Comics and True Crime: A Conversation with Kelly Sue DeConnick

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[00:01:38] [SPEAKER_02]: Playing June's Journey is just like dropping straight into your own cozy mystery story.

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[00:01:51] [SPEAKER_02]: June's Journey is a free-to-download hidden object game. You play as June Parker. She's a flapper slash sleuth and she's all about investigating mysterious goings on in various jazz age locales.

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[00:02:13] [SPEAKER_00]: Each level sees you picking out hidden objects. The scenes are beautifully illustrated and the gameplay is fun and relaxing.

[00:02:22] [SPEAKER_00]: I usually play in between tasks as sort of a way to relax and recharge. The sense of accomplishment knocking out a level or two is great.

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[00:02:44] [SPEAKER_00]: Content warning, this episode contains discussion of murder and violence against women and children.

[00:02:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Artists explore and process topics like crime, trauma, and violence through their art.

[00:02:55] [SPEAKER_02]: And that art helps us as a society further explore these ideas around crimes.

[00:03:00] [SPEAKER_02]: In fact, we'd argue that certain works and genres, the police procedural, the courtroom drama, the cozy mystery, at times looms so large in our collective imagination that they supersede the realities of crime.

[00:03:14] [SPEAKER_00]: As people who both run a true crime podcast and who love reading and watching creative works about crime, we think about the intersection of crime and fiction quite a bit.

[00:03:25] [SPEAKER_00]: And so we're going to do something a bit different today.

[00:03:28] [SPEAKER_00]: We've enjoyed our past conversations with people like author and attorney Scott Turow and author and former FBI director James Comey.

[00:03:36] [SPEAKER_00]: We've talked about their fiction, their approaches to the genres of courtroom dramas and crime and mystery.

[00:03:42] [SPEAKER_02]: But this time, for the first time, we'll be diving into a whole new medium.

[00:03:48] [SPEAKER_02]: We're thrilled to be speaking with comic book writer Kelly Sue DeConnick.

[00:03:53] [SPEAKER_02]: She's got a new comic coming out that draws heavily upon the true crime genre.

[00:03:58] [SPEAKER_02]: We're going to talk with her about that and touch upon a range of other topics centering true crime and comics.

[00:04:04] [SPEAKER_00]: One thing you may not know about me is that I've been reading comic books all my life.

[00:04:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Don't bring up Silver Age Superman around me unless you want to get stuck on that topic for quite a while.

[00:04:13] [SPEAKER_00]: You will be as trapped as a resident of the bottle city of Candor.

[00:04:18] [SPEAKER_00]: This is a medium I care very much about, and so I was really excited to get the chance to speak with Kelly Sue.

[00:04:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Kelly Sue is an award winning comics writer based out of Portland, Oregon.

[00:04:29] [SPEAKER_02]: She's done independent comics before like Bitch Planet and Pretty Deadly for Image Comics.

[00:04:33] [SPEAKER_02]: She's worked on the comic book Wonder Woman Historia, The Amazons for DC.

[00:04:39] [SPEAKER_02]: She also revamped the character Carol Danvers, also known as Captain Marvel, for Marvel Comics and worked on the 2019 film Captain Marvel.

[00:04:46] [SPEAKER_02]: Most recently, she worked on the 2023 film The Marvels and she praised both director Nia DaCosta and executive producer Mary Livanos regarding that experience.

[00:04:56] [SPEAKER_00]: We should also note that she's also part of a comics super couple.

[00:04:59] [SPEAKER_00]: Her husband Matt Fraction has worked on comics like a recent Jim Eelson series that we enjoyed here.

[00:05:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Today, we'll focus on Kelly Sue's upcoming independent project, FML, with Dark Horse Comics.

[00:05:12] [SPEAKER_02]: It centers the story of Patty, an indie cartoonist and mother with an obsession for true crime and how she helps her teenage son navigate a world ablaze with danger, supernatural happenings, and your typical teenage angst.

[00:05:26] [SPEAKER_02]: It deals with concepts like trauma, justice, violence, long unsolved crimes and the comforting lies we cling to about how immersing ourselves in horrible stories might help us recognize the real monsters.

[00:05:38] [SPEAKER_02]: My name is Anya Cain. I'm a journalist and I'm Kevin Greenlee.

[00:05:42] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm an attorney and this is The Murder Sheet.

[00:05:45] [SPEAKER_00]: We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews and deep dives into murder cases.

[00:05:51] [SPEAKER_00]: We're The Murder Sheet.

[00:05:53] [SPEAKER_02]: And this is Comics and True Crime, a conversation with Kelly Sue DeConnick.

[00:06:45] [SPEAKER_02]: Awesome. Well, Kelly Sue, thank you so much for joining us today.

[00:06:48] [SPEAKER_02]: We are super excited to talk to you.

[00:06:50] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm excited to talk to you too.

[00:06:52] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think I'd like to start with the fact that a lot of people in our audience may not read comic books, but in a way they may still be familiar with your work, especially if they're fans of some of the Marvel superhero movies.

[00:07:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Can you talk about your work on that?

[00:07:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so I started with Marvel writing a couple of one shots.

[00:07:18] [SPEAKER_01]: I did a comic on Sif, who is a supporting character in Thor.

[00:07:24] [SPEAKER_01]: And I did a comic on Rescue, who is the Pepper Potts Iron Man person and then person.

[00:07:33] [SPEAKER_01]: She, it's when Pepper Potts puts on an Iron Man suit, she becomes a superhero whose name is Rescue, who my husband actually created not Pepper Potts, but the superhero persona.

[00:07:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Then that kind of led to a few other miniseries, which led to working on a solo series for Carol Danvers, where she went from being Ms. Marvel to becoming Captain Marvel.

[00:08:02] [SPEAKER_01]: And then Marvel Studios decided that that would be part of their film slate.

[00:08:07] [SPEAKER_01]: And so I was fortunate enough to get to work on that film and actually have a cameo in the subway scene, which is hilarious.

[00:08:17] [SPEAKER_01]: And then I also worked on The Marvels, which came out this year.

[00:08:23] [SPEAKER_01]: In comics, one of the things that happens is people confuse the medium of comics and the genre of superheroes.

[00:08:33] [SPEAKER_01]: So superheroes are a genre, comics are a medium.

[00:08:36] [SPEAKER_01]: You can make comics about literally anything.

[00:08:39] [SPEAKER_01]: You could make true crime comics.

[00:08:41] [SPEAKER_01]: You could make romance comics.

[00:08:43] [SPEAKER_01]: You can make Western comics.

[00:08:45] [SPEAKER_01]: You can make crime comics.

[00:08:47] [SPEAKER_01]: And all of those things have been done.

[00:08:50] [SPEAKER_01]: In the United States, and I won't bore you with too much of this history, but if you're interested, there is a book called The Tencent Plague that talks a little bit about what happened in the 1950s.

[00:09:01] [SPEAKER_01]: The 1950s that caused the comic book industry in the United States to contract a bit.

[00:09:09] [SPEAKER_01]: And because of that, there are other parts of the world that didn't go through that where you could go into a bookstore the size of something like a Barnes & Noble.

[00:09:24] [SPEAKER_01]: And you'll find comics there shelved by genre the same way, you know, you would find any book in a large bookstore.

[00:09:36] [SPEAKER_01]: I should use Powell's instead of Barnes & Noble.

[00:09:38] [SPEAKER_01]: But anyway, as a good Portlander.

[00:09:41] [SPEAKER_01]: But here, if you go into a local comic book store, you'll find that the books are usually shelved by publisher, which is very odd at first.

