A Conversation with Scott Turow, Author of Presumed Guilty

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[00:01:45] [SPEAKER_02] Here at the Murder Sheet, we are huge fans of the author, Scott Turow. His first novel, Presumed Innocent, came out back in 1987 and introduced readers to the lawyers of Kendall County. In the years since, Turow has published many more novels, rich and gripping legal thrillers, each one well worth reading.

[00:02:06] [SPEAKER_00] Even if you haven't read any of his books, you still may have met some of his characters. Presumed Innocent was made into a successful film starring Harrison Ford, and just last year was also adapted into a television series on Apple+. That story focused on Rusty Savage, a prosecutor facing a murder trial for the death of his lover.

[00:02:26] [SPEAKER_02] Turow returns to Rusty's story in his latest novel, Presumed Guilty, and you don't need to have read any of Turow's earlier novels in order to fully appreciate it. Now, a much older Rusty has settled down in a rural part of his state. He seems to have found true love at last. But there's a pretty big complication. The African-American son of Rusty's fiancé is charged with murdering his girlfriend. And he wants Rusty to defend him in court.

[00:02:56] [SPEAKER_00] Scott was kind enough to take the time to talk with us about the new novel, the stresses of trial work, and how a prosecutor knows when he's ready to move into criminal defense. My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist.

[00:03:09] [SPEAKER_02] And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney. And this is The Murder Sheet. We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases.

[00:03:21] [SPEAKER_00] We're The Murder Sheet.

[00:03:22] [SPEAKER_02] And this is A Conversation with Scott Turow, author of Presumed Guilty.

[00:04:12] [SPEAKER_02] Well, we're here to discuss your newest novel, which is Presumed Guilty. It's absolutely a terrific book. It continues the story that, I guess, ultimately began in your very first novel, which you famously wrote on commuter trains back in Chicago. Can you tell us what inspired this particular story, the story of a person who was presumed guilty?

[00:04:37] [SPEAKER_03] I carried around with me for several years a thought, which is hardly original about what happens inside a family when somebody is accused of a terrible crime. And I just, I think it's not, again, it's not the first time I've written about this,

[00:05:01] [SPEAKER_03] but it always puts the conflict between family loyalties and the absolute declarations of the law in conflict. So the parents love the child no matter what. And, you know, the law says if the child's done wrong, the child must be punished. So, you know, that always appealed to me.

[00:05:28] [SPEAKER_03] And when I carry these thoughts around for long periods of time, I'm always trying to find the character who fits the situation. And, you know, the idea of going back to Rusty, the idea that I was going to go back to Rusty for a third time has, you know, I thought after Innocent, the second book in this, what is now,

[00:05:55] [SPEAKER_03] triplet of novels about him, that I thought I would do it. And then, so I began to think, well, I guess now is the moment. And that's where the idea began to grow. And, you know, for many years, Adrian and I have, but particularly since the pandemic, we spent most of our time back in the Middle West

[00:06:20] [SPEAKER_03] living in rural Wisconsin, where, you know, we've long had a family home. And I've had the idea again for a while that, well, I'd like to do something in this setting, which is, you know, seems less familiar to me in contemporary fiction. So that's how all these things came together. And I guess that's a pretty fair explanation of what happened next.

[00:06:50] [SPEAKER_02] It, the setting, which is most of your books are in Kendall County. As you say, this is a different setting that is not what you usually see in contemporary fiction. And as someone who spends some time in that sort of environment, you really did capture it well. Why do you suppose that setting is not used more by contemporary writers?

[00:07:15] [SPEAKER_03] Probably because our writers, to a large extent, end up hanging out together. And that's usually in urban settings, you know, probably, you know, some good fraction of the people in the United States who call themselves writers can be found either in New York or L.A. So there are fewer people who are living in, you know, more rural environments.

[00:07:43] [SPEAKER_03] And I think the simple answer to the question you asked, Kevin, is just they're less familiar with it. It's not where they're living. They may have started out there, but it's not where they're living now.

[00:07:53] [SPEAKER_00] Was it a challenge for you to break out of Kendall County? I mean, that has become such a sort of a rich venue for you, this fictional county where so many of your characters are based. So was it a bit of a challenge to kind of get out of that and kind of create a whole new place?

[00:08:08] [SPEAKER_03] It would have been if I hadn't been, you know, I first bought this house in, you know, southeastern Wisconsin more than 30 years ago. And, you know, it's a place where my kids, you know, not only did they grow up coming there, but they still return there now with their children, which delights me to no end. So I'd been observing that environment for at least three decades. And so it wasn't all that hard.

[00:08:37] [SPEAKER_03] What's odd is what I hope the novel captures, which is this is an area that's neither, you know, betwixt nor between. You know, in one end of it, there's this very well-to-do summer enclave, which is actually Lake Geneva, Wisconsin. And then, but you don't have to go that far and you really, you know, you're amid the soybean fields and the corn fields.

[00:09:05] [SPEAKER_03] And then on the far eastern side of the place where I actually, you know, spent part of the year on the far eastern side, there's the city of Kenosha, which is one of those typical Midwestern former factory towns that has, you know, been hollowed out by the economic losses of the last several decades.

[00:09:31] [SPEAKER_03] You know, again, as an environment, I think it's really, it's really interesting. Probably not all that commonplace. They have the rich on one end and the poor on the other, but obviously it suits a novelist well.

[00:09:45] [SPEAKER_00] So you're not just writing about the setting, you're actually writing about the legal culture of this kind of place. And can you tell us kind of what research went into that and sort of how you were able to capture that in a way that felt so real?

[00:09:58] [SPEAKER_03] Again, it's, you know, it's having been there and it's, you know, involved in everything from having to sue a contractor who is contractors sometimes do end up disappointing. And being involved occasionally very low level with some criminal cases as a lawyer and, you know, observing what went on with one of my wife's traffic tickets up there.

[00:10:28] [SPEAKER_03] So I had a kind of thorough, if slow education in what goes on in the courts up there.

[00:10:35] [SPEAKER_02] This is, you mentioned, this is the third book that focuses on Rusty. So I actually went back and I reread the first two before I read this one. And a couple of things struck me. First of all, obviously Presumed Innocent and Innocent are great novels. I loved Presumed Innocent so much when it was published, you know, I became a fan of yours for life.

