so it also turned out I had another ruptured disc and didn't know it. So I was dealing with that and, and had to have a second neck surgery. So that was when it was, you're definitely done.

[00:32:15] I want to talk about some of the mental health issues, PTSD, suicide, things like that in the wider context of, of sort of law enforcement work. But first before we get to that, I'd love

[00:32:25] to know, you know, when you look back on your days as a homicide investigator, are there any other cases that you worked on that really kind of come to mind as particularly memorable or interesting?

[00:32:35] Oh, yeah. I mean, there are lots of them. I was involved in, in, in the investigation of several murdered cops and those, those are just awful. And then, like I said, the kids,

[00:32:50] the kids always get to you. And I, and I had many, many of those. One in particular that, that probably took the greatest toll on me was a four-year-old girl that was thrown off a cliff

[00:33:02] by her biological father. And that case haunted my partner and I for, for a couple of years. He was eventually convicted, but that was a very, very difficult case. I had a couple of very,

[00:33:15] very interesting cases including a no body case out in the desert. Actually two, I had two different no body cases and both cases we ended up discovering the remains before trial. But,

[00:33:29] but those are very, very difficult, tough cases. And we worked on those. Probably one of the most interesting cases. And I, and I talk about all these cases, all these different cases in my,

[00:33:41] in my memoir called Nothing Left to Prove. But there was a really tragic murder that I handled. It was a 61-year-old Native American who was murdered by skinheads out in the Antelope Valley,

[00:33:56] which is the Northern part of LA County, desert region, high desert region. And, and he was basically set up by his girlfriend who was the mother of one of the skinheads.

[00:34:10] And they were all dopers. And it was just a wildly tragic case. He was, he was set up, he was beaten, robbed, kidnapped, tortured and burned alive in the trunk of his own car. And

[00:34:25] that was just a horrific case, just horrible. But yeah, there, there's lots of them. I mean, you know, that's why you got to write a book. But people need to read your book because I mean,

[00:34:38] that is, I mean, that's incredible, but you can also see why that piling up again and again would be so detrimental. They do. I mean, it does take its toll. I mean, I think, I think most guys,

[00:34:50] you know, you talk about the mental health and it's not just guys that were convicted. I mean, police work in general, you know, well, truthfully all first responders, you deal with so much that it changes you and it definitely has an effect on you, a long-term effect. And

[00:35:07] I mentioned cop suicides in that, in that episode, you know, that, that we have more cop suicides than line of duty deaths every year. And tragically there's not been much improvement.

[00:35:22] I think we're better now than, than we were when, when I first hired on the job in the early eighties, you know, as far as being able to talk about these things. But, but that was part of, part of my

[00:35:34] goal in writing the book is that I wanted to say, Hey, don't be ashamed of this. You know, we all hurt, we break, we cry and, and, and our, our macho, you know, tendencies aren't good in that

[00:35:51] way. You know, we need to talk and they'll send you to a shrink, you know, you get in a shooting and they send you to the department shrink and, and he asks you some questions and you say, I'm

[00:36:00] fine. And that's that, you know, but the truth is that the cops have always, you know, hidden their emotions. And, you know, I remember when I was, when I was a young guy first starting to look

[00:36:18] at law enforcement as a career, there was an old Sergeant that told me, you know, Hey, you know, crawl into a bottle of booze. I'll never forget that expression. It was kind of a,

[00:36:27] uh, the, the conversation was about coping and, and, you know, and truthfully that's how it used to be. It's like, and through out most of my career, I mean, you know, I don't know if they

[00:36:39] still do it. I heard, I heard they don't, I heard there's not a lot of guys that do this anymore, but all through my career, that's cops drink after work, you know, that was our coping mechanism.

[00:36:48] We'd get together and go drink. And usually it was in places like either a cop bar or a park or somewhere where you're just among other cops. There's this isolation. And, and then when you

[00:37:00] leave the job, that's, that's where the problems can really manifest because now you don't have that same family and support system. You know, even if you stay in touch with guys, it's different.

