The Cheat Sheet: Fire and Feuds

[00:00:01] Content Warning. This episode includes discussion of murder and violence. Another bit of a warning or a heads up. Our apologies in advance. We are likely going to be mispronouncing some names in this episode.

[00:00:16] Today on The Cheat Sheet, we're going to be taking you through a number of different cases. Three of which occurred in the United States, one of which is a case from abroad. We're going to be talking about missing persons cases. We're going to be talking about murders.

[00:00:32] We're going to be talking about arson and giving you a recap on each and discussing some of these headlines. My name is Ania Kane. I'm a journalist. And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney. And this is The Murder Sheet.

[00:00:46] We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases. We're The Murder Sheet. And this is The Cheat Sheet, Fire and Feuds.

[00:01:45] Where are we going to start? We're going to start with a fire. This is a case that relates back to another case that we've been looking into for some time and intending to cover.

[00:01:56] And I just want to shout out to the listener who's been encouraging us to cover this and has been so persistent and helpful in sending us documents and updates.

[00:02:06] So shout out to them on not naming them because I don't know if they want to be named, but you know who you are. And we're very grateful. We're appreciative.

[00:02:14] This case is about a fire. That's how it starts off with. But it's going to get significantly worse as we discuss it. So thanks to this listener, we were able to review a copy of a probable cause affidavit written up by Stephen Griffith of the Pennsylvania State Police.

[00:02:33] He's specifically with troop G, the fire marshal unit. So in October 28, 2023, police in Bedford County, Pennsylvania headed to a house in Napier Township. There had been a fire. The side deck of a house had been set on fire.

[00:02:54] All these plastic children's toys were burned up. Parts of the deck were burned up. But fortunately, the homeowner had gotten down there with a fire extinguisher and put it out before anyone could be hurt. But let's be clear. There were three children in the house at the time.

[00:03:10] So police are investigating this and they find out that one of the residents occupants who were not naming any of these people out of privacy, but was the wife, the separated estranged wife of a woman named Heather Dbert. Sorry if I'm pronouncing that wrong. Who is Heather Dbert?

[00:03:36] Well, Dbert and this person have been married a year and things had gone wrong in their relationship since approximately September 2022. Dbert starts making a bunch of threats. At one point, she attacks the car that her wife and her father-in-law are in, smashing them.

[00:03:58] She's charged with making terroristic threats against them on October 18th, 2023. So things are escalating in terms of this situation over the breakdown of this relationship. And then suddenly there's this fire. Griffith is investigating the scene. He's looking through everything.

[00:04:22] He finds the remains of what appears to be a Molotov cocktail. And he identifies that as the incendiary device that was used to set this deck on fire. So somebody had thrown a Molotov cocktail in with the intent of burning this house down.

[00:04:39] Fortunately, that did not succeed but it very well could have. Now, police get to work knowing what they know about Dbert. They start digging into her cell phone records.

[00:04:53] They find out that she'd actually mentioned a specific person, a man named Zachary Sellers, in her threats to this family saying she was going to get him to do something for her. Bad to them.

[00:05:04] They figure out that her cell phone records and Hill's cell phone records are together at his house 24 hours before the arson. And that either driving around together, the cell phone records indicate that Dbert dropped him off in the area of this house before the arson.

[00:05:22] And then she went up to a place called Club Lust in West Virginia, which in the PCA it speculated that that was to create an alibi. Now, here's where things get incredibly disturbing. So when he's interrogated on December 12, 2023 about all this, Sellers confesses.

[00:05:40] He says that she asked him to set the house on fire. He gets there, he realizes their children inside the home. He calls her and says, do you still want me to do this? Given that there are children inside the home and she responded kill them all.

[00:05:54] So that's the story of this arson. She's been charged with this. So I want to return to the question I asked a minute ago, then maybe ask a follow up question. Who is Heather Dbert? And has she ever been in proximity to anything like this before?