[00:10:56] [SPEAKER_02] But it occurs to you when I'm rereading these books, each one is better and richer than the one before it. And I really feel that this book is frankly the best of the three. So that struck me. And the other thing that struck me is when you write about Kindle County, it's you almost like Balzac because you have this huge cast of characters that drift in and out of these novels.

[00:11:24] [SPEAKER_02] And when I read these three books back to back, it all fits. How do you keep all of that stuff straight?

[00:11:33] [SPEAKER_03] One of the, I mean, first of all, I do the simple thing, you know, as you did, Kevin, and I reread the books. So I remind myself what I said before, you know, and I've goofed sometimes when I've, you know, come back to books and, you know, casts of characters.

[00:11:53] [SPEAKER_03] When I, I think I was writing the last trial and somebody pointed out to me that Marta Stern, who's Sandy Stern's daughter, I gave her a different husband in an earlier book than I was giving her in that. So I do, I do make mistakes, but generally speaking, and as I was about to say, one of the things that fear most about aging is that I have a terrific memory for those kinds of things.

[00:12:21] [SPEAKER_03] So, you know, and of course, as you get older, it's not quite as fresh in your mind as it once was. But, you know, it really is sort of melded together in my head. It's a concrete place.

[00:12:36] [SPEAKER_00] You know, just for folks who might be listening, you know, Rusty goes from being a prosecutor to a judge and has a lot of traumatic happenings happen to him along the way, I guess. And you've put him through a lot over the years. But as we're sort of reintroduced to Rusty, you know, can you just kind of tell us about how, you know, this iteration of the character might be a little different? He's maybe a little older, maybe a little wiser. Can you just talk through that a little bit?

[00:13:04] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah, well, I mean, you know, fair point that he's been, he's had fabulous misfortune that certainly in the first two novels. And by the end of Innocent, which as Presumed Guilty reveals, each of these is meant to be a standalone.

[00:13:26] [SPEAKER_03] But Presumed Guilty does reveal that at the end of Innocent, he's been released after a brief stint in prison. And he comes away from that experience as a true legal burnout and a burnout on Kindle County in general.

[00:13:46] [SPEAKER_03] You know, whether it was his fault or not, he really feels that that's an environment that for whatever reason has led him to lead a pretty disappointing life. And he's gone into refuge in this place where, a little like me, he's always had this little family cabin.

[00:14:09] [SPEAKER_03] And he goes up there really feeling somewhat misanthropic and eager for the isolation and lives that way for a while. Well, but eventually he meets a woman, a good deal younger than he is, but, you know, a very solid human being well set in her life.

[00:14:36] [SPEAKER_03] Something happens in their relationship that he recognizes is better, better for him, makes him much more who he wants to be and some more fulfilling love than what he's experienced earlier in his life. And because of that, you know, he has a certain sense of achievement in the way he's living.

[00:15:04] [SPEAKER_03] He's, he's, he's, he's come out of the shell that he put over himself. He's increasingly a member of this rural community. His wife to be is a grade school principal. And it all seems to be going well for him. He really feels, you know, revivified, not necessarily his age.

[00:15:34] [SPEAKER_03] Although he's 77 by the time the main action of the book commences or about to become 77. And, you know, but he's feeling younger than his years and really, if not excited, very eager to live what's left of his life in, you know, in, in this setting and with this particular person.

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[00:17:57] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, as you say that, it reminds me there's a scene relatively early on in the book, so this is not giving away any spoilers, where he goes to a, I believe it's a bar, to try to find someone. And he is talking to someone there who has a dog that has just died. And he talks about how this is a dog that was like, had a terrible life, was beaten and abused.

[00:18:23] [SPEAKER_02] But then the dog is put into a home where the dog is shown love, and the dog was just incredibly grateful for that. And in some way, is that what happened to Rusty?

[00:18:33] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. Well, I really hadn't thought about it that way, Kevin, but you're right. You know, you're right. And, you know, thematically, you know, the book does start with the idea of redemption, that things can get better in our lives. It sort of goes against the grain of contemporary assumptions.

[00:18:55] [SPEAKER_03] But in point of fact, you know, if you're both self-revealing and self-knowing, hopefully, you can avoid making the same mistakes you've made before.

[00:19:07] [SPEAKER_03] And while the dog has far less choice about the environment in which he arrives, he's at least smart enough, as dogs always seem to be, to really appreciate, you know, the humans who are kind to him.

[00:19:25] [SPEAKER_02] I was reading an essay you wrote for Crime Reads a while ago, and you said if a novel is really going well, there's usually a character who kind of runs away with it. And I'm curious. Was there a character that ran away with this novel?

[00:19:38] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah, I think Joe, B is Aaron's, B is Rusty's fiancee. And her father is Joe, who is a, you know, sort of hard-grained local who really is a misfit, who hasn't, but hasn't wanted to be a misfit. So his background is his father was a Mexican migrant.

[00:20:07] [SPEAKER_03] His mother was a member of the, what we now call the Winnebago Nation. And, you know, he was raised through many of his younger years living as a child of migrant workers. But, you know, he's sort of always wanted to fit in. And he has.

[00:20:33] [SPEAKER_03] But in a very stubborn and sometimes very angry way. And he was just one of those characters who, as I started to write, sort of came out whole. You know, and it's everything that's infuriating about him, the being his child. You know, he's shamelessly inconsistent in whatever he says.

[00:20:58] [SPEAKER_03] And he's one of these wounded people who can never stand to admit that he's wrong. So he's always right, you know, no matter what he's done and where he's been. And, you know, he's just one of those characters who was like, oh, I know this guy. Don't ask me why I know this guy, but I know this guy.

[00:21:19] [SPEAKER_00] I think we all know a Joe for sure. I was curious, you know, at the heart of this book is a murder trial. And one thing I found in your works, you know, we've covered actual murder trials. Oftentimes the public does not realize that a lot of elements of those are a lot more mundane than is shown on TV.

[00:21:42] [SPEAKER_00] But you manage this kind of alchemy where you're able to make it feel very realistic in that, like, nothing's happening that's a ridiculous sort of, you know, legal fiction. It's all feels grounded, but it's still very compelling. And I'm just, how do you do that?