[00:09:56] [SPEAKER_01]: You kind of have to get used to it.

[00:09:57] [SPEAKER_01]: It's like going into Powell's and being like, excuse me, where is the Simon & Schuster section?

[00:10:03] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, just nobody thinks about things like that.

[00:10:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Right. So the Marvel and DC are the ones that we think of in this country when we think of comic books, they are shared universe corporate owned superhero stories, and they can be wonderful.

[00:10:19] [SPEAKER_01]: There are really, really terrific superhero comics and there are really bad superhero comics just like anything else.

[00:10:26] [SPEAKER_01]: But sometimes people think that they don't like comics because they don't like superheroes.

[00:10:34] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's kind of like thinking that you don't like music because you don't like jazz.

[00:10:40] [SPEAKER_01]: I guarantee you there's a comic for you.

[00:10:44] [SPEAKER_01]: And if you have a good local comic book store, you can find a comic book concierge there who will help you find a book that you're going to love.

[00:10:54] [SPEAKER_01]: It's going to be a great fit for you.

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[00:12:34] [SPEAKER_02]: So jumping off, we'd love to have you tell us more about FML.

[00:12:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Kevin and I both read the first two and we're very, very, it's really good.

[00:12:46] [SPEAKER_02]: So we're really excited to talk with you about it.

[00:12:48] [SPEAKER_02]: But I guess just tell us, start the listeners off with what is FML about?

[00:12:54] [SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, it's complicated but...

[00:12:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's so funny.

[00:12:59] [SPEAKER_01]: I was driving my daughter this morning.

[00:13:03] [SPEAKER_01]: She's doing some volunteer work at the local roller derby camps.

[00:13:12] [SPEAKER_01]: And we were talking about our days and she asked me what I had coming up.

[00:13:15] [SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, you know, I have that Murder Sheet podcast and I'm really excited.

[00:13:19] [SPEAKER_01]: But I'm really nervous.

[00:13:20] [SPEAKER_01]: And she was like, well, you know, just be honest.

[00:13:22] [SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, no, no, I will be honest and I will.

[00:13:30] [SPEAKER_01]: But what I'm actually nervous about is I haven't talked about FML very much.

[00:13:38] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's difficult to articulate.

[00:13:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Like I know by the end of this publicity cycle I will be able to articulate it.

[00:13:47] [SPEAKER_01]: But right now it's a little bit hard.

[00:13:48] [SPEAKER_01]: And she said, so I asked her, I was like, well, how would you describe it?

[00:13:52] [SPEAKER_01]: And she said, I would say it's a very fun book about some not fun things.

[00:13:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Which I really was like, that's good, kid.

[00:14:02] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm still in that.

[00:14:03] [SPEAKER_01]: And she said if you like goonies or stranger things then you would like FML.

[00:14:12] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that is very definitely a good comparison for the teenage side of the book.

[00:14:23] [SPEAKER_01]: But the book is about the, it almost has two protagonists.

[00:14:29] [SPEAKER_01]: There's a teenage boy and a mother in her 50s.

[00:14:34] [SPEAKER_01]: And we follow both of their stories and how they interact and how they're both kind of dealing with traumas, honestly.

[00:14:46] [SPEAKER_01]: But we try to do it in a way that has a sense of humor about itself and we also employ some surrealist elements.

[00:14:56] [SPEAKER_02]: I'll say you mentioned some comparisons.

[00:14:58] [SPEAKER_02]: And I hope this is a good one and I hope it's not one of those things where you're like.

[00:15:01] [SPEAKER_00]: She was so worried that if she said this, you were going to be offended.

[00:15:05] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I'm so, Anya, I'm really next to impossible to offend.

[00:15:09] [SPEAKER_02]: We don't know comics like he does.

[00:15:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Kevin has introduced me to more comics and have been reading more.

[00:15:17] [SPEAKER_02]: And the thing that maybe it gave me some of the same vibe of, which I really like where it's basically like a bit of a slice of life,

[00:15:25] [SPEAKER_02]: but some very disturbing background events that sort of fall into the true crime category, which again is sort of a need.

[00:15:31] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm all about is kind of kind of reminded me of Ice Haven in that way.

[00:15:36] [SPEAKER_02]: And like, you know, what's going on and, you know, Dan Klaus.

[00:15:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, oh, okay. Well, I know Dan Klaus.

[00:15:43] [SPEAKER_02]: It's all about like the violence of like the kind of everyday suburbia and sort of like, but, you know, but like on the surface, just people going about their day.

[00:15:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Let me just assure you no one in my industry is going to have their feelings hurt by being compared to Dan Klaus.

[00:15:58] [SPEAKER_01]: I told you that. Yes.

[00:16:02] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know what I'm talking about.

[00:16:04] [SPEAKER_02]: So that's so but anyways, yeah, this book or this story very much.

[00:16:09] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, as somebody who's very into true crime, as Kevin is and I am, it's one of those things like we can totally tell how into true crime you are just from reading it.

[00:16:19] [SPEAKER_02]: And so I guess before we kind of get more into the story, can you tell us a bit about sort of your interest in true crime and how that has sort of seeped into this work?

[00:16:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes. So I think it is something that I have come in and out of.

[00:16:37] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I read Helter Skelter when I was too young to read Helter Skelter.

[00:16:48] [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, it's a good my mom did not police my reading at all, which I appreciate and also think maybe we should have had some conversations about some of these things.

[00:17:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I read Helter Skelter when I was oh, I don't know, probably like 1213. And yeah, I know.

[00:17:08] [SPEAKER_01]: And then had that, you know, I went through that little phase that one goes through when they're a slightly odd teen.

[00:17:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Like I'm I'm dark and scary and edgy. Look at me.

[00:17:26] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, and then.

[00:17:30] [SPEAKER_01]: And then as an adult, I got into Ouija, the

[00:17:38] [SPEAKER_01]: true crime photographer from the 40s.

[00:17:43] [SPEAKER_01]: And I had a

[00:17:49] [SPEAKER_01]: this is not something I'm private about at all, but I have

[00:17:57] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm an alcoholic in recovery.

[00:18:00] [SPEAKER_01]: And I know you've mentioned that as well. My sponsor was a

[00:18:07] [SPEAKER_01]: extraordinary woman and writer who was also public about being in recovery. So I feel comfortable naming her, but

[00:18:16] [SPEAKER_01]: her name is Maggie Estepp. And she was a poet and a novelist and a musician and just an all around

[00:18:26] [SPEAKER_01]: amazing human being who died too young. But Maggie had a real interest in

[00:18:39] [SPEAKER_01]: crime and some of the darker aspects of history.

[00:18:43] [SPEAKER_01]: And we bonded over that a little bit and would buy each other horrifying books.

[00:18:49] [SPEAKER_01]: And so that was something that, you know, that was a part of it.

[00:18:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Hilariously like true crime and yoga were big parts of my early sobriety.

[00:18:59] [SPEAKER_01]: And then.

[00:19:02] [SPEAKER_01]: I think I couldn't quite put a finger on it, but I would suspect it would be somewhere around the start of the pandemic.

[00:19:11] [SPEAKER_01]: It was something that I got back into largely in podcasts and

[00:19:20] [SPEAKER_01]: One of the there's two aspects of true crime that I'm interested in interrogating in the book.

[00:19:27] [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm I hope what I'm doing is doing it from a perspective of how do I want to articulate this?

[00:19:42] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not coming for anyone.

[00:19:44] [SPEAKER_01]: I am really looking at myself here.

[00:19:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Like, you know, we all talk about this, right? We all talk about that.

