The Cheat Sheet: Canals and Comeuppance

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_01] I'm Anya, and today's Cheat Sheet, we're going to be going abroad to Ireland, heading back home to Indiana, and then venturing out to Montana and Wisconsin. Content warning, this episode contains discussions of violence and murder, including the murder of children. It also contains discussion of suicide. All right, so, yeah.

[00:00:25] [SPEAKER_00] Well, can we begin with me, Kevin Greenlee, the co-host of the program? Kevin Greenlee Thanking you. I think recently, I did all the cases on an episode because you were busy with something. And today, I'm working really hard on some 9-11 related content. And in addition to that, earlier today, we recorded part one of our response to Framed by Aaron Habel, his podcast on the Temujin Kensu case. And after that-

[00:00:55] [SPEAKER_01] We shamed Framed.

[00:00:56] [SPEAKER_00] Kevin Greenlee After that, my blood pressure was like really, really high. And I think you were worried for my health. So, I took it easy. You've stepped up to the plate. I have not even looked at the cases, but I'm sure you've done a masterful job. And it's going to be like, I'm on a Greyhound bus. I'm just going to sit back. Hopefully, it'll be a better experience than that.

[00:01:17] [SPEAKER_00] Kevin Greenlee Sit back, leave the driving to you. You're the conductor of the cane train. I'm just going to take it easy. Just relax. And maybe for our dear friends, the listener, it might be interesting because you have the episode where it's all Kevin cases. And now you have the episode where it's all Anya cases. So, you can compare and contrast.

[00:01:37] [SPEAKER_01] Kevin Greenlee Yeah, see which style you like better. Let us know who's doing it. No, I don't. I don't want to know because I know it's going to be Kevin's episode, People Like Better.

[00:01:46] [SPEAKER_00] Kevin Greenlee One more thing I'd like to say before I turn the tiller over to you on the cane boat. Somehow, we're on a boat and a bus and a train simultaneously.

[00:01:59] [SPEAKER_01] Kevin Greenlee Weird, amphibious vehicle.

[00:02:01] [SPEAKER_00] Kevin Greenlee But we have such a wonderful time with our friends in the premium content. You can join us on either Apple or Patreon. You get early episodes. You get ad-free episodes. You get extra episodes.

[00:02:17] [SPEAKER_01] Kevin Greenlee All the kinds of episodes you want. Kevin Greenlee Yes. Kevin Greenlee You looked really disturbed for a minute.

[00:02:25] [SPEAKER_00] Kevin Greenlee Okay. With that said, we have a lot of fun with that. We try to be responsive to whatever people. Kevin Greenlee You want the people in the premium.

[00:02:33] [SPEAKER_01] Kevin Greenlee Unlike these episodes where we don't care what people want.

[00:02:36] [SPEAKER_00] Kevin Greenlee You call the tune and Anya will dance to it.

[00:02:39] [SPEAKER_01] Kevin Greenlee Kevin will dance too.

[00:02:41] [SPEAKER_00] Kevin Greenlee Well, no, I'm just relaxing.

[00:02:43] [SPEAKER_01] Kevin Greenlee Oh, okay.

[00:02:44] [SPEAKER_00] Kevin Greenlee I'm very ill. I'm very ill. It's a miracle I'm even speaking.

[00:02:49] [SPEAKER_01] Kevin Greenlee That's true.

[00:02:50] [SPEAKER_00] Kevin Greenlee And also, if I sounded too angry in that Temujin Kinsu Part 1 response, I'm sure it was just because I was ill.

[00:02:58] [SPEAKER_01] Kevin Greenlee Isn't this episode, though, going out before that?

[00:03:01] [SPEAKER_00] Kevin Greenlee Yes, but I want to let people know.

[00:03:03] [SPEAKER_01] Kevin Greenlee What's coming?

[00:03:04] [SPEAKER_00] Kevin Greenlee I'm really angry at the end.

[00:03:06] [SPEAKER_01] Kevin Greenlee Kevin flipped out. I mean, and deservedly so. I think it's a deserved crash out, as the kids say. Kevin Greenlee By me? Kevin Greenlee Yeah. No, I mean, like, you're really pissed.

[00:03:16] [SPEAKER_00] Kevin Greenlee Okay, so I wasn't crashing out.

[00:03:17] [SPEAKER_01] Kevin Greenlee Well, you were crashing out a bit, but emotionally. But I think what you were saying was logical. I think people would be really—I've said this to many people. I've pulled people aside and said this.

[00:03:28] [SPEAKER_00] Kevin Greenlee You've spoken about this with your clergyman, haven't you?