[00:21:59] [SPEAKER_03] Well, another long-winded answer. But, you know, I've always been impressed by how similar movie making is to trying cases. And, you know, when the Apple series of Presumed Innocent was being filmed, Adrian and I went to the set.

[00:22:23] [SPEAKER_03] And I was shocked at how much she liked it because most people arrive on a movie set and going, wait a minute, I just saw this scene. Now they're going to film it again. And they film it again. And then a sixth time and a seventh time. And it's like, what the hell is the difference? This is like watching paint dry. And trying cases, of course, is very much the same way.

[00:22:43] [SPEAKER_03] But I was convinced from the time I first started writing about trials, which was when I conceived of Presumed Innocent and began, as Kevin points out, writing on the commuter train. I believe that it was still an inherently dramatic process. And, of course, you know, at the end of the day, so is movie making. And that you have to avoid the repetition and the jargon and all the rest of it.

[00:23:10] [SPEAKER_03] But sometimes even in what seemed to be technical matters, you know, like jury instructions, there's actually a lot at stake. And if you can cut through the language and, you know, all the rituals that surround all of these things, you can begin to explain it, I think, to a popular audience.

[00:23:31] [SPEAKER_03] So that in Presumed Guilty, whether or not there's going to be a motion for mistrial becomes a somewhat dramatic development. And I've always been proud that people who try cases like my books, because there are, you know, there are moments for lawyers when, you know, when things happen that just, you know, would never happen in court.

[00:24:00] [SPEAKER_03] And, you know, my favorite example of this is I love and respect David E. Kelly and who was the, you know, leading creative spirit between behind the new version of Presumed Innocent. But years ago, I was watching one of David's shows. I think it was Boston Legal. And there was a peeping Tom who was being sentenced and the judge had him pull his pants down in the courtroom.

[00:24:28] [SPEAKER_03] And, you know, when I would talk to David about it, of course, he would say, that's drama. That's what that's what the audience wants to see. And I would say, but it would never happen in court. No matter how much the audience wants to see it, you know, what that dressing down has to be figurative, not literal.

[00:24:48] [SPEAKER_03] And so I've always tried to operate within those rules, but still try to preserve some of the drama that, you know, a great narrativist like David, you know, likes to exploit in the stuff that he puts so successfully on television.

[00:25:06] [SPEAKER_00] So one thing I wanted to ask you about was, you know, we see Rusty taking on a completely new role in this novel as defense attorney. He's been a prosecutor. He's been a judge. You yourself have been an assistant U.S. attorney as well as worked for the defense side. And I'm curious, you know, is it is it easy to cross over or do things about like your sort of legal muscle memory have to sort of fundamentally shift in order for you to kind of do both well?

[00:25:36] [SPEAKER_03] Well, there are some prosecutors who just can't do it. They're, you know, wedded to the worldview, which is not, you know, as a whole wrong that, you know, that that they're doing the right thing by prosecuting bad people. Then there are people like myself and many of my friends from the U.S. attorney's office.

[00:26:03] [SPEAKER_03] By the time you finish as a prosecutor, by the time you're ready to go, one of the things that sends you out the door is the recognition that the government is not always right. And I remember I was about halfway through my tenure as a prosecutor and my trial partner and I were trying to get a defendant to flip on his confederates.

[00:26:29] [SPEAKER_03] And we got into a heated discussion with the defense lawyer and we said, you know, this guy's going to end up doing time he doesn't have to do. Why won't he why won't he turn on his co-defendants? And the defense lawyer argued said, because the government doesn't have it right.

[00:26:54] [SPEAKER_03] And my trial partner who had been at it, you know, four or five years longer than I had and who remains one of my dear friends started shouting at the defense lawyer says, the government never has it right. He says, we've never got all the details where, you know, where they belong. And, you know, we think something is up when it was actually down. But that doesn't mean that we're wrong about the fundamentals, which is your client is guilty and so is the guy we want to testify against.

[00:27:20] [SPEAKER_03] And I sat there in shock of hearing my trial partner say, you know, the government never has it right. But once you cross that Rubicon and you realize that the government never has it completely right, you're ready to become a defense lawyer because that's the defense lawyer's job is to point out the ways in which the government doesn't have it right. And then the question becomes, is it wrong enough to raise a reasonable doubt?

[00:27:50] [SPEAKER_03] And so I was always happy to do that job. I felt like I was defending a vision of a human being, which is to say, if you were starting a justice system just to begin with, you would ask the question, OK, how is it at a minimum that we think a human being deserves to be treated before she or he is locked in a cell?

[00:28:18] [SPEAKER_03] And that I think of as the system of rights that we have. And so what you're defending, sometimes you're defending a complete bum. Very rarely you're defending somebody who is actually innocent or legally innocent, which is second best.

[00:28:37] [SPEAKER_03] But at all times, you're defending this idea of how we ought to treat a human being before they're subjected to, you know, this grave punishment that our society imposes on people who have done wrong. So for me, it wasn't especially hard. Rusty, I think, becomes a little surprised at how easy and natural it is to him.

[00:29:02] [SPEAKER_03] But he's thrilled throughout by the idea that, as he puts it, he's now going to have fulfilled every speaking role in the courtroom except the clerk who stands up to yell, hear ye, hear ye. So.

[00:29:17] [SPEAKER_02] Rusty in the novel, he feels the way you describe it. He feels like really alive in the courtroom, but it's like challenges him on every mental level. And even that anecdote you just shared, it's like you're really dealing with life and death matters are really quite vital to us all. Do you miss that kind of work?

[00:29:39] [SPEAKER_03] The short answer is no. And it's not that I didn't enjoy it. It's obvious that the experience is deeply imprinted on me in every way. But, you know, the last case I tried, I tried as a defense lawyer and the judge threw out the state's case at the close of the prosecution case. That was exactly what he should have done.

[00:30:07] [SPEAKER_03] They had failed to prove their case. And there had been, you know, one very dramatic moment where I had stood up while my partner was cross-examining the state's key witness. And I had said completely out of turn, but completely right. Your Honor, the witness is looking at the case agent before she answers every question. She's getting instructed on how to answer by the prosecutors.

