The Cheat Sheet: Allergies and Anhydrous Ammonia

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[00:00:30] [SPEAKER_00]: Seeking the truth never gets old, even when it hides in the shadows.

[00:00:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Immerse yourself in the world of June's Journey,

[00:00:37] [SPEAKER_00]: a free-to-play hidden object game set in the roaring 20s.

[00:00:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Solve the mystery of the devious gossip spreader,

[00:00:44] [SPEAKER_00]: and celebrate our 7th anniversary with exclusive events,

[00:00:47] [SPEAKER_00]: never-before-seen decorations, thrilling mysteries, and exciting giveaways.

[00:00:52] [SPEAKER_00]: The adventure and the gossip awaits!

[00:00:54] [SPEAKER_00]: Are you ready for the journey?

[00:00:56] [SPEAKER_00]: Download June's Journey today for free on Android or iOS.

[00:01:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Content warning, this episode includes discussion of domestic abuse,

[00:01:04] [SPEAKER_02]: violence, and murder.

[00:01:06] [SPEAKER_03]: So welcome to today's cheat sheet.

[00:01:08] [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you so much for tuning in.

[00:01:10] [SPEAKER_03]: We're going to be recording this a little bit early

[00:01:12] [SPEAKER_03]: due to the Delphi hearing on Friday of this week.

[00:01:15] [SPEAKER_03]: So if there's any developments that happen in the meantime,

[00:01:17] [SPEAKER_03]: we do apologize, but we are recording this on August 20th.

[00:01:21] [SPEAKER_03]: So we're going to be talking about five cases today,

[00:01:25] [SPEAKER_03]: four traditional homicides or at least possible homicides,

[00:01:29] [SPEAKER_03]: and then one death case that was so unusual

[00:01:32] [SPEAKER_03]: that we felt we had to talk about it

[00:01:34] [SPEAKER_03]: even though it's not a traditional murder.

[00:01:36] [SPEAKER_03]: So in Michigan, there's a huge update on a case

[00:01:41] [SPEAKER_03]: we covered in a previous cheat sheet.

[00:01:43] [SPEAKER_03]: In Texas, we have developments that have happened

[00:01:46] [SPEAKER_03]: in Anita Byington's case,

[00:01:48] [SPEAKER_03]: which is a case we covered in-depth

[00:01:49] [SPEAKER_03]: with Anita's cousin, Christina, and the Innocence Project of Texas.

[00:01:54] [SPEAKER_03]: In Hawaii, there is a soldier who has been accused in his wife's death

[00:02:01] [SPEAKER_03]: in California.

[00:02:03] [SPEAKER_03]: Arrests have been made in yet another case

[00:02:04] [SPEAKER_03]: we covered on a cheat sheet.

[00:02:07] [SPEAKER_03]: And in Florida, a death case occurred

[00:02:10] [SPEAKER_03]: that ended up embroiling a very, very powerful company

[00:02:15] [SPEAKER_03]: in some controversy,

[00:02:16] [SPEAKER_03]: and we're going to raise some troubling questions about what that means.

[00:02:22] [SPEAKER_03]: My name is Ania Cain.

[00:02:24] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm a journalist.

[00:02:25] [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm Kevin Greenlee.

[00:02:27] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm an attorney.

[00:02:28] [SPEAKER_02]: And this is the murder sheet.

[00:02:30] [SPEAKER_02]: We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting,

[00:02:33] [SPEAKER_02]: interviews, and deep dives into murder cases.

[00:02:36] [SPEAKER_02]: We're the murder sheet.

[00:02:38] [SPEAKER_03]: And this is the cheat sheet,

[00:02:40] [SPEAKER_03]: allergies and anhydrous ammonia.

[00:03:27] [SPEAKER_03]: So this first case is a listener recommendation.

[00:03:31] [SPEAKER_03]: And my source for this is WTOL,

[00:03:34] [SPEAKER_03]: which has been doing some great local coverage of this situation.

[00:03:39] [SPEAKER_03]: So in December of 2023, we covered the case of D Warner.

[00:03:43] [SPEAKER_03]: This was a 52-year-old business woman

[00:03:45] [SPEAKER_03]: worked in her own trucking company.

[00:03:48] [SPEAKER_03]: She was married to Dale Warner.

[00:03:50] [SPEAKER_03]: And she lived in Tipton, Michigan, in Lenawee County.

[00:03:57] [SPEAKER_03]: And it all was not well in her life though,

[00:04:00] [SPEAKER_03]: because family told news media that they suspected

[00:04:03] [SPEAKER_03]: she was being abused by Dale Warner.

[00:04:06] [SPEAKER_03]: And then on April 24th or 25th, 2021, she vanished from her house.

[00:04:11] [SPEAKER_03]: So she was never seen again alive at that point by anyone else.

[00:04:14] [SPEAKER_03]: So the Lenawee County Sheriff's Office came in

[00:04:18] [SPEAKER_03]: and they also asked for help from the Michigan State Police and the FBI.

[00:04:22] [SPEAKER_03]: So all these different agencies are working on it.

[00:04:24] [SPEAKER_03]: 2023 in November, her husband, Dale Warner,

[00:04:27] [SPEAKER_03]: is arrested and charged with both her murder

[00:04:29] [SPEAKER_03]: and tampering with evidence.

[00:04:31] [SPEAKER_03]: He pled not guilty and got a $15 million bond.

[00:04:35] [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, so where are we now?

[00:04:36] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, there's been a huge development.

[00:04:38] [SPEAKER_03]: On August 16th, 2024,

[00:04:41] [SPEAKER_03]: law enforcement went out to two properties that Warner owns.

[00:04:46] [SPEAKER_03]: And they found a tank on his Paragon Road property

[00:04:49] [SPEAKER_03]: in a very secluded area.

[00:04:50] [SPEAKER_03]: And there were remains in that tank.

[00:04:53] [SPEAKER_03]: Human remains.

[00:04:54] [SPEAKER_03]: This is an anhydrous tank to hold anhydrous ammonia.

[00:04:59] [SPEAKER_03]: And according to family, speaking with WTOL,

[00:05:03] [SPEAKER_03]: the tank was empty of ammonia.

[00:05:05] [SPEAKER_03]: And just to give you some background,

[00:05:07] [SPEAKER_03]: this is a common gas made of nitrogen and hydrogen.

[00:05:11] [SPEAKER_03]: Hydrogen in agriculture, it's a very, very efficient fertilizer.

[00:05:15] [SPEAKER_03]: And you can just inject it straight into the soil,

[00:05:18] [SPEAKER_03]: but it has to be stored in these special steel containers.

[00:05:21] [SPEAKER_03]: And we'll include a link to the helpful explainer, WTOL,

[00:05:25] [SPEAKER_03]: did about everything you need to know about that.

[00:05:28] [SPEAKER_03]: But apparently the body was put in this tank.

[00:05:32] [SPEAKER_03]: The tank was re-welded.

[00:05:33] [SPEAKER_03]: The tank was painted over.

[00:05:35] [SPEAKER_03]: And what family sources and police sources told the news

[00:05:39] [SPEAKER_03]: was that this discovery did not come from a confession

[00:05:42] [SPEAKER_03]: from Dale Warner or any sort of tip.

[00:05:45] [SPEAKER_03]: Law enforcement just did not give up looking for D.

[00:05:47] [SPEAKER_03]: And as of our recording at this moment,

[00:05:51] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't believe that it has been confirmed officially

[00:05:54] [SPEAKER_03]: that it is her body.

[00:05:56] [SPEAKER_03]: But the family obviously believes that they are.

[00:06:00] [SPEAKER_03]: And I think that is a pretty reasonable assumption

[00:06:03] [SPEAKER_03]: to make in this situation.

[00:06:05] [SPEAKER_03]: An autopsy is scheduled for today actually on Tuesday.

[00:06:08] [SPEAKER_03]: But I'm sure we'll hear more back later on,

[00:06:11] [SPEAKER_03]: but this is just a development to let you know.

[00:06:13] [SPEAKER_03]: Obviously, this is a case where authorities felt

[00:06:16] [SPEAKER_03]: that they could go ahead with murder charges regardless.

[00:06:20] [SPEAKER_03]: But the fact that a body has now been found

[00:06:22] [SPEAKER_03]: welded into a tank on this man's property,

[00:06:26] [SPEAKER_03]: obviously that's a pretty big deal.

[00:06:28] [SPEAKER_03]: What do you think is a lawyer in that situation?

[00:06:31] [SPEAKER_02]: I think the legal term is indeed big deal.

[00:06:34] [SPEAKER_03]: Big deal.

[00:06:35] [SPEAKER_03]: There you go.

[00:06:37] [SPEAKER_02]: So this obviously further strengthens the strong case.

[00:06:40] [SPEAKER_03]: And like you agree, like the fact that they,

[00:06:41] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean people often, I think like overdo the whole

[00:06:44] [SPEAKER_03]: like no body stuff.

[00:06:46] [SPEAKER_03]: If it's a no body case and there's no evidence

[00:06:48] [SPEAKER_03]: that a crime happened, that can be a problem.

