The Cheat Sheet: Exes and Extradition

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[00:01:34] of their award-winning gummies. Content warning. This episode contains discussion of rape and murder, including the rape and murder of a child. Today on the Murder Sheet, we are going to be doing two Maryland cases, one that ended up in Oklahoma recently, and that one represents a big development

[00:01:54] in a case we've covered on the show in the past. We're also taking on a case from Houston, Texas, as well as another case in Kentucky. My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist. And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney. And this is the Murder Sheet.

[00:02:10] We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases. We're the Murder Sheet. And this is the Cheat Sheet, Exes and Extradition.

[00:03:07] I want to start with a cold case where there was recently an arrest, and my source for this was CBS News. And before I give you the details of it, this case has nothing to do with Delphi.

[00:03:23] But it reminds me of a quote I read, I believe, from Kelsey in some newspaper or magazine article over the years. KELSEY TAYLOR Kelsey German, the sister of Liberty German, one of the victims. KEVIN GREENLEE Yes. Where she said something to the effect that it's

[00:03:40] very difficult for the case to be unresolved because as long as it's unresolved, when she's in a crowd or walking around town or what have you, she has to look around and wonder if one

[00:03:51] of the people in that crowd could be the person who took the life of her loved one. That's an awful thing to have to consider. And you will understand in a moment why this case

[00:04:07] reminded me of that. This is a case of the murder of a woman named Leslie Prier that took place all the way back in 2001. Ms. Prier lived in suburban Washington, D.C. back in May of 2001. She doesn't

[00:04:30] show up for work. One of her co-workers, one of her associates contacts police. They were worried to go check or actually, I guess the co-worker herself went to check and found blood in the

[00:04:41] foyer of this house and then called police. And this woman was found deceased. She'd been murdered. And the case went cold. And then just within the last week or so, thanks to some DNA evidence,

[00:04:58] there was an arrest made in the case. And the man arrested is Eugene Theodore Gilgore, a 44-year-old man. And what is horrifying to me about this is that it turns out that he not only lived in the

[00:05:13] neighborhood, but that he was an ex-boyfriend of the victim's daughter. So that is the horror story where you lose someone close to you through violence. You don't know who did it. And it

[00:05:28] turns out to not only be someone you never suspected, it turns out to be someone you knew. Yeah. It's like you introduce that person into the life of your loved one who was then murdered.

[00:05:39] The guilt about that, even though obviously it's not anyone's fault. It's the person who did the killing. But- She said she ran into him. The daughter said she ran into this guy a year or so ago at a restaurant. He just acted completely normal.

[00:05:52] Well, it also goes to show you I hate it when people do this thing. And I understand it because I've been there. But there's this kind of thought that a murderer should be walking around looking

[00:06:04] really shifty-eyed at everybody or bursting into tears every time they see anything that reminds them of the case. But some people are not like that. Some people can just either cope with it and not give any indication that anything is wrong, or they just don't care.

[00:06:20] Yeah. It's comforting to think that there are some acts so horrible that once a person convinced them they are changed forevermore, that they are marked, and that they will carry that mark with them forever. Mark a cane.

[00:06:34] I was trying to avoid saying that. But that's not the case. A lot of people are capable of doing something truly horrible and then getting up and going to work the next day and becoming a mayor

[00:06:49] or becoming a teacher or just being a normal good neighbor to the rest of the world. It seems like people who are decent and nice and not trying to hurt people have a hard time

[00:07:02] conceptualizing that because you think, well, if I did something so horrible, I would be racked with guilt. But that's why in many cases, you're probably not going to be the person to do something

[00:07:12] like this. If there are underlying mental issues, if there are underlying issues with how they engage with the world, then it's going to be different. Or you just could get someone who is just able to

[00:07:25] live their life and enjoy it. And that's not satisfying because we don't want people to get away with crimes and then enjoy their lives. But I think a lot of people can do that. Is that because the instinct for self-preservation is in some people stronger than a conscience?

[00:07:40] Yes. Oh, 100 percent, I would say in most people. And I mean, if we're being honest with ourselves and that's an extreme outcome, you are avoiding serious prison time in that case. So it would be a huge self-preservation instinct. And I think sometimes people who do something horrible

[00:08:00] justify things to themselves afterwards and say, well, I've lived a good life since then. I've been a good co-worker, a good father, a good neighbor. I'll make up for it in some way.