[00:06:17] The answer to the second question is yes. Here's where things get even more disturbing. Heather Dbert once was in a relationship with a young woman named Fawn Marie Mountain. Fawn Marie Mountain has not been seen alive since November 25, 2012. Let's go back in time.

[00:06:37] That point, Mountain and Dbert are living in Claesburg, Pennsylvania. They're in a trailer. They're living in a trailer together. The last time that November 25 date where she's seen, she is helping out Dbert's family. They're sterilizing the butcher shop that they own.

[00:06:56] So it's her, it's Mountain, Dbert, Dbert's brother and the brother's girlfriend at the time. And they're all cleaning. People talk when they talk about Fawn, they talk about what a gentle person she was. They talk about a lot of her struggles in life.

[00:07:14] And they also talk about how important being a mother was to her. And, you know, after November 25th, she's gone. Now family and friends talk about Dbert in terms of how she treated Mountain incredibly possessive to the point of being abusive. So Mountain's gone.

[00:07:36] But for some reason, Dbert doesn't seem to care. She's uncooperative with the subsequent investigation. And unfortunately, the ball is sort of dropped in terms of when exactly Mountain is reported missing because by all accounts, Dbert had pushed out a lot of Mountain's friends, family.

[00:07:58] People didn't really necessarily have an eye on this because she'd isolated her so much. And then she's gone and that case remains unsolved. So no charges have been filed in that? No charges have ever been filed against Dbert.

[00:08:12] She's not been charged or even necessarily publicly accused by the police in that situation. But obviously now that you have a situation where she's been charged with arson and is okay with, you know, apparently burning down the house of her wife then,

[00:08:31] I think it should put a lot of scrutiny on Fawn's case because her family deserves answers. It's been over a decade and Fawn deserved better, her family deserved better. And maybe now that something is happening with this arson case, there can be more scrutiny.

[00:08:50] I think once you have a very serious crime and then there's a background of while somebody went missing associated with this person, I think it's perfectly okay to name names. Yeah, I certainly agree. Obviously, since we just did it. Yeah. Kevin's like, don't do it.

[00:09:04] Well, yeah, I think this is a case that we would like to continue looking back into the arson case but also maybe trying to get more details on Fawn's case out there.

[00:09:16] Yeah, it's upsetting that if what happened to Fawn is what we suspect may have happened and if justice had been found for her sooner than perhaps this arson would never have happened. Yeah, she couldn't have been allowed to hurt other people.

[00:09:34] But fortunately no one got killed in this fire. So that's, well, I think you wanted to talk about a case that actually is not from the United States. So a bit of a departure for us.

[00:09:47] And again, we have to apologize because I'm fairly certain we're going to mispronounce some names here. This is a story about a Minnesota man, a comedian whose name I'm going to guess is pronounced Tauzer of Jong. This man was a comedian. And an activist.

[00:10:09] And an activist to try to promote the cause of diversity. He goes down to take a trip to Medellin, Colombia. And while he's in Colombia as a tourist, he's having a good time photos appear on social media of him with good looking women having fun.

[00:10:38] He goes out to meet more privately with one of these women presumably and doesn't come back. And shortly thereafter, he reaches out not only to a friend in Colombia, but also to his brother.

[00:11:00] And he lets them know that he has been kidnapped and he's being held at gunpoint and they're demanding a $2,000 ransom. And apparently kidnapping tourists is not something out of the ordinary in that part of the world. So he contacts his friend and his brother with this information.

[00:11:26] They're not able to get the money to him right away. I believe somebody contacts the police and unfortunately, things don't work out happily. His body is later found in a ravine. He has been killed as a result of stab wounds and blunt force trauma.

[00:11:47] And the speculation is that perhaps he was killed while trying to make a botched escape attempt. That is so awful. Jesus. It's a very sad case. It's a very sad case. This was a man who by all accounts was bringing joy into the world.