[00:06:50] [SPEAKER_03]: But if there's a no body case and there's other evidence

[00:06:54] [SPEAKER_03]: indicating something was wrong then.

[00:06:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Here is the thing to keep in mind with no body cases.

[00:07:02] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.

[00:07:02] [SPEAKER_02]: It is obviously more difficult to prove

[00:07:05] [SPEAKER_02]: a murder has been committed if there is no body.

[00:07:10] [SPEAKER_02]: So what that means though is the prosecutors are generally

[00:07:14] [SPEAKER_02]: more reluctant to pursue those cases

[00:07:17] [SPEAKER_02]: unless they have even more evidence

[00:07:20] [SPEAKER_02]: than just a really strong case to overcome that.

[00:07:24] [SPEAKER_02]: And so because of that,

[00:07:26] [SPEAKER_02]: when prosecutors reach the decision to yes,

[00:07:29] [SPEAKER_02]: there's no body in this case,

[00:07:30] [SPEAKER_02]: but we have the evidence to go forward,

[00:07:32] [SPEAKER_02]: those cases have a much higher rate of conviction

[00:07:36] [SPEAKER_02]: than other cases because they only go forward

[00:07:39] [SPEAKER_02]: if they are very, very strong in order to overcome

[00:07:42] [SPEAKER_02]: the perceived deficit of not having a body.

[00:07:45] [SPEAKER_03]: Absolutely well said.

[00:07:47] [SPEAKER_03]: So I'm going to move right along to Texas now.

[00:07:51] [SPEAKER_03]: All of the cases I picked for this week are updates,

[00:07:54] [SPEAKER_03]: which is kind of nice to see because it's nice

[00:07:56] [SPEAKER_03]: to get developments and check back in on these cases

[00:07:58] [SPEAKER_03]: that we covered and sort of let you know

[00:08:00] [SPEAKER_03]: what's going on right now.

[00:08:01] [SPEAKER_03]: And this is a case that you and I really delved into.

[00:08:05] [SPEAKER_03]: This is the murder of Anita Byington,

[00:08:08] [SPEAKER_03]: a Texas case that's occurred in Austin, Texas.

[00:08:11] [SPEAKER_03]: Anita was 21 years old and on August 10th, 1991,

[00:08:15] [SPEAKER_03]: she was on a weekend trip with her friends and relatives

[00:08:18] [SPEAKER_03]: and it went horribly wrong.

[00:08:20] [SPEAKER_03]: And in this situation,

[00:08:21] [SPEAKER_03]: it's a very complicated legal matter,

[00:08:24] [SPEAKER_03]: but we're going to delve into it.

[00:08:27] [SPEAKER_03]: After sort of separating from her friends,

[00:08:29] [SPEAKER_03]: her body was found the next morning

[00:08:31] [SPEAKER_03]: at the Spring Creek Apartments.

[00:08:32] [SPEAKER_03]: She was still clothed,

[00:08:33] [SPEAKER_03]: but she had been beaten possibly

[00:08:34] [SPEAKER_03]: with a concrete rain diverter

[00:08:36] [SPEAKER_03]: and died of very severe head trauma.

[00:08:39] [SPEAKER_03]: Early suspicion fell on the man she was last seen with,

[00:08:42] [SPEAKER_03]: a man named Kevin Harris.

[00:08:44] [SPEAKER_03]: He claimed that they had had consensual sex,

[00:08:47] [SPEAKER_03]: but obviously he's the last man seen with her.

[00:08:50] [SPEAKER_03]: They kind of separated from the rest of the group

[00:08:51] [SPEAKER_03]: because she was supposed to drive him somewhere

[00:08:53] [SPEAKER_03]: that's suspicious.

[00:08:54] [SPEAKER_03]: But then another suspect came up,

[00:08:56] [SPEAKER_03]: a man named Alan Andre Cosi known as Andre.

[00:09:00] [SPEAKER_03]: He came up to the crime scene early on,

[00:09:03] [SPEAKER_03]: made odd comments,

[00:09:05] [SPEAKER_03]: and then when he was asked to go into police,

[00:09:07] [SPEAKER_03]: he started giving conflicted stories

[00:09:08] [SPEAKER_03]: until he up and confessed to killing Anita,

[00:09:12] [SPEAKER_03]: saying that a drug deal had gone bad with Harris,

[00:09:15] [SPEAKER_03]: or at least he referred to Harris as a black man,

[00:09:18] [SPEAKER_03]: but saying Anita had been there with a black man,

[00:09:21] [SPEAKER_03]: a drug deal went wrong.

[00:09:23] [SPEAKER_03]: The guy ran away leaving her

[00:09:25] [SPEAKER_03]: and that Cosi and his friend

[00:09:28] [SPEAKER_03]: and soon to be brother-in-law,

[00:09:29] [SPEAKER_03]: Bobby Harrell subsequently killed Anita.

[00:09:33] [SPEAKER_03]: He claimed that she was beaten,

[00:09:34] [SPEAKER_03]: including with a belt buckle,

[00:09:36] [SPEAKER_03]: which seems to be consistent

[00:09:39] [SPEAKER_03]: with the forensics of the scene.

[00:09:42] [SPEAKER_03]: Now Harrell, his alleged conspirator,

[00:09:45] [SPEAKER_03]: or his alleged co-accomplice,

[00:09:47] [SPEAKER_03]: or what, you know,

[00:09:48] [SPEAKER_03]: the man who killed Anita with him,

[00:09:51] [SPEAKER_03]: he never confessed and was never tried,

[00:09:54] [SPEAKER_03]: but Cosi ended up going to trial

[00:09:57] [SPEAKER_03]: and the jury found him guilty.

[00:09:59] [SPEAKER_03]: He was convicted and sentenced to 50 years,

[00:10:02] [SPEAKER_03]: he served 31 years,

[00:10:03] [SPEAKER_03]: and then in October 2022,

[00:10:04] [SPEAKER_03]: he was released on parole.

[00:10:07] [SPEAKER_03]: Now Cosi's supporters

[00:10:08] [SPEAKER_03]: say his confession was either coerced

[00:10:10] [SPEAKER_03]: or just false,

[00:10:11] [SPEAKER_03]: and that that was the crux

[00:10:13] [SPEAKER_03]: of the innocent project of Texas's crusade

[00:10:15] [SPEAKER_03]: to get him exonerated.

[00:10:17] [SPEAKER_03]: This is not a situation

[00:10:18] [SPEAKER_03]: where they were trying to get him

[00:10:20] [SPEAKER_03]: out of prison,

[00:10:21] [SPEAKER_03]: he was already out,

[00:10:22] [SPEAKER_03]: but they wanted his record exonerated,

[00:10:26] [SPEAKER_03]: basically, like a wrongful conviction nonetheless.

[00:10:30] [SPEAKER_03]: So that's what they were advocating for for him,

[00:10:33] [SPEAKER_03]: and it went up against in the court

[00:10:36] [SPEAKER_03]: of the honorable Chantal Eldridge,

[00:10:40] [SPEAKER_03]: and there were several grounds

[00:10:43] [SPEAKER_03]: for relief that they brought to her.

[00:10:46] [SPEAKER_03]: One, actual innocence.

[00:10:49] [SPEAKER_03]: Two, saying that witness Kevin Harris lied

[00:10:52] [SPEAKER_03]: and the state sort of sponsored

[00:10:54] [SPEAKER_03]: that and benefited from it.

[00:10:55] [SPEAKER_03]: Three, the Austin Police Department officers

[00:10:57] [SPEAKER_03]: in the case provided materially false testimony.

[00:11:01] [SPEAKER_03]: Four, there was withholding of Brady evidence,

[00:11:03] [SPEAKER_03]: and that was around the Austin Police Department

[00:11:06] [SPEAKER_03]: homicide units pattern

[00:11:07] [SPEAKER_03]: of getting false confessions from people,

[00:11:11] [SPEAKER_03]: and then there was a fifth one that was waived.

[00:11:13] [SPEAKER_03]: So Judge Eldridge ruled in Cosi's favor

[00:11:18] [SPEAKER_03]: on grounds two, three, and four

[00:11:20] [SPEAKER_03]: for what I'm reading here,

[00:11:21] [SPEAKER_03]: but she ruled against them

[00:11:23] [SPEAKER_03]: on the actual innocence bit.

[00:11:26] [SPEAKER_03]: So these are grounds for relief,

[00:11:28] [SPEAKER_03]: so my understanding is that this will then go

[00:11:30] [SPEAKER_03]: to the appeals court,

[00:11:31] [SPEAKER_03]: and it would be grounds for he should be exonerated

[00:11:33] [SPEAKER_03]: because of these things.

[00:11:36] [SPEAKER_03]: And so she's saying you can go ahead

[00:11:38] [SPEAKER_03]: with some of these technical issues around

[00:11:41] [SPEAKER_03]: witnesses being problems around,

[00:11:43] [SPEAKER_03]: police being problems or whatever.

[00:11:45] [SPEAKER_03]: That all you can go with,

[00:11:48] [SPEAKER_03]: but she denied it on the grounds of actual innocence.