[00:08:12] You know, it's better that I'm on the outside than spending my time in prison because I'm doing some good here. And I'm not saying that that's what happened in this case, but I think it's you can

[00:08:22] justify anything to yourself. Yeah. And you can also find ways to blame the victim. Yes. Yeah, exactly. So there could be any number of things. I just. If the victim had cooperated, if the victim had not fought back, if the victim's friend

[00:08:35] had not tried to step in, none of this would have happened. So therefore, it's someone else's fault. It's not my fault. And that's just nonsense. It's obviously nonsense, but I think it's

[00:08:45] compelling to somebody who also doesn't want to go to prison. Right. So, yeah, I think good case. That's really horrifying. I feel so bad for Lauren Prier. We will definitely keep an eye on that one

[00:08:58] and see what develops. I think you had this happened in suburban D.C. in the great state of Maryland, where Old Bay seasoning is made. But there is also another case in Maryland. Are you trying to lose weight and feeling like you're getting absolutely nowhere?

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[00:10:25] Medication costs are separate. That's Rowe dot co slash M sheet. So my sources for this were the Baltimore Sun, WMAR 2 ABC News, Baltimore and Fox 5 DC. This is another Maryland case. It is the case

[00:10:47] of 37 year old Rachel Morin. She was a mother to five children last summer. She was murdered while jogging along the Ma and Pa Heritage Trail in Harford County in August. So this is in Maryland.

[00:11:00] This is one of those rails to trails, you know, kind of situations somewhat like Delphi in that it's like a public space, kind of a public park space that's converted from old railroad tracks.

[00:11:13] She was minding her own business going on a jog and a man killed her. A man raped and murdered her. These kinds of cases make me so angry because it's a perpetrator feeling that a victim's life

[00:11:26] is is not worth it. Their sexual gratification is more important or their rage or their need to feel powerful over somebody. These kinds of cases do make me very angry. So I'm trying to

[00:11:39] keep it together. But she had five children. Of course, immediately, you know, the so-called true crime sleuths on the Internet are hounding members of her family, hounding men that she was in a relationship with or had past relationships with. But pretty early on, it became clear that

[00:11:58] authorities had a DNA profile, a comprehensive DNA profile. The problem was that the offender was not in American law enforcement databases. So they had a full profile of DNA. They didn't have any ability

[00:12:11] to say who it was, though, because he wasn't in the system. But it became more complicated when the case was linked to an assault and a home invasion involving a mother and a nine-year-old

[00:12:24] girl in Los Angeles. So it was clear that this perpetrator was doing all kinds of different crimes. But he remained in the wind until apparently investigators say a lead came in on May

[00:12:37] 20th, which is actually Rachel Morin's birthday. So at this point, the FBI was involved. They were chasing down leads in El Salvador. I guess the profile kind of indicated that the perpetrator was from El Salvador. They actually used genetic genealogy to identify the person through relatives

[00:12:56] in El Salvador. And turns out he also may have killed somebody in El Salvador. And the perpetrator was identified as 23-year-old Victor Martinez Hernandez. And on Friday, he was arrested at a Tulsa, Oklahoma sports bar. So he turns out to have been

[00:13:16] in the United States illegally. And he was arrested and has, I believe, been this process to extradite him from Oklahoma to Maryland. I know that Rachel Morin's mother has expressed concern that this case is going to be highly politicized because of the fact that he

[00:13:38] was here illegally. In other words, people will try to use this case as a reason to somehow limit or change immigration policy. I think it's interesting and very sad that a number of people, a lot of

[00:13:57] people do try to use and exploit these cases for their own benefit. In some cases, people may try to use or exploit a case to try to get clicks or try to get downloads on a YouTube or a podcast.

