The Cheat Sheet: Coffee and Coups d'état

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_02] I'm Anya, and today on The Cheat Sheet, we're going to be talking about cases as far away as Haiti and as close as Indiana. Content warning, this episode contains discussion of the sexual exploitation of children, as well as murder and violence.

[00:00:19] [SPEAKER_02] So, today is June 4th, 2026. It's not our first June cheat sheet, but it's the first one we're recording in June because we've been a bit ahead on the cheat sheets.

[00:00:32] [SPEAKER_00] Yes, and I should say we just got back from CrimeCon, which for you guys was a couple of weeks ago. And we actually did a whole episode about our experiences at CrimeCon for our subscribers. If you're interested in getting extra episodes and hearing about things like that, please subscribe via Apple or Patreon. But I did want to take a moment here and just talk about what a great time we had at CrimeCon.

[00:01:00] [SPEAKER_02] Oh yeah, we had a blast meeting some of you guys. All of the people we met were delightful. When I say some of you guys, I mean we didn't meet all of you, obviously. But we did meet a lot of people and they were all delightful.

[00:01:12] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, I had a great time at some lovely people. One guy kept on coming up to me and telling me how much his wife loves us. Oh! So, bless her. One person told me about his dog, Barney, who had passed away. Oh yeah. So, I really feel like we have a wonderful community here and thank you all for forming it for us.

[00:01:36] [SPEAKER_02] I really am so grateful because it's so fun and we're like awkward people. You know, the people at CrimeCon know. But in all honestly, like it's like, it's just really nice. People are just so sweet and kind and you know, we just, we really enjoy getting those opportunities to meet some of you and having those nice conversations. It's really, it's forming a community. It's like, we're just kind of in here in our little house being like, you know, talking to each other.

[00:02:05] [SPEAKER_02] But when we get to have those in real life conversations with all of you, it really kind of makes it a lot of fun. So, thanks for everyone who coming up and saying hi to us and making us feel welcome at CrimeCon. You're very sweet. So, shall we move on?

[00:02:19] [SPEAKER_00] Let's do it.

[00:02:20] [SPEAKER_02] Let's hit the button. My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist.

[00:02:24] [SPEAKER_00] And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

[00:02:27] [SPEAKER_02] And this is The Murder Sheet.

[00:02:28] [SPEAKER_00] We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews and deep dives into murder cases. We're The Murder Sheet.

[00:02:36] [SPEAKER_02] And this is The Cheat Sheet. Coffee and coup d'etats.

[00:03:26] [SPEAKER_00] So you're starting close to home.

[00:03:28] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, I'm not, you know, we just went to Las Vegas. We just went to the strip and saw all, you know, all of Sin City. And now we're home. So I'm going to stick close to Indiana. We'll be going up north to Fort Wayne, a city that we are, you know, relatively familiar with. We spent a lot of time up there going to, you know, hearings regarding the Delphi murders case.

[00:03:52] [SPEAKER_00] So we're going back to Fort Wayne. And we have a dog from Fort Wayne.

[00:03:55] [SPEAKER_02] We have a Fort Wayne dog. We have an Allen County hound. He's not really a hound. He's a Husky mix and he's very poorly behaved. But we love him. That's Nick. And then Nora is a South Bend girl, we think. But we don't know for sure. So they're from two of the, two of the Indiana cities. And yeah, this case was kind of more discussed a couple weeks ago.

[00:04:20] [SPEAKER_02] We kind of didn't cover it immediately, but I figured it might be good to revisit now just with more information out and some initial reactions and kind of giving you our take on it. And that's just based on what we've seen. Obviously, with a case like this where there's some controversy and it's ongoing and investigations are ongoing, I do think it's important to be prudent about discussing it. What you say, what you don't say. But I also think it's also important to be open minded.

[00:04:48] [SPEAKER_02] So keep that in mind as we talk about it today. This is something where if there's more information, if there's information that changes things, obviously people should be open minded and be willing to change their mind about it. So that's all one can hope for when we're talking about public events. But all right. So let's go to Fort Wayne. We're going to a Tim Hortons in Fort Wayne. And it was on a street called Ice Way in Fort Wayne, an interesting name.

[00:05:17] [SPEAKER_02] And this incident occurred on May 13th, 2026. And if I could summarize it, sort of a dispute over a drive through order turned deadly. And we're recording this on June 4th, 2026. And even though there was a death in this case, charges have not been filed. We're going to talk about that. But we're going to start off by talking about the facts laid out there by Fort Wayne, the Fort Wayne Police Department.

[00:05:44] [SPEAKER_02] They laid out facts and a timeline as far as their investigation went. And they released this on May 19th, 2026. So we're going to go through that. Then we're going to analyze the footage that was released in this case. I'm going to kind of talk you through what I saw. And I'll be curious, Kevin, getting your takes. So we're going to get the police's version. We're going to get that surveillance version that we're going to be analyzing. And then we'll talk about what happened here and why maybe there are no charges.

[00:06:13] [SPEAKER_02] So this is what they started out with. Quote, the Fort Wayne Police Department recognizes that any loss of life is tragic. When the circumstances surrounding a death are not immediately clear, those circumstances must be thoroughly and professionally investigated. Following the incident that occurred at the Tim Hortons on May 13th, 2026, involving 75 year old Anita Grayson and a store employee, FWPD homicide detectives and crime scene personnel conducted a full death investigation.

[00:06:43] [SPEAKER_02] Detectives interviewed witnesses, collected and reviewed surveillance video, gathered evidence and fully documented the scene. The Allen County coroner's office was contacted and an autopsy was requested. At this time, the cause and manner of death remained pending. Completed investigative file was sent to the Allen County prosecutor's office for review on May 19th, 2026.

[00:07:07] [SPEAKER_02] FWPD initially released limited information about this case out of respect for Miss Grayson's family and in an effort to avoid causing additional distress following the tragic loss of a loved one. However, a dangerously false narrative, along with poor quality video circulating publicly, has led to a significant public concern and misinformation.

[00:07:28] [SPEAKER_02] For that reason, and because it is in the public interest, FWPD is releasing the facts of the case, along with a clear and complete video of the events that occurred inside Tim Hortons. End quote. What do you think about this to start off with?

[00:07:42] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, I remember when this happened last month, there was certainly a lot of chatter about it online and all sorts of stories were circulating. So I guess the police are just saying we want to make sure people have the actual truth.

[00:07:59] [SPEAKER_02] Yes, sometimes that can be necessary when you have a case that's getting out of control with misinformation that, you know, the way around that oftentimes is public transparency. So this is the timeline they break down. I'll go through that and then I'll kind of do my quick recap of the video. How does that sound? Sounds great. Quote, at approximately 8.09 a.m., Miss Grayson entered Tim Hortons to address an issue with an order she had received through the drive-thru.

[00:08:25] [SPEAKER_02] Once inside, Miss Grayson began berating a 17-year-old female employee. A 20-year-old shift lead then stepped between Miss Grayson and the juvenile employee and repeatedly told Miss Grayson to leave the business. Miss Grayson then appeared to move around the shift lead toward the juvenile employee. The shift lead placed her hands against Miss Grayson in an apparent effort to prevent her from reaching the juvenile employee. Miss Grayson then forcefully shoved the shift lead backwards.

[00:08:51] [SPEAKER_02] At 8.12 a.m., Miss Grayson then struck the shift lead on the side of the nose with her right hand. At that point, the shift lead reacted and moved towards Miss Grayson while swinging her arms in an attempt to strike her. During the physical altercation, Miss Grayson grabbed the shift lead's face, leaving scratches and knocking off her glasses. Miss Grayson then grabbed the shift lead by the hair and pulled her to the ground and rolled on top of her. The shift lead can be seen swatting at Grayson's arm as she's being held by the hair.

[00:09:19] [SPEAKER_02] Two Tim Hortons employees moved in and attempted to separate them, but struggled to get the shift lead's hair out of Grayson's hand. During the struggle, Miss Grayson pulled a chunk of hair from the shift lead's head, leaving a raw area on top of her head. The parties eventually separated. The shift lead's hair can be seen falling from Miss Grayson's hand onto the floor. The employees retreated behind the counter, and Miss Grayson sat down at a table and began speaking on her cell phone. At one point, Miss Grayson picked up the shift lead's hair from the floor and placed it into her bag.

[00:09:47] [SPEAKER_02] At 8.22 a.m., Miss Grayson laid down on the floor. The shift lead noticed and went to check on her, bringing her a cup of water. An additional employee also checked on Miss Grayson as she laid on the floor. An FWPD officer then arrived and found Miss Grayson unresponsive. Medics arrived and began life-saving measures. Miss Grayson was transported from the scene and was later pronounced deceased by medical personnel. FWPD understands the public concerns surrounding this case.