[00:19:55] [SPEAKER_01]: There's an issue with the fact that we are taking in these stories about

[00:20:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Genuine horrors and the worst days in people's lives as our entertainment, right?

[00:20:18] [SPEAKER_01]: And.

[00:20:20] [SPEAKER_01]: And in particular for me.

[00:20:23] [SPEAKER_01]: And but I know this case, this is not exclusive to me.

[00:20:27] [SPEAKER_01]: I am far less interested in the unsolved cases, the cases where theoretically one could look well, maybe I can hope by the way, I can't help.

[00:20:39] [SPEAKER_01]: But I like the solved cases of the most.

[00:20:45] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think.

[00:20:47] [SPEAKER_01]: I think and I this is what I'm positing in the book.

[00:20:52] [SPEAKER_01]: If I think it has the same kind of soothing quality that Grimm's fairy tales have right that there is a that there's some kind of notion that.

[00:21:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Like it's almost hyper vigilance, right?

[00:21:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Like if I consume all of this, I'm going to I'm going to be able to recognize the monsters, which is hilarious because what do we learn?

[00:21:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Right. We learned that. Oh, no, no, you can't recognize the monsters.

[00:21:23] [SPEAKER_01]: But there's something about it that feels like like I'm getting information I need to protect myself and my loved ones.

[00:21:34] [SPEAKER_01]: And also.

[00:21:39] [SPEAKER_01]: It's. It's a high stress thing to hang my anxiety on that isn't actually connected to my own life.

[00:21:50] [SPEAKER_01]: So all of these.

[00:21:53] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, stress hormones and emotions that I feel in the midst of.

[00:22:00] [SPEAKER_01]: A lot of the kind of dumpster fire of change things that we're going through in our larger world right now.

[00:22:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Those those feelings.

[00:22:10] [SPEAKER_01]: There's a real lack of control for me like, you know, certainly I could campaign.

[00:22:16] [SPEAKER_01]: And do you know, campaign for the candidates that I support.

[00:22:20] [SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot of things that I can do, but the feeling I can recycle.

[00:22:29] [SPEAKER_01]: I can't put a finger in the dike of climate change.

[00:22:34] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, like, like I can't how do I?

[00:22:38] [SPEAKER_01]: I can engage with people on the other side of the aisle.

[00:22:44] [SPEAKER_01]: I can't do more than that to fix the larger problems of rhetoric, right?

[00:22:51] [SPEAKER_01]: So those feelings of powerlessness and impotence, I think.

[00:22:59] [SPEAKER_01]: That creates a.

[00:23:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Hormonal stress soup, you know, and I can.

[00:23:08] [SPEAKER_01]: I can hang that soup on.

[00:23:13] [SPEAKER_01]: These stories that.

[00:23:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Don't actually involve my life, and so there's a something that's a little bit distancing as well.

[00:23:23] [SPEAKER_01]: My preferences reflect that so my my.

[00:23:26] [SPEAKER_01]: My real favorite stories are the ones where the.

[00:23:31] [SPEAKER_01]: The women overcome, right? Because it's so often women that are.

[00:23:37] [SPEAKER_01]: The victims here and even if they don't.

[00:23:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Survive like with Abby and Libby.

[00:23:45] [SPEAKER_01]: The fact that they were savvy enough to gather that material on their phones.

[00:23:50] [SPEAKER_01]: So they could.

[00:23:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Aid investigators, you know, even if even hopefully they, you know, they didn't I can't even go there, but.

[00:24:06] [SPEAKER_01]: I like to see there's a horrific story about a woman who was.

[00:24:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Raped and left for dead and her hands cut off.

[00:24:28] [SPEAKER_01]: And she.

[00:24:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Shoved mud into the stumps of her hands and climbed up and flagged down a car, and I believe a car passed her at first because.

[00:24:42] [SPEAKER_01]: She looked like a prank or a nightmare, but she managed to flag down another car and this woman survived and.

[00:24:51] [SPEAKER_01]: As seen her attacker.

[00:24:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Go to jail and.

[00:24:59] [SPEAKER_01]: You know there will never be justice in the sense of.

[00:25:04] [SPEAKER_01]: An undoing of pain right?

[00:25:08] [SPEAKER_01]: But.

[00:25:10] [SPEAKER_01]: That that overcoming.

[00:25:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Is very powerful and I want to be careful not to use the word.

[00:25:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Inspiring because that's not really what I mean, and there's something about it that can be a little bit diminishing.

[00:25:33] [SPEAKER_01]: I think I just love seeing the resilience and the power of women.

[00:25:39] [SPEAKER_01]: I know it to be true. I know it to be true of.

[00:25:44] [SPEAKER_01]: The women in my life, but I like to see it in the larger world and I like to see it.

[00:25:50] [SPEAKER_01]: I'd like to see it reflected in our culture and our stories.

[00:25:54] [SPEAKER_02]: One thing about your story that resonated so much with me is I'd love that it has that tension between.

[00:26:03] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, is the kind of fact that we're listening to these horrifying stories in the background doing the laundry hanging out? Is that good for us?

[00:26:11] [SPEAKER_02]: At the same time you do see the other side of it which is the community that something like true crime can bring.

[00:26:17] [SPEAKER_02]: I love these punk rock women who you know that one of the main characters Patty is friends with.

[00:26:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, lost somebody they lost one of their own years ago so no spoilers but they have this true crime and wine gathering but it's not just to chat it's to organize and try to figure out if they can make progress on that case.

[00:26:38] [SPEAKER_02]: And so there is something of that, you know the dark side of it.

[00:26:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Are we all just stressing ourselves out to the point where we are paranoid but also the positive side of like maybe there is some good that can come out of people banding together especially women especially people from traditionally marginalized communities and speaking out against violence and trying to.

[00:26:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Look for accountability wherever it can be found so I love that the work really kind of grapples with both because you know what I feel like half the time I sound like I'm just a true crime you know true believer where it's like yes it's great and then half the time I sound like a complete hater because I'm like well there's some problems here I don't know.

[00:27:14] [SPEAKER_01]: You know I always tell young writers that the most fertile ground for fiction is mixed feelings so.

[00:27:24] [SPEAKER_01]: You know when you when you have those feelings that are in direct opposite opposition to one another you know I love true crime and find it weirdly soothing so I have to wear earbuds in the morning because my husband is like could we not have.

[00:27:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Vicious obscene murders before coffee and like yes okay my bad yes sure I actually need this with my coffee but I understand and respect that you're maybe not ready that's okay so you know I have that part of me that is that finds it soothing and then I have the part of me that is disturbed by it and that is.

[00:28:04] [SPEAKER_01]: You know as a consumer has all kinds of fields about the commodification of this stuff you know and I think it's real and I think it's absolutely.

[00:28:28] [SPEAKER_01]: We're not going to solve any of these problems by running away from complexity I think.

[00:28:34] That's.

[00:28:35] [SPEAKER_01]: This makes me sound like I'm 150 is like you know get off my lawn but one of the.

[00:28:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Concerns that I.

[00:28:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Have today is it's not any one thing it's not social media it's not our phones it's not the 24 hour news cycle which is probably the 24 minute news cycle at this point the combination of all of these things.

[00:29:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Has led us to this place where we're moving so quickly that.

[00:29:15] [SPEAKER_01]: We can't engage with complexity and we often prefer not to.

[00:29:22] [SPEAKER_01]: And that is of some concern for me we all have opposing views and within ourselves and I think that those things are.

[00:29:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Not things you want to wipe out I think that's something that you want to engage with that's where all the meat is that's where everything that is the most interesting is.