[00:14:13] But also, obviously, a lot of people will look at a case like this and say, well, I can use this particular case to further my own political agenda. Yes, I think it's unfortunate, especially when a

[00:14:24] victim's family is saying, we don't want that. We want our case to be focused on individually. We don't need to be dragged into some larger narrative that we don't really want to be a part

[00:14:35] of. I think people need to kind of keep that in mind when discussing these cases. I think, to be honest, I don't think individual murder cases make for helpful and comprehensive political fodder. I think there are conversations to be had about crime. There are conversations

[00:14:55] to be had about violence against women. There are conversations to be had about immigration and how do we ensure that immigration is safe and accessible and that things are working out? But basically, holding up an individual crime apropos of nothing and saying, you know, illegal

[00:15:13] immigrants are being violent, what are the numbers? I mean, no one's ever talking about the statistics. Yeah, you need to look at larger trends. And obviously, anyone who cares about other people, we look at stories of true crime. And one thing that goes through our mind is what

[00:15:32] can be done to prevent this? Yes, to make sure that tragedies like this don't happen again. And if there are common denominators that pop up, then maybe there's something that could be

[00:15:43] done about them through a change of policy. But you wouldn't just look at outliers. You'd want to say, is it a problem? Are there a lot of illegal immigrants committing violent crimes? Yes. And it's not about twisting one case to fit a narrative. It's about looking at larger

[00:16:02] sociological issues. And, you know, but that's very dry and it doesn't have a sympathetic victim at the center of it. So it becomes more difficult to sell that, I guess. I just think it's unfortunate.

[00:16:15] I feel very bad for her family on so many levels. I mean, these are five kids left without a mother. I mean, I just hope that they don't get dragged into anything because it really sounds like they

[00:16:25] are saying we do not want that. That is not what we want. I hope that justice can be secured for Rachel Morin again. I mean, if you want to look at a widespread trend, it's violence of men against

[00:16:38] women, you know, I mean, and why does that happen and how can we take steps to mitigate that, identify what is going on there to make a man look at a woman who's minding her own business

[00:16:51] and jogging on a path, say, I want to rape and murder her. What is going on there? That's what I mean, that's the that's the wider trend that I want looked at. But, you know,

[00:17:01] I think there there's a there's a time for that conversation. And honestly, it might be one of those problems that is just so multifaceted that it's impossible to draw any widespread conclusions from one case. Yes. And I don't know if it's an issue in this case.

[00:17:18] I do think there's a mental health crisis in this country and a lot of people who are mentally ill are not being recognized as such and their conditions are not being treated. And we see them

[00:17:32] committing violent crimes or being victims of violent crimes because they're in a vulnerable situation. You know, take, for instance, somebody hypothetically who mental health crisis leads them to addiction, leads them to a scary, bad situation where then they become victimized. It's it's so

[00:17:49] it's it's so multifaceted. It's also a fentanyl crisis in this country, which we have covered in drug use and drug addiction can cause violent crimes. Yeah. So both with people addicted, perpetrating the crimes or is Anya correctly points out being victims of crimes? Yes. I think

[00:18:08] all of us can be sympathetic to somebody who whose mental illness leads them to to violence because that can be something that can be very difficult to control and perhaps even more so to someone whose mental illness leads them to a dangerous situation where then they become victimized.

[00:18:24] And I think early intervention for that. But I also think a lot of people who are perpetrating sexual assaults and rape murders like this, I don't necessarily think that there's an underlying mental health issue there. I think there's I think there's often just a sense of entitlement

[00:18:39] and a hatred of women. And so I would also be careful not to ascribe too much to mental health in this case, because, I mean, obviously, I'm open minded if we hear from the defense that

[00:18:50] there is some issue here, then that's fine. But I would also say that that's not necessarily going to be even a fix for some of this violence against women, especially. I mean,

[00:19:02] in a case like this, it seems to be a complete stranger and there can just be a level of women are here to serve my purpose. And if I have to kill one to remove a witness or because she

[00:19:14] fought back, then so be it. Yeah, it's very frightening that a woman can't even be safe doing. Just walking in a park, yeah, jogging, going on a jog, something a lot of us, I'm sure,

[00:19:27] have done. It makes me angry that she couldn't be safe in this environment. She couldn't do her job and then go back to her kids and go back to her life where a lot of people seem to have

[00:19:37] loved and cared about her. It's not fair. And I just hope that, yeah, I wish her family all the best. And I hope that there are answers about why this happened, not that answers would even

[00:19:51] make anything better, because I think there are no answers that would make sense to any of us. And now I think you're going to do a case in Texas, which is known for making really good Dr.