[00:37:12] You're, you're outside now and you're not, you're not so part of it. So I've had quite a few former colleagues who have committed suicide and I've got others who, who have died and by

[00:37:24] drinking themselves to death. And they don't call that a suicide, but I mean, essentially that's what exactly what it is. And it's just, it's tough. So, you know, I hope that, that more people

[00:37:39] can start to recognize the effects of trauma, you know, on first responders and, and that, that somehow, you know, there's either there's more support there's it's getting better. Like I said, there's, there's definitely, there's cop line and these different, you know support systems that,

[00:37:57] that we try to help each other, but we have to be more aware of our companions, our friends, our colleagues, and recognize if they're going through something that's really, really dark and difficult. That's absolutely wild. That like some early on a Sergeant basically told you like

[00:38:14] coping mechanisms, well, develop a drinking problem. I mean, yeah, that's what we all do. Hey, you know, but it's, it's nice that there have been maybe more resources added to the,

[00:38:25] to the toolkit. And then maybe that sort of line of thinking is, is more in decline. What I'd be curious about is, is in your view, seeing that the problem still is, is so great in terms of,

[00:38:35] especially cop suicides and especially rates of PTSD and things like that. Are there other things other than just raising awareness and having those conversations that you feel could benefit the wider law enforcement or maybe even first responder community around this?

[00:38:53] Yeah, you know, I mean, for one, and I mean, it's the obvious, but it's overlooked is, is a healthy lifestyle. You know the truth is when you're depressed, booze is not the right

[00:39:04] answer. And yet it tends to be the crutch that, that many of us use. I, you know, I'm a big proponent for exercise, you know, and, and I think that you have to have coping mechanisms,

[00:39:18] a healthy lifestyle and a solid support system. And that was, that was part of, of my blessing in this thing that I went through is that, you know, I got lucky and married the exact person

[00:39:32] I was supposed to marry. She's just the best on earth. I call her the trophy wife. I also call her the warden, but, but you know, it just depends on the mood, but you know, she just, she's perfect.

[00:39:44] And she was there for me. And, and you know, I mentioned the title of my book, Nothing Left to Prove. And in that book, I explained that toward the end, I explained the title came from

[00:39:54] her trying to get me through that very dark time when I, when I was told that I'm done, you know, that it's time to retire. And it was so traumatic for me to go through that.

[00:40:06] And, and she was, we were having a conversation and she said, you know, she goes, she goes, you just need to accept it and to, to realize that you don't, you have nothing left to prove,

[00:40:18] you know, you've, you've done enough. And, and it was a really heavy thing. And I, I always remembered her saying that. And, and then years later, because it took me a long time

[00:40:29] before I was willing to write that book, almost 15 years before I started even working on it. And I'd written all these several novels before I even started working on that book.

[00:40:38] When I, when I did start writing it, there was no question that was going to be the title because it was, it was the biggest part of, like I said, my recovery was having this support system,

[00:40:48] you know, and I had to have a beautiful family. And, and that was what I recognize of, this is something that, you know, I have to fight for now. And, and for me to be there for my family,

[00:41:01] I've got to fight through this darkness that I, that I'm dealing with. And it wasn't easy. It was, it was difficult. Absolutely. What would be your advice for someone in law enforcement today who might be struggling

[00:41:13] with something like PTSD or who may be, you know, considering leaving, who may be freshly gone from, from their agency? Like how, what sort of advice would you have for them having gone through that yourself?

[00:41:27] Well, okay. So there's two parts to that. The, if, if someone just advice for everyone leaving law enforcement, you have to have something else to do. That's the number one thing. You can't just stop and, and not have mental and physical challenges to fill the void. You know,

[00:41:48] cops, cops are very challenged throughout their careers, very intense career. And when you leave there, you have to do something to keep your mind and body moving and, and exercised. And,

[00:42:05] you know, I like I said, I started a company and I ran that for 18 years. You know, I've got, I've got several hobbies that I love. And then, you know, I started writing, I actually started

[00:42:15] writing when I first left. And the way I started writing was my, my shrink basically, after reading some of the things that I had submitted to him, he said, you ought to write for a living. You're,

[00:42:25] you're a really good writer. And I kind of blew it off, but, but he encouraged me. He said, you know, seriously, he goes, it's very therapeutic to write. And that's what I found.

[00:42:34] I, it was very true. And I think a lot of other people have discovered this, but even if you don't write to publish a book, writing is extremely therapeutic. It's almost, it's almost

[00:42:46] like you're just kind of, you know, unplugging the drain and letting things go, letting them go through your words, you know, and you're sometimes I say you're bleeding on the pages, you know?

[00:42:58] And, and in my memoir, I did, I mean, my memoir, I definitely bled all over a lot of those pages, bled and cried and everything else. And it was very therapeutic when it was, when it was done.

[00:43:08] I felt so much better, you know? So, but you have to have something to do. And, and, you know, I also play golf and if that's what you're going to do, do it, do it every day. And then you,

[00:43:20] you begin to have new friendships and new groups of people. And now all of a sudden, you're not always around other cops. In fact, most of the time you're not, and that's healthy too.

