The Cheat Sheet: Art and Arrests

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[00:03:10] [SPEAKER_02] Content warning. This episode contains discussion of murder, rape, and other forms of violence. So today is Valentine's Day.

[00:03:20] [SPEAKER_01] Happy Valentine's Day, everybody.

[00:03:21] [SPEAKER_02] Happy Valentine's Day to you all. We hope you have a wonderful and romantic and nice day.

[00:03:26] [SPEAKER_01] And Anya thought it would be fun to honor the holiday in a very unromantic way.

[00:03:31] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. Well, I wanted to talk about, I thought since our cheat sheet falls on Valentine's Day, we can talk about crimes involving couples. I think we did this last Valentine's Day, but it wasn't a cheat sheet. But we tried to pick out cases that involve couples at the heart of them. All of these are either couples who were unfortunately murdered together or couples where there's a possibility that one of the members of the couple killed the other or had the other one killed.

[00:03:55] [SPEAKER_01] Or a couple who may or may not be implicated in a murder.

[00:03:59] [SPEAKER_02] Right. And so.

[00:04:01] [SPEAKER_01] These are all ongoing stories.

[00:04:03] [SPEAKER_02] Yes, they're all ongoing stories. And in addition to that, I thought it'd be good because, you know, this is a this is a dark side of, I think, you know, sometimes couples and whatnot that we need to talk about. But, you know, domestic violence is something that we all need to be aware of. This is a scourge in society and it's at the heart of, frankly, many cases that everyone talks about within true crime, domestic violence. And so I wanted to talk a little bit about the Bureau of Justice Statistics.

[00:04:33] [SPEAKER_02] They did a kind of a release of data around victim offender relationships in 2021. So pretty recently. And they tracked like close to 5000 female victims of murder and non negligent manslaughter in 2021. And they found that about 34 percent of them were killed by an intimate partner. So that's a third. That's a that's a significant, significant portion there. And, you know, women are much more likely to be killed by someone they know.

[00:05:03] [SPEAKER_02] And in this case, obviously, a lot of those people are intimate partners. So it's really important that we're aware of this in comparison of the approximately close to 18000 men murdered that year. Only six percent were killed by an intimate partner. But that's still a lot of people who faced violence and death at the hands of an intimate partner, even amongst the men. So this is something where I think it's important that we're all aware.

[00:05:29] [SPEAKER_02] If you know someone experiencing intimate partner violence, you know, try to pass them on some of this information. I'm going to provide if you yourself are experiencing intimate partner violence run. You know, nobody should be laying hands on you. No one should be being violent with you. That's not your fault. You deserve better and get out of there. And so the in the United States, the national domestic violence hotline is one eight hundred seven nine nine safe or seven two three three.

[00:05:58] [SPEAKER_02] Or you can actually text the word start to eight eight seven eight eight. Again, it's the national domestic violence hotline. And it's important to talk about this, even though it is very depressing. But I think if we're talking about couples and violence and murder, you have to you have to talk about domestic violence and agree. Absolutely. All right. Now let's get into the cases. My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist.

[00:06:25] [SPEAKER_01] And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney. And this is The Murder Sheet. We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews and deep dives into murder cases. We're The Murder Sheet.

[00:06:37] [SPEAKER_02] And this is The Cheat Sheet. Art and arrests.

[00:07:26] [SPEAKER_02] So our first case is actually not in the United States. It's out of France. And my sources for this were predominantly the BBC and The Independent. Now, let's make one thing clear. I think one thing Kevin and I learned from researching old cases is that when there is a flurry of media coverage around a case early on, some of the details early on can be wrong. And it's just the nature of the beast. That's the nature of journalism. Things get out. And oops, this turned out not to be true.

[00:07:55] [SPEAKER_02] So when we're talking about a case like this where it's still very early days and it's not really clear what happened and there's not really a concrete explanation yet, I think it's really important that we just keep an open mind. This is the information that's being reported right now, but that doesn't mean it's going to stay the same forever. And so we don't need to form any hard opinions. Is that fair to say? Fair enough.

[00:08:16] [SPEAKER_02] So this concerns the mysterious deaths of 62-year-old Andrew Cyril and 56-year-old Don Kerr. And this is a couple. They came from Britain. She was from the Scottish borders and he was from England. And they moved to France, specifically kind of a rural area north of Toulouse.

[00:08:42] [SPEAKER_02] I'm not even going to try to pronounce most of these French names because I will just sound like a very ignorant American that I am. So this case got some attention because Don's son, Callum, is an actor who appeared on the long-running British soap opera Hollyoaks. And a lot of the coverage is like kind of centered him, which I feel bad for him. I feel like that must be very uncomfortable where it's like Hollyoaks actor Callum's mother is dead. I don't know. I mean, that's what tabloids do. I get that.

[00:09:12] [SPEAKER_02] But it's just, you know, obviously this is a this is more about a horrific possible crime on some level rather than rather than that. But so the couple was found dead recently at their farmhouse where they lived again north of Toulouse. A neighbor was coming to do a dog walk with them. They didn't show up. They the neighbor stops by and finds Don's body.