[00:11:51] [SPEAKER_03]: Is that fair to say?

[00:11:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[00:11:53] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:11:54] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, what do you make of that?

[00:11:55] [SPEAKER_03]: Obviously, I think that's very vindicating for

[00:11:59] [SPEAKER_03]: Christina Byington who's been advocating

[00:12:01] [SPEAKER_03]: for Anita since in the sense that she's saying,

[00:12:04] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know that this guy is innocent.

[00:12:06] [SPEAKER_03]: I want more evidence to prove that.

[00:12:10] [SPEAKER_02]: She's really made a difference in this case

[00:12:12] [SPEAKER_02]: through her advocacy,

[00:12:13] [SPEAKER_02]: and it's really been a pleasure for us to get to know her.

[00:12:16] [SPEAKER_02]: We will enjoy having her on the program.

[00:12:18] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, we did.

[00:12:20] [SPEAKER_03]: But we also got the Innocence Project of Texas's view,

[00:12:22] [SPEAKER_03]: which is that he's innocent and they're going to advocate.

[00:12:24] [SPEAKER_03]: So it's kind of interesting to get both sides, but

[00:12:28] [SPEAKER_03]: the not rule,

[00:12:29] [SPEAKER_03]: basically declining or kind of saying,

[00:12:32] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm not going to say he's factually innocent.

[00:12:34] [SPEAKER_03]: That does seem like a bit of a blow to him on that sense.

[00:12:39] [SPEAKER_03]: But it still allows him to go forward and say,

[00:12:42] [SPEAKER_03]: well, but these other issues were a problem.

[00:12:44] [SPEAKER_03]: So it should be overturned on those grounds.

[00:12:48] [SPEAKER_03]: Is that?

[00:12:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[00:12:49] [SPEAKER_03]: How are you reading it?

[00:12:49] [SPEAKER_03]: I want to read a little bit from her ruling

[00:12:52] [SPEAKER_03]: because I think it's interesting and kind of has some more details.

[00:12:57] [SPEAKER_03]: If that's okay.

[00:12:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Please do.

[00:12:59] [SPEAKER_03]: It's okay.

[00:13:00] [SPEAKER_03]: So this is all a quote, quote.

[00:13:05] [SPEAKER_03]: To establish he is entitled relief,

[00:13:06] [SPEAKER_03]: applicant must show that one, newly discovered evidence,

[00:13:09] [SPEAKER_03]: two, constitutes affirmative evidence of innocence,

[00:13:12] [SPEAKER_03]: and three, by clearing convincing evidence,

[00:13:14] [SPEAKER_03]: no rational juror would have convicted him

[00:13:16] [SPEAKER_03]: in light of the newly discovered evidence.

[00:13:19] [SPEAKER_03]: Newly discovered evidence clearly inculpates Kevin Harris

[00:13:22] [SPEAKER_03]: in the murder of Anita Beigenton.

[00:13:24] [SPEAKER_03]: The parties have established beyond a reasonable doubt

[00:13:26] [SPEAKER_03]: that Kevin Harris was at minimum

[00:13:28] [SPEAKER_03]: party to the murder of Anita Beigenton.

[00:13:30] [SPEAKER_03]: However, the parties have not established

[00:13:32] [SPEAKER_03]: by clearing convincing evidence

[00:13:33] [SPEAKER_03]: that Kevin Harris acted alone

[00:13:35] [SPEAKER_03]: in the murder of Anita Beigenton.

[00:13:37] [SPEAKER_03]: Forensic pathology indicated Beigenton was beaten

[00:13:41] [SPEAKER_03]: with both concrete rain diverter

[00:13:43] [SPEAKER_03]: and an item that appeared to be consistent

[00:13:45] [SPEAKER_03]: with a belt buckle, suggesting multiple assailants.

[00:13:48] [SPEAKER_03]: The parties have established

[00:13:49] [SPEAKER_03]: that one section of applicants confession was false.

[00:13:52] [SPEAKER_03]: The portion where applicant claimed

[00:13:54] [SPEAKER_03]: to have moved Beigenton's car.

[00:13:56] [SPEAKER_03]: The parties have not established

[00:13:57] [SPEAKER_03]: that applicants confession in total was false.

[00:14:00] [SPEAKER_03]: While the case against applicant

[00:14:01] [SPEAKER_03]: was has significantly weakened

[00:14:03] [SPEAKER_03]: over the course of habeas litigation

[00:14:05] [SPEAKER_03]: and disregarding his questionable confession,

[00:14:08] [SPEAKER_03]: some inculpatory evidence against applicant

[00:14:10] [SPEAKER_03]: remains in the record.

[00:14:12] [SPEAKER_03]: Specifically, a resident of the apartment complex

[00:14:15] [SPEAKER_03]: where Beigenton's body was found

[00:14:16] [SPEAKER_03]: informed law enforcement investigators

[00:14:18] [SPEAKER_03]: that they heard a woman's voice screaming for help

[00:14:20] [SPEAKER_03]: followed by two unintelligible male voices.

[00:14:24] [SPEAKER_03]: Applicant acted suspiciously

[00:14:26] [SPEAKER_03]: in the hours following the murder,

[00:14:28] [SPEAKER_03]: including repeatedly driving slowly

[00:14:30] [SPEAKER_03]: by the crime scene after law enforcement had responded,

[00:14:33] [SPEAKER_03]: repeatedly looking at the place

[00:14:34] [SPEAKER_03]: where the body had been found

[00:14:35] [SPEAKER_03]: as he was driving by.

[00:14:38] [SPEAKER_03]: Applicant parked in the apartment complex lot,

[00:14:40] [SPEAKER_03]: approached a crowd of neighbors,

[00:14:42] [SPEAKER_03]: an unprompted, volunteered, I didn't kill her.

[00:14:45] [SPEAKER_03]: Applicant claimed to the group of neighbors

[00:14:47] [SPEAKER_03]: that he found the body and called the police.

[00:14:49] [SPEAKER_03]: Another resident of the apartment complex

[00:14:50] [SPEAKER_03]: was the initial 911 caller

[00:14:52] [SPEAKER_03]: who found and reported Beigenton's body.

[00:14:54] [SPEAKER_03]: A neighbor described applicant

[00:14:56] [SPEAKER_03]: as acting nervous and strange

[00:14:57] [SPEAKER_03]: when he was stopped by the group of neighbors.

[00:14:59] [SPEAKER_03]: At booking, applicant was very upset

[00:15:01] [SPEAKER_03]: and stated I was with him but didn't kill nobody.

[00:15:04] [SPEAKER_03]: While the newly discovered evidence

[00:15:06] [SPEAKER_03]: inculpates Kevin Harris,

[00:15:07] [SPEAKER_03]: it does not constitute affirmative evidence

[00:15:09] [SPEAKER_03]: of applicants innocence.

[00:15:11] [SPEAKER_03]: Applicant is not established by clear and convincing evidence

[00:15:13] [SPEAKER_03]: that no rational juror would have convicted him

[00:15:15] [SPEAKER_03]: in light of the newly discovered evidence.

[00:15:18] [SPEAKER_03]: Applicant has not met his burden

[00:15:19] [SPEAKER_03]: of proof to establish actual innocence

[00:15:21] [SPEAKER_03]: under Herrera and Elizondo.

[00:15:24] [SPEAKER_03]: Relief on ground one should be denied.

[00:15:26] [SPEAKER_03]: On the basis of the above findings and conclusions,

[00:15:29] [SPEAKER_03]: the court hereby recommends

[00:15:29] [SPEAKER_03]: that relief be granted in part

[00:15:31] [SPEAKER_03]: consistent with the court's prior findings.

[00:15:34] [SPEAKER_03]: End quote.

[00:15:35] [SPEAKER_03]: So she's going into detail about

[00:15:38] [SPEAKER_03]: what is problematic about Kauzi's conviction

[00:15:41] [SPEAKER_03]: and then what is perhaps something

[00:15:43] [SPEAKER_03]: that they didn't quite get to.

[00:15:45] [SPEAKER_03]: And what she's saying is

[00:15:47] [SPEAKER_03]: while portions of the case against Kauzi

[00:15:50] [SPEAKER_03]: have been significantly weakened,

[00:15:52] [SPEAKER_03]: there are still questions remaining for her

[00:15:54] [SPEAKER_03]: about whether he could have been involved at all or not.

[00:15:57] [SPEAKER_03]: And so therefore she's not going to grant that

[00:15:59] [SPEAKER_03]: on those grounds but she has granted it on others.

[00:16:02] [SPEAKER_03]: So it's definitely a mixed bag for everybody

[00:16:05] [SPEAKER_03]: but certainly I imagine again gratifying for

[00:16:08] [SPEAKER_03]: those in Anita's family who do believe he's guilty

[00:16:10] [SPEAKER_03]: but it still also offers Kauzi a way to move forward.

[00:16:15] [SPEAKER_03]: So it's definitely interesting.

[00:16:16] [SPEAKER_03]: But I wanted to give everyone an update on that.