[00:03:30] [SPEAKER_01] Kevin Greenlee I have. People think that I'm the hothead at all times. And in many cases, they're correct, okay? Like, I'm not fake on this show. This is my personality, unfortunately.

[00:03:42] [SPEAKER_01] Kevin Greenlee So when people say that, they're like, oh, you know, Anya. And, like, we've talked to people. We've met people in real life. We've met, like, people who've worked on cases in real life. And they're like, oh, I saw Anya. I was getting pretty heated about that. And I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah. But sometimes Kevin's the hothead. And this is definitely one of those times. So I'm just saying there's nuances.

[00:04:02] [SPEAKER_00] Kevin Greenlee So people have been warned. I'm going to be, like, yelling and screaming. I'll be stomping my foot.

[00:04:08] [SPEAKER_01] Kevin Greenlee You'll be cursing. You'll be saying lewd things, actually, at some point.

[00:04:12] [SPEAKER_00] Kevin Greenlee Don't I, like, storm away at some point?

[00:04:14] [SPEAKER_01] Kevin Greenlee I don't think you stormed away. No, I don't think you did that. That wouldn't have made any sense because you'd be storming away from me. Oh, man.

[00:04:25] [SPEAKER_00] Kevin Greenlee Okay, so I've said my piece. Premium Tiller. Now it's you. Kevin Greenlee Tiller time. Kevin Greenlee Launch the Kane plane into the sky as I sit back and wait for my meal service.

[00:04:41] [SPEAKER_01] Excellent. My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist.

[00:04:45] [SPEAKER_00] Kevin Greenlee And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney. Kevin Greenlee And this is The Murder Sheet. Kevin Greenlee We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases. Kevin Greenlee We're The Murder Sheet.

[00:04:56] [SPEAKER_01] Kevin Greenlee And this is The Cheat Sheet. Canals and comeuppance.

[00:05:45] [SPEAKER_00] Kevin Greenlee Speaking of planes, aren't we beginning by taking a green journey, much like the Jonathan Hassler going over to Ireland, where I think you had you want to break some news.

[00:05:58] [SPEAKER_01] Kevin Greenlee Okay. So we went to Ireland recently. My lovely, wonderful younger sister got married, and she was a very, very, very, very beautiful bride. And it was very fun, and we had a great time hanging out with my family and friends, and it was a blast. So shout out to Catherine. You're beautiful, and I'm so happy for her.

[00:06:22] [SPEAKER_01] Kevin Greenlee They're a really cute couple, and I'm just very excited for them starting their lives together. So we got to visit Ireland, and that was really lovely.

[00:06:30] [SPEAKER_00] Kevin Greenlee They have fish cakes there.

[00:06:32] [SPEAKER_01] Kevin Greenlee They do. Kevin's obsessed with the fish cakes there, and it's just a very beautiful country, lovely people. We actually had a situation where we got stranded somewhere, and it's like the nicest people helping you out, you know? Kevin Greenlee So, I mean, I love Ireland. This first case is in, you know, it took place in Ireland, unfortunately. And I will be speaking about that. This was actually a recommendation from a listener.

[00:06:57] [SPEAKER_01] Kevin Greenlee So thank you to that listener for bringing this to my attention. I had not heard of this case before. It was very interesting and very sad. Kevin Greenlee So the reporting that I predominantly relied upon here was RTE, which is a major broadcaster in Ireland, and this is the death of Kelly Marie Lynch.

[00:07:16] [SPEAKER_01] Kevin Greenlee So on March 17th, 2024, which is St. Patrick's Day, the body of a young woman was discovered. This was unfortunately Kelly Lynch, who was 23 years old. Kevin Greenlee And she had been found near the Horseshoe Bridge in County Monaghan over the Ulster Canal. Some background here, County Monaghan is in the Republic of Ireland, and it's in the province of Ulster.

[00:07:44] [SPEAKER_01] Kevin Greenlee Now, I'm not going to, we're not going to get all into this because we're not going to get all controversial here. But basically, Ulster is a part of Ireland where all but three counties of Ulster were subsumed into Northern Ireland, which is in the United Kingdom.

[00:08:04] [SPEAKER_01] Kevin Greenlee Monaghan, County Monaghan was one of the few that joined the Irish Free State, essentially, which is the Republic now. This is all very controversial, but whatever. So that's where Monaghan is, part of the Republic of Ireland. In the Republic of Ireland, it's the Gardai. That's the police. Just throwing some terms out there.

[00:08:25] [SPEAKER_01] Kevin Greenlee And now, Miss Lynch was actually from County Down, which is in, which is part of Ulster that's now in Northern Ireland, which is again, part of the UK. Kevin Greenlee So she was from the village of Guilford, and she was in Monaghan, though, at the time of her death because her boyfriend's brother had died and the couple was staying at his family home.

