Kendallville Killings: A True Crime Tour Through Indiana's Noble County

[00:00:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much for coming out tonight. We're incredibly grateful. Yeah, can you hear

[00:00:12] [SPEAKER_00]: us all right? You can hear me but not Kevin. Yeah, you do. It's a constant editing problem

[00:00:24] [SPEAKER_00]: unfortunately. But now you all can experience it. Before we get started, we just want to

[00:00:30] [SPEAKER_00]: give some thanks to a lot of people who made this event happen tonight. We're super excited

[00:00:36] [SPEAKER_00]: about this but Jane Meyer for connecting us with the fine folks at the Community Learning

[00:00:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Center, Amanda Blackman for her case suggestions. Thanks to Robin and all the volunteers who

[00:00:47] [SPEAKER_00]: are making this all possible. Thanks to Julia Tipton, the Executive Director of the Community

[00:00:52] [SPEAKER_00]: Learning Center. Thanks to Andy Buran, the Programming and Marketing Director of

[00:00:57] [SPEAKER_00]: the Community Learning Center who you just heard from. And just the CLC in general, this

[00:01:01] [SPEAKER_00]: is a terrific organization and it's all about self-improvement and education and we just

[00:01:06] [SPEAKER_00]: think it's really neat and it's cool. It's a really cool building so that's kind of

[00:01:11] [SPEAKER_00]: our thing. So we really dig it. I like to always go our sources with the whole kind

[00:01:17] [SPEAKER_00]: of, I call it a journalist Miranda's rights before I talk to them. So I'm going to

[00:01:21] [SPEAKER_00]: do that all of you right now quickly before we get started. And so Kevin can kind

[00:01:25] [SPEAKER_00]: of set up the equipment in the background. But as Andy mentioned, this is a live podcast.

[00:01:31] [SPEAKER_00]: This is going to go on our feed unless things go terribly wrong which I'm sure they won't.

[00:01:38] [SPEAKER_00]: And so just keep that in mind if you want to share any stories or ask any questions,

[00:01:42] [SPEAKER_00]: it will be used. So if you want to be anonymous, that's okay. You don't have to give your

[00:01:46] [SPEAKER_00]: full name or you could just give your first name or make up a name, make an alias.

[00:01:50] [SPEAKER_00]: You could do whatever you like. But yeah, I'm trying to think of things. We'll give little

[00:01:56] [SPEAKER_00]: content warnings as we go into each of our specific tendovil centric stories. And at

[00:02:02] [SPEAKER_00]: the end though, we're going to open it back up to you. So once we get halfway done and

[00:02:07] [SPEAKER_00]: we want to hear from you, we want you to ask questions. Please ask questions or

[00:02:11] [SPEAKER_00]: we're just going to be vamping for the rest of the time and maybe do a little

[00:02:15] [SPEAKER_00]: dance. I don't know, it could get pretty embarrassing. So yeah, just keep that in

[00:02:21] [SPEAKER_00]: mind. But we're really excited and yeah, looking forward to this. Been looking

[00:02:26] [SPEAKER_00]: forward to this for a while. So it's so real. This is happening and we've never

[00:02:30] [SPEAKER_00]: done a live podcast before. So we don't know what we're doing. So apologies in advance.

[00:02:38] [SPEAKER_00]: Is there anything else I forgot about Kevin? That's it. Wow. I guess I

[00:02:43] [SPEAKER_00]: nailed it. Alrighty, so yeah, let's go on the record. So general content warning for

[00:02:51] [SPEAKER_00]: this episode. This episode one can contain stories that involve the death of a

[00:02:55] [SPEAKER_00]: child violence as well as domestic violence specifically and of course murder.

[00:03:02] [SPEAKER_00]: So we're always fascinated by small Indiana towns and in particular strange

[00:03:09] [SPEAKER_00]: crimes that happen in places like Kendallville. And sometimes when we talk

[00:03:13] [SPEAKER_00]: to people, they're not even aware of some of these crimes or mysteries of the

[00:03:18] [SPEAKER_00]: past. But I can tell you without failure, there's always something if you are

[00:03:24] [SPEAKER_00]: willing to really look on newspapers.com. And so we picked out a few selections

[00:03:30] [SPEAKER_00]: that we're going to talk about tonight that happened either in or around

[00:03:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Kendallville. My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist and I'm Kevin Greenlee.

[00:03:39] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm an attorney and this is the murder sheet. We're a true crime podcast

[00:03:44] [SPEAKER_01]: focused on original reporting, interviews and deep dives into murder cases.

[00:03:49] [SPEAKER_00]: Where's the murder sheet? And this is the Kendallville killings, a true

[00:03:53] [SPEAKER_00]: crime tour through Indiana's Noble County. See, one secret is that Kevin

[00:04:42] [SPEAKER_00]: likes punchy short, you know, headlines or episode titles. And I

[00:04:47] [SPEAKER_00]: like insanely long one. So that's I guess the two genders for some reason.

[00:04:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so my sources for this first one are the Fort Wayne News in Sentinel,

[00:04:59] [SPEAKER_00]: the South Bend Tribune Star Press and the Fort Wayne Journal Gazette. And

[00:05:04] [SPEAKER_00]: then in a more modern instance, KPC News. So mysteries and, you know,

[00:05:11] [SPEAKER_00]: disappearances can really hit close to home. And when I was researching

[00:05:15] [SPEAKER_00]: this one, I found out that this one does very specifically for the

[00:05:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Community Learning Center. So this case actually unfolded right here on

[00:05:27] [SPEAKER_00]: the intersection of Diamond and Riley Street, on Garden Street outside

[00:05:31] [SPEAKER_00]: on Water Street. So this, when we talk about a local case, this is

[00:05:35] [SPEAKER_00]: specifically like right here. So I started freaking out when I saw

[00:05:39] [SPEAKER_00]: that because I didn't intend that. I'd like to say that I'm just that

[00:05:43] [SPEAKER_00]: knowledgeable, but it just happened completely. I remember I was looking

[00:05:46] [SPEAKER_00]: on Google Maps, I'm like, oh, Diamond and Riley Streets, I wonder if

[00:05:49] [SPEAKER_00]: that's near the CLC. And I was like, that is the CLC. Okay. And this is

[00:05:56] [SPEAKER_00]: a very sad case. Unfortunately, it does involve the death of a child. So I

[00:05:59] [SPEAKER_00]: just want to give a content warning. If you want to step out, we won't

[00:06:03] [SPEAKER_00]: be offended. We always give ample content warnings for everybody. But

[00:06:06] [SPEAKER_00]: I will say this is not a gory or violent story in any way. So it's

[00:06:11] [SPEAKER_00]: Saturday afternoon, it's March 16th, 1918. And a little boy named

[00:06:16] [SPEAKER_00]: Francis Schaffer, he's two and a half years old. He is adorable. I've

[00:06:20] [SPEAKER_00]: seen pictures of him in the Fort Wayne Journal Gazette. He's got

[00:06:24] [SPEAKER_00]: dark hair, bright blue eyes. He was wearing his little christening

[00:06:28] [SPEAKER_00]: gown. And he's got problems with his feet where he has like to

[00:06:31] [SPEAKER_00]: wear steel braces. But he's a happy beloved child. His parents are

[00:06:36] [SPEAKER_00]: Mr. and Mrs. Thurlow W. Schaffer. And unfortunately, they don't give

[00:06:41] [SPEAKER_00]: his mom's name in the newspaper, but they're a couple and they live

[00:06:44] [SPEAKER_00]: on Garden Street. And so around 520 that day, he went outside to

[00:06:50] [SPEAKER_00]: play. And back then 1918, it's a different time. I think there

[00:06:56] [SPEAKER_00]: you know, was perhaps less concern about safety, even with such a

[00:07:01] [SPEAKER_00]: small child. But you know, Mrs. Schaffer looks away for about 15

[00:07:06] [SPEAKER_00]: minutes and 15 minutes past she calls for Francis. He doesn't

[00:07:11] [SPEAKER_00]: come back. She starts becoming concerned. She goes to the

[00:07:15] [SPEAKER_00]: neighbor. She says, Have you seen a little boy in black shoes?

[00:07:18] [SPEAKER_00]: He's wearing a little gingham dress. And back then boys and girls

[00:07:23] [SPEAKER_00]: wore dresses up to a certain age. And she kind of learned

[00:07:27] [SPEAKER_00]: that some people had seen him around. And Mrs. Bolton saw Francis

[00:07:33] [SPEAKER_00]: on Water Street, which is a stone's throw from here. And then

[00:07:38] [SPEAKER_00]: another witness saw him around the central building. And that used

[00:07:42] [SPEAKER_00]: to be where diamond and Riley Streets are, which of course is

[00:07:45] [SPEAKER_00]: where we're today. So that's pretty wild. So people are

[00:07:49] [SPEAKER_00]: seeing this little boy on the move. But then deciding

[00:07:52] [SPEAKER_00]: stop. So around 745 at night that evening, the authorities ring

[00:08:00] [SPEAKER_00]: the central fire alarm in town and the Kendallville residents all

[00:08:04] [SPEAKER_00]: gather to deal with this emergency. They're looking in

[00:08:08] [SPEAKER_00]: cisterns. They're looking in abandoned houses. They're looking

[00:08:11] [SPEAKER_00]: in vacant lots. They bring in bloodhounds. And theories seem

[00:08:16] [SPEAKER_00]: to be somewhat split between kidnapping and some kind of

[00:08:21] [SPEAKER_00]: accident. And one thing that we found was that they actually

[00:08:25] [SPEAKER_00]: dragged a nearby creek for about a mile. Now sources listed

[00:08:30] [SPEAKER_00]: this is one problem you'll find in old newspaper accounts,

[00:08:33] [SPEAKER_00]: everything has different names. But one calls it Debele Creek. I

[00:08:37] [SPEAKER_00]: may be saying that wrong. And if so, I apologize. But I believe

[00:08:40] [SPEAKER_00]: that it's the same as Bixler Lake Ditch. And Mary UC Brouse at

[00:08:46] [SPEAKER_00]: the time was like a huge part of this he was leading the

[00:08:49] [SPEAKER_00]: search is he was going around everywhere. He was actually going

[00:08:52] [SPEAKER_00]: off to adjacent towns and just like asking everybody had they

[00:08:56] [SPEAKER_00]: seen this little kid. And this is a quote he gave to the

[00:08:59] [SPEAKER_00]: Fort Wayne News in Sentinel, if the people of Kendallville

[00:09:02] [SPEAKER_00]: had been searching for a little lost red Apple, I do not

[00:09:05] [SPEAKER_00]: believe it could have escaped being found if the same

[00:09:08] [SPEAKER_00]: energy had been used as we have used in our search for

[00:09:11] [SPEAKER_00]: the Schaffer child, all the combined judgment, ingenuity,

[00:09:15] [SPEAKER_00]: painstaking effort of our citizens have been used and

[00:09:18] [SPEAKER_00]: we are no further ahead than we were 48 hours ago, except

[00:09:22] [SPEAKER_00]: that we know we have done our full duty, though without

[00:09:24] [SPEAKER_00]: success. The police department is an overdrive the fire

[00:09:28] [SPEAKER_00]: department, Schaffer kin from all around from Ligonier from

[00:09:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Kimmel will walk up rim field they're coming in to help. And

[00:09:38] [SPEAKER_00]: thousands of people turn out. And at some point, police

[00:09:42] [SPEAKER_00]: begin to think that this must be an abduction because they

[00:09:45] [SPEAKER_00]: just can't find him so it must be foul play. On March 21, the

[00:09:51] [SPEAKER_00]: tragedy unfortunately culminates. Little Francis's body was

[00:09:54] [SPEAKER_00]: found at the mouth of Henderson Lake. And this actually the

[00:09:59] [SPEAKER_00]: Bixler Lake ditch flows from Bixler Lake into Henderson is

[00:10:04] [SPEAKER_00]: what I read. And authorities very quickly decided that

[00:10:09] [SPEAKER_00]: this must be foul play because they felt we couldn't have

[00:10:12] [SPEAKER_00]: missed this. And they felt that the child's body was in very

[00:10:16] [SPEAKER_00]: good condition, almost like he hadn't been out there long. So

[00:10:21] [SPEAKER_00]: in addition to that, his lungs did not have water in them.

[00:10:24] [SPEAKER_00]: There were no marks on the body. So it's all very mysterious.

[00:10:27] [SPEAKER_00]: Police decide all of this has to fit foul play. And so their

[00:10:32] [SPEAKER_00]: theory was that the baby was poisoned. So they turned to

[00:10:39] [SPEAKER_00]: local coroner W L Cowan and Dr. C. C. Grandi of Fort Wayne, and

[00:10:45] [SPEAKER_00]: they asked them can you determine what happened? So on

[00:10:49] [SPEAKER_00]: March 22 of that year, Cowan is like working late into the

[00:10:53] [SPEAKER_00]: night on this inquest. Grandi actually takes the train up to

[00:10:58] [SPEAKER_00]: Chicago. Well, first he goes to Fort Wayne, then he goes to

[00:11:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Chicago to do tests and figure out if there was poison.

[00:11:04] [SPEAKER_00]: And when he came back, he had really shocking news. The

[00:11:09] [SPEAKER_00]: test results were completely negative. There was no poison.

[00:11:13] [SPEAKER_00]: And so the mystery remained. And the end of the sort of

[00:11:16] [SPEAKER_00]: newspaper coverage, I mean, that sort of actually marks the

[00:11:20] [SPEAKER_00]: end of the newspaper coverage. Once it became clear that

[00:11:22] [SPEAKER_00]: there was no poison, and they couldn't figure out what

[00:11:25] [SPEAKER_00]: happened. People stopped covering it. And so this is

[00:11:31] [SPEAKER_00]: one of those cases where obviously, I don't I don't

[00:11:34] [SPEAKER_00]: believe in podcasters solving crimes. I just think

[00:11:37] [SPEAKER_00]: that's something that's best left to like the Hallmark

[00:11:40] [SPEAKER_00]: movies or something like that. You know, if you know, you

[00:11:43] [SPEAKER_00]: know. But you know, I think it's I think it's silly. I

[00:11:46] [SPEAKER_00]: think journalists and people in media can really do positive

[00:11:51] [SPEAKER_00]: things with cases but not solve them. And so we're not

[00:11:54] [SPEAKER_00]: going to try to solve this case. But maybe let's look at

[00:11:56] [SPEAKER_00]: it through having some information that perhaps

[00:11:59] [SPEAKER_00]: people in 1918 did not have. Because whenever I'm a

[00:12:04] [SPEAKER_00]: history major, so whenever I talk about the past, I

[00:12:06] [SPEAKER_00]: really try not to denigrate people from the past, like, we

[00:12:10] [SPEAKER_00]: don't need to be like, Oh, they're stupid. They don't know

[00:12:12] [SPEAKER_00]: this or that. You know, they just we have technology that

[00:12:15] [SPEAKER_00]: they didn't, you know, there's no reason for us to feel

[00:12:16] [SPEAKER_00]: fancy about that. But we can look and see, well, where did

[00:12:21] [SPEAKER_00]: maybe their investigation go wrong? Like, one thing

[00:12:28] [SPEAKER_00]: that kind of stood out to me was the fact that Little

[00:12:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Francis didn't have water in his lungs. So they took

[00:12:34] [SPEAKER_00]: that to mean he didn't drown. Well, one thing that if you

[00:12:38] [SPEAKER_00]: actually look at the literature on this in forensic

[00:12:40] [SPEAKER_00]: science is that 10 to 15% of drowning victims do not

[00:12:46] [SPEAKER_00]: have water in their lungs. And the reason is because

[00:12:48] [SPEAKER_00]: it's called a process called dry drowning where your

[00:12:52] [SPEAKER_00]: larynx, I'm not a doctor, so I'm sorry if I get any of

[00:12:55] [SPEAKER_00]: this wrong. But my understanding is that your

[00:12:57] [SPEAKER_00]: larynx essentially spasms and it prevents the water

[00:12:59] [SPEAKER_00]: from getting into your lungs, but you are effectively

[00:13:01] [SPEAKER_00]: drowning. In addition to that, they talk about the body

[00:13:07] [SPEAKER_00]: being in really good shape and them not expecting

[00:13:09] [SPEAKER_00]: that. Well, if you look at the Times Record News' data

[00:13:13] [SPEAKER_00]: compilation of Noble County in 1918 for March, which I

[00:13:18] [SPEAKER_00]: did extensively, the average temperature was 41 degrees.

[00:13:23] [SPEAKER_00]: So that's pretty cool. Cool temperatures tend to slow

[00:13:26] [SPEAKER_00]: down any issues with decomposition on a body.

[00:13:29] [SPEAKER_00]: And I do think, I'll grant you that it's unusual that the

[00:13:33] [SPEAKER_00]: body would not be injured kind of traveling along a

[00:13:36] [SPEAKER_00]: little ditch or a little creek. But he was a very

[00:13:39] [SPEAKER_00]: small boy. So when I look at this and I also

[00:13:43] [SPEAKER_00]: consider that in 2024 in the era of mommy and me

[00:13:47] [SPEAKER_00]: swim classes and swim lessons and kids getting

[00:13:50] [SPEAKER_00]: involved in competitive swimming, we still have for

[00:13:54] [SPEAKER_00]: kids one through four, the leading cause of death

[00:13:58] [SPEAKER_00]: is drowning. So when I see this, it's definitely a

[00:14:02] [SPEAKER_00]: mystery, but it looks to me more like an accidental

[00:14:04] [SPEAKER_00]: death and still very much a tragedy as opposed to

[00:14:09] [SPEAKER_00]: a murder mystery as they saw it back in the day.

[00:14:12] [SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, that's our first case. That's the story

[00:14:16] [SPEAKER_00]: of little Francis Schaffer. And I guess it was

[00:14:19] [SPEAKER_00]: interesting to read about just obviously just a very

[00:14:22] [SPEAKER_00]: tragic human story for this family, but also

[00:14:25] [SPEAKER_00]: just kind of fascinating to see how Kendallville

[00:14:27] [SPEAKER_00]: really came together to deal with this horrible

[00:14:29] [SPEAKER_00]: situation. And because it really was horrible, but

[00:14:32] [SPEAKER_00]: you could really see people pulling together all

[00:14:35] [SPEAKER_00]: the different departments working with one another.

[00:14:37] [SPEAKER_00]: Every expense, every resource was put into this.

[00:14:40] [SPEAKER_00]: And unfortunately they didn't get there and that

[00:14:43] [SPEAKER_00]: that does happen sometimes in sort of mysteries and

[00:14:46] [SPEAKER_00]: crime cases. It's nobody's fault, but they

[00:14:49] [SPEAKER_00]: perhaps just lacked the technology and knowledge

[00:14:52] [SPEAKER_00]: to get to a real conclusion at the time.

[00:14:55] [SPEAKER_01]: And I was distraught by the different standards of

[00:14:58] [SPEAKER_01]: different times because I can not imagine today

[00:15:01] [SPEAKER_01]: letting a two year old child be out and about

[00:15:04] [SPEAKER_01]: unsupervised. That was just unbelievable to me,

[00:15:08] [SPEAKER_01]: but we can't judge, as Ania rightly points out,

[00:15:11] [SPEAKER_01]: we can't judge people from the past based on

[00:15:13] [SPEAKER_01]: the standards of today. So I'm going to talk

[00:15:17] [SPEAKER_01]: about a case that involves domestic violence

[00:15:20] [SPEAKER_01]: and my sources for this were several

[00:15:23] [SPEAKER_01]: newspapers, the Tip and Daily Tribune, the

[00:15:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Garrett Clipper, the Indianapolis Star, the

[00:15:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Indianapolis Times and the Muncie Evening Press.

