The Cheat Sheet: Click and Content

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_00] I am in love with Miracle Balm from our new sponsor, Jones Road Beauty. Now, let's be clear, I'm not the biggest makeup wearer in the world. Sometimes I skip wearing makeup because it just doesn't feel good. It's too cakey, it looks bad or off, and sometimes I'm just in way too much of a rush to apply it well. But when I put on my Miracle Balm, it looks natural, fresh, effortless. I put it on and I could head out to dinner with friends or a little date night with Kevin, or we could go to court. I love how lightweight it feels, and I love that it gives me a bit of a glow.

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[00:01:22] [SPEAKER_00] For a limited time, our listeners are getting a free full-sized mascara on their first purchase when they use code MSHEAT at checkout. Just head to jonesroadbeauty.com and use code MSHEAT at checkout. After you purchase, they will ask you where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them our show sent you. I'm Anya Kane, and today we're going to do a cheat sheet where we go to a bunch of cases in Indiana, one in Illinois.

[00:01:47] [SPEAKER_01] And one is like a national case.

[00:01:49] [SPEAKER_00] It's for everyone. Welcome. Content warning. This episode contains discussion of violence and murder, including the murder of a child, as well as child sexual abuse. All right. So two of these cases on the cheat sheet we've covered before in some depth, and then two are totally new. Totally new. Blindsided.

[00:02:11] [SPEAKER_01] Blindsided.

[00:02:12] [SPEAKER_00] Nick's trying to blindside you right now.

[00:02:15] [SPEAKER_01] Nick likes getting a little sneak previews. He's like looking over my shoulder to see what case is. But Nick is just going to be like everybody else and just wait.

[00:02:22] [SPEAKER_00] See, Nora's waiting patiently by me. My calming influence really soothes her. Whereas you're riling the dogs up over there.

[00:02:28] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, I excite the people. I rile them up. You calm them down. Calls problems. You put the people to sleep. You're soothing ways. And then I rev them up. All right. So we're like salt and pepper.

[00:02:43] [SPEAKER_00] Okay. Shall we go? Let's do this.

[00:02:45] [SPEAKER_01] Let's do it.

[00:02:46] [SPEAKER_00] My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist.

[00:02:49] [SPEAKER_01] And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney. And this is The Murder Sheet. We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases. We're The Murder Sheet.

[00:03:01] [SPEAKER_00] And this is The Cheat Sheet. Click and content.

[00:03:04] [SPEAKER_01] I feel before I should cede the floor to you, Anya Kane, to discuss the first of our cases, I should just give people a warning.

[00:04:00] [SPEAKER_01] A warning is probably not the right word, but let people know the last case I'll be doing, and it's not a murder case. It's not really a crime case, but it is a case that if you're listening to this, if you're hearing the sound of my voice, this is a case that probably directly affects you in some fashion. So I thought it was interesting and worth talking about, even though it's not really a true crime case at all.

[00:04:23] [SPEAKER_00] So you're not accusing our listeners of being involved in a crime. You're merely saying that whatever the outcome of this legal case is will affect them.

[00:04:30] [SPEAKER_01] And I'm just saying probably shouldn't cover the case at all because it falls completely outside the subject matter of our program. But it affects you as an Internet user.

[00:04:39] [SPEAKER_00] Wow. Sounds really griffin.

[00:04:44] [SPEAKER_01] I got your approval. I got your approval.

[00:04:46] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, yeah. I'm easy to get that from. All right. So shall we start out in Indiana?

[00:04:53] [SPEAKER_01] I thought we were going to start out in Illinois.

[00:04:56] [SPEAKER_00] Oh, you're right. Sorry. I'm throwing out the itinerary and really destroyed everything.

[00:05:02] [SPEAKER_01] Whenever Anya is in charge of travel.

[00:05:04] [SPEAKER_00] We accidentally go to Indiana when we mean to go to Illinois.

[00:05:08] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, so I've laid it all out very carefully.

[00:05:11] [SPEAKER_00] All right. So this is a terrible case out of Chicago, out of Illinois. And it's one of those things that if I read a novel where something like this happened, I'd be like, okay, that's a little, that's a lot. But it happens. It does happen. And we're going to talk about it. So thanks to the listener who suggested this. Great minds think alike because she sent it to us as I was thinking about it. And then you came and said, we have to do this one. So I feel like we were all aligned and locked in on this one.

[00:05:39] [SPEAKER_00] My primary source for this is the Associated Press. But I also relied on some newspapers.com accounts from the Chicago Tribune and the Reno Gazette Journal. So let's go back to November 12th, 1960. A little girl, eight years old, Gloria Koelowitz, was walking. This breaks my heart. She was walking to Morning Mass. And she never made it there.

[00:06:09] [SPEAKER_00] This is in Chicago. She's found four hours later, shot to death in a ditch in the Forest Preserve in southwest Chicago. This is hours after she went missing. Police launch a pretty massive investigation. There's a task force. They interview 1,300 people approximately. They knock on hundreds of doors according to them. They question a lot of people. Looking at this, they find a bullet at the scene.

[00:06:39] [SPEAKER_00] They find Gloria's coat, her shoes. And again, this breaks my heart. A white communion purse. And then her prayer book. And it turns up nothing. And so this is like a 65-year-old cold case. But cold case investigators keep on it. They elicit help from the Federal Bureau of Investigation and the Illinois State Police. They employ new technology to try to get as much from the remaining evidence as possible.

[00:07:09] [SPEAKER_00] And they hit pay dirt. They get DNA off of some of the items that they preserved. Namely, Gloria's purse strap. There's a fingerprint on there. There's DNA on these items. So they're looking, okay, maybe we can find this perpetrator who did this heinous thing to this little girl who was just trying to go to mass. And they get a name from this DNA, from these fingerprints. It's Thomas F. McInerney Jr.

[00:07:37] [SPEAKER_00] And this isn't just any person. This is a former Chicago police officer. Not just that. A former Chicago police officer who rose through the ranks to become a homicide detective. It's his DNA. It's his fingerprint. He joined the department a year before Gloria disappeared. 1959. So he was a working police officer at the time of this murder.