[00:08:52] [SPEAKER_01] Kevin Greenlee Okay, so that is the situation of what's going on. This sad event. I guess she's going over to provide support to her boyfriend during this difficult time. So Saturday, March 16th, very early morning hours, she's out with her boyfriend and his friends, and there has been heavy drinking going on. She has been apparently drinking heavily as well.

[00:09:17] [SPEAKER_01] Kevin Greenlee And she's seen at this, what's called a national school, which is about 400 yards from the bridge, the horseshoe bridge over the Ulster Canal. So she's about 400 yards from this at this national school. She becomes separated from the group. The last, I guess, official confirmed sighting of her is via CCTV footage that is showing her in this area.

[00:09:42] [SPEAKER_01] Kevin Greenlee Again, few hundred yards from the bridge. So she's found dead in what sounds like was not a lot of water and very tragic circumstances, obviously. Kevin Greenlee So the reason RT was covering this recently is because a documentarian named Alan Bradley made a documentary about this called The Girl in the Water.

[00:10:05] [SPEAKER_01] And he became aware of this because of some of Kelly's family's efforts on social media, on TikTok, because what they're saying is that they don't think the official narrative of this case adds up. Kevin Greenlee And so why do they say that? Well, there's a couple of reasons that they feel like this should be looked at more. One is they find it odd that she was found in water. She drowned. Well, she was initially said to have drowned.

[00:10:31] [SPEAKER_01] And yet her phone was not water damaged. So that's one thing they're saying. Another thing they're saying is that the initial postmortem report concluded that Kelly died of drowning. That was the initial thing. Then a desk, what's called a desktop review, occurred of that from a second pathologist. That pathologist disagreed and said she likely died of hypothermia.

[00:10:54] [SPEAKER_01] And then, I guess, maybe through some of the efforts to review this case, someone named Dr. Fintan Garavan, who is a pathologist who works in the United States, but I guess was trained in Ireland, said that she died after a violent attack. Okay, so you have all these three different things here. What the family is saying is they feel like they've been ill-treated by the guard eye.

[00:11:19] [SPEAKER_01] They say that they feel like their concerns have been not really looked at and they feel like instead of treating it like a possible homicide, it was kind of made out to be an accident right away. And therefore, they'll never know answers. And, you know, I think my heart goes out to Kelly's family. This is a very tragic circumstance, no matter what.

[00:11:40] [SPEAKER_01] I tend to think that more cases should be treated like murders from the jump, even if it doesn't look like a murder to the police, just in case, you know, just in case it turns out that there is something. Maybe that would give a lot of families more comfort in these situations where it's felt like, okay, we treated it very strenuously like a murder from the beginning until it became clear it could not have been murder or was not a murder.

[00:12:08] [SPEAKER_01] That being said, you know, I will say that whenever I see a case with alcohol being involved and water, my initial view is that it's likely not foul play. And the reason for that is alcohol and water are very, very dangerous factors to go together.

[00:12:28] [SPEAKER_01] If someone has been heavily drinking and their inhibitions are down and they do something that they wouldn't do normally and they, you know, get over a wall or are climbing on something that they shouldn't be doing and they fall and, you know, hurt themselves, you can drown in vanishingly little water. Like that is, especially if you're, you know, if you're blacked out, it becomes very dangerous very quickly. I say that not because I'm saying that that's definitely what happened to Kelly.

[00:12:56] [SPEAKER_01] I think the fact that different pathologists are saying different things is interesting and should be looked at. I'm just saying this as a PSA public service announcement for anyone who, if you're around your friends and there's heavy drinking and you're near water, like watch out and maybe consider like really making sure everyone is sticking together because it can really become a safety issue very quickly. And I think just a lot of people think that like, oh yeah, I'm not going to swim in the ocean, but like it doesn't have to be the ocean. It could be a puddle.

[00:13:26] [SPEAKER_01] If you're, if you're incapacitated, you're face down in a puddle, you will drown.

[00:13:31] [SPEAKER_00] Obviously I'm hearing about this case now for the first time. So I don't have any specific conclusions about it. I would like to echo your points about alcohol use around water and mysterious deaths. My mind goes to things like the so-called smiley face killer.

[00:13:46] [SPEAKER_01] Which is not real.

[00:13:47] [SPEAKER_00] It's not real. And it's something where a lot of young men turn up dead near bodies of water and there's almost always drinking involved. There's so often a non-criminal explanation for a lot of these deaths and I, that doesn't make the loss any less. And my heart goes out to this family.