[00:29:48] [SPEAKER_01]: You know and I'm fifty four and it is not for me to be an engine of culture anymore that is for younger people you know younger brains work faster and they are.

[00:30:02] [SPEAKER_01]: It is easy to push culture forward.

[00:30:08] [SPEAKER_01]: When you know they are they're sort of built to oversimplify right so that they can make quick decisions and push forward and that's great and that's good and.

[00:30:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Genuinely.

[00:30:21] [SPEAKER_01]: The kids are all right I love the babies.

[00:30:26] [SPEAKER_01]: But as an older person my role now is to give counsel.

[00:30:34] [SPEAKER_01]: And to help them avoid some of the mistakes of the past some of the mistakes that we've made right to have the perspective that comes with age it's not on me whether they take that counselor not and maybe it's not good but I can give it as genuinely and thoughtfully as I can.

[00:30:51] [SPEAKER_01]: And as a creator to kind of create stories that engage with complexity and invite that kind of admission of not having all of the answers and not knowing how to reconcile opposing feelings or opposing thoughts.

[00:31:08] [SPEAKER_01]: You know I really enjoyed your interview with Jason Blair where he was talking about being.

[00:31:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay with being wrong right like and I think that's part of it is you know in the.

[00:31:32] [SPEAKER_01]: I think it was in the 80s where we started calling any politician who changed their position a flip flapper right as though they were going back and forth right but usually there was one flip.

[00:31:46] [SPEAKER_01]: And then oh now you're a flip flapper you've changed your mind and changing your mind became a bad thing and I don't understand the logic of that I don't understand.

[00:31:59] [SPEAKER_01]: You know I don't want to be fully formed coming into the world you know I don't want to be someone who holds on to all of the ideas that they embraced when they were 17 I got shoes older than that you know bless your hearts but no.

[00:32:16] [SPEAKER_01]: So I think changing and evolving and modeling that there's no shame in being like oh hey I was wrong about that isn't that interesting you know here's why I think I was wrong about that and here's the parts of it that I still kind of hold on to but here's where I get oh okay.

[00:32:42] [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's terrific I think that's reflective of intelligence and maturity all qualities that actually make great leaders yeah I am a lost now and can't remember what the original question was but.

[00:32:57] [SPEAKER_02]: That was amazing we were like that and I'll tell you like I love what you said though but at the end there it does kind of reflect in FML itself because it is sort of a dialogue between mother who's kind of.

[00:33:08] [SPEAKER_02]: From one generation and then her son in the next generation and sort of how they're trying to relate to each other how they understand each other where there are limitations.

[00:33:15] [SPEAKER_02]: And that's what is present there because ultimately I feel like Patty the mom is trying to protect Riley from a very chaotic world and trying to give them the best advice the best thing to do without necessarily always being able to control everything and make sure everything's all good for him or give him space right like she's

[00:33:36] [SPEAKER_01]: like there's there's a there's a moment in the issues that you read where Riley comes to her.

[00:33:46] [SPEAKER_01]: In a very vulnerable position and she's like yeah I don't know what to do with that so we're moving on you know.

[00:33:53] [SPEAKER_01]: As a mom I get that impulse you know and as a Gen X mom I'm like babies grow some skin you're fine you know but also.

[00:34:07] [SPEAKER_01]: No that's not right that's not they have skin they are resilient they are powerful and beautiful and creative and more in touch with their feelings than we were at their age and that is the thing to be celebrated and it doesn't.

[00:34:25] [SPEAKER_01]: To be able to admit that they are frightened or lost or uncomfortable or vulnerable is not actually weakness that is actually courage and ignoring it and moving on is a kind of cowardice.

[00:34:40] [SPEAKER_00]: As you say you are a mother how does your experiences in life inform and enrich FML.

[00:34:48] [SPEAKER_01]: So very at the heart of this book is a mother who I.

[00:34:57] [SPEAKER_01]: We're talking about me let me not be subtle here so at the heart of the book is me as a 50 year old something 54 year old mother of two teenagers and I am a.

[00:35:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Very outspoken feminist don't think that's a bad word I have a.

[00:35:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Son who is straight white conventionally handsome six foot tall.

[00:35:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Talented.

[00:35:31] [SPEAKER_01]: This gendered young man who I realized seldom here's masculinity discussed minus the word toxic right now I want to.

[00:35:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Be mindful this is not.

[00:35:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh but think of the boys you know I understand.

[00:35:58] [SPEAKER_01]: The privilege.

[00:36:00] [SPEAKER_01]: That said one of the things that we talk about when we talk about feminism or the patriarchy or yada yada yada these things that I know are.

[00:36:14] [SPEAKER_01]: We will scare certain people but I promise you it's probably.

[00:36:20] [SPEAKER_01]: It's probably just the labels that scare you these are ideas that most of us I think agree with but when we talk about that the patriarchy or feminism we're not just.

[00:36:33] [SPEAKER_01]: We want to talk about how patriarchy hurts men to write how it hurts all of us when you know in the context of this is a little academic but Kimberly Crenshaw's intersectional feminism.

[00:36:48] [SPEAKER_01]: The idea is you know when when one group any group is marginalized and unable to thrive or contribute to the limits of their own abilities right all of us suffer I think about us like we're all kind of cells in one big organism right.

[00:37:12] [SPEAKER_01]: And this organism is under threat right now and we're under threat from multiple directions right where are we're fighting with each other we are dealing with the environment we.

[00:37:31] [SPEAKER_01]: We have a lot going on that's that can be kind of scary and overwhelming we need everyone's talents we need everyone's talents we don't need any one group carrying the bulk of the responsibility and we don't need any group being kept from developing their abilities.

[00:37:49] [SPEAKER_01]: One of those people might have the idea that's gonna solve the problem right so we need to make space for everyone to develop their talents their intellects their abilities to contribute to the whole it's not about taking away from one another it's about.

[00:38:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Helping one another and so I was thinking about all of that and I was thinking about my son trying to.

[00:38:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Find an understanding of what it is to be a man and what it is to be a privileged man right and.

[00:38:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Wanting to help him find that space and not to.

[00:38:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Like that like there are two ways that folks can go when they when they feel like their identity is being villainized well hopefully there are more than two ways but.

[00:38:52] [SPEAKER_01]: But the two most often are the sort of.

[00:38:56] [SPEAKER_01]: guilt.

[00:38:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Or defensive aggression.

[00:39:03] [SPEAKER_01]: And I don't think either of those is a necessary or appropriate response.

[00:39:11] [SPEAKER_01]: You can understand that you were born into a system that is not equal for everyone and that you happen to have born into a slice of life that has.

[00:39:30] [SPEAKER_01]: A leg up.

[00:39:31] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's.

[00:39:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Not.

[00:39:35] [SPEAKER_01]: That's luck like there was nothing that was that's just fortune right but what we try to talk about is you don't need to feel guilty but you didn't you don't earn your luck before you get it that's why it's luck.

[00:39:50] [SPEAKER_01]: But you do earn your luck after so if you are born into this kind of privilege.

[00:39:58] [SPEAKER_01]: How can you use it to raise other people up and there are lots of ways to do that, and there are lots of ways to do that that can also celebrate.

[00:40:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Some of the wonderful qualities of masculinity right so so this big big ideas here thinking about this just thinking about all of that in terms of my own son.

[00:40:23] [SPEAKER_01]: And how to have those conversations with him and then I connected that to my son's fascination since he was very little with misunderstood monsters so my son has always loved.

[00:40:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Frankenstein and Godzilla and King Kong.

[00:40:49] [SPEAKER_01]: A lot of these archetypal they're not bad inherently but they're big and scary and everyone freaks out and then they hurt you know that sort of like oh it's this.