[00:12:08] He was also working to advocate for more diversity and a better world. And he's just trying to have a good time on a vacation. I think one thing it certainly underscores is apparently his first contact with at least some of these women were made online.

[00:12:29] And we have to always be wary of people we meet online and as to what their real motives are. That seems very obvious to say. And it's something that certainly seems obvious when you look at what happens to other people.

[00:12:48] But when you yourself are in that situation and you're having communications with someone online, it's easier than you might think to fall into the trap of believing them and taking them seriously.

[00:13:02] And actually in the article on this case from Vice, they reported that there's a growing sense that some of these kidnapping gangs are actually using social media

[00:13:12] not only to lure in victims but to track them and note where they are or even target them in the first place. So if you're in a tourist situation and you're, hey, I'm having a great time at this cafe and posting it on your social media apps,

[00:13:28] then not to be scary but that can alert people who may not have great intentions about where you are, where to get to you. And that can be something that you don't think about because you're just thinking about it. You're having fun.

[00:13:43] Yeah, you're just having fun and you're just trying to share what you're doing with people which is fine. Maybe don't share pictures of where you're at while you're there. We've talked a lot about how social media and online predators can target children in cases in the United States,

[00:13:59] but that danger can at times apply to adults where tourists are being targeted. And of course, you know, he was a member of the Minnesota Hmong community and they are reeling from this and it's just, it's a terrible tragedy.

[00:14:20] So I know one other case that you were looking into, Kevin though, back in the United States in Texas came with more of a sense of answers finally being found

[00:14:32] but perhaps even more questions being raised at this time which can happen with some of these DNA genetic genealogy cases, of course. You get into a situation where maybe you identify who somebody is but then you really want to know what happened to them.

[00:14:46] How could something so horrible have happened to them? Yeah, a man named Clarence Lynn Wilson fell off his family's radar back in the mid 1980s. And this, by the way, is a story that I think we found in USA today.

[00:15:03] He fell off their radar back in the mid 1980s and all of us have families. Maybe it points very close to them at other points or not.

[00:15:15] And if we fall out of contact with a cousin or whoever, it's not like the first thing that comes to your mind is, oh my God, something terrible has happened to them. I think you're underestimating our true crime listeners here, Kevin, because that is what happens with me.

[00:15:32] But I think we're all more hyper aware of that today and I also think that the internet and social media has changed things and cell phones. Yeah, back in the mid 80s maybe people weren't quite always as hyper connected as they are now.

[00:15:47] So he fell out of contact with his family. They just assumed he's out there living his own life. Yeah, and they've said that they thought that. They just there seems to have been some kind of family falling out to a certain level.

[00:16:00] But just more of like we're going to go our own way, maybe be estranged, but you're going to live your life. We're going to live our life. Yes, we'll go our separate ways.

[00:16:12] It turns out about a year or so after their last contact with him, a body was discovered. And this body was discovered in Crater Lake, which is less than an hour away from Houston, Texas.

[00:16:33] This was a male body who had been shot twice and weighed down with a cinder block and only very, very recently was DNA work done. And this man's body was identified, of course, is Clarence Lynn Wilson.

[00:16:50] So he was not out there living his own life, living his best life away from his family. He had been murdered.

[00:16:59] This really raises questions. I know the article mentioned that Wilson had been married and like the last time his family saw him, he was visiting with his wife and what not.

[00:17:10] What happened to his wife? Does she have any light to shine on this? Why was there no missing person's case? Who killed him? Who killed him? What happened?

[00:17:21] One of his relatives in the piece actually notes that something as intense as having a body weighed down by a cinder block in a lake. That sounds like it's quite an effort to put into covering something up.

[00:17:37] It's not like he's just left in a lot somewhere. So what exactly happened here? So on the one hand, his family gets some answers. He wasn't avoiding you. He wasn't estranged from me all these years. He was dead. He was murdered.