[00:14:11] [SPEAKER_01] Like, I think there's often a lot of anger in situations where it's like group of friends are out. Somebody doesn't come back. Why didn't you bring my loved one back? What did you do? And isn't it suspicious that you didn't do what I wanted you to do, which was keep my loved one safe? And I think that's a really understandable human reaction. And I think we can be sympathetic with that without necessarily playing into true crime brain, which is everything's a murder always. Which the reality is, it's rarely murder.

[00:14:41] [SPEAKER_01] It's usually not. But sometimes it is.

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[00:19:07] [SPEAKER_01] Scammers aren't waiting. Neither should you. Go to greenlight.com slash msheet right now to get started. That's greenlight.com slash msheet. Greenlight.com slash msheet. Greenlight.com slash msheet. You have to be open to it. You want to have police agencies who take it really seriously from the beginning. I don't know enough about this case to say whether or not the Guardine messed it up or whether this is a family that is just having a hard time accepting what's the likely conclusion here. I don't know.

[00:19:36] [SPEAKER_01] But I think, you know, it does sound like they have complaints about, like, they were rudely treated by investigators. And, like, I think it behooves investigators to really be thoughtful and compassionate with people who are grieving. Because I think when that doesn't happen, then things can spiral out.

[00:19:54] [SPEAKER_01] I do know with Dr. Garavan's findings, I think there's been pathologists on the side of the investigation who have said that, you know, who have answered some of those points and said, like, things that you're saying were injuries that must have come from an assault likely came from someone who's climbing or trying to get out of the canal or falling around. And, you know, don't speak to what you're saying.

[00:20:21] [SPEAKER_01] So there's been, like, and I think that can be common within the scientific community, you know, and it can make it hard because it's like, who do you believe, you know, and who's likely correct? I think you have to ultimately look at the totality of evidence in certain situations in order to determine what happened. I'm going to be interested. I'm going to see if I can check out this documentary. They may have some more answers to some of the questions I raised.

[00:20:45] [SPEAKER_01] Might be a good opportunity to, you know, to look at a case like this because you hear we get pitched a lot of cases where I look at it and I say, this sounds like an accident or an overdose. But people are convinced that it's not. And you know what? Some of them might be right. Sometimes things are covered up to look, I mean, by like the perpetrator to look like something. It's not. And it really is a murder. We've all seen cases like that. And I want to be open to that.

[00:21:12] [SPEAKER_00] That's very important. But I think in the distance, I'm hearing on the public, the public speakers that the PSA, that there's a call to get back on the plane and fly back to Indiana. The next case. I just I just worry. And I pray to God we don't suffer from too much jet lag.

[00:21:34] [SPEAKER_01] I hope we don't get jet lag and I hope we don't crash our car because we're used to driving on the opposite side of the road now. And I hope. Which is I want to give us credit here. Kevin and I rented a car in Ireland and we drove it and we didn't kill ourselves and we didn't kill anyone. That's not a really defensive. But but but yeah, I feel like I mean, you know, and I'm going to say this driving on the opposite side because it's different in Ireland. They drive on the opposite side to us.

[00:22:03] [SPEAKER_01] It's not as bad as you think it's going to be. It's disorienting for a little bit and then it's not that bad. The thing that threw me was we were in County Kerry, which is beautiful. It is a gorgeous, beautiful place. But one thing about Ireland is that they are going when it comes to Irish roads, it's all about the aesthetics. These roads look beautiful.

[00:22:26] [SPEAKER_01] They're like surrounded by these fairy tale bucolic settings, but they're terrifying to drive on because they're so narrow. There's roads in Ireland that like are two way. And it's like this would be a one way street in the States. It's wild, you know, but they look great. You drive around American roads and you're like, these look awful, but they're really easy to drive on. All right. Back to Indiana, back to our beloved Hoosier state.

[00:22:55] [SPEAKER_01] And my source for this is an affidavit for probable cause for murder. This is a case that happened a little while ago, but I still think it's worth talking about because it's disturbing and interesting. This affiant was Detective Michael Carroll of the Indiana State Police. And this concerns an incident from April 6, 2026 in Shipshawana, Indiana, in LaGrange County.

[00:23:24] [SPEAKER_01] This was when a woman, a mother named Chantal Michelle Cunningham was accused of murdering her baby son, who was five months old, had been born on October 27, 2025. So at around 11.09 a.m., Cunningham put a Facebook messenger call to Ciara Cundiff. And that lasted one minute, 19 seconds.