[00:08:08] [SPEAKER_00] And he eventually became a homicide detective. I actually looked him up. On newspapers.com, I found a Chicago Tribune from May 13, 1972. And it described the shooting of a 20-year-old young man named Clarence A. Porsche, who was shot in front of the 007 restaurant on 63rd Street. And 37-year-old restaurant owner Ernest Saunders was charged with murder. And they interview Brighton Park homicide detective Thomas McInerney,

[00:08:36] [SPEAKER_00] who said that Saunders thought Porsche was breaking his car windows, and that's why the confrontation happened. So he's working on homicide cases. Like, it's so horrifying. Chicago police have released a statement saying, quote, McInerney should have never warned the CPD star, and it is devastating to accept that he was never identified and held accountable while he was alive. The state's attorney's office in Cook County also released a statement to the Associated Press saying,

[00:09:05] [SPEAKER_00] they're basically trying to, quote, identify cases that may have involved this guy. Because obviously, if you have a murderer of a small child running around and working investigations, who knows what he did with some of those, you know? I mean, like, you'd have to be so messed up to do that to a kid, and then to entrust that person with something so important as murder investigations, it boggles the mind.

[00:09:34] [SPEAKER_00] But it doesn't, it does not end there. So, let's, I was able to find his obituary pretty easily, Chicago Tribune. He was 70 years old when he died, August 30th, 2006. Some biographical information about this guy. Just in case anyone, you know, is aware, I think they're looking at him for other cases at this point, as you can imagine. Sometimes people do something heinous once, and then they're done. I know that's hard for people. People don't like that. They want everyone to be a serial killer.

[00:10:04] [SPEAKER_00] But the fact of the matter is, a lot of people do one and done. And it's hard for us to fathom that, because we think, like, a serial killer, okay, like, they're driven to do this. But the idea that someone could do something like this and go back to life. But the thing is, you're talking about evil people. You know, you're talking about people where either they're evil or something's seriously wrong with them, and they don't think like you and me.

[00:10:29] [SPEAKER_00] So, he was born November 15th, 1935, in Chicago. Notably, his birthday would be three days after Gloria's murder. And he was the son of Thomas F. McInerney Sr. and Winifred Norton McNerney. And he was 28 years with the Chicago police. 28 years. After he retired from there, he went to the Federal Public Defender's Office in Las Vegas and Reno

[00:10:58] [SPEAKER_00] and worked there for a number of years. So, he wasn't just a police officer. He was working with some of these Federal Public Defense cases, which I think they should probably look at some of those cases, too. That anything that he had a hand in, whether it's the Chicago police or the Federal Public Defender's Office, they need to be looking at. It doesn't mean that everything he worked on is botched necessarily, but it – I mean, like, am I crazy or does that raise, like, serious questions?

[00:11:24] [SPEAKER_01] It raises some pretty serious questions.

[00:11:26] [SPEAKER_00] Like, this guy is a lying – You know what? So, I feel like they got to look at that. So, anyways, you have – He's doing that actually found in advertisement in the Reno Gazette Journal from December 20th, 1993, where he's like, hey, send me your resumes. It's like one of the ads of, like, send your resumes. If you want to work for the Federal Public Defender's Office as a part-time investigator, send them to me. We really like it when people speak Spanish. It's like, oh, my gosh.

[00:11:56] [SPEAKER_00] These people were sending their resumes to a murderer. And he also apparently was a veteran of the United States Army. He was a paratrooper. He was an army ranger. He had two sons, three daughters, a stepson, many, many grandchildren. He got to live a whole life that Gloria was robbed of, all because she wanted to go to Mass. And that just breaks my heart. He won the Outstanding Federal Defender Investigator Award in 2003.

[00:12:23] [SPEAKER_00] He retired in 2004, as I mentioned, died two years later. He got to live a full life into his 70s. He got to have children. He got to do all these things that she did not get to do. It makes me freaking disgusted. It makes me disgusted that this guy was running around with a badge. You know, I say this. I mean, there are other cases where stuff like this happens.

[00:12:45] [SPEAKER_00] I mean, the one that comes to mind is serial killer Gerard John Schaefer, who was, I believe, a sheriff's deputy in Martin County, Florida. He would, he, I think he was believed to have killed, I mean, they don't really know exactly how many, but he was believed to have killed a lot of young women. Sexually sadistic serial killer.

[00:13:11] [SPEAKER_00] You had D'Angelo, of course, the Golden State Killer. He was a police officer for a while. So you have these instances where people, I mean, you want the people becoming police officers to be interested in preserving public safety, not killing people. But you have people who get into any, I guess, career for the wrong reasons.

[00:13:41] [SPEAKER_00] And unfortunately, that does happen in law enforcement for sure. But this is the. With those two examples I just cited, they weren't like high level people. To me, a homicide detective, that's a whole new level of crazy here. Because like that is like you're not like, you know, D'Angelo kind of like his his career fell apart after he was shoplifting. He was not a police officer for super long. It still matters.

[00:14:09] [SPEAKER_00] But like this is like his whole career with the Chicago Police Department working as a homicide detective. It just blows my mind. What do you think about this? It blows my mind.

[00:14:19] [SPEAKER_01] It's very it's shocking. It's it's unbelievable to think of him. Doing this work and being around people who themselves were related to people who were victims of violent murders when he himself had perpetrated a similar crime. It's outrageous. A child of a little girl. And it's it's it's enraging.

[00:14:42] [SPEAKER_00] Here's the thing. I mean, because I'm trying, you know, I'm trying to think of like what would the what would the devil's advocate say? And like, you know, I was like, is there any possibility he worked on the investigation and contaminated stuff or things got contaminated that way? But the thing is, I don't think the Chicago police would be like putting this out there. You know what I mean? Like, I don't I don't feel like I mean, they would probably have records, I would imagine. And also he was just a police officer at that point. He was not like a homicide detective because he had just joined.

[00:15:12] [SPEAKER_00] So to me, it seems like they likely I would guess they would likely know that he had no involvement in like processing evidence or doing any of that. And it's touch DNA, which isn't as slam dunk for me as. Like if they found semen or his blood at the scene, but it's still here's the thing. Here's what I keep going back to.

[00:15:39] [SPEAKER_00] If there was an innocuous reason for this, why wouldn't he have come forward? He was a freaking police officer. If he was like, oh, yes, I saw the little girl. I helped pick up her purse and gave it to her and sent her on her way. Why wouldn't he come forward? Because then he'd probably be the one of the last people to see her or even if it had been days earlier. Why not come like you're literally working for the people trying to figure this out? There's no innocent explanation in my mind because of that specifically. We love looking good and saving money. So we love our wonderful sponsor, Quince.

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[00:20:50] [SPEAKER_00] Because of the nature of his job and the duty he should have felt to come forward with whatever information. Because he was literally, that's his job. So yeah, it disgusts me. Burn in hell McInerney. So that's that. Now we're going to, we're not going to, we just came from Illinois. We're going, I don't know.