[00:15:31] [SPEAKER_01]: And the woman at the center of this was named

[00:15:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Emma Menzel. And there was a lot of talk in

[00:15:38] [SPEAKER_01]: the papers that she was a strikingly

[00:15:40] [SPEAKER_01]: beautiful woman. People especially loved her

[00:15:43] [SPEAKER_01]: hair and they called her Blondie.

[00:15:46] [SPEAKER_01]: And the story makes me sad because in some

[00:15:50] [SPEAKER_01]: ways this woman seemed to be cursed. She had

[00:15:53] [SPEAKER_01]: a very rough life. She had some very

[00:15:55] [SPEAKER_01]: unfortunate things happen to her. When she

[00:15:59] [SPEAKER_01]: was 18 years old, she worked at a restaurant

[00:16:01] [SPEAKER_01]: here in Kendallville with a friend of hers

[00:16:04] [SPEAKER_01]: named Florence Mus, primary Florence Huss,

[00:16:08] [SPEAKER_01]: and they became friendly with a doctor named

[00:16:12] [SPEAKER_01]: C.C. Creight who was an eye doctor. This man

[00:16:14] [SPEAKER_01]: is in his sixties. And it's World Series

[00:16:17] [SPEAKER_01]: time. He wins a bet. He says let's

[00:16:20] [SPEAKER_01]: celebrate. And he takes the two of them to

[00:16:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Fort Wayne to what is described as a dance

[00:16:26] [SPEAKER_01]: pavilion. I'm not sure what a dance pavilion

[00:16:28] [SPEAKER_00]: is. What on earth is that? It doesn't sound

[00:16:31] [SPEAKER_01]: good. But they must have a nice time there.

[00:16:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Afterwards, they go out for dinner and

[00:16:38] [SPEAKER_01]: for whatever reason, the doctor, the eye

[00:16:40] [SPEAKER_01]: doctor decides to let Florence drive.

[00:16:44] [SPEAKER_01]: The road conditions are set behind a dark

[00:16:46] [SPEAKER_01]: and foggy. And as they are driving along

[00:16:50] [SPEAKER_01]: on the road, a bit of a train car is

[00:16:53] [SPEAKER_01]: overlapping into the road. And Emma is

[00:16:58] [SPEAKER_01]: driving at about 40 miles an hour and she

[00:17:01] [SPEAKER_01]: hits it. And her friend suffers

[00:17:05] [SPEAKER_01]: life-changing injuries. Severe jaw

[00:17:08] [SPEAKER_01]: issues. She's blinded in one eye.

[00:17:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Just awful. The doctor is killed.

[00:17:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Emma herself just suffers some cuts and

[00:17:19] [SPEAKER_01]: bruises and is otherwise okay. Her

[00:17:23] [SPEAKER_01]: friend Florence ends up suing the

[00:17:25] [SPEAKER_01]: railroad company for their negligence

[00:17:27] [SPEAKER_01]: in leaving the railroad car in the

[00:17:30] [SPEAKER_01]: middle of the road. And the papers went

[00:17:33] [SPEAKER_01]: crazy saying she won a record

[00:17:36] [SPEAKER_01]: settlement in that case. And the amount

[00:17:39] [SPEAKER_01]: she won was $22,000 which I guess

[00:17:42] [SPEAKER_01]: was a lot of money. I wouldn't mind

[00:17:45] [SPEAKER_00]: that.

[00:17:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Emma goes on with her life. She stays

[00:17:50] [SPEAKER_01]: working at the restaurant and she falls

[00:17:53] [SPEAKER_01]: in love with a man named Marion

[00:17:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Casebeer. He is actually an out-of-towner.

[00:18:00] [SPEAKER_01]: He works for a dairy company in Ohio.

[00:18:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Part of his job, he regularly makes

[00:18:05] [SPEAKER_01]: trips over to Indiana. I guess maybe

[00:18:07] [SPEAKER_01]: delivering milk or what have you.

[00:18:10] [SPEAKER_01]: They fall in love and Emma becomes pregnant.

[00:18:16] [SPEAKER_01]: And what she doesn't know is that Marion

[00:18:19] [SPEAKER_01]: is married to a woman in Ohio.

[00:18:22] [SPEAKER_01]: And the two of them get into an argument

[00:18:27] [SPEAKER_01]: and it said that the topic of the

[00:18:29] [SPEAKER_01]: argument was marriage. So she obviously

[00:18:31] [SPEAKER_01]: wanted him to marry her. And he had

[00:18:34] [SPEAKER_01]: another point of view. They are last

[00:18:37] [SPEAKER_01]: seen driving in off together and her

[00:18:42] [SPEAKER_01]: friends assume that they went out and

[00:18:45] [SPEAKER_01]: eloped. But that's not what happened.

[00:18:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Nine days later, they find the bodies

[00:18:51] [SPEAKER_01]: of both of them in a car in the woods.

[00:18:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Emma was strangled and then shot.

[00:18:59] [SPEAKER_01]: And she had wounds that suggested she

[00:19:02] [SPEAKER_01]: really struggled for her life.

[00:19:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Marion was dead of poison and actually

[00:19:08] [SPEAKER_01]: there were two bottles of poison found

[00:19:10] [SPEAKER_01]: just outside the car which led police

[00:19:13] [SPEAKER_01]: to speculate that maybe he'd had an

[00:19:15] [SPEAKER_01]: idea that both of them would take the

[00:19:17] [SPEAKER_01]: poison and Emma just didn't want to.

[00:19:21] [SPEAKER_01]: And he left a note behind saying

[00:19:24] [SPEAKER_01]: the girl is named Emma Menzel, the boy

[00:19:27] [SPEAKER_01]: is named Marion Casebeer. And that

[00:19:30] [SPEAKER_01]: was it. He had no other explanation.

[00:19:33] [SPEAKER_01]: I guess there isn't really much more he

[00:19:34] [SPEAKER_01]: could have said to explain it.

[00:19:37] [SPEAKER_01]: And kind of a sad post script is a

[00:19:40] [SPEAKER_01]: couple of months later Emma's father

[00:19:43] [SPEAKER_01]: who was just in his early 50s, which

[00:19:46] [SPEAKER_01]: now seems very young to me,

[00:19:50] [SPEAKER_01]: he died and they said he died of a

[00:19:52] [SPEAKER_01]: broken heart because he wasn't the

[00:19:53] [SPEAKER_01]: same after he lost his daughter.

[00:19:54] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's a really sad one that you

[00:19:56] [SPEAKER_00]: found.

[00:19:59] [SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, I think it's kind of

[00:20:01] [SPEAKER_00]: underscores when you have that sort of

[00:20:03] [SPEAKER_00]: domestic violence type murder. We

[00:20:05] [SPEAKER_00]: sometimes I think think of crimes as like

[00:20:07] [SPEAKER_00]: oh that seems kind of modern or whatever

[00:20:09] [SPEAKER_00]: but things like that have always happened.

[00:20:12] [SPEAKER_01]: It almost sounded like something out

[00:20:13] [SPEAKER_01]: of a film noir, this beautiful woman

[00:20:16] [SPEAKER_01]: known as Blondie in Love with a Married Man

[00:20:19] [SPEAKER_01]: and it happened right here in Kindleville.

[00:20:21] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's absolutely tragic.

[00:20:24] [SPEAKER_00]: This is another older one and it

[00:20:27] [SPEAKER_00]: involves a guy who at one point

[00:20:30] [SPEAKER_00]: was held in the Noble County Jail

[00:20:32] [SPEAKER_00]: around 1922 and all the jailers loved him.

[00:20:36] [SPEAKER_00]: They thought this guy was awesome, they

[00:20:37] [SPEAKER_00]: thought he was the nicest guy, just

[00:20:39] [SPEAKER_00]: funniest, just wonderful guy to hang out

[00:20:41] [SPEAKER_00]: with but his name was Hugh Postal

[00:20:44] [SPEAKER_00]: and he was certainly capable of a lot

[00:20:46] [SPEAKER_00]: of evil. And I think this story of

[00:20:49] [SPEAKER_00]: what he did in Kindleville and all

[00:20:51] [SPEAKER_00]: the chances he was given in life

[00:20:54] [SPEAKER_00]: really tells us something about both

[00:20:55] [SPEAKER_00]: the justice system of the 1920s.

[00:20:58] [SPEAKER_00]: I know a very exciting topic and just

[00:21:02] [SPEAKER_00]: kind of crime in general.

[00:21:04] [SPEAKER_00]: So my sources for this are the Garrett

[00:21:05] [SPEAKER_00]: Clipper, the Waterloo Press, the Indianapolis

[00:21:08] [SPEAKER_00]: News and the Asheville Weekly Citizen.

[00:21:11] [SPEAKER_00]: We're going into North Carolina for

[00:21:12] [SPEAKER_00]: this one for a little bit of a flashback.

[00:21:15] [SPEAKER_00]: So it was the night of August 20th, 1922

[00:21:20] [SPEAKER_00]: to kind of scene set a little bit.

[00:21:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Prohibition is two years old at this point.

[00:21:25] [SPEAKER_00]: You're not supposed to be boozing

[00:21:26] [SPEAKER_00]: anymore. People still are, but you know

[00:21:30] [SPEAKER_00]: it's definitely not allowed.

[00:21:32] [SPEAKER_00]: So in Kindleville a group of workers

[00:21:35] [SPEAKER_00]: came into town and they were there to

[00:21:38] [SPEAKER_00]: set up phone lines for the American

[00:21:40] [SPEAKER_00]: Telephone and Telegraph Company.

[00:21:42] [SPEAKER_00]: You may know them now as AT&T.

[00:21:46] [SPEAKER_00]: They were in here.

[00:21:47] [SPEAKER_00]: I was really, I felt dumb because

[00:21:50] [SPEAKER_00]: when I was reading that they spelled

[00:21:52] [SPEAKER_00]: out the whole name each time and I'm

[00:21:53] [SPEAKER_00]: like I wonder if they're ever

[00:21:54] [SPEAKER_00]: related to AT&T and then like I

[00:21:56] [SPEAKER_00]: looked it up and yes that is literally

[00:21:57] [SPEAKER_00]: AT&T.

[00:21:59] [SPEAKER_00]: And there was a Kindleville Hotel

[00:22:02] [SPEAKER_00]: with a totally wild name.

[00:22:06] [SPEAKER_00]: It's called the Gothrop Inn.

[00:22:12] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.

[00:22:12] [SPEAKER_00]: It was at 115 North Main Street

[00:22:15] [SPEAKER_00]: and ironically at 120 North Main

[00:22:19] [SPEAKER_00]: Street there seems to have previously

[00:22:21] [SPEAKER_00]: been a party store.

[00:22:23] [SPEAKER_00]: So that kind of figures into what

[00:22:25] [SPEAKER_00]: we're talking about tonight.

[00:22:27] [SPEAKER_00]: A young man, a 20 year old man named

[00:22:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Alexander John Thompson who is from

[00:22:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Chicago.

[00:22:32] [SPEAKER_00]: He's described as both a lineman and

[00:22:34] [SPEAKER_00]: a truck driver for AT&T.

[00:22:36] [SPEAKER_00]: I'll just call them that because like

[00:22:37] [SPEAKER_00]: you know that's what they are.

[00:22:39] [SPEAKER_00]: He has a bit of a liquor party in

[00:22:42] [SPEAKER_00]: his hotel room.

[00:22:42] [SPEAKER_00]: He's got some booze and he wants to

[00:22:44] [SPEAKER_00]: share it and there are a couple of

[00:22:47] [SPEAKER_00]: different versions of this story.

[00:22:49] [SPEAKER_00]: Kind of when you're looking at

[00:22:51] [SPEAKER_00]: old newspaper accounts it can be

[00:22:52] [SPEAKER_00]: tricky because sometimes things get

[00:22:54] [SPEAKER_00]: really boiled down and they almost

[00:22:56] [SPEAKER_00]: lose some nuance or things get

[00:22:59] [SPEAKER_00]: confused.

[00:23:00] [SPEAKER_00]: And so one thing I always advise

[00:23:02] [SPEAKER_00]: people when we're doing research is

[00:23:04] [SPEAKER_00]: like take everything with a grain of

[00:23:05] [SPEAKER_00]: salt if all the papers are saying

[00:23:07] [SPEAKER_00]: the same thing you could possibly

[00:23:09] [SPEAKER_00]: rely on that but if one has a

[00:23:12] [SPEAKER_00]: totally different story you know

[00:23:13] [SPEAKER_00]: just kind of be open minded that

[00:23:15] [SPEAKER_00]: sometimes there is a game of

[00:23:18] [SPEAKER_00]: telephone going on even back then.

[00:23:21] [SPEAKER_00]: But anyway so the story is that

[00:23:23] [SPEAKER_00]: Hugh Postal approaches Thompson

[00:23:26] [SPEAKER_00]: outside of the inn and he's with two

[00:23:30] [SPEAKER_00]: other guys 19 year old Leroy Smith of

[00:23:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Candleton, Indiana sorry if I'm

[00:23:36] [SPEAKER_00]: saying that wrong and 29 year old

[00:23:39] [SPEAKER_00]: Glenn Parker Davis from Elkhart,

[00:23:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Indiana.

[00:23:42] [SPEAKER_00]: And so what happens is that

[00:23:47] [SPEAKER_00]: basically Postal asks Thompson

[00:23:49] [SPEAKER_00]: hey can I have a little bit of

[00:23:51] [SPEAKER_00]: money for food because he was hungry

[00:23:54] [SPEAKER_00]: and Thompson has something better

[00:23:56] [SPEAKER_00]: he's like why don't you come in you

[00:23:58] [SPEAKER_00]: know to my room with me and drink a

[00:23:59] [SPEAKER_00]: bunch of moonshine and so they do.

[00:24:03] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean I think that's pretty generous

[00:24:04] [SPEAKER_00]: also this so basically the reason

[00:24:08] [SPEAKER_00]: we know all this is because the

[00:24:09] [SPEAKER_00]: enterprising mayor of Kendallville

[00:24:11] [SPEAKER_00]: who is involved in like I guess

[00:24:12] [SPEAKER_00]: every major event that happened here

[00:24:14] [SPEAKER_00]: UC Brouse held a whole preliminary

[00:24:17] [SPEAKER_00]: mini trial this did not go to

[00:24:19] [SPEAKER_00]: trial but he held the mini trial

[00:24:21] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know that's how they described

[00:24:23] [SPEAKER_00]: it in the newspapers I don't really

[00:24:24] [SPEAKER_00]: know what that means do you know

[00:24:26] [SPEAKER_00]: can you tell us like things were a

[00:24:28] [SPEAKER_00]: lot looser in the law back then they

[00:24:29] [SPEAKER_00]: were just kind of doing whatever

[00:24:30] [SPEAKER_01]: especially in smaller towns yeah

[00:24:32] [SPEAKER_00]: they're just kind of riffing but I

[00:24:33] [SPEAKER_00]: mean it got some answers which was

[00:24:35] [SPEAKER_00]: good so Thompson was very much

[00:24:39] [SPEAKER_00]: according to the newspaper according

[00:24:40] [SPEAKER_00]: to the news in central had had a

[00:24:41] [SPEAKER_00]: reputation of being a genial and

[00:24:43] [SPEAKER_00]: likable fellow and Postal did too

[00:24:47] [SPEAKER_00]: but not when he was drinking so

[00:24:49] [SPEAKER_00]: they're all downing a ton of moonshine

[00:24:51] [SPEAKER_00]: I think Thompson's kind of getting

[00:24:53] [SPEAKER_00]: concerned at some point parkhurst

[00:24:56] [SPEAKER_00]: gets concerned and tries to leave

[00:24:58] [SPEAKER_00]: and postal yells at him like you know

[00:25:00] [SPEAKER_00]: don't you dare touch that door

[00:25:02] [SPEAKER_00]: and so everyone's like okay and then

[00:25:04] [SPEAKER_00]: he starts showing them his gun

[00:25:05] [SPEAKER_00]: and so everyone's like this

[00:25:07] [SPEAKER_00]: seems like it's not going too well

[00:25:09] [SPEAKER_00]: and so you know at some point

[00:25:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Thompson rushes at postal

[00:25:15] [SPEAKER_00]: to try to get the gun and

[00:25:17] [SPEAKER_00]: postal shoots them and Thompson

[00:25:19] [SPEAKER_00]: yells out boys he's got me

[00:25:22] [SPEAKER_00]: falls down he was he was um

[00:25:24] [SPEAKER_00]: he was dead pretty quickly unfortunately

[00:25:27] [SPEAKER_00]: he had a kind of admirable or

[00:25:30] [SPEAKER_00]: he was shot in the like right above

[00:25:32] [SPEAKER_00]: the left hip and it went through his

[00:25:33] [SPEAKER_00]: intestines and it was it was bad

[00:25:36] [SPEAKER_00]: and meanwhile parkhurst and Smith

[00:25:38] [SPEAKER_00]: stay around for like an hour

[00:25:40] [SPEAKER_00]: and then they bounce

[00:25:41] [SPEAKER_00]: they jump on a freight train as one

[00:25:44] [SPEAKER_00]: did they weren't paying customers

[00:25:46] [SPEAKER_00]: they like literally slipped in the

[00:25:48] [SPEAKER_00]: you know like they they hoboed it

[00:25:49] [SPEAKER_00]: you know but that's

[00:25:50] [SPEAKER_00]: that's where the word hobo comes

[00:25:51] [SPEAKER_00]: from you kind of

[00:25:52] [SPEAKER_00]: or people you had people literally

[00:25:54] [SPEAKER_00]: hopping on the freight trains

[00:25:55] [SPEAKER_00]: and traveling the country

[00:25:57] [SPEAKER_00]: and uh they were kicked off at

[00:25:59] [SPEAKER_00]: a place called Karuna

[00:26:00] [SPEAKER_00]: and then they were given breakfast

[00:26:02] [SPEAKER_00]: by a man with the amazing name

[00:26:04] [SPEAKER_00]: of Merlin DeLong

[00:26:06] [SPEAKER_00]: who I guess was like a local wizard

[00:26:10] [SPEAKER_00]: and and then they were busted

[00:26:12] [SPEAKER_00]: because you know they were

[00:26:13] [SPEAKER_00]: material witnesses to what happened

[00:26:15] [SPEAKER_00]: so they were arrested

[00:26:16] [SPEAKER_00]: postal was arrested

[00:26:17] [SPEAKER_00]: everyone was bound over

[00:26:18] [SPEAKER_00]: it's August

[00:26:19] [SPEAKER_00]: they were bound over for the October term

[00:26:21] [SPEAKER_00]: of the noble circuit court

[00:26:23] [SPEAKER_00]: and postal said I don't remember

[00:26:25] [SPEAKER_00]: what happened I was so drunk

[00:26:27] [SPEAKER_00]: and he really charms

[00:26:29] [SPEAKER_00]: sheriff Charles Black

[00:26:31] [SPEAKER_00]: who is the sheriff of noble county

[00:26:33] [SPEAKER_00]: at the time

[00:26:33] [SPEAKER_00]: people really got to know him

[00:26:35] [SPEAKER_00]: they learned he was a 36 year old guy

[00:26:37] [SPEAKER_00]: he was a model prisoner

[00:26:39] [SPEAKER_00]: and he was originally from North Carolina

[00:26:41] [SPEAKER_00]: but the thing is

[00:26:42] [SPEAKER_00]: is that this was not the first

[00:26:44] [SPEAKER_00]: time he'd killed someone

[00:26:45] [SPEAKER_00]: in somewhat similar circumstances

[00:26:47] [SPEAKER_00]: this is not a serial killer story

[00:26:49] [SPEAKER_00]: but I mean it kind of is

[00:26:50] [SPEAKER_00]: but I mean like I don't know

[00:26:51] [SPEAKER_00]: how do we define a serial killer

[00:26:53] [SPEAKER_00]: but anyways let's not get in the

[00:26:55] [SPEAKER_00]: we don't need to get in the weeds

[00:26:57] [SPEAKER_00]: and more so than we're already doing

[00:26:59] [SPEAKER_00]: by going through this guy's

[00:27:00] [SPEAKER_00]: criminal record

[00:27:02] [SPEAKER_00]: so he previously lived in Asheville

[00:27:06] [SPEAKER_00]: and he was the son of a policeman

[00:27:08] [SPEAKER_00]: he was the son of Hugh Postal Sr

[00:27:10] [SPEAKER_00]: who died of typhoid fever

[00:27:13] [SPEAKER_00]: and his brother-in-law slash cousin

[00:27:17] [SPEAKER_00]: you heard that right

[00:27:19] [SPEAKER_00]: basically was a man named Edward Edwards

[00:27:22] [SPEAKER_00]: he was the brother of his wife's

[00:27:25] [SPEAKER_00]: of his sister's husband

[00:27:27] [SPEAKER_00]: they were related

[00:27:28] [SPEAKER_00]: they grew up together

[00:27:29] [SPEAKER_00]: his name was Edward Edwards

[00:27:30] [SPEAKER_00]: and his young

[00:27:31] [SPEAKER_00]: and that man's younger brother was named

[00:27:33] [SPEAKER_00]: Fred Edwards

[00:27:36] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm sorry I can't like why did they do this to them

