Spin Docs: You Can See Everything (2026) : Nathan Fielder Takes on Elizabeth Holmes

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[00:01:41] [SPEAKER_00] Hi, I'm Kevin and today we are going to be discussing the new Nathan Fielder documentary, You Can See Everything. So, Anya and I saw this on Thursday, which I guess was technically the day before it came out. And that's because we are such big fans of Nathan Fielder.

[00:01:58] [SPEAKER_01] That's true.

[00:02:00] [SPEAKER_00] I'll say that right at the top. And if you want to, if you leave the theater wanting to see more Nathan Fielder, you've got to check out season two of the rehearsal.

[00:02:09] [SPEAKER_01] I think check out the rehearsal in general. Check out, I mean, Nathan for you is where he, where I first saw him. I think, I don't feel like I'm exaggerating when I say this, but I feel like he is one of the greatest artists who, in our society right now. I love this man.

[00:02:30] [SPEAKER_00] Season two of the rehearsal should be your next stop. Because that, I think you always describe that as a transcendent moment of television.

[00:02:36] [SPEAKER_01] It's transcendent. I love it so much.

[00:02:39] [SPEAKER_00] So, I think a lot of the charm of this movie, for lack of a better word, comes from some of the surprises in it. And I'd love to talk about some of those surprises with you, and maybe we'll do that in a couple of weeks, when more of you have had an opportunity to see it. At this point, this is a three-hour film. I think most of the big twists and surprises and spoiler-rific material comes in the second half.

[00:03:06] [SPEAKER_00] So, what we're going to do is we're going to have a discussion primarily about the first half of the film. And not really any big surprises in there. We're going to talk about that. We're not going to talk about the second half of the film at this time.

[00:03:22] [SPEAKER_01] Yes. So, I would recommend, if you want to see the film, maybe hold off on listening to this. Because I don't think we're talking about a lot of major spoilers. But if you want to go in totally cold, then hold off. Listen to this after you watch it. And if you're undecided, I don't think we're going to be spoiling anything big for you.

[00:03:43] [SPEAKER_00] I think go ahead and listen. Because we're not going to reveal anything big. The big stuff is all in the second half. Yeah.

[00:03:51] [SPEAKER_01] I liked going in totally cold, though, because I had no idea what to expect. And it was a wild ride.

[00:03:57] [SPEAKER_00] So, let's get to it.

[00:03:59] [SPEAKER_01] My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist.

[00:04:02] [SPEAKER_00] And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney. And this is The Murder Sheet. We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases. We're The Murder Sheet. And this is Spindox. You Can See Everything. 2026. Nathan Fielder takes on Elizabeth Holmes.

[00:05:06] [SPEAKER_00] So, Anya, as we were saying, we saw this on the night before its official opening because we're Nathan Fielder fans would probably see anything. He does. So, I didn't see this movie because I had a deep and abiding interest in Elizabeth Holmes. And, frankly, prior to seeing this movie, I knew very little about the case. I think you walked into it with a bit more background information than I did. Is that correct?

[00:05:34] [SPEAKER_01] That is correct. I read the 2018 book, I mean, I say crime nonfiction. It's maybe business crime nonfiction, white collar crime nonfiction, called Bad Blood, Secrets and Lies in a Silicon Valley Startup. That was by John Kerry Rue. He is a really widely respected journalist. At the time, he started reporting on Elizabeth Holmes and the Theranos saga. He was a reporter for the Wall Street Journal.

[00:06:01] [SPEAKER_01] And I just thought his book was a real feat of business journalism and investigative journalism where it was getting into all of the chaos and wrongdoing of this startup that was so widely touted for many years that was kind of considered, you know, this really hot startup that was going to change the world.

[00:06:27] [SPEAKER_01] I think we should probably get into a little bit of this background before we dive in.

[00:06:32] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, absolutely. But before we do, I want to say usually when you see a documentary, a three-hour documentary about a particular topic, you might expect it to go heavily into the background. And that's not what this movie is. That's not what it's designed to do. It's a great movie. It's not like a Netflix-type documentary that just goes and tells you everything.

[00:06:57] [SPEAKER_01] Is it a true crime documentary in your mind?

[00:06:59] [SPEAKER_00] I think it is. And I think it's really devoted to trying to figure out who this woman, Elizabeth Holmes, is. Is she a manipulative person? Is she a victim? Is she a liar? And that's what it's focused on. Let's try to figure out who this person is.

[00:07:19] [SPEAKER_00] And it doesn't really get into the nitty-gritty of some of the actual crimes that she was charged with and crimes she was ultimately convicted of.

[00:07:29] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, if you want that, I've watched other documentaries. I believe in 2019 there was The Inventor, Out for Blood in Silicon Valley, which was directed by Alex Gibney. And I believe Carrie Rue appeared in that. And then there was also The Dropout, a 2020 documentary in that same year that came out where they looked into it.

[00:07:48] [SPEAKER_00] Was The Dropout a documentary or a docudrama?

[00:07:50] [SPEAKER_01] Well, Hulu did a docudrama also called The Dropout. And I believe there was also a podcast called The Dropout. Everyone was having fun with this pun because it's get it? She dropped out of Stanford University. Also, the Theranos technology was supposed to just take a drop of your blood and test all these different issues. But they're different projects. I mean, I think they're interrelated.

[00:08:15] [SPEAKER_01] But they were more standard documentary crime documentaries. Because what we're talking about is crime. It's not murder, which is what we normally cover. But it's a lot about the legal system and crime as far as, you know, what is a crime? When does making big claims for your startup cross over into fraud is a big question.

[00:08:37] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, it's also interesting because if someone mugs you and steals a few hundred dollars from your wallet, that's like a violent crime. But if someone defrauds an investor out of $100 million, that's like a white-collar crime. And that's considered very different, even though in some ways the cost of the crime is much higher.