[00:21:13] [SPEAKER_01] Thank God. I don't know where I am. I stepped up this week and said, Anya, I'm going to make an itinerary that I feel makes sense. But you are, you've got us going zigzagging and stuff.

[00:21:27] [SPEAKER_00] We're doing serpentine.

[00:21:30] [SPEAKER_01] We start in Illinois. We do two Indiana cases. And then we go national.

[00:21:34] [SPEAKER_00] Go national, baby.

[00:21:36] [SPEAKER_01] With a big finish.

[00:21:37] [SPEAKER_00] Big time.

[00:21:38] [SPEAKER_01] The big non-true crime finish that maybe people won't be interested in.

[00:21:42] [SPEAKER_00] You're really setting it up super well. People are getting really excited about this. I can tell. Because guess what? People aren't shutting off. People aren't punching the stop button on their podcast right now.

[00:21:50] [SPEAKER_01] Because you tuned in for a true crime podcast. Guess what? Oh my gosh. It's not about crime. It's your lucky day.

[00:21:59] [SPEAKER_00] That's Kevin's spinoff segment. It's not about crime. Number of listeners, zero. All right. Let's go to Indiana.

[00:22:07] [SPEAKER_01] But it's not a happy story. People, when I said, let's do a happy story, people said, no, don't do that. Kevin, we're concerned.

[00:22:14] [SPEAKER_00] Don't pander to us. We're adults.

[00:22:15] [SPEAKER_01] We're concerned, Kevin, that might positively affect your mental health if you do happy stories. And we don't want that. So it's not a happy story. It's just not a crime story. But go on.

[00:22:26] [SPEAKER_00] All right. So we have Indiana. This is a case that we're a little bit familiar with. In Delphi, there were like, you know, this is, I hope this doesn't sound bad and make people mad at me. But like, you know, with any kind of story, it's sort of like a sitcom. There's always like a bunch of weird spinoffs that kind of, you know, like do their own thing. This was not a spinoff any of us were expecting.

[00:22:52] [SPEAKER_00] But it came out that one of the people who worked on the case at one point, Todd Click, was accused of a bunch of basically falsifying record and forgery charges.

[00:23:05] [SPEAKER_01] Todd Click, in case you don't remember, he is one of the architects, one of the designers, one of the biggest proponents of the Odinist theory. This is the idea that the Delphi murders, the murders of Libby German and Abigail Williams were in fact perpetrated by a white supremacist cult.

[00:23:29] [SPEAKER_01] He's the one that brought this forward to the defense and really, in some measure, is responsible for becoming such a big part of the proceedings.

[00:23:42] [SPEAKER_00] I'll, yeah, that's exactly right. I'll tell you a little bit about Todd Click. So he was the assistant police chief in Rushville, Indiana. And that's in Rush County, Indiana. And as you said, he came into this case because essentially two other investigators who were working on the case, Kevin Murphy of the Indiana State Police formerly, and the late Todd, and the late Greg Ferency, formerly of the Terre Haute Police Department,

[00:24:10] [SPEAKER_00] who both of whom were working on a federal FBI task force, counterterrorism task force. They wanted to, they came in and they had a theory about the Odinism. And they connected with Click and wanted to use, I think, some of his recording equipment. So we ended up helping them with that. And then they kind of became a group, I guess. And I just, I just want to like, their investigation was incredibly, it was like a sandcastle.

[00:24:39] [SPEAKER_00] It was like based on conjecture. It had some interesting facets to it, but the three of them never seemed to be really working with the actual case. They were like working with what they wanted a case to be. I think it was low quality police work. And I think, you know, they, there was a lot of grievances expressed afterwards where it's like they never got to probable cause. And it never went anywhere.

[00:25:04] [SPEAKER_00] But instead of saying, well, maybe that means we're barking up the wrong tree. It was like, no, it's everyone else's fault. Cause you know, they don't want it to be. It just, it seemed more about the egos in this situation than anything else. And, you know, I, I don't know about with, about that with, with officer, with detective Ferenc, because he unfortunately was murdered himself. And so I don't know.

[00:25:31] [SPEAKER_00] We can't ask him, Hey, what was your opinion on this by the end? I don't know if he still thought it was really big or if he'd kind of been like, okay, like let's move on. But what we have is Murphy and Click and their accounts of what happened at one of the hearings, at the three day hearing where they talked about the Odinism at length. Both of them got up on the stand and I felt it was embarrassing because basically they were like, we're not able to really form a nexus.

[00:26:01] [SPEAKER_00] We can't even prove some of these people were in Delphi at the time of the murders, like very basic stuff. And it's like, why are you so committed to something if you don't even have like the basic building blocks of evidence? You know, we can put Richard Allen at the scene. His, a, a cartridge ejected from his gun is there. So how does he explain that? He puts himself on the trails. A person matching his description is captured on Libby's video confronting her on the bridge and her and Abby.

[00:26:30] [SPEAKER_01] But what happened with Mr. Click?

[00:26:33] [SPEAKER_00] I just, I just like, someone like Click strikes me as someone, I, I, I kind of felt bad for him. He struck me as someone who was sort of like a, like a dupe in the sense that like he got very invested emotionally in an outcome and then was sort of used by the defense to put this stuff out there. And I just thought at the time I was like, he's coming away from this looking pretty foolish, but he seems sincere. He seems like a guy who like, I think seems really naive at the end of the day.

[00:27:04] [SPEAKER_00] But if he thinks that this is like how an investigation should be done, because this is how you get wrongful convictions, folks. It's, oh my gosh, these people have such weird beliefs. Let's get them. But like, I felt bad for him because it was like, okay, he kind of got dragged in over his head.

[00:27:17] [SPEAKER_01] So what happened that made you maybe feel a little bit less bad for him?

[00:27:21] [SPEAKER_00] Well, he went to work apparently for the Indiana Department of Child Services.

[00:27:27] [SPEAKER_01] Very important work.

[00:27:29] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. They are tasked with checking in on kids and families that might be in crisis, dealing with sexual abuse incidents, dealing with intimate partner violence, dealing with child neglect, child abuse.

[00:27:39] [SPEAKER_01] The safety and welfare of at-risk children is tremendously important work. I think we can all agree on that.

[00:27:48] [SPEAKER_00] So it's his job as a family case manager to check in with these families face-to-face, get documents signed that need to be signed, do assessments, and, you know, basically assess instances that could be child abuse and neglect. That's very important work. He worked there from July 9th, 2003 to March 2nd, 2004.