[00:27:38] [SPEAKER_00]: I can't talk

[00:27:40] [SPEAKER_00]: because my name looks like it rhymes

[00:27:41] [SPEAKER_00]: but I think the Edwards brothers were

[00:27:44] [SPEAKER_00]: wronged here by their parents

[00:27:46] [SPEAKER_00]: so Ed Edwards was 23 back in 1907

[00:27:50] [SPEAKER_00]: he was a you know solid dependable

[00:27:52] [SPEAKER_00]: hard-working guy

[00:27:52] [SPEAKER_00]: Hugh was 21

[00:27:54] [SPEAKER_00]: and he was kind of known as a bit of a

[00:27:56] [SPEAKER_00]: like kind of an agro guy

[00:27:57] [SPEAKER_00]: he had a really short temper

[00:27:59] [SPEAKER_00]: he would blow up at people

[00:28:01] [SPEAKER_00]: but they were friends

[00:28:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Edwards even lived at the same boarding house

[00:28:04] [SPEAKER_00]: as Hugh that his mom ran

[00:28:06] [SPEAKER_00]: so you know over time though

[00:28:08] [SPEAKER_00]: Ed began to feel that Hugh

[00:28:10] [SPEAKER_00]: was a bad influence on his younger brother Fred

[00:28:12] [SPEAKER_00]: so they squabbled

[00:28:14] [SPEAKER_00]: meanwhile it's awkward

[00:28:15] [SPEAKER_00]: because they're all working at the same

[00:28:17] [SPEAKER_00]: bicycle repair shop

[00:28:18] [SPEAKER_00]: so you know things are a little bit tense

[00:28:21] [SPEAKER_00]: and so one day

[00:28:24] [SPEAKER_00]: they kind of have words like

[00:28:25] [SPEAKER_00]: I think you're bad influence on my younger brother

[00:28:27] [SPEAKER_00]: uh you know no I'm not okay

[00:28:29] [SPEAKER_00]: well whatever

[00:28:30] [SPEAKER_00]: and then they kind of blows over

[00:28:31] [SPEAKER_00]: so Hugh leaves work

[00:28:35] [SPEAKER_00]: gets permission and leaves work

[00:28:36] [SPEAKER_00]: and then comes back with a guy who

[00:28:38] [SPEAKER_00]: owed Ed Edwards money

[00:28:40] [SPEAKER_00]: and then there's some other fight

[00:28:42] [SPEAKER_00]: oh I I

[00:28:43] [SPEAKER_00]: I owed you a dime no it was really

[00:28:45] [SPEAKER_00]: a quarter blah blah blah

[00:28:46] [SPEAKER_00]: everyone's mad at each other

[00:28:47] [SPEAKER_00]: but it's not like

[00:28:49] [SPEAKER_00]: it's not like a physical fight

[00:28:51] [SPEAKER_00]: it's not like a fight to the death

[00:28:52] [SPEAKER_00]: suddenly Hugh literally just pulls out a gun

[00:28:54] [SPEAKER_00]: and shoots Ed Edwards dead

[00:28:57] [SPEAKER_00]: and everybody's just like

[00:28:59] [SPEAKER_00]: why like you know

[00:29:01] [SPEAKER_00]: he gets arrested

[00:29:02] [SPEAKER_00]: he claims well

[00:29:04] [SPEAKER_00]: I knew Ed was really mad at me

[00:29:07] [SPEAKER_00]: and I kind of felt that maybe

[00:29:08] [SPEAKER_00]: he might shoot me first

[00:29:10] [SPEAKER_00]: because I saw him with a gun the other day

[00:29:13] [SPEAKER_00]: and you know no one finds this

[00:29:15] [SPEAKER_00]: particularly convincing

[00:29:16] [SPEAKER_00]: he's like crying

[00:29:17] [SPEAKER_00]: one thing I think you will appreciate

[00:29:20] [SPEAKER_00]: is that the Asheville weekly citizen

[00:29:22] [SPEAKER_00]: was really ticked off

[00:29:25] [SPEAKER_00]: they were furious

[00:29:26] [SPEAKER_00]: because the magistrate in Asheville

[00:29:28] [SPEAKER_00]: a guy named Walter Gudger

[00:29:30] [SPEAKER_00]: advised postal

[00:29:31] [SPEAKER_00]: not to make a statement to the press

[00:29:33] [SPEAKER_00]: and not to make a statement about what he did

[00:29:35] [SPEAKER_00]: like you don't have to tell them

[00:29:37] [SPEAKER_00]: you don't have to confess

[00:29:38] [SPEAKER_00]: and the newspaper is like

[00:29:39] [SPEAKER_00]: should magistrates even be doing that?

[00:29:41] [SPEAKER_00]: like how dare he

[00:29:43] [SPEAKER_00]: and it's like that's just common lawyer advice now

[00:29:46] [SPEAKER_00]: but but back then anything went

[00:29:48] [SPEAKER_00]: they were really mad about it

[00:29:49] [SPEAKER_00]: they were like

[00:29:50] [SPEAKER_00]: if they keep telling criminals to do this

[00:29:52] [SPEAKER_00]: they'll get away with everything

[00:29:53] [SPEAKER_00]: so there was a lot of drama

[00:29:55] [SPEAKER_00]: anyways so he serves

[00:29:58] [SPEAKER_00]: you know he was sentenced to

[00:30:00] [SPEAKER_00]: I think manslaughter

[00:30:02] [SPEAKER_00]: but he was out within a few years

[00:30:05] [SPEAKER_00]: I think that's what's surprising

[00:30:07] [SPEAKER_00]: when you look at this

[00:30:08] [SPEAKER_00]: he told Sheriff Charles Black up here

[00:30:11] [SPEAKER_00]: you know basically

[00:30:12] [SPEAKER_00]: I have a lot of problems

[00:30:13] [SPEAKER_00]: when I start drinking

[00:30:14] [SPEAKER_00]: I you know he

[00:30:15] [SPEAKER_00]: this is a quote from the newspaper

[00:30:17] [SPEAKER_00]: he said he very seldom drank

[00:30:19] [SPEAKER_00]: but when he did

[00:30:20] [SPEAKER_00]: always went to excess

[00:30:22] [SPEAKER_00]: so he's got that previous killing

[00:30:24] [SPEAKER_00]: then he comes up to Kendallville

[00:30:26] [SPEAKER_00]: and kills somebody for no reason

[00:30:28] [SPEAKER_00]: so in Kendallville

[00:30:29] [SPEAKER_00]: he actually pled guilty

[00:30:30] [SPEAKER_00]: he's like I did this

[00:30:32] [SPEAKER_00]: you know whatever

[00:30:34] [SPEAKER_00]: he sentenced to two to 21 years

[00:30:37] [SPEAKER_00]: pretty long

[00:30:38] [SPEAKER_00]: like you know

[00:30:39] [SPEAKER_00]: you can probably tell where this is going

[00:30:42] [SPEAKER_00]: and he gets sent up to Michigan City

[00:30:44] [SPEAKER_00]: and in 1929

[00:30:46] [SPEAKER_00]: he received parole

[00:30:48] [SPEAKER_00]: again

[00:30:49] [SPEAKER_00]: and so when people

[00:30:50] [SPEAKER_00]: sometimes people kind of get mad

[00:30:52] [SPEAKER_00]: nowadays who's just like

[00:30:53] [SPEAKER_00]: oh everyone's soft on crime

[00:30:54] [SPEAKER_00]: we're letting the criminals do whatever

[00:30:56] [SPEAKER_00]: and it's like okay

[00:30:57] [SPEAKER_00]: your feelings may be totally valid right now

[00:30:59] [SPEAKER_00]: but if you want to really get crazy

[00:31:02] [SPEAKER_00]: look in the 1920s

[00:31:04] [SPEAKER_00]: you could do

[00:31:05] [SPEAKER_00]: if you weren't sent to the electric chair

[00:31:07] [SPEAKER_00]: it feels like you could pretty much

[00:31:09] [SPEAKER_00]: keep killing people all your life

[00:31:11] [SPEAKER_00]: and get locked up for like two minutes here

[00:31:13] [SPEAKER_00]: two minutes in Missouri

[00:31:14] [SPEAKER_00]: two minutes in California

[00:31:16] [SPEAKER_00]: and like they would just pass you along

[00:31:17] [SPEAKER_00]: it really it's kind of remarkable

[00:31:20] [SPEAKER_00]: how little I think it

[00:31:22] [SPEAKER_00]: I think it has to do with the lack of infrastructure

[00:31:25] [SPEAKER_00]: for long-term incarceration

[00:31:27] [SPEAKER_00]: that we now have

[00:31:28] [SPEAKER_00]: and they didn't really have it back then

[00:31:30] [SPEAKER_00]: so I think they were kind of inclined

[00:31:31] [SPEAKER_00]: to be like well

[00:31:33] [SPEAKER_00]: you did your sentence get out

[00:31:35] [SPEAKER_00]: but it's definitely

[00:31:37] [SPEAKER_00]: it's definitely disturbing

[00:31:39] [SPEAKER_00]: and unfortunately well

[00:31:40] [SPEAKER_00]: I guess depending on your perspective

[00:31:42] [SPEAKER_00]: postal did not get to enjoy

[00:31:44] [SPEAKER_00]: his release very long

[00:31:46] [SPEAKER_00]: so he comes up again

[00:31:48] [SPEAKER_00]: I believe in 1930

[00:31:50] [SPEAKER_00]: and he's

[00:31:51] [SPEAKER_00]: he's hoboing it

[00:31:52] [SPEAKER_00]: he's

[00:31:53] [SPEAKER_00]: he's 42 at this point

[00:31:55] [SPEAKER_00]: he's in El Paso, Texas

[00:31:56] [SPEAKER_00]: he and a 19 year old kid named Jack Hackett

[00:31:59] [SPEAKER_00]: of Lansing, Michigan

[00:32:00] [SPEAKER_00]: are jumping on a freight train

[00:32:03] [SPEAKER_00]: postal misses

[00:32:04] [SPEAKER_00]: he goes under the train

[00:32:06] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah it's bad

[00:32:08] [SPEAKER_00]: he ends up losing both legs

[00:32:10] [SPEAKER_00]: one of his arms

[00:32:12] [SPEAKER_00]: and he dies within 15 hours of the operation

[00:32:15] [SPEAKER_00]: so even though he did sort of get another chance

[00:32:19] [SPEAKER_00]: he didn't really have much time to

[00:32:21] [SPEAKER_00]: either redeem himself

[00:32:23] [SPEAKER_00]: or kill somebody else

[00:32:25] [SPEAKER_00]: so it's kind of

[00:32:26] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah that's

[00:32:27] [SPEAKER_00]: that's the saga of Hugh Postal

[00:32:29] [SPEAKER_00]: so sorry about that

[00:32:30] [SPEAKER_01]: that was kind of a weird story

[00:32:32] [SPEAKER_01]: so low winding and twisty roads

[00:32:34] [SPEAKER_01]: should we do questions or do another case

[00:32:36] [SPEAKER_00]: let's do one more case

[00:32:37] [SPEAKER_00]: and then we can open it up to everyone's questions

[00:32:40] [SPEAKER_00]: namely like what are you guys doing

[00:32:44] [SPEAKER_00]: this one I wanted to

[00:32:46] [SPEAKER_00]: read because this one's really weird

[00:32:47] [SPEAKER_00]: if you thought that one was weird

[00:32:48] [SPEAKER_00]: this one's even weirder

[00:32:50] [SPEAKER_00]: and it's also like

[00:32:51] [SPEAKER_00]: kind of

[00:32:52] [SPEAKER_00]: sexy in a weird way

[00:32:53] [SPEAKER_00]: but not not really

[00:32:54] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't mean that

[00:32:55] [SPEAKER_00]: like I

[00:32:56] [SPEAKER_00]: I said that I said that in a bad way

[00:32:58] [SPEAKER_00]: no questions

[00:32:59] [SPEAKER_00]: it's not sexy

[00:33:00] [SPEAKER_00]: it's just more of like

[00:33:01] [SPEAKER_00]: what was going on in the Fort Wayne newspapers

[00:33:04] [SPEAKER_00]: anyway we'll get it

[00:33:06] [SPEAKER_00]: so I called this one Salome of the Rails

[00:33:09] [SPEAKER_00]: if you know you're a New Testament

[00:33:11] [SPEAKER_00]: you might kind of guess

[00:33:13] [SPEAKER_00]: where some of this is going with Salome

[00:33:15] [SPEAKER_00]: but our sources are Waterloo Press

[00:33:18] [SPEAKER_00]: The Star Press

[00:33:19] [SPEAKER_00]: and the Fort Wayne Journal Gazette

[00:33:21] [SPEAKER_00]: that's one's a doozy

[00:33:23] [SPEAKER_00]: and the Garrett Clipper

[00:33:25] [SPEAKER_00]: is a really hot night

[00:33:29] [SPEAKER_00]: in 1910

[00:33:31] [SPEAKER_00]: and there was work being done

[00:33:33] [SPEAKER_00]: on the Lakeshore

[00:33:35] [SPEAKER_00]: and Michigan Southern Railway line

[00:33:36] [SPEAKER_00]: that goes through Kendallville

[00:33:38] [SPEAKER_00]: and this can

[00:33:40] [SPEAKER_00]: this whole railway stretches from Buffalo New York

[00:33:43] [SPEAKER_00]: all the way into Illinois

[00:33:44] [SPEAKER_00]: it was a it was a big deal

[00:33:45] [SPEAKER_00]: went across northern Indiana

[00:33:48] [SPEAKER_00]: and this was pretty tough work

[00:33:49] [SPEAKER_00]: and the men who were working on it

[00:33:51] [SPEAKER_00]: in 1910 in Kendallville

[00:33:53] [SPEAKER_00]: were mostly Italians

[00:33:55] [SPEAKER_00]: they were Italian immigrants

[00:33:57] [SPEAKER_00]: and there seems to have been

[00:33:59] [SPEAKER_00]: maybe some tension with the local community

[00:34:01] [SPEAKER_00]: but you know frankly

[00:34:03] [SPEAKER_00]: they're referred to in the newspapers

[00:34:05] [SPEAKER_00]: in somewhat kind of dehumanizing ways

[00:34:08] [SPEAKER_00]: like instead of having names

[00:34:11] [SPEAKER_00]: they would sometimes just be referred to as numbers

[00:34:13] [SPEAKER_00]: they'd have payroll numbers

[00:34:14] [SPEAKER_00]: so it'd be like number six, number 10, number 11

[00:34:18] [SPEAKER_00]: and that was just kind of the way it was

[00:34:21] [SPEAKER_00]: and in addition to that

[00:34:22] [SPEAKER_00]: there was a 34 year old local man

[00:34:24] [SPEAKER_00]: named Al Lear

[00:34:26] [SPEAKER_00]: he turns out his real name was something else

[00:34:29] [SPEAKER_00]: but everyone called him that

[00:34:30] [SPEAKER_00]: so he works he he

[00:34:33] [SPEAKER_00]: honestly the newspapers were kind of salty

[00:34:34] [SPEAKER_00]: about him at points

[00:34:35] [SPEAKER_00]: they were like he doesn't have that good

[00:34:36] [SPEAKER_00]: of a reputation around these parts

[00:34:38] [SPEAKER_00]: and he's separated from his wife

[00:34:40] [SPEAKER_00]: and then other ones were like

[00:34:41] [SPEAKER_00]: no he's a widower

[00:34:43] [SPEAKER_00]: so I don't I don't know

[00:34:44] [SPEAKER_00]: nobody could get their story straight

[00:34:46] [SPEAKER_00]: but he lived near the fairgrounds

[00:34:49] [SPEAKER_00]: east of East Street

[00:34:50] [SPEAKER_00]: so he was the head of a section gang

[00:34:53] [SPEAKER_00]: so he oversaw some of these workers

[00:34:57] [SPEAKER_00]: and yeah real name Alvin Collins apparently

[00:35:00] [SPEAKER_00]: so July 13th 1910

[00:35:04] [SPEAKER_00]: the things in the in the in the camp

[00:35:07] [SPEAKER_00]: for the workers are a bit weird

[00:35:09] [SPEAKER_00]: they're all living in shacks

[00:35:10] [SPEAKER_00]: they just got paid

[00:35:12] [SPEAKER_00]: I think the day before

[00:35:14] [SPEAKER_00]: but five of them got fired for incompetence

[00:35:17] [SPEAKER_00]: so people are people are not super happy

[00:35:20] [SPEAKER_00]: then this couple comes into town

[00:35:23] [SPEAKER_00]: this is where things get off the rails

[00:35:25] [SPEAKER_00]: no pun intended I apologize

[00:35:26] [SPEAKER_00]: I did not mean to do that

[00:35:28] [SPEAKER_00]: so this guy named James

[00:35:30] [SPEAKER_00]: he says his name is James Dolan

[00:35:32] [SPEAKER_00]: who knows

[00:35:33] [SPEAKER_00]: he's from Syracuse New York

[00:35:35] [SPEAKER_00]: he's he says he's married to this woman

[00:35:37] [SPEAKER_00]: he's with named Janet

[00:35:39] [SPEAKER_00]: they roll into Kendallville

[00:35:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Dolan James Dolan goes to spend some time