[00:08:56] [SPEAKER_01] The cost of the crime is higher, but yeah. But you can also understand why people are more scared of violent crime that might physically or, you know, harm you or kill you at the same time.

[00:09:05] [SPEAKER_00] So medical care in this country, very, very expensive, often very time-consuming. Elizabeth Holmes, she's involved with this company. Theranos says, guess what? But I have this new technology where I can just take like a little prick of blood from your finger and I can do virtually any blood test imaginable. I can do multiple blood tests, diagnostic tests.

[00:09:33] [SPEAKER_00] This would be so much faster than current technology. It'll be cheaper than current technology. It'll just be easier for everybody all around. It's wonderful technology. It's being used on the battlefields of the world by the Department of Defense. It's going to be going into places like Walgreens. Give me your money. Get in on this. Is that basically the gist of her claims?

[00:09:59] [SPEAKER_01] That is. And I will say, just to give some context, this started all the way back in 2003. So it was going on for a while. But I think it became more to the public's attention when the valuation of the company started, you know, being, going up and up and up. And people are seeing this is like worth $92 million. And that was more in the teens, 2010, 2011.

[00:10:23] [SPEAKER_00] But again, it's all based on these claims. And they also make extravagant claims like, oh, we're going to be making $100 million next year. Even more than that the year after. No basis for these claims. I think the year they said they were going to make $100 million the next year, that year they only made about $100,000.

[00:10:41] [SPEAKER_01] They got Walgreens involved. They got Walgreens.

[00:10:45] [SPEAKER_00] They got Walgreens involved by making fraudulent claims. I don't mean to get ahead of myself. But basically, this was all a lie. This technology did not exist. It was technology that if you want to be generous, could potentially exist. Like if I say, Anya, I have a company that sells flying cars. Maybe in the future, some of my ideas could be used.

[00:11:13] [SPEAKER_00] And at the end of the day, if everything goes well and I'm kissed by the gods and fate, maybe my company will in fact be making flying cars. But we're not close to that now. It's not really on the table now. So basically, it's a lie. It's fraudulent. And at the time, they were convincing companies like Walgreens to start putting this stuff in their stores and say, oh, look, look, investors, come and go through my labs.

[00:11:41] [SPEAKER_00] And they'd have a lot of examples of their machines in the labs. And the implication would be, are there in those machines you're looking at that we'll be putting into your stores? These are the machines that will be doing the testing. And those machines were not capable of doing that testing. They would take people's blood and they would send it out to third parties to analyze it. So it was all a fraud. And they were claiming, oh, we're doing this stuff on the battlefields with the Department of Defense.

[00:12:11] [SPEAKER_00] No, that wasn't happening. It was all lies. Is that fair to say?

[00:12:16] [SPEAKER_01] And they spoofed the Walgreens Boots Alliance. That's the parent company. Yeah, that was okay. Going into it, having read Bad Blood, going into it, having read Mr. Carey Root's reporting, and sort of piecing together through that way, and some of these documentaries that were more informative about the crime, it's safe to say I had opinions on Ms. Holmes' culpability around this.

[00:12:45] [SPEAKER_01] And those were largely that she was guilty of lying to people and therefore committing fraud with her company. So that's how I went into this, at least.

[00:13:03] [SPEAKER_00] I generally have an opinion that if someone is convicted of a crime, as she was, and if it's been litigated through appeals and the conviction stands, they're probably guilty. I didn't really have, I didn't even have the factual knowledge I just shared with you a moment ago. I had a vague recollection of a few headlines. In the movie, it's kind of framed like, oh, what she did was she made this one statement

[00:13:30] [SPEAKER_00] that's kind of ambiguous, and if you look at it one way, it's a lie, but if you kind of look at it a slightly different way, maybe it's not a lie. But that's an interesting discussion in a great movie about the meaning of truth, and it can lead to some interesting discussions, which hopefully we might have later, about how different people perceive things. But it is important to note that the things she was charged with and ultimately convicted of go well beyond making one ambiguous comment.

[00:14:01] [SPEAKER_00] She was deceiving people. She was saying, we're going to be making all this money. At the time when Walgreens started having serious doubts and saying, well, maybe we don't want this, she was still telling people, we have this great relationship with Walgreens, and that was getting more people to invest. So when you are lying to investors and getting them to give you money based on those lies, you are defrauding them in a very real way, you are stealing from them.

[00:14:29] [SPEAKER_00] And I think the SEC in one of their filings says this ultimately also has the effect of potentially stalling innovation and competition in the medical field, because if people who are potentially interested in investing in technology read about what Elizabeth Holmes did, they might think, well, maybe everybody in this field is a faker. I'm not going to invest.

[00:14:58] [SPEAKER_00] I'm scared from investing because of this.

[00:15:01] [SPEAKER_01] Yes. Because you're told these machines are doing this, this, and that, and they're just factually not.

[00:15:09] [SPEAKER_00] Yes, and so if I, as an investor, see, oh, the people who invested in this got taken advantage of, I'm not going to invest in anything related to the medical field, because maybe I'll be taken advantage of too.

[00:15:21] [SPEAKER_01] I know one thing when this was all imploding that was discussed widely was Silicon Valley, which, of course, this is, Theranos was very much a part of these kind of big tech companies, tech startups, things that are sort of saying we're going to turn this industry on its head and revolutionize it. And she was very much in conversation with all that. She really was documented to have very much admired Steve Jobs.