[00:09:38] [SPEAKER_02] My understanding from the reports is mostly nude or entirely nude, either in the doorway or just outside the doorway of their home. So something horrible has obviously happened. She was found to have suffered trauma to the head, blows from either a sharp or blunt object. No signs of sexual assault. Mysteriously, a jewelry box is found near her. Then Andrew's body is subsequently found and he died of hanging. So no obvious defensive injuries from him.

[00:10:09] [SPEAKER_02] So what French police have been looking at is, is this a double homicide where you have a third party coming in and killing this couple? Or is this a murder suicide? So not not clear at this point. It's still pretty early. Obviously, some background on the couple. They were married in 2023 and they'd been living in this region of France for, I believe, about like five years.

[00:10:37] [SPEAKER_02] So they were not they were people say they were very well integrated into the community. They were part of a community of also British expats living in France. And Andrew had worked for years in financial crime prevention, different banks and things like that. Now, people have told the press in this kind of community that they were part of that there's no way this could be a murder suicide because they seemed so happy. They were doing well. They didn't say that, you know, they didn't think they had any money problems. They were traveling.

[00:11:06] [SPEAKER_02] I'm going to tell you this. And my heart goes out to people who knew them and are, you know, dealing with that grief on top of everything else. So please don't take this as a criticism of them because that's a horrible situation to have this happen to people, you know. But it doesn't matter what other people say in this situation. You have to go based on the evidence at the scene. You know, people are constantly doing things that you would never expect or totally irrational things. There can be stuff going on in people's lives that you, you know, would never even fathom.

[00:11:35] [SPEAKER_02] People can be in pain or angry or dealing with interpersonal problems or money problems that they don't let on. Some people are very good at keeping that side of them closed off. So when I see people talk about they never could have done this because of X, whether that's a murder or a suicide or anything shocking, I just throw that out. I don't care. I mean, it's just that doesn't mean anything to me. What do you think?

[00:12:01] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, I agree. You never really know what's going on in someone else's head. And all too often there are few, if any, warning signs when a person takes their own life. And also, as you say, it can be a very impulsive, sudden decision.

[00:12:18] [SPEAKER_02] Suicide is often very impulsive. It's often not planned out, which is contrary to what people think. But, no, again, I'm not saying that this involved a suicide. I think we just we don't know. The lack of defensive injuries is interesting. Earlier reports said that Andrew was gagged, which kind of almost indicates a homicide. But I've not really seen anywhere strongly confirming that. So, you know, I think it's up in the air.

[00:12:46] [SPEAKER_02] But ultimately, the police are not going to be dictated with how these people appeared on the outside. They're going to be looking at what does the scene tell us? You know, is there any indication that an outside person came in and did anything? And if there is, then we might be looking at a homicide. If there isn't, then it's going to be something different. I do know that CCTV footage from nearby found Andrew buying Euro lottery tickets and a chocolate bar.

[00:13:13] [SPEAKER_02] And people, again, this is in the reports from the media, heard him having some kind of heated conversation with someone on the phone. That could be totally innocuous. You know, that's not really necessarily a sign of anything. Or maybe there's indications of some tension, maybe some money issues. It's just too soon to say. So I think this is one of those things it's best to just kind of watch it, see how it develops. Police could come out tomorrow and say, actually, all those reports were wrong. We definitely found evidence of intruders and here's what happened.

[00:13:43] [SPEAKER_02] Or they could say, well, we ultimately didn't find anything. And that indicates a murder suicide. So obviously a very, very, very tragic situation either way. Heart goes out to the families. Both of these people had children, adult children. So, I mean, obviously just a horrific situation. And it's getting a lot of media attention, which I think can benefit because it raises awareness. And, you know, pushes the police to definitely work hard on it. But it's also a nightmare to deal with.

[00:14:10] [SPEAKER_02] And, you know, that's a horrible, horrible situation to find yourself in unexpectedly. And so, yeah, heart goes out to everyone involved in this. As podcasters, we try to stay hydrated so we don't sound like croaking toads on here. We don't want to do that to you guys. Clean, delicious water is the key. But it helps when you know for sure that you're drinking truly pure water. One thing that can be a bother is that extensive research by the Environmental Working Group finds that many homes in America can have harmful contaminants in their tap water.

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[00:19:16] [SPEAKER_01] Well, I'd like to move on if that's all right with you. Absolutely. And talk about a case much closer to home. It's a case out of New York and also, I guess, Brazil. So I guess it is actually another international case. And the source I primarily relied on for this was the New York Times. Not a source we use a lot, I guess, because most of the crimes we cover, for whatever reason, are not often featured in the New York Times.

[00:19:44] [SPEAKER_01] And also, I looked up, it involves a person being charged with a federal crime. And so I looked up some paperwork in the case on PACER. So I also use that as a source. So this involves a man named Brent Sykema and his husband, Daniel Sykema.

[00:20:08] [SPEAKER_01] Brent is, or rather was, a very prominent art dealer. And Brent and Daniel were going through a divorce. And by all accounts, this divorce was not going well or smoothly. I've seen it described as contentious.

[00:20:29] [SPEAKER_01] And if you've gone through a divorce or know somebody that's gone through a divorce, emotions often run very, very high.