[00:20:02] Pepper. There you go. So Oklahoma. So he was arrested in Oklahoma. Let's go down to Texas. And my sources for this were KHOU11 and Click2Houston. So this is awful. This is a murder of a 12-year-old girl. So on Sunday, June 16th, 2024, around 10 p.m., Alexis Nungare

[00:20:24] told her 12-year-old daughter, Jocelyn, to not stay up late. You know, they had to be up early. Unfortunately, sometime before midnight, Jocelyn snuck out of her family's Houston apartment. Surveillance video picked her up at a 7-Eleven off of West Rankin Road in Houston. This is very

[00:20:42] near where her family lived, so it's in walking distance. And it catches her walking with a man in a pink shirt and dark pants and a red, white, and blue hat. So apparently around that time, Jocelyn was talking on her phone with her 13-year-old boyfriend. The boyfriend's not

[00:20:58] there with her. They're talking on the phone. And the boyfriend hears her interact with two adults. So this 7-Eleven is about like a two-minute walk away from a small creek that links up to Green's Bayou in Houston. And unfortunately, the following day, someone spotted Jocelyn's body in

[00:21:16] that creek or bayou. And she had been strangled and raped. So on June 20th, today, the day that we're recording, there was an update in this case. Police descended on the Canfield Lakes apartments.

[00:21:30] That's about a 13-minute walk from the 7-Eleven or a two-minute drive. And footage collected by ClickToHouston showed police detaining a shirtless man in pink shorts and another man in some sort of Garfield the Cat basketball t-shirt and leading them away. So it seems like two people,

[00:21:50] two adult men have been detained in Jocelyn's case and are being looked at heavily here. So this is just obviously so tragic for Jocelyn's family. Her mother has been very vocal talking about what this loss has done to their family and how destroyed they are by it.

[00:22:13] And wishing karma would get whoever did this. And so if these arrests are in need of the perpetrators, then karma may have struck pretty quickly in terms of that. But of course, nothing

[00:22:28] will bring Jocelyn back and the family will have to deal with that loss forever and that trauma. And it's just heartbreaking. But yeah, I don't know. Sometimes I really despair of this world where people would do something like this to a 12-year-old.

[00:22:49] Yeah, it's horrible. It's horrible. It's trite just for me to sit here and say the word horrible over and over again, but it's hard to know what else to say. Yeah, it's just, it's really bad. Some people, I don't know, it just, they like,

[00:23:04] you're supposed to protect children. You're supposed to want to protect children and keep them safe. That should be the normal human instinct. And some people see a child and want to sexually exploit and or kill them. And I don't know.

[00:23:19] Yeah, I don't understand. I just, I don't know. It's just awful. Well, now we're going to go down to Kentucky, which of course is where Colonel Harlan Sanders opened his first Kentucky Fried Chicken restaurant. And this is a story that I found in

[00:23:38] the Lexington Herald-Leader. This is the story I read was written by Taylor Six. So I'm obviously very, very old man who's encountered a lot of media over my life. So I vaguely remember a comedy

[00:23:56] routine somewhere. I don't even remember who said it or where I encountered it. But someone said that when you read certain like small town newspapers, you almost need like a code or a guidebook to

[00:24:10] figure out what's really being said. And there are certain elements in this story. I sure wish I had that guidebook because there's things about it that confuse me. So if I apologize for that.

[00:24:27] One thing, for instance, I noticed that and you will see in a minute why this becomes relevant is that in the online version of the story, which of course where I read it,

[00:24:41] they made a point of having like a big picture of the judge I'm about to discuss, Judge Julie Goodman. And they also had a big picture of Fayette Commonwealth Attorney Kimberly Baird. And

[00:25:00] I think the reason why they had these pictures was so that the reader would know that Judge Goodman is a white woman and that Fayette Commonwealth Attorney Kimberly Baird is an African-American.