[00:15:48] [SPEAKER_01] She described the Theranos device as almost like a, I think like an iPod or something of medical testing, like she's using that language. But it was this mindset of fake it till you make it, kind of move fast and break things. This kind of culture of maybe some deception going in where maybe the technology's not quite ready

[00:16:15] [SPEAKER_01] and you're just kind of stringing people along until it is. And some of the kind of inherent, some might say dishonesty, I might say like level of entitlement that comes with this sort of like, well, we're the harbingers of the future so we can kind of do whatever we want. And it's not fraud if we do it because we have good intentions and we're going to change the world and the limitations of that kind of thinking. We love looking good and saving money. So we love our wonderful sponsor, Quince.

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[00:21:30] [SPEAKER_00] In August 2015, Holmes met with a potential investor, during which she provided Theranos' financial results for fiscal year 2014. These financials showed 2014 net revenues of $108 million and 2015 and 2016 net revenue projections of $240 million and $750 million, respectively. But Theranos' actual financial performance bore no resemblance to the financial information Holmes shared with investors.

[00:21:58] [SPEAKER_00] Theranos recorded little more than $100,000 in revenue in 2014 and was nowhere near generating $100 million in revenue by the end of 2014. End quote. So she is, that's not an example of a person looking at things a little bit differently than you or I. That's out and out fraud. That's out and out lying.

[00:22:21] [SPEAKER_01] Numbers don't lie.

[00:22:22] [SPEAKER_00] Yes. And maybe in my mind, I sincerely believe that I am this close to a breakthrough on flying cars. Maybe I sincerely believe all I need is just a little bit more investment. But if I lie to get that investment, I'm still committing fraud. And as you say, there is this culture of fake it till you make it, you know, puff yourself up, exaggerate.

[00:22:51] [SPEAKER_00] And if you say, well, everybody else does it, that's not really a defense, though. If you're a parent, you probably had a child come to you and say, oh, you can't punish me because everybody else in the neighborhood does it. That's not a defense. You're not going to say, oh, oh, oh, little Johnny. If everybody else does it, well, you're off the hook. That's not the way it works in the real world.

[00:23:13] [SPEAKER_01] No. As someone with three younger siblings, I can confirm that that doesn't fly with parents for the most part. And that doesn't – it shouldn't fly with the law. I think to me if someone's saying, well, then we probably have to prosecute more people in Silicon Valley. I say don't threaten me with a good time. Good. You know, if they're committing fraud too, then that should be – but I also think there's probably – I don't want to say a gray area,

[00:23:38] [SPEAKER_01] but there's probably areas where people are really – can get away with being somewhat dishonest in the media, but, like, not actively lying to their investors. Like, touting stuff as, like, we could do this and that, and it's going to be amazing. And then behind the scenes, you're like, okay, well, here's the reality. Like, I would say that's kind of sketchy, and I don't like people lying to the public, but, like, lying to your investors to get money seems to be the mechanism where things are really going wrong here for her.

[00:24:08] [SPEAKER_00] Would this, in your mind, be in any way comparable? Most of us haven't made presentations to investors to get millions of dollars. No, I've never done that, no. That's not something most of us have done. I'm guessing some people within the sound of my voice may have, when you're looking for a job and preparing a resume, might have been a little bit of resume puffing. Is that similar to this in your mind?

[00:24:31] [SPEAKER_01] No, it's actively – this is because – I mean, when you look at – she's, like, lying about things happening, about this defense department work that never happened, and that was not true. She's talking about numbers that are not accurate. To me, it's more like saying, hey, guys, here's my resume. Yeah, I was a NASA astronaut. Pretty cool. And I wasn't at all. It's not me saying, I worked at NASA and kind of making that sound really cool,

[00:24:58] [SPEAKER_01] and it turns out I was there, but in some kind of humdrum job as a custodian. And it's like I was – it's more wholesale than – and that's why – and we can talk more about the film and the documentary. I think I loved it, but one thing I would be a little concerned about is people are going to walk away saying, wow, this woman went to federal prison over making one kind of ambiguous statement. I hope that never happens to me. And the reality is that there's –

[00:25:27] [SPEAKER_00] The reality is different.

[00:25:28] [SPEAKER_01] The reality is – and listen, I understand why the documentary did that because it makes it kind of a tense thing of, like, if we can kind of figure out – like, if we can interpret this one way or another, maybe we can get to the bottom of it. Like, it keeps it simplified rather than being like, let's look into all the instances of fraud. From a storytelling perspective, it's brilliant. But from the perspective of, like, legally what happened and what was she on the hook for, it's much worse than that.

[00:25:56] [SPEAKER_00] Yes. And also in the film, she acts like she isn't really someone who cares about money, but when you look at her life during the Theranos era, she was somebody who really, really enjoyed a wealthy lifestyle. So basically, again, I just want to say this again, she claimed that her company had a product that didn't really exist. She oversold it, and she built people out of a lot of money.

[00:26:23] [SPEAKER_00] So a lot of evidence for that, and that evidence goes beyond the one statement that is highlighted in the documentary. Is that basically the factual basis we need for this before we move into a discussion of the documentary, or do you feel there's more detail we need to go into?

[00:26:40] [SPEAKER_01] I think one detail that we should go into a little bit, because this underscores everything happening in the documentary, is that in 2018, after a multi-year investigation from the United States Attorney's Office for the Northern District of California, they had a federal grand jury indict her, and her kind of partner in crime, Sunny Balwani, on wire fraud. I think it were nine counts of wire fraud, two counts of conspiracy to commit wire fraud.

[00:27:11] [SPEAKER_01] And the trial ultimately happened, I believe it started January 3rd, 2022. It went on for a while. It was highly covered. And a jury ultimately found her guilty on four of seven counts all around defrauding the investors. So three counts of wire fraud, one count of conspiracy to commit wire fraud. And she was found not guilty on four counts that were all about defrauding patients.