[00:10:11] [SPEAKER_02] We recognize the importance of transparency, accuracy, and allowing the investigative and prosecutorial review process to proceed based on the full body of evidence, not incomplete video clips or inaccurate public narratives. Okay. Based on what they're saying there, what are your thoughts? When you hear that kind of fact pattern, what do you think? What are you thinking about? What questions do you have?

[00:10:36] [SPEAKER_00] I have a question, first of all, about what exactly caused the death and why was this woman behaving in this way?

[00:10:46] [SPEAKER_02] Yes. It certainly makes Miss Grayson look like the aggressor, right?

[00:10:53] [SPEAKER_00] It certainly does.

[00:10:54] [SPEAKER_02] Right. She's coming in. She's confronting verbally in the beginning a juvenile employee, screaming at her, and then getting into it with the shift lead when the shift lead basically tries to prevent her from coming into the employee-only area. She lashes out violently and injures a young woman who was the shift lead.

[00:11:13] [SPEAKER_00] And obviously, you don't deserve to die just because you make some bad choices like that.

[00:11:23] [SPEAKER_02] No.

[00:11:24] [SPEAKER_00] And also, whenever I see videos and such, I always remember that we're only seeing a certain moment in time, and sometimes things can look very differently when you have the full context.

[00:11:37] [SPEAKER_02] I think it's really important to say all that. I think you also have to note, like this is the police saying it. So, I mean, what does the footage actually look like? You know, is it coming off differently than what they're painting it out to be? So, I'm going to talk to you now. The notes I took, I took detail. I was doing the thing where it's like I watch a few seconds and then I write notes and then kind of going through this whole video that they posted. And, you know, it shows the confrontation.

[00:12:07] [SPEAKER_02] It doesn't really show a lot about what happened afterwards, but it kind of takes you through the confrontation. And, ultimately, that is pretty important based on what, you know, that's what is, you know, connected to her death potentially. So, it's about three minutes. You see the inside of this Tim Hortons. You see this white tile floor, a few tables and booths. There's the counter. It's sort of in an L shape that goes from almost the top left-hand corner of the video to the top right-hand corner, if I could describe it in that way.

[00:12:35] [SPEAKER_02] You see like a little glass part of the counter that shows baked goods on display. You see a refrigerated area for drinks. Then, I think after that, there's a kind of a part where maybe the cash register is where you'd be kind of placing your order. Then there's almost go around on the L shape and at the end of the L, there's like this little gate almost separating the behind-the-counter area from the rest of the store. So, that's the layout of what we're talking about. The confrontation will happen at that latter part where I talk about that little gate.

[00:13:02] [SPEAKER_02] Now, if you've ever worked in retail or cover retail, there's a lot of stuff where like you're not – like customers do not go back behind the counter. Like that's not allowed. You're not allowed to do that. But anyways. So, you see a shadow kind of come into the light streaming through the door. You see like someone is kind of emerging and then you see a woman walk into the store. She looks older. This is Miss Anita Ann Grayson. She is – she's gray hair pulled into a bun.

[00:13:31] [SPEAKER_02] She's wearing what looks like either blue jeans or blue pants, a blue jacket or shirt and then a patterned blouse underneath that. And pale colored slides are kind of – shoes that kind of look like sandals. And she appears to be holding something in her right hand. She sort of strides in, goes to the counter. At this point to me, nothing looks amiss. Like if I didn't know what I was looking at, I would think she was just a woman going into order. So, nothing looks wrong. And also, there's no sound in what I was viewing.

[00:14:00] [SPEAKER_02] So, she stands at what I thought was the register area for a moment and walks rightwards along the counter and sort of moves backwards toward that gated portion of the counter I mentioned. There's also a kind of a clearish frosted partition there. Hard to see through. I saw movement back there almost like there's an employee back there. But I couldn't really tell. So, see Miss Grayson continuing to kind of back up. She sort of backs up to that station. And I, you know, I think that's where people were picking up their orders.

[00:14:30] [SPEAKER_02] So, you see an employee move in that area at this point. You see another employee who I didn't really get a super clear view of but she also looked pretty young. Moving from an area behind the baked goods portion. Miss Grayson is just standing there. She's holding something. She's leaning over like she's addressing the employees. Nothing at this point looks amiss. Again, you might just think she's chatting with the employees or hey, like where's my order or whatever. It doesn't necessarily look confrontational. But of course we can't hear anything.

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[00:18:03] [SPEAKER_02] Scammers aren't waiting. Neither should you. Go to greenlight.com slash msheet right now to get started. That's greenlight.com slash msheet. Greenlight.com slash msheet. So at some point the video kind of cuts. It sort of zooms in on this interaction between her and the employees. And at this point it's a very different vibe as they say. Ms. Greeson seems overtly agitated. She's gesturing. She's pointing around.

[00:18:31] [SPEAKER_02] You can see her mouth really moving. Like she's yelling. Like she's having this kind of agitated conversation.

[00:18:37] [SPEAKER_00] Do we have any idea what this agitated conversation may have been about or what provoked it?

[00:18:43] [SPEAKER_02] My understanding from media reports was that she felt there was a problem with her order and was upset about it. Now we've all been in a situation where maybe the drive-thru messes up our order. It can be annoying. I'm a big believer in you need to treat retail employees with respect at all times. They have a difficult job dealing with the public. And even if you're frustrated, that doesn't, you're an adult, you need to not freak out. So that's my own personal bias. But I am biased because I was a retail reporter at Insider for six years.

[00:19:11] [SPEAKER_02] So you hear horror stories and my sympathies lie typically with the retail employees. Doesn't mean that they can't be in the wrong here. It doesn't mean that they get everything right. But I just, there's a certain type of person who's extremely rude to retail employees. And I just, I don't stand for that. So anyways, but of course someone being rude is not a reason to physically attack them. Right.

[00:19:32] [SPEAKER_01] Right.

[00:19:33] [SPEAKER_02] A lot of this is going to get down to like self-defense and what's acceptable behavior and what self-defense versus what's going too far. And that's going to be a lot of what we determine. It's not about someone could be very rude to you and you don't get the beat them up. Right. So, so anyways, so they're, they're, this is kind of becoming confrontational or seems to have become confrontational. She's really gesturing a lot. She's pointing. She's kind of pointing at the employees.

[00:20:02] [SPEAKER_02] It looks aggressive. Now the employee that she's talking to appears to be a young woman. They said she was 17. She's also gesturing. She seems calmer than Grayson. She's kind of doing this palms down gesture, almost like that's deescalated and kind of like cool it down. Her posture seems to me very defensive. Obviously this is my own view. It's colored by my own experiences and whatnot, but she seems to almost, it's kind of like back off, you know what I mean? Or like, can we like, let's cool it down.

[00:20:31] [SPEAKER_02] And she's sort of shaking her head. She does a bit of pointing too, but she, it's, it seems more defensive. Um, Grayson's pointing almost seems to be getting closer and closer. Like she's kind of jabbing her finger at her, you know, kind of like getting more close. Now a second woman steps in from behind the first. This is the shift lead. She points her right hand away from Grayson toward the door, almost as if she's gesturing and asking her to leave. So she's kicking her out of the restaurant or the store.

[00:21:01] [SPEAKER_02] Um, she is wearing glasses. She seems to be wearing some kind of headset maybe for the drive through. She makes a gesture at some point. She's trying to get her, you know, almost like she's trying to get her to cool it down again. Um, and she again points to the door. So like this seems to fit with what the police outlined. Like there's a confrontation. They're asking her to leave. The shift lead has intervened on behalf of a juvenile employee who is being berated. All of that is what that appears to be what is happening here. Right?

[00:21:31] [SPEAKER_02] Like there's nothing in this that makes me think, okay, that that doesn't look like what they're saying. Um, and the other employee at this point is behind the shift lead, but she kind of comes up behind her and Grayson leans toward her. There's a very brief moment. I watched this a couple of times and I'm just going to say it's a little ambiguous. It's a brief moment where at one point, um, the employee behind the shift lead sort of moves back suddenly.

[00:21:57] [SPEAKER_02] And then Grayson moves in such a way where I think it's possible. She at that point reached behind the kind of shift lead and touched the 17 year old juvenile employee or at least tried to point it at her or something like that. It's not super clear. You do see her arm kind of come back down at that moment, but she's moved in a way where her back is toward the camera and you can't quite see. I think it's possible that she was reaching or doing something, but she almost appears

[00:22:24] [SPEAKER_02] to be trying to get to the 17 year old front through this shift lead, which is obviously inappropriate. Right. Um, at the very least it's, it's ambiguous. Uh, I think that is what happened though, because then what happens next makes more sense. Um, you see the shift lead at that point, put a hand on Grayson kind of blocking her from

[00:22:49] [SPEAKER_02] coming in, kind of blocking her from getting to the 17 year old, you know, she's not shoving her. She's just kind of putting her hands out, kind of like back off. Then you see Grayson shove the shift leads arms away. She kind of shoves her back. What do you think so far? Cause I, I've seen a lot of people kind of be like, well, the shift lead put her hands on her first. First of all, I'm not necessarily convinced that that's the case here.