[00:25:16] For a lot of stories, it's not really necessary to know if a person is white or black. But perhaps this is not one of those stories. I don't know. Let's talk about it. So this involves a case that actually began a couple of years ago. Actually, it happened

[00:25:39] on July 3rd, 2020. There was a car crash. A woman named Tammy Botkin is killed in this car crash when her car is hit by an SUV that is being driven by the defendant in the case, a man

[00:25:58] named Cornell Denmark Thomas II. And he is said by prosecutors to have been high on drugs and behaving irresponsibly. They charge him with murder. And he also happens to be an African-American. And so the judge, Judge Goodman, looks at all of this, and she decided

[00:26:25] to dismiss the man's indictment for the murder. And she said, well, I'm dismissing this because I feel that the attorney, Ms. Baird, her office has a disturbing history of seeking disproportionate punishment for African-Americans. And her dismissal of the case against this man who

[00:26:52] caused this car crash has been very controversial within the area. Understandably. And in fact, the attorney general of the state of Kentucky is joining in efforts to try to appeal it and to get this indictment reinstated so that this person can face a jury. And it may

[00:27:14] also be worth noting that the judge has made some other decisions that have been pretty quickly overturned by higher courts. There was recently a man who was sentenced to spend, I believe, 43 years in prison. And she ordered him released. And he was pretty quickly reincarcerated after a higher...

[00:27:39] What did he do? Or what was his charge? That's a complicated case involving... Oh, great. That is a complicated case involving... Let me get down to it here. Well, it sounds like it's a complicated case. So maybe a couple of things.

[00:28:00] This is the case of Gregory Simpson. He said he was being unlawfully detained. He was serving time for a conviction in 2018. But he had criminal charges that went all the way back to 1997. And so in that time span, he'd occasionally be released for parole

[00:28:22] and then go on to commit other crimes. And so because of his other convictions, his sentence was enhanced due to Kentucky's persistent felony offender statute, which can increase the sentence for a crime. And he said, well, the law says I should only serve this maximum sentence.

[00:28:47] And so I don't see why my previous felonies should increase that. And this judge said, well, I agree with you. You're free to go. And the higher court said, no, no, put him back in. And I think it's worth noting that this Commonwealth attorney, Miss Baird,

[00:29:09] has said that she doesn't like this judge handling other murder cases that her office is conducting. And she said if she had her druthers, she would not have this judge handle any criminal cases whatsoever. So there's something going on here. What do you make of all of this?

[00:29:30] Well, it seems like some pretty bad blood between a judge and a prosecutor. And I do find it personally disconfitting that you have a white judge telling a African-American prosecutor that, you know, they're racist. I think that seems kind of bizarre. But I don't know,

[00:29:48] maybe the judge has some statistics that bear that out. I don't know. I think that that makes me uncomfortable on the surface, at least. I think that's OK. It's a bold move. So I don't know. At the same time, I think it's a pretty extreme move to be

[00:30:09] able to bar a judge from taking on criminal cases. And so I think it would probably need rise to a pretty extreme level to get anywhere near there. So, yeah, I don't know. It seems interesting. Yeah, we're not there. We don't know everything that's going on. But one

[00:30:29] quick way to evaluate things, it's a quick way, it's not always... The most comprehensive. Not a comprehensive way, maybe not always an accurate way, is to ask yourself, what is the reaction of a person's peers to things? And I look at the fact that this judge

[00:30:47] seems to be having a lot of her rulings overturned, and maybe her peers aren't really impressed with her performance on the bench. And then I look at the fact that this Commonwealth attorney is having her efforts joined and supported by the Attorney General of the state.

[00:31:04] Makes me think that maybe people think this prosecutor has some good points to make. Do you think that what they're asking for is realistic, that you could bar a judge from trying certain cases? A lawfully elected judge, is that compromising anything that the community

[00:31:23] chose this judge to do this presumably? It's difficult because of course we've seen this in the Delphi case where someone is claiming that a judge is biased. And you have to really demonstrate that the judge has shown such a

[00:31:40] bias. And it's also hard to say, well, a judge is going to be biased in this case because of something the judge did in another case. Because we're trained to think of these cases in isolation.