[00:23:53] [SPEAKER_01] Cundiff, who I believe may have been her mother or some sort of female relative, said Cunningham was hysterical and saying something about falling or dropping. Cundiff asked about, like, is the baby OK? And she did not answer that question. And Cundiff got someone named Jamie Geib and they drove to Cunningham's apartment and got there about 11.30. And Cunningham answered the door, said she had dropped the baby. He was bruised. And also she fell on him.

[00:24:23] [SPEAKER_01] They found the baby on Cunningham's bed. He was pale, blue, cold, limp, unresponsive. There was a bottle next to him. Guy picked up the victim and tried to resuscitate him, tried to stimulate him. He didn't respond. At 11.35 a.m., Cundiff, her phone, they called the emergency dispatch.

[00:24:48] [SPEAKER_01] And Shipshawana Deputy Marshal Brian Bergman got there at 11.39 a.m., started trying to resuscitate the baby. And the baby was unfortunately pronounced dead at 12.39 a.m., having never shown any additional signs of life. So emergency personnel, along with Cundiff and Geib, saw Cunningham start displaying what looked like seizure-like activity and noted that.

[00:25:17] [SPEAKER_01] So, you know, but no one sees what actually happens to the baby because Cunningham was alone in the apartment at that time. She says she was alone. There was no one else around. So anyways, they get a search warrant to search Cunningham's phone and do a forensic examination of that. 10.50 a.m. on April 6, 2026, someone using that phone on Google searched for, quote, how do quickly heal baby bruise, end quote.

[00:25:46] [SPEAKER_01] That was well before Cunningham started to reach out to family members and 45 minutes before the 911 call was placed. And there were a number of unanswered calls to another relative at 10.59 a.m. and 11.07 a.m., followed by the 11.09 a.m. Facebook Messenger called to Cundiff. And so what police are saying is, quote, despite recognizing the bruise and attempting to summon family,

[00:26:15] [SPEAKER_01] Cunningham did not call 911, seek help from a neighbor, attempt lifesaving measures, or otherwise request emergency medical assistance for victim one, end quote. What do you make of that? A mother being in this situation and not immediately doing those things.

[00:26:31] [SPEAKER_00] It's surprising. It's not what I would expect.

[00:26:34] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. It's odd. I mean, it's actually really concerning. So they end up taking Cunningham to Parkview LaGrange Hospital, where I believe the detective interviewed her around 4.10 p.m. She told him, quote, My body kept falling. I ended up dropping him a few times, end quote. Talked about multiple drops of the baby in her bedroom onto the floor.

[00:27:03] [SPEAKER_01] Said the baby may have struck a bed frame. She said she did not fall on him, despite what she said to the relatives that showed up. She was asked, why did you go to your family instead of 911? She said she didn't know what to do, and her mother was her first go-to. She said that similar things had happened to her before, but she just dealt with it at the time and would put the baby on the bed.

[00:27:28] [SPEAKER_01] She said, April 13, 2026, Cunningham said more. Her story kept changing. Said now this time there was also a drop near the front door where he landed face first on the towel floor. Two more drops in the bedroom. She didn't remember the exact number. She would pick him up while believing she was okay, but then she'd have another seizure, is how she would describe it. Then on June 26, 2026, there was a Department of Child Services interview,

[00:27:58] [SPEAKER_01] and in that she said that there were even more drops, including on the tiled living room floor and the tiled kitchen floor and a tiled hallway. So like five separate drops throughout multiple rooms. And the victim would cry, and then she saw the bruise on the forehead and thought he had struck a bed rail. So at that point she said, oh, she checked his breathing. But again, like the story is changing.

[00:28:26] [SPEAKER_01] The pathologist who did the autopsy was Dr. Lindsay Emery, and Dr. Emery found that there was edema and dense hemorrhage involving the posterior scalp, multiple commuted fractures of the ocular, I don't know how to say these words. I'm sorry. I'm too stupid for this. This is why I did not go into medicine.

[00:28:51] [SPEAKER_01] So, you know, basically what they found was that there were multiple intracranial hemorrhages, and they found that those were acute injuries, and those injuries were the approximate same age. That means that they happened at the same time, approximately. So that's what the state is saying. This was not an accident. This could not have been an accident. This would have been blunt impact head trauma that was non-accidental in nature and therefore was classified as a homicide.

[00:29:22] [SPEAKER_01] And given that, and given that Cunningham's story has changed multiple times, they are charging her with the crime of killing her son. So I'll be curious to see things like, does Cunningham have a documented history of having seizures? Could that be something that the defense breaks out as part of their case? In their defense, what's going to happen? I don't know. But an interesting story, a very sad story,

[00:29:50] [SPEAKER_01] where a five-month-old baby is killed. Very sad.