[00:27:41] [SPEAKER_01] And then there was a no verdict on three additional counts of wire fraud against investors. They did a mistrial on those counts, and the prosecution ultimately dismissed them. So, but she was actually still free on bail at that point. So it's not like she went to prison immediately. I just think that's important to note. She got, they got a conviction on some of those charges. Jury didn't agree on others and acquitted her on a few.

[00:28:09] [SPEAKER_01] So it was kind of a mixed verdict, but ultimately it added up to, they felt she defrauded investors based on the evidence presented.

[00:28:17] [SPEAKER_00] And then she's sentenced to prison for roughly a decade.

[00:28:21] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, I think it was like 11 years or something.

[00:28:24] [SPEAKER_00] And she's a woman who had resources, so it's extensively litigated and appealed. But as the movie opened, she's about, I believe, 34 days away from going to prison for roughly a decade. She's just had a new child, and she has another young child, both with her relatively new partner, Billy Evans.

[00:28:47] [SPEAKER_01] Yes, her new husband.

[00:28:50] [SPEAKER_00] Well, it's not even clear it's her husband.

[00:28:53] [SPEAKER_01] Oh, okay. I thought they were married. Well.

[00:28:55] [SPEAKER_00] Sometimes they refer to each other as being married. Other times it's not so clear. And even that is a good example of the hall of mirrors you walk into when you start reading about Elizabeth Holmes in general, or more specifically, when you go and watch this movie. Because it's always unclear what exactly the truth is. And it's also always unclear whether or not the person presenting the truth to us is a reliable narrator.

[00:29:26] [SPEAKER_00] Are we seeing the whole story? Are there things we're not seeing? Is this story we're being told somehow influenced by one of the biases or perceptions of the person telling the story?

[00:29:39] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of like, it's fascinating because it really, it's like a commentary on just trying to tell a true story from the jump, you know, and just like what goes into that and the biases that can form in that, even if you're trying to be as objective as possible.

[00:29:59] [SPEAKER_00] So do you want to start talking about the movie or the more stuff about the background that we feel people should know?

[00:30:03] [SPEAKER_01] No, I think, I mean, I guess it's important to emphasize just that case. And I think we did that going into this. I think, again, my fear is that some people walk away being like, oh no, she's just kind of quirky, you know? And like, that's why she went to prison. They're rounding up all the quirky girls. You know, I would worry about that. But hopefully people don't take that away from it.

[00:30:27] [SPEAKER_00] So the first half of the movie, which is what we will be focusing on, is Miss Holmes and her companion, husband, whatever you want to call him, Mr. Evans, give Nathan Fielder's film crew basically 24-7 access to them in the month before she is sent to prison.

[00:30:50] [SPEAKER_00] And I think one thing that is interesting, and this is kind of a secret I'll share with you all.

[00:30:58] [SPEAKER_01] What are you going to say?

[00:30:59] [SPEAKER_00] When you spend time with someone, you start to, if not like them, you start to understand them and see them from a more human point of view. And if you spend time with someone accused of a crime, you will get to understand and like them.

[00:31:20] [SPEAKER_00] No matter who you spend time with, you're going to start seeing human qualities in them that to some degree or another you will relate to. I think that's one reason why people in the Innocence Project for Innocence, if they spend time with somebody accused of a crime, they're going to start liking them and being sympathetic to them. So just the fact that we are spending this time with her makes her seem more sympathetic in my view.

[00:31:50] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, absolutely. You see things like her care for her small children. That's very humanizing. Being a new mother, taking care of the babies. That's like a vulnerable and very highly personal, highly charged thing to see a woman interacting with her babies

[00:32:14] [SPEAKER_01] and clearly, you know, loving them and having that connection with them and taking care of them. And then knowing that there's a limit on how long she's going to be able to do that. I think that's highly humanizing of anyone. Anyone who's been a parent, anyone who wants to be a parent at some point, I think understands how fraught that would be and how agonizing that would be to be taken away from them.

[00:32:41] [SPEAKER_00] How can you not feel sympathy for that? Even if you are aware this is a woman that's committed this fraud. Yeah. You feel bad for her.

[00:32:51] [SPEAKER_01] I felt tremendous sympathy for her over that. I felt that was very sad to me that not only she is going to not have her babies, but the babies aren't going to have the access to their mother that they would have had otherwise. Right? Like that very raw, very human. Yes. It's sad.

[00:33:12] [SPEAKER_00] Why do you suppose they agreed to give him this kind of access?

[00:33:17] [SPEAKER_01] Because of what we just said.

[00:33:19] [SPEAKER_00] To make them seem more human?

[00:33:20] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, of course.

[00:33:22] [SPEAKER_00] Fielder also pretty early on points out, did you choose me because I don't understand science?

[00:33:28] [SPEAKER_01] That too.

[00:33:30] [SPEAKER_00] Because if you get somebody in there who really thoroughly understands science, then they probably have more of a background to really be able to puncture some of the holes in her story and her claims. But if you just pull a regular Joe off the street, maybe it's easier to take them in.

[00:33:50] [SPEAKER_01] He's not a regular Joe though. I mean, he's one of the, I think, one of my favorite interviewers ever, and we could talk about that.

[00:33:57] [SPEAKER_00] Let's talk about it. What makes him such a good interviewer in your mind?

[00:34:00] [SPEAKER_01] He is not afraid to be quietly confrontational and utilize silence to let, he's the kind of textbook example. You know, you're often told when you're a baby journalist, don't fill in the silence. Let the other person fill in the silence because they might say something very interesting or revealing. And he, but of course it's one thing to say that. It's another thing to be standing in front of someone silently waiting for them to, but he just has no compunctions about doing that.