[00:28:16] [SPEAKER_00] And at some point he resigned, and this is what we know. So I'm going to just recount some things discussed in a probable cause affidavit, which was created by Michael Leper, who was with the Indiana Office of Inspector General. And the Indiana Office of Inspector General, he's a special agent there. That is about criminal investigations involving state employees within the executive branch, which CPS would fall under.

[00:28:41] [SPEAKER_00] Mr. Leper is a former—or special agent Leper is a former officer with the Indiana State Police. He served there for 32 years. And he gets in a complaint on his desk, April 11th, 2024. Indiana Department of Child Services submits this. And note, this is like a month after the abrupt resignation of this guy.

[00:29:06] [SPEAKER_00] And they say, we believe—like, they've looked into it themselves—we believe that Todd Click submitted official reports that include false information of family visits and forged signatures of parents and caregivers. So Leper looked into it, and this is what he found. He found that Klick falsified at least 10 entries into the system, which is called MAGIC,

[00:29:35] [SPEAKER_00] and forged signatures of parents and caregivers on at least 7 DCS forms. I want to emphasize how important this is, so I want to just briefly describe some of these incidents. One incident in 2024, he says he visited a home in Batesville, said he had numerous face-to-face meetings with this particular family, which was dealing with an intimate partner violence situation, a dangerous situation.

[00:30:03] [SPEAKER_00] He's saying, I'm meeting with them, I'm meeting with them, I'm meeting with them. One time I came to the house to try to meet with them, but it turned out the family—the woman was in Ohio with relatives. Leper talks to her, I don't have relatives in Ohio. Also, these two forms that are required, the safety plan form and a tribal membership form that are required by DCS, I never sign these. This isn't even my signature.

[00:30:28] [SPEAKER_00] Another family, say, he says he met with us on this date. No, he didn't. This was the case of a child who said she had been fondled by a family friend. This was in Holton, Indiana. The other one was in Batesville. So a child dealing with sexual abuse of that kind, and the man supposed to come and deal with the situation and check on them,

[00:30:54] [SPEAKER_00] isn't showing up and is then pretending like he submitted a consent to interview children form. That's not the signature of the caregiver. Another one, he says he meets this whole family in Osgoode. They say that never happened. They never met him. They never signed the tribal membership form. It's not the right signature. Same with the consent to interview the children form.

[00:31:21] [SPEAKER_00] One instance, oh, I met this grandfather, a mother, various children. They're like, he's never even been to our house. We talked to him on the phone like once maybe. Never signed this consent to interview children form. Never signed this trial membership form. And then another one—oh, this one. Actually, the other one, he didn't even do the phone call. This is the one where he's like, yeah, I talked to him on the phone once. He's never been to my house. This is what Leper had to say as a result of this investigation.

[00:31:48] [SPEAKER_00] While I have no information that his complete disregard for DCS policy and children's safety caused any actual harm, these crimes put at least five Ripley County families and 11 children in danger because he failed to perform his duties as he was trained. This goes beyond negligence, obviously, because it's not simply slacking off. He has consciousness of guilt because he's forging signatures.

[00:32:19] [SPEAKER_00] This is horrific. So when this came out, it was like, wow, okay, this guy has zero credibility. But anyways, whatever. At the same time, innocent until proven guilty. So let's see how it plays out. Well, October 5th of this year, 2026, there came out a joint motion in tender of conditional plea agreement.

[00:32:36] [SPEAKER_01] Well, let me jump back a little bit just before that. There's a couple of details that I think are significant. Earlier in the course of all of this, Mr. Click and his attorney released, Oh, here are some people we'd like to call for our defense. And the names on the list of his witnesses, including people like Andrew Baldwin, who, of course, was the attorney for Richard Allen,

[00:33:05] [SPEAKER_01] the man convicted for murdering Abby and Libby in Delphi. So it is clear to me that the intended defense, at least at that time, was, oh, I'm being targeted because of my role in the Delphi murders, that he was trying to exploit that tragedy for his own purposes, even though by his own admission he was guilty of the crime he was charged with.

[00:33:32] [SPEAKER_01] So in my view, and you tell me if you think I'm being too harsh here, it seems like he's consistently sought to use this tragedy for his own gain, whether it's to try to get more attention by coming up with a crazy theory or whether it's trying to use this tragedy as an excuse to get out of the consequences for the acts, which he now admits he made. Because as you're about to tell us, he pled guilty.

[00:34:00] [SPEAKER_00] I think you're absolutely right. I think he absolutely has exploited the Delphi case. I think he disgusts me. Because it's like you're a grown man running around making this all about you. And he, you know, it's like, it's one thing to say, okay, he got caught up in this stupid theory, and it's another thing to look at it from this angle and say, okay, so you don't give a crap about children. You don't give a crap about anything other than, you know, what's convenient for you. I can't imagine. Why would you take this job if you were going to do this?

[00:34:30] [SPEAKER_00] Because, like, again, I mean, we, like, he put people at risk. People could have died. People could have been seriously harmed. And it's a miracle that that didn't happen, but he deserves no credit for that. And then to not even just say, okay, I have a problem and I take ownership for it and whatever, to not say that, to instead say, oh, Baldwin's going to tell us about how I was persecuted for my beliefs on Delphi. Disgusting. Disgusting.

[00:34:56] [SPEAKER_00] His attorney, by the way, is the same guy who encouraged him, Paul Barada, to reach out to Nicholas McClellan with this whole stupid Odinist theory and insert himself into the middle of this. You know, it's my understanding that he's claimed, like, well, I don't want to go against law enforcement, but, like, he's that meme, like, get in there and make it all about you. That's him in this case. I think it's so pathetic. And now to know that he has just no credibility. So he did plead guilty October 5th.

[00:35:25] [SPEAKER_00] There was this joint motion and tender of conditional plea agreement. And, again, represented by Paul Barada, you know, and they moved to withdraw the not guilty plea and plead guilty to forgery. The deputy prosecuting attorney in this was Ray Shuler. And he was sentenced to 910 days with 900 days suspended, five days of actual time served with good time credit for a total credit amount of 10 days served. So I don't think he'll be in prison at all for this.

[00:35:54] [SPEAKER_00] But he does have to complete 100 hours of community service by the end of his probation, 900 days of reporting probation starting on the sentencing date. He needs to pay $100 fee on probation, for probation, $100 administrative fee, and 30 monthly probation fee. If he completes 730 days of his probation, he can terminate the probation and the state won't object.