[00:35:44] [SPEAKER_00]: with Lear for some reason

[00:35:46] [SPEAKER_00]: and a man named AJ Hall

[00:35:47] [SPEAKER_00]: and they're kind of going around the town

[00:35:50] [SPEAKER_00]: the newspapers described it as a night of debauchery

[00:35:53] [SPEAKER_00]: it's not really clear what exactly they were doing

[00:35:57] [SPEAKER_00]: they maybe they were just doing like a bar crawl

[00:35:59] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean I don't know

[00:36:00] [SPEAKER_00]: like maybe they were just like drinking

[00:36:01] [SPEAKER_00]: and walking around

[00:36:02] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know

[00:36:03] [SPEAKER_00]: it just things were just odd

[00:36:04] [SPEAKER_00]: but meanwhile things got more salacious

[00:36:06] [SPEAKER_00]: when Janet went to the camp

[00:36:08] [SPEAKER_00]: so Janet like you can't even make this stuff up

[00:36:12] [SPEAKER_00]: she she it says she went into the camp

[00:36:15] [SPEAKER_00]: around 11 o'clock

[00:36:16] [SPEAKER_00]: it didn't say whether it was in the morning or like night

[00:36:19] [SPEAKER_00]: it said 11 o'clock in the afternoon

[00:36:20] [SPEAKER_00]: so I don't know what that means

[00:36:23] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know what that means

[00:36:25] [SPEAKER_00]: and also 11 a.m for what she was doing

[00:36:27] [SPEAKER_00]: is a little bit kind of early in the day

[00:36:30] [SPEAKER_00]: so I don't know

[00:36:30] [SPEAKER_00]: this is I'm not gonna

[00:36:32] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not even gonna say anything

[00:36:33] [SPEAKER_00]: this is what the Bortwain journal

[00:36:35] [SPEAKER_00]: Gazette said happened next

[00:36:36] [SPEAKER_00]: quote

[00:36:37] [SPEAKER_00]: it is stated Mrs. Dolan

[00:36:39] [SPEAKER_00]: gave the salamé dance in the nude

[00:36:42] [SPEAKER_00]: and otherwise entertained the men from sunny Italy

[00:36:46] [SPEAKER_00]: so the salamé dance

[00:36:47] [SPEAKER_00]: the salamé dance is known as the dance of the seven veils

[00:36:51] [SPEAKER_00]: which is what in the gospels of Matthew and Mark

[00:36:55] [SPEAKER_00]: is what Herod's unnamed

[00:36:59] [SPEAKER_00]: I believe it is

[00:37:00] [SPEAKER_00]: niece perhaps

[00:37:02] [SPEAKER_00]: gives this sexy dance for everybody

[00:37:04] [SPEAKER_00]: and he's like I love this

[00:37:06] [SPEAKER_00]: this is great

[00:37:07] [SPEAKER_00]: what do you want in return

[00:37:09] [SPEAKER_00]: and she's like I don't know

[00:37:10] [SPEAKER_00]: and then she asks her mom

[00:37:11] [SPEAKER_00]: what should I ask for

[00:37:12] [SPEAKER_00]: and he's

[00:37:13] [SPEAKER_00]: her mom's like

[00:37:14] [SPEAKER_00]: the head of John the Baptist

[00:37:15] [SPEAKER_00]: and salamé's like okay

[00:37:17] [SPEAKER_00]: and then asked for that

[00:37:18] [SPEAKER_00]: and Herod's like I don't want to do that

[00:37:20] [SPEAKER_00]: and she's like

[00:37:22] [SPEAKER_00]: that's the price of the dance of the seven veils

[00:37:24] [SPEAKER_00]: so that's

[00:37:25] [SPEAKER_00]: so this was kind of like a weird sex thing going on I guess

[00:37:29] [SPEAKER_00]: and you're probably wondering

[00:37:30] [SPEAKER_00]: why are we talking about this

[00:37:32] [SPEAKER_00]: well there is a murder

[00:37:32] [SPEAKER_00]: so

[00:37:34] [SPEAKER_00]: she

[00:37:37] [SPEAKER_00]: it's probably not who you're expecting

[00:37:40] [SPEAKER_00]: so Janet like gets a bunch of money

[00:37:42] [SPEAKER_00]: whether she's being paid

[00:37:44] [SPEAKER_00]: by the workers

[00:37:45] [SPEAKER_00]: or whether she just

[00:37:47] [SPEAKER_00]: rolls out with it

[00:37:48] [SPEAKER_00]: bounces with their cash

[00:37:50] [SPEAKER_00]: it's not clear

[00:37:52] [SPEAKER_00]: but she leaves with a bunch of money

[00:37:54] [SPEAKER_00]: and some of the workers are pretty upset

[00:37:56] [SPEAKER_00]: and literally the newspaper lists them as

[00:37:59] [SPEAKER_00]: number four

[00:38:00] [SPEAKER_00]: number 16

[00:38:01] [SPEAKER_00]: number 44

[00:38:02] [SPEAKER_00]: their names were Giuseppe Ribona

[00:38:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Giuseppe Elotti

[00:38:06] [SPEAKER_00]: and this last one

[00:38:08] [SPEAKER_00]: it's either Francisco Sponato

[00:38:10] [SPEAKER_00]: or Antonio Almapipia

[00:38:13] [SPEAKER_00]: those are not similar names

[00:38:15] [SPEAKER_00]: but they're used interchangeably in these things

[00:38:17] [SPEAKER_00]: for some reason

[00:38:18] [SPEAKER_00]: so they go out to get their money back

[00:38:21] [SPEAKER_00]: and they approach the group of Lear Hall

[00:38:24] [SPEAKER_00]: and the Dolans who are now all reunited

[00:38:27] [SPEAKER_00]: and this is about half past 11 at night

[00:38:30] [SPEAKER_00]: along the south shore

[00:38:32] [SPEAKER_00]: the south side of the lakeshore tracks

[00:38:34] [SPEAKER_00]: and there's some kind of altercation

[00:38:36] [SPEAKER_00]: the workers are saying give us our money

[00:38:39] [SPEAKER_00]: Lear tells them

[00:38:40] [SPEAKER_00]: go away

[00:38:41] [SPEAKER_00]: they don't

[00:38:42] [SPEAKER_00]: then Lear pulls out a gun inserts

[00:38:44] [SPEAKER_00]: and shoots at them

[00:38:45] [SPEAKER_00]: and so Sponato

[00:38:47] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to call him Sponato

[00:38:49] [SPEAKER_00]: obviously there are two names

[00:38:50] [SPEAKER_00]: but that one's easier to say

[00:38:51] [SPEAKER_00]: he fires back three times

[00:38:54] [SPEAKER_00]: one bullet

[00:38:56] [SPEAKER_00]: lodges itself in James Dolan's pocketbook

[00:38:59] [SPEAKER_00]: or alternatively in some versions

[00:39:01] [SPEAKER_00]: a bag of coins that he's carrying

[00:39:04] [SPEAKER_00]: and everybody just splits

[00:39:06] [SPEAKER_00]: the workers flee the scene

[00:39:09] [SPEAKER_00]: the Dolans flee the scene

[00:39:10] [SPEAKER_00]: Hall stays around

[00:39:12] [SPEAKER_00]: he's frozen in shock

[00:39:13] [SPEAKER_00]: and then he looks down

[00:39:14] [SPEAKER_00]: and Lear has been shot twice

[00:39:16] [SPEAKER_00]: so he calls in Dr. Gilbert

[00:39:18] [SPEAKER_00]: who is like the railway doctor

[00:39:20] [SPEAKER_00]: they drag him into a restaurant

[00:39:22] [SPEAKER_00]: near the depot

[00:39:23] [SPEAKER_00]: but he dies quickly

[00:39:24] [SPEAKER_00]: and then a chase starts

[00:39:27] [SPEAKER_00]: so deputy Joseph Stout of Noble County

[00:39:31] [SPEAKER_00]: he's on the scene

[00:39:32] [SPEAKER_00]: he finds the revolver

[00:39:34] [SPEAKER_00]: with one cartridge discharged

[00:39:36] [SPEAKER_00]: that Lear had fired

[00:39:38] [SPEAKER_00]: he finds another gun

[00:39:40] [SPEAKER_00]: with three shots missing

[00:39:42] [SPEAKER_00]: actually that wasn't found by him

[00:39:44] [SPEAKER_00]: it was by a GRNI breakman

[00:39:45] [SPEAKER_00]: along what's called the McCray tracks

[00:39:48] [SPEAKER_00]: and Noble County Sheriff P.J. Stanley

[00:39:51] [SPEAKER_00]: comes to Kendallville

[00:39:52] [SPEAKER_00]: first he rushes down

[00:39:54] [SPEAKER_00]: to Fort Wayne

[00:39:55] [SPEAKER_00]: to get prosecutor Carver

[00:39:56] [SPEAKER_00]: like hey we need an arrest warrant

[00:39:58] [SPEAKER_00]: so he's running around

[00:40:01] [SPEAKER_00]: and then he gets a phone tip

[00:40:02] [SPEAKER_00]: actually about three men

[00:40:04] [SPEAKER_00]: matching the workers descriptions

[00:40:06] [SPEAKER_00]: in Brimfield

[00:40:07] [SPEAKER_00]: so he and Kendallville Marshall

[00:40:10] [SPEAKER_00]: John Boggs get into an automobile

[00:40:12] [SPEAKER_00]: driven by I kid you not

[00:40:15] [SPEAKER_00]: a man named John Cain

[00:40:16] [SPEAKER_00]: yes it's spelled correctly

[00:40:18] [SPEAKER_00]: like me

[00:40:19] [SPEAKER_00]: C-A-I-N

[00:40:20] [SPEAKER_00]: the Keynes are the heroes

[00:40:22] [SPEAKER_00]: of the story obviously

[00:40:23] [SPEAKER_00]: and um

[00:40:24] [SPEAKER_00]: you know they they speed off

[00:40:26] [SPEAKER_00]: to Brimfield

[00:40:27] [SPEAKER_00]: at Brimfield

[00:40:29] [SPEAKER_00]: in some versions

[00:40:30] [SPEAKER_00]: they get on one of those

[00:40:31] [SPEAKER_00]: railway hand cars

[00:40:32] [SPEAKER_00]: where people are doing this

[00:40:34] [SPEAKER_00]: this is a thrilling chase for the time

[00:40:37] [SPEAKER_00]: this is like

[00:40:38] [SPEAKER_00]: fast and furious of their day

[00:40:39] [SPEAKER_00]: they're on the railways

[00:40:41] [SPEAKER_00]: they're doing the handbrake

[00:40:42] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean maybe they weren't

[00:40:43] [SPEAKER_00]: but I really hope they were

[00:40:45] [SPEAKER_00]: that's how I imagine it

[00:40:46] [SPEAKER_00]: and um

[00:40:48] [SPEAKER_00]: and they get the workers

[00:40:49] [SPEAKER_00]: they grab them

[00:40:50] [SPEAKER_00]: and meanwhile Marshall Boggs

[00:40:53] [SPEAKER_00]: somehow also splits off

[00:40:54] [SPEAKER_00]: with Deputy Stout and George Gaby

[00:40:56] [SPEAKER_00]: and they grab the Dolans

[00:40:58] [SPEAKER_00]: because their story

[00:40:59] [SPEAKER_00]: doesn't really make any sense either

[00:41:00] [SPEAKER_00]: and they claim

[00:41:01] [SPEAKER_00]: we didn't even know Lear was dead

[00:41:03] [SPEAKER_00]: we just wanted to get out of there

[00:41:04] [SPEAKER_00]: okay

[00:41:05] [SPEAKER_00]: and so

[00:41:07] [SPEAKER_00]: this starts to get really dangerous

[00:41:11] [SPEAKER_00]: because back then

[00:41:12] [SPEAKER_00]: unfortunately

[00:41:13] [SPEAKER_00]: you would have vigilante justice

[00:41:15] [SPEAKER_00]: you would have lynchings take place

[00:41:18] [SPEAKER_00]: and actually there was a famous case

[00:41:20] [SPEAKER_00]: where Italian immigrants

[00:41:22] [SPEAKER_00]: and Italian Americans

[00:41:23] [SPEAKER_00]: were targeted

[00:41:24] [SPEAKER_00]: in New Orleans in 19

[00:41:25] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm sorry in 1891

[00:41:28] [SPEAKER_00]: after the New Orleans

[00:41:30] [SPEAKER_00]: police chief

[00:41:30] [SPEAKER_00]: a man named

[00:41:31] [SPEAKER_00]: weirdly enough if you follow our

[00:41:33] [SPEAKER_00]: Delphi coverage

[00:41:33] [SPEAKER_00]: David Hennessey

[00:41:34] [SPEAKER_00]: he was killed

[00:41:35] [SPEAKER_00]: and then unfortunately

[00:41:37] [SPEAKER_00]: 11 Italian Americans

[00:41:38] [SPEAKER_00]: were murdered by an angry mob

[00:41:40] [SPEAKER_00]: who came

[00:41:41] [SPEAKER_00]: took them from the jail

[00:41:43] [SPEAKER_00]: and lynched them

[00:41:44] [SPEAKER_00]: so there were a lot of concerns

[00:41:45] [SPEAKER_00]: in this situation

[00:41:47] [SPEAKER_00]: so actually the railway company

[00:41:48] [SPEAKER_00]: brought all of the

[00:41:50] [SPEAKER_00]: Italian workers

[00:41:52] [SPEAKER_00]: out of town

[00:41:52] [SPEAKER_00]: they sent them back up to Chicago

[00:41:54] [SPEAKER_00]: there were like 49 or 59 of them

[00:41:56] [SPEAKER_00]: and they

[00:41:56] [SPEAKER_00]: they took them out of there

[00:41:58] [SPEAKER_00]: and to the credit

[00:41:59] [SPEAKER_00]: of the Kendallville

[00:42:01] [SPEAKER_00]: you know the deputies

[00:42:02] [SPEAKER_00]: the Marshall

[00:42:03] [SPEAKER_00]: the Noble County authorities

[00:42:05] [SPEAKER_00]: they took the threat

[00:42:07] [SPEAKER_00]: really seriously

[00:42:08] [SPEAKER_00]: and it sounds like there was

[00:42:10] [SPEAKER_00]: a crowd starting to gather

[00:42:11] [SPEAKER_00]: who might have wanted to take

[00:42:13] [SPEAKER_00]: revenge on the workers

[00:42:16] [SPEAKER_00]: but they kind of

[00:42:17] [SPEAKER_00]: got them out of there really quickly

[00:42:19] [SPEAKER_00]: they put them under guard

[00:42:20] [SPEAKER_00]: they rushed them

[00:42:22] [SPEAKER_00]: to the Noble County jail

[00:42:23] [SPEAKER_00]: where they could be more secure

[00:42:24] [SPEAKER_00]: and so they ensured

[00:42:26] [SPEAKER_00]: nobody was hurt in the process

[00:42:29] [SPEAKER_00]: so they really took that

[00:42:30] [SPEAKER_00]: seriously and acted really professionally

[00:42:33] [SPEAKER_00]: and so

[00:42:35] [SPEAKER_00]: at that point the coroner took over

[00:42:36] [SPEAKER_00]: he looked

[00:42:38] [SPEAKER_00]: at Lear and found that he died

[00:42:39] [SPEAKER_00]: of a gunshot wound to the chest

[00:42:40] [SPEAKER_00]: an abdomen

[00:42:42] [SPEAKER_00]: and

[00:42:43] [SPEAKER_00]: the workers were a focus

[00:42:45] [SPEAKER_00]: but a lot of the newspapers

[00:42:46] [SPEAKER_00]: indicated pretty early on

[00:42:48] [SPEAKER_00]: that like it sounds like this was

[00:42:49] [SPEAKER_00]: a self-defense case

[00:42:50] [SPEAKER_00]: because Lear shot at them

[00:42:52] [SPEAKER_00]: and the Dolan story also doesn't add up

[00:42:55] [SPEAKER_00]: so two

[00:42:55] [SPEAKER_00]: two lawyers got involved

[00:42:57] [SPEAKER_00]: the newspaper

[00:42:59] [SPEAKER_00]: specifies that one of them is Italian

[00:43:00] [SPEAKER_00]: his name is Eugene Milato

[00:43:02] [SPEAKER_00]: and they're like

[00:43:03] [SPEAKER_00]: oh he's an Italian attorney

[00:43:04] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know why they felt the need

[00:43:05] [SPEAKER_00]: to say that specifically

[00:43:06] [SPEAKER_00]: and then the other one

[00:43:07] [SPEAKER_00]: they're like an American attorney

[00:43:09] [SPEAKER_00]: you know what his name is

[00:43:10] [SPEAKER_00]: what Robert E. Lee

[00:43:14] [SPEAKER_00]: so a confederate attorney

[00:43:16] [SPEAKER_00]: no

[00:43:17] [SPEAKER_00]: he's from Chicago

[00:43:19] [SPEAKER_00]: and they get involved

[00:43:20] [SPEAKER_00]: on the half of the arrested

[00:43:22] [SPEAKER_00]: the Fort Wayne Journal

[00:43:23] [SPEAKER_00]: because that

[00:43:24] [SPEAKER_00]: a pine that Lear had been shot down

[00:43:26] [SPEAKER_00]: after a night of debauch

[00:43:28] [SPEAKER_00]: which is a great phrase

[00:43:29] [SPEAKER_00]: and then the Waterloo press said

[00:43:32] [SPEAKER_00]: it is a most lamentable affair

[00:43:34] [SPEAKER_00]: and will put the county

[00:43:35] [SPEAKER_00]: to an enormous expense

[00:43:36] [SPEAKER_00]: Lear's standing in the community

[00:43:38] [SPEAKER_00]: was not first class

[00:43:40] [SPEAKER_00]: and there seems to be some mystery

[00:43:41] [SPEAKER_00]: connected with the affair

[00:43:42] [SPEAKER_00]: which may never be solved

[00:43:44] [SPEAKER_00]: so everyone was kind of down about it

[00:43:46] [SPEAKER_00]: and it ended up being dismissed

[00:43:49] [SPEAKER_00]: so October 20th, 1910

[00:43:51] [SPEAKER_00]: Sponato, Urbano

[00:43:53] [SPEAKER_00]: and

[00:43:54] [SPEAKER_00]: a lot of you

[00:43:54] [SPEAKER_00]: and the Dolans were all released

[00:43:56] [SPEAKER_00]: from county jail

[00:43:58] [SPEAKER_00]: and they were allowed to leave

[00:44:00] [SPEAKER_00]: and it turns out that a grand jury

[00:44:03] [SPEAKER_00]: had been convened

[00:44:04] [SPEAKER_00]: they looked very seriously at charging people

[00:44:06] [SPEAKER_00]: but in the end

[00:44:08] [SPEAKER_00]: the grand jury felt that

[00:44:09] [SPEAKER_00]: because Lear had fired first

[00:44:12] [SPEAKER_00]: the Sponato had acted

[00:44:14] [SPEAKER_00]: in self-defense

[00:44:15] [SPEAKER_00]: and should not be prosecuted

[00:44:17] [SPEAKER_00]: so even though this was an

[00:44:19] [SPEAKER_00]: unpopular opinion

[00:44:20] [SPEAKER_00]: in town among some

[00:44:22] [SPEAKER_00]: it seems like everything

[00:44:23] [SPEAKER_00]: in the system in Kendoville

[00:44:25] [SPEAKER_00]: worked pretty appropriately

[00:44:26] [SPEAKER_00]: you know even

[00:44:27] [SPEAKER_00]: even back in 1910

[00:44:28] [SPEAKER_00]: so that is actually

[00:44:29] [SPEAKER_00]: kind of nice to see

[00:44:31] [SPEAKER_00]: even though obviously it's tragic

[00:44:32] [SPEAKER_00]: when anyone is killed

[00:44:34] [SPEAKER_00]: so now do you kind of understand

[00:44:35] [SPEAKER_00]: what I mean where there's kind of

[00:44:36] [SPEAKER_00]: a weird sexy thing

[00:44:37] [SPEAKER_00]: but it's not really sexy

[00:44:38] [SPEAKER_00]: it's just weird anyways

[00:44:39] [SPEAKER_00]: we don't need to get into that again

[00:44:40] [SPEAKER_00]: love you

[00:44:41] [SPEAKER_00]: but we'll just walk past that

[00:44:43] [SPEAKER_00]: so yeah

[00:44:44] [SPEAKER_00]: those are our kind of Kendoville

[00:44:46] [SPEAKER_00]: cases that we compiled

[00:44:47] [SPEAKER_00]: I didn't mean to do

[00:44:48] [SPEAKER_00]: that much alliteration

[00:44:49] [SPEAKER_00]: in that sentence

[00:44:50] [SPEAKER_00]: but it's what happened

[00:44:53] [SPEAKER_00]: and yeah

[00:44:54] [SPEAKER_00]: we'd love to open it up

[00:44:56] [SPEAKER_00]: to questions or comments

[00:44:58] [SPEAKER_00]: or stories

[00:44:59] [SPEAKER_00]: about anything

[00:45:00] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean we should probably keep it