[00:34:29] [SPEAKER_01] And it leads to some amazing exchanges where he just lets people talk. Like that's his superpower. And like just people say the weirdest stuff to him. I think, yeah, I think that. And I mean, one thing I felt was good was like, he continuously keeps revisiting the question of, are you honest? Did you do fraud? How could you have thought that this was okay? He doesn't let things go. When I think one of the biggest mistakes that I see,

[00:35:00] [SPEAKER_01] because in some ways this is playing with, in my mind at least, because obviously this is the space we live in, but it's playing with these like wrongful conviction podcasts and documentaries, like where there's like this like quest to find the truth. And it oftentimes in those, at best, they'll ask the person who is purporting to be wrongfully convicted, like maybe a couple of tough questions at most, and then back off. But then there's not always this follow-up when they're hearing contradictions.

[00:35:30] [SPEAKER_01] Like, you know, they'll, oh, well, I've done my due diligence by asking that. But then they'll hear something that maybe they should know is that's a bit of a red flag or that's a bit of a contradiction. And there's no revisiting that because it's awkward. Because it's awkward to be like, hey, what you said didn't make any sense. Or, hey, what you said seemed really misogynistic and toxic. Or that kind of makes me think of this. It's awkward. And he's not afraid to be really, really awkward and keep bringing stuff up and kind of keep going at them on it.

[00:35:57] [SPEAKER_01] And I think that is to his credit.

[00:36:02] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. I think a lot of people, not only in the true crime space, but journalists as a whole could take some lessons from him and how he does this.

[00:36:10] [SPEAKER_01] I completely agree. In any genre, in any type of journalism, whether it's like, you know, cultural, political, like any, like people should be, if something doesn't get answered, it really struck me. One of the first interactions that we see between them, he asks her a tough question and she starts crying. Interesting, right? You know, when you're crying, you know, and you're upset, maybe you can't be expected to answer that tough question. But he doesn't let it go like the next day or whatever,

[00:36:40] [SPEAKER_01] the next interaction we're seeing, it's still coming up. And it's, again, his response to that is noted to me and also her response. Going to prison for a decade, sometimes I think in true crime, we see that as a slap on the wrist, but I don't think it is. I think that's a really serious life-altering sentence.

[00:37:07] [SPEAKER_01] And, you know, being emotional kind of makes sense. But at the same time, if someone is asking you about something, crying and reacting in that way is a way to shut down the conversation.

[00:37:17] [SPEAKER_00] Or at the very least, it's a way to give you a few moments to think of a good answer.

[00:37:21] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. It's, you can see it as someone being so sincere and you can see it as a very highly skilled manipulative tactic. And I see it as that, frankly. That's my take.

[00:37:35] [SPEAKER_00] I want to talk about a moment that really stood out to me. A lot of this first half revolves around her saying, well, these statements I made, the way I interpreted them, I saw them as being completely true. Maybe other people interpreted them as other ways. And so he gets the idea to show her an old Abbott and Costello comedy routine called Who's On First.

[00:38:04] [SPEAKER_00] Maybe you guys aren't familiar with this comedy routine. The way I describe it, it's not going to sound terribly funny. And really, to be honest, we're all adults here. It's not that funny.

[00:38:16] [SPEAKER_01] Kevin is not an Abin Costello fan.

[00:38:19] [SPEAKER_00] So let's, and that comes from upstairs. I have their complete movies and TV shows on DVD.

[00:38:25] [SPEAKER_01] You are an obsessive Abin Costello DVD collector for some reason, but you don't like their work.

[00:38:34] [SPEAKER_00] So the routine revolves.

[00:38:36] [SPEAKER_01] This is my husband.

[00:38:37] [SPEAKER_00] The routine revolves around the idea there is a baseball team where, for some reason, the players have been given nicknames that are basically pronouns or sentences. Like one player's nickname is I don't know. Another player's name, the first baseman, his nickname is HWO. Who? So you can imagine if someone is trying to get the name of the first baseman,

[00:39:06] [SPEAKER_00] and you're saying, oh, the first baseman is HWO, that person may think, oh, that person is asking me the interrogative. Who? Asking for someone's identity and not giving me the person's name. And so the fact that this ball club has these unusual nicknames quickly creates a confusing situation of misunderstanding and anger between these two men, Abin and Costello.

[00:39:31] [SPEAKER_00] And so the humor, such as it is, comes from the idea that we know what the confusion is, and these two guys just aren't really understanding each other. And that's kind of the issue around whether or not Ms. Holmes has told the truth or not. Maybe the whole world is Abbott to her Costello, and she thinks she's saying one thing clearly, and we're just not understanding it.

[00:39:56] [SPEAKER_00] And he shows her this clip, and she, like, laughs politely and says, oh, yes, that was very funny. So awkward. But then when he asks her why it's funny, what's the joke, she didn't catch on to what I've just told you, namely that the ball player's name is actually HWO. So she didn't pick up that it was a comedy bit about misunderstanding. And Billie, who is there, says, yes, this is what I'm saying about her. She just looks at things so differently.

[00:40:26] [SPEAKER_00] She's not even aware of this disconnect people have and these communication problems people have. What is your take on that?

[00:40:35] [SPEAKER_01] I've met people like that who, in my experience, I might share something that's supposed to be humorous with them, and they're just like, I don't get this at all. And then you have to kind of explain what the humor is. They might have a hard time with sarcasm, right? Well, he said this. Well, it's funny because he's being sarcastic. Oh, okay, now I get it.

[00:41:00] [SPEAKER_01] They might have a hard time with deadpan humor or, like, hidden intentions or a mistaken belief, like the Abbott and Costello routine. And it's like you have to kind of put yourself in someone else's mind almost to see the humor in it. And it's not that they don't – it's not like necessarily – they don't find it funny, but they don't find it funny because they don't understand it.

[00:41:28] [SPEAKER_01] And I've met people like that, and it's – I mean, and none of them are liars. You know, it's just – that's just – not everyone's going to interpret – so I agree with – on some level, like, I totally agree with that assessment. Like, her mind might work differently, and that doesn't make her a bad person. I don't think her mind works so differently that she's giving people incorrect financial information. I mean, that's where the divide is.