[00:36:21] [SPEAKER_00] Jeffrey Sharp was the presiding judge on this and sort of accepted this. The abstract of judgment further says that the official misconduct of a public servant charge is being dismissed. So is the falsifying child abuse or neglect information that's being dismissed through the plea agreement. And it was, you know, there was the plea agreement on forgery.

[00:36:41] [SPEAKER_00] And it notes that upon successful completion of probation without any violations, defendant may petition the court to convert the judgment of conviction to class, to a misdemeanor. You know, I just, like, this is the caliber. This guy, I mean, this guy was so clearly a terrible investigator. I think Kevin Murphy should be embarrassed to have been working on this. I mean, I think these guys got so over their head. And there's just no credibility to this.

[00:37:11] [SPEAKER_00] And it was all this, like, weird live-action role-play situation where they're running around pretending like they're uncovering this great conspiracy. And it was all about the egos instead of what was true. And, you know, with Todd Click, I think he was seething. I think he was seething because he was not really brought into this investigation by Unified Command.

[00:37:35] [SPEAKER_00] And I think he, I think he, I think basically him doing this was a measure of some kind of revenge. And if you're that petty and you're that sloppy, but either way, I'm going to say this, you know, like, can you imagine if this, I mean, if they'd been allowed to bring in Odinism, they would have had a forger on the stand.

[00:37:58] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:37:59] [SPEAKER_00] Think about that for a minute. You know, like, they would have a guy doing forgery on the stand talking about this. Like, when you do forgery, when you do crimes that deal with, like, honesty, like, in many respects, you're kind of considered, you know, you don't want to touch, like, you, you wouldn't want to use this guy as a jailhouse snitch because it's like he's a liar.

[00:38:20] [SPEAKER_01] Yes. By his own admission.

[00:38:22] [SPEAKER_00] By his own admission. And so I don't want to hear from any of the freaking idiots in that case about, oh, he was wrong with, he was being pro, all the, all the Richard Allen people. It's like, maybe, maybe, just maybe the defense side of that case just attracts people who are not very good or not very smart.

[00:38:40] [SPEAKER_01] And the things he was lying about were pretty important. It's not like he's lying about not taking the trash out. The stuff he's lying about are pretty important.

[00:38:52] [SPEAKER_00] He's taking a paycheck from taxpayers so he can basically put children at risk.

[00:38:57] [SPEAKER_01] Yes.

[00:38:57] [SPEAKER_00] It's like, you don't have to take that job. You don't have to. And if the workload is too overwhelming, then quit. Or say, hey, I wasn't able to get to this, this, and this. Don't lie. What is wrong with you? Disgust me.

[00:39:15] [SPEAKER_01] So shall we move on?

[00:39:16] [SPEAKER_00] Yes.

[00:39:18] [SPEAKER_01] My source for this case is my case. This is the case of Michael Jerome James, who we've been covering this case. He, of course, has been recently arrested and charged for his alleged role in the murder of Blake and Chynna Dickus about 20 years ago. When he had his initial hearing in court about one week ago, the judge said, hey, you want an attorney?

[00:39:46] [SPEAKER_01] And he said, you don't need to appoint an attorney for me, at least not now, because I think I'm going to be able to put enough money together to get an attorney of my own. And the judge said, fine. We'll give you a little bit of time to do that, because we don't want to just appoint an attorney as a placeholder if you're going to be replacing them very, very soon. And that's how it was left.

[00:40:09] [SPEAKER_01] So with that in mind, also that same hearing, you may recall that Mr. James made a comment about being in solitary or in a cell by himself. So there have been a lot of comparisons made by some people who say they see similarities between this case and Delphi.

[00:40:30] [SPEAKER_01] And I think what we're beginning to see is kind of a conversation is too strong of a word, but it's kind of the people in this case are maybe reacting to things that happen in Delphi. And they say, oh, people in Delphi are getting criticized for this or this. Let's really try to avoid this, that.

[00:40:53] [SPEAKER_01] And so the sheriff of Johnson County, this is the county that includes Franklin, Indiana, which is where this crime occurred, that is Dwayne Burgess.

[00:41:06] [SPEAKER_01] He wrote a letter to the sheriff of Brown County in which he said, hey, I wonder if you could take Michael Jerome James and maybe not isolate him, maybe let him be exposed to other prisoners because maybe it's not such a big story there. The sheriff of Brown County said, hey, that sounds good to us.

[00:41:28] [SPEAKER_01] And so Sheriff Burgess wrote the judge saying, basically, I want to move him, I want to move Michael Jerome James to Brown County so he won't be in solitary anymore. And the judge at that point, perhaps again remembering one of the complaints made by some in Delphi, which was when there was a similar situation in that case,

[00:41:52] [SPEAKER_01] Richard Allen was moved from Carroll County to another place to be incarcerated, initially White County and ultimately Westville. He was moved when he didn't have representation yet because that was a similar situation where he said, well, I'm going to get my own attorney.

[00:42:10] [SPEAKER_01] And so because of that, I believe the judge in this case says, well, I'm going to appoint an attorney for Mr. James to give him advice during this process with the understanding this doesn't necessarily impede his ability to go out and get his own desired attorney.

[00:42:33] [SPEAKER_01] And so the attorney appointed to represent him and give him advice as to whether or not he wants to consent to being moved to Brown County or whether or not he wants to fight that. This is Dorothy, I apologize if I'm mispronouncing this, Dorothy Marjan. She is actually a law partner with Stacey Ulliana, who represented David Cam in a famous case here in Indiana. And of course, more recently, she's represented Richard Allen.

[00:43:03] [SPEAKER_01] So that's what's going on in this case. An attorney has been appointed by the judge to, at the very least, advise Mr. James of his rights concerning this possible transfer to Brown County. And if he's transferred to Brown County, perhaps he won't be kept in the same sort of isolation as he is in Johnson County.

[00:43:29] [SPEAKER_01] But if he is transferred to Brown County, any time he has to be taken to Johnson County for a court proceeding or what have you, he will be transported by Johnson County personnel. So does what I've said make sense? Yeah. Any comments, any observations, any insinuations, any tasteless remarks, anything at all that you have to add to the proceedings with your trademark style?

[00:43:57] [SPEAKER_00] To me, as long as I think safety has to be paramount, safety of other inmates, correctional officers, and Michael Jerome James himself. As long as those three things can be maintained, I think that's fine.