[00:16:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for doing so.

[00:16:20] [SPEAKER_02]: I wanted to quickly mention another case that's ongoing.

[00:16:24] [SPEAKER_02]: For some reason, I'm not even sure why.

[00:16:27] [SPEAKER_02]: I sort of arbitrarily decided

[00:16:28] [SPEAKER_02]: we need to cover more Hawaiian cases.

[00:16:30] [SPEAKER_02]: So this is a case out of Hawaii

[00:16:33] [SPEAKER_02]: and our source for this is the Honolulu Star Advertiser.

[00:16:38] [SPEAKER_02]: And it involves a woman named Misha Johnson, 19 years old.

[00:16:44] [SPEAKER_02]: She is married to private first class Duane Johnson

[00:16:48] [SPEAKER_02]: and he is in the military in Hawaii

[00:16:52] [SPEAKER_02]: and he's stationed at the Schilfeld Barracks out there.

[00:16:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Misha is pregnant.

[00:16:58] [SPEAKER_02]: She and she went missing.

[00:17:01] [SPEAKER_02]: She was last seen in her home at Schilfeld Barracks on July 31st.

[00:17:07] [SPEAKER_02]: The Army is offering a $10,000 reward for her.

[00:17:11] [SPEAKER_02]: Any information that can lead authorities to her?

[00:17:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Again, she is six months pregnant.

[00:17:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh man.

[00:17:18] [SPEAKER_02]: So a pretty serious matter and the big recent development

[00:17:22] [SPEAKER_02]: in this case is that the husband Duane Johnson

[00:17:26] [SPEAKER_02]: has recently been quote detained.

[00:17:30] [SPEAKER_02]: I take that to mean he's in some sort of pretrial detention

[00:17:33] [SPEAKER_02]: or pre-charging detention.

[00:17:35] [SPEAKER_02]: So there may be reason to suspect that he did something to this woman.

[00:17:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Meanwhile, the Army is very interested

[00:17:44] [SPEAKER_02]: in getting information about her.

[00:17:46] [SPEAKER_02]: And if by chance any of you listening

[00:17:49] [SPEAKER_02]: happen to have any knowledge of this,

[00:17:51] [SPEAKER_02]: you can reach out to the Army at 808-2008-0057.

[00:18:02] [SPEAKER_03]: It's so horrifying.

[00:18:04] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm so glad you picked this case, Kevin,

[00:18:06] [SPEAKER_03]: because this is something that the amount of domestic violence

[00:18:13] [SPEAKER_03]: that even pregnant women suffer is just terrifying.

[00:18:17] [SPEAKER_03]: These are some stats from the National Coalition

[00:18:19] [SPEAKER_03]: against Domestic Violence.

[00:18:21] [SPEAKER_03]: So they say that 50 to 75% of women who were abused

[00:18:25] [SPEAKER_03]: before pregnancy are abused during their pregnancy.

[00:18:29] [SPEAKER_03]: So being pregnant is not some sort of reprieve for them

[00:18:31] [SPEAKER_03]: when it comes to dealing with domestic violence.

[00:18:34] [SPEAKER_03]: And up to 20% of pregnant women in general

[00:18:37] [SPEAKER_03]: experience violence during their pregnancy.

[00:18:40] [SPEAKER_03]: So obviously that causes so much harm to the baby

[00:18:44] [SPEAKER_03]: and to the woman experiencing this.

[00:18:46] [SPEAKER_03]: And then when it comes to pregnant homicide victims,

[00:18:51] [SPEAKER_03]: 77% are killed very early during the pregnancy

[00:18:56] [SPEAKER_03]: so in the first trimester.

[00:18:58] [SPEAKER_03]: So obviously that would not be the case

[00:19:00] [SPEAKER_03]: if that is unfortunately the outcome here.

[00:19:01] [SPEAKER_03]: But it's just when it comes to who's at a greater risk factor,

[00:19:08] [SPEAKER_03]: it's women with unplanned pregnancies

[00:19:09] [SPEAKER_03]: and adolescents who become pregnant.

[00:19:13] [SPEAKER_03]: It's a horrifying reality,

[00:19:14] [SPEAKER_03]: but it's something that I think people should know about.

[00:19:18] [SPEAKER_03]: The more we all know about domestic violence,

[00:19:20] [SPEAKER_03]: the more we're able to help intervene,

[00:19:22] [SPEAKER_03]: to help protect people who are experiencing that

[00:19:24] [SPEAKER_03]: and help try to make it so that this is not something

[00:19:28] [SPEAKER_03]: that people have to continue facing.

[00:19:35] [SPEAKER_03]: So I guess another update?

[00:19:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[00:19:38] [SPEAKER_03]: So it can leave Hawaii and head back to California.

[00:19:42] [SPEAKER_03]: So my source for this is ABC7.

[00:19:44] [SPEAKER_03]: I previously spent an episode geeking out

[00:19:47] [SPEAKER_03]: about General Hospital, a long-running American soap opera

[00:19:50] [SPEAKER_03]: that I love and is near and dear to my heart.

[00:19:52] [SPEAKER_03]: But there was very sad news regarding that show recently,

[00:19:55] [SPEAKER_03]: a 37-year-old actor from General Hospital named Johnny Wachter.

[00:20:01] [SPEAKER_03]: He played character of Brando Corbin

[00:20:03] [SPEAKER_03]: and was on the show from like 2020 to 2022.

[00:20:07] [SPEAKER_03]: But on May 25th, 2024,

[00:20:09] [SPEAKER_03]: he and a coworker were leaving work

[00:20:11] [SPEAKER_03]: at a rooftop bar in Los Angeles.

[00:20:13] [SPEAKER_03]: It was very early in the morning.

[00:20:14] [SPEAKER_03]: They were on around Hope Street in Pico Boulevard.

[00:20:18] [SPEAKER_03]: And they came upon three people who were stealing

[00:20:22] [SPEAKER_03]: Johnny's car's catalytic converter.

[00:20:24] [SPEAKER_03]: At first, they thought they were towing it,

[00:20:26] [SPEAKER_03]: so they didn't like, they were just like,

[00:20:27] [SPEAKER_03]: wait, what's going on?

[00:20:28] [SPEAKER_03]: And by the time they realized what was happening,

[00:20:30] [SPEAKER_03]: it was too late.

[00:20:32] [SPEAKER_03]: But just a little side note, catalytic converters,

[00:20:35] [SPEAKER_03]: that's the part of your car where

[00:20:36] [SPEAKER_03]: it's about exhausted mission control.

[00:20:39] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm not a car person.

[00:20:40] [SPEAKER_03]: I had to look this up.

[00:20:41] [SPEAKER_03]: I have no idea what I'm talking about.

[00:20:42] [SPEAKER_03]: But I guess it makes the exhaust gas less toxic.

[00:20:46] [SPEAKER_03]: And one thing that makes them a huge target for thieves

[00:20:48] [SPEAKER_03]: is that they are chock full of very precious metals,

[00:20:51] [SPEAKER_03]: including platinum.

[00:20:53] [SPEAKER_03]: So thieves will literally like take tools

[00:20:55] [SPEAKER_03]: and get your catalytic converter off of your car

[00:20:58] [SPEAKER_03]: and steal it.

[00:21:00] [SPEAKER_03]: And it's become a huge problem,

[00:21:01] [SPEAKER_03]: like throughout the country.

[00:21:03] [SPEAKER_03]: Not all, it doesn't always lead to violence,

[00:21:05] [SPEAKER_03]: but in this case, unfortunately,

[00:21:06] [SPEAKER_03]: it did because after being confronted,

[00:21:09] [SPEAKER_03]: one of these three ended up

[00:21:11] [SPEAKER_03]: shooting Johnny.

[00:21:13] [SPEAKER_03]: He was shot in the chest

[00:21:15] [SPEAKER_03]: and he died at the hospital later on.

[00:21:17] [SPEAKER_03]: But I'm very happy to announce

[00:21:19] [SPEAKER_03]: that after months of searching,

[00:21:21] [SPEAKER_03]: the police have made three arrests in that case.

[00:21:24] [SPEAKER_03]: They arrested 18-year-old Robert Barcelot

[00:21:28] [SPEAKER_03]: of Huntington Park,

[00:21:29] [SPEAKER_03]: as well as 18-year-old Sergio Estrada

[00:21:32] [SPEAKER_03]: and 18-year-old Leonel Gatirez

[00:21:35] [SPEAKER_03]: of Los Angeles County.

[00:21:38] [SPEAKER_03]: And they've all been arrested for murder.

[00:21:40] [SPEAKER_03]: Obviously, so we can talk about that in a second,

[00:21:42] [SPEAKER_03]: but 22-year-old Frank Alano

[00:21:44] [SPEAKER_03]: was also arrested as an accessory to the crime.

[00:21:47] [SPEAKER_03]: He's from Englewood.

[00:21:48] [SPEAKER_03]: So there's been four arrests.

[00:21:50] [SPEAKER_03]: And I think if this is a situation where

[00:21:55] [SPEAKER_03]: you might be wondering why are they all charged with murder

[00:21:57] [SPEAKER_03]: if only one of them shot him?