[00:20:40] [SPEAKER_02] Lots of grievances.

[00:20:41] [SPEAKER_01] Lots of grievances. The distance between very passionate love and hate is sometimes not that far. And oftentimes there can be a lot of contentious and anger. And usually that passes because usually either the two of the two divorced parties are no longer part of each other's lives or they can move on and just be friends.

[00:21:08] [SPEAKER_01] In this case, though, that did not happen. Daniel Sykema actually hired someone. Rather, he's accused of hiring someone to kill his husband, Brent Sykema, the prominent art dealer. And there's the charging documents indicate that he made a number of payments to this person.

[00:21:35] [SPEAKER_01] This person was actually arrested for his involvement in the crime within days of the crime. I should say the murder happened in Brazil last year. And the deceased man, the art dealer, was 75 years old and he was stabbed to death.

[00:21:57] [SPEAKER_01] I should also note that Daniel Sykema's lawyer says that he is shocked by these accusations and maintains his innocence. And Daniel Sykema also has earlier written a memoir of his life, including a period where he worked as a male escort in Spain.

[00:22:25] [SPEAKER_01] And he actually wrote the memoirs called Ticket to Paradise.

[00:22:30] [SPEAKER_02] Okay. So this is a federal case now, you said?

[00:22:34] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:22:34] [SPEAKER_02] And that's because there's an international element to it?

[00:22:39] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. There's passport fraud, conspiracy to commit murder, and conspiracy to murder a person in a foreign country.

[00:22:46] [SPEAKER_02] Wow. I mean, this is horrible for... And it sounds like, I mean, from the article, it sounds like the murder victim was trying to spend more time with his teenage son. He had a lot to look forward to, it sounds like, and did not get to experience that. But as you said, and I've said this before on the show, I know I've never been divorced. I'm never going to be divorced. But I feel like it's a situation where, like, I don't even understand. Like, I get everyone's mad at each other during a divorce. Not always, but oftentimes. But, like, as you said, it passes.

[00:23:16] [SPEAKER_02] It's like a thunderstorm. Everyone, you know, it's like, ah, like all this stuff is going on. Everyone's ticked off. And then, as you said, you either move on or if you share children or there's some other reason or you still have a friendship, you know, you go with that. Why you would take away someone's life, but also, let's be honest, in the vast majority of these situations, wreck your own life. Why you would do that, I don't even understand. I can't even begin to understand that.

[00:23:45] [SPEAKER_01] But when you conspire to commit and murder to and you're, like, hiring a hitman, there's almost always some sort of evidence trail you leave because you're communicating with the person. You're giving money to the person. It's not a crime you're likely to get away with. And also then the person you hire to commit the crime could potentially become a witness against you.

[00:24:06] [SPEAKER_02] And let's be honest, if some dirt bag is taking, you know, taking commissions to murder people, they're probably going to get in trouble with something else eventually. And guess what? Guess what's a great bargaining chip? Oh, you remember that high profile homicide no one found? Well, I can give you the guy who paid me, which is ultimately frequently who prosecutors care about more than the trigger man.

[00:24:29] [SPEAKER_00] And also, I'll tell you a secret, maybe.

[00:24:33] [SPEAKER_01] Secret. Well, here's a secret. Let's say you're going through an awful divorce or even just a breakup and you are furious and you feel wronged by your partner. The absolute best revenge to get against them is to move on and be happy with someone else.

[00:24:56] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, or just be happy by yourself. Have a good life.

[00:24:59] [SPEAKER_01] Yes. Forget about them.

[00:25:02] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. That's the most devastating thing you can do.

[00:25:04] [SPEAKER_01] I mean, because that shows them that you didn't need them.

[00:25:08] [SPEAKER_02] Is there like a money angle here? Like, was he going to come into some money? Like, I don't even I mean, not that that would justify it, obviously. It just I'm just I just get so like I don't understand these types of killings. It's just you just obviously people, I think, carried away by really stupid and destructive emotions and possessiveness and anger. And it's like, I don't know, it's it's it's it's horrible. I feel I feel terrible for love can make you do crazy things.

[00:25:34] [SPEAKER_01] And so can hate.

[00:25:35] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, not naturally. But, you know, I don't know. It's. I'd be I'd be curious. Like, I don't know. I wonder if there's studies on those kinds of like people who get so mad in a relationship that they like do a hit man level thing. Because as you said, like if you commit the crime and you don't know what you're doing, you're probably going to get caught. And most people don't know what they're doing. And if you if you hire someone, then that just leaves a trail. So, like, just the lesson is don't live your life.

[00:26:02] [SPEAKER_02] Also, I don't want our listeners to feel like we think they're going to kill someone. And this is like a, you know, like a good intervention for them. I feel like we're just speaking generally. We obviously our listeners are incredibly smart and they're never going to do anything like this.

[00:26:14] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, obviously.

[00:26:15] [SPEAKER_02] Obviously. That goes without saying.

[00:26:18] [SPEAKER_01] Which is why I didn't say it.

[00:26:19] [SPEAKER_02] Well, I did.