[00:44:17] [SPEAKER_01] Brown County, if you're not familiar with Indiana, it's more of a rural area, lots of hills. There's a pretty large substantial state park in that area, a lot of wooded areas. It's an area where sometimes it can be difficult to get like phone reception. It's not terribly far from Franklin. I'm guessing probably less than an hour away. Don't quote me on that.

[00:44:41] [SPEAKER_01] It's also one county over from Bloomington, Indiana, which is the home of Indiana University.

[00:44:47] [SPEAKER_00] Go Hoosiers!

[00:44:48] [SPEAKER_01] You love IU.

[00:44:50] [SPEAKER_00] Who, who, who, who?

[00:44:51] [SPEAKER_01] You love Brown County. We covered a case in Brown County once. A case where Mr. Baldwin was the defense attorney.

[00:44:57] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. I mean, you know, I don't know. In this interconnected world of the internet, I think, you know, inmates who end up in Brown County jail are probably pretty capable of knowing about the Dickus case. It's, it's, but again, if the Brown County, the Brown County Sheriff knows his jail better than anyone else. So if he feels like he can keep him safe. Okay.

[00:45:23] [SPEAKER_00] Definitely feels like these things are going to be increasingly hot potatoes where it's like, get him out of my jail. You take it. You know, I don't know. It's, it's, it's, it's concerning, but it's a risk. And I, at the same time, I feel like if they feel like they can handle it and everyone's going to be safe. But I just think safety is first. Safety comes for me before convenience, before anything else. So if all of it can be done safely, then kudos to everyone involved.

[00:45:47] [SPEAKER_01] Well, you just made some remarks there about this crazy new interconnected world we have via the internet. So I'm going to jump on that. And I wonder if there's something going on in the world, maybe not connected directly to true crime, but perhaps that has some sort of a connection to the internet. And we're all internet users. Maybe, maybe that would be interesting to discuss at this time. And my source for this is the SCOTUS blog. That's a good blog. What?

[00:46:16] [SPEAKER_01] That's a good blog. It's a great blog. Excellent site, excellent source for Supreme Court things. And this is the Salazar case. So, Anya, let me, let me paint a word picture. Let me take you back to a more innocent time. This is a time prior to you entering this world of ours. You didn't even exist. So, obviously, it was a simpler time. I'm taking you back to 1987.

[00:46:44] [SPEAKER_01] I'm not going to get political, but I'm going to allude to a contentious political issue of the time. A man named Robert Bork. Do you recognize that name? Yes. He was appointed by President Reagan to be on the Supreme Court. Very contentious, controversial pick. Didn't work out for Mr. Bork.

[00:47:06] [SPEAKER_01] Along the way, a reporter contacted a video store where Mr. Bork was a customer. Back then, we had video stores. Nowadays, if you want to watch something, you can stream it or what have you. But back in that day, if you wanted to watch something, you'd have to go to a dedicated video store and pay a small fee, and you'd rent a physical tape that would have a movie or something on it. Mr. Bork did this.

[00:47:36] [SPEAKER_01] The reporter who went to this video store was able to obtain a list of the movies that Mr. Bork was renting and was watching, and he published it. Do you think there's anything wrong with that?

[00:47:52] [SPEAKER_00] Can you run that by me one more time?

[00:47:55] [SPEAKER_01] This man, this reporter, went to a video store and got a list from the employees there of the movies that Mr. Bork had rented.

[00:48:02] [SPEAKER_00] I mean, I don't know. A reporter was going to report. Like, I don't really see that as, like, a big deal.

[00:48:11] [SPEAKER_01] It sparked outrage, and it caused Congress to pass a law, which they called the Video Privacy Protection Act.

[00:48:21] [SPEAKER_00] What was he watching?

[00:48:24] [SPEAKER_01] Nothing bad.

[00:48:25] [SPEAKER_00] Okay.

[00:48:26] [SPEAKER_01] Just ordinary, everyday movies, but it just seemed at the time to be this is a real violation of this man's privacy.

[00:48:32] [SPEAKER_00] It makes me a little bit weirded out, but again, like, again, free speech, I don't know. I don't know. Maybe I'm just jaded.

[00:48:41] [SPEAKER_01] Violation of his privacy.

[00:48:42] [SPEAKER_00] You think it was a violation of his privacy?

[00:48:43] [SPEAKER_01] Well, I'm saying that's how it seemed to us at the time. This law is passed. This law bars a videotaped service provider from, quote, knowingly disclosing to any person personally identifiable information concerning any consumer of such provider. Does that make sense? Do you understand what that law means?

[00:49:04] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, I do.

[00:49:05] [SPEAKER_01] Okay. We, as a nation, are now trying to figure out what that law means. Back in 2022, a man named Michael Salazar subscribes to a free email newsletter. I'm guessing most of you listening might subscribe to different email newsletters. It's 247sports.com. This is owned by Paramount.

[00:49:32] [SPEAKER_01] And while he is looking at this newsletter, he's happened to be logged onto Facebook. As I'm talking to you now, I'm probably logged onto Facebook. So unbeknownst to him, as he's reading this newsletter, as he's watching clips of videos provided for free by this service, this service is letting Facebook know about the videos he is watching.

[00:49:59] [SPEAKER_01] Facebook then uses that information to target advertising to him. So here is the question, and I'm just curious about your opinion, Ms. Cain. If Paramount, the owner of this newsletter, is supplying information to a third party, Facebook, about the videos Mr. Salazar is watching, is that a violation of that statute?

[00:50:27] [SPEAKER_01] Which, again, bars a videotaped service provider from disclosing to any person personally identifying information concerning any consumer of such a provider.

[00:50:38] [SPEAKER_00] I mean, it kind of sounds like it is violating it. I'm not smart enough for this question, but I'm going to say yes.

[00:50:44] [SPEAKER_01] Well, here's the thing. The internet, to some extent, runs on this business model. Everything we do online is tracked, and businesses take that information and use it to sell to other companies, which then target advertising to us.

[00:51:05] [SPEAKER_01] And if this is a violation of that law, when they do this, then in theory, we are entitled to payment because we have been damaged, and the payment would be about $2,500 each. This would really... This would obviously, if a company is doing this to millions of people, they have to pay all of them $2,500. That's a huge deal.

[00:51:31] [SPEAKER_01] And also, the Chamber of Commerce has said, you know, this could really mess up how the internet works.

[00:51:41] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah.

[00:51:41] [SPEAKER_01] So, what do you think now?