[00:30:36] [SPEAKER_03] And, you know, the judge, of course, said, you know, Mr. Turrell, you're out of turn. Sit down and then turn to the witness and said, but he's right. That's exactly what you've been doing. OK, so we've had this dramatic, right, very triumphant moment. And then the judge flushes the case. He says, you know, I can't give any credibility to this witness. It's not a jury question.

[00:31:01] [SPEAKER_03] No one legally could believe somebody was clearly getting instructed in their answers by the prosecution. And ergo, I'm dismissing the case. And as I walked out of the courtroom, it's about 10 years ago now, and I thought to myself as I left, you know, I really don't need to do this again.

[00:31:24] [SPEAKER_03] And why, you know, first of all, it's rare on the defense side to win, and it's even rarer to win that completely, you know, where the judge sort of, you know, makes noises and, you know, gives the prosecutors the raspberries as he's throwing the case out. But, you know, I'd been there and I'd done it. It's a tremendous amount of work.

[00:31:48] [SPEAKER_03] I was the kind of person who always felt trying cases was taking a physical toll on me just because the amount of stress. And, you know, I was happy to reach the point where I said, I don't know who I've been trying to prove something to, probably myself, but I feel like I've done it and I can let this go. And it wasn't like I was never going to try a case after that if a case to try came along. But it didn't.

[00:32:19] [SPEAKER_03] And, and I was okay with that. So by the time I finally hung it up for good in, I think it was the, yeah, it was in 2020, in August of 2020, I was ready to let it go.

[00:32:32] [SPEAKER_00] Throughout the novel, you know, Rusty's under a tremendous amount of stress during this trial. I mean, understandably, not only is it a life or death matter for a young man, but that young man is the son of the woman he loves. So it's, it's obviously complicated. And you mentioned the toll that trying cases would take on you. I mean, in your experience as both prosecutor and defense attorney, how would you cope with the immense stress of some of these trials going through that?

[00:32:58] [SPEAKER_03] Not particularly well. Well, my, my ex-wife with whom, you know, I'm still pretty close. And we, we all had Thanksgiving together this year. Actually, the existence of presumed innocent has to do with how badly I handled the stress of being on trial.

[00:33:19] [SPEAKER_03] Uh, I was trying what was the premier case of my career as a prosecutor against, uh, a judge who'd been, you know, a candidate for the state Supreme Court, uh, was corrupt as the day was long. Um, but it was important to win this case. It was very important for my, my office and what I thought was right in the community and in terms of reforming the legal system there.

[00:33:43] [SPEAKER_03] And I had, um, at that point in my life, a kind of anemia in which I would become jaundiced when I was under a lot of stress and literally turn yellow. So, um, I, I was very yellow and my ex in order to lure me out of the courtroom said, you know what, why don't you take some time away from the law and finish that novel that you've been dragging around in your briefcase?

[00:34:11] [SPEAKER_03] And of course that was too tempting, uh, to refuse and thus began the end of my, my prosecutorial career. Um, but, uh, you know, I didn't sleep well. Um, you, you, I, my tendency was to work with every, through every waking hour. Um, you get so deeply involved in, uh, in cases that.

[00:34:41] [SPEAKER_03] Um, I remember I was on trial with my beloved and now, uh, departed former partner, Dwayne Quaini and another partner of ours who blessedly is still very much with us. Roger Heinrich. We were trying a civil case, but we weren't, it's like two o'clock in the morning. We're going through the logic of our case. And we realized not only do, does the other side's case make no sense. Neither does ours.

[00:35:11] [SPEAKER_03] And, and you can sometimes get so deep into that case that you're, you know, you're like, ah, there is no truth. What are we doing?

[00:35:23] [SPEAKER_02] Uh, I'm going to repeat a question. I think I asked you when we talked about suspect a couple of years ago, you have so many great stories. You've shared a couple of great anecdotes with us just now. Is there any possibility of you writing a memoir at some point?

[00:35:37] [SPEAKER_03] You know, uh, obviously Kevin, I think about it at, at this stage. Um, and I would certainly say the answer is, you know, yes, I would like to do it. You know, a dear friend of mine, Dave Barry wrote me yesterday and said, you know, I I've written a memoir and I'd like you to read it. And I thought, God, I can't wait to read this book. I really want, uh, he's, he's a good friend.

[00:36:04] [SPEAKER_03] Uh, and I, you know, I know some of what he's been through, but, you know, I'd love to see the way he presents this on the page. Um, and you know, I've, I've had some experiences that I think would be worth writing about. Uh, so I keep thinking I'm going to do it eventually, but, um, right now I'm thinking about another novel.

[00:36:29] [SPEAKER_03] So, but sooner or later I'll get there and go, okay, I got to do this or I'll never have the capacity to do it.

[00:36:36] [SPEAKER_02] As long as I'm asking questions that kind of look backward, uh, as a fan of your work, I'm aware that you wrote some short stories in the seventies. You wrote, uh, at least one or two novels in the seventies that have never been published. One about rent control. Are those ever going to be published?

[00:36:52] [SPEAKER_03] Well, the short answer to the books that were, that went unpublished is when I look back and read them to, there was a reason they went unpublished. Um, and, uh, it's not that the rent control book that you, the rent strike actually book. It's not that it couldn't have been published at the time, but I look at it now and just think, well, you know, I don't think that was as good as what I wrote subsequently.

[00:37:22] [SPEAKER_03] And I did lift small parts of it, uh, paragraph here in a paragraph there for, you know, the laws of our fathers, which was the fourth novel I wrote, which was kind of look back at the sixties. But I just, you know, it hurt like hell at the time that the, you know, rent strike book wasn't published.

[00:37:44] [SPEAKER_03] Uh, was on the other hand, the thing that got me interested in the law because I had to learn about landlord tenant law at that point. And I thought, God, this is really interesting. What's wrong with me that I would think something like the implied warranty of habitability is really interesting, but I, but I did.

[00:38:03] [SPEAKER_03] So, you know, uh, I, I, I'm not really one of those people who believes everything happens for a reason, but, um, there is certain cause and effect in a life. And, uh, yeah, it burned like hell, uh, when it happened, but, you know, I, I'm lucky enough to be able to say it turned out well.