[00:43:32] That's very healthy to re-assimilate because let's face it, cops, you get to where you don't want to be around civilians throughout your career just because it's, it's difficult. And you know that people don't understand you, you know? I mean, you literally, you go to a party

[00:43:51] and, and, you know, someone introduces you and says, oh yeah, he's, he's a cop. And you cringe when that happens. You don't want people to introduce you as a cop. And the next thing,

[00:44:01] you know, you got this dipshit, you know, asking you, oh, have you ever seen a dead body or something stupid? Or how many people have you shot? That's, that's the one that everyone wants

[00:44:10] to ask you, you know? And so cops just naturally avoid, you know, those types of settings and situations. You, you, you search for the comfort of, you know, companionship among your own. But when you retire, you're going to, you're going to feel this vacancy in your life

[00:44:31] because it's not just a job. It's, it's who you were. And, and there's, there's this identity that suddenly is washed away from you. And that's the hardest part for cops leaving the job.

[00:44:42] So you have to replace it. You have to have something that, that really grabs your interest, that continues to drive you to get up early in the morning. You know, my preference is get up

[00:44:54] early in the morning and first thing, go exercise, you know, get a workout and do something because that's as healthy as you can be, you know, as far as mental and physical, but then

[00:45:03] have things that keep you busy all day. Don't, don't sit at home and watch TV and, you know, look at your watch and go, well, it's two o'clock. I can start drinking. You know, that's, that's not what you want to do. So. 00.50

[00:45:17] Absolutely. I really like what you said about writing being a way to sort of process things. And I'm curious in your works of fiction, specifically the Dickie Floyd and Rich Ferris series, how are you able to sort of process your law enforcement experience

[00:45:32] and career through the lens of like a fictional story? 00.51 The reason that, that it took me a long time to write the memoir is because, because you have to confront the truth and with the fiction, you have complete control

[00:45:47] of every part of it. And that's, so that's a safe zone. You know what I mean? Like I'm telling the stories and I, I'll tell them however I want and I'll have the outcome that I want. And,

[00:45:58] you know, it's, it's, you're not dealing with reality and you're not even dealing with, you know, baggage and stuff. And yes, I, I based a lot of my novels certainly are based on my experiences. Some of the stories are loosely based on things that,

[00:46:16] that I've experienced or witnessed. Some of the characters are based on people that I've worked with. And, and I've, I've been asked that question a hundred times, you know, in my writing career.

[00:46:27] And I say, yeah, they are. And the reason why is because I don't, no writer can create more interesting characters than the people I've worked with. I mean, there is, that's just a fact

[00:46:38] that the people, and I think every cop would tell you that there's just, there's certain, there's certain characters they're drawn to place work and, and every, every station, every, every department, you know, they have them. And every cop can sit there and just think of some

[00:46:54] of the people that they've worked with and think, yeah, that guy would be, it'd be a great character for a book. So yeah, I do that. I based some of my characters on people I've worked with. And

[00:47:04] it also helps you develop, you know, that, that deep character, the development of a character where you really get the 3d look at them because you're thinking about an actual person and you can, you can think of, you know, their little characteristics. So. Absolutely. Being a former

[00:47:24] homicide investigator, are there any sort of tropes or common, I guess, cliches in crime fiction that drive you nuts and that you try not to include in your own book? Yeah, there's a lot,

[00:47:34] there's a lot of them truthfully. I mean, you know, cops are, are probably the biggest critics of, you know, police shows and police books. And there's a lot of them that I just can't read

[00:47:47] because, uh, and I, and I'm a, an avid reader obviously, but, uh, there's, there's a lot of crime fiction books that I just can't read because they're just so out there, just, just so far out

[00:48:01] there. Yeah. I try to avoid, you know, the, the cliches that they're common in Hollywood. One of the things that, that a lot of people have always said about my books, my novels is that, um, uh,

[00:48:16] very authentic, you know, and, and that's what I strive for the authenticity. And when I'm, when I'm writing, I mean, there's, there's a heaviness to some of the scenes that, that you just aren't going to pick up in, in, in books that are written by someone who's

[00:48:32] never done the job. I mean, they can describe it, you know, some of the big authors have, uh, you know, cops that are their advisors and, and they tell them, you know, the things that,

[00:48:42] that they go through. But if you haven't lived it, I don't think you quite portray the true emotions of certain scenes and situations. And that's, that's where, you know, some of my novels, there's, there's definitely some very, very heavy scenes in them and,