[00:23:18] [SPEAKER_02] But second of all, there's kind of, if I, if I'm trying to block someone, I put my hands on them to not get them to charge somebody behind me. Is that an invitation to be shoved?

[00:23:31] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. It's an interesting situation, but it is ambiguous. And if you're just trying to stop someone from coming at you, that doesn't necessarily mean you're trying to escalate a situation.

[00:23:48] [SPEAKER_02] Right. I think some people are treating it almost like it's a game of tag of like, oh, who touched who for it's, it's more ambiguous here because she is, in my view, Grayson is the aggressor at this point. Now, that can be true. But like, if in this situation, somebody pulled out a gun and shot her, I would say, well, that seems like a really excessive response. Right. Um, you know, like that, that doesn't feel like self-defense at that point.

[00:24:18] [SPEAKER_02] But we'll talk about what happens next and we'll see if this situation remains ambiguous or what, what seems to be happening. So I mentioned she shoves the shift leads arms away. Um, the shift lead at this point kind of lunges forward a bit, seems to be yelling at her. Definitely gets closer to Grayson. You see the sort of gate opening between them a bit. And, um, Grayson takes her right arm at this point and either punches the shift lead in

[00:24:46] [SPEAKER_02] the face or shoves her back really hard with her hand. You see the shift leads head whip back. Her like mouth is open. What? Yeah.

[00:24:56] [SPEAKER_00] So now it's become much less ambiguous and it's an obvious physical assault.

[00:25:03] [SPEAKER_02] Grayson is the, yeah. Grayson is the aggressor here. I mean, there's no watching this video. There's no, I mean, like the employees yelling at you and telling you to leave the store does not give you the right to shove somebody in the face or punch somebody in the face or whatever she was trying to do here. I mean, that's just obviously not. Um, so at that point, the video kind of shows the closeup of this. Next, we see the shift lead coming out of the gate.

[00:25:32] [SPEAKER_02] Um, Grayson's stance is like her left foot is forward. Her right foot is back. The shift lead comes out of the gate. Her arms seem to be raised. Grayson's right hand is raised going for the shift leads head again. The shift lead sort of swings her right hand at Grayson downward. Her feet are kind of in the air a bit. Um, I will say Grayson is a bigger person than the shift lead. Um, but also the shift leads far younger, right? Um, than Grayson who is 75 years old. So, uh, you see, uh, they, they kind of slap at each other.

[00:26:01] [SPEAKER_02] You see Grayson get a hold of the employee's hair. Uh, the, uh, the, the shift leads rather hair, the shift leads glasses fall up. Uh, both of Grayson's hands are reaching for the shift lead space. Grayson's purse. I think what it is, it hits the floor or some kind of black and silver thing. She was holding. You see the shift lead sort of, um, you know, wind up with her right hand. Her mouth is open. She's leaned back. And at this point they kind of go behind what looks kind of like a lamp.

[00:26:29] [SPEAKER_02] It's a bit harder to see them at this point, but Grayson flinches at one point, like she's been struck. Um, you see both women fall back. Grayson falls first onto her butt and then her back and then her legs go up. The shift lead kind of, they kind of almost seem to get tangled together. Like they've been, they're falling together. The police say this is because, uh, great, uh, Grayson had the shift leads hair in her hand.

[00:26:54] [SPEAKER_02] Uh, that fits with what we're seeing here, but it is hard to tell, but it's certainly, that would make sense. Right. And we just saw her going for her head. So it kind of, yeah, I mean, it fits. And then, um, at this point you see other employees running out from behind the counter. You see them go over to Grayson who's sprawling, kicking her feet in the air. She still seems to be fighting and grabbing people. Like Grayson is not making any attempt to give up or deescalate or get back.

[00:27:23] [SPEAKER_02] Um, but ultimately the, you know, they kind of bunch up around her. It's a bit hard to see what's going on, but you do see the employees pull the shift lead and the, um, and Grayson apart. The shift lead gets up, she's standing, she's clutching her head and employees kind of pulling her away. Another employee is crouched over Grayson who immediately sits up. You see something dark fall on the floor. It's circled in red by police. This is apparently a piece of the shift lead's hair that was torn out by Grayson, according to them.

[00:27:53] [SPEAKER_02] So, um, an employee reached, the 17 year old, I believe, reaches down and grabs that, um, points at the purser bag and throws her hands up after shoving the purse away. Then gestures dismissively at Grayson who's sort of kneeling, sitting there looking up at them. The employees all get away from her and get back to the counter, um, seemingly as quickly as they can. And you have, um, Grayson sitting there, she gets up kneeling, she stands up, leans against the seat.

[00:28:23] [SPEAKER_02] And then the video kind of cuts to her sitting there. You can't really get a good look at her, but you see another guy there on the phone. Um, and that's it. So what do you think of that?

[00:28:35] [SPEAKER_00] If the video is a full and accurate account, it certainly seems as if this was a physical confrontation initiated by Miss Grayson. It would feel like there was a strong argument that the employees reacted in self-defense.

[00:28:51] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, I think it's, I mean, I'll share more of my opinions on this at the end, but that was my view. Um, now what we've had so far is the, there's been preliminary findings from the Allen County coroner's office. Although I think full results are pending. Uh, this was released, um, May 19th as well. This is what they said quote on May 13th, 2026.

[00:29:18] [SPEAKER_02] The Allen County coroner's office was notified by a local hospital regarding the death of an individual involved in a verbal and physical altercation. At a local Tim Hortons of Ice Way, Fort Wayne, Indiana. Emergency personnel were summoned and Three Rivers Ambulance Authority transported the decedent to a local hospital where death was pronounced. The autopsy has been completed. And the decedent has been positively identified as Anita Ann Grayson, a female black age, uh, 75 of Fort Wayne, Indiana.

[00:29:46] [SPEAKER_02] Anita Ann Grayson's cause of death is pending and the manner of death is pending. The preliminary autopsy findings noted no significant contributory injuries. The incident remains under investigation by Fort Wayne police department, the Allen County prosecutor's office and the Allen County coroner's office. E. John Brandenberger, MD Allen County coroner's office. So they're saying no significant contributory injuries. That's notable. If this was a situation where it's like somebody punched her in the face or she hit her head.

[00:30:16] [SPEAKER_02] Badly or somebody stomped on her ribs or something, or then that would potentially show up in the autopsy. And then you would have a situation where like, okay, the fight directly killed her. Is that right, Kevin?

[00:30:30] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:30:30] [SPEAKER_02] Now it's not saying that the fight wasn't involved in killing her, but as far as like overt injuries, they're saying that those are not present here. Um, you unfortunately have had people, you know, well, this case has become controversial. I think it's interesting. I think that it's taken on kind of a, a tone of people talking about the racial angle, as they mentioned, Miss Grayson was black. Um, and it appears, although it's not entirely clear that at least the shift lead was white.

[00:31:00] [SPEAKER_02] Although again, like, you know, it can be different. It can be, you're not really seeing a super clear view of anyone in this thing, but I can tell you, like, I'm pretty sure from watching the video that at least some of the employees that intervened were not white. So I don't know, like it, it just sort of, I think like, I mean, listen, when you have a situation like this, obviously people are going to look at every angle. And I think that's fine.

[00:31:23] [SPEAKER_02] And I think sometimes maybe, you know, uh, the situation can resolve differently or, or have a worse outcome because there's, you know, a racial element involved or racism or whatever. I'm not saying that's never the case, but in this case, you know, I think what happened to, what happened with this situation was a situation where a customer came in and was behaving in a very aggressive manner and then escalated physically and ended up seriously injuring the shift lead.

[00:31:52] [SPEAKER_02] And, you know, seemingly did not incur any injuries that overtly contributed to their own death. So I kind of feel like when people are trying to make that a thing, it's kind of like, I don't know. I think, I think this outcome would have happened had Ms. Grayson been white, because if she came in and behaved in the same way, I think those employees would have probably reacted the same way.

[00:32:13] [SPEAKER_02] Okay. So, um, you've had the family of Anita Grayson talking to the press, saying things. Um, they told Wayne 15, uh, in an interview with her eldest daughter, Tonda Grayson, or I guess, I don't know what her last name is, but her first name is Tonda. They had, they've had a number of protests at the Tim Hortons. Tonda in that interview said that the Tim Hortons employees were animals.