[00:38:24] [SPEAKER_03] That doesn't mean it would for everybody, you know, um, there are people who get turned away in the life of the arts, uh, who deserve, uh, to have something foundational success and just don't, uh, and never get a chance to, to write or sculpt or paint or, um, you know, write the plays that they should write.

[00:38:48] [SPEAKER_03] Right. So, uh, I'm not saying it's all a good thing, but, uh, for me, that's a, that's a past that I feel like I surmounted.

[00:38:55] [SPEAKER_00] I want to turn back, uh, to presumed guilty for a second. And, um, one thing, no spoilers, but, uh, there's a, there's a huge debate in this book about, you know, whether or not a defendant should testify and what's the best thing. And I'm just curious, that's something we see a lot in, in, you know, cases we cover that this debate, um, can you talk about why that is such a big deal in criminal cases? Um, and, and why it's almost always a terrible idea for a defendant to testify.

[00:39:25] [SPEAKER_03] Well, what, what's difficult about it is what Rusty mentions, which is that according to this, you know, the statistical studies that have been done, about 70% of acquittals take place in cases where the defendant testifies.

[00:39:42] [SPEAKER_03] The problem as Rusty acknowledges is that that doesn't track and nobody knows how many cases in which, uh, the defendant testified where he made conviction more certain. In other words, who knows where the case was standing before in those other 30% of cases before the defendant got on the stand.

[00:40:06] [SPEAKER_03] The, the fundamental problem that Rusty recognizes is always your job as a defense lawyer is to remind the jury of the burden of proof and say the prosecution hasn't met it. Um, and no matter how dry and technical that sounds, uh, that, that's what you're trying to hammer home.

[00:40:31] [SPEAKER_03] Um, uh, and the characters in my novels have always found a way to express that as saying, we just don't know. We just don't know what happened. And so when we don't know what happened, the defendant's entitled to walk out of here. You don't guess and say, you know, maybe she's guilty. We're going to convict her. When a defendant testifies, um, even though the defense lawyer wants to argue that, um, and say, um, you know, well, they still have a judge.

[00:41:01] [SPEAKER_03] They still didn't prove their case that the questions almost inevitably in the way jurors and any other rational person would approach this. It suddenly becomes, is the defendant telling the truth? So in presumed guilty, Rusty views, the prosecution's case is having, um, sustained a number of mortal blows.

[00:41:22] [SPEAKER_03] Why would you get up there then and shift, uh, and shift the focus to is the defendant telling the truth? And, you know, very often in criminal cases, a defendant has the problem that, you know, that Aaron, uh, the son of B is intended. Uh, the problem Aaron has, which is a frequent one is that he's got, you know, a criminal record and, and a felony conviction.

[00:41:51] [SPEAKER_03] And ordinarily that doesn't come into evidence, but when you get up to testify in the eyes of the law, it's always relevant that somebody who's testifying has been convicted of a felony because it bears on their credibility. So that's, you know, an additional thing that you drag into the courtroom when the defendant gets on the stand very often.

[00:42:12] [SPEAKER_03] Uh, so, um, you know, there's, there's a lot that weighs against having a defendant testify to top it off these days and something that I have never, uh, approved of. Um, the sentencing guidelines that are in place, not only federally, but in many States now, the defendant gets up and testifies, you know, his or her sentence is going to be longer than if, uh, if she or he had just said,

[00:42:42] [SPEAKER_03] sat it out, uh, because the rationale is, well, the jury didn't believe you. That's essentially a finding of perjury. So you've committed another crime on top of the one that you've been convicted of. So we're going to enhance your sentence. I think if the constitution gives you the right to testify, man, it does. It gives you the right not to testify and to testify under the fifth amendment. Then how on the health can you enhance a sentence for exercising a constitutional right?

[00:43:12] [SPEAKER_03] So that, that, that part bothers me, but that's part of the contemporary logic. And there's another reason on you that it makes it, um, a bad idea for a defendant to get on the stand ordinarily.

[00:43:25] [SPEAKER_02] Uh, another thing that jumped out of it, me jumped out of me in the book is that one time. Rusty describes the trial process and the legal process as a slaughterhouse and how it affects innocent people who get too close to that. Can you talk about that and how some people are affected by the legal system, even if they're not directly involved in the case?

[00:43:48] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. I mean, I don't think I'd express that in another novel and, uh, and yet, um, it is a truth and it's a particularly a truth for the victim family that thinks that, um, and it's often an illusion, but they think. That seeing the defendant convicted, uh, particularly in murder cases, that that will set the world right and put their hearts at ease.

[00:44:16] [SPEAKER_03] When, of course, the truth is the person they mourn will still be gone at the end of the case, no matter what the verdict is. But because they come into the courtroom with such hopes, you know, for the world to be put back in its, uh, proper order, you know, they're, they're almost always going to get crushed.

[00:44:37] [SPEAKER_03] Uh, and very often what happens, uh, as in this case, and in many cases is, uh, it's a tried and true technique of the defense to put the victim on trial. Uh, and to say, um, you know, not necessarily she deserved it, but, you know, she put herself in this position. She wasn't a very nice person.

[00:45:01] [SPEAKER_03] And then you've got her parents sitting out there listening to their beloved child getting pilloried. And, you know, it becomes a bloodletting, uh, for the victim family, uh, for the defendants family, of course, that has to live, uh, day after day after day with the threat that this person, they also love, uh, it's going to be taken from them for good.

[00:45:26] [SPEAKER_03] And that's, you know, symbolized and presumed guilty by bees. The anxiety she expresses several times, which is, I may never be able to hug my son again. Literally, I may never be able to hug him again, uh, once he's accused of this crime. So, you know, there's just a lot of damage that goes on in that courtroom.

[00:45:47] [SPEAKER_03] And, you know, the, I think it's my coinage that, you know, that they, the older of the slaughterhouse emerges from every criminal courtroom, uh, because something really brutal is taking place. Um, and, uh, that's something I always felt really deeply.

[00:46:07] [SPEAKER_00] Do you think there's any feasible way of making it a, a kinder and gentler slaughterhouse? Or do you think it's pretty much, um, locked into that because that's just the nature of the system?