[00:45:02] [SPEAKER_00]: a little bit to crime

[00:45:03] [SPEAKER_00]: but it can be

[00:45:04] [SPEAKER_01]: well yeah I mean

[00:45:05] [SPEAKER_01]: but other cases

[00:45:06] [SPEAKER_01]: we've covered

[00:45:06] [SPEAKER_01]: or whatever

[00:45:07] [SPEAKER_00]: someone just comes up

[00:45:08] [SPEAKER_00]: and does a stand-up routine

[00:45:10] [SPEAKER_01]: I'd enjoy that

[00:45:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Kevin's like

[00:45:12] [SPEAKER_00]: take the wheel

[00:45:14] [SPEAKER_00]: and we'll probably

[00:45:15] [SPEAKER_00]: awkwardly repeat

[00:45:16] [SPEAKER_00]: your questions

[00:45:17] [SPEAKER_00]: just so we know the

[00:45:17] [SPEAKER_00]: mic picked up it

[00:45:18] [SPEAKER_00]: an attendee named Mallory

[00:45:20] [SPEAKER_00]: asked about our backgrounds

[00:45:22] [SPEAKER_00]: my background in journalism

[00:45:24] [SPEAKER_00]: and Kevin's in law

[00:45:25] [SPEAKER_00]: and our favorite parts

[00:45:26] [SPEAKER_00]: of each profession

[00:45:28] [SPEAKER_00]: I love this question

[00:45:29] [SPEAKER_00]: and Mallory

[00:45:30] [SPEAKER_00]: we probably should have mentioned

[00:45:31] [SPEAKER_00]: that up top

[00:45:32] [SPEAKER_00]: who the heck we are

[00:45:33] [SPEAKER_00]: I know Andy did a wonderful

[00:45:34] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah we

[00:45:36] [SPEAKER_00]: I should have been like

[00:45:36] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm a journalist

[00:45:37] [SPEAKER_00]: and Kevin's an attorney

[00:45:39] [SPEAKER_01]: well for me

[00:45:40] [SPEAKER_01]: the best thing about the law

[00:45:42] [SPEAKER_01]: is I have a very short

[00:45:43] [SPEAKER_01]: attention span

[00:45:43] [SPEAKER_01]: I'll get very interested

[00:45:45] [SPEAKER_01]: in something

[00:45:46] [SPEAKER_01]: and then I'll say

[00:45:47] [SPEAKER_01]: I want to be

[00:45:47] [SPEAKER_01]: I will move on

[00:45:48] [SPEAKER_01]: someone like shakes

[00:45:49] [SPEAKER_01]: shiny keys

[00:45:50] [SPEAKER_01]: and I move on to that

[00:45:51] [SPEAKER_01]: and with the law

[00:45:53] [SPEAKER_01]: every case

[00:45:54] [SPEAKER_01]: is very different

[00:45:55] [SPEAKER_01]: and it makes you have to learn

[00:45:57] [SPEAKER_01]: completely different fact pattern

[00:45:59] [SPEAKER_01]: or you might have to do a case

[00:46:01] [SPEAKER_01]: involving a professor

[00:46:02] [SPEAKER_01]: and it might

[00:46:04] [SPEAKER_01]: in order to do that case

[00:46:05] [SPEAKER_01]: he might have to learn

[00:46:05] [SPEAKER_01]: a little bit about his specialty

[00:46:07] [SPEAKER_01]: or about the academic culture

[00:46:09] [SPEAKER_01]: and the next case

[00:46:10] [SPEAKER_01]: might be a case

[00:46:11] [SPEAKER_01]: about a railroad worker

[00:46:13] [SPEAKER_01]: and you have to learn

[00:46:14] [SPEAKER_01]: about that

[00:46:14] [SPEAKER_01]: in that background

[00:46:16] [SPEAKER_01]: so the law

[00:46:17] [SPEAKER_01]: I see it is

[00:46:18] [SPEAKER_01]: is a mechanism

[00:46:18] [SPEAKER_01]: to learn

[00:46:19] [SPEAKER_01]: about the world

[00:46:20] [SPEAKER_01]: and about a wide variety

[00:46:22] [SPEAKER_01]: of different people

[00:46:24] [SPEAKER_00]: see

[00:46:24] [SPEAKER_00]: my mind is going to be

[00:46:26] [SPEAKER_00]: suspiciously similar to that

[00:46:27] [SPEAKER_00]: unfortunately

[00:46:28] [SPEAKER_00]: so thanks a lot

[00:46:29] [SPEAKER_00]: in journalism

[00:46:32] [SPEAKER_00]: you basically got to be a student

[00:46:34] [SPEAKER_00]: of many different disciplines

[00:46:35] [SPEAKER_00]: and even if you select a beat

[00:46:38] [SPEAKER_00]: at this point

[00:46:39] [SPEAKER_00]: we kind of work on the crime beat

[00:46:41] [SPEAKER_00]: a lot

[00:46:41] [SPEAKER_00]: you still get to learn about things

[00:46:42] [SPEAKER_00]: that you would not know

[00:46:43] [SPEAKER_00]: about otherwise

[00:46:45] [SPEAKER_00]: and I think as a kid

[00:46:47] [SPEAKER_00]: I kind of always thought

[00:46:48] [SPEAKER_00]: like being smart means

[00:46:50] [SPEAKER_00]: you know everything

[00:46:51] [SPEAKER_00]: and like I need

[00:46:52] [SPEAKER_00]: like I can't ask a question

[00:46:53] [SPEAKER_00]: because then I'll just look stupid

[00:46:55] [SPEAKER_00]: and what doing

[00:46:56] [SPEAKER_00]: you know journalism allows you

[00:46:58] [SPEAKER_00]: to kind of throw that away

[00:47:00] [SPEAKER_00]: and just be really curious

[00:47:01] [SPEAKER_00]: and very interested

[00:47:03] [SPEAKER_00]: in topics

[00:47:04] [SPEAKER_00]: and and you know

[00:47:05] [SPEAKER_00]: different stories

[00:47:06] [SPEAKER_00]: but also people

[00:47:08] [SPEAKER_00]: and I really enjoy that

[00:47:09] [SPEAKER_00]: and we've

[00:47:09] [SPEAKER_00]: we you were saying this

[00:47:11] [SPEAKER_00]: when we're driving up

[00:47:11] [SPEAKER_00]: we've really gotten to talk

[00:47:13] [SPEAKER_00]: to so many interesting people

[00:47:14] [SPEAKER_00]: you know people on the show

[00:47:16] [SPEAKER_00]: people with interesting experiences

[00:47:19] [SPEAKER_00]: and listeners

[00:47:20] [SPEAKER_00]: who kind of share

[00:47:21] [SPEAKER_00]: their own personal stories

[00:47:21] [SPEAKER_00]: that might not ever go on the show

[00:47:23] [SPEAKER_00]: but it's a real gift

[00:47:24] [SPEAKER_00]: to be able to

[00:47:26] [SPEAKER_00]: kind of just

[00:47:27] [SPEAKER_00]: go into other people's

[00:47:30] [SPEAKER_00]: kind of stories

[00:47:30] [SPEAKER_00]: and be able to

[00:47:33] [SPEAKER_00]: sort of work there

[00:47:33] [SPEAKER_00]: and better understand things

[00:47:35] [SPEAKER_00]: and so yeah

[00:47:35] [SPEAKER_00]: great question Mallory

[00:47:36] [SPEAKER_00]: thank you so much

[00:47:39] [SPEAKER_00]: you have a whole list

[00:47:42] [SPEAKER_00]: so Mallory made a whole list

[00:47:44] [SPEAKER_00]: because she loves us

[00:47:45] [SPEAKER_00]: and didn't want there to be

[00:47:46] [SPEAKER_00]: an awkward silence

[00:47:46] [SPEAKER_00]: if no one asked any questions

[00:47:47] [SPEAKER_00]: so you guys

[00:47:50] [SPEAKER_00]: Mallory followed up

[00:47:51] [SPEAKER_00]: with her favorite question

[00:47:52] [SPEAKER_00]: which is also one she asked us

[00:47:54] [SPEAKER_00]: on a Patreon live hangout

[00:47:56] [SPEAKER_00]: and that's just

[00:47:57] [SPEAKER_00]: if you remember those old

[00:47:59] [SPEAKER_00]: MySpace pages

[00:48:00] [SPEAKER_00]: how they could play a song

[00:48:01] [SPEAKER_00]: when you browse them

[00:48:02] [SPEAKER_00]: if our souls were MySpace pages

[00:48:04] [SPEAKER_00]: what would our song be?

[00:48:06] [SPEAKER_00]: That's a really good one Mallory

[00:48:07] [SPEAKER_00]: and I forget what I said

[00:48:09] [SPEAKER_00]: in our Patreon live

[00:48:10] [SPEAKER_00]: so I apologize

[00:48:11] [SPEAKER_00]: if this is a different answer

[00:48:13] [SPEAKER_00]: but

[00:48:14] [SPEAKER_00]: I feel

[00:48:16] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know

[00:48:17] [SPEAKER_00]: I feel like it would probably

[00:48:20] [SPEAKER_00]: maybe something

[00:48:21] [SPEAKER_00]: maybe something

[00:48:22] [SPEAKER_00]: maybe something off of rumors

[00:48:22] [SPEAKER_00]: by Fleetwood Mac

[00:48:24] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know

[00:48:28] [SPEAKER_00]: I think I said

[00:48:30] [SPEAKER_00]: seasons by future islands in Patreon

[00:48:32] [SPEAKER_00]: which is

[00:48:33] [SPEAKER_00]: which is true when I'm like

[00:48:34] [SPEAKER_00]: more calm and rational

[00:48:37] [SPEAKER_00]: but when

[00:48:37] [SPEAKER_00]: when things are getting a little stormy

[00:48:39] [SPEAKER_00]: maybe

[00:48:39] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know

[00:48:40] [SPEAKER_00]: maybe something like

[00:48:40] [SPEAKER_00]: Gold Dust Woman

[00:48:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Mallory pointed out here

[00:48:43] [SPEAKER_00]: that I had indeed said

[00:48:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Gold Dust Woman on Patreon

[00:48:46] [SPEAKER_00]: so at least I'm consistent

[00:48:48] [SPEAKER_00]: I just do

[00:48:49] [SPEAKER_00]: I want to clarify

[00:48:50] [SPEAKER_00]: I recognize that Gold Dust Woman

[00:48:51] [SPEAKER_00]: is probably about cocaine

[00:48:53] [SPEAKER_00]: that's not why I like it

[00:48:54] [SPEAKER_00]: it's just

[00:48:55] [SPEAKER_00]: it's just a very good song

[00:48:58] [SPEAKER_00]: what about yours?

[00:48:59] [SPEAKER_00]: You go now

[00:49:00] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't remember what I said

[00:49:01] [SPEAKER_01]: you remember what I said

[00:49:02] [SPEAKER_01]: you

[00:49:02] [SPEAKER_00]: you have to say something

[00:49:03] [SPEAKER_00]: by Frank Sinatra

[00:49:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I love Frank Sinatra

[00:49:06] [SPEAKER_01]: I love Frank Sinatra

[00:49:09] [SPEAKER_01]: my

[00:49:10] [SPEAKER_01]: my favorite

[00:49:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Sinatra album

[00:49:14] [SPEAKER_01]: might be an obscure one

[00:49:16] [SPEAKER_01]: called Watertown

[00:49:17] [SPEAKER_01]: which is just ultimately

[00:49:19] [SPEAKER_01]: about the value of

[00:49:20] [SPEAKER_01]: love and relationships

[00:49:21] [SPEAKER_00]: I thought your favorite Frank Sinatra album

[00:49:23] [SPEAKER_00]: was songs for swing and lovers

[00:49:26] [SPEAKER_01]: they're all good

[00:49:28] [SPEAKER_00]: that's actually a really good album guys

[00:49:30] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah you make it sound so perverted