[00:29:54] [SPEAKER_00] It's very upsetting.

[00:29:56] [SPEAKER_01] So my source for this next one, this one's going to be in Montana, and this is CBS News. And so Sunday, August 23rd, 2026, it's Sunday family dinner in a home outside Billings, Montana. And the family is gathered there. That includes great-grandmother Evelyn Smith, who is in her 90s and uses a wheelchair. Dana Smith, who is a grandfather. Barb Smith, grandmother.

[00:30:24] [SPEAKER_01] Megan Gekieri, who is a mother. And their daughter. Daughter of Barbara and Dana. Landon Gekieri, who's 15, and that's Megan's stepson. And Owen Ireland, who is Megan's son. He's 13. Charlotte Gekieri, who's a stepdaughter to Megan. She's 12. And Chloe Ireland, who is seven

[00:30:54] [SPEAKER_01] and is the child of Megan. And so they're all gathered there. Now, someone was not there originally. That was a 44-year-old man who was the son of Dana and Barb and the brother of Megan. He was not there because he had been asked, he'd lived with them for a number of years. He was reportedly emotionally and verbally abusive towards his family members. He was being described as antisocial,

[00:31:23] [SPEAKER_01] would rarely leave his room. No one knew what he was doing in there, couldn't get a job. And he was asked to move out, was asked to leave at 44 years old. So he, that day, instead of doing that, he showed up with a gun and shot his family members to death. All those people I just named were murdered.

[00:31:51] [SPEAKER_01] What happened was officers arrive. They start hearing reports. Something's going on. There's a 911 call from this 12-year-old little girl, Charlotte, before she herself is murdered. She tries to get help for her family. A very heroic effort, but unfortunately for many of her family members, it was too late. They're all shot to death. Then the house is set on fire. So police show up. They hear some gunshots out back, and then the house just is engulfed in flames. The fire gets really bad,

[00:32:20] [SPEAKER_01] and unfortunately this occurred in a subdivision outside of city limits, so I guess there was no fire hydrant nearby. So they had to battle this thing until like 1 a.m. I've never heard, I mean, I've not heard of places that don't have fire hydrants, so that's bizarre to me. But either way, meanwhile the perpetrator, he dies by self-inflicted gunshot wound. He committed suicide,

[00:32:49] [SPEAKER_01] and police find him. I don't think they're sure exactly if he's the gunman or if he's another victim at first, but they ultimately determine that he did this. We're not naming him, because I just think people who do stuff like this don't deserve to be named. While he targeted his own family, it really does seem like very much a mass shooting style type attack. What I always wonder with people like this, maybe this is going to sound really bad, and I'm sorry if people want to get mad at me, fine, but why don't these people just kill themselves first, you know?

[00:33:19] [SPEAKER_01] Like why take it out on these children? Like all of these children who did nothing wrong to this person. I just don't, I mean, I don't know. What do you think?

[00:33:29] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, I've often had that question myself. Like to hear- Why take innocent lives?

[00:33:34] [SPEAKER_01] Just kill yourself. I mean, like literally, like I feel like we should, like that should be the campaign for like would-be shooters. Just, you know, here's what you do first, you know? Like rather than hurt other people, like just take yourself out. You'll be a hero. So they do this. Everyone describes this family as extremely, it's a blended family, very amicable, very loving, very caring. They get along great. The Smiths apparently as a whole

[00:34:04] [SPEAKER_01] were originally from Washington, Seattle, Washington, and sort of followed each other. They moved out to this Billings, Montana area to kind of be near each other. And the shooter had moved there with them. And, you know, he's asked to move and then he kills his grandmother, his parents, his younger sister, and the four children before setting the house on fire like a coward. Family members have spoken to the media and they've said that there were so many red flags about this person for years and that many spoke out and no one listened. I'm very curious and my heart goes out to them

[00:34:34] [SPEAKER_01] because I imagine that is true. This person sounds like a nightmare. I'd be curious, who wasn't listening? Was it people in authority? Was it people like within mental health aspects? Like were they trying to get something for him? Or did they just feel like the family didn't get him out fast enough? I don't know. Either way, it's very scary. It's very sad. And my heart goes out to these people. I mean, people lost everybody in this attack. Like I just, I don't know. It breaks my heart. It really does.

[00:35:04] [SPEAKER_00] It's horrifying. You know, I remember a few weeks ago, I said, well, why don't we do like happy stories? And you scoffed. You just scoffed. You guffawed. You hooted. You hollered. You stormed off. You said it was the worst idea in the world. And I said, well, I mean, if we did happy stories, like here's one and I told you one and you enjoyed it. And look, I noticed that's the next case.