[00:46:20] [SPEAKER_03] Well, during my very long tenure, uh, in the, you know, criminal justice system, a lot has been done, uh, to act with greater sympathy, uh, toward, you know, victims and their families. So it's, it's, it's, it's, and it's better, you know, the victims now have a right to speak at sentencing.

[00:46:44] [SPEAKER_03] They have rights of, uh, consultation with the prosecutors that believe it or not, when I started out, they were just locked out of the process and had to sit there and watch from the sidelines while a lot of incomprehensible decisions were made. So it's better, but it's, it's, it's not good. You know, the whole litigation process, I always tell the same story about it.

[00:47:12] [SPEAKER_03] Um, I mentioned this, this big trial with this judge and he for years had been taking money in fairly sophisticated forms, usually borrowing it from the other party or one of the lawyers saying, well, this is just a loan. Which of course he never paid back, but because the law was so equivocal about whether a loan could be a bribe. And of course, by now it's well settled that it can be.

[00:47:41] [SPEAKER_03] I also wanted to say it was a fraud. Uh, and so I put on all of the people on the other side of these cases to say, well, would you want to know that? You know, the guy on the other side had lent the judge $10,000 as the trial was about to start. Um, so one of these cases, the, the person who had paid the bribe was an art dealer. The victim was an artist who had sued his dealer.

[00:48:08] [SPEAKER_03] And I began to tell him before trial to see whether he'd be able, willing to testify. I began to tell him what had happened and he started to shake, you know, literally shake and quake. And I, you know, I put my hand on his shoulder. I said, Bill, you know, I know how horrifying it is to find out, uh, that something like that happened, but we're going to set this right.

[00:48:36] [SPEAKER_03] We're going to try to punish this judge. And he said to me, no, no, no. He said, that's not what I'm afraid of. I'm afraid the litigation will have to start again and that he'll have to go through that cruel, heart crushing process all over again. Uh, and that, you know, that, that, that, that, that's the whole system in a nutshell.

[00:48:59] [SPEAKER_00] Um, you know, one issue that's also plagued the system traditionally is, you know, equity around race, um, and, and sort of racism. And that's something I think you've dealt with in a lot of your work. Um, and in this book in particular, uh, the defendant, um, Aaron is, is black and he's, um, being tried in a rural, predominantly white, um, area.

[00:49:22] [SPEAKER_00] And I, I'm curious, you know, um, as somebody who's, you know, tried cases and has sort of seen some of that firsthand, um, you know, like, I guess, what are your thoughts on that? And, and sort of, um, how did that come into your thinking, um, your own experiences, um, in this work?

[00:49:38] [SPEAKER_03] Well, bearing in mind the unpleasant realities that, um, a disproportionate number of minority people, especially African Americans end up in our criminal courtrooms, especially our state criminal courtrooms. Uh, you know, it's something that's always with you and, um, you know, and it, and it's, it's a reality that because a disability,

[00:50:08] [SPEAKER_03] disproportionate number of the people convicted of crimes, uh, are, we'll say black because they are, it's jurors come into the courtroom and they, whatever inherent racism they've, they've been raised with. And it's almost impossible as a white person in this society, not to have been raised with some, but when you put it in the criminal context, it's like, well, he's probably guilty because, you know, most people can,

[00:50:38] [SPEAKER_03] convicted of crimes are of the same color as he is. Um, and as Aaron perceives it, they are very much, and this is why the title is what it is. Uh, they are presumed, they are presumed guilty. Uh, and so what the defense lawyer and Aaron's aware of this, Aaron being the defendant, he's aware of it from the beginning, um, is that that's,

[00:51:08] [SPEAKER_03] that's weighing against him by, by the end of the case, Rusty expresses it to somebody and says, there is no evidence left against this young man except his race. Uh, and that's, you know, that's the only way you're going to be able to convict him is because of, you know, the color of his skin. Uh, and, but, you know, that, that is the reality.

[00:51:30] [SPEAKER_03] And, and, and by the way, it, it's not the case that it always works, um, works against the defendant. Um, I remember trying a case. I thought it was a dead bang fraud case, but the defendant was African American, an educated business person.

[00:51:57] [SPEAKER_03] And, you know, not only did he make a good impression, he deserved to make a good impression, but the fraud was obvious. The jury was nonetheless out eight days. And it turned out there was one black woman who was hauled out. And when the judge finally talked to her, she said, you know, your honor, it is so hard for a black man in our society to make something substantial out of himself and his life.

[00:52:26] [SPEAKER_03] It's just, I can't stand to see him brought down. You know, I gotta be convinced beyond any doubt that, that, that, that, you know, that he's guilty. Um, so it's not, like I said, in the way the courtroom works, it's not always to the defendant's disadvantage when they're a minority person.

[00:52:50] [SPEAKER_03] Uh, but it's clearly, um, and, and that's why the Supreme court has said, you can't try black defendants in particular, and then let the prosecutors systematically strike off every, uh, every African American from the jury. Uh, because being tried by a jury of one's peers is obviously got to include people who've shared some of your social experience.

[00:53:17] [SPEAKER_03] Um, and, uh, you know, and that's, that's what Aaron is up against. He's in an area where there are very few people who have shared his social experience.

[00:53:29] [SPEAKER_02] Talking about, uh, juries and verdicts reminds me at one point in the book, Rusty mentions that he, I think he's seen some research or something that indicates that roughly 80% of jurors make up their minds right after opening statements. So does it boil down in some cases to the verdict goes to whatever lawyer is a better storyteller?

[00:53:50] [SPEAKER_03] Well, being a really good storyteller helps you a lot in the courtroom. And, uh, and, and, and Rusty points out how hard that fact is on the defendant who wants to say nothing but reasonable doubt, reasonable doubt, reasonable doubt.

[00:54:10] [SPEAKER_03] And yet I, I was taught by friends of mine who had left the U S attorney's office longer, uh, before me than I had that you're almost never going to win a case as a defense lawyer, unless you've got a really solid theory of defense, which means a good story to tell, um, about how this crime happened. That doesn't involve your, uh, that doesn't involve your, your client's guilt.