[00:51:44] [SPEAKER_00] I'm not knowledgeable enough about the inner workings of the internet to say, like, one way or another, because, I don't know, as much as I feel uncomfortable about my data being shared in some of those contexts, at the same time, like, I don't know, maybe the after effects would destroy journalism as we know it. I don't know. I don't know. It sounds very complicated.

[00:52:09] [SPEAKER_01] Well, what it boils down to... Let's not even worry about the possible consequences. Let's just look at the plain language of this statute. It boils down to how do you define what a consumer is? If I am a consumer of a videotape service provider, what does that mean?

[00:52:34] [SPEAKER_01] This man, Mr. Salazar, did not pay this videotape service provider. He did not pay Paramount. It was a free subscription. But he was getting something from them. Do you have to pay to be considered a consumer, in your mind? You used to cover business and retail.

[00:52:55] [SPEAKER_00] I don't know if you do have to pay, because people are consuming this podcast right now. Yeah. And, you know, there's advertising that supports the podcast, but they don't have to pay for the podcast. I would say they're consuming it.

[00:53:12] [SPEAKER_01] And it also boils down to, let's say I go to an example used by Mr. Salazar is there is, in this country, one blockbuster store that still exists. This is a blockbuster video store. This is one of the stores I refer to where you would go and you would pay to rent a physical copy of a movie.

[00:53:35] [SPEAKER_01] If I go to this store, even if I don't pay to rent a movie there, I might buy something else they sell. Because apparently this store sells a variety of souvenirs, like bandanas for dogs. If I go to that store and I buy a dog bandana, am I a consumer of the store, even if I am not paying for video?

[00:54:01] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, of course you are.

[00:54:03] [SPEAKER_01] Well, the Chamber of Commerce and the people on the other side say, well, no, clearly this law was not passed because people had a concern about the privacy rights of people buying dog bandanas.

[00:54:15] [SPEAKER_00] We want to know about Bork's dog bandana purchases.

[00:54:18] [SPEAKER_01] So that's what it boils down to. Are you a consumer if you don't, are you a consumer of a video store if you're not actually paying to consume a video product from that store? And the courts, an earlier court threw that out. Mr. Salazar said, well, by doing this, they're basically rewriting the law.

[00:54:43] [SPEAKER_01] Well, that's basically how the argument comes about. How do you define a consumer? And it affects us all because, as I say, if you're on the Internet enough to be listening to us, then I suspect at one time or another a company has taken some information about your preferences and shared it with another company for advertising purposes.

[00:55:09] [SPEAKER_01] So if that is found to be in violation of this law, then that's consequences for you. That's consequences for all of us. That would really change how the Internet works. On the other hand, it's just often difficult to take laws that were written in another era and apply them to circumstances of this era. I'm pretty sure that in 1987 people weren't contemplating,

[00:55:36] [SPEAKER_01] oh, let's use this law to regulate technology that wouldn't exist for a couple of decades.

[00:55:41] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah.

[00:55:43] [SPEAKER_01] Where do you come down? What are your thoughts?

[00:55:45] [SPEAKER_00] I don't come down anywhere. I'm not touching that. I have no idea. That sounds – I don't know. I don't know what they're going to do. It sounds like a freaking mess. That's my take.

[00:55:55] [SPEAKER_01] That's your hot take?

[00:55:57] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. I mean, what do you think? You're the one who's Mr. Lawyer.

[00:56:03] [SPEAKER_01] I think it's an example of the inherent challenge of taking old laws in old language and trying to apply them to a new situation. It's very challenging. As I say, in 1987 we weren't thinking about these issues. On the other hand, we've never really had a conversation in this country

[00:56:27] [SPEAKER_01] about how we feel about our information being shared and used like this.

[00:56:34] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, I feel like a lot of people don't like that. I mean, I don't really like the idea of that either, but maybe the internet that would rise from the ashes of that would be even worse, so I don't really know how to feel about it. Like, you know, like I just – I don't know enough about how that would – those consequences and those changes would impact things. Like, it might be worse or maybe it would be better. I don't know. I just don't know.

[00:56:58] [SPEAKER_01] And it might be worth noting the Chamber of Commerce is obviously a very interested party. But when I was reading their brief, they said, you know, a lot of small businesses use cookies and might be sharing information from their website with advertisers.

[00:57:15] [SPEAKER_00] Oh, so small businesses have some sort of moral superiority over everything?

[00:57:19] [SPEAKER_01] No, what I'm saying is it's not just the big companies like Paramount that could be fined millions and millions of dollars. It could be small businesses that could be driven out of business if they had to pay $2,600 or $2,500 to everyone they've done this to.

[00:57:33] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, I mean, it sort of seems like everyone would go out of business. Like, I mean – so I don't know. It feels like they're not going to go for this just based on that. I know they're not supposed to, like, consider the consequences, but – I think they do.

[00:57:51] [SPEAKER_01] So that's my non-true crime case of the week.

[00:57:54] [SPEAKER_00] Wow, well, it's interesting. I'll be curious. I mean, what do you think they're going to do?

[00:58:00] [SPEAKER_01] The conservative majority court, so – This court generally is favorable to business interests.

[00:58:04] [SPEAKER_00] I feel like they're not going to go for this.

[00:58:08] [SPEAKER_01] But it raises some interesting questions, and I know it's fun to argue about what consumer means and things of that nature, but when you read the statute, it clearly seems to be talking about this type of behavior.

[00:58:24] [SPEAKER_00] It sort of seems like they are in violation of that law.

[00:58:30] [SPEAKER_01] And so sometimes when a smart person doesn't want to come to what seems to be the logical conclusion because they worry about consequences or what have you, that can be when you start getting into arguments about what is is or what a consumer is.

[00:58:47] [SPEAKER_00] Oh, that's so stupid. This is why people don't, like, don't trust lawyers and judges anymore. You know? It's like – like, I don't know. It's kind of – on the one hand, like, yeah, I could understand not wanting to unleash absolute devastation on, like, every business in America, but on the other hand, like, if it's in violation of the law, then debating about what a consumer is is just stupid. It's window dressing. It's just – it's not honest, you know?

[00:59:18] [SPEAKER_00] That's my take.

[00:59:19] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:59:20] [SPEAKER_00] Maybe there needs to be – maybe there needs to be legislation about – maybe there needs to be separate legislation about, like, what could be shared or all that. You know, maybe that could be a separate thing that doesn't necessarily, like, destroy all these people with fines, but I don't know.

[00:59:35] [SPEAKER_01] I think the time is overdue for a national discussion about some of these things, but it sounds to me – and correct me if I'm wrong – it sounds to me like you're taking a bold stance and calling for the end of the internet.