[00:35:27] [SPEAKER_01] Well, I wanted to tip my hat to you. You weren't participating in doing the research for any of this. So you mentioned that this story interested you. So I figured I would include it, you know, as kind of a tip of the old hat to Kevin.

[00:35:39] [SPEAKER_00] Well, I appreciate you doffing the chapeau.

[00:35:43] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. And I don't believe in doing happy stories on a true crime podcast. Everyone's here because they're morbid, including us. I'm not, I don't think we should do any sort of segment around that. But I do think that this actually does speak to something going on a lot recently. And it's important to speak over it.

[00:36:03] [SPEAKER_00] I think my own parents had an experience similar to this.

[00:36:06] [SPEAKER_01] Your parents had a, wait, what?

[00:36:07] [SPEAKER_00] Well, why don't you tell a little bit about the story?

[00:36:10] [SPEAKER_01] My source for this is Fox six now, specifically their contact six team, which sounds like it does a lot of good work and trying to kind of help people. I love, honestly, one of my favorite types of journalism is like that bad-ass team in like the local media outlet where they're like, we're going to like get you your money back or we're going to confront this awful landlord. Like those are my favorite. Like, I just think they do so much like those types, like actually really get a lot done. So we salute them.

[00:36:40] [SPEAKER_00] Service journalism.

[00:36:41] [SPEAKER_01] Service journalism. That's the name of the game. And an unnamed elderly woman in Racine, Wisconsin was apparently scammed. The scammers told her, hey, you're, you know, she's elderly. They say, your computer has been hacked and you owe us a thousand dollars.

[00:37:01] [SPEAKER_00] Because we fixed it.

[00:37:02] [SPEAKER_01] Because we fixed it.

[00:37:03] [SPEAKER_00] I think my parents at one point had someone contact them and say, oh, your computer has been hacked. You owe us a thousand dollars. And I told them that's nonsense.

[00:37:13] [SPEAKER_01] I'm at a point where I've gone from being like, oh, you know, scamming is not good to being like, I think scammers who target elderly people should be like taken out and shot. Like, I just think there's something so evil about that. And I would love to see the book being thrown at people like this. And I would love to see, you know, if it's coming from outside of the United States and there are countries where this is being given refuge to, then, you know, sanctions coming down.

[00:37:42] [SPEAKER_01] Because it's ridiculous. You know, I mean, like, this is, this is so commonplace now. I feel like people are trying to scam me every time they call me. Like, I don't pick up the phone anymore. Because I'm like, I don't know what weird scheme someone's trying to do. Or they're trying to get my voice to unlock something. I just don't know. So, you know, I think this is an important conversation we need to have with our elderly relatives in particular to protect them, though. Because, I mean,

[00:38:08] [SPEAKER_01] they're certainly more susceptible to it in many ways because they are not necessarily used to all the technology.

[00:38:16] [SPEAKER_00] So what happened in this case?

[00:38:18] [SPEAKER_01] Well, delightfully, according to a Hurricane Police Department, this elderly woman sort of inadvertently accidentally turned the tables on her scammers.

[00:38:32] [SPEAKER_00] They told her, get us $1,000 worth of Apple Pay gift cards. And she misheard them and got them $1,000 worth of Applebee's gift cards. Applebee's, of course, being a restaurant.

[00:38:47] [SPEAKER_01] She said they want the apps. And they didn't.

[00:38:51] [SPEAKER_00] They were so upset, they hung up on her.

[00:38:54] [SPEAKER_01] She said, I got you your Applebee's gift cards. And they were like, that's not what we asked you to do. And she's like, well, I don't have any more money. And I'm like, they hung up. I don't mean to laugh, but that's so funny. And it has a happy ending. Because according to her relatives, John and Jill Tubman, they, they were able to get into contact with Contact Six, which then went to Applebee's and explained the situation. Hey, this is a woman who got scammed.

[00:39:23] [SPEAKER_01] She's on fixed income. Can you help her out? She hasn't used, she hasn't used, she's not using these like $1,000 worth of Applebee's gift cards. And they actually gave her $1,000 refund. Apparently, they said, yeah, you can just pick it up in cash from a store. So she got her money back. And she foiled these scammers. And I thought that was kind of delightful. But it underscores a wider problem. You know, most of us are probably not going to get murdered.

[00:39:52] [SPEAKER_01] Let's knock on wood here, but we're not going to get murdered. We might get scammed or we might know someone who gets scammed. It's the kind of crime that happens a lot. And it can be very devastating even when it doesn't lead to death or murder. So I wanted to shout it out, not because it's happy, but because it's happening. And because people need to know about it.