[00:22:00] [SPEAKER_03]: We could be seeing something like a felony murder case here.

[00:22:03] [SPEAKER_03]: Do you want to explain what that is?

[00:22:06] [SPEAKER_02]: A felony murder case is basically the rule

[00:22:10] [SPEAKER_02]: which states that if you are involved

[00:22:13] [SPEAKER_02]: in the commission of certain criminal acts,

[00:22:17] [SPEAKER_02]: certain types of felonies

[00:22:18] [SPEAKER_02]: that are so inherently dangerous

[00:22:21] [SPEAKER_02]: that a person could reasonably expect someone to die

[00:22:24] [SPEAKER_02]: as a result of that felony.

[00:22:26] [SPEAKER_02]: If you were involved in such a felony

[00:22:28] [SPEAKER_02]: and if indeed someone does die

[00:22:30] [SPEAKER_02]: in the commission of that felony,

[00:22:32] [SPEAKER_02]: you could be charged with murder

[00:22:35] [SPEAKER_02]: even though you did not kill that person yourself.

[00:22:39] [SPEAKER_02]: The classic example would be

[00:22:41] [SPEAKER_02]: if Ania and I are involved in a bank robbery.

[00:22:44] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm the getaway driver.

[00:22:47] [SPEAKER_02]: I pull up, she goes into the bank

[00:22:49] [SPEAKER_02]: and while robbing the bank,

[00:22:52] [SPEAKER_02]: she shoots a guard and the guard dies.

[00:22:55] [SPEAKER_02]: I could also be charged with the murder of that guard

[00:22:58] [SPEAKER_02]: because I should have realized

[00:23:00] [SPEAKER_02]: that the act of robbing a bank is so dangerous.

[00:23:03] [SPEAKER_02]: That something like that could have happened.

[00:23:06] [SPEAKER_03]: Yes.

[00:23:07] [SPEAKER_03]: And my understanding is that in California,

[00:23:10] [SPEAKER_03]: theft of a catalytic converter

[00:23:13] [SPEAKER_03]: in most cases would qualify as grand theft,

[00:23:15] [SPEAKER_03]: which is a felony.

[00:23:17] [SPEAKER_03]: Now I don't know if your opinion is different.

[00:23:20] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know that grand theft always counts

[00:23:22] [SPEAKER_03]: as a violent, inherently dangerous felony.

[00:23:25] [SPEAKER_03]: But in this case, obviously if they were packing heat,

[00:23:29] [SPEAKER_03]: then there was the possibility

[00:23:31] [SPEAKER_03]: that someone could get murdered.

[00:23:33] [SPEAKER_03]: So I'm just glad that there might be some resolution

[00:23:36] [SPEAKER_03]: on the horizon in that situation

[00:23:38] [SPEAKER_03]: and we'll be curious to see how it all turns out.

[00:23:40] [SPEAKER_03]: Of course, these men are innocent until proven guilty,

[00:23:43] [SPEAKER_03]: but it's certainly, I think from what we saw,

[00:23:47] [SPEAKER_03]: the reaction from Johnny Wachter's friends and family,

[00:23:50] [SPEAKER_03]: they're certainly happy that there have been arrests made.

[00:23:54] [SPEAKER_02]: So are we ready for this other one?

[00:23:56] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, this is going to be something a little different.

[00:23:58] [SPEAKER_03]: We should preface it.

[00:23:58] [SPEAKER_03]: So we both followed this case separately, I think.

[00:24:03] [SPEAKER_03]: We just sort of saw it separately

[00:24:04] [SPEAKER_03]: and we're just like haunted by it.

[00:24:06] [SPEAKER_03]: And it's not a traditional murder,

[00:24:09] [SPEAKER_03]: but it does involve some very interesting legal wrangling.

[00:24:13] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, it's an interesting court case.

[00:24:15] [SPEAKER_02]: And it happened in the state of Florida.

[00:24:18] [SPEAKER_02]: And I stress that because Florida,

[00:24:22] [SPEAKER_02]: for whatever its strengths and weaknesses might be

[00:24:24] [SPEAKER_02]: in your mind, they have incredible laws

[00:24:27] [SPEAKER_02]: giving wide access to court papers and court documents.

[00:24:31] [SPEAKER_03]: You can beat the heat if you beat the charges too.

[00:24:34] [SPEAKER_02]: What?

[00:24:35] [SPEAKER_03]: That's what Taylor Swift said.

[00:24:36] [SPEAKER_03]: Never mind, don't go ahead.

[00:24:37] [SPEAKER_02]: What are you talking about?

[00:24:39] [SPEAKER_03]: We're talking about Florida,

[00:24:40] [SPEAKER_03]: so I got the Florida song in my head.

[00:24:42] [SPEAKER_03]: It's from... Just move on.

[00:24:45] [SPEAKER_02]: Because of these open record laws

[00:24:48] [SPEAKER_02]: and sunshine laws in Florida,

[00:24:50] [SPEAKER_02]: very easy to get court documents.

[00:24:51] [SPEAKER_02]: So I was able to get a bunch of the court documents

[00:24:54] [SPEAKER_02]: in this case.

[00:24:55] [SPEAKER_03]: I wish more states were like Florida in that respect.

[00:24:58] [SPEAKER_03]: I wish Indiana was more like Florida.

[00:24:59] [SPEAKER_03]: I wish everywhere was like Florida

[00:25:01] [SPEAKER_03]: when it comes to their excellent sunshine laws.

[00:25:03] [SPEAKER_02]: So this involves a man named Jeffrey Piccolo.

[00:25:07] [SPEAKER_02]: He and his wife and his mother

[00:25:10] [SPEAKER_02]: are on some sort of a vacation trip to Florida

[00:25:14] [SPEAKER_02]: at a Disney resort.

[00:25:17] [SPEAKER_02]: And while they're there,

[00:25:19] [SPEAKER_02]: they go to a restaurant called Raglan Road

[00:25:23] [SPEAKER_02]: and they talk to the waiter there

[00:25:25] [SPEAKER_02]: and they indicate that Mr. Piccolo's wife

[00:25:31] [SPEAKER_02]: has some pretty severe food allergies.

[00:25:35] [SPEAKER_02]: And she can only eat food

[00:25:37] [SPEAKER_02]: that doesn't have any of these allergens in it.

[00:25:41] [SPEAKER_02]: And the waiter promises no problem,

[00:25:45] [SPEAKER_02]: no problem at all.

[00:25:47] [SPEAKER_02]: We can serve you food

[00:25:47] [SPEAKER_02]: that doesn't have these allergens.

[00:25:49] [SPEAKER_02]: That's not an issue.

[00:25:51] [SPEAKER_02]: They still express some concerns.

[00:25:53] [SPEAKER_02]: The way to goes back checks with the chef

[00:25:56] [SPEAKER_02]: and the chef further guarantees this food is safe.

[00:26:01] [SPEAKER_02]: So the meal is served.

[00:26:03] [SPEAKER_02]: They all eat it afterwards.

[00:26:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Jeffrey goes back to his room.

[00:26:09] [SPEAKER_02]: His wife and his mother-in-law are going to go shopping.

[00:26:14] [SPEAKER_02]: They end up separating for at least briefly

[00:26:16] [SPEAKER_02]: to go to separate stores.

[00:26:19] [SPEAKER_02]: And then unfortunately,

[00:26:21] [SPEAKER_02]: Mr. Piccolo's wife begins suffering an allergic reaction

[00:26:26] [SPEAKER_02]: to some of the food

[00:26:27] [SPEAKER_02]: because the assurances of the waiter were not valid once.

[00:26:32] [SPEAKER_02]: And there were some allergens in the food

[00:26:34] [SPEAKER_02]: and she is rushed to a hospital where she dies alone.

[00:26:38] [SPEAKER_03]: So her name was Dr. Kanakporn Tangsuon

[00:26:43] [SPEAKER_03]: who also went by Amy.

[00:26:45] [SPEAKER_03]: So that is incredibly tragic.

[00:26:47] [SPEAKER_02]: She dies alone.

[00:26:49] [SPEAKER_03]: I can't even imagine what she had to be going through

[00:26:54] [SPEAKER_03]: in that moment

[00:26:54] [SPEAKER_03]: but also what her family has gone through since.

[00:26:56] [SPEAKER_03]: That's just a horrifying story.

[00:26:58] [SPEAKER_02]: It's a horrifying story.

[00:27:00] [SPEAKER_02]: And so now Mr. Piccolo has filed a lawsuit

[00:27:06] [SPEAKER_02]: against Disney for this

[00:27:09] [SPEAKER_02]: because this restaurant was on Disney's property.

[00:27:12] [SPEAKER_02]: And so this raises,

[00:27:14] [SPEAKER_02]: well first of all,

[00:27:15] [SPEAKER_02]: it's some sources said he was suing for $50,000.

[00:27:21] [SPEAKER_02]: He actually was suing for more than $50,000.