[00:26:21] [SPEAKER_01] Let's just move on quickly.

[00:26:23] [SPEAKER_02] All right. This is a horrible case out of Florida. And there's a in-depth USA Today article written about it that's really well done. It's going to contain a lot more details than what I included here. So I want you to go read that. I also did some research with newspapers dot com and looked at some things from the news press and the Bradenton Herald. So Gregory Philip Malnery Jr. and Kimberly Ann Malnery were a married couple. They were young.

[00:26:53] [SPEAKER_02] He was 25. She was 26. They lived on, you know, Beach Road in Punta Gorda, Florida. They moved in there when Kimberly became pregnant. And it was just a little one story home. They were not noisy, not partiers. Didn't get any complaints. Neighbors would admire once the baby was born, Kimberly's baby. She would walk her in her carriage along the road.

[00:27:19] [SPEAKER_02] And unfortunately, that kind of just typical married life came to a horrible end when an employee of the South Florida sod farm discovered a car on the farm's property and found the baby, who I believe was about 23 months old at the time, strapped in to her car seat.

[00:27:43] [SPEAKER_02] She was alive, but she was extremely dehydrated, covered in mosquito bites, and she only survived because the car windows had been left open. And nearby, they found the bodies of her parents. And it had been a very brutal attack. Gregory had been killed, struck with an axe, presumably, shot in the back of the head, bludgeoned. His throat was slit.

[00:28:12] [SPEAKER_02] Kimberly had been raped and shot in the head. And so what happened was the investigation started. And on April 17, 1997, at the Florida Sod Inc., a man named James Dennis Ford was arrested. So Gregory and him had both worked at that sod company together.

[00:28:33] [SPEAKER_02] And Ford had apparently invited Gregory and his family to go fishing together on the farm on April 6, 1997, like a weekend fishing trip. But instead of that, he attacked the couple when they arrived and did these horrible things to them and then abandoned their child to, you know, remain in the car. And there was a substantive case against him. His semen was found within Kimberly.

[00:29:01] [SPEAKER_02] People, witnesses saw him staggering around with blood on his face and hands and clothes. His gun was used in the crime. There were scratches on his body. I mean, it was a pretty open and shut case. This guy was obviously guilty. His defense at trial was that he was blackout drunk during the commission of the crimes. And then he later was upset about that because he basically admitted that he was guilty. I'm curious about that.

[00:29:25] [SPEAKER_02] Like, what do you think of that defense, the blackout drunk defense in terms of like the double edged sword of like, well, I didn't know I did it. But also I'm basically saying I did it.

[00:29:38] [SPEAKER_01] It's hard to evaluate whether or not a person had intent if they were so out of their mind.

[00:29:45] [SPEAKER_02] If they claimed they were so out of their mind.

[00:29:47] [SPEAKER_01] Yes.

[00:29:48] [SPEAKER_02] You know, but for someone who's totally blackout drunk, he certainly effectively killed two adults, you know.

[00:29:56] [SPEAKER_01] I've never been blackout drunk. I don't know.

[00:29:59] [SPEAKER_02] I have.

[00:29:59] [SPEAKER_01] Is it possible to be blackout drunk and to be walking around and doing things?

[00:30:04] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. Yeah, definitely.

[00:30:06] [SPEAKER_01] Okay. You say you've been blackout drunk in your mind. Should you be held responsible for whatever you did while you were in that state?

[00:30:14] [SPEAKER_02] A hundred percent. Yes. I mean, well, let's be let's be a little bit less black and white about this. I think in a situation like this. Yes. Maybe there's other ones where you could convince me that, you know, you made the choice to get blackout drunk, you know. And if listen, a lot of people, myself included, get blackout drunk and we don't get behind a car wheel. We don't hit anybody. We're not violent.

[00:30:40] [SPEAKER_01] You've got blackout. You don't continue to get blackout drunk.

[00:30:43] [SPEAKER_02] Oh, no, I don't. Yeah. I mean, I'm a recovering alcoholic, so I don't.

[00:30:46] [SPEAKER_01] You've been sober for quite a while.

[00:30:48] [SPEAKER_02] I've been sober for quite a while. I don't drink anymore. But when I did, I would do stupid stuff. But I never hurt anybody. I never drove. I never killed anybody. So I feel like, you know, when people use that as an excuse, it's like, yeah, no, there's some other issues going on here. You definitely do. It lowers your inhibitions for sure. It impairs your judgment for sure. But I think you still bear responsibility for what you do at this point. I just, it's an excuse.

[00:31:17] [SPEAKER_02] Actually, interestingly enough, this guy was very much an alcoholic. He apparently, his father, his mother abandoned him early in life. This is what his attorneys are saying. Like, he's on the death row in Florida. So they're saying that he should be shown mercy because of this. His father was a raging alcoholic. And he and his father had an unusually close relationship, which is often actually a sign of alcoholic dysfunction. It's like they're enmeshed almost with each other.

[00:31:47] [SPEAKER_02] But his father died and then he started drinking excessively, you know, drinking a lot every day. And, you know, I mean, a loss of a parent, the loss of a father that you're close to is devastating. It's awful. But that doesn't excuse murdering two people in cold blood for no reason and raping. I mean, like, absolutely not. That's stupid.