[00:32:42] [SPEAKER_02] She wants them put in a cage, said, quote, if our police here would just do what we pay our taxes for them to do, which is protect and serve, we wouldn't be here. Y'all have to lock them up. Y'all don't understand. My mother is gone. I want justice for my mom. So obviously in this, any instance where you lose your parents, when you lose a loved one under any kind of violent circumstances, my heart breaks for anyone going through that. And I can imagine it's a very difficult thing to deal with. Right.

[00:33:11] [SPEAKER_02] I think we can understand why there would be anger, why there would be frustration, why you want a certain outcome. But the goal, I mean, of course, I think it's worth noting for the general public, the goal of our justice system is not to give people the opportunity to eke out revenge over sad and bad outcomes. It's to deliver justice based on what actually happened in the incident.

[00:33:35] [SPEAKER_02] If this was a situation where I saw these employees acting overly aggressive with Miss Grayson, maybe she shoved one of them and then they attack her. Right. And they beat her. That would be something where I would say, yeah, there may need to be charges here. Right. Even if she kind of started it, it doesn't give you the right to beat someone into a pulp. You have to deescalate. But that's not at all what I saw here. I think the person who did a crime here was Miss Grayson.

[00:34:05] [SPEAKER_02] I think if she had not died, she should have been charged with assault, assaulting these employees. I don't know why she behaved the way she did. She was an older woman. I don't know. Maybe she was dealing with some health things. Maybe she was having a really bad day and freaked out. I'm trying to be empathetic here. You know what I mean? I mean, I'm not saying that she deserved to die and I'm certainly not saying that this is a reflection of who she always was.

[00:34:34] [SPEAKER_02] People can make bad mistakes when they're under stress or when things escalate. Right. I mean, I don't think we should all be sitting around saying, oh, well, she had it coming. No, I mean, no one does. No one deserves to die. Over a drive-through order dispute. But I also don't. It doesn't sound like these employees killed her just medically from what the autopsy said so far.

[00:34:57] [SPEAKER_02] And watching the video, I feel like she very much was aggressive and escalated the situation to the point where, you know, it was, I think, criminal on her part. So if I don't, I mean, personally, so the Allen County prosecutors, so they have not made a decision.

[00:35:23] [SPEAKER_00] Do you have any indication when a decision will come?

[00:35:25] [SPEAKER_02] They're saying they want to review and look at all the evidence. Now, again, it's been like a month. So, Kevin, I have a question. Is it ethical for a prosecutor to take a case to trial if they're not really sure if it's, you know, strong enough to actually withstand a trial?

[00:35:45] [SPEAKER_00] Absolutely not. Can they wing it? The prosecutor has a high burden and they can only bring a case to trial if they are convinced beyond a reasonable doubt not only is the person guilty of the charges, but they can prove that in court. And if the prosecutor themselves is unsure, that means the prosecutor, if he was on the jury or if she was on the jury, would be obliged to vote not guilty. And you can't bring a charge that you yourself would vote not guilty on.

[00:36:15] [SPEAKER_02] Based on what I've seen so far, and again, I'm more than willing to change my mind. If somebody, if there's more evidence that comes out that shows something else, if, you know, the audio comes out and the employees are all, you know, screaming at her that they're going to kill her and she's like, I just want my coffee. Like, I mean, like there could be things that change the outcome here for me. But based on what I've seen, I don't think there was a crime here committed by these employees.

[00:36:45] [SPEAKER_02] I think they were the victims of her own aggression and I don't think they should be charged. I don't think these young people should have their, you know, to be dragged into court over this at all. And if I was on a jury and I saw this video, I would have quit so fast. It wouldn't even be funny. Like, whenever you have an ambiguous situation, I don't even think this one's ambiguous, though. I think it's pretty unambiguous.

[00:37:11] [SPEAKER_02] And I mean, I don't, I don't think they should charge it, you know, based on what I've seen. And I also think that I, we can have sympathy for a family grieving their loved one. But that does not mean that the system should deliver something that is not justice to please them. You know, that's not how things should work.

[00:37:41] [SPEAKER_02] And you can hold those two feelings at the same time. And I don't think they're contradictory. Actually, I thought one of the leaders in Allen County said it very well. Well, this was, let me look, one of the city council. This was a city council woman, Michelle Chambers. And she said, A 75-year-old woman lost her life.

[00:38:07] [SPEAKER_02] And regardless of where people stand on the details of the investigation, we cannot ignore the grief, pain, and concern this incident has caused throughout Fort Wayne and beyond. My prayers remain with Ms. Grayson's family and all who loved her. I also understand the frustration and emotional response many residents have expressed. The video and the circumstances surrounding the strategy have deeply impacted people, particularly at a time when our communities are already carrying so much hurt, division, and tension. As a public servant, I believe we must allow the investigative process to move forward, fully and fairly. Accountability, transparency, and truth matter.

[00:38:36] [SPEAKER_02] So does public trust. At the same time, I believe this moment should challenge all of us to reflect on how conflict is handled in our community. Situations should never escalate to violence when de-escalation patience and basing human dignity could prevail. We can mourn a life lost while also calling for a thorough process, root, and in facts. Those positions are not contradictory. They are responsible.

[00:38:57] [SPEAKER_02] I'm asking for our community to continue expressing itself peacefully, to extend grace to a grieving family, and to remember that leadership requires both compassion and restraint during difficult moments. Fort Wayne must meet this moment not with division but with humanity. End quote. I thought that was well said. It's sort of saying, like, we can feel sad for these folks. And also, you know, let's go with the facts. If the facts tell us something different, if the facts indicate that, you know, there was something going on here that would push it into a crime, I think we should all be open-minded for that.

[00:39:27] [SPEAKER_02] But I also think we should not be immediately calling for people to be put in a cage. I think that's—and listen, grief makes people say things. I'm not even really criticizing Ms. Grayson's family for feeling very angry or upset about it. One can understand that.

[00:39:46] [SPEAKER_02] But I think we can acknowledge a grieving family without necessarily taking up a cry that I think would lead to more harm being done in this situation, and that should not be the goal. Any questions you have lingering?

[00:40:05] [SPEAKER_00] No, I think you covered this case very thoroughly, very detailed.

[00:40:10] [SPEAKER_02] Well, thank you. And, I mean, people can certainly disagree with me. I'm not saying we know the end all. Maybe there will be more information. So I do want to note that. But we are speaking from having reviewed what was put out there and from knowing a bit about how self-defense works and what counts as self-defense and what doesn't. I think this very much falls into self-defense. So now I think we're going to one of your states.

[00:40:36] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, let's go to Nevada. My source for this—

[00:40:37] [SPEAKER_02] We're going back already?

[00:40:39] [SPEAKER_00] My source for this is the Missoula Current. Now, Anya, correct me if I'm wrong, but would it be fair to describe you as a huge superfan of that Oak Island treasure show?

[00:40:53] [SPEAKER_02] Oh, hell yeah. Curse of Oak Island? Let the big dog eat. That's Marty Lagina.

[00:40:59] [SPEAKER_00] No idea what you're talking about. You need boots on the ground, Marty. Isn't it a show where a bunch of old white men try to find treasure on an island?

[00:41:08] [SPEAKER_02] It's a Bobby Dazzler of a show.

[00:41:10] [SPEAKER_00] I mean, is that basically what it is? Yes.

[00:41:13] [SPEAKER_02] It's amazing. I love it. My mom and I always used to watch it. They're just digging around in the mud. Folks, I just want to tell you something. They're not going to find anything. The real treasure is the friends they made along the way.

[00:41:25] [SPEAKER_00] And you, even at your behest, we went to, we paid, not once, not twice, but three times, we paid to attend a musical, a live musical based on Oak Island.

[00:41:40] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, that's actually true.

[00:41:42] [SPEAKER_00] This is on your behalf. So you are a super fan. You understand the appeal.

[00:41:48] [SPEAKER_02] I wanted it to be more about like the wackiness of the reality TV show because, I mean, they're just such delightful guys. You know what I mean? I love what they're doing. But the musical was more like serious about the island. I'm like, no, lean into the insanity. They're always like, oh, the Templars were here. You know, it's like, no, guys, no, they weren't. But have fun on your reality show. I mean, I love you. Yeah, love them.

[00:42:12] [SPEAKER_00] So one way you can tell when a show is successful is if it has like imitators. So Anya, you, Miss Oak Island super fan, are you familiar with a show about Blind Frog Ranch?

[00:42:27] [SPEAKER_02] No, but the mystery at Blind Frog Ranch sounds like a Hardy Boys book that they canceled or something.

[00:42:36] [SPEAKER_00] Well, apparently it's a couple of guys, father and son, who suspect there's like treasure hidden at this ranch, the Blind Frog Ranch, and they're going to hunt for it.

[00:42:48] [SPEAKER_02] There's treasure everywhere for those with eyes to see.