[00:27:25] [SPEAKER_02]: The actual language of the lawsuit said

[00:27:27] [SPEAKER_02]: he was suing for an amount over $50,000.

[00:27:31] [SPEAKER_02]: And that's kind of just a jurisdictional thing.

[00:27:33] [SPEAKER_02]: If you want your case to be heard in a certain court,

[00:27:37] [SPEAKER_02]: you have to be asking for damages over a certain amount.

[00:27:40] [SPEAKER_02]: He wanted it in a certain court

[00:27:41] [SPEAKER_02]: so he indicated my damages over that amount.

[00:27:44] [SPEAKER_03]: I just say that I'm not trying to be salty about this

[00:27:48] [SPEAKER_03]: but I feel like there is a real problem

[00:27:50] [SPEAKER_03]: with legal illiteracy amongst the general press

[00:27:54] [SPEAKER_03]: because reporters are running around,

[00:27:56] [SPEAKER_03]: they're busy,

[00:27:57] [SPEAKER_03]: they're trying to file something quickly as possible

[00:27:59] [SPEAKER_03]: and they look at that and they say $50,000, got it.

[00:28:02] [SPEAKER_03]: And then that's it.

[00:28:03] [SPEAKER_03]: And then that just gets in the bloodstream

[00:28:05] [SPEAKER_03]: and everyone starts repeating something that's not a fact.

[00:28:07] [SPEAKER_03]: And again, we're all capable of this.

[00:28:09] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm not calling out any specific reporters.

[00:28:11] [SPEAKER_03]: It's a structural issue,

[00:28:12] [SPEAKER_03]: not one person being bad at their jobs.

[00:28:14] [SPEAKER_02]: But that's one thing that makes Florida so great

[00:28:17] [SPEAKER_02]: because you can actually go and look at the actual legal documents

[00:28:20] [SPEAKER_02]: available online and you can get the actual facts for yourself.

[00:28:24] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think it's important to stress

[00:28:27] [SPEAKER_02]: that a lawsuit like that were basically saying

[00:28:29] [SPEAKER_02]: we were promised that there wouldn't be allergens in the food,

[00:28:33] [SPEAKER_02]: allergens were in the food, my wife died.

[00:28:36] [SPEAKER_02]: And she died again, she died alone.

[00:28:38] [SPEAKER_02]: This was a woman who was loved and she died alone

[00:28:41] [SPEAKER_02]: because of what happened.

[00:28:43] [SPEAKER_02]: One of the reasons you file a lawsuit like this

[00:28:47] [SPEAKER_02]: is not just to make yourself whole

[00:28:50] [SPEAKER_02]: and not just to get damages for yourself

[00:28:54] [SPEAKER_02]: for what happened to this person you love,

[00:28:56] [SPEAKER_02]: but you would hope that this lawsuit would attract attention

[00:29:00] [SPEAKER_02]: and that maybe other people who own restaurants

[00:29:04] [SPEAKER_02]: will look at this and say we need to be more careful.

[00:29:07] [SPEAKER_02]: And you would hope maybe behaviors are changed and lives are saved.

[00:29:12] [SPEAKER_02]: So this is one of the reasons why I think people do file suits like this.

[00:29:16] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and letting other people, severe allergies know that

[00:29:19] [SPEAKER_03]: you can do everything right, you can check,

[00:29:22] [SPEAKER_03]: you can double check, everyone can check,

[00:29:24] [SPEAKER_03]: and it can still go badly.

[00:29:26] [SPEAKER_03]: So maybe assess your risks

[00:29:28] [SPEAKER_03]: and maybe consider not eating at a place

[00:29:31] [SPEAKER_03]: unless you're absolutely certain and you trust them completely.

[00:29:36] [SPEAKER_02]: And so the reason why we are talking about this

[00:29:40] [SPEAKER_02]: is because the Disney company filed a response to this suit saying,

[00:29:48] [SPEAKER_02]: well, Mr. Piccolo cannot sue us in court

[00:29:52] [SPEAKER_02]: because years ago he signed up for a Disney Plus free trial subscription

[00:30:00] [SPEAKER_02]: and the fine print of that says that if you have any problems with Disney

[00:30:06] [SPEAKER_02]: from here on out, you have to settle them with arbitration.

[00:30:11] [SPEAKER_02]: And also he bought a ticket to Epcot which had some similar language.

[00:30:16] [SPEAKER_02]: And just the idea that all of us sign up for things where we don't read the fine print,

[00:30:25] [SPEAKER_02]: all of us do that whether it's Disney Plus or what have you.

[00:30:28] [SPEAKER_02]: And so the idea that there is something in that fine print

[00:30:33] [SPEAKER_02]: which would cause you to lose valuable legal rights for the rest of your life,

[00:30:37] [SPEAKER_02]: I think that strikes most people as being outrageous.

[00:30:41] [SPEAKER_03]: dystopian.

[00:30:42] [SPEAKER_02]: And this is, it's a stupid argument and it's an offensive argument.

[00:30:50] [SPEAKER_02]: It's a sort of argument that makes people hate lawyers.

[00:30:54] [SPEAKER_02]: And it shocks the conscience and it's also for a variety of reasons,

[00:31:01] [SPEAKER_02]: it's not a very good legal argument.

[00:31:04] [SPEAKER_02]: For one reason, let's a rare non-serial example involving Anya.

[00:31:11] [SPEAKER_02]: Let's say Anya years ago in that dark period of her life before she met me,

[00:31:17] [SPEAKER_02]: before murder sheet existed, she made some sort of a contract where she gave up a certain right.

[00:31:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, years past she meets me, we create the murder sheet,

[00:31:31] [SPEAKER_02]: she represents half of the murder sheet.

[00:31:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Could you argue that Anya is representative of the murder sheet,

[00:31:40] [SPEAKER_02]: gave up a right years ago when she just representing herself signed a contract?

[00:31:45] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't think you could because of the time she signed the earlier contract,

[00:31:49] [SPEAKER_02]: murder sheet didn't exist.

[00:31:50] [SPEAKER_02]: And at the time, Mr. Piccolo agreed to this free streaming subscription,

[00:31:58] [SPEAKER_02]: he was not yet the representative of his wife's estate because his wife didn't have an estate.

[00:32:03] [SPEAKER_03]: Because she wasn't dead.

[00:32:04] [SPEAKER_02]: So how could he at that time have been giving up rights for an organization or for an entity

[00:32:11] [SPEAKER_02]: that did not yet exist?

[00:32:12] [SPEAKER_02]: It doesn't make any sense.

[00:32:14] [SPEAKER_02]: If you jump to the conclusion that yes, he did give up rights for the rest of his life

[00:32:19] [SPEAKER_02]: when he signed up for this streaming service,

[00:32:22] [SPEAKER_02]: then okay, I don't agree with you.

[00:32:24] [SPEAKER_02]: But at most he could only give up the rights that he was able to give up at that time.

[00:32:31] [SPEAKER_02]: And he was not the representative of the estate at the time.

[00:32:34] [SPEAKER_02]: So it's a stupid argument.

[00:32:36] [SPEAKER_02]: And there are other arguments about it too,

[00:32:38] [SPEAKER_02]: but I think that is the one that I personally found most compelling.

[00:32:42] [SPEAKER_02]: So I think this argument was doomed,

[00:32:46] [SPEAKER_02]: this argument by Disney was doomed to failure.

[00:32:49] [SPEAKER_02]: And in Mr. Piccolo's attorneys filed a pretty devastating rebuttal to that argument.

[00:32:56] [SPEAKER_02]: And now subsequently the Disney company has come out and said,

[00:33:01] [SPEAKER_02]: well, we care about people's humanity.

[00:33:04] [SPEAKER_02]: So we're just going to walk away from that streaming argument.

[00:33:08] [SPEAKER_02]: We're going to forget about it.

[00:33:12] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think I mentioned earlier that one point of a lawsuit like this

[00:33:17] [SPEAKER_02]: from the plaintiff's point of view is we want to call attention to a problem.

[00:33:22] [SPEAKER_02]: We want to call attention to the problem

[00:33:23] [SPEAKER_02]: of people getting allergens in their food and passing away.

[00:33:27] [SPEAKER_02]: So maybe behavior can change.

[00:33:29] [SPEAKER_02]: I think also from the defendant's point of view in this matter,

[00:33:34] [SPEAKER_02]: they also want to attract attention.

[00:33:36] [SPEAKER_02]: And they want you to realize that if you sue Disney,

[00:33:41] [SPEAKER_02]: they are going to do everything they can to make that experience as difficult for you as possible.

[00:33:48] [SPEAKER_02]: And they are going to require you to have to spend time in trouble

[00:33:53] [SPEAKER_02]: to answer ludicrous arguments.

[00:33:56] [SPEAKER_02]: Because yes, they did walk away from that argument,

[00:33:58] [SPEAKER_02]: but they waited until after the plaintiff had already prepared

[00:34:04] [SPEAKER_02]: and filed a lengthy rebuttal to it.

[00:34:06] [SPEAKER_02]: So they were going to lose the argument anyway.