[00:32:08] [SPEAKER_01] Do you think any of that stuff should be considered as a mitigating factor? So he would get a lesser sentence, even if it's a little bit lesser of a sentence.

[00:32:16] [SPEAKER_02] No. The one thing I do think could be a mitigating factor and I would I would support as a mitigating factor. But we're hearing this from the defense attorneys. So I don't like and, you know, I think you can get us. I think you can get experts to say whatever you want, frankly, if I'm if I'm being somewhat jaded here.

[00:32:31] [SPEAKER_01] You're so cynical.

[00:32:32] [SPEAKER_02] I am cynical. You know, the lawyers claim. But I think if this is true to me, this is a genuine mitigating factor. Lawyers say that he was 36 when the crime was committed, but he essentially had the developmental age of 14 year old. So he's developmentally disabled. To me, that is something. If true, that that is a mitigating factor because you are dealing with somebody who does not have the capacity of an adult to make adult decisions.

[00:33:00] [SPEAKER_02] Now, many would argue that a 14 year old knows right from wrong and knows that you should not rape and murder people. But perhaps that's one thing that could keep him off death row in my mind. What do you think?

[00:33:10] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, I would agree with that.

[00:33:11] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. To me, the drinking. I mean, I don't know. He did not have a history of violence. He did not have a history of criminal extensive criminal history. But what he did was so incredibly brutal and awful that I kind of feel like the aggravating factors here kind of overcome that. But but the developmental delay, potentially, that that's something that I think would be more significant in my mind than the drinking.

[00:33:39] [SPEAKER_02] It's not his choice to have had possibly those issues. It's his choice to drink to that level of excess. It is a disease. And at some point, the addiction takes over your life. I get that. But I I'm not I'm not that sympathetic on that on that side of things. I am more sympathetic on the developmental side. But I feel bad for his kids like they talked about in the newspaper, like they were bullied after this happened. I mean, it's not there. I mean, like should go without saying like.

[00:34:06] [SPEAKER_02] Families of perpetrators, you know, unless they were involved in the crimes, don't deserve any sort of. You know. Repercussions like that, especially kids. I mean, like they didn't do anything. That's just their dad. But he is facing an he's facing execution. USA Today reported that his only hope at this point are the United States Supreme Court and Governor Ron DeSantis. So it is most likely that he's facing the death penalty.

[00:34:34] [SPEAKER_02] And it honestly kind of reminded me a little bit of Richard Allen in the Delphi case. How so? Richard Allen's story is that he, you know, downed a bunch of beer that day and then went out and slaughtered two kids. Did not have a documented history of violence towards others. Kind of came out of the blue. Same with Ford. Right. And people often are like surprised. They're like, no, there's only serial killers and then like normal people. You either have to do a lot of bad things constantly or not. And that's not true.

[00:35:01] [SPEAKER_02] Some people are taking time bombs and drinking, doing things that can impair your judgment or lower your inhibitions. Or maybe you are doing something you always wanted to do but never, never did. I think we have to hold in our minds the possibility that there are people like that. And that's scary because it's not like you almost want to have someone be like, you know, red flag after red flag. So we know who to avoid. But that's just not reality. Reality is very complicated.

[00:35:31] [SPEAKER_02] Anyways, I think now we're going to New Jersey. Yes.

[00:35:35] [SPEAKER_01] A moment ago you talked about, oh, should the family members of a perpetrator be held responsible for what the person did? You mentioned that in another context, but that is actually at the heart of this next case. And my source for this is mycentraljersey.com and also an opinion of the New Jersey courts.

[00:35:58] [SPEAKER_01] And this case began when a young man named Ryan Keough murdered a man named Terrence Kulange at the home of the Keough family.

[00:36:16] [SPEAKER_02] Kulange, you mean?

[00:36:17] [SPEAKER_01] Kulange. At the home of the Keough family. And after he shoots his victim, he contacts his parents. The shooter contacts his parents. And they come home and they don't really call 911 or take any steps to try to assist the shot person who, as I mentioned, was killed.

[00:36:44] [SPEAKER_01] And so they were charged with endangerment, endangering this victim by not taking those steps. And so the first thing that is worth noting is that according to all of the relevant testimony, the victim actually died within minutes of being shot.

[00:37:10] [SPEAKER_01] And so by the time Mr. and Mrs. Keough were aware of the situation, it was too late. The man was already dead. And it's just common sense to think you can't endanger the welfare or the health of someone who's already deceased.

[00:37:27] [SPEAKER_02] No, you cannot.

[00:37:28] [SPEAKER_01] And there's also worth keeping in mind that people can do bad things or distasteful things. That doesn't necessarily mean that's a violation of the law.

[00:37:39] [SPEAKER_02] Being a scumbag is not illegal.

[00:37:41] [SPEAKER_01] Right. So there's that issue. So keep that in mind that by the time they were aware of the situation, the victim was likely dead. So that in and of itself is a pretty big hurdle. There is another issue in here, though, that lawyers – I think one of us is married to a lawyer here. Really?