[00:41:05] [SPEAKER_01]: He's not really a monster just looks like a monster kind of thing and so I connected that.

[00:41:14] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm very careful here because I don't want to put it on my son I didn't you know he did not make that connection, I made that connection that there was something about.

[00:41:23] [SPEAKER_01]: That that was reflective of that conversation about masculinity and and trying to think of ways that we can celebrate.

[00:41:33] [SPEAKER_01]: The aspects of masculinity that were.

[00:41:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Pro social.

[00:41:40] [SPEAKER_01]: FML came out of that and then kind of expanded into having those conversations in the midst of.

[00:41:49] [SPEAKER_01]: You know there was a point here in Portland and the book is set in Portland there's a point here in Portland where we had the pandemic was at its height, we were at like.

[00:42:01] [SPEAKER_01]: You know empty grocery store shelves and you remember when like toilet paper was an issue right there was no vaccine we didn't know.

[00:42:13] [SPEAKER_01]: What quite how it spreads we were wiping things down, you know, and we have three generation family in this household grandma lives with us as well and we've very careful.

[00:42:24] [SPEAKER_01]: About her how we have three dogs and a guinea pig and there were.

[00:42:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Fires within a mile and a half of us, and we were checking the news for if we were going to have to evacuate and we had all of our windows sealed in pans of water out to collect particulates and.

[00:42:46] [SPEAKER_01]: And.

[00:42:48] [SPEAKER_01]: We were trying to figure out if they do tell us to evacuate where are we going to go and how are we going to go there with three dogs and again a pig and you know it was just like it felt like.

[00:43:04] [SPEAKER_01]: This is insanity and it looked like an apocalyptic movie outside I mean it was orange it was raining ash it was just crazy.

[00:43:15] [SPEAKER_02]: And you really capture that the high for lack of a better word in in the book of you know the kind of everyday violence you know whether that's a raging forest fire whether that's the possibility of a school shooting just being going on in the background and being.

[00:43:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Accepted as normally this is just the world we live in now and answer what the toll that takes on people you know kind of much like the true cram podcast blaring in the background talking about horrific things.

[00:43:40] [SPEAKER_02]: You have these actually perfect possibilities are horrific backdrops and one thing though that i wanted to ask you about if it's okay this is another one of your works that i read and i sort of was like maybe looking at some of the connections there but you did a wonderful story as serious stories.

[00:43:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Wonder woman his story at the amazons that sort of origins of the amazons and where wonder woman comes from which i love.

[00:44:06] [SPEAKER_02]: And one thing that is like a huge theme in that is just the you know eons of violence against women and sort of how how the amazons are sort of a reaction to that.

[00:44:17] [SPEAKER_02]: And that also even though it's a very different story kind of gets with this idea of this kind of world that is chaos is very violent sometimes there is no justice.

[00:44:27] [SPEAKER_02]: And i was wondering you know you talk about feminism and and sort of this huge intersection of that with true crime not to ramble too much but it's interesting to me actually men are the majority of murder victims you would not think that from coverage so

[00:44:46] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes there you go also men are more likely to kill strangers or men are more likely to be killed by strangers rather women are more likely to be killed by men.

[00:44:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Who are in an intimate relationship with them or have some sort of connection to their lives so there's a is much more of a you know kind of a personal thing there that women are at risk for but i guess you know kind of looking at that would you see that that's sort of a theme in some of your works.

[00:45:10] [SPEAKER_02]: I unpacking this idea that we live in a very chaotic very random and sometimes very violent space and we're trying to kind of look out for once we love but it can be very difficult to do so.

[00:45:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah i think it's another aspect of that embracing complexity right because you know i'm a military brat.

[00:45:32] [SPEAKER_01]: So i grew up on air force bases largely so i have been kind of steeped in the idea of armies that keep peace.

[00:45:48] [SPEAKER_01]: And i recognize there's some problematic logic there so i had a conversation with my artist.

[00:46:04] [SPEAKER_01]: I worked with three extraordinary artists on wonder woman historia i'm very very proud of that book and it has been.

[00:46:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Recognized critically in ways that do my heart good as well and keep me going but my my partner on the first book and his influences felt throughout because the whole of the book is really.

[00:46:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Did you ever watch Steven universe yes yeah okay got those vibes yeah there's a steven universe.

[00:46:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Steven universe is that an animated show it's for kids but it's it's terrific and there's a character who spoilers but okay this show has been out for a really long time so if you have not seen it at this point it is not my fault.

[00:47:02] [SPEAKER_01]: There is a character who you find out is actually made of two other characters and so there's a place where garnet says i am a conversation.

[00:47:15] [SPEAKER_01]: And i love that idea so much and i think because of the model that i work in with comic books there's there is there are a couple of different models so there's like the Dan clowes model where he is the full package cartoonist he does the whole thing all by him loathsome.

[00:47:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Although i would argue that i bet he doesn't i bet there are conversations that i'm kind of against the idea of the lone genius but that's a little bit of an aside.

[00:47:42] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sure Dan clowes has conversations with editors or friends or other colleagues in ways that contribute to his thinking because we don't just think solely in our own shells we think with our environments we think with our relationships we think with our friends.

[00:47:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Anyway that aside the way that i work in comics i work with an artist and a colorist and a letterer and an editor but the tightest.

[00:48:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Relationship in the development of one of these books is with the artist and i've been terrible not to mention my partner on fml right now david lopez who i need to get props to.

[00:48:22] [SPEAKER_01]: But coming back to the question about his story at my partner for the original book one of his story at a jama named phil him in his who is.

[00:48:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Justin extraordinary human being and very thoughtful and we had a lot of conversations in the development of that book and one of the conversations that we had early on was.

[00:48:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Phil adores wonder woman absolutely worships the character and has has a much more personal relationship to the character than i do i my relationship my special character is.

[00:49:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Lois lane because journalists are my heroes journalists and librarians and teachers i don't have that same feeling about.

[00:49:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Wonder woman i know the character of read the character you know my whole life my mom used to give me wonder woman comics for doing the dishes or whatever.

[00:49:21] [SPEAKER_01]: But i have the same attachment and we're talking about this stuff and this is a black label book which means it's out of continuity so we had sort of more freedom to change things or do things however we wanted and i talked about wanting to make.

[00:49:37] [SPEAKER_01]: The amazon's we refer to them as the amazon warriors and i wanted to see them as warriors and.

[00:49:44] [SPEAKER_01]: At first phil was very uncomfortable with that idea because he was really.

[00:49:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Wanted to kind of put this matriarchal society on a pedestal and like no you know the they are like i'm sure he didn't say love warriors or but you know it like like no they understand like love and community and i was like yeah but.

[00:50:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Here's the thing a pedestal is just another box right and.

[00:50:20] [SPEAKER_01]: As a woman.

[00:50:23] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think i am different from.

[00:50:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Men save for the way that.

[00:50:35] [SPEAKER_01]: I will have cultural experiences that men won't have right but.

[00:50:43] [SPEAKER_01]: I certainly have power fantasies i certainly have violent fantasies and revenge fantasies and i want to smack somebody who says something terrible to me right.

[00:50:57] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm five foot tall and have always kind of looked like a child i like to say that i could teach any man in any room about power fantasies people pick me up without asking.

[00:51:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Right like that's the thing that happens like i'm a doll so my my conversation with him with phil was like yes but but what you're.

[00:51:21] [SPEAKER_01]: I appreciate where you're coming from and i appreciate where marston was coming from our students wonder woman's creator who is a.