[00:49:32] [SPEAKER_00]: and it's not like

[00:49:33] [SPEAKER_00]: it's like swing and dancing

[00:49:34] [SPEAKER_00]: it's not anything untoward

[00:49:38] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah

[00:49:39] [SPEAKER_00]: I feel like you like a lot of Cole Porter too

[00:49:41] [SPEAKER_01]: I love Cole Porter

[00:49:42] [SPEAKER_01]: one of the cases we covered

[00:49:44] [SPEAKER_01]: on our podcast

[00:49:46] [SPEAKER_01]: involved a guy named Keck and Klein

[00:49:49] [SPEAKER_01]: who was accused of awful crimes

[00:49:50] [SPEAKER_01]: in Peru, Indiana

[00:49:51] [SPEAKER_01]: that happens to be Cole Porter's hometown

[00:49:54] [SPEAKER_01]: so we ended up going to Peru a lot

[00:49:57] [SPEAKER_01]: because of this case

[00:49:58] [SPEAKER_01]: but then we really got to spend

[00:49:59] [SPEAKER_01]: a lot of time in the town

[00:50:00] [SPEAKER_01]: they have a Cole Porter festival

[00:50:02] [SPEAKER_00]: now I feel like we know everyone in Peru

[00:50:05] [SPEAKER_00]: it's whenever we go up there

[00:50:06] [SPEAKER_00]: we're like ah

[00:50:08] [SPEAKER_00]: people up there

[00:50:09] [SPEAKER_00]: it's a really cool place if you ever go

[00:50:10] [SPEAKER_00]: it's uh

[00:50:11] [SPEAKER_00]: there's a lot of Cole Porter stuff

[00:50:12] [SPEAKER_00]: that's awesome

[00:50:13] [SPEAKER_00]: and they have a festival

[00:50:14] [SPEAKER_00]: so you should go then

[00:50:15] [SPEAKER_00]: because that's when most of it

[00:50:17] [SPEAKER_00]: you know is kind of out there

[00:50:18] [SPEAKER_01]: they have a circus

[00:50:19] [SPEAKER_00]: they also have a circus

[00:50:20] [SPEAKER_00]: but that's another story

[00:50:23] [SPEAKER_00]: any other questions

[00:50:24] [SPEAKER_00]: and you can ask us about other cases

[00:50:26] [SPEAKER_00]: it doesn't have to be Kendallville specific

[00:50:28] [SPEAKER_00]: we've done a lot

[00:50:29] [SPEAKER_00]: we've done Delphi, Burger Chef

[00:50:31] [SPEAKER_00]: you know different

[00:50:32] [SPEAKER_00]: different ones

[00:50:33] [SPEAKER_00]: a gentleman asked us

[00:50:34] [SPEAKER_00]: if we could please give an update

[00:50:35] [SPEAKER_00]: as to where things stand

[00:50:37] [SPEAKER_00]: on the Delphi case

[00:50:38] [SPEAKER_00]: that's a that's a big question

[00:50:39] [SPEAKER_00]: so

[00:50:41] [SPEAKER_00]: no I like a big question

[00:50:43] [SPEAKER_00]: I think that's a good one

[00:50:45] [SPEAKER_00]: it's hard because we are

[00:50:47] [SPEAKER_00]: update kind of implies that

[00:50:49] [SPEAKER_00]: something big is going to happen

[00:50:51] [SPEAKER_00]: and kind of

[00:50:52] [SPEAKER_00]: blow everything else out of the water

[00:50:54] [SPEAKER_00]: and I feel like it's been a while

[00:50:55] [SPEAKER_00]: since we've really gotten that

[00:50:58] [SPEAKER_00]: I can tell you where I think we are

[00:51:00] [SPEAKER_00]: right now

[00:51:00] [SPEAKER_00]: I think we're in sort of a

[00:51:03] [SPEAKER_00]: a period of delay

[00:51:04] [SPEAKER_00]: and I personally

[00:51:06] [SPEAKER_00]: I hope I come to be wrong

[00:51:09] [SPEAKER_00]: but I don't feel like things

[00:51:10] [SPEAKER_00]: are going to go forward in October

[00:51:13] [SPEAKER_01]: the trial in the case is scheduled now

[00:51:15] [SPEAKER_01]: for October

[00:51:16] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah trial

[00:51:17] [SPEAKER_01]: in case you don't know

[00:51:18] [SPEAKER_01]: the Delphi case involves

[00:51:21] [SPEAKER_01]: two teenage girls

[00:51:23] [SPEAKER_01]: who were murdered back in 2017

[00:51:26] [SPEAKER_01]: they actually captured

[00:51:28] [SPEAKER_01]: one of them captured a short video

[00:51:31] [SPEAKER_01]: of the person believed to have killed them

[00:51:34] [SPEAKER_01]: and you would think

[00:51:35] [SPEAKER_01]: well that's pretty good evidence

[00:51:36] [SPEAKER_01]: it shouldn't take long to arrest

[00:51:38] [SPEAKER_01]: this guy at all

[00:51:39] [SPEAKER_01]: but it took them

[00:51:41] [SPEAKER_01]: close to five and a half years

[00:51:42] [SPEAKER_01]: I believe to make an arrest

[00:51:45] [SPEAKER_01]: and since then

[00:51:47] [SPEAKER_01]: there has been a lot of contention

[00:51:49] [SPEAKER_01]: going back and forth

[00:51:50] [SPEAKER_01]: between the defense attorneys in the case

[00:51:53] [SPEAKER_01]: and the judge in the case

[00:51:55] [SPEAKER_01]: and the prosecution in the case

[00:51:56] [SPEAKER_00]: and everybody in the case

[00:51:58] [SPEAKER_00]: I think

[00:51:58] [SPEAKER_01]: and the defense in the case came up

[00:52:01] [SPEAKER_01]: with an elaborate theory

[00:52:02] [SPEAKER_01]: where they said

[00:52:03] [SPEAKER_01]: it wasn't

[00:52:04] [SPEAKER_01]: our client who did this

[00:52:06] [SPEAKER_01]: this crime was actually committed

[00:52:08] [SPEAKER_01]: by a group of religious

[00:52:09] [SPEAKER_01]: odeness

[00:52:10] [SPEAKER_01]: and the prosecution said

[00:52:12] [SPEAKER_01]: we don't think you should be able to mention that

[00:52:15] [SPEAKER_01]: in the trial

[00:52:16] [SPEAKER_01]: unless you're able to produce some evidence

[00:52:18] [SPEAKER_01]: that these odeness

[00:52:19] [SPEAKER_01]: that you've named

[00:52:20] [SPEAKER_01]: were actually

[00:52:22] [SPEAKER_01]: in Delphi

[00:52:23] [SPEAKER_01]: at the time of the murder

[00:52:25] [SPEAKER_01]: and the defense wasn't able to do that

[00:52:27] [SPEAKER_01]: and so they're not going to be allowed

[00:52:29] [SPEAKER_01]: to mention these odeness

[00:52:31] [SPEAKER_01]: in the trial

[00:52:32] [SPEAKER_01]: and so they just got that news

[00:52:34] [SPEAKER_01]: I believe last week

[00:52:36] [SPEAKER_01]: and so they are saying now

[00:52:38] [SPEAKER_01]: well we

[00:52:39] [SPEAKER_01]: you've basically taken our defense away from us

[00:52:42] [SPEAKER_01]: we don't know what we can do

[00:52:44] [SPEAKER_01]: will you let us appeal it

[00:52:45] [SPEAKER_01]: and the judge said no

[00:52:47] [SPEAKER_01]: and so that's where it stands now

[00:52:50] [SPEAKER_01]: they have the option of

[00:52:52] [SPEAKER_01]: trying to take it to the Indiana Supreme Court

[00:52:55] [SPEAKER_01]: and seeing if they're have better luck there

[00:52:58] [SPEAKER_01]: they have the option of just going through

[00:53:00] [SPEAKER_01]: with the trial

[00:53:01] [SPEAKER_01]: and seeing what happens

[00:53:03] [SPEAKER_01]: even though

[00:53:04] [SPEAKER_01]: the defense they planned

[00:53:06] [SPEAKER_01]: they couldn't use

[00:53:07] [SPEAKER_01]: or they have the option of asking for a delay

[00:53:12] [SPEAKER_01]: and saying we need more time to come up

[00:53:14] [SPEAKER_01]: with a different theory

[00:53:15] [SPEAKER_01]: or a different defense

[00:53:16] [SPEAKER_01]: that we would be allowed to use

[00:53:17] [SPEAKER_00]: and yeah I think where we are

[00:53:19] [SPEAKER_00]: is our policy with that case

[00:53:21] [SPEAKER_00]: is we don't say what we personally think

[00:53:24] [SPEAKER_00]: about guilt or innocence

[00:53:25] [SPEAKER_00]: because that's just an opinion

[00:53:27] [SPEAKER_00]: and it's an uninformed one

[00:53:28] [SPEAKER_00]: because we haven't sat through a trial

[00:53:30] [SPEAKER_00]: we haven't seen the evidence

[00:53:31] [SPEAKER_00]: we haven't seen the defense

[00:53:34] [SPEAKER_00]: and so it would be unfair of us

[00:53:36] [SPEAKER_00]: to sort of say either way

[00:53:38] [SPEAKER_00]: but what I can tell you

[00:53:40] [SPEAKER_00]: in terms of

[00:53:41] [SPEAKER_00]: oh gosh

[00:53:42] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm sorry

[00:53:43] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm making it so no one can ask questions

[00:53:45] [SPEAKER_00]: but I

[00:53:47] [SPEAKER_00]: we don't say that

[00:53:49] [SPEAKER_00]: but I can tell you this

[00:53:50] [SPEAKER_00]: is that it's going to be

[00:53:53] [SPEAKER_00]: you're gonna need to have some

[00:53:55] [SPEAKER_00]: very good defense lawyers to

[00:53:56] [SPEAKER_00]: I think get past 61 confessions

[00:54:00] [SPEAKER_00]: and it's possible

[00:54:01] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean you have good defense lawyers out there

[00:54:04] [SPEAKER_00]: who I think can contextualize that

[00:54:06] [SPEAKER_00]: but a jury is going to hear those things

[00:54:09] [SPEAKER_00]: and a jury typically is going to need

[00:54:11] [SPEAKER_00]: some explanation that is plausible

[00:54:14] [SPEAKER_00]: for why something like that can happen

[00:54:16] [SPEAKER_00]: because from what we heard

[00:54:17] [SPEAKER_00]: and what we saw at the recent hearings

[00:54:20] [SPEAKER_00]: there's a pretty substantial case right now

[00:54:23] [SPEAKER_00]: it's perhaps stronger

[00:54:24] [SPEAKER_00]: than we thought it was in the beginning

[00:54:26] [SPEAKER_00]: and we'll be really curious

[00:54:28] [SPEAKER_00]: to see how they end up trying to

[00:54:32] [SPEAKER_00]: knock those off

[00:54:33] [SPEAKER_00]: I always kind of say like

[00:54:34] [SPEAKER_00]: the prosecution's like making a pile of stones

[00:54:37] [SPEAKER_00]: and each stone is a piece of evidence

[00:54:39] [SPEAKER_00]: and the defense's job is to knock them off

[00:54:41] [SPEAKER_00]: and if the defense can knock enough off

[00:54:43] [SPEAKER_00]: then maybe the weight goes down

[00:54:46] [SPEAKER_00]: and it quiddill happens

[00:54:47] [SPEAKER_00]: but if they can't knock them off

[00:54:49] [SPEAKER_00]: then I think

[00:54:51] [SPEAKER_00]: it's going to be

[00:54:52] [SPEAKER_00]: it's going to be difficult to imagine

[00:54:54] [SPEAKER_01]: before we started doing this

[00:54:56] [SPEAKER_01]: neither one of us had ever been

[00:54:58] [SPEAKER_01]: in a pretrial hearing

[00:54:59] [SPEAKER_01]: or anything

[00:55:01] [SPEAKER_01]: for a murder case

[00:55:03] [SPEAKER_01]: and that's really a fascinating experience

[00:55:07] [SPEAKER_01]: because when you are just reading about it

[00:55:09] [SPEAKER_01]: in the newspaper

[00:55:10] [SPEAKER_01]: or watching stories about it on TV

[00:55:13] [SPEAKER_01]: it's easy to forget

[00:55:14] [SPEAKER_01]: or at least it was for me

[00:55:16] [SPEAKER_01]: that there were very real people

[00:55:18] [SPEAKER_01]: at the center of this story

[00:55:21] [SPEAKER_01]: and sitting in this recent three-day hearing

[00:55:24] [SPEAKER_01]: we were just feet away

[00:55:26] [SPEAKER_01]: from the family members of the victims

[00:55:29] [SPEAKER_01]: and there were times when testimony was offered

[00:55:33] [SPEAKER_01]: which was awful

[00:55:34] [SPEAKER_01]: just awful

[00:55:35] [SPEAKER_01]: by that I mean they had a man on the stand

[00:55:39] [SPEAKER_01]: who was an expert in blood splatter testimony

[00:55:43] [SPEAKER_01]: and analyzing it

[00:55:44] [SPEAKER_01]: and so he was able to describe

[00:55:47] [SPEAKER_01]: in graphic detail

[00:55:50] [SPEAKER_01]: just what these two young girls went through

[00:55:53] [SPEAKER_01]: and the last traumatic moments of their lives

[00:55:57] [SPEAKER_01]: that's terrible to hear

[00:55:58] [SPEAKER_01]: it affected me emotionally

[00:56:00] [SPEAKER_01]: and at the same time

[00:56:02] [SPEAKER_01]: I never knew these girls in life

[00:56:04] [SPEAKER_01]: and just feet away from me

[00:56:07] [SPEAKER_01]: is sitting people who love them dearly

[00:56:10] [SPEAKER_01]: and just slowly in the courtroom

[00:56:12] [SPEAKER_01]: you just become aware of the sound

[00:56:15] [SPEAKER_01]: of all these people crying

[00:56:17] [SPEAKER_01]: and trying to stifle

[00:56:19] [SPEAKER_01]: stifle it

[00:56:19] [SPEAKER_01]: and it was just awful

[00:56:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah it was awful

[00:56:23] [SPEAKER_00]: and yeah I guess sorry we're rambling

[00:56:26] [SPEAKER_00]: if you get it started on Delphi

[00:56:28] [SPEAKER_00]: I guess we do that

[00:56:30] [SPEAKER_00]: but it's um

[00:56:31] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah I think we're just curious

[00:56:33] [SPEAKER_00]: about whether there will be delays at this point

[00:56:36] [SPEAKER_00]: I think that'll be the next big thing

[00:56:40] [SPEAKER_00]: A lady asked us what we used to research cases

[00:56:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Google

[00:56:43] [SPEAKER_00]: how do we gather information on the Schaefer case

[00:56:46] [SPEAKER_00]: she also noted that it's pronounced Schaefer

[00:56:48] [SPEAKER_00]: so apologies again for that

[00:56:50] [SPEAKER_00]: I love a process question

[00:56:52] [SPEAKER_00]: so it's funny

[00:56:54] [SPEAKER_00]: Google used to be such a wonderful tool

[00:56:58] [SPEAKER_00]: that I would use all the time

[00:56:59] [SPEAKER_00]: even a couple of years ago

[00:57:02] [SPEAKER_00]: but in recent times

[00:57:03] [SPEAKER_00]: I've really felt like their search functionality has declined

[00:57:06] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if any of you have found that

[00:57:08] [SPEAKER_00]: where it's like

[00:57:08] [SPEAKER_00]: you have to like

[00:57:10] [SPEAKER_00]: really type in the perfect thing

[00:57:12] [SPEAKER_00]: in order to get what you want

[00:57:14] [SPEAKER_00]: because otherwise you're gonna get a bunch of ads

[00:57:16] [SPEAKER_00]: or a bunch of like

[00:57:17] [SPEAKER_00]: I didn't want this

[00:57:17] [SPEAKER_00]: like there'll be sometimes a case

[00:57:19] [SPEAKER_00]: where I'm like oh okay

[00:57:20] [SPEAKER_00]: I know this happened in

[00:57:21] [SPEAKER_00]: Arkansas and involved two men

[00:57:22] [SPEAKER_00]: and you know like

[00:57:24] [SPEAKER_00]: years ago I'd be able to find it

[00:57:25] [SPEAKER_00]: and I know I sound like sort of an old

[00:57:27] [SPEAKER_00]: foggy where it's like back in my day

[00:57:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Google was good

[00:57:30] [SPEAKER_00]: and but there's apparently

[00:57:33] [SPEAKER_00]: they've harmed their own search

[00:57:35] [SPEAKER_00]: in the name of sales

[00:57:36] [SPEAKER_00]: and so

[00:57:38] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't use Google anymore

[00:57:39] [SPEAKER_00]: honestly for an older case

[00:57:41] [SPEAKER_00]: the only thing I typically really go through

[00:57:44] [SPEAKER_00]: is newspapers.com

[00:57:46] [SPEAKER_00]: which ironically is where I met Kevin

[00:57:49] [SPEAKER_00]: that's how we like

[00:57:50] [SPEAKER_00]: he saw me clipping articles on

[00:57:52] [SPEAKER_00]: on newspapers.com

[00:57:53] [SPEAKER_00]: for the Burger Chef case

[00:57:54] [SPEAKER_00]: and was like who's this person

[00:57:56] [SPEAKER_00]: and then reached out

[00:57:57] [SPEAKER_00]: and now we're mowery

[00:57:58] [SPEAKER_00]: then we have a podcast

[00:57:59] [SPEAKER_00]: so that worked out well I guess

[00:58:02] [SPEAKER_01]: that newspapers.com is basically

[00:58:04] [SPEAKER_01]: a site that has literally millions

[00:58:08] [SPEAKER_01]: of pages of old newspapers

[00:58:10] [SPEAKER_01]: and it's very easy to search them

[00:58:13] [SPEAKER_01]: and they have

[00:58:15] [SPEAKER_01]: newspapers from the 1920s

[00:58:17] [SPEAKER_01]: from this area

[00:58:18] [SPEAKER_00]: and I'll tell you this

[00:58:20] [SPEAKER_00]: if you're interested in older cases

[00:58:23] [SPEAKER_00]: if you're interested in doing research

[00:58:24] [SPEAKER_00]: of any kind

[00:58:25] [SPEAKER_00]: it's worth a subscription

[00:58:27] [SPEAKER_00]: at least a temporary one

[00:58:28] [SPEAKER_00]: because you can really get a lot

[00:58:30] [SPEAKER_00]: and they

[00:58:32] [SPEAKER_00]: honestly it breaks my heart

[00:58:33] [SPEAKER_00]: to use it though

[00:58:34] [SPEAKER_00]: because like

[00:58:35] [SPEAKER_00]: back in the day

[00:58:36] [SPEAKER_00]: there used to be such robust news

[00:58:38] [SPEAKER_00]: coverage

[00:58:38] [SPEAKER_00]: even in a town like Kendallville

[00:58:41] [SPEAKER_00]: you had a lot of papers

[00:58:42] [SPEAKER_00]: that were competing

[00:58:44] [SPEAKER_00]: then you know the bigger Fort Wayne

[00:58:45] [SPEAKER_00]: papers might come in

[00:58:46] [SPEAKER_00]: and do a larger feature

[00:58:47] [SPEAKER_00]: but then you know you have the Waterloo press

[00:58:49] [SPEAKER_00]: like all these different ones

[00:58:51] [SPEAKER_00]: and the competition fueled stories

[00:58:55] [SPEAKER_00]: because everyone was trying to

[00:58:56] [SPEAKER_00]: get the facts right

[00:58:58] [SPEAKER_00]: and get them first

[00:58:58] [SPEAKER_00]: and get them more detailed

[00:59:00] [SPEAKER_00]: and it led to a lot of light

[00:59:02] [SPEAKER_00]: being shown in things

[00:59:03] [SPEAKER_00]: and unfortunately like we've been at

[00:59:05] [SPEAKER_00]: I remember we were at a murder trial

[00:59:07] [SPEAKER_00]: in Brown County

[00:59:07] [SPEAKER_00]: and it was like a big deal

[00:59:09] [SPEAKER_00]: people cared about this locally

[00:59:11] [SPEAKER_00]: and we were the only media outlet there

[00:59:14] [SPEAKER_00]: and we were just like

[00:59:16] [SPEAKER_00]: you know 50 years ago

[00:59:18] [SPEAKER_00]: you know 100 years ago

[00:59:20] [SPEAKER_00]: there would be like three papers here

[00:59:21] [SPEAKER_00]: and it's not good

[00:59:24] [SPEAKER_00]: for so many reasons

[00:59:25] [SPEAKER_00]: but unfortunately just the decline of local media

[00:59:29] [SPEAKER_00]: is something that very much has happened

[00:59:32] [SPEAKER_00]: but yeah newspapers.com

[00:59:34] [SPEAKER_00]: and you can kind of get creative

[00:59:35] [SPEAKER_00]: with your searches

[00:59:37] [SPEAKER_00]: so I looked up

[00:59:38] [SPEAKER_00]: I started out with like literally

[00:59:39] [SPEAKER_00]: just Kendallville murder

[00:59:40] [SPEAKER_00]: and then I

[00:59:42] [SPEAKER_00]: you have to weed out a lot of stuff

[00:59:44] [SPEAKER_00]: because you know Kendallville

[00:59:45] [SPEAKER_00]: may be on the same page

[00:59:46] [SPEAKER_00]: as a murder in Fort Wayne

[00:59:47] [SPEAKER_00]: and you don't want that

[00:59:48] [SPEAKER_00]: but once you start narrowing down on things

[00:59:51] [SPEAKER_00]: what I do is I actually look for

[00:59:53] [SPEAKER_00]: oh god I'm going to sound so dumb

[00:59:55] [SPEAKER_00]: what's it called?

[00:59:56] [SPEAKER_00]: It's like at the dateline

[00:59:57] [SPEAKER_00]: when it's like Kendallville dash

[01:00:00] [SPEAKER_00]: here's what happened

[01:00:01] [SPEAKER_00]: is that a dateline?