[00:17:52] But now there seems to be even more questions out there for them to ponder and wrestle with, which is what happened and why? Yes. I hope they can get further answers into why he was killed so heinously.

[00:18:05] But it does show you that, I mean, the advances in genetic genealogy have just been such a wonderful game changer for some of these cold cases. And you do love to see John and Jane Doe's getting their names back.

[00:18:18] But that's not everything. Sometimes there's also an underlying murder case that really needs to be solved as well. And this is certainly one of them. So this is another case in Texas. It's an older case.

[00:18:34] But the reason this came to our attention is not because of a development in the case. It's because New York Times Magazine covered it in a really great article by Sarah Viren. I apologize if I'm pronouncing her last name wrong.

[00:18:47] Headlined, podcasters took up her sister's murder investigation. Then they turned on her. Obviously I'm going to click on that. That's like written for us. And also, yikes. So we're not going to get into the entire article. I really would encourage people to read it themselves.

[00:19:07] We'll include a link, subscribe. They do some pretty good true crime coverage of sort of the wider issues of the business, not just the cases. And that can be good to stay informed upon and, you know, to support journalism, all that.

[00:19:23] But let's talk about maybe some of the ethical considerations and issues raised by what the situation described in this article. First, some background. 1975, a young woman named Deborah Sue Williamson, or also called Debbie by her family. She's murdered in the carport of her house where she lives.

[00:19:44] Henry Lee Lucas confesses to the murder. Like many false confessions, he gets a bunch of stuff wrong. It's about specifically raping her. There's no evidence to indicate she was raped.

[00:19:56] But it was one of those things where Lucas's confessions sort of allowed police to roll up a bunch of cases at once. And he was known for that, right? Yeah. Doing a lot of confessions. Oh yeah. And yeah, I mean, he was falsely confessing left and right.

[00:20:13] And again, it's unfortunate. I'm certainly not. I don't know what was in the hearts of any investigator who was sort of taking those and checking off boxes.

[00:20:23] But the impulse to maybe wrap stuff up was problematic because you're not checking, okay, well, he's saying this, but here's the real crime scene, you know. So actually, Williamson's parents were two of the first people to really be like, uh, that doesn't match her case at all.

[00:20:44] So they were, they were skeptical of it. But police wrote it off. And all these years later, a woman named Liz Flat who is Debbie's younger sister went into the true crime space to get help.

[00:21:00] She wanted her sister's case to really get new eyes on it, new resources and to find answers about what happened. Her and her family had to live with all these years and they want to know what happened.

[00:21:15] So she connects with two people named George Jared and Jennifer Buckholz. And these people are podcasters? Yes. Jared's also a journalist and Buckholz is also a professor of criminal justice at a for-profit university. That's what the New York Times says.

[00:21:34] So Buckholz's podcast is apparently called Break the Case and Jared's is the Diamond State, Diamond State Murder Board. Okay. So, Flat connects with them. They want to help or they're staying to her. We're going to use crowdsourcing to help your sister's case.

[00:21:52] That involves setting up a Facebook group, building up a community of people who care about the case. And she and Buckholz seemingly get close. So I mean nothing wrong so far, right? Yeah. That's pretty normal.

[00:22:08] One interesting wrinkle is that Flat's family years ago was able to get a hold of her sister's case file. Next we first of all explain what that means and then talk about how rare this is. I don't know how they did it, but it's impressive.

[00:22:24] By case file you mean the actual investigative file compiled by the police? Yes. So that's very rare. Oftentimes police forces or not always, but oftentimes police forces can really hold on to those to the point where it's like, okay, are you even putting any work on this?

[00:22:45] Like what's it going to do? There's reasons to keep it back because it could hurt future prosecution if it's all out there and they can't vet confessions.

[00:22:55] There's also reasons like if it's something from decades and decades ago and no work is being done perhaps it should just be released. Because maybe answers are the goal at that point rather than adjudication. So her parents had it, she had it, she shared it with Buckholz.