[00:34:10] [SPEAKER_02]: So they don't deserve any credit for that.

[00:34:13] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, people think, oh, it's a backlash.

[00:34:14] [SPEAKER_03]: And that's why they're finding their humanity again.

[00:34:17] [SPEAKER_03]: But they've already wasted this man's time and money.

[00:34:22] [SPEAKER_03]: Corporations are not your friend.

[00:34:24] [SPEAKER_02]: And they want you to realize that if you sue Disney,

[00:34:27] [SPEAKER_02]: you're going to have to spend time in trouble responding

[00:34:30] [SPEAKER_02]: to ridiculous arguments like this that wouldn't hold any water.

[00:34:34] [SPEAKER_02]: So that's where things stand there.

[00:34:36] [SPEAKER_03]: I want to ask you about one thing.

[00:34:39] [SPEAKER_03]: This is getting into the weeds a little bit,

[00:34:42] [SPEAKER_03]: but I know I'm sure people will.

[00:34:44] [SPEAKER_03]: Disney has a lot of very, very intense fans,

[00:34:49] [SPEAKER_03]: people saying online.

[00:34:51] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, Disney did not own specifically this pub where Amy was exposed to allergens

[00:35:01] [SPEAKER_03]: and then later died this raglan road pub.

[00:35:05] [SPEAKER_03]: It's owned by these entrepreneurs who are then operating in Disney.

[00:35:09] [SPEAKER_03]: Can you explain why that's not really relevant?

[00:35:12] [SPEAKER_02]: That's an interesting argument.

[00:35:14] [SPEAKER_02]: And there is some wiggle room there.

[00:35:17] [SPEAKER_02]: The argument from the plaintiff side would be,

[00:35:21] [SPEAKER_02]: well, they were operating there with the express control of Disney,

[00:35:25] [SPEAKER_02]: with express authorization of Disney.

[00:35:27] [SPEAKER_02]: So there's like an agency thing.

[00:35:28] [SPEAKER_02]: So Disney would still be responsible.

[00:35:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Obviously the Disney side would try to argue otherwise.

[00:35:34] [SPEAKER_02]: So that's enough.

[00:35:35] [SPEAKER_02]: If they wanted to make that argument and say,

[00:35:38] [SPEAKER_02]: well, we shouldn't be responsible, it should just be their restaurant.

[00:35:41] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't think I'd find that argument compelling,

[00:35:43] [SPEAKER_02]: but it would certainly seem more valid and made in good faith

[00:35:46] [SPEAKER_02]: as opposed to what they actually did do.

[00:35:49] [SPEAKER_03]: What they did do just sounds like something out of a horrifying dystopian novel to me.

[00:35:53] [SPEAKER_03]: It's like, why?

[00:35:55] [SPEAKER_03]: I guess I was surprised because I certainly don't,

[00:35:58] [SPEAKER_03]: I certainly realized that these multinational corporations are not your friend

[00:36:02] [SPEAKER_03]: and will do whatever they can in order to not give up any money to you

[00:36:08] [SPEAKER_03]: because they don't want to set some sort of trend there.

[00:36:11] [SPEAKER_03]: But this is a, I'm looking at their market capitalization right now.

[00:36:16] [SPEAKER_03]: They're at $162 billion.

[00:36:20] [SPEAKER_03]: This is a drop in the bucket for them.

[00:36:22] [SPEAKER_03]: So you might be wondering why take the PR hit when it comes to this

[00:36:28] [SPEAKER_03]: because they've gotten a lot of backlash for it.

[00:36:30] [SPEAKER_03]: Because I think a lot of people had my reaction where that's horrifying.

[00:36:33] [SPEAKER_03]: So I like, I check yes on the Apple terms of service.

[00:36:37] [SPEAKER_03]: So then an iPhone truck can run me over while the driver's drunk.

[00:36:41] [SPEAKER_03]: And that's fine because I said I would go to arbitration no matter what.

[00:36:45] [SPEAKER_03]: Like what?

[00:36:46] [SPEAKER_02]: But if your company, if you want people to be signing up to Disney Plus

[00:36:52] [SPEAKER_02]: to watch the latest Star Wars show or whatever,

[00:36:55] [SPEAKER_02]: you don't want stuff like this out there because it's going to make them think, well maybe.

[00:36:58] [SPEAKER_03]: Mickey Mouse will be allowed to come to your house and kill your whole family.

[00:37:02] [SPEAKER_03]: It's what you signed up for bud.

[00:37:04] [SPEAKER_03]: It's like, what?

[00:37:05] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, but I guess, you know, it seems like they're trying to be too cute by half.

[00:37:10] [SPEAKER_03]: But I guess like are you-

[00:37:12] [SPEAKER_02]: It was a bad argument.

[00:37:13] [SPEAKER_02]: It was going to fall.

[00:37:14] [SPEAKER_03]: Do you, do you think that they just didn't anticipate getting this much of a backlash

[00:37:17] [SPEAKER_03]: though?

[00:37:17] [SPEAKER_03]: Do you think they thought no one was watching?

[00:37:19] [SPEAKER_03]: Because it does seem like a pretty bold argument to make from a marketing perspective.

[00:37:24] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't think they care.

[00:37:25] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, they don't care.

[00:37:26] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, you're right.

[00:37:27] [SPEAKER_03]: They don't care.

[00:37:27] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, people, you know, a few days of online outrage that is then quickly forgotten will

[00:37:32] [SPEAKER_03]: be not, not that much of a problem for such a huge company.

[00:37:35] [SPEAKER_02]: We're upset about it now.

[00:37:38] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm sure a month from now there'll be fresh outrageous for us to be upset about.

[00:37:42] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:37:43] [SPEAKER_03]: So it's like, it doesn't really hurt them and it just drags out a lawsuit longer.

[00:37:47] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.

[00:37:48] [SPEAKER_02]: And if you make lawsuits against you as hard as possible to win and fight,

[00:37:53] [SPEAKER_02]: you're gonna have fewer lawsuits against you because there may be other people out there

[00:37:56] [SPEAKER_02]: who may think they have grounds to sue Disney for some reason and they look at things like this

[00:38:01] [SPEAKER_02]: and say, I can't afford this.

[00:38:02] [SPEAKER_03]: Yes.

[00:38:04] [SPEAKER_03]: I think that's very important to stress because I think sometimes people just say, well,

[00:38:08] [SPEAKER_03]: why doesn't this person just sue them?

[00:38:11] [SPEAKER_03]: It's like that is not just a thing you wake up and do.

[00:38:13] [SPEAKER_03]: It's very expensive.

[00:38:16] [SPEAKER_03]: Most honest lawyers will tell you that if you can avoid a lawsuit, if you can file in a lawsuit,

[00:38:22] [SPEAKER_03]: you'll be better off because it is very difficult, time consuming, energy draining, money draining.

[00:38:31] [SPEAKER_03]: It's a mess.

[00:38:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Most people simply can't afford to hire an attorney or law firm to handle complex

[00:38:37] [SPEAKER_02]: several litigation.

[00:38:38] [SPEAKER_02]: So for the average person, most of these lawsuits would only be taken on what's called a contingency

[00:38:44] [SPEAKER_02]: fee basis where a lawyer would say, well, you don't want to pay me only a limited amount now or

[00:38:50] [SPEAKER_02]: maybe pay me nothing now.

[00:38:51] [SPEAKER_02]: But afterwards after we win and settle, I'll get a percentage of that.

[00:38:56] [SPEAKER_02]: And lawyers might be less inclined to make an arrangement like that if they realize,

[00:39:02] [SPEAKER_02]: well, I'm going to have to work hundreds and hundreds of hours

[00:39:06] [SPEAKER_02]: responding to frivolous arguments in order to get anywhere with this case.

[00:39:10] [SPEAKER_02]: So just a way to discourage lawsuits.

[00:39:12] [SPEAKER_03]: Absolutely.

[00:39:13] [SPEAKER_03]: Well said.

[00:39:14] [SPEAKER_03]: And yeah, I think that's important to know it's not a murder, but it's still an interesting death

[00:39:17] [SPEAKER_03]: case.

[00:39:17] [SPEAKER_03]: And it kind of shows you some of the legal wrangling that can occur that maybe does

[00:39:22] [SPEAKER_03]: not come to most people's minds when they think of something like this.

[00:39:29] [SPEAKER_03]: So I guess we're out of the informational portion of the show.

[00:39:34] [SPEAKER_03]: So I think now it's time for a very special time for Kevin and I to discuss our T-shirt

[00:39:39] [SPEAKER_03]: business that we've started together.

[00:39:44] [SPEAKER_03]: And these shirts, folks, are just beautiful examples of craftsmanship.

[00:39:50] [SPEAKER_03]: You're going to love it.

[00:39:51] [SPEAKER_03]: They have the words, murder sheet people on them because I think if you buy them,

[00:39:56] [SPEAKER_03]: you're definitely a murder sheet person, definitely a person who listens to the murder

[00:39:59] [SPEAKER_03]: sheet and supports the murder sheet with merch.

[00:40:02] [SPEAKER_03]: And they're very nice, very well printed.