[00:51:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Very strange individual polygraph for every thing been to the polygraph that's true that's true yes so very true crime related also the reason i would never take a polygraph.

[00:51:42] [SPEAKER_01]: I appreciate the notion but at the same time i think it's diminishing i think.

[00:51:49] [SPEAKER_01]: That if you.

[00:51:51] [SPEAKER_01]: If you try this like.

[00:51:54] [SPEAKER_01]: idea that like women are women are better isn't any better than men are better like we are as different as our numbers just like men and so you know if we are doing this story that is.

[00:52:10] [SPEAKER_01]: A kind of reflection of ancient mythology and homerian epics ancient mythology and homerian epics are violent and also we're centering her polita as a homerian hero homerian heroes are flawed deeply flawed and.

[00:52:36] [SPEAKER_01]: And.

[00:52:39] [SPEAKER_01]: So as the book goes on will.

[00:52:45] [SPEAKER_01]: See more of.

[00:52:47] [SPEAKER_01]: The flaws in hipolita and kind of the dangers of the kind of complexity that she has to engage with and I don't think that makes her less of a hero, I think that just that's the reason that tragedies resonate right.

[00:53:01] [SPEAKER_02]: That book literally made me cry it's really good yeah it was it was really really good and it just a very interesting meditation on womanhood violence and community in the face of violence and finding that community so I thought it was really beautiful.

[00:53:18] [SPEAKER_01]: I do want to say with Historia that.

[00:53:20] [SPEAKER_01]: That.

[00:53:21] [SPEAKER_01]: The other thing about it was bringing it back to to wonder woman in the end there right and part of what I kind of.

[00:53:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Put to fill was.

[00:53:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Wonder woman gets to be that kind of peaceful loving warrior.

[00:53:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Because of the slings and arrows taken by para and hipolita.

[00:53:50] [SPEAKER_01]: And that was also.

[00:53:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Something that was.

[00:53:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Part of my meditations on the idea of of motherhood and.

[00:54:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Kind of some of the sacrifices like I will talk about.

[00:54:09] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm willing to make people uncomfortable sometimes so that my daughter doesn't have to write and so for her and hipolita to.

[00:54:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Kind of make some of the compromises that they make ideally so that Diana doesn't have to okay bringing that to a close.

[00:54:25] [SPEAKER_02]: I love.

[00:54:27] [SPEAKER_02]: So one thing I did want to go back to with fml and sort of a little bit forward looking so.

[00:54:34] [SPEAKER_02]: Do spoilers but you do set up somewhat of a possibility of you know sort of malevolent presence possible serial killer.

[00:54:44] [SPEAKER_02]: No that'll be unpacked I'm sure in issues to come but any sort of like.

[00:54:49] [SPEAKER_02]: As someone who's so interested in true crime and is telling the story how did you approach that kind of trope that we often see in fiction of the serial killer and.

[00:55:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Often in fiction that could be very different from real life but I guess like what were you sort of them what was he thinking on that and how did you kind of approach that.

[00:55:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Well one thing that I did was I contacted another one of my favorite to crime podcasters Josh hallmark who does to cry bullshit because Josh is extraordinarily good at.

[00:55:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Embracing.

[00:55:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Complexity being.

[00:55:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Vulnerable and fallible and he talks a lot about the ethical issues of.

[00:55:44] [SPEAKER_01]: True crime not only as a content creator but also as a consumer and so I reached out to him and.

[00:55:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Just asked for an informational interview on background although I am not a journalist and I think I'm using that word correctly because he did give me permission to say that we had spoken and I can't.

[00:56:05] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't have my notes from the interview in front of me but he did give me.

[00:56:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Council about.

[00:56:14] [SPEAKER_01]: His thoughts you know he's not a.

[00:56:18] [SPEAKER_01]: He's not a fiction writer but his his thoughts about what I would want to be careful about in ways that I might.

[00:56:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Be able to kind of offset any debt incurred from the larger universe by by producing this material and he was really terrific and then I'll tell you one thing that happened.

[00:56:40] [SPEAKER_01]: What I was very adamant that I didn't want to base.

[00:56:48] [SPEAKER_01]: The crime in the book on any real.

[00:56:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Murder after I finished and sent the book to a couple friends to read like just early issues and sent the book to a couple friends to read.

[00:57:04] [SPEAKER_01]: A friend of mine was like.

[00:57:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh is this supposed to be me as a part of.

[00:57:09] [SPEAKER_01]: And I was like.

[00:57:12] [SPEAKER_01]: No.

[00:57:16] [SPEAKER_01]: But I understand why you think that.

[00:57:20] [SPEAKER_01]: So for anybody who is not familiar me as a potter was a punk rock.

[00:57:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Singer with a band called the gets GITS in the Pacific Northwest in the nineties and she was murdered and that crime was unsolved for very very long time and it was one of the.

[00:57:47] [SPEAKER_01]: The many crimes that has been solved recently through improved technology which is a thing to celebrate but it.

[00:57:58] [SPEAKER_01]: It turns out to have just been in.

[00:58:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Is though these things could be more heartbreaking you know you kind of you you almost.

[00:58:11] [SPEAKER_01]: You want you have this you you being me have this idea that there's something that could offset it right that that like well somehow.

[00:58:30] [SPEAKER_01]: If she was murdered because.

[00:58:34] [SPEAKER_01]: She was this.

[00:58:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Mouthy outspoken.

[00:58:39] [SPEAKER_01]: In.

[00:58:41] [SPEAKER_01]: You know which her friends would say that maybe that is not an entirely.

[00:58:46] [SPEAKER_01]: None of us can be reduced to just a couple of adjectives but.

[00:58:51] [SPEAKER_01]: But because she was this.

[00:58:54] [SPEAKER_01]: This punk rock figure that somehow that would elevate her to a kind of.

[00:59:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Martyrdom well that's absurd right.

[00:59:04] [SPEAKER_01]: It's absurd but still somehow finding.

[00:59:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Out how random this crime actually was.

[00:59:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Makes it more painful in ways that i can't quite wrap my brain around.

[00:59:22] [SPEAKER_01]: And i actually reached out also to one of her bandmates Steve Marriott is his name and i would love to plug his book he's got a book.

[00:59:33] [SPEAKER_01]: On the gets that maybe you could link to in the show notes that's coming out i think this month maybe next month it's from feral books and the decision that i made.

[00:59:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Was.

[00:59:50] [SPEAKER_01]: That i would not go back and change anything.

[00:59:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Because the the similarities.

[01:00:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Very superficial.

[01:00:10] [SPEAKER_01]: And the book is not going exactly where you think it's going.

[01:00:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Which is good that's what you want right we like to be surprised by fiction i decided that i wouldn't change it but i did want to.

[01:00:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Acknowledge.

[01:00:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Mia and her story in some way to kind of offset the the that aforementioned debt Steve Moriarty spoke is called me as a potter and the gets a story of art rock and revolution.

[01:00:46] [SPEAKER_01]: And it isn't just centered on her death it's centered on her life and her connection to well her name is the potter so her connection to you revolutionaries and the music they made and the scene that they came from.

[01:01:05] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's really terrific and i hope everybody goes out and picks it up and maybe listens to some of the gets so i'm going to do some back matter in the book where we're going to.

[01:01:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Talk about her a bit and just kind of acknowledge it and you know it's like what you were talking about like with Jason where you don't.

[01:01:26] [SPEAKER_01]: You don't need to run away from or hide hide things like that just put it out like yeah i didn't intentionally you know i knew of me as a potter maybe it was in the back of my mind i didn't do it intentionally.