[01:00:02] [SPEAKER_00]: I think so

[01:00:03] [SPEAKER_00]: I wasn't really a print journalist

[01:00:05] [SPEAKER_00]: I was I was more on the digital side of things

[01:00:07] [SPEAKER_00]: so I don't know this

[01:00:07] [SPEAKER_00]: but it's like

[01:00:09] [SPEAKER_00]: I would look up where

[01:00:10] [SPEAKER_00]: you know Kendallville

[01:00:11] [SPEAKER_00]: would be the first word

[01:00:12] [SPEAKER_00]: because that would tell you

[01:00:13] [SPEAKER_00]: that the reporter was literally in Kendallville

[01:00:15] [SPEAKER_00]: writing it

[01:00:16] [SPEAKER_00]: and that would be

[01:00:18] [SPEAKER_00]: what I would specifically look for

[01:00:20] [SPEAKER_00]: and then once you

[01:00:22] [SPEAKER_00]: you know there's problems with it

[01:00:23] [SPEAKER_00]: sometimes names get spelled wrong

[01:00:25] [SPEAKER_00]: details can be wrong

[01:00:26] [SPEAKER_00]: but generally you can

[01:00:29] [SPEAKER_00]: use their search to actually narrow in

[01:00:31] [SPEAKER_00]: on like all Indiana cases

[01:00:33] [SPEAKER_00]: or even just like

[01:00:34] [SPEAKER_00]: specifically look at one newspaper

[01:00:36] [SPEAKER_00]: so you can narrow

[01:00:38] [SPEAKER_00]: your search terms pretty readily

[01:00:40] [SPEAKER_00]: and then other than that

[01:00:41] [SPEAKER_00]: I would say oftentimes

[01:00:43] [SPEAKER_00]: you know like

[01:00:45] [SPEAKER_00]: local historical societies can be

[01:00:47] [SPEAKER_00]: can be helpful

[01:00:48] [SPEAKER_00]: local historians can be helpful

[01:00:50] [SPEAKER_00]: we didn't utilize that in this situation

[01:00:52] [SPEAKER_00]: but that can be

[01:00:53] [SPEAKER_00]: good if you're looking for older cases too

[01:00:56] [SPEAKER_00]: a gentleman asked us

[01:00:57] [SPEAKER_00]: if we could kill or confirm the rumor

[01:00:59] [SPEAKER_00]: that family culpability is being

[01:01:01] [SPEAKER_00]: looked out in the Delphi case

[01:01:03] [SPEAKER_00]: this is one of those rumors

[01:01:05] [SPEAKER_00]: that kind of goes around eternally

[01:01:06] [SPEAKER_00]: online

[01:01:07] [SPEAKER_00]: but there's no truth to it

[01:01:10] [SPEAKER_00]: that being said

[01:01:11] [SPEAKER_00]: our answer reflected the idea that

[01:01:14] [SPEAKER_00]: no one ever knows what

[01:01:15] [SPEAKER_00]: this defense team is going to do

[01:01:16] [SPEAKER_01]: so early on in this case

[01:01:19] [SPEAKER_01]: it's fair to say

[01:01:21] [SPEAKER_01]: that everybody was

[01:01:23] [SPEAKER_01]: or died forever

[01:01:24] [SPEAKER_01]: including family members

[01:01:27] [SPEAKER_01]: and they really wasn't anything there

[01:01:29] [SPEAKER_01]: so they do launch more productive

[01:01:31] [SPEAKER_01]: fleets

[01:01:32] [SPEAKER_00]: and as far as whether or not

[01:01:35] [SPEAKER_00]: the defense team for Richard Downer

[01:01:37] [SPEAKER_00]: is going to bring in a family

[01:01:39] [SPEAKER_00]: culpability angle

[01:01:40] [SPEAKER_00]: now that odinism has been removed

[01:01:44] [SPEAKER_00]: it's not clear

[01:01:45] [SPEAKER_00]: it's just

[01:01:46] [SPEAKER_00]: it's too soon to tell

[01:01:47] [SPEAKER_00]: I think we'll all have a better understanding

[01:01:49] [SPEAKER_00]: about that with the

[01:01:51] [SPEAKER_00]: you know the tenor of future filings

[01:01:55] [SPEAKER_00]: there's some things where you kind of

[01:01:58] [SPEAKER_00]: with things in the past

[01:02:00] [SPEAKER_00]: in terms of like

[01:02:00] [SPEAKER_00]: oh questions about her

[01:02:02] [SPEAKER_00]: you know Libby's phone and whatnot

[01:02:03] [SPEAKER_00]: there's maybe a little bit of a whiff there

[01:02:06] [SPEAKER_00]: but I don't think that's enough

[01:02:07] [SPEAKER_00]: to base any conclusions

[01:02:08] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah through what it's worth

[01:02:10] [SPEAKER_01]: I've never seen any evidence

[01:02:12] [SPEAKER_01]: that would make me

[01:02:13] [SPEAKER_00]: the gentleman followed up asking if family

[01:02:15] [SPEAKER_00]: culpability had been officially ruled out in Delphi

[01:02:18] [SPEAKER_00]: so there's a kind of a concept in

[01:02:20] [SPEAKER_00]: I think law enforcement that tends to be

[01:02:22] [SPEAKER_00]: no one gets ruled out until there's a conviction

[01:02:24] [SPEAKER_00]: until there's an arrest

[01:02:25] [SPEAKER_00]: you know but

[01:02:26] [SPEAKER_00]: but really a conviction

[01:02:28] [SPEAKER_00]: um

[01:02:28] [SPEAKER_00]: so I think the fact that we have

[01:02:30] [SPEAKER_00]: another you know we have Richard Allen

[01:02:32] [SPEAKER_00]: being arrested in Delphi

[01:02:34] [SPEAKER_00]: is a good indicator that

[01:02:36] [SPEAKER_00]: police felt that there wasn't enough for Kagan Klein

[01:02:39] [SPEAKER_00]: there wasn't enough for Ron Logan

[01:02:40] [SPEAKER_00]: and then there wasn't enough for anybody else

[01:02:43] [SPEAKER_00]: and so I would say that that's a pretty strong

[01:02:46] [SPEAKER_00]: you know you're not going to get

[01:02:50] [SPEAKER_00]: police who kind of sit down and say okay

[01:02:52] [SPEAKER_00]: we ruled this guy out this guy out this guy out

[01:02:54] [SPEAKER_00]: because that's just you know that would be

[01:02:56] [SPEAKER_00]: that would be potentially harmful to the case

[01:02:58] [SPEAKER_00]: if they wanted to change their minds later

[01:03:01] [SPEAKER_00]: but I think

[01:03:03] [SPEAKER_00]: in my own view knowing

[01:03:06] [SPEAKER_00]: this case yeah there's no

[01:03:09] [SPEAKER_00]: I really don't think there's any serious

[01:03:11] [SPEAKER_00]: consideration of family involvement at this point

[01:03:14] [SPEAKER_00]: whether or not they'll be broadened as a defense is

[01:03:17] [SPEAKER_00]: is kind of

[01:03:18] [SPEAKER_00]: that's really what we wonder about

[01:03:20] [SPEAKER_00]: because they have been willing to use

[01:03:22] [SPEAKER_00]: controversial defenses in the past

[01:03:24] [SPEAKER_00]: and that would certainly be a controversial one

[01:03:26] [SPEAKER_00]: but I don't

[01:03:29] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know I think you have the risk then

[01:03:32] [SPEAKER_00]: as the defense team of really looking

[01:03:35] [SPEAKER_00]: terrible

[01:03:36] [SPEAKER_00]: because there would be a lot of

[01:03:38] [SPEAKER_00]: I think what people would perceive as victim blaming

[01:03:40] [SPEAKER_00]: with that

[01:03:41] [SPEAKER_00]: a lady asked us if we had ever brainstormed

[01:03:44] [SPEAKER_00]: how we would do things differently than the defense team in the Delphi case

[01:03:48] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah the question is uh have we ever thought about

[01:03:51] [SPEAKER_00]: if if we were somehow on the defense team

[01:03:53] [SPEAKER_00]: how we would have done things differently and defended Richard Allen

[01:03:56] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah the answer is yes and not only that we've talked to other uh

[01:04:00] [SPEAKER_00]: we are you eavesdropping on our conversations

[01:04:04] [SPEAKER_01]: and we've talked to a number of defense attorneys who have come up

[01:04:07] [SPEAKER_01]: and said well here's how I would do it

[01:04:09] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to tell you this okay so we talked to a lot of defense attorneys

[01:04:12] [SPEAKER_00]: and and you know all types of attorneys but especially defense attorneys

[01:04:17] [SPEAKER_00]: off the record and they're people who will never be on the show

[01:04:20] [SPEAKER_00]: they don't want to be on the show they just want to kind of

[01:04:22] [SPEAKER_00]: talk to us and bounce ideas around

[01:04:24] [SPEAKER_00]: and every time there's a defense filing now

[01:04:27] [SPEAKER_00]: it's like our phones just go you know like they're all like here's what I would have done

[01:04:32] [SPEAKER_00]: and you know there's a certain level of Monday morning quarterbacking

[01:04:36] [SPEAKER_00]: because we don't have all the information that they do

[01:04:38] [SPEAKER_00]: and it's possible that if we did we would understand choices more

[01:04:42] [SPEAKER_00]: be more sympathetic that's all possible so we always want to acknowledge that but

[01:04:48] [SPEAKER_01]: I think the big thing to remember is that it's not like Perry Mason

[01:04:52] [SPEAKER_01]: it's not up for the defense attorney to actually solve the crime

[01:04:57] [SPEAKER_01]: all they have to do is poke holes in the prosecution's case

[01:05:02] [SPEAKER_01]: so one thing that we've heard said is why not just do that

[01:05:07] [SPEAKER_01]: instead of saying oh we think it's these odinous why not say these are some things

[01:05:11] [SPEAKER_01]: we think the law enforcement and the investigation did wrong

[01:05:16] [SPEAKER_01]: when the key pieces of evidence is there was a bullet found to the crime scene

[01:05:20] [SPEAKER_01]: that has been ballistically linked to a gun owned by Richard Allen

[01:05:24] [SPEAKER_01]: so why not criticize the science for that how can we be really sure

[01:05:29] [SPEAKER_01]: it's just uh it's just guesswork

[01:05:31] [SPEAKER_01]: uh the fact that his name was lost in files for about five years that

[01:05:40] [SPEAKER_01]: that's really sloppy a few weeks before he was arrested they were still

[01:05:46] [SPEAKER_01]: doing expensive river searches for a case or a suspect for another suspect in the case

[01:05:53] [SPEAKER_01]: so these are some of the things they say that they would do

[01:05:56] [SPEAKER_00]: and then we hear what they say and then we start bouncing out I'm not a lawyer obviously

[01:06:00] [SPEAKER_00]: but I still like to you know kind of it's being a defense lawyer I think can be interesting

[01:06:05] [SPEAKER_00]: because it really is about knocking down if the prosecution's job is to like say build a fence

[01:06:11] [SPEAKER_00]: then all the defense really has to do is actually just like kick down the fence

[01:06:15] [SPEAKER_00]: you know it has to withstand that onslaught um and we've we've kind of practiced some of that

[01:06:22] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean we once heard like a defense attorney just sort of rattle off on the cuff like a very

[01:06:27] [SPEAKER_00]: good kind of outline of like an opening statement once and I was like dang like

[01:06:34] [SPEAKER_00]: you would have been good um like that would have been really good and and so but you know at the

[01:06:38] [SPEAKER_00]: same time it's it's not quite fair you know we we've got a lot of concerns about some of the

[01:06:43] [SPEAKER_00]: performance things and we've been pretty open with that on the show but it's possible that

[01:06:47] [SPEAKER_00]: one day when all this comes out in trial or everything comes out afterwards it'll be like

[01:06:52] [SPEAKER_00]: oh well we couldn't do this common sense thing because of x you know like there might be

[01:06:57] [SPEAKER_00]: some way to kind of tie it all it all together in a way that makes sense and another thing to

[01:07:02] [SPEAKER_01]: remember is is their client Richard Allen has confessed to the crime not once not twice not

[01:07:09] [SPEAKER_01]: three times but 61 times and so I think any defense attorney who has a client who has confessed

[01:07:17] [SPEAKER_01]: 61 times is going to struggle to do a good job yeah I'm gonna say this though I still

[01:07:22] [SPEAKER_00]: don't understand why they put so much on the odinism theory just because I felt like that was

[01:07:29] [SPEAKER_00]: you know it I figured we would kind of come into the three-day hearing with a little bit more

[01:07:34] [SPEAKER_00]: heft to that based on the amount of work they'd been putting into it and I was surprised

[01:07:40] [SPEAKER_00]: that it felt like they didn't really add that much to that and so that was kind of a concern

[01:07:45] [SPEAKER_00]: to see the same lady had a follow-up question noting that convicted child predator Kagan Klein

[01:07:50] [SPEAKER_00]: was supposed to make a follow-up statement to us about his link to Delphi she also noted she always

[01:07:56] [SPEAKER_00]: felt it was still possibly linked and that there maybe could be ways of Klein being linked with Allen

[01:08:02] [SPEAKER_00]: without it being super well documented and indicated that it was interesting to her that

[01:08:07] [SPEAKER_00]: the defense team did not dig into that theory more so she was asking about kegan Klein

[01:08:14] [SPEAKER_01]: and for those of you who don't know Kagan Klein is a person in Peru Indiana who has been convicted

[01:08:22] [SPEAKER_01]: of a variety of crimes involving child sexual abuse materials and he had a fake profile he used

[01:08:30] [SPEAKER_01]: to communicate with underage girls online and one of the girls he communicated with was one

[01:08:44] [SPEAKER_01]: of the girls he was talking to and he was also able to communicate with her online

[01:08:45] [SPEAKER_01]: shortly before the murders not only all of that but at different times he has indicated that he had

[01:08:52] [SPEAKER_01]: knowledge about the murders he even at one point claimed that his father did the murders

[01:08:59] [SPEAKER_01]: but police were unable to really prove that what he was saying was true and so the question is

[01:09:07] [SPEAKER_01]: there's still the possibility of a connection there yeah I think it's a great question and

[01:09:12] [SPEAKER_00]: it's something that we're open to we'll just have to see I think we're kind of just in a place

[01:09:16] [SPEAKER_00]: where we're kind of in a holding pattern with that because it's like you know it's honestly

[01:09:21] [SPEAKER_00]: we were really shocked that the defense didn't go for a kegan Klein defense immediately and stick

[01:09:26] [SPEAKER_00]: to that because that just seemed like the obvious move and so we were I mean when we saw that

[01:09:31] [SPEAKER_00]: at first we were like well maybe there's some fatal flaw with it and I'm I confess I'm still kind of

[01:09:38] [SPEAKER_00]: confused in terms of you know he indicated to us at one point well after my you know legal matter is

[01:09:46] [SPEAKER_00]: over I'll make a statement to you and explain everything and then that turned out to just be

[01:09:51] [SPEAKER_00]: we did interview him a second time and we put that on there but that was just him basically

[01:09:55] [SPEAKER_00]: being like I didn't have anything to do with it I was like okay thank you you know one thing

[01:09:59] [SPEAKER_00]: you have to understand about kegan is that he lies constantly and he lies convincingly we would talk

[01:10:04] [SPEAKER_00]: to him we'd text with him again and again and we knew he was a liar and he's there's still something

[01:10:12] [SPEAKER_00]: about him and this sounds wild but like he's very convincing he's very it's and it's like you go

[01:10:20] [SPEAKER_00]: in expecting that and you go in expecting okay he's gonna deceive us but he's um yeah he's he kind

[01:10:27] [SPEAKER_00]: of lies like he breathes so when he told us we're gonna give you a statement it's at the end of

[01:10:31] [SPEAKER_00]: the day we kind of were like well okay we'll see what see what happens but um you know at this point

[01:10:37] [SPEAKER_00]: he's he's uh he's incarcerated in prison so maybe honestly maybe we should check on him um because

[01:10:45] [SPEAKER_00]: I'll be I'll be curious how he feels about uh you know at this point the defense sort of

[01:10:50] [SPEAKER_00]: minimally brought him into things um in the three-day hearing but now you know he's not

[01:10:56] [SPEAKER_00]: gonna be mentioned at trial because of gull's ruling so you know it's it's gonna be interesting but

[01:11:02] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah I think we're just kind of curious like we have specific questions about what happened with

[01:11:06] [SPEAKER_00]: the clients that we want answered but I don't think we'll get answers to any about until later on

[01:11:12] [SPEAKER_00]: after during trial perhaps or maybe afterwards once the case is over another lady had two

[01:11:18] [SPEAKER_00]: questions about judge Francis gull's handling of the case one why would the public be barred

[01:11:23] [SPEAKER_00]: from viewing the trial via cameras and two why did she throw out the odinous defense great questions

[01:11:30] [SPEAKER_00]: so the questions are why has judge gull not allowed cameras in the courtroom and why did

[01:11:35] [SPEAKER_00]: she throw out the odinous defense let's tackle the first one first so in indiana traditionally

[01:11:42] [SPEAKER_00]: there were no cameras in courtrooms that changed very recently ironically judge gull was one of the

[01:11:48] [SPEAKER_00]: uh the judges who was in a pilot courtroom so they experimented with it and it's since been

[01:11:55] [SPEAKER_00]: introduced that in some cases if judges are okay with it they can bring cameras into the courtroom

[01:12:00] [SPEAKER_00]: and they can allow that and in this case there's obviously a huge public interest and it would

[01:12:07] [SPEAKER_00]: frankly help with crowd control in my view um because people wouldn't have to go there in

[01:12:14] [SPEAKER_00]: person they could just watch from home and to me it would be highly beneficial for people to see it

[01:12:22] [SPEAKER_00]: now i've heard people from the other side of it who have different opinions and what I frequently

[01:12:27] [SPEAKER_00]: hear is um cameras encourage sort of an oj simpson style grandstanding from certain attorneys

[01:12:35] [SPEAKER_00]: and would um just lead to more of a circus environment and i understand that i think there's

[01:12:43] [SPEAKER_00]: ways to mitigate that risk personally but um i understand that and in addition to that um

[01:12:51] [SPEAKER_00]: essentially that there was so much fear after the leak about um you know there've been high

[01:12:57] [SPEAKER_00]: profile cases where juries faces have been shown by accident just total accident just the

[01:13:03] [SPEAKER_00]: cameraman you know something happened and someone got in view and it was a problem

[01:13:08] [SPEAKER_00]: and essentially that there's a lot of sensitivity towards this case because it involves two kids

[01:13:14] [SPEAKER_00]: involves graphic images it involves graphic details um my wish would be if we're not going

[01:13:21] [SPEAKER_00]: to do cameras we do audio if we're not going to do audio we at least assign seats to media outlets

[01:13:29] [SPEAKER_00]: and i'm not even saying that like i don't even know if we'd be considered a media outlet as a

[01:13:37] [SPEAKER_00]: people a seat you know like i don't know why they have to be like waiting out in line at like five in

[01:13:42] [SPEAKER_00]: the morning you know it's like you know i think that would make things run better um if you had

[01:13:48] [SPEAKER_00]: journalists who at least knew they were going to get a seat and knew they were going to be able

[01:13:52] [SPEAKER_00]: to cover it in depth as a result of that but i'll tell you this my view is that judge gull is not

[01:13:58] [SPEAKER_00]: a very media friendly judge i don't i think the fact that like allen county is a place where your

[01:14:04] [SPEAKER_00]: phone can get destroyed if you bring it into court should tell us you know what the feeling is there

[01:14:11] [SPEAKER_00]: they have that way of doing things and i can disagree with it but at the end of the day it is

[01:14:16] [SPEAKER_00]: her right as a judge to determine what she thinks would be best so it's going to be i guess for

[01:14:22] [SPEAKER_00]: me like uh i don't like it but she's allowed to do it so the odinism defense is what uh i alluded

[01:14:31] [SPEAKER_01]: to earlier where the defense has come up with this theory that the murder was actually committed by a

[01:14:39] [SPEAKER_01]: group of odinists like a religious cult they believe it was like a ritual murder and they wanted to

[01:14:45] [SPEAKER_01]: present that at the trial and judge gull says no you can't do that and what that boils down to

[01:14:52] [SPEAKER_01]: is balancing interests in some way the criminal justice system is all about balancing one person's

[01:14:59] [SPEAKER_01]: interests against another person's interests and in this case ask yourself how you would feel

[01:15:07] [SPEAKER_01]: if a defense attorney stood up in court and said my client is innocent of the murder it's actually

[01:15:14] [SPEAKER_01]: you who did it and gave your name i think you would feel unhappy about that and you would

[01:15:21] [SPEAKER_01]: feel unhappy also if they accused a family member of murder so you would hope that

[01:15:27] [SPEAKER_01]: that would only be something that would be allowed to occur in a trial if there was actually evidence

[01:15:33] [SPEAKER_01]: that the person accused had something to do with it and also it gets to the fact that if you're

[01:15:40] [SPEAKER_01]: accusing people without evidence in a trial you're only confusing the jury there's all

[01:15:47] [SPEAKER_01]: sorts of evidentiary rules you only want the jury to hear certain types of evidence that's

[01:15:52] [SPEAKER_01]: relevant and so we had this three-day hearing like recently and one of the things that the hearing

[01:15:58] [SPEAKER_01]: was judge gull was essentially telling the defense attorneys here's where you put up or shut up

[01:16:04] [SPEAKER_01]: if you have evidence that actually tends to prove that these people who you've named as being

[01:16:12] [SPEAKER_01]: the murders actually had something to do with the crime offer it now if you can prove they're

[01:16:18] [SPEAKER_01]: connected to the crime then we can talk about them during the actual murder trial

[01:16:23] [SPEAKER_01]: and the defense wasn't able to do that their investigators were not even able to say that

[01:16:31] [SPEAKER_01]: the people who they accused of this murder were even in the town of delphi on the day it was

[01:16:36] [SPEAKER_01]: committed all they really had was just guesses and suppositions and conspiracy theories and so

[01:16:44] [SPEAKER_01]: the judge said that's not enough you need more than that in order to bring it into the trial