[00:41:55] [SPEAKER_01] If she truly went to prison based on one ambiguous statement, then I'd be like, well –

[00:42:00] [SPEAKER_00] That would be an outrage.

[00:42:01] [SPEAKER_01] That would be – first of all, that would be an outrage and a total miscarriage of justice. Second of all, that's not how things work. But, you know, is her way of looking at the world so different that she sees different numbers? Like, so it's like – it's nonsensical as far as trying to rehabilitate her. It is something that I think is valid as far as, like, people do have areas where they're not going to get things. Sometimes I feel like an alien when I'm talking to people.

[00:42:30] [SPEAKER_00] I think everyone feels that way at one time.

[00:42:32] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, you know, like, I mean, I – we've all probably been in a social situation where we're just like, wow, I'm just not – I am not getting it. You know, like, I'm not in the mix here. Or you've been in a thing where, like, you just – you're not connected or you're interpreting it so different than anyone else that can be isolating. So I think it's important to remember stuff like this as far as – yeah.

[00:42:54] [SPEAKER_00] The fact that Billy was so quick to jump on it and say, yes, this is great that you did this. It really shows something. Really made it clear to me that he likes this interpretation of her because it makes her more sympathetic. I'm curious, Anya, if you're Billy, if you're Elizabeth, are you happy with this movie, at least the first half of it?

[00:43:18] [SPEAKER_01] Yes. Highly happy. Very happy. Because maybe she's just a bit quirky. Maybe she thinks differently than other people. And it was all just a big misunderstanding. Not any ill intent on her part. She wanted to change the world. People just didn't get her. And honestly, a lot of – honestly, like, I see so many parallels with this in so many wrongful conviction products or projects or whatever you want to call it.

[00:43:43] [SPEAKER_01] And the reason I say that is because, like, there's so often this, like, you know, he wore a leather jacket. He was a bit different. He liked to listen to rock and roll. And people didn't get it in his conservative community. There's so much of that. And it's like, this person's othered by being a little different. But aren't we all a little different at the end of the day? Man, if you wore a leather jacket in high school, this could have happened to you.

[00:44:07] [SPEAKER_01] And, you know, as someone who is a – I guess, you know, has been a young woman or has been a woman who's struggled socially at times or, like, felt on the outside or felt like a misfit at times in my life or felt that I interpreted things so differently than everyone else and, like, I'm not fitting in because of that.

[00:44:31] [SPEAKER_01] But it's like, you know, when I see her in that situation, if I'm not thinking about the context of the other crimes, it makes me relate to her. It makes me, wow, you know, that could have been me. I could have explained something in a really confusing way.

[00:44:46] [SPEAKER_00] It goes back to what I said earlier, that if you spend time with a person and you're, like, metaphorically sitting on the couch with them as they're watching a comedy routine they don't understand that might say something about their personality, you start to like that person on some level. You start to feel some sort of sympathy for that person. Maybe to some extent that's because I'm a guy and she's a woman with really big eyes staring close up at the camera.

[00:45:14] [SPEAKER_00] But my instinctive reaction to the first half was to feel sympathetic for her, even if that was unearned intellectually. As someone who knew more about it, someone who's not a man, did you walk away from this first half of the movie feeling more sympathy for her than you had before?

[00:45:37] [SPEAKER_01] No. I didn't. Well, no. I should temper that. I felt bad for her as a human being, being in a situation where she is being taken away from her children. To me, that's something that I'm going to feel probably bad for many people who are in that situation, even if it is their fault and their bad choices that left them to that.

[00:46:05] [SPEAKER_01] It's really sad and it makes me sad for them. And she just had a baby and to be torn from the baby essentially is so antithetical to, you know, what a mother's body wants at that point and the hormones and all. Like I felt terrible for her about that. Like I really did. So for that, that doesn't require her being guilty or innocent.

[00:46:34] [SPEAKER_01] She can be guilty and I can still feel absolutely terrible for her like that. I think had she shown some level of contrition, like I was a young kid back then, I was kind of saying what I thought I needed to say. And I'm sorry that it basically devolved into fraud, but that was never my intent. And I think I would have had a lot of sympathy for her because I could see how someone in the hustle culture and like everything's crazy and like I could see you make bad decisions and bad mistakes and like lead to that point.

[00:47:03] [SPEAKER_01] And like I think that would have probably earned her sympathy for me. Knowing what I know about this case and what her role in it was, as far as the whole I'm just misunderstood thing, I thought, I think she's a highly skilled manipulator, Kevin. And I don't see her, maybe it's because I'm a heterosexual woman so I'm not like, you know, she's got the big blue eyes, she's got the blonde hair, she's, she seems, it's not even about attractiveness, she seems vulnerable.

[00:47:33] [SPEAKER_01] In some ways she seems very young, she seems like, even though she's, you know, she's an adult woman, but like there's something about her where it's like, I'm a little girl, help me. You know, there's this kind of, like there's that vibe to it. And for me, again, being someone who is neither attracted to women nor like seeing her as a little girl because it's like, no, you're, I'm an adult, you're certainly an adult, you're older than me.

[00:48:01] [SPEAKER_01] I just don't feel that, I don't feel like that, like, oh, we should rescue her, oh, she doesn't know what she's doing. I don't infantilize her. And it's not, I'm not criticizing, I understand with men, like they might see it differently, right? Like, and then like, oh, maybe she's not so bad. But like, for me, it's like, no, like I don't, a lot of what she was doing to me read as manipulative. A lot of the language she used read to me as manipulative.