[00:23:11] She says under the conditions that it not be shared with anybody else. Things go wrong because Buckholz apparently shared it with, she and Jared were asked to do some kind of like crime-con thing called like the Cold Case Club and they were going to cover this case.

[00:23:25] And she shared it with a producer from there and flat found out was very upset. Buckholz says, well I told you I wouldn't publicize it. I didn't say I would, wouldn't share it with anybody.

[00:23:39] And they have a phone call that flat records and there's kind of this falling out as a result about this. Then things escalate. Flat kind of, what they say crashes their Zoom conference where they're doing this Cold Case Club thing.

[00:23:58] No one has a record of what exactly happened there so it's, I don't know whether that characterization is correct. Then they kick Flat out of the Facebook group that they started for her sister's case. Then she, you know, Flat criticizes them in the local press.

[00:24:15] Then they criticize her on their, one of their podcasts saying that her sister probably wouldn't approve of how she's handling things. And the tone and tenor of the Facebook groups increasingly turns against the sisters saying like who is she covering up for?

[00:24:28] Like you can't make this stuff up. So I mean it's a mess but it does underscore some problems and some competing interests within true crime that I think are interesting to pull out. Let's talk about that.

[00:24:46] Well one thing that Buckholz has said, she wouldn't do an interview with The Times but she did answer questions via email. And this is actually something I strongly agree with. So I don't think families should not have control over a case.

[00:25:00] It's the case is bigger than that and there's a public interest in seeing justice done. And sometimes, you know, I mean especially if you get into cases where maybe there is family involvement,

[00:25:13] it would be ridiculous to have that just be a general rule of true crime ethics that like the family has complete editorial control about everything in a case. And also not fair to the families because that would be an insane undertaking for them.

[00:25:28] Is that fair? Does that align with how you think about these things? That aligns with how I think but with that said there has to be nuances there. Yes. The families should be respected.

[00:25:39] And also for a moment let's set aside the issue that this woman was the victim's sister. The way we do journalism is if someone gives us documents or if someone gives us files or what have you, we don't use those files.

[00:26:01] We don't share those files unless we get permission from our source. Well that's what I'm getting to because it's not a matter of oh I'm trying to control everything seemingly here. It's a matter of you told me you wouldn't do something. And then you did.

[00:26:20] And then you did and even if whatever weird semantic version of it is how you read into it, I don't think you should be trying to trick sources. And what makes me think that there was definitely some weird sketchy semantic stuff going on here?

[00:26:36] The recording that the New York Times heard indicated that Buckholz admits that well, I didn't ask you ahead of time because I knew you would say no. And saying yes is the important thing for the case and we need to, this is good for Debbie's case.

[00:26:53] Oh my God that's you know, you don't betray a sources trust like that and I really feel like you really don't betray a family member of the victims trust like that in a case like this.

[00:27:04] I think that that is just, you have to have a level of humility I think. You have to have a level of humility that like maybe you think that sharing this with crime con is the most important thing for the case

[00:27:19] and it's going to blow it wide open. But your feelings are not the only ones that need to be considered. And also consider maybe like listen I'm all about getting information out there and digging into things

[00:27:35] and digging into things that maybe some people find uncomfortable or don't want to talk about or don't want to get into. But is having a little zoom chat on crime con going to bust the whole thing wide open?

[00:27:47] I would also think with all due respect if I think that a particular course of action would be very helpful to a case. If I feel that if we do this it's really going to help advance the case.

[00:28:07] And I know that someone connected to the case who should have the power to veto whether or not I take that step. If I know they might be against it.

[00:28:16] If I really believe I have a good argument on my side, I'm going to go to that person and say, I know you're not probably going to like this idea but here's what I'd like to do. Here's why I'd like to do it.

[00:28:28] And if my argument is so good and if I have faith in my argument then it very likely might win that person over. And it sounds like in this case they didn't even go to the sister to make the argument. That's such a