[00:48:59] and people read them and go, Oh, I feel like this guy lived through something very similar to that. Absolutely. And then I wanted to ask about a project like Homicide Los Angeles. Um, can you

[00:49:11] tell me about how you sort of came to get involved with that and sort of, um, what it was like sort of telling your story and telling your experience for a large production like that? Yeah. I mean,

[00:49:21] it was great. I don't know how I got involved in it. I think, I think actually Mark or Karen Shaka, someone mentioned me to the producers when they were starting to put the case, the, uh,

[00:49:31] the show together. And I got a call from Shannon Rourke, I believe it was. And she asked me if I was interested in doing it. And I said, yeah, sure. You know, I I've done, like I said, I do

[00:49:40] a lot of podcasts. I've, I've done a few other documentaries. I did a Netflix deal or a, uh, not Netflix. It was, um, stars. It was on the stars network. They did a deal called the wrong

[00:49:52] man. And I was, I was, uh, involved in that. So I've done a lot of them. And, and the reason that I, that I do them quite frankly is because as an author, you know, I, I like the name recognition.

[00:50:05] You know, I want, I want to have the publicity of it. Same reason I go and speak at different events, but it sounded fun. And especially when it was pitched to me, they said, you know, this is,

[00:50:15] this is really going to be a lot about the personalities, not just the case, but the inner workings of the, the, the people involved in these cases and the relationships. And I thought,

[00:50:27] you know what? That sounds, that sounds really cool. So yeah, I was, I was excited to do it. I had fun doing it. It was a very, very long day and I can't believe how much filming we did

[00:50:37] compared to, uh, how much they put on the, you know, the, the cut for there. I mean, those guys must have waiters on to, to, you know, get through all the film on the floor, but

[00:50:47] it was fun. It was, it was interesting and I enjoy doing it. And I personally thought that, that the show turned out really well, all five episodes. I'm only in the first two episodes,

[00:50:57] but I'm proud of my former colleagues and they're all friends. Almost everyone on that show were people that I've worked with, you know, former colleagues. And it was fun. In fact,

[00:51:09] I told Karen the other day, I was texting with Karen Schaka and I said, man, I wish I would have been back down in LA for the, uh, for the last scene at the end of the last episode where

[00:51:19] they get everyone together and they're in a bar and they're just bullshitting. And I, like, you know, that would have been, I would have enjoyed being part of that, but you know, I ran away from home. So

[00:51:32] There you go. Um, well, yeah, people, anyone who's listening, who is interested can watch that on Netflix. It's really good having seen it myself and where can people buy your books,

[00:51:42] Danny? You can get them Amazon or, or a Barnes and Noble, but, uh, Amazon is probably my biggest seller. And, um, and I do sell direct, uh, for people who want signed copies. I typically do

[00:51:56] that on a new release and, you know, because some people like to sign copies. I, I, I enjoy doing it. It's a lot of work, but Amazon, Danny R Smith and, um, all my books are there. I've got,

[00:52:08] I think 10 published books now, nine novels and a memoir. And I've got another book that I'm really excited about. It's it's coming out should be the very first part of September when it gets

[00:52:18] published. And it's a, it's different every, all the other novels I've written have been detective novels, which, you know, go figure. Right. But, um, I decided that I wanted to write a, uh,

[00:52:30] patrol novel, a street cop book, you know, kind of Wamba Esque. And I went back to the eighties and wrote this, this book about street cops in the eighties and South LA. And, um, and it was,

[00:52:45] it's a, it was a fun book to write and I'm excited about it. And, uh, my beta readers have absolutely gone crazy and said that they love it. So I just got the cover finished the other day.

[00:52:55] And my cover artist got back to me and, and that's been completed and I'm excited about that. So that'll be coming out soon. You can follow me, uh, you know, on Amazon, follow the author,

[00:53:07] or you can go to my page and follow me. I've got, um, a website that's either Dickie Floyd novels.com or the, the murder memo.com. And all my books are listed on there with links of how

[00:53:19] to get to them and everything. But pretty much if you just Google Danny R Smith books, you'll, you'll find me. I'm, I'm kind of all over the place. Awesome. And yeah, that, that sounds very intriguing. You're like returning to your

[00:53:31] original roots with patrol and I, I love Joseph Wambach, so I will. Oh yeah. Who doesn't right? I think the onion field may be the best book about a crime ever. Like that might be my favorite release, but anyways.