[00:48:26] [SPEAKER_01] Now, to a certain extent, I'm biased going into it, having read things and watch things and consume things that were negative towards her. Or negative, but to me, I don't care if people are negative towards her. Because as I said, I still sympathize and humanize her about her babies. So it's not like I'm not capable of changing my mind about her. That's not something I ever really considered until I saw her with them. And then I saw her with them, I was like, that's so sad. That's horrible. So it's not like I'm incapable.

[00:48:55] [SPEAKER_01] It's not like I have one set thing in my mind about her where it's like I need her to be awful. But I think she is manipulative. I think at best, I see her as someone who is deluding herself, I guess, at best. But given the amount of fraud, I think she absolutely did. I don't really even think that's it. I kind of see her as someone who's very entitled and who feels entitled. Like, I have good intentions.

[00:49:24] [SPEAKER_01] I'm going to change the world. So the rules shouldn't apply to me. People should give me money. I'm not doing anything bad. If this works, everyone will be happy. And it's like that kind of attitude just, like, if you're not willing to abide by basic laws and not do fraud, like, you shouldn't be entrusted with that much money. I think she's a liar. And I think a lot of this was about trying to be manipulative and presenting her.

[00:49:53] [SPEAKER_01] And had she in – had things been a situation where she was only showcasing, like, hey, I'm a human being, like, that's one thing. But she's trying to relitigate her fraud convictions. And –

[00:50:09] [SPEAKER_00] And, in fact, maybe a little bit of the elephant in the room is that as they are preparing for her to go to prison, she and her husband, partner, whatever, Billy, are also busily trying to relaunch a company that's basically Theranos Mark II.

[00:50:29] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. Yeah.

[00:50:30] [SPEAKER_00] So it's like, had she learned nothing?

[00:50:32] [SPEAKER_01] Yes. And I don't believe she thinks she did anything wrong. I think – you know what this reminds me of? I remember this tweet lives rent-free in my head because I thought it was kind of funny. But I remember once – I saw – I don't even remember where I saw it, but I think it was a tweet. But it was, like, you know – it was something to the effect of – I'm going to butcher it, and it was probably funnier originally. But it was something to the effect of, like, leave Nixon alone about Watergate. He's literally neurodivergent.

[00:51:02] [SPEAKER_01] And I'm not saying she's neurodivergent or not. People can have a different way of looking at things, and they could struggle with certain modes of communication or certain ability to communicate and convey things, and they still are adults who have culpability and responsibility to do things that are not illegal. And, you know, that could be – that could be the case for her.

[00:51:28] [SPEAKER_01] But she – we shouldn't infantilize her just because she has a different way of seeing the world. And certainly a different way of seeing the world does not explain what she is accused of.

[00:51:39] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, and I want to stress this is a great movie, and one of the things that makes it great is it doesn't offer any easy answers. It gives you a lot of information that can allow you to come to your own conclusions about what kind of a person she is. I'm not even sure if the filmmakers all agree. It's the kind of movie you talk a lot about afterwards. I see a lot of people online talking about it.

[00:52:08] [SPEAKER_00] It's like the sort of movie you see, and you want to buttonhole people to see what they think about it.

[00:52:12] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, I'm trying to force everyone I know to watch it.

[00:52:14] [SPEAKER_00] A lot of the most interesting things are in the second half. And so, again, maybe in a few weeks when more of you have time to see it, we can get into some of that. I think I want to see it again because I think there's some nuances there. I'm not sure I caught –

[00:52:31] [SPEAKER_01] I was so glad my sister saw it early, so we were texting about it, and I was just like, what do you think? Because, like, literally – I just want to know – I want to know what you – I told you I think there's a scale, there's a spectrum here of she's totally honest but sees the world in kind of a weird way that doesn't always get translated to people. And they see it as lies, but she's telling the truth and believes she's telling the truth, believes what she's saying. Or she's a master manipulator, best to ever do it. Where do you come down?

[00:53:04] [SPEAKER_00] Are you talking to me or to the listener?

[00:53:06] [SPEAKER_01] No, you. I want to know – because I – you said you look at the big eyes and you're kind of like, aw.

[00:53:11] [SPEAKER_00] I think she's a master manipulator.

[00:53:14] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. I think she's one of the best to do it.

[00:53:16] [SPEAKER_00] But I'd be curious what our friends, the listeners, think, whether you've seen the movie or not. And, again, if you've seen the movie and want to see other stuff by Nathan Fielder because you're new to him, I think the rehearsal season two is your next stop. A lot of this movie is about how people communicate and how even a difference of a few words might make a huge difference in what something means.

[00:53:39] [SPEAKER_00] The rehearsal season two is about how a pilot and a co-pilot communicate and how if their communication is not perfect, does that contribute to, God forbid, crashes. And that's kind of a bland description of it. But that season goes into some very unexpected places. It's at times very serious. It's at times very funny.

[00:54:05] [SPEAKER_00] And if you watch this movie and you have an inch for more Nathan Fielder, I think that should be your next stop.

[00:54:11] [SPEAKER_01] It's a beautiful, beautiful piece of television. And I think about it all the time. I would say, can I address one thing with at least the first part of this movie that I think people are going to talk about? One thing I hear a lot about, and I'm always very interested in this, is, you know, and I hear this from folks who I very much respect and will talk about it sometimes, but they'll say, well, what?

[00:54:38] [SPEAKER_01] You know, if they're almost like, they almost give the edge to somebody. If they can repeatedly deny wrongdoing, they're like, well, well, wouldn't at some point it just be better for them to admit it if they did do it? And wouldn't it be better to, like, it almost makes, the repeated denials make them think, maybe the person is innocent. Because why not just admit it? And I think that's coming from a place of real honesty. I think when you have an honest person,

[00:55:05] [SPEAKER_01] continuing to pretend might, like, eat away at them to a certain extent. And at some point they might say, I'm going to give comfort to my victims or their survivors. I'm going to just admit what I did, and maybe that'll unburden my own conscience and allow for me to get better as a person and improve myself because I'm admitting wrongdoing. Maybe the parole board will look and say, okay, they admitted it. They took accountability, and maybe that'll benefit me.