[00:31:52] We are trained to think of these cases in isolation. But yeah, it certainly seems like if there's a pattern there, then that's problematic. And yeah, I mean, when I'm looking at Julie Muth Goodman's sort of background in the voter guide questionnaire from 2022,

[00:32:12] she says she was first elected to the District Court bench in 1980. So she's seemingly been there for, you know, I mean, I think she didn't, hasn't practiced on the bench that whole time. I think there's this, you know,

[00:32:29] she went back and forth and did other things. But I think she was a trial lawyer and specialized in product liability, construction defect, class actions and antitrust. So it does not seem like beyond her stint as an assistant attorney general, she necessarily dealt

[00:32:54] entirely with criminal defense or criminal matters prosecution, although she did also do criminal defense. So she's done it all. There's nothing in her background that would make me feel like she's totally biased towards one side. But I think if her stuff keeps getting overturned,

[00:33:09] then that is a red flag. That is a red flag. So I'll certainly be interested in what happens in this case moving forward. I will too. You're finding a lot of interesting cases of like judge

[00:33:23] conflicts. We've been covering such a case. I don't know if you've heard of it. It's the Delphi murder case, the case of Richard Allen, where the defense attorney's always, I'm sorry, sometimes we do interviews and people ask us questions and we just start answering by rote.

[00:33:42] And I thought you were one of those people. There you go. It would be easier for me to recognize that you're not a reporter asking me questions if like you had some sort of a garment that identified you as being affiliated with a particular podcast.

[00:34:00] Oh, you want me to do an ad, a clumsily inserted ad for our t-shirts? Is that what this is? I don't see you inserting them. Every week is I have to come up with a transition.

[00:34:12] Well, see, I was just going to let our conversation end and then tastefully bring it up. But I guess we're built a little different. So yeah, you're sinking back in your chair in

[00:34:26] dismay. So if you go to murdersheetshop.com, you're going to find some t-shirts that we made for you all. And they're really cool. And they say the Murder Sheet people on them and they have

[00:34:39] our logo background on them. And I think they're neat. To the best of my knowledge, no judge who was wearing a Murder Sheet people t-shirt at the time has had a ruling overturned. Can I just say if you're a judge, please don't buy these because you don't...

[00:35:02] What are you doing? No, no, no, no, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Everybody should buy these. But don't wear them on the bench because I don't want... Do you want the branding of having someone's ruling get overturned while they're wearing a Murder Sheet people t-shirt? People

[00:35:18] will blame us. It'll look insane. I don't want you going on the air and offering lists of people who should not buy the shirt. You can buy the shirt, but just maybe don't wear it except under your robes. But then make sure you

[00:35:32] keep those on. I don't want to be responsible for this. You're saying, oh, these are the people who shouldn't buy it. Everybody should buy it. Sorry I care about our criminal justice system more than the actual lawyer on this program. She doesn't know how to do a commercial.

[00:35:50] But I think if you're a judge, buy them in secret. If everyone else buy them, they're really cool. And if you join our Patreon, you get free shipping. So consider that as well. If you join our Patreon

[00:36:01] at the $5 level, you don't have to pay for shipping. They come in promptly. The colors look great. You're going to look really cool. We've had a lot of positive feedback from them so far. So we

[00:36:13] know that they're not a disaster and maybe good things will happen to you. I don't know. And also about our Patreon, we tend to be a bit looser in this week-ending cheat sheet,

[00:36:26] particularly towards the end of the episodes. We do a couple lives a month with our Patreons where we are this way through the whole thing. Actually worse, even more incoherent and silly.

[00:36:37] So if you want that, then come join our Patreon because it's fun. We have a good time. We kind of chat with everyone. It's sort of like people just ask us questions or chat with us about

[00:36:48] different topics and we'll kind of answer anything, but in our usual unhinged way. Yes. We'll tell you the tea. We'll tell you the gossip. We'll tell you what we really think. Yeah. We'll cold porter it. Anything goes.

[00:37:00] But anyways, thank you all so much for listening. And if you have a case that you want us to cover on the cheat sheet, please let us know, murdersheet at gmail.com. Thank you so much.

[00:37:15] Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us at murdersheet at gmail.com. If you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[00:37:33] If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com slash murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www.buymeacoffee.com slash murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.

[00:37:54] Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet. And who you can find on the web at kevintg.com. If you're looking to talk with other listeners about a case we've covered,

[00:38:09] you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for

[00:38:22] patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.