[00:54:35] [SPEAKER_03] So yeah, the narrative Kevin really matters in the courtroom really matters. Uh, and you know, those statistics, of course, they're, they're recited all the time by jury consultants.

[00:54:52] [SPEAKER_03] I don't know how, um, how much recent research goes to reconfirm them, but you know, jury consultants literally offer their advice by having each side make mock opening statements. Uh, and then the jury deliberates. So that'll tell you how much of the process is depends on these first impressions.

[00:55:17] [SPEAKER_00] Uh, Rusty in general seems to express some pessimism a little bit at times over, over the jury system, at least, um, you know, as he's going through, um, jury selection. And I'm curious, uh, do you share that or do you see it as a flawed, but ultimately, um, fair system?

[00:55:37] [SPEAKER_03] Well, you know, it, it, it can drive you crazy when you talk to a jury after a verdict and they go, oh yeah, I knew he was guilty. I knew he was guilty because, you know, he came to court every day in that powder blue suit and nobody, but a guilty person would wear, you know, would, would wear a suit like that.

[00:56:00] [SPEAKER_03] Uh, it was always my rule of thumb that after jury deliberations went on longer than an hour for each trial day, they would get themselves out of that room, uh, by latching on to some entirely irrational conclusion, uh, in order to come to a verdict in the case. And that, uh, I saw it happened far more often, uh, than I, than I would have liked.

[00:56:25] [SPEAKER_03] So, you know, the jury system, you know, partakes a lot about democracy, uh, in general, which is, you know, as Churchill said, it's really a terrible system except for all the rest. And, you know, this came home to me when I watched, um, one of the series of judicial corruption cases being tried, uh, in front of, um, a judge alone, sitting alone in a bench trial.

[00:56:55] [SPEAKER_03] And he decided to acquit the defendant because he had a novel interpretation of the mail fraud statute that he decided he was going to, uh, make a point of by acquitting this defendant. And, uh, it was just an obnoxiously egocentric thing to do.

[00:57:19] [SPEAKER_03] And as I said to one of my colleagues afterwards, I said, you know, this is a really good reminder, uh, that juries are not the only people who can behave irrationally in this system.

[00:57:31] [SPEAKER_03] Uh, and so would you rather have 12 people, uh, off the street who come in for the most part utterly sincere, uh, and deeply, deeply, um, struck by the weighty responsibility of deciding on the liberty of a fellow citizen? Uh, you know, or some judge who decides he wants to prove a point, uh, to some other judges in the worst possible way.

[00:58:00] [SPEAKER_03] So, you know, it's like, you know, you go back to Churchill.

[00:58:04] [SPEAKER_02] Uh, you mentioned before a rusty, of course, his story's been told in your novels. You mentioned the Apple TV show, also the movie with Harrison Ford. Are there differences in storytelling as to what makes a good story when it's in a novel as opposed to a movie or a TV series?

[00:58:22] [SPEAKER_03] Well, I mean, Kevin, I would, you know, there are two things that I've always been interested in, which the more I see of it, uh, the more I realize I know nothing. Uh, and one is movie making and the other is politics.

[00:58:41] [SPEAKER_03] And, you know, the, the truth is the people who are professionals as opposed to me, uh, who are interested bystanders really understand what they're doing. And, you know, the example I gave before about, you know, David Kelly, you know, David's a longtime follower of my novels and, you know, I, I venture to say he really likes them.

[00:59:04] [SPEAKER_03] But when it comes time to present them for the popular audience that views them when they're on film, which is frankly a much broader audience than, uh, unfortunately the audience who reads books in this country, you have to make certain changes and you have to, you have to broaden it and find other ways to sharpen the drama.

[00:59:27] [SPEAKER_03] I really don't think I am particularly good at that when it comes, when it comes to movies. I've written, you know, I've, I've, I've written some scripts over the pilot scripts over the years, uh, but always in collaboration with somebody else. Cause I just, I don't think I've got the, the, the know-how to, to sharpen it, uh, in the right ways without somebody going, no, no, no, that that's not going to work. We got to do it this way.

[00:59:56] [SPEAKER_02] Uh, when we talked to you about suspect at the end of the interview, I asked, uh, any hints as to what you're working on next. And you gave us a little bit of a hint about this novel. So I'm going to try my luck again. Are there any hints about this novel you mentioned that you're thinking of?

[01:00:11] [SPEAKER_03] I'm not probably as far along with it as, as I was when I talked to you after suspect, but you know, right now I'm thinking about writing a novel that is set retrospectively in the 1950s.

[01:00:30] [SPEAKER_03] In other words, there are characters, contemporary characters who are looking back and trying to determine whether there was a crime committed. And as, as I'm envisioning this today, there's an old lawyer who is happens with the elderly is perusing the, you know, the death notices.

[01:00:58] [SPEAKER_03] And he looks and calls up his, uh, his granddaughter who's, you know, and it may be pinky from suspect and it may be stern, but he says, I need you to look into something for me because, uh, I just read a death notice. And I think it's this person who was, who I always thought was murdered 50 years ago.

[01:01:22] [SPEAKER_03] Um, and you know, maybe it's just the same name and same background, but you know, I got to figure out why I made that mistake 50 years ago. Cause it dramatically altered my perception of the person who'd ordered the killing. That sounds amazing. Yeah.

[01:01:41] [SPEAKER_02] That sounds incredible. That's a great hook. I want to read that book now. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:01:46] [SPEAKER_03] Also, this is the first market testing I've done of that, that idea. So I'm, I'm glad your response is so enthusiastic. That sounds amazing. Yeah.

[01:01:57] [SPEAKER_00] Like pinky and stern plus cold case, 1950s. That's yeah. We're, we're, we're locked in.

[01:02:03] [SPEAKER_02] And of course he did such a great job, uh, writing a novel in the 1940s when you wrote ordinary heroes. So, yeah.

[01:02:10] [SPEAKER_03] Well, I've been, I've been, I, I really have been always been fascinated by the 1950s, which of course is when I was, I was a child. And so much of what happened has happened in this country, uh, in the 70 years since was sort of preordained by the stupidity of the 1950s. And, you know, it was not a good time in America as I look back on it.