[01:01:39] [SPEAKER_01]: This character isn't based on her in any way shape or form but i can understand why someone might draw that connection and so let's talk about me as a potter.

[01:01:48] [SPEAKER_01]: In there was also there's a an ethical thing with you know these characters that are loosely based on my children right so I had to have a conversation with my kids about.

[01:02:00] [SPEAKER_01]: A character that is based on a living human being is not that living human being it's a starting place and I have a different set of rules for myself for adults and children if i'm going to choose to base a character on a living adults.

[01:02:16] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't feel the need to discuss it with them unless i think it will be very obvious in which case i'm probably not doing my job very well and also then.

[01:02:29] [SPEAKER_01]: You know I do want to give them a heads up but i don't want to give them veto power I hope that I would be responsible enough that they wouldn't want to veto anything but that's another conversation but with a kid.

[01:02:41] [SPEAKER_01]: It's an entirely different story and so we had to sit down and have a talk about you know are you okay with this because you have the power to tell me no.

[01:02:51] [SPEAKER_01]: These characters are not you guys patty is not me Riley is not Henry Lil is not to Lula but they did serve as starting places and some of the emotions are.

[01:03:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Real but.

[01:03:11] [SPEAKER_01]: But I can't protect.

[01:03:14] [SPEAKER_01]: fictional characters from danger or drama the way I want to protect my children from danger and drama but I do let them read the book they have the option of vetoing anything because my hope.

[01:03:27] [SPEAKER_01]: You know I don't there's nothing about me that wants to embarrass my children luckily my children think of themselves as writers and so I know it's not wonderful.

[01:03:40] [SPEAKER_01]: And so I have been able to approach it from that direction and give them the space to talk about it as writers as writers what are our responsibilities here.

[01:03:52] [SPEAKER_01]: And if you are in this position writing a story with a character based on one of your friends what would be your responsibility to your friend and you know how much would you let them into your thinking there.

[01:04:08] [SPEAKER_01]: You have to be careful letting too many people in to the creative process it gets muddied down or watered down not muddied down it's muddied or watered down.

[01:04:18] [SPEAKER_01]: But at the same time.

[01:04:22] [SPEAKER_01]: You know you the idea of putting stories into the world you know there's a stories are very powerful and anytime.

[01:04:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Well Kevin this is this is our moment this is our our spider-man moment where like with great power comes great responsibility.

[01:04:44] [SPEAKER_00]: Don't get me started on Stanley.

[01:04:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Well.

[01:04:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh we'll have to talk offline because I have some stories for you.

[01:04:52] [SPEAKER_00]: I want to hear them.

[01:04:53] [SPEAKER_01]: But that that is a great truth I think that Stanley put into the world this idea or articulated I'm sure he was not the burst but he articulated in a way that was really sticky that with great power comes great responsibility and I think you know with a platform such as yours you guys have been.

[01:05:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Really wonderful about being mindful of the responsibility that comes with that platform and I think when we're telling stories we have to be mindful of what what power those stories have and it's a thing you got to think about it.

[01:05:34] [SPEAKER_00]: And mentioning spider-man I feel obligated we talk about Stanley we need to acknowledge the huge creative contribution of Steve Ditko on Spider-Man and of course Jack Kirby on almost everything else Stanley did any value whatsoever.

[01:05:52] [SPEAKER_01]: A million times yes and for anybody who is in Los Angeles I believe right now there is a terrific Kirby exhibition that should still be up by the time this this airs and I would encourage everybody to go take a look at it because.

[01:06:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah so that is the thing that happens a lot in our industry for whatever reason particularly.

[01:06:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Corporate comics but not just corporate comics there are a lot of comics that are made and we can I've already talked your ears off and I want to be mindful of your time but the monthly comics require a kind of grind where things have to come out very quickly and that is the origin of why those duties were divided up now I happen to love it because I'm a

[01:06:41] [SPEAKER_01]: I love I have a theater background and I love collaborative art making and collaborative storytelling but I do want to take a moment to talk about David Lopez who is the artist and my collaborator on FML.

[01:06:55] [SPEAKER_01]: He and I worked on Captain Marvel together and we were at we were in LA for the premiere of Captain Marvel and having dinner with David and his family and my family and David said we should do a creator owned book together and I was like yes we should and then it took us.

[01:07:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Ten years maybe I don't think to find the right thing for us to do and he just he lives in Spain and he was just here for a week with his wife and daughter visiting all the locations in the book and beating himself for the ones that he had drawn differently based on photo reference and now he saw them in person he would be one to go back and draw them all again like David no.

[01:07:46] [SPEAKER_01]: But he is just a terrific terrific human being and a wonderful collaborator and a brilliant artist.

[01:07:56] [SPEAKER_00]: I thought it was kind of fun that you said one of your favorite characters was Lois Lane because of course your husband did a great comic book about Jimmy Olsen so that somehow seems.

[01:08:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes he did he did oh that's such a good book yes my husband is incredibly talented and really really funny and you know he did that Jimmy Olsen book because when Kirby went to DC Kirby did Jimmy Olsen and so Matt was like I want to do what Kirby did.

[01:08:33] [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm thinking probably a lot of people are the same situation as Anya Anya met me never been to a comic shop so if people have listened to this they have interested in FML how the heck do they get it.

[01:08:45] [SPEAKER_01]: I wish there was an easier answer I wish I could say that you know oh well you're going to go into your local 7-Eleven it'll be there on the spinner rack doesn't work like that anymore but what you can do is you can go to our website which is FML comics.

[01:09:09] [SPEAKER_01]: FML comix.com which I'm sure we will be able to link to in the show notes see how I sounded very professional like a big experienced podcaster there and you can also go to comic shop locator.com and if you put in your address or your zip code there it will pull up the stores that are near you.

[01:09:31] [SPEAKER_01]: But I'll have a little thing up on the FML website that will walk you through how to do it and a way to if you don't have a comic book shop that's near you and you'd still like to read the book ways that you can do that either digitally or through mail order we have a local store here that will send you copies and because they're local I'll be happy to sign them before they get sent so I'll have all of that information up on the website.

[01:09:56] [SPEAKER_01]: And then of course after the first eight issues come out they will be collected into a book with a spine and then those books will be available wherever books are sold so on bookshop the bookshop website is a good way to find that book through a local bookseller.

[01:10:14] [SPEAKER_00]: And comic book stores are not like they used to be not like they are on the Simpsons very places people are very friendly and willing and able to help you find comic books that you will love.

[01:10:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes yes and there's you know one of the things that I like to talk about a little bit in terms of comic book stores is.

[01:10:37] [SPEAKER_01]: There is.

[01:10:39] [SPEAKER_01]: No algorithm.

[01:10:41] [SPEAKER_01]: That can.

[01:10:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Help you find a book or navigate like if you're interested in starting into some of these shared universe superhero comics.

[01:10:55] [SPEAKER_01]: You know with a book like FML you it doesn't tie into anything else there's no you know it's fine find the one with the number one on it start there.

[01:11:05] [SPEAKER_01]: You know it'll be pretty easy but if you are interested in some of the other more shared universe comics it's a it's a really.

[01:11:15] [SPEAKER_01]: It's a terrific terrific community and people will crawl all over themselves to help you get started and to you know tell you about their favorite characters with their favorite storylines but the best place to find that is to go into your local comic shop where I like to refer

[01:11:34] [SPEAKER_01]: to them as comic book concierge or a comic book sommelier versus a comic book retailer because I think that the job that they do is they talk to you about the other things that you like.

[01:11:44] [SPEAKER_01]: The other areas of interest that you have you know what kinds of books or podcasts or whatever and then they can match you up and there are other true crime comics so you know there's and then there are there are lots of crime comics.