[00:40:05] [SPEAKER_03]: And this time I'm going to tell you where to actually get them.

[00:40:09] [SPEAKER_03]: That is at murdersheetshop.com.

[00:40:12] [SPEAKER_03]: That's M-U-R-D-E-R-S-H-E-E-T-S-H-O-P.com.

[00:40:19] [SPEAKER_03]: And you'll see that they're just they're nice.

[00:40:22] [SPEAKER_03]: They pair.

[00:40:24] [SPEAKER_03]: We saw some people in our Facebook group talking about them.

[00:40:27] [SPEAKER_03]: Like, do these things shrink?

[00:40:28] [SPEAKER_03]: Are they terrible?

[00:40:29] [SPEAKER_03]: I was like, oh geez, what are they going to say?

[00:40:31] [SPEAKER_03]: But they all said they're true to size and they don't shrink and they're just nice

[00:40:39] [SPEAKER_03]: shirts that frankly I think a lot of people who bought them have had good things happen

[00:40:43] [SPEAKER_03]: in their lives.

[00:40:45] [SPEAKER_02]: So kudos to you because we've gotten a lot of comments for the weeks when Anya does

[00:40:50] [SPEAKER_02]: the ads, sales always plummet and people say we feel Anya doesn't want us to buy the shirts.

[00:40:57] [SPEAKER_03]: That was perhaps my favorite comment in our Facebook group of all time.

[00:41:01] [SPEAKER_03]: One person said that, well first of all I think it's your favorite comment because one person

[00:41:06] [SPEAKER_03]: said that Kevin was carrying the show, the carrying the murder sheet because of his

[00:41:10] [SPEAKER_03]: his his t-shirt sales on the cheat sheet.

[00:41:13] [SPEAKER_03]: And Kevin has been quoting that all week.

[00:41:16] [SPEAKER_03]: He's very proud of this.

[00:41:17] [SPEAKER_03]: He keeps saying his back hurts because he's tired of carrying the show.

[00:41:22] [SPEAKER_03]: So just know that to that person you created a lot of delight on his part.

[00:41:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, this is better from you.

[00:41:29] [SPEAKER_02]: I'd like to see a little bit more enthusiasm.

[00:41:31] [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, okay.

[00:41:32] [SPEAKER_02]: And you have only choice.

[00:41:33] [SPEAKER_02]: What do these shirts look like?

[00:41:34] [SPEAKER_02]: They don't just have words on them.

[00:41:37] [SPEAKER_03]: Word salad, like a legal filing.

[00:41:39] [SPEAKER_03]: No, they have the murder sheet people on them and then in the background is our

[00:41:43] [SPEAKER_03]: podcast logo and it looks pretty great.

[00:41:45] [SPEAKER_03]: The colors came out really well.

[00:41:47] [SPEAKER_03]: Kind of that classic.

[00:41:48] [SPEAKER_02]: When you say it has murder sheet people on it, it's not like a picture of you and me.

[00:41:57] [SPEAKER_03]: It's like Mount Rushmore but with our faces.

[00:42:00] [SPEAKER_03]: No, it's like the words murder sheet people.

[00:42:04] [SPEAKER_02]: And an image and an image but not of us.

[00:42:07] [SPEAKER_03]: I think you're over complicating this.

[00:42:09] [SPEAKER_03]: I think they get that and if they want to look for themselves,

[00:42:11] [SPEAKER_03]: they can go to murdersheetshop.com.

[00:42:14] [SPEAKER_02]: An image of the shirt will be displayed.

[00:42:18] [SPEAKER_03]: Do you envision us ever doing a shirt with our faces on it?

[00:42:22] [SPEAKER_03]: And no context, no words.

[00:42:24] [SPEAKER_03]: Just your face and my face.

[00:42:25] [SPEAKER_03]: That would be so creepy.

[00:42:30] [SPEAKER_01]: I think that would look...

[00:42:31] [SPEAKER_01]: I think an image of you on the shirt would be great.

[00:42:34] [SPEAKER_01]: I'd buy that shirt.

[00:42:35] [SPEAKER_03]: So just me.

[00:42:36] [SPEAKER_03]: So then people will be like, wow,

[00:42:38] [SPEAKER_03]: Onya really lost in this being super self-aggrandizing.

[00:42:41] [SPEAKER_03]: She pushed Kevin out of this shirt opportunity.

[00:42:44] [SPEAKER_03]: People will get a bad vibe.

[00:42:46] [SPEAKER_03]: People will get a bad vibe from me if we just do my face.

[00:42:49] [SPEAKER_03]: That would just look insane.

[00:42:51] [SPEAKER_03]: Mega Lemaniac.

[00:42:52] [SPEAKER_02]: And also you say we started a t-shirt business?

[00:42:55] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if I like...

[00:42:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Do we have a t-shirt business?

[00:42:58] [SPEAKER_03]: You're giving me notes right now?

[00:43:01] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm just trying to be...

[00:43:05] [SPEAKER_02]: We're just trying to help each other out here.

[00:43:06] [SPEAKER_02]: So critical.

[00:43:07] [SPEAKER_02]: We're among friends.

[00:43:08] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh my God, I can't win.

[00:43:11] [SPEAKER_04]: I pulled out all the stops with that ad.

[00:43:15] [SPEAKER_02]: It was your best one yet.

[00:43:16] [SPEAKER_04]: It's my best one yet, so I'm getting better.

[00:43:18] [SPEAKER_02]: So I started with the praise,

[00:43:20] [SPEAKER_02]: but then I'm letting you know that I think you can do better.

[00:43:22] [SPEAKER_03]: Things I could do better.

[00:43:23] [SPEAKER_02]: But see, I specify that about we don't really have a t-shirt business because...

[00:43:28] [SPEAKER_03]: We have a t-shirt business.

[00:43:29] [SPEAKER_02]: Earlier this week, we were talking with a friend

[00:43:32] [SPEAKER_02]: and based on what you were saying about this,

[00:43:35] [SPEAKER_02]: they thought we were putting the t-shirts in our basement.

[00:43:38] [SPEAKER_02]: And we don't do that.

[00:43:39] [SPEAKER_03]: We don't even have a basement.

[00:43:40] [SPEAKER_03]: And second of all, in the business of selling t-shirts,

[00:43:46] [SPEAKER_03]: we have a t-shirt business.

[00:43:49] [SPEAKER_03]: Okay.

[00:43:50] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, there's a lot of t-shirts in our house

[00:43:54] [SPEAKER_03]: that we're trying to offload,

[00:43:55] [SPEAKER_03]: so I feel like we have a t-shirt business.

[00:43:56] [SPEAKER_03]: Don't say that!

[00:43:58] [SPEAKER_03]: Trying to get them out of here,

[00:43:59] [SPEAKER_03]: no, I'm just kidding.

[00:44:00] [SPEAKER_02]: No, it's a valuable product.

[00:44:02] [SPEAKER_02]: We have t-shirts that we're offering as a service to the public.

[00:44:06] [SPEAKER_02]: We're not trying to offload them.

[00:44:08] [SPEAKER_02]: I think your ad is getting worse and worse.

[00:44:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, you know what? That's your fault.

[00:44:13] [SPEAKER_02]: Have a good weekend, everybody.

[00:44:14] [SPEAKER_02]: We're going to stop before Anya makes it even worse.

[00:44:21] [SPEAKER_02]: Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet.

[00:44:24] [SPEAKER_02]: If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover,

[00:44:28] [SPEAKER_02]: please email us at murdersheet at gmail.com.

[00:44:33] [SPEAKER_02]: If you have actionable information about an unsolved crime,

[00:44:38] [SPEAKER_02]: please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[00:44:40] [SPEAKER_03]: If you're interested in joining our Patreon,

[00:44:45] [SPEAKER_03]: that's available at www.patreon.com.

[00:44:51] [SPEAKER_03]: If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests,

[00:44:55] [SPEAKER_03]: you can do so at www.buymeacoffee.com.

[00:45:02] [SPEAKER_03]: We very much appreciate any support.

[00:45:05] [SPEAKER_02]: Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee,

[00:45:08] [SPEAKER_02]: who composed the music for the Murder Sheet,

[00:45:11] [SPEAKER_02]: and who you can find on the web at kevintg.com.

[00:45:16] [SPEAKER_03]: If you're looking to talk with other listeners about a case we've covered,

[00:45:20] [SPEAKER_03]: you can join the Murder Sheet Discussion Group on Facebook.

[00:45:23] [SPEAKER_03]: We mostly focus our time on research and reporting,

[00:45:27] [SPEAKER_03]: so we're not on social media much.

[00:45:29] [SPEAKER_03]: We do try to check our email account,

[00:45:32] [SPEAKER_03]: but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages.

[00:45:36] [SPEAKER_03]: Thanks again for listening.

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[00:47:04] [SPEAKER_03]: After you purchase, they ask you where you heard about them.

[00:47:07] [SPEAKER_03]: Please support our show and tell them we sent you.

[00:47:10] [SPEAKER_03]: Enhance your every day with Viah.