[00:40:15] [SPEAKER_00] It's happy and it's happening. That could be the name of the happy show. Happy and happening with Kevin and Anya.

[00:40:22] [SPEAKER_01] No, I don't because no, like literally, because last time you said, Oh, I'm going to do how I just wanted to do this unobtrusively and throw it in there for you. And you're making it, you're, you're relitigating this whole. And also, I just want to say, I want to say the discipline going on here is a disaster. This man, I've told him to adjust his camera so many times during this recording. He's like hiding. His head is like at the bottom of the screen. I don't know what's going on over there. But the thing is,

[00:40:52] [SPEAKER_01] I wanted to do this unobtrusively. The reason is because nine times out of 10, I'm the one responding to all of you when you send us emails and messages and smoke signals in the sky. And last time everyone was like, don't do this, don't do this. And I had to assure everybody, yeah, we're not doing it. And now you've made me look the fool in front of all those people by making such a big deal about this. So thanks a lot.

[00:41:18] [SPEAKER_00] So this is the comeuppance promised in the title of the episode. This was your comeuppance.

[00:41:24] [SPEAKER_01] This was the comeuppance. Well, this was the comeuppance of the scammers. Not of me.

[00:41:32] [SPEAKER_00] Well, I think we're done. We should get back in the cane helicopter.

[00:41:36] [SPEAKER_01] What? I don't want to go in a helicopter. Oh,

[00:41:38] [SPEAKER_00] are you a little coward?

[00:41:39] [SPEAKER_01] I don't.

[00:41:40] [SPEAKER_00] You're yellow?

[00:41:41] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, I don't want to go in a helicopter. They just seem unsafe. And, and like, if I had to, like if we were being evacuated from Indiana for some reason, sure, I'll get in the helicopter. But like, if I don't have to, I'd prefer to do anything else. Nick is like, Nick is just straight up sitting on you at this point.

[00:42:00] [SPEAKER_00] Yes.

[00:42:00] [SPEAKER_01] Nick, Nicholas, Nick, can you please?

[00:42:05] [SPEAKER_00] So join our premium pages. We'd love to see you there.

[00:42:08] [SPEAKER_01] Can people even hear you? Nick's muffling you.

[00:42:10] [SPEAKER_00] So join our premium pages. We'd love to see you there.

[00:42:13] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. We really appreciate you guys. Every, thanks for everyone who listens. Thanks for everyone who subscribes and makes our show possible. Thanks for Nick for just sitting on Kevin. He doesn't seem to realize like we're recording the show. He just thinks it's the Nicholas show. But I want to say for people who are interested in what Kevin's working on, he is working on what I think is some incredible reporting on 9-11.

[00:42:43] [SPEAKER_01] Stories that I had never known about, never heard before, despite the fact that, you know, I, like, I don't know. I've always been interested in this subject, but you have been doing an amazing job.

[00:42:57] [SPEAKER_00] Thank you, sir.

[00:42:58] [SPEAKER_01] You're welcome, sir. And I think that I'm really excited to hear your coverage of that because I think it's a really important story. And, um, just, I don't know, like, you've been telling me stuff and I've just been shocked. So, I would definitely encourage everyone to tune in when Kevin comes out with that because he's doing such a good job because you're so good at research.

[00:43:21] [SPEAKER_00] Thank you very much. I appreciate your kind words.

[00:43:25] [SPEAKER_01] You're welcome. It's true. So, I'm happy.

[00:43:28] [SPEAKER_00] I appreciate it. And I'm going to try to arrange it. So, if any time in the scripts there's a name that's hard to pronounce, maybe I'll have you say it.

[00:43:36] [SPEAKER_01] Oh, thanks. That's a really nice, it's a really nice gesture given my lovely compliment for you.

[00:43:41] [SPEAKER_00] Wait, it shows my faith in you.

[00:43:43] [SPEAKER_01] Maybe you could just look it up and put in the pronunciation ahead of time. Like, I always try to do. That's another thing you could do.

[00:43:52] [SPEAKER_00] You should. Now, I just got to come up and say.

[00:43:55] [SPEAKER_01] he he he he. All right. Well, thanks guys for listening. Take care. Bye.

[00:44:01] [SPEAKER_00] Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us at murdersheet at gmail dot com. If you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[00:44:22] [SPEAKER_01] If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www dot patreon dot com slash murder sheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www buy me a coffee dot com slash murder sheet. We very much appreciate any support.

[00:44:45] [SPEAKER_00] Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet, and who you can find on the web at kevintg dot com.

[00:44:54] [SPEAKER_01] If you're looking to talk with other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.