[00:38:02] [SPEAKER_01] And is aware that sometimes lawyers can kind of focus on little details and try to argue their way out of it. So I want to read you the relevant statute here.

[00:38:15] [SPEAKER_02] I feel like all the lawyer spouses listening are like sighing right now.

[00:38:18] [SPEAKER_01] It says a person is guilty of endangering an injured victim if he causes bodily injury to any person or solicit aids, encourages or attempts or agrees to aid another who causes bodily injury to any person and leaves the scene of the injury knowing or reasonably believing the injured person is physically helpless, mentally incapacitated or otherwise unable to care for himself.

[00:38:45] [SPEAKER_01] So leaving aside the issue of the fact that the person was already dead, there's another potential issue there. Does it jump out at you?

[00:38:55] [SPEAKER_02] No. Not even a little bit. Tell me.

[00:39:00] [SPEAKER_01] Okay. Okay. So it says if you are – a person is guilty of endangering an injured victim if he causes bodily injury to any person or solicit aids, encourages or attempts or agrees to aid another who causes bodily injury to any person. They don't say a person who caused bodily injury to another person. It says a person who causes bodily injury to any person.

[00:39:27] [SPEAKER_01] Doesn't that tend to suggest then that you can only be guilty of the crime if you are part of – if you are one of the people causing the injuries?

[00:39:40] [SPEAKER_02] Oh, my God.

[00:39:41] [SPEAKER_01] Does that make sense?

[00:39:43] [SPEAKER_02] I'm trying to get my – I feel like I'm back in like the SAT questions.

[00:39:47] [SPEAKER_01] If I say you're guilty if you aid somebody who caused injury, that means I could show up like a day later. You could have done the bad deed the day before and I could still be guilty. But if it says I'm aiding someone who causes injury, doesn't that tend to suggest I need to be there while the injury is occurring?

[00:40:07] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, it does to me. Yeah, when you say it like that, yeah.

[00:40:10] [SPEAKER_01] So in essence, just using the word causes instead of the word caused is enough to be a fatal blow to the charges against this couple.

[00:40:21] [SPEAKER_02] Did this couple in your mind do something that was at least morally wrong here? I'm just curious. Or is this some – are these people who are just like, we didn't know this. We came home and this whole thing was going on. Or did they not call the police?

[00:40:35] [SPEAKER_01] They didn't call 911. Okay. That's – Yeah, so –

[00:40:38] [SPEAKER_02] That's definitely sketchy. I'm sorry. You know, that would be the normal thing to do when you come home and someone's dead in your house. But just because we don't approve of behavior does not mean that said behavior is necessarily – fits the legal definition of something that is a crime. Or at least not this crime.

[00:41:00] [SPEAKER_01] But this is the sort of thing that you will argue about if you go to law school, how the meaning of a statute and the application of a statute can be completely different if you use the present tense or the past tense of the word caused.

[00:41:14] [SPEAKER_02] You know, it all changes, yeah.

[00:41:16] [SPEAKER_01] And also it's like – it gives you a taste of what being married to a lawyer is like.

[00:41:19] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, now you all know my reality. You know, that is funny because I remember – like, sometimes I tend to use exaggerated language for effect and for humorous purposes. But I think sometimes you're more – you're a lot more exact than I am.

[00:41:37] [SPEAKER_01] I'm a lot more exact.

[00:41:40] [SPEAKER_02] Follow yourself, too.

[00:41:42] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, to cut to the chase, the charges against the couple were dismissed.

[00:41:46] [SPEAKER_02] That seems appropriate given what we know. Obviously, if they had come home and this guy was still alive, to me that would be a very different situation because then you could have saved him with a call.

[00:41:57] [SPEAKER_01] I'm not even sure. I didn't see this detail in the decision or in the article. I'm not sure if when the parents got home, if they understood that the person was dead or still alive. But even if you think he's alive, if he's actually dead –

[00:42:13] [SPEAKER_02] It doesn't matter.

[00:42:14] [SPEAKER_01] And also the way the statute is written, you're also only on the hook if you participated in causing the injuries. And by all accounts, they did not.

[00:42:23] [SPEAKER_02] Would there be anything illegal about showing up, finding someone – or being aware someone has been shot in your house and not calling police? Is that just –

[00:42:30] [SPEAKER_01] I'm no expert on New Jersey criminal law. I've never lived in New Jersey. But I would imagine if there was a statute that fit, the prosecutor would have filed it.

[00:42:40] [SPEAKER_02] Right. That makes sense. Kind of a singular kind of situation, it sounds like in some ways. But no, that's an interesting one. Well, I think – is that all our cases? It's all the cases. All the cases facing the couples?

[00:42:55] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:42:56] [SPEAKER_02] Well, let's talk a little bit about something we've been working on for a while now. This is our book on the Delphi murders case called Shadow of the Bridge. And pre-orders really help us out. So I know a lot of you have already pre-ordered. And for that, we thank you so much. Thank you. Feel free to tell your family, your parents, your adult children, your cousins, if you speak to them still.

[00:43:23] [SPEAKER_02] Your sisters and brothers and siblings and everybody. Just tell – your dentist. Just tell them all about the book if they like true crime or they're just interested in reading something interesting. And then that would be very helpful and spread the word.