[00:59:46] [SPEAKER_00] Yes! Destroy it! I'll kamikaze it myself. I think it's made a lot of people a lot worse and really kind of making our culture a lot stupider.

[01:00:00] [SPEAKER_01] Bold words.

[01:00:01] [SPEAKER_00] Especially social media. I think, like, the internet actually started out okay, and then we got social media, and then that – things went downhill.

[01:00:10] [SPEAKER_01] Do you remember the early days of the internet, or were you just a child?

[01:00:13] [SPEAKER_00] I remember, like, playing on the word processor in my family's, like, family computer desktop, the bulky thing. But, yeah, I wasn't really surfing the web until a little bit later. Like, I remember, like, going on, like, websites in, like, middle school and stuff. And then, of course, I was a big Wikipedia head. But, yeah, I guess that was relatively early.

[01:00:38] [SPEAKER_01] There was a period very early when there was a lot of experimentation, individuals stepping in, doing their own things. It seems like it's become much more corporate over the years.

[01:00:49] [SPEAKER_00] Some – as with any – I mean, podcasts have become more corporate over the years. It started with, like, a bunch of people who were, like, really interested in these topics, and then now it's, like, you know, corporations bottom all up. But I would say this, you know, I think a lot of things are forced down Americans' throats without a vote, without any sort of consent. We've seen a lot of that with, you know – I mean, I'm not even weighing in on this, pro or con, but people are very unhappy about data centers

[01:01:18] [SPEAKER_00] and asking how is this – why is this necessary? Why does this have to come to my community? What are the environmental harms? What are the physical harms of me and my family? What is this going to do to my property? What are the things that I live in? And, hey, you're saying that this is only going to bring in, like, ten jobs. Why is it worth it for us to have this here? And it feels like, again and again, you read stories about local town councils,

[01:01:43] [SPEAKER_00] you know, for some reason bringing this stuff in when – and basically telling the voters, go take a hike. We don't care what you say. And I think we're getting to a point where, like, a lot of stuff is being unleashed with AI that people feel like, okay, whatever benefits this technology could have, this is going so fast and we're being told, okay, welcome to the permanent underclass and we're all going to die, but it's still worth it because it's AI. And people are getting really sick of this.

[01:02:10] [SPEAKER_00] I think people are getting really angry about some of this stuff. And whether that's right or wrong or whether that'll be borne out or not, I don't know. But I feel like at some point there is going to have to be something addressed with some of this technology that's promising to make major changes to people's lives or be super invasive to people's lives or invade their privacy like we've been talking about and find parameters instead of just basically trusting the people making this technology

[01:02:38] [SPEAKER_00] to, like, regulate themselves, which never, ever works. So, yeah. I can understand the sentiment behind the concerns about this, although I kind of doubt that they're going to, like, say, yeah. Millions of dollars. Honestly, that just seems like it would, like, crash the economy. But I think there does need – maybe a reckoning is still something that should happen at the legislative level.

[01:03:09] [SPEAKER_01] Something.

[01:03:10] [SPEAKER_00] Something. All right, you all done?

[01:03:13] [SPEAKER_01] Y'all?

[01:03:14] [SPEAKER_00] I said you all done.

[01:03:16] [SPEAKER_01] Like I said, y'all done?

[01:03:17] [SPEAKER_00] You're the only person here, so it's not plural.

[01:03:21] [SPEAKER_01] Well, you could be addressing your words to our dear friends, the listeners. You could be including our dogs. I'm here with two of our dogs.

[01:03:30] [SPEAKER_00] Nick is asleep under the table, and then Nora is passed out on the couch. Right. Well, are you done?

[01:03:39] [SPEAKER_01] Well, I am, but are y'all done?

[01:03:44] [SPEAKER_00] So I should tell people about a cool event that's coming up, right?

[01:03:49] [SPEAKER_01] Please do.

[01:03:51] [SPEAKER_00] So this is pretty neat, but it's coming up next month, so I would just ask everyone if you're interested, maybe put it on the calendar. So I am going to be at – let me actually, like, figure out what this is.

[01:04:26] [SPEAKER_00] Okay, so on November 19th, which is a Thursday, at 7 p.m. at the Church on Jefferson Event Center in Franklin, Indiana, I'm going to be appearing and interviewing Lindsay Fitzharris. This – we are going to be – I'm going to be talking with her about her new book,

[01:04:56] [SPEAKER_00] Sleuth Hound, The Case of the Real Sherlock Holmes, and she is so impressive. Dr. Fitzharris is a New York Times bestselling author. She's been a television host. She's a medical historian. She has a doctorate from University of Oxford, and her work has appeared all over the place from The Lancet to The New Scientist to The Wall Street Journal. And she's done a number of different books, The Butchering Art, The Face Maker, and this

[01:05:24] [SPEAKER_00] one, The Sleuth Hound, is obviously up my alley because it's all about the mysteries. This is going to be so fun. So you got to register with your Johnson County Public Library card. That is who is doing the event. And the first 100 ticket holders will be upgraded, and they'll get a free copy of The Sleuth Hound. And you got to do this by November 12th. But I'm really excited for this. You should register.

[01:05:52] [SPEAKER_00] We'll include a link to this in our show notes, and we'll also include a link on our events page on our website. But definitely come there. There'll be books for sale from Morgenstern Books. And again, it's going to be all about The Sleuth Hound. It's going to be all about Dr. Fitzharris. But I will be there essentially moderating, asking her questions, and standing back and letting her be brilliant. But I'm really excited for it.

[01:06:20] [SPEAKER_00] And please come and support Dr. Fitzharris and her great book. And Kevin, say hi to me too. It'll be fun. And Kevin's going to be there and watching me. So that'll be nice. But anyways, that's the event that we have scheduled right now in November. There might be more to come. But I think we need to get confirmation on those first. Right, Kevin?

[01:06:41] [SPEAKER_01] Yes.

[01:06:42] [SPEAKER_00] Anyways, take care and be safe. And we'll talk soon.

[01:06:46] [SPEAKER_01] Thanks so much for listening to The Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us at murdersheet at gmail.com. If you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[01:07:07] [SPEAKER_00] If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com slash murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www.buymeacoffee.com slash murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.

[01:07:30] [SPEAKER_01] Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for The Murder Sheet, and who you can find on the web at kevintg.com.

[01:07:40] [SPEAKER_00] If you're looking to talk with other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience, as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.