[01:16:51] [SPEAKER_00]: and so that's why it was thrown out yeah third party defense is pretty strict in indiana where

[01:16:58] [SPEAKER_00]: you need to get to that point with the evidence where you know you you fit those

[01:17:04] [SPEAKER_00]: evidentiary standards and i think we felt that odinism fell well beyond that i think we both

[01:17:09] [SPEAKER_00]: thought that keg and kline was very much a toss up and we felt like there would be reasonable

[01:17:15] [SPEAKER_00]: there there would be a reasonable move to bring keg and kline in and there would be a reasonable

[01:17:19] [SPEAKER_00]: move to not allow it but that seemed more like a coin toss um and then ron logan they just didn't

[01:17:25] [SPEAKER_00]: mean he was another suspect who came up they didn't really try with that they kind of talked

[01:17:29] [SPEAKER_00]: about ron logan for five minutes and then sort of moved on so um and another thing is if they

[01:17:35] [SPEAKER_01]: couldn't even convince the judge that there was a connection between odinism and the murder

[01:17:42] [SPEAKER_01]: it's difficult to imagine a jury would have been convinced well yeah i think you always can get

[01:17:48] [SPEAKER_00]: a jury that surprises you though any other questions another lady asked us why we think some cases

[01:17:54] [SPEAKER_00]: become so high profile and others don't that is such a great question so why the question is

[01:18:00] [SPEAKER_00]: why do some cases become high profile so i have a theory about delphi specifically um

[01:18:08] [SPEAKER_00]: i think the fact that there was a video that was released early on and it was very blurry

[01:18:14] [SPEAKER_00]: but it was almost like kevin describes it as like one of those arcade games where you keep

[01:18:18] [SPEAKER_00]: being so close to getting the toy with the claw and then you know you almost keep playing

[01:18:23] [SPEAKER_00]: because you think i'm almost there this is something tantalizing like if i could just

[01:18:28] [SPEAKER_00]: squint hard enough i could make a face out of these pixels and i could identify the awful human

[01:18:34] [SPEAKER_00]: being who did this to these kids um you know the fact that they are you know kids in like small

[01:18:40] [SPEAKER_00]: town america where it's like they're just doing something innocuous and something horrible happens

[01:18:45] [SPEAKER_00]: i think intrigued people and i think the video made people made the internet in particular

[01:18:51] [SPEAKER_00]: feel like we can solve this and i think that was uh that was a positive and certainly well

[01:18:59] [SPEAKER_00]: meaning well intentioned impulse i think unfortunately sometimes that impulse can get

[01:19:05] [SPEAKER_00]: curdled and certainly has to a certain extent in delphi where people kind of feel an ownership

[01:19:11] [SPEAKER_00]: about a case and it's like well it's my suspect it must be my suspect that's guilty it can't be

[01:19:15] [SPEAKER_00]: like people almost treat it like a football game which is troubling but um i think that's what was

[01:19:22] [SPEAKER_00]: the hook in delphi making people feel like we can scour facebook and see some guy who looks similar

[01:19:29] [SPEAKER_00]: but the problem is it's a very pixelated video and so there's a limit to what can be done with

[01:19:36] [SPEAKER_00]: that at a certain point but it gave people some hope and i think it also fueled anger because

[01:19:42] [SPEAKER_00]: it was like these girls did this brave thing in the last moment of their lives they captured

[01:19:46] [SPEAKER_00]: an image of this man and why can't we reach a conclusion you know follow up what they did

[01:19:53] [SPEAKER_00]: why is it still unsolved it just galled people and fueled that and then in other cases um you

[01:20:01] [SPEAKER_00]: know the media can kind of latch on to a victim that's considered you know maybe affluent

[01:20:07] [SPEAKER_00]: or aspirational or very pretty um you know like one thing you might be surprised are is you know

[01:20:13] [SPEAKER_00]: men make up the vast majority of of murder victims you would not know that from media coverage you

[01:20:19] [SPEAKER_00]: would think that it was women and that's because women tend to attract more media coverage you

[01:20:24] [SPEAKER_00]: know women from wealthier backgrounds women from you know uh who are white dissent like they

[01:20:30] [SPEAKER_00]: you know there's certain people that unfortunately i think there's been work done on that

[01:20:34] [SPEAKER_00]: people have tried to um spread it out so that you know everyone can kind of get some attention but

[01:20:39] [SPEAKER_00]: unfortunately they're i mean i've heard people talk about cases they're like oh well you know

[01:20:45] [SPEAKER_00]: that's a depressing case because it's unsolved you should do like a sexy case that's solved and is

[01:20:50] [SPEAKER_00]: like salacious and it's like i i understand that but i i you know i think there's nothing

[01:20:55] [SPEAKER_00]: wrong with doing a solved case certainly um it can be really educational but i think sometimes

[01:21:01] [SPEAKER_00]: it's like i feel like um like when we hear about like in publishing or in um true crime

[01:21:10] [SPEAKER_00]: documentaries on streaming services one thing you always hear is they want an ending they

[01:21:15] [SPEAKER_00]: want an ending they need an ending to do anything on it and i think that's backwards because i think

[01:21:21] [SPEAKER_00]: it's the unsolved cases that typically could use a boost and could use

[01:21:25] [SPEAKER_00]: the public service announcement of like everyone's eyeballs on them as opposed to like let's do a

[01:21:31] [SPEAKER_00]: hundredth you know scott peterson documentary it's like or ted bundy or whatnot it's like we

[01:21:36] [SPEAKER_00]: i think um that's just my own opinion people can disagree but um i think sometimes like cases

[01:21:45] [SPEAKER_00]: are popular because they they're already popular and they just get more popular and people just

[01:21:50] [SPEAKER_00]: keep on doing stuff about them so it's like a positive feedback loop at some point do you

[01:21:56] [SPEAKER_00]: have anything to add that was just rambling sorry a lady asked us if we've ever investigated

[01:22:03] [SPEAKER_00]: a case involving shaken baby syndrome this attendee had a person they knew a babysitter who had

[01:22:08] [SPEAKER_00]: been arrested in such a case so the question is have we ever investigated a shaken baby syndrome case

[01:22:16] [SPEAKER_00]: and you know what what can that look like and i can i off the top of my head i do not believe

[01:22:22] [SPEAKER_00]: we ever have covered extensively a shaken baby case i know we've we've certainly done cases that

[01:22:29] [SPEAKER_00]: have touched upon child abuse in general or even the murder of infants we covered the lucy let

[01:22:35] [SPEAKER_00]: be case recently out of um england but shaken baby specifically no and what you're what you're

[01:22:41] [SPEAKER_00]: saying is really interesting because i feel like um it would be interesting to look specifically at

[01:22:47] [SPEAKER_00]: the the medical the science right the um the forensics because unfortunately one thing we've

[01:22:54] [SPEAKER_00]: learned is that forensics can be flawed i mean we kind of all have a view of it as as very much

[01:23:02] [SPEAKER_00]: set in stone but that's not necessarily true when you look at true crime sometimes something

[01:23:07] [SPEAKER_00]: that can seem great can turn out to be a lot less certain and so i imagine the same could be

[01:23:13] [SPEAKER_00]: for things that are forensic related in terms of that and you know you don't want to see innocent

[01:23:19] [SPEAKER_00]: people going to prison based on bad science so it's a great suggestion and thank you um

[01:23:27] [SPEAKER_00]: i think that could definitely be on our list but we definitely would want to get that scientific

[01:23:32] [SPEAKER_00]: background how do they tell us that as opposed to like something that's more accidental

[01:23:36] [SPEAKER_00]: one lady asked us about the flora fire that killed four little girls in flora indiana in carol

[01:23:42] [SPEAKER_00]: county have we ever covered that or thought about covering it yeah so the question is have we ever

[01:23:48] [SPEAKER_00]: considered covering the flora arson case that that killed those four little girls in in flora

[01:23:54] [SPEAKER_00]: which happened at a similar i think pretty close in time to the delphi murders and in many people's

[01:24:01] [SPEAKER_00]: minds um they kind of link the two just in terms of temporal proximity um we have not ever

[01:24:09] [SPEAKER_00]: covered flora i think at times we were reluctant because people were always i felt linking that to

[01:24:19] [SPEAKER_00]: delphi in a big way without really any fact behind it like it was more of like an assumption because

[01:24:25] [SPEAKER_00]: they were close together in time and location that these must be linked even though i felt they

[01:24:30] [SPEAKER_00]: always look different i think we've always intended to cover it though on its own merits because

[01:24:35] [SPEAKER_00]: those kids deserve justice as well and um it's frustrating that it feels like there hasn't really

[01:24:42] [SPEAKER_00]: been a lot of information that's come out about it in the years since it's like that was a problem

[01:24:48] [SPEAKER_00]: in delphi but it remains a problem in flora so i feel like that would certainly be something we

[01:24:54] [SPEAKER_00]: were interested in covering and um we'd have to think about a way to do it in order to

[01:25:00] [SPEAKER_00]: add value we don't want to do anything that's just covering a case just to cover it you know

[01:25:06] [SPEAKER_00]: we want to like move the story forward or add an expert voice or do something with it so we're

[01:25:14] [SPEAKER_00]: not just like rehashing Wikipedia or whatnot um so we'd have to put some thought into that but

[01:25:20] [SPEAKER_00]: i feel like we could we could do that in flora but yeah great question thank you for asking it

[01:25:26] [SPEAKER_00]: one lady noted that we have done a lot of coverage of heavy topics and asked us what we do to take

[01:25:31] [SPEAKER_00]: care of ourselves what self-care that's such a nice question thank you so much so the question is we

[01:25:38] [SPEAKER_00]: cover a lot of hairpikates is how do we do self-care what do we do kevin uh it's difficult

[01:25:44] [SPEAKER_01]: sometimes because for one thing we're married and so when you're married and you're working

[01:25:50] [SPEAKER_01]: with someone it's hard to like oh at five o'clock okay let's not talk about murder anymore

[01:25:56] [SPEAKER_01]: because these cases are important to us so we tend to talk about them a lot and think about them a

[01:26:01] [SPEAKER_01]: lot and sometimes that can't take a toll on your mental health so that's something we struggle with

[01:26:07] [SPEAKER_00]: frankly yeah it's it's i love working with this guy he's amazing to work with it's just fun

[01:26:12] [SPEAKER_00]: working with you but that is the one downside of working with your spouse you can't really

[01:26:16] [SPEAKER_00]: escape work so we've set boundaries with ourselves and with others you know like you

[01:26:21] [SPEAKER_00]: know we don't we try not to drag in true crime talk after hours it's rare that we watch true

[01:26:29] [SPEAKER_00]: crime documentaries for fun anymore and we still can do it and enjoy it for a work project but it's

[01:26:36] [SPEAKER_00]: just like the more we distance ourselves um and then we just kind of do a lot of silly stuff like

[01:26:42] [SPEAKER_00]: the other day this is so dumb i'm sorry i'm gonna tell them we went to jennings county indiana

[01:26:48] [SPEAKER_00]: and it was um like we just wanted to randomly see um like uh richard nixon's mom was born there and

[01:26:58] [SPEAKER_00]: they had like a placard and they had all this weird historical stuff where they're like i wanted to see

[01:27:02] [SPEAKER_00]: it i wanted to see that and i also wanted to see that like the confederates in the civil war

[01:27:07] [SPEAKER_00]: like raided up into jennings county and i just thought that was so wild and like why are people

[01:27:12] [SPEAKER_00]: not talking about this so so we went to the farm where they kind of like you know captain i think

[01:27:20] [SPEAKER_00]: it was like it was a i want to say captain morgan but that doesn't sound right that is right okay

[01:27:25] [SPEAKER_00]: thank you i'm like yeah before he got into the the booze business he was doing this and he

[01:27:30] [SPEAKER_00]: he you know it was just wild it was so we do stuff like that where we kind of go on little

[01:27:34] [SPEAKER_00]: jaunts sometimes just to see historical stuff for fun and try not to think about crime

[01:27:40] [SPEAKER_00]: try to have date nights and stuff date nights yeah that's fun and then we kind of like

[01:27:45] [SPEAKER_00]: play around with our dogs sometimes so like stuff like that but um but yeah we do it full time so it's

[01:27:53] [SPEAKER_00]: it's like in a way that's made it easier because when you know i was working a full time job and

[01:27:59] [SPEAKER_00]: doing it it became like something we did in our free time and now it's like we're able to

[01:28:04] [SPEAKER_01]: dedicate our time to it so that's nice and i guess another thing we do is we sometimes will uh

[01:28:11] [SPEAKER_01]: if we want to talk to someone interesting uh if we can imagine there's any kind of a connection at

[01:28:16] [SPEAKER_01]: all we will have just a fun conversation with someone like earlier today like for the podcast

[01:28:22] [SPEAKER_01]: not just like randomly in the street uh i really like the movie star trek too and the guy who

[01:28:29] [SPEAKER_01]: directed it just did a Sherlock Holmes novel and so that that's kind of a murder thing

[01:28:34] [SPEAKER_00]: so we talked to him this morning we do uh yeah we kind of try to find angles where it's like

[01:28:39] [SPEAKER_00]: you know and that's also to lighten up the show a little bit too because we want people to you

[01:28:43] [SPEAKER_00]: know hear the the bad stuff but maybe kind of see some areas where true crime can be like an

[01:28:48] [SPEAKER_00]: inspiration or or something where you're kind of using it to ask interesting creative questions

[01:28:55] [SPEAKER_00]: a gentleman asked us in a hilariously blunt fashion where do you live

[01:28:59] [SPEAKER_00]: what

[01:29:02] [SPEAKER_01]: if anything happens to us we need to know i'm just kidding we live in uh the indianapolis area

[01:29:09] [SPEAKER_01]: she is a native of the new york city area i i was born in columbus indiana so he's a hoosier

[01:29:17] [SPEAKER_00]: and i'm what one woman i heard once referred to as a new year so i don't know but um i really

[01:29:24] [SPEAKER_00]: love indiana i think it's terrific and i really enjoyed moving here sometimes people like

[01:29:29] [SPEAKER_00]: i'm from the new york city suburbs so everyone's like oh you know it's not the big city and it's

[01:29:33] [SPEAKER_00]: like i didn't i live in the suburbs like it was you know this is this is great new york city

[01:29:38] [SPEAKER_00]: is where we actually started the podcast so we were in brooklyn um and brooklyn is amazing

[01:29:44] [SPEAKER_00]: new york city's amazing uh love it there it's just it's kind of not really our speed it's

[01:29:49] [SPEAKER_00]: a lot to deal with constantly um and so you know moving to indiana i think was

[01:29:54] [SPEAKER_00]: was a great choice the same gentleman asked if we worked out of our home or an office

[01:30:00] [SPEAKER_00]: we uh so the question is do we have an office or do we work out of home we work out of our home

[01:30:04] [SPEAKER_00]: one of the nice things about podcasting is that there's not a lot of overhead we don't need

[01:30:08] [SPEAKER_00]: to rent a printing press or like a big radio tower we can just kind of do it so we have a designated

[01:30:13] [SPEAKER_00]: office in our home so we can kind of make that our workspace and um kind of work there and then

[01:30:20] [SPEAKER_01]: put it away at the end of the day if you want to interview people at like other locations usually

[01:30:25] [SPEAKER_01]: you can find like a library or something they'll let you use a room so it's really a little cost

[01:30:31] [SPEAKER_00]: thing yeah moving yeah interview people in person if someone's you know coming by we don't want to

[01:30:36] [SPEAKER_00]: be like come to our house like what like this is this is weird so we just like say meet us at

[01:30:43] [SPEAKER_00]: like you know we'll come to you and we'll meet at the local library we'll you know

[01:30:47] [SPEAKER_00]: rent a room for a little bit and then that's usually the way we do it some libraries even

[01:30:51] [SPEAKER_00]: have a little podcast studio so that's kind of nice you know we are using one of those if the

[01:30:55] [SPEAKER_00]: sound quality sounds suspiciously good oh yes we have a we have so the question is like we have

[01:31:02] [SPEAKER_00]: a book well we have several bookcases yeah we don't want them to we don't want anyone to die

[01:31:07] [SPEAKER_00]: under our bookcase except for us i think we need to bear the responsibility of that and uh

[01:31:12] [SPEAKER_00]: you know things could get really things could get dangerous fast a gentleman asked us if we would

[01:31:18] [SPEAKER_00]: ever do an event like this again the question is are we going to do this again maybe you'll see

[01:31:22] [SPEAKER_00]: it like people liked it if we get a bunch of angry emails right after this probably not

[01:31:29] [SPEAKER_00]: i went there and i was like what the heck are these people talking about for an hour

[01:31:34] [SPEAKER_00]: much longer um but no yeah we we this was really fun you guys were really nice and you asked

[01:31:40] [SPEAKER_00]: great questions and so thank you all so much for coming we were really scared we were like over in the

[01:31:44] [SPEAKER_00]: wings they're like oh my god what did we sign up for why did we do this we're so awkward this was a

[01:31:49] [SPEAKER_00]: bad idea and and it's just been really fun so we had a real blast and we hope you guys did too and

[01:31:54] [SPEAKER_00]: just thank you so much for coming and um we'll be a long distance yeah i really i that means a

[01:32:07] [SPEAKER_00]: lot to us because like seriously like you could be doing really anything on a on a what is it

[01:32:12] [SPEAKER_00]: saturday what day is it oh my gosh um saturday night but you you came here and spent it with us so

[01:32:17] [SPEAKER_00]: that means a lot we're gonna be hanging out after this a little bit we're gonna be you know we have

[01:32:22] [SPEAKER_00]: shirts you can buy them you don't have to buy them like don't worry about that come over and say hi to

[01:32:27] [SPEAKER_00]: us we can take a picture we can just chat like don't you know don't be like oh i i don't want to

[01:32:32] [SPEAKER_00]: buy a shirt so i'm gonna get roped into it we're not gonna hypnotize you and make you buy a

[01:32:36] [SPEAKER_00]: shirt kevin may try but i'll try to stop him but no i mean seriously like this has just been

[01:32:44] [SPEAKER_00]: really fun and we just again want to thank the clc and all the wonderful people there and just

[01:32:48] [SPEAKER_00]: all you wonderful people for coming and uh spending this time with us thanks to the recording come out

[01:32:59] [SPEAKER_01]: okay that's the big question i think so thanks so much for listening to the murder sheet if you

[01:33:08] [SPEAKER_01]: have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover please email us at murder sheet at gmail.com

[01:33:16] [SPEAKER_01]: if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime please report it to the appropriate

[01:33:22] [SPEAKER_00]: authorities if you're interested in joining our patreon that's available at www.patreon.com

[01:33:32] [SPEAKER_00]: slash murder sheet if you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests you can do so at

[01:33:40] [SPEAKER_00]: buy me a coffee dot com slash murder sheet we very much appreciate any support special thanks to

[01:33:49] [SPEAKER_01]: kevin tyler greenlee who composed the music for the murder sheet and who you can find on the

[01:33:54] [SPEAKER_00]: web at kevin tg.com if you're looking to talk with other listeners about a case we've covered

[01:34:02] [SPEAKER_00]: you can join the murder sheet discussion group on facebook we mostly focus our time on research

[01:34:08] [SPEAKER_00]: and reporting so we're not on social media much we do try to check our email account

[01:34:14] [SPEAKER_00]: but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages thanks again for listening