[00:43:41] [SPEAKER_01] And then I, I would like to offer – and I apologized on last week's program. And now I have to apologize not to the listeners, but I have to apologize to you, dear Anya, because of my blunder last week with the ad.

[00:43:58] [SPEAKER_01] The t-shirt sales plummeted because I made an offer last week that if a certain number of people bought shirts, I would wear – or not – I would eat something that I find disgusting. And it didn't occur to me people actually like me and don't want me to have to do something distasteful. And so only – I think only a couple of people bought shirts. The sales plummeted, and I will remember who those people are.

[00:44:28] [SPEAKER_01] But it was only a couple of them. And so sales plummeted. And so I think maybe should I, like, offer to do something I would enjoy if people buy shirts? Like, maybe I'll go out and have a fish sandwich if you buy a shirt.

[00:44:38] [SPEAKER_02] I just want to say for the record, Kim and DJ, you're my heroes. I'll never forget you. Thank you for trying. But, yeah, you guys dropped the ball here. So Kevin's not going to eat his rhubarb candies and suffer. So that's unfortunate.

[00:44:52] [SPEAKER_00] Sales plummeted because of my unprecedented offer.

[00:44:55] [SPEAKER_02] I think – I don't know about plummeted, but we didn't get to that number we needed to. So there's going to be no rhubarb eating. But we'll see if we can get them another time. Don't worry, folks. I'm sure there'll be a second to crack at it.

[00:45:10] [SPEAKER_00] But sales plummeted. Sales plummeted. No, they didn't.

[00:45:15] [SPEAKER_01] Sales plummeted because of my offer. So I regret that. You took a financial bath because of it, and I regret that. Anya now –

[00:45:24] [SPEAKER_00] We're going out of business.

[00:45:26] [SPEAKER_01] Anya now has to look forward to a week of eating like ramen for dinner every night.

[00:45:32] [SPEAKER_02] Oh, my God. You're so crazy. But I just want to say I do appreciate everyone who bought one. I appreciate that we're all aligned on the same mission with that, but just didn't quite get there. So I'm sorry.

[00:45:44] [SPEAKER_01] Sales plummeted. I don't know about that. So maybe if you buy a shirt this week, I'll eat a fish sandwich. I'll get pads.

[00:45:50] [SPEAKER_02] So you'll do all the things you're just normally doing. You'll just live your life. That's what people like. Is that what people like?

[00:45:58] [SPEAKER_00] That's what they want. Do an order and say, Kevin, get some fish.

[00:46:03] [SPEAKER_01] That's what people want.

[00:46:04] [SPEAKER_00] No one –

[00:46:05] [SPEAKER_01] Should we do as an experiment? Say, oh, if you buy shirts this week, maybe Anya will do something distasteful?

[00:46:10] [SPEAKER_02] No, I'm not doing anything because I'm not volunteering for that. I'm not a little –

[00:46:14] [SPEAKER_00] Oh, because you're worried that people would buy the shirts.

[00:46:16] [SPEAKER_02] You're like some carnival barker guy doing all these publicity stunts. I'm just here trying to sell some honest shirts. That's all I'm trying to do.

[00:46:24] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, the shirts are very honest.

[00:46:25] [SPEAKER_02] They're very honorable shirts.

[00:46:27] [SPEAKER_01] Tell the people about the shirts.

[00:46:30] [SPEAKER_02] Anyone listening for the first time is like, what the heck are they talking about? The shirts are cotton shirts and they are black in color and they have a – like our logo on them, which is very cool and colorful. And they have murder sheet people on them, which is a –

[00:46:51] [SPEAKER_01] It has the words murder sheet people on them.

[00:46:53] [SPEAKER_02] They have all of your faces. It's very creepy. All your faces staring at you. Don't ask us how we got all your photos. It's quite a story.

[00:47:03] [SPEAKER_01] So you're now telling people, buy these shirts. They're creepy.

[00:47:06] [SPEAKER_02] No, I'm just kidding around. I'm just joking around. Is that allowed? And they – and yeah, they're – you can buy them online at murdersheetshop.org. Wait, no, murdersheetshop.com. Don't – don't – don't look at me. And –

[00:47:26] [SPEAKER_01] So next week you'll be apologizing to me.

[00:47:29] [SPEAKER_02] This is a series of apology tours with these ads at this point. That's what we've been reduced to. And they – they're cool and they say murder sheet people on them. And they – that refers to people who listen to the murder sheet. And you can be part of that community. Obviously, you're part of it now. But you can really level up with these shirts. Anything else I forgot to add? I already got the URL wrong. Yeah.

[00:47:55] [SPEAKER_01] And you've also told people this shirt is creepy.

[00:47:57] [SPEAKER_02] Well, you're the one who tied it to some bizarre candy-eating experiment. So pardon me if I'm not going to be lectured by a man who's doing that.