[01:12:00] [SPEAKER_01]: In fact Ed Brubaker is criminal series which is a terrific terrific series with Sean Phillips that they've been doing for years and years is shooting a TV show here right now so if you want to get ahead of that and bone up on criminal you can find those at your at your local comic book store.

[01:12:19] [SPEAKER_00]: Only after buying and reading FML.

[01:12:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Only after buying FML doesn't come out until November actually though so you know if you want to get if you want to warm up with the criminal you go right ahead I'll tell I'll tell Ed he owes me.

[01:12:35] [SPEAKER_02]: I shouldn't say this is the recovering alcoholic but you can pregame FML.

[01:12:39] [SPEAKER_01]: There you go exactly exactly.

[01:12:43] [SPEAKER_01]: We take our pleasures where we can get them.

[01:12:46] [SPEAKER_02]: Non alcoholic pre gaming.

[01:12:48] [SPEAKER_02]: So Kelly Sue it has been so delightful to talk to you I feel like we covered so many different things and just like this has been so fun for us and I just wanted to ask you is there anything that we did not ask you that you think it's important to emphasize wanted to talk about with FML all of your work crime in general anything you want.

[01:13:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh gosh I feel as though there is nothing I didn't say I think I spoke all of the words as I tend to rattle on a little bit when I'm nervous so good luck editing I don't know if you use other outside editors but my my love and apologies to them.

[01:13:24] [SPEAKER_01]: I guess the one thing that I would add which has very little to do with my book or with comics at all is maybe there is a conversation that we could have.

[01:13:46] [SPEAKER_01]: And by we I guess I mean true crime consumers as well as creators maybe there's a conversation we could have in tandem about developing a written articulated.

[01:14:05] [SPEAKER_01]: True crime code of ethics I happen to have a friend who is a.

[01:14:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Professor of ethics at Furman she and I went to high school together and I is the conversation I wanted to have with her like what is involved in developing a written code of ethics and you know.

[01:14:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Is that something that we could.

[01:14:36] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah it's a great idea I think it's a great idea I mean I'll say we have a little code of ethics code of policies that we we published just for just for us but industry wide thing would be super helpful as long as it included like I think there's so many different ways and think Jason said this.

[01:14:54] [SPEAKER_02]: I always say Jason is he's so insightful but I you know he mentioned like there's so many ways to do it you can be in a former law enforcement officer you can be a victim's advocate you can be someone.

[01:15:07] [SPEAKER_01]: A survivor a journalist and those all might look very different right but I think that difference would be articulated in the difference between a code of conduct and a code of ethics right.

[01:15:19] [SPEAKER_01]: So a code of conduct would be like specific rules for a particular event or online space but a code of ethics would be like here are the the ethical concerns and some thoughts around them that we.

[01:15:41] [SPEAKER_01]: By signing on to this code agree to take into account both when we when we produce material and also when we consume material that is related to true crime so that is just that's my that's my seed I would like to drop.

[01:16:08] [SPEAKER_01]: That I would be interested in at least helping to make a starting place for that you know and it's like anything else nobody has to sign on to it but we could you know here is a thing that a group of us have developed together that we think is inclusive and broad

[01:16:29] [SPEAKER_01]: and thoughtful and we're putting it out there in the world for you to consider and take up if you show choose and go on about your business if you don't.

[01:16:39] [SPEAKER_02]: I'd be very interested. Kelly Sue please help please save true crime for us because I feel we need to know no no no no no no no no no no.

[01:16:48] [SPEAKER_02]: No I think you're absolutely right though in all seriousness I think it's necessary I think out true crime podcast has been around for you know a hot minute so to speak and it's time to do some growing up I think as a as a medium and as a genre because.

[01:17:05] It.

[01:17:05] [SPEAKER_02]: When it goes wrong it's not good and I think we all owe it to our audiences but also owe it to the people at the center of these horrible stories to really try to get it right that doesn't mean being perfect that doesn't but it means having some kind of standard that we can look towards.

[01:17:21] [SPEAKER_02]: And frankly I think a lot of the bad behavior is just through people not really thinking it out and not having that kind of framework and perhaps if that framework were available to more people in a way that we can all agree upon I think it would be helpful for people avoiding some mistakes that could end up hurting people.

[01:17:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think there are very few actual mustache twirling villains in the world most people who act poorly either have the best of intentions or coming out of a place of fear.

[01:17:50] [SPEAKER_01]: I think if we could articulate for ourselves and for one another things that we want to bear in mind as we think through these things and as we consume these things then.

[01:18:04] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think I can't envision a way in which it could hurt I'd be open to hearing anyone who could see ways that it could hurt but I.

[01:18:14] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't I think it could do nothing but.

[01:18:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Help us to kind of bring all of the brains the way we sort of talked about like you know like.

[01:18:26] [SPEAKER_01]: You know the Avengers right you want a team of.

[01:18:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Six iron man right because then whatever will take down one iron man will take down six iron men but the idea of the Avengers is that will all bring our gifts to bear and together we can support one another and everyone's talents and abilities and viewpoints can make the group stronger and so I think if we were to take some kind of approach developing it like that how do we think about it.

[01:18:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Put forward a starting place and then have some Avenue for discussion or enrichment to broaden it out and then see if we could come to something that everyone who contributed could agree upon to adopt I think that that would I don't know I think it'd be.

[01:19:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Healthy for the space potentially anyway just a thought.

[01:19:20] [SPEAKER_02]: I love it well thank you so much and everyone would approach I think they're true crime projects with the empathy and level of attention and thoughtfulness that you approach fml and just dealing with you know.

[01:19:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Real world influences the interesting discussions a true crime I think the space would be a lot healthier and so we just thank you for taking the time we really enjoyed this work and again.

[01:19:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Everyone should go out and buy fml once it's available don't be a stranger yeah we know.

[01:19:46] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm like I think part of the.

[01:19:51] [SPEAKER_01]: The part of the reason that I have kept you for like an hour and 40 minutes now is the fact that I have.

[01:19:58] [SPEAKER_01]: This before mentioned parasocial relationship where I feel like oh no no we're just friends catching up because because I hear you once or twice a week in my ear and I appreciate you keeping me company and how how thoughtful you are.

[01:20:14] [SPEAKER_01]: In all of this you are you're very gifted lovely brave people and I appreciate you.

[01:20:22] [SPEAKER_02]: We want to thank you for coming on our show we really enjoyed talking with her please check out her books and pre order fml will include links to do all that in our show notes and definitely make sure you grab fml which we strongly recommend.

[01:20:37] [SPEAKER_02]: We'll also include links to other works and all the books she mentioned in the show.

[01:20:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks so much for listening to the murder sheet if you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover please email us at murder sheet at gmail.com.

[01:20:52] [SPEAKER_00]: If you have actionable information about an unsolved crime please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[01:21:02] [SPEAKER_02]: If you're interested in joining our patreon that's available at www.patreon.com slash murder sheet if you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests you can do so at www buy me a coffee.com slash murder sheet.

[01:21:21] [SPEAKER_02]: We very much appreciate any support.

[01:21:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee who composed the music for the murder sheet and who you can find on the web at Kevin TG.com.

[01:21:35] [SPEAKER_02]: If you're looking to talk with other listeners about a case we've covered you can join the murder sheet discussion group on Facebook.

[01:21:42] [SPEAKER_02]: We mostly focus our time on research and reporting so we're not on social media much.

[01:21:49] [SPEAKER_02]: We do try to check our email account but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages.

[01:21:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Thanks again for listening.

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