[00:42:50] [SPEAKER_00] And it ran like five seasons, and it's currently in its sixth season. But the father on the show is a guy named Dwayne Olinger. He passed away earlier this month. He was very sick. And the son on the show, Chad Olinger. I mean, I'm not going to tell you any surprises if you are a devoted follower of Blind Frog Ranch.

[00:43:20] [SPEAKER_00] Because apparently in season six, the reins were turned over to a new treasure hunter. And Chad has been silently edited out of the new season. And as a reality fan, you might want to know what's going on. Well, he had some legal problems on you.

[00:43:40] [SPEAKER_02] Oh, no.

[00:43:42] [SPEAKER_00] What did he do? He had a variety of legal problems. He ends up in jail. He ends up in a cell with a guy. And he kills him.

[00:43:54] [SPEAKER_02] Oh, my goodness.

[00:43:57] [SPEAKER_00] And the guy he kills is a guy named Christopher Kelly. And Mr. Olinger is being, has recently been found to be incompetent to stand trial.

[00:44:11] [SPEAKER_02] Oh, wow.

[00:44:13] [SPEAKER_00] Anya, why do we need a person to be competent to stand trial?

[00:44:18] [SPEAKER_02] So you can assist with your own defense.

[00:44:21] [SPEAKER_00] Why is that important?

[00:44:23] [SPEAKER_02] Because we, our system is designed to give defendants or should be designed to give defendants the best shot of pushing back against the state's charges because the state wields a massive amount of power and being able to take away our liberty. Or in certain cases, our lives. We want to give defendants a fair shake. And they don't get a fair shake if they are having difficulty even understanding what's going on in the trial and can't help their defense.

[00:44:51] [SPEAKER_02] Attorneys fashion a good defense.

[00:44:54] [SPEAKER_00] So, yeah, he's been found incompetent. You might want to say, well, you know, I watched him on the show. He seemed great then. One thing about him that has made people say, well, maybe he's not operating at peak capacity is he says that he has a supernatural ability to, like, be able to read a person and know information about them that other people might not know.

[00:45:24] [SPEAKER_00] And apparently that's what led to this crime was apparently his supernatural ability to read information convinced him that this man he killed was guilty of a horrible offense, including an offense he wasn't even charged with. And so he's got to die.

[00:45:43] [SPEAKER_02] Oh, that's horrible. I feel so – it's like it's very upsetting because it's like, you know, whatever landed Mr. Kelly in jail, he didn't deserve to die over it. And just you happen to be put in a cell with an inmate or, you know, in an area. I don't know if they were sharing a cell or if it was like, you know, like a general area.

[00:46:03] [SPEAKER_02] But, you know, you just happen to get put in with a person who's either just violent or violent and mentally ill and you die for it. I mean that – there should be better safeguards in place to prevent that from happening, first of all. But that's very – I mean especially if he died of blunt force injuries, he obviously beat the guy. It's like why was there no intervention?

[00:46:25] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. And Mr. Olinger also claims to be having memory loss so he can't remember recent events. So, yeah, he's not in a position currently to help his counsel. He was examined by, I believe, three doctors. One said, yeah, he's competent. Go ahead. And the other two said, no, he's not.

[00:46:50] [SPEAKER_00] So, things are on hold while he receives treatment and he at some point will go before the judge again and this competency issue will be revisited. Because once you declare a person either competent or incompetent, that's not something that's written in stone. That's something that can be revisited because people change and their diagnoses change.

[00:47:16] [SPEAKER_02] I want to ask you something because I see a lot of people get really mad about this on the internet. And I understand why. I'm not criticizing anybody. But I also think people have a misunderstanding. I see people react to news articles about like this infamous guy who's accused of killing this person is declared incompetent to stand trial. And in the comments, people are like, oh, it's soft on crime. They're letting the criminals do everything. Can you explain why that's not the case when we're talking about competency around trial?

[00:47:45] [SPEAKER_02] Does being declared incompetent to stand trial? If I steal – let me do my silly example. If I steal a bunch of cereal and then I'm incompetent to stand trial, like do I just get to be like checkmate judge and then walk out?

[00:48:00] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, it's not like if you're found incompetent, you win the lottery and the judge will come out and pat you on the back and send you on your way. You're still going to be held and you will still face those charges if and when you are found competent. It's not a get-out-of-jail-free card by any stretch of the imagination.

[00:48:21] [SPEAKER_02] So when I get declared incompetent for my thing, I shouldn't be yelling at the prosecution and be like, ha-ha-ha, gloating. Well, because, you know, it's not – that's not a permanent thing. Okay.

[00:48:32] [SPEAKER_00] That is the case.

[00:48:33] [SPEAKER_02] I'll note that for the next hearing. But in terms of – so, yeah, I just – I think people see it as, oh, someone's getting off easy. It's not. I mean it's just – they're not like let out. I mean in my understanding, they shouldn't be in most cases. It's certainly not in a case where someone killed somebody or is accused of having killed somebody. So it's just more about like are you ready for trial? And is it the same thing as being not guilty by reason of insanity?

[00:49:03] [SPEAKER_00] No, because not guilty by reason of insanity is like a verdict. It's a final determination. And when you're incompetent to stand trial, you're not even able to reach a final determination.

[00:49:15] [SPEAKER_02] Can you be incompetent to stand trial at some point and have some kind of mental illness or mental issue that causes that but still not guilty by reason of insanity?

[00:49:26] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. When you talk about not guilty by reason of insanity, they're talking about your state of mind at the time you committed the crime or allegedly committed the crime. And whether you're competent to stand trial, that's focusing on your current mental state as you are facing trial. And as we said, a person's mental condition can change.

[00:49:48] [SPEAKER_02] I feel like people conflate the two and they think, oh, he's getting away with it. And it's understandable because it's, you know, it's a lot of legal jargon. It's a lot of stuff. But I do think it's important to understand. I think it's also important to understand why we want people to be competent to stand trial. You don't want to have a defendant standing there who's in the middle of some kind of, I don't know, schizophrenic or schizoaffective session who's not even able to defend themselves. That is very wrong, obviously.

[00:50:19] [SPEAKER_02] And I think we should – there's things that you can do that are soft on crime or are kind of not taking it seriously. And I really don't think this is one of them. I think people should –

[00:50:29] [SPEAKER_00] So have you seen this blind frog show?

[00:50:32] [SPEAKER_02] I've never seen it.

[00:50:33] [SPEAKER_00] I've never even heard of it. It sounds like your cup of tea. I'm going to read from the article, quote, Does that sound like your show?

[00:51:00] [SPEAKER_02] It does sound like a ripoff of the Curse of Oak Island. But I'm going to say the Curse of Oak Island –

[00:51:06] [SPEAKER_00] On that show, does the land itself seem to stymie them?

[00:51:10] [SPEAKER_02] Yes. Yes, it does. But it's just mostly because the thing that really stymies them is that there's just no treasure and it's all made up.

[00:51:16] [SPEAKER_00] So this one has, again, from this article, it has odd trespassers, hidden government operations.

[00:51:24] [SPEAKER_02] Oh, my gosh.

[00:51:25] [SPEAKER_00] Revelation of radioactivity, underwater tunnels. I think you told me you'd like to call underwater tunnels chunnels. And also a strange tablet inside a cave. So like maybe an old primitive nook or iPad.

[00:51:43] [SPEAKER_02] Oh, my gosh. I love – I mean, well, I mean, in this case, it sounds like maybe they were, you know, didn't vet these folks enough. I mean, it's –

[00:51:52] [SPEAKER_00] So are you – are you, Anya, like the second we finish recording, are you going to rush to a television and begin the process of binging Blind Frog Ranch?

[00:52:03] [SPEAKER_02] No, honestly, especially not with this tragic news of one of the stars killing somebody. I will say I remember one of my fond memories is after we would watch Curse of Oak Island, I'd get on Reddit. And there was this – I don't even know if it still exists. I haven't watched the show in a long time. But these people – it was like the drunk island. They'd like – people would do like drinking games.

[00:52:25] [SPEAKER_02] Like take a shot every time they, you know, do an infographic of how the money pit is structured or take a shot every time they mention like, you know. It was just – it was a very fun – it was a very fun show. It had a fun community around it. I feel like people didn't really take it that seriously, but it was just more of fun vibes. And every week they'd bring in some weirdo and they'd be like, ah, so the stars align with these rocks on Oak Island. But my favorite character – I forget what his name was. But there was one dude who was like an archaeologist and they – like he'd have to kind of approve of things.

[00:52:55] [SPEAKER_02] And you just felt like the whole time he was probably sitting there like, oh my gosh, what are we doing? They'd be like, is it possible that the Templars with help from, you know, aliens dug a tunnel to hide the treasure deeper in the island? And he'd be kind of like, ah. Yeah.

[00:53:12] [SPEAKER_00] There's a blind frog Reddit.