[00:48:05] [SPEAKER_01] We'll see what happens to –

[00:48:07] [SPEAKER_02] A man who has such strong opinions on freaking rhubarb of all things and is then dragging Taylor Swift into this mess. Because that's – that's what we need right now. We need to be in a feud with this – with the Swift nation. That's not –

[00:48:21] [SPEAKER_01] Well, I'll note I was very careful using precise language. I didn't bring up the details of the apology from last week because I didn't want to re-inflame passions. Re-inflame it. Obviously, that wasn't a concern you had with your ad.

[00:48:33] [SPEAKER_02] No, I'm just saying – Just hit the butt. I just hit the butt.

[00:48:37] [SPEAKER_01] Thanks so much for listening to The Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us at murdersheet at gmail dot com. If you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[00:48:56] [SPEAKER_02] If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com slash murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www.buymeacoffee.com slash murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.

[00:49:21] [SPEAKER_01] Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for The Murder Sheet, and who you can find on the web at kevintg.com.

[00:49:30] [SPEAKER_02] If you're looking to talk with other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.

[00:49:58] [SPEAKER_01] Before we go, we just wanted to say another few words about VIA. This is really a wonderful product. I think it's really helped both of us get a lot better rest.

[00:50:06] [SPEAKER_02] VIA is pretty much, I guess you'd say, the only lifestyle hemp brand out there. So what does that mean? It means that they're all about crafting different products to elicit different moods. Kevin and I really like their non-THC CBD products. Specifically, Zen really helps me fall asleep. Some Zen can really just kind of help me get more into that state where I can relax and fall asleep pretty easily. And they've been such a wonderful support to us. They're a longtime sponsor.

[00:50:34] [SPEAKER_02] We really love working with them, and they really make this show possible. I'm going to say this. You may not realize this, but when you support our sponsors, you're supporting us, and it kind of makes it possible for us to do this show. So if you or one of your loved ones is interested in trying some of this stuff, you're going to get a great deal. It's very high quality, high value.

[00:50:53] [SPEAKER_01] Anya, if I wanted to give this discount you speak of, what do I do?

[00:50:57] [SPEAKER_02] Okay, if you're 21 and older, head to viahemp.com and use the code MSHEET to receive 15% off. And if you're new to VIA, get a free gift of your choice. That's V-I-I-A, hemp.com, and use code MSHEET at checkout.

[00:51:11] [SPEAKER_01] Spell the code.

[00:51:12] [SPEAKER_02] M-S-H-E-E-T. And after you purchase, they're going to ask you, hey, where did you hear about us? Say the murder sheet because then it lets them know that our ads are effective, and it really helps us out.

[00:51:25] [SPEAKER_01] Can we talk a little bit before we go about Quintz, a great new sponsor for us? I think in one of the ads that we've already done for them, we talked about the compliments I'm getting on my jacket. I know you're a very modest woman, but can we talk about the compliments you're getting on the Quintz products you wear?

[00:51:44] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, I've got two of their Mongolian cashmere sweaters. They're a brand that just does this sort of luxurious products but without the crazy costs really well. They give you Italian leather handbags. They do like European linen sheets. You have a really cool suede jacket. And I really like the way I look in my sweaters. I like the way you look in your bomber jacket. It looks super cool.

[00:52:10] [SPEAKER_01] You've gotten a lot of compliments when you go out wearing these sweaters.

[00:52:13] [SPEAKER_02] I think I have, yeah.

[00:52:14] [SPEAKER_01] And deservedly so.

[00:52:15] [SPEAKER_02] Also, I'm one of those people, my skin is very sensitive. So when it comes to wearing sweaters, sometimes something's too scratchy. It really bothers me. These are so soft. They're just like very delicate and soft and make – wearing them is lovely because they're super comfortable. You're not – it's not one of those things where you're like you buy and it looks great, but it doesn't feel that great. They look great. They feel great. But yeah, I really love them. And you got your cool jacket.

[00:52:43] [SPEAKER_02] I mean that's a little bit of a – you're the guy who wears the same thing all the time. So this was a bit of a gamble for you, a bit of a risk. You got something a bit different.

[00:52:51] [SPEAKER_01] I do wash my clothes.

[00:52:52] [SPEAKER_02] I know you wash your clothes, but I mean you're filthy.

[00:52:56] [SPEAKER_01] You just made me sound awful. So no, I wash my clothes.

[00:53:00] [SPEAKER_02] But you don't really – I launder them. You don't really experiment with fashion that much is what I'm saying. So this is a little bit out of the norm for you, but I think you really like it and it looks good.

[00:53:08] [SPEAKER_01] Thank you. Great products, incredible prices. Absolutely. Quince.com.

[00:53:13] [SPEAKER_02] There you go. So you can go to Quince.com slash msheet. And right now they're offering 365-day returns plus free shipping on your order. So that's quince.com slash msheet. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash M-S-H-E-E-T.

[00:53:31] [SPEAKER_01] Before we wrap up this episode, can we take just a moment to say a few more words about our great new sponsor, Acorns?

[00:53:38] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. Thanks so much to Acorns. Remember when you support our sponsors, you're supporting us. And our sponsors make it possible for us to do this job. So we really appreciate them.

[00:53:47] [SPEAKER_01] We love our sponsors.

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[00:55:04] [SPEAKER_02] View important disclosures at acorns.com slash msheet.