[01:02:39] [SPEAKER_03] Um, and almost all of it's been eschewed and nobody today would look back and go, I want to go back to those times. So, um, and a lot of the changes that have come, have come in response to how stupidly we were living then.

[01:02:58] [SPEAKER_00] I wanted to ask you.

[01:02:59] [SPEAKER_02] Well, I was at, I'm really excited about it. And hopefully in two or three years we can, uh, talk about it.

[01:03:05] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah.

[01:03:06] [SPEAKER_02] Well, you, you've, you've been the first to know.

[01:03:08] [SPEAKER_03] So.

[01:03:10] [SPEAKER_00] Exclusive. Um, I want to just ask you, is there anything we didn't ask you about that you wanted to mention or just wanted to say?

[01:03:18] [SPEAKER_03] No, I think you guys, you know, not, not surprisingly have done a really good job. Uh, and you know, you, you've done it before and you've done it again. Um, but you know, it's, it's a lot more rewarding for the novelist, uh, to do this kind of interview where people have read the work and thought about it. Uh, instead of saying, well, Scott, it is Scott, right?

[01:03:46] [SPEAKER_03] Tell us what this book is about.

[01:03:52] [SPEAKER_00] We really appreciate that. That means a lot. Yeah.

[01:03:55] [SPEAKER_03] So. The interviewer is a gift to the author.

[01:04:01] [SPEAKER_02] It's an amazing book. I think it's the best of the rusty books.

[01:04:05] [SPEAKER_00] I love rusty. And so, yeah, it was a really, a very satisfying, um, book to read. Absolutely.

[01:04:11] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. Well, thank you both. I'm always grateful for your attention. So thanks. Thank you for taking the time.

[01:04:17] [SPEAKER_00] Thank you so much. Thanks so much to Scott Tarrou for taking the time to speak with us. We strongly recommend checking out presumed guilty and frankly, all of his other books. And we'll include links to those in our show notes.

[01:04:37] [SPEAKER_02] Thanks so much for listening to the murder sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us at murdersheet at gmail.com. If you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

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[01:05:21] [SPEAKER_02] Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for The Murder Sheet, and who you can find on the web at kevintg.com.

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[01:06:03] [SPEAKER_02] Before we wrap up this episode, can we take just a moment to say a few more words about our great new sponsor, Acorns?

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[01:07:37] [SPEAKER_00] You important disclosures at acorns.com slash msheet.

[01:07:39] [SPEAKER_02] Can we talk a little bit before we go about Quince, a great new sponsor for us? I think in one of the ads that we've already done for them, we talked about the compliments I'm getting on my jacket. I know you're a very modest woman, but can we talk about the compliments you're getting on the Quince products you wear?

[01:07:58] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, I've got two of their Mongolian cashmere sweaters. They're a brand that just does this sort of luxurious products, but without the crazy costs really well. They give you Italian leather handbags. They do like European linen sheets. You have a really cool suede jacket. And I really like the way I look in my sweaters. I like the way you look in your bomber jacket. It looks super cool.

[01:08:24] [SPEAKER_02] You've gotten a lot of compliments when you go out wearing these sweaters.

[01:08:26] [SPEAKER_00] I think I have, yeah.

[01:08:28] [SPEAKER_02] And deservedly so.

[01:08:29] [SPEAKER_00] Also, I'm one of those people, my skin is very sensitive. I'm kind of sensitive. So when it comes to wearing sweaters, sometimes something's too scratchy. It really bothers me. These are so soft. They're just very delicate and soft. Wearing them is lovely because they're super comfortable. It's not one of those things where you buy it and it looks great, but it doesn't feel that great. They look great. They feel great. But yeah, I really love them. And you got, you know, your cool jacket.

[01:08:57] [SPEAKER_00] I mean, that's a little bit of a, you're the guy who like wears the same thing all the time. So this was a bit of a gamble for you, a bit of a risk. You got something a bit different.

[01:09:05] [SPEAKER_02] I do wash my clothes.

[01:09:06] [SPEAKER_00] I know you wash your clothes, but I mean, you're filthy.

[01:09:10] [SPEAKER_02] You just made me sound awful. So no, I wash my clothes.

[01:09:13] [SPEAKER_00] But you don't really. I laundry them. You don't really experiment with fashion that much is what I'm saying. So this is a little bit out of the norm for you, but I think you really like it and it looks good.

[01:09:22] [SPEAKER_02] Thank you. Great products, incredible prices. Absolutely. Quince.com.

[01:09:27] [SPEAKER_00] There you go. So you can go to quince.com slash msheet. And right now they're offering 365 day returns plus free shipping on your order. So it's quince.com slash msheet. That's quince.com slash msheet.

[01:09:44] [SPEAKER_02] Before we go, we just wanted to say another few words about Vaya. This is really a wonderful product. I think it's really helped both of us get a lot better rest.

[01:09:53] [SPEAKER_00] Vaya is pretty much, I guess you'd say the only lifestyle hemp brand out there. So what does that mean? It means that they're all about crafting different products to elicit different moods. Kevin and I really like their non-THC CBD products. Specifically, Zen really helps me fall asleep. Some Zen can really just kind of help me get more into that state where I can relax and fall asleep pretty easily. And they've been such a wonderful support to us. They're a longtime sponsor. We really love working with them.

[01:10:21] [SPEAKER_00] And they really make this show possible. I'm going to say this. You may not realize this, but when you support our sponsors, you're supporting us. And it kind of makes it possible for us to do this show. So if you or one of your loved ones is interested in trying some of this stuff, you're going to get a great deal. It's very high quality, high value.

[01:10:39] [SPEAKER_01] Anya, if I wanted to give this discount you speak of, what do I do?

[01:10:43] [SPEAKER_00] Okay, if you're 21 and older, head to Viahemp.com and use the code MSHEET to receive 15% off. And if you're new to Viah, get a free gift of your choice. That's V-I-I-A, hemp.com, and use code MSHEET at checkout.

[01:10:58] [SPEAKER_02] Spell the code.

[01:10:59] [SPEAKER_00] M-S-H-E-E-T. And after you purchase, they're going to ask you, hey, where did you hear about us? Say the murder sheet because then it lets them know that our ads are effective and it really helps us out.