[00:53:15] [SPEAKER_02] Oh, man. Well, again, doesn't this kind of like hurt the vibe of the show if somebody's kind of –

[00:53:21] [SPEAKER_00] Well, the fact that the father got sick and died and now they brought in new people and they're like carefully edited – Again, I've not seen a frame of this show but I visited this Reddit and they're saying, yeah, it looks like they've edited out the song.

[00:53:35] [SPEAKER_02] Well, to me, I kind of – you know, I feel like the Oak Island folks seem like nice people and, you know, I certainly don't agree with a lot of their historical analysis. But we're all having a good time, you know?

[00:53:47] [SPEAKER_00] Weren't you also a huge fan of something called the Try Guys and like one of those guys got involved in a scandal and then he was like silently edited out of some videos?

[00:53:58] [SPEAKER_02] Wow, you're outing my like my millennial interest. Yeah, I love the Try Guys for years when I was – like I feel like that was when I was like, I don't know, like teens and 20s and stuff and like they were huge at that time. And then like later on I was like, oh my gosh, like there was a huge scandal with them. But yeah, but I mean nobody killed anybody obviously in that situation either.

[00:54:20] [SPEAKER_00] Which of us do you think is most likely to be crudely edited out of episodes of Murder Sheet?

[00:54:25] [SPEAKER_02] Do you even have to ask yourself that?

[00:54:27] [SPEAKER_00] You.

[00:54:29] [SPEAKER_02] Oh, no. With your weird riffs, your strange saying.

[00:54:35] [SPEAKER_00] You're going out there, you're stealing cereal and stuff.

[00:54:38] [SPEAKER_02] According to you.

[00:54:40] [SPEAKER_00] You're doing your Yosemite Sam stuff. I think there's going to be a scandal and I, with my crude editing abilities, am going to try to like edit you out and do a very bad job of it.

[00:54:51] [SPEAKER_02] So you're going to like have yourself talking to yourself?

[00:54:54] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, it's not going to work. I want to try.

[00:54:56] [SPEAKER_02] It's going to be pathetic.

[00:54:58] [SPEAKER_00] I'm bringing like Ted McGinley. Is that his name? He co-hosts the show with me. Who? Isn't that the guy they bring in to replace people on TV shows?

[00:55:09] [SPEAKER_02] I don't know.

[00:55:10] [SPEAKER_00] He replaced Ron Howard on Happy Days.

[00:55:13] [SPEAKER_02] Okay. Well, it's a little before my time.

[00:55:15] [SPEAKER_00] And then wasn't he like on the last season of Love Boat? Yeah, forget that. I would bring him in to try to replace you after the scandal and it wouldn't work.

[00:55:25] [SPEAKER_02] Wow, thanks. You're going to try to force me off the murder sheet. Anya fans, rise up. No, I'm just kidding.

[00:55:31] [SPEAKER_00] With your scandalous misbehavior.

[00:55:33] [SPEAKER_02] No, I've not done anything wrong and I didn't steal any cereal.

[00:55:36] [SPEAKER_00] This is all hypocritical.

[00:55:38] [SPEAKER_02] No convictions for cereal theft. You'll see that.

[00:55:41] [SPEAKER_00] Who would you bring in to replace me?

[00:55:44] [SPEAKER_02] Nobody.

[00:55:46] [SPEAKER_00] So it would just become a monologue show?

[00:55:47] [SPEAKER_02] I would just wail and gnash my teeth. Isn't that what I'm already doing?

[00:55:53] [SPEAKER_00] It would be pretty much the same.

[00:55:56] [SPEAKER_02] That's all you get. Wow. Well, that's an interesting case. Very sad for Mr. Kelly and his family. And again, I feel like any death in a jail is a failure on the part of that jail. And I feel like they should be doing more to protect inmates. You're not going to jail to be killed. You're going to jail to be held until trial.

[00:56:16] [SPEAKER_00] Next case is from, what do they call Colorado? It's not the Sunshine State. Isn't it the Mile High State? That sounds right. Sounds dirty.

[00:56:28] [SPEAKER_02] Oh my gosh. Can you not? And also, so you picked like the two crime cons we've gone to. You picked Colorado and Nevada.

[00:56:35] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, because this is my special crime con salute episode.

[00:56:39] [SPEAKER_02] The murder sheet salutes crime con. And Indiana was the first crime con. Yeah. I'm getting in on the action. Now, there's never been a crime con in Haiti. So we're out of luck there.

[00:56:50] [SPEAKER_00] So you spoiled the theme. I did. Maybe there'll be a crime con in Haiti someday. Maybe that's the crime con of the future. Maybe. Who knows? Crime con is yet to come.

[00:57:00] [SPEAKER_02] Crime con Port-au-Prince. All right. Why don't you go ahead?

[00:57:03] [SPEAKER_00] Do they have like a conference center there?

[00:57:05] [SPEAKER_02] I don't know.

[00:57:07] [SPEAKER_00] You should look into it.

[00:57:08] [SPEAKER_02] I'm not going to. But proceed.

[00:57:10] [SPEAKER_00] This is from the Denver Post. I always find one thing interesting about the law is it's about trying to figure out what we owe each other. What duties do we owe to one another in this life and in this world? And obviously, you have a duty not to shoot someone for no reason or things like that. So a lot of the things we talk about are things like murder.

[00:57:38] [SPEAKER_00] But then sometimes it gets to a point where sometimes people might have debates. What is owed to this person in this situation? Did this person get what they were due or did like a business or a person fail them? And with that in mind, I want to talk about this case in Colorado that caught my eye.

[00:58:04] [SPEAKER_00] And this is the case of Gretchen Ryan, a 55-year-old woman with a 16-year-old daughter named Grace. Grace died on March 9th, not too long ago, of complications caused by pretty severe alcohol intake. How severe?

[00:58:30] [SPEAKER_00] Well, police found 173 empty bottles of alcohol in her bedroom. And Grace's mother, Gretchen, it was not unusual for her to help arrange for alcohol to be delivered to the house so her daughter could ingest it.

[00:58:57] [SPEAKER_00] Moreover, I guess some kind of a bonding activity, mother and daughter would frequently not only drink alcohol together, but they would use marijuana together. They would have lots of talks, lots of communications about alcohol. So the mother was aware, certainly, that her daughter was drinking excessively, which, of course, her daughter was under the legal age of drinking.

[00:59:26] [SPEAKER_00] And she was also facilitating it by arranging the delivery of alcohol to the home. But it gets worse. Okay. Because in the time leading up to her death, Grace stops going to school. And she also starts describing some medical issues to her mother that she, the daughter, is experiencing.

[00:59:52] [SPEAKER_00] These include things like having trouble eating, vomiting, blood. Oh, my gosh. Having problem walking and also having to use diapers.

[01:00:06] [SPEAKER_01] Oh, my gosh.

[01:00:07] [SPEAKER_00] Because of issues related to drinking all of this alcohol. In fact, Grace told her mother that she wanted help. I think I'm going to die, basically, is the subtext here. And I want help. And there's no indication that her mother sought help for her daughter. Grace sent a message to her mother on her iPad on the night before she died.

[01:00:36] [SPEAKER_00] That message went unanswered. And, you know, the next day, 911 is called and police find her dead near her iPad. So, I guess, oh, and again, I'll say her cause of death was described as aspiration pneumonia related to chronic alcohol use. She, the mother has been charged with second degree murder.

[01:01:06] [SPEAKER_00] So, I guess my question to you, Anya, would you describe what the mother did there as murder?

[01:01:13] [SPEAKER_02] Oh, man. I guess it depends on what your definition of murder is. To me, like, I feel like what you just, I'd have to think about it. I'd have to also look at whatever the definition of murder is under Colorado law and what, like, degree.

[01:01:39] [SPEAKER_02] To me, like, because also there's, like, there's intent to have an outcome. And then there's also, like, negligence that could obviously lead to an outcome. Right? But, I mean, it's, I think there's a conversation to be had. I don't feel, like, legally knowledgeable enough to be like, yes, that's definitely murder. But, I mean, good Lord, is it bad parenting.

[01:02:00] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah.

[01:02:00] [SPEAKER_02] And it's so dangerous. So, I mean, I'm definitely very disgusted by it. But if someone, I mean, in your view, having, like, looked at this, do you think it is murder?

[01:02:12] [SPEAKER_00] I think the fact that the mother had knowledge that her daughter was slowly destroying herself and that her, the mother was basically giving her the means to do so. And then standing back and letting it happen and not taking steps to offer help even when asked. But there's also signs that the mother took steps to hide her daughter's alcohol use from her husband and from others. I think you can make a strong case for it.

[01:02:42] [SPEAKER_02] I'm not sure, quite sure if it raises to murder for me. If there was not, I mean, if there's not really, like, an intent there to kill her. But, I mean, certainly for some, I mean, it's something. I mean, like, there's lesser charges that I think it definitely fits. It would just depend on, like, the language and whether you could prove all the elements of it. If you can prove all the elements of murder, then, you know, there you go. To me, it's like, I mean, it's like what?