[00:53:44] Oh God. So I'll tell you about the onion field. I read it before I was a cop and, and it was interesting. Oh yeah. That book was written. Uh, I don't even remember what year

[00:53:54] now, but late seventies, early eighties. I read that book before I became a cop and, and, and it was, it was eyeopening and educational and intense. But, uh, I'll tell you what, I read it again after

[00:54:08] I retired here, not too many years ago, and it was completely different. It was so much heavier. It was so difficult to read it because now all of my experiences and standing over dead cops and dealing with that type of, uh, investigation and the, the, you know,

[00:54:28] resulting criminal prosecutions and the trials. It just, it was a difficult book to read. Um, after my career, but it is, it is a great book and something everyone should read. I'll tell you another Wambach book that a lot of people don't even know about.

[00:54:44] Well, I shouldn't say they don't know about it, but it's not as well publicized as the blooding. The blooding is just an absolutely fabulous. If not, it might be my favorite

[00:54:54] Wambach book ever. And it's a true story about the first time DNA was used in a criminal case. And it was, yeah, it was, and it was in, um, Oh, I forget what part of England, but it's,

[00:55:07] it's, you know, across the pond over there. And he just did a remarkable job of writing this book. And it's, it's a fabulous story. Just riveting. Fabulous. He's so good. And yeah. And then actually it's interesting to the onion field does kind of get

[00:55:23] into like the kind of impact of trauma and sort of what that big time. Yeah. To people. Um, so I wanted to ask you before we go, I know only have a minute left, but, um, is there anything

[00:55:35] I didn't ask you about, about any of this, about homicide, Los Angeles, about your books, about your experiences in law enforcement that you wanted to mention, or you think would be important for folks to understand? I can't think of anything. I'll probably think of something an

[00:55:50] hour after we say goodbye, but I mean, off, off top of my head, I mean, I think we covered an awful lot and, um, and I would just say, you know, uh, for anyone interested in, in true crime

[00:56:02] and law enforcement investigations. Yeah. The, the series is great. And, um, and I really enjoyed it. In fact, now I'm going to go watch the New York series, you know, from the first season, uh,

[00:56:15] because I didn't, I didn't watch that. I don't even think I knew about it. I don't watch a ton of TV, you know, I, I have so many things that I'm doing, but, but I'm going to go back and watch

[00:56:25] that next. Cause, uh, I thought, I thought they did a great job. I really did. Yeah. It's funny. When I mentioned to my parents that we were doing this, we're really excited about this interview

[00:56:37] at, they were like, we were just watching the New York season. So I feel like, uh, I need to go back and watch that too. Cause I'm originally from New York. Oh, are you okay? I'll tell you what I had.

[00:56:46] Um, in fact, another reason I should watch it is, was one of my cases, um, when I was working to New York chasing a killer. And, and I, um, believed he was going to be found in Brooklyn

[00:57:00] and I hooked up with the Brooklyn cold case squad back there. And, uh, those guys, I, I had so much fun working with them and, and I spent four or five days back there and, and they were some of

[00:57:13] the best cops I'd ever worked with anywhere, any place. And there's just something about those New York precincts. You can't even describe it truthfully, but it's just so nostalgic and, and the characters are so rich and deep, you know, it just, and they're, and they're great guys. I

[00:57:31] really, really had a good time. And that was shortly before nine 11. And, um, and I remember when I 11 happened, I was just, I was floored because I'm thinking about, you know, the friends

[00:57:42] that I'd, I'd met there and, and, uh, just, you know, praying for everybody. Of course, you know, I mean, we all were, but, but it even, you know, like you being from New York, there's,

[00:57:53] it means more when there's a, a, a real connection. And, uh, so that was, yeah, intense. Absolutely. And, and Danny, this has been so great. We did, we appreciate coming on the show and talking about your experience. We had a really, I had a wonderful time speaking with

[00:58:10] you. So I just really appreciate it and want to thank you. Well, I appreciate you having me on. It's a lot of fun. Thank you very much for inviting me. Thank you. Awesome. Again, Danny mentioned previously that if you're a law enforcement officer experiencing mental health

[00:58:24] issues, COPLINE provides a 24 hour hotline. It is staffed by retired law enforcement officers. The number is 1-800-267-5463. Thanks so much to Danny for taking the time to talk with us. We really enjoyed the conversation. Check out Homicide Los Angeles on Netflix and we'll include

[00:58:45] links to Danny's books in our show notes. Thanks so much for listening to The Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us at murdersheetatgmail.com. If you have actionable information about an unsolved crime,

[00:59:04] please report it to the appropriate authorities. If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com slash murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests,

[00:59:21] you can do so at www.buymeacoffee.com slash murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support. Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for The Murder Sheet, and who you can find on the web at kevintg.com.

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