[00:55:32] [SPEAKER_01] And I totally understand that mode of thinking why people think that. And I just totally, fundamentally disagree. Because I think those people are honest people putting themselves into a different kind of person's mindset. That's a dishonest person's mindset. And to me, if we can have wrongful admissions of guilt, we can certainly have wrongful denials of guilt. You know, you have innocent people who will say they did something for all manner of reasons. Mental illness, wanting attention,

[00:56:01] [SPEAKER_01] being browbeaten for hours by overly aggressive interrogators. But I also think you can have people who, for years, proclaim their innocence for many, many reasons. And I just want to say that in this case.

[00:56:17] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, it becomes a part of your identity, and you don't want to give that up. And in this case in particular, as we just noted, she is shown actively planning a new company. Can you imagine how much trouble she would have attracting investors to that new company if she just casually said, oh, by the way, no others charged against me for defrauding investors? They're all quite accurate. I did those things. By the way, give me your money.

[00:56:47] [SPEAKER_00] That's not going to work. So she has a pretty strong motivation. Yeah.

[00:56:51] [SPEAKER_01] And also, I just want to throw these out. Just throw these out because I made a list because, like, I was trying to brainstorm, I think, protecting one's own identity. If I see myself as a good person and a motivated person and somebody who's just trying to improve the world, which she obviously does, then it would be ego-shattering to my identity to be like, yeah, I did fraud. Like, and some people just can't handle that. I think sometimes it would be good to go through an ego-shattering if you did fraud because then maybe you won't do it again. But that's just me.

[00:57:20] [SPEAKER_01] But that can be a reason. There's an emotional benefit to some people to cling to the deception. It's safer. It feels comfortable. It helps them escape shame. And you're thinking, well, wouldn't you still have shame because you know you did it? But some people, they can compartmentalize it or they can say they can self-delude. And, you know, you don't, if you're very, ironically, if you're more prone to being,

[00:57:50] [SPEAKER_01] like, feeling shameful about yourself, if you have low self-esteem for some reason, you might even be, I think I've seen research something where, like, some things are, some people are more guilt-oriented, which means they might feel guilty for something bad they did, but they don't necessarily internalize it for their whole selves. Because shame is more like I am a bad person if I do bad things. So then you want to run away from the shame and you want to not admit that because then it would make you a bad person. Whereas if you just, okay, I did a bad thing here. I'm sorry about that. But I'm guilty about that.

[00:58:19] [SPEAKER_01] But I'm not, like, a horrible person. And you might have people who rationalize things. Like, yeah, I guess I did that. But that shouldn't even count as fraud because I, you know, for this, this, and this reason, you have all of these, all of, you know. And honestly, as you, it could just be strategic of, like, I want to do this again. So I don't, you know, I can't have people be like, well, you did fraud. So we're not going to give you money. I think people need to realize that there's all manner of reasons why people can continue

[00:58:49] [SPEAKER_01] to deny reality. And it doesn't make them sincere. And what you're, when you see sincerity, that just says something about you. Because you might be a very sincere person. And you might not do that unless you really felt you had done that wrong. But you're putting yourself into the mindset of somebody who may not share your values. And this, in this case, I think very likely does not. So empathize, but empathize at your own peril to a certain extent.

[00:59:19] [SPEAKER_01] You go in, like, you know, come into my parlor, said the spider to the fly. I really feel like this is that. And I think it, for me, what I walk away from is people who do bad things are still human beings and still love their kids in many cases. And it can be sad and you can empathize and you can say, this is a bad outcome. It's too bad that this happened. And it's too bad that these babies are going through this along with everyone else.

[00:59:49] [SPEAKER_01] But that doesn't make someone a good person on the flip side.

[00:59:54] [SPEAKER_00] Well said. Was there anything else you wanted to say about this first half?

[00:59:58] [SPEAKER_01] Go see this movie. It's amazing.

[01:00:02] [SPEAKER_00] Go see the movie.

[01:00:03] [SPEAKER_01] I was dying the whole time. I was, like, cringing out of my skin at some points. And then at other points, I was laughing. And at other points, I felt so, I mean, like, it just...

[01:00:12] [SPEAKER_00] It's quite an experience. It's three hours. It flies by. I would be shocked if you and I didn't go see this at least one more time.

[01:00:20] [SPEAKER_01] I gasped. Like, in the theater. I never do that. I'm never like, but, like, I literally did. So...

[01:00:25] [SPEAKER_00] It is that rare type of movie you want to talk about afterwards. And there's so many things that happen in it that you won't expect. I think, unless you all tell us not to, I think we're going to come back in a few weeks and do an episode about the second half of the movie, which has a lot of jaw-dropping stuff in it.

[01:00:45] [SPEAKER_01] The first half, I'm like, this is the weirdest, wildest documentary I've ever seen. And then, like, the second part, I'm like, oh, no. Now we're just out into space. Like, it gets even wilder. Like, I didn't... Like, at first, I was like, I can't believe these people are opening up every aspect of their life to Nathan Fielder. Like, the guy who did Nathan for you, you know? And then, like, and then it just gets even wilder. But it was great. I mean, it was a wonderful observation on humanity and communication, as you said. It's just...

[01:01:15] [SPEAKER_01] It's terrific. He's a genius, I think. So, I mean, you should definitely go see it.

[01:01:20] [SPEAKER_00] So, thanks for listening.

[01:01:21] [SPEAKER_01] Yes, thank you.

[01:01:22] [SPEAKER_00] Thanks so much for listening to The Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us at murdersheet at gmail.com. If you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

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