[01:03:09] [SPEAKER_02] I mean, there's certain things where, like, you hear about cases where, oh, these parents supplied the teens at the house with alcohol for a party. And you're like, that's, you know, that can be very unsafe in my view. But, like, you kind of at least understand the logic. This is like, what? This poor girl. I mean, it sounds like she was just dying a slow death and very sad.

[01:03:34] [SPEAKER_02] It sounds like the mother has also some pretty significant drinking problems, too. Is that kind of the implication you're getting?

[01:03:42] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah.

[01:03:43] [SPEAKER_02] And, you know, I mean, like, you definitely hear about that could be inherited.

[01:03:46] [SPEAKER_00] I should say the mother has no prior criminal history.

[01:03:50] [SPEAKER_02] Right. To me, a 16-year-old especially. I mean, that's so easy.

[01:03:53] [SPEAKER_00] Although she was charged with driving under the influence back in 1993.

[01:03:57] [SPEAKER_02] Oh. Well, that's not really terribly surprising given what happened here. I don't know. I think I'd have to – so it's second-degree murder.

[01:04:11] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[01:04:11] [SPEAKER_02] Okay. Well, it's possible. I mean, I feel like prosecutors, listen, prosecutors are going to be looking at, like, what can we prove? And what – can we prove the elements of this? So, I mean, I'm assuming they, you know, if they did their due diligence and they think it's murder, then I think that should be taken seriously. What's your view? I mean –

[01:04:29] [SPEAKER_00] Well, let me ask you this. Yes.

[01:04:40] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, apparently not much because, I mean, that's what happened. And it just sounds like such an unhealthy relationship. I mean, like, this girl's life was falling apart. It wasn't subtle. It wasn't like she was doing okay and then one day, boom, she's dead. I mean, it just sounds like a pretty overt decline. The thing about alcoholism is that, you know, people really go into denial and, you know, nothing's wrong. Everything's fine. I've been there.

[01:05:10] [SPEAKER_02] So, speaking with some experience here. Not that I would have dragged a 16-year-old into that, let alone, you know, my own child. But, you know, I think people just – you don't want to shake the boat at all. So, it's like you just dig your head in the sand. But to do that to a child like that is just horrible. It's really, really sad and depressing.

[01:05:36] [SPEAKER_00] So, we're going to Haiti now.

[01:05:37] [SPEAKER_02] Yes, we're going to Haiti. So, Haiti, you know, I think this is our first case we've done about Haiti. This is because one of our lovely listeners, actually a lovely lady we met at CrimeCon, requested that we do this case. It's one of those cases. It's a bit older. And I was able to dig up some documents on Pacer and kind of hopefully give you guys an update because it really hasn't been covered in the mainstream press since 2025 when it did get a lot of interest. It's been a lot of interest in November of 2025.

[01:06:05] [SPEAKER_02] So, I've always found personally the history of Haiti really fascinating. It's one of those things that's kind of – it's very sad to read about because I think a lot of people don't realize this. And people often associate Haiti with, you know, it's a lot of crime, very poor country, all of these kind of negative associations with good reason to be clear.

[01:06:28] [SPEAKER_02] But it's got a really fascinating culture at the same time and I think one thing that's not acknowledged a lot is the United States' role in what happened with Haiti. The thing you have to understand is that Haiti came about as the result of a successful slave rebellion and this was coinciding with the United States.

[01:06:51] [SPEAKER_02] One thing we know about the United States is that, you know, it was a country that – where slavery was legal for many years. Over time, you know, northern states started abolishing it but it remained in the south until, you know, the Civil War, you know, which ended in 1865.

[01:07:11] [SPEAKER_02] So, when you had Americans looking to Haiti when it achieved its independence from France, they did not see that as another country like us who – oh, you rebelled against the motherland and you're taking your fate into your own hands. We saw it. The Americans saw it as a very threatening thing because they saw it as a successful slave rebellion.

[01:07:34] [SPEAKER_02] And one thing, if you look at American history, especially in the southern United States, a driving political force that's kind of a bit of an undercurrent and sometimes not at all an undercurrent, sometimes it's very overt, has been fear over possible slave insurrections. Basically, we've been treating these slaves so badly for so long that, like, if they get the chance, we're in trouble.

[01:08:03] [SPEAKER_02] And you see that in, you know, there's been slave insurrections in the United States as well and you see that in the fears and the reaction to those. We didn't even recognize – so anyways, that is to say there is a part of what happened with Haiti where you see the United States essentially making efforts to strangle its development over time because of that political bias.

[01:08:29] [SPEAKER_02] And because of that bias, you know, racism and bias against, you know, Haiti's former slave population and whatnot. So I'm not saying that the United States is solely the reason why Haiti continues to struggle to this day. It's obviously a very nuanced issue. There's plenty of blame to go around, I'm sure. But I do think that history is important to note when we talk about Haiti. One of my favorite authors – so one of my two favorite authors is Graham Greene, a terrific author.

[01:08:59] [SPEAKER_02] He wrote a book about Haiti that I think you enjoyed too, right, Kevin, The Comedians?

[01:09:03] [SPEAKER_01] Yes.

[01:09:03] [SPEAKER_02] Yes. Amazing book. It's about a hotel owner in Port-au-Prince who's working there under the dictatorship of Francois Duvalier, a.k.a. Papa Doc. And this book pissed off Duvalier. I found this quote about it, Kevin. You might be smart. So he – this guy talks like a YouTuber kind of except maybe more eloquent.

[01:09:28] [SPEAKER_02] He said that Greene was, quote, a liar, a cretin, a stool pigeon, unbalanced, sadistic, perverted, a perfect ignoramus, lying to his heart's content, the shame of proud and noble England, a spy, a drug addict, a torturer. Apparently Greene said the last epithet is always a little puzzled. This guy was a brutal dictator, Duvalier. He tortured a lot of people. He disappeared a lot of people. Just very, very violent regime.

[01:09:56] [SPEAKER_02] But anyways, the book touches upon – the comedians touches upon people fighting for freedom in Haiti and kind of people, you know, continued political upheaval and attempts to better things and whatnot and all the kind of chaos of Haiti at the time. And this just – I mean just going – reading through some of these legal documents just kind of reminded me of it a little bit but unfortunately in a significantly darker manner.

[01:10:22] [SPEAKER_02] Instead of people, you know, fighting to improve Haiti, it's two outsiders, two Americans who are alleged to have – at the very least fantasized about doing something really horrible to Haitians. So let's start out with the United States District Court for the Eastern District of Texas.

[01:10:43] [SPEAKER_02] This is a criminal complaint and this is – the two defendants in this case are Gavin Rivers Weisenberg and Tanner Christopher Thomas from Texas. They're charged with sexual exploitation of children and conspiracy to sexually exploit children. This complaint uses the terms child pornography, which I believe is outdated.

[01:11:11] [SPEAKER_02] We refer to them on this show as child sexual abuse material. And these were alleged to have happened in August or September 2024 in the county of Collin County, Texas in Eastern District of Texas. So this is a federal case. So that was signed then and essentially this kind of got some attention. But again, I'll explain what they're accused of doing. I'll read the indictment in part.

[01:11:41] [SPEAKER_02] And you're probably wondering how does a CSAM case have anything to do with Haiti? Well, unfortunately, it does. So this is what the general allegations against these two are. This case went to grand jury. That is how they were indicted. Quote, defendants Gavin Rivers Weisenberg and Tanner Christopher Thomas were residents of the Eastern District of Texas beginning in August 2024 and continuing through July 2025.

[01:12:08] [SPEAKER_02] Gavin Rivers Weisenberg and Tanner Christopher Thomas and other co-conspirators developed a plan to recruit and lead an unlawful expeditionary force to travel by sailboat to the Republic of Haiti, specifically Gnav Island. Murder all the men on the island. Assume control of the island by force and carry out their rape fantasies by turning the remaining women and children into sex slaves. OK.

[01:12:38] [SPEAKER_02] So first of all. Like, that's disgusting. What are you what's your reaction?

[01:12:44] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, that is disgusting.

[01:12:46] [SPEAKER_02] Let's go into more. Quote, the Republic of Haiti is a sovereign nation. Gnav Island is an island located off Haiti's coast to the west northwest of Port-au-Prince. Gnav Island is a territory of the Republic of Haiti and has a population of approximately 87,000 residents. Gnav Island is a territory of the country. So this is what they say about this, what the federal prosecutors say about the object of the conspiracy.

[01:13:10] [SPEAKER_02] Quote, the object of the conspiracy was to unlawfully carry out a coup d'etat on the island of Gnav in the Republic of Haiti. The co-conspirators conducted research, reconnaissance, recruiting, planning and sought training to effectuate their plan. It was the goal of conspiracy to take military control of the island of Gnav by murdering all the men on the island and capturing all the women. Upon capture, the co-conspirators intended to turn the women and children of Gnav into their sex slaves. The co-conspirators planned to purchase a sailboat to travel from the United States to Gnav for the attack.

[01:13:39] [SPEAKER_02] The co-conspirators planned to recruit and hire members of the District of Columbia homeless population to be part of their unlawful expeditionary force. It was also an object of the conspiracy to acquire and use weapons during their armed attack on Gnav. The co-conspirators researched weapons and ammunition and planned purchases of military-type rifles to use in the attack.

[01:14:01] [SPEAKER_02] Further, an object of the conspiracy was to unlawfully and knowingly combine, conspire, confederate, and agree to commit any offense against the United States by, in the United States, knowingly beginning, providing, and preparing a means for an armed attack to be carried on from the United States against the territory and dominion of a foreign state, namely the Republic of Haiti. End quote.

[01:14:28] [SPEAKER_02] So, in terms of the conspiracy, they want to overthrow the Republic of Haiti's presence in Gnav, kill all the men on the island, murder, kidnap, and rape the women and children, recruit others to do this. I mean, by, I guess, recruiting homeless people in D.C., which, like, I would feel like most homeless people in D.C. would be like, get lost. And then you have, they want to get a sailboat.

[01:14:56] [SPEAKER_02] They want to, they're actually, one person was trying to obtain training to maneuver the sailboat for this purpose. You have, they're trying to get explosives, ammunition, arms. Apparently, quote, the co-conspirators planned for one member of the conspiracy to enlist in the United States military for the purpose of obtaining military training useful in carrying out their armed coup attack.

[01:15:22] [SPEAKER_02] Quote, the plan was for one of the members of the conspiracy to enroll in first responder training, specifically firefighter school, for the purpose of learning the command and control protocols that would be useful in carrying out their armed coup attempt, armed coup attack. Communicating over social media platforms and meeting with each other in person to plan the armed coup attack. And in terms of doing this, you had Weisenberg and Thomas between July 2024 and May 2025.

[01:15:50] [SPEAKER_02] They were actually training and learning Haitian Creole language in order to do this. On January 7, 2025, Thomas enlisted in the United States Air Force in order to do this. On February 8, 2025, Thomas messaged on social media Weisenberg, explaining, yeah, I enlisted because of this.

[01:16:14] [SPEAKER_02] On August 5, 2024, Gavin Rivers Weisenberg enrolled in the North Texas Fire Academy in Rockwall, Texas, in order to do the command and control protocols. But by February 8, 2025, he had flunked and was dismissed from the school.

[01:16:31] [SPEAKER_02] On February 20, 2025, Weisenberg bought plane tickets and went to Thailand to enroll in a sailing school to figure out how to get the boat, you know, there to Haiti. But it was too expensive. So he didn't actually sign up. And they also were going around trying to recruit others from August 2024 to May 2025.

[01:16:58] [SPEAKER_02] On March 14, 2025, Thomas is in Air Force basic training. He went from his initial statement assignment at the Ramstein Air Base in Germany to Andrews Air Base in Maryland in order to, you know, make sure he's in America so they can do this coup attack. And he wanted to be near the District of Columbia to go to homeless people in the area and recruit them for this.

[01:17:24] [SPEAKER_02] So count one, they're charged now with conspiracy to kidnap or kill persons in a foreign country. And count two, sexual exploitation of children. Aiding and abetting.

[01:17:43] [SPEAKER_02] And they said that this count says that on or about August 31, 2024, within the Eastern District of Texas, the defendants did employ, use, persuade, induce, entice, and coerce a minor to engage in sexually explicit conduct for the purpose of producing any visual depiction of such conduct. And aided and abetting each other to do the same, knowing and having reason to know that such visual depiction would be transported and transmitted using any means and facility of interstate and foreign commerce.

[01:18:14] [SPEAKER_02] And yeah, so the minor victim is known as Minor Victim One. That minor is known to the grand jury and kind of persuaded them to engage in sexually explicit conduct and made a video that they were sent. So, yeah, this is horrible, right? Yeah. It's disgusting. Two. Well, I mean, they're not convicted, so that's fair.

[01:18:43] [SPEAKER_02] But what they're accused of having planned is disgusting. It's two child sexual abusers who are accused of doing that, but also then trying to inflict that on the Haitian population on this island. So that's all very scary. So you might be wondering, OK, well, what's happened with this? Well, I got on Pacer.

[01:19:07] [SPEAKER_02] And they said, essentially, in this case, and this was from December 8th, 2025, from the United States, there was a motion for an order designating case complex. And this was unopposed. So the defendants did not oppose the motion. This is what it said.

[01:19:28] [SPEAKER_02] Quote, due to the significant amount of time needed for discovery in this case, it would be unreasonable to expect adequate preparation for pretrial and trial proceedings within the normal time limits under the Speedy Trial Act. And so it would deny counsel for the government and counsel for the defendant the reasonable time necessary for effective preparation, even with the exercise of due diligence.

[01:19:52] [SPEAKER_02] The court further finds the ends of justice served by granting the request for continuance outweigh the best interests of the public and defendant for a speedy trial. The court finds that this motion has merit and should be granted. So the court is now going to be held at the Paul Brown United States Courthouse in Sherman, Texas on Monday, January 25th, 2027, starting at 10 a.m. So it's been pushed all the way back then.

[01:20:20] [SPEAKER_02] And the goal would be, you know, start the trial then and have that go through. I think I think jury selection they want to start earlier, but have it go through January to maybe, you know, give them more time in order to do this. And this is from United States District Judge Amos L. Mazant. And so that's where it stands. That's why you haven't heard anything about it lately, because it has not gone to trial yet. And that's not because it's stalling out.

[01:20:50] [SPEAKER_02] It's simply because they need more time. And a prudent judge is going to give everyone time for something like this. I will say to get the other side and is always important to include both sides. Oh, and as far as everything else, the FBI, the Federal Bureau of Investigation was involved with this. The United States Air Force Office of Special Investigations. The Salina Police Department in Texas. Assistant U.S. Attorney Ryan Locker was previously the one listed as doing the prosecution.

[01:21:21] [SPEAKER_02] But. Weisenberg has an attorney named David Finn, and he's out of Dallas. And he said his client plans to. This is back when it initially happened. So he's already done this. His client plan to enter and not guilty plea said basically, quote, hold your horses to the media. Don't draw any conclusions. And he said it was an inaccurate and misleading press release. What that they initially put out there.

[01:21:49] [SPEAKER_02] He said, quote, while there is some limited factual basis to the government's press release, I'm reminded that something can be somewhat accurate yet wildly misleading at the same time. And he said he's not going to try this in the press. And I will give Mr. Finn credit. He has not tried this in the press because you've not heard a lot about this. So good for him. First of all, I don't like it when anyone tries anybody in the press. And this really hasn't been out there that much. So I guess that's good. But I guess we'll see if the facts bear out. Come.

[01:22:20] [SPEAKER_02] January 2027. I think there's a there's possibilities that, you know, you could you could always have a situation where something is overblown and people didn't really commit the crimes they're accused of. Or maybe they were enticed to do so. Or maybe it was a fantasy that spun out of control. But even so, what a disgusting fantasy. But you also have situations where people do plan really outlandish and wild stuff. So I think we just be open minded and see what the evidence shows.

[01:22:49] [SPEAKER_00] Sounds good. We'll keep an eye on it.

[01:22:50] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah. So anything else we wanted to say today?

[01:22:54] [SPEAKER_00] You wanted to talk about getting lost at Las Vegas.

[01:22:59] [SPEAKER_02] I don't know if I wanted to talk about it. We did get lost a lot. I mean, you and I couldn't find a dang thing. I felt like we were constantly and we were not alone in this. It wasn't just us. I think we would see people. There might be listeners of ours who are still at CrimeCon for all we know. We might need to go find them. They might be still wandering the halls of Caesars Palace. It was like – everyone was – and then like people were like, I don't think murder sheets here because they're not where they're supposed to be sitting. I think the map was wrong.

[01:23:27] [SPEAKER_02] So I think a lot of people kind of were surprised to see us there. They're like, wait, how did you get over here? But yeah, it was still a fun time. Anything else you want to say? You're very – you're quiet and contemplative over there.

[01:23:40] [SPEAKER_00] No, I think that that about does it.

[01:23:43] [SPEAKER_02] All right. Well, thank you all so much for listening and I hope you have a great weekend.

[01:23:47] [SPEAKER_00] Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us at murdersheet at gmail dot com. If you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

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[01:24:31] [SPEAKER_00] Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for The Murder Sheet and who you can find on the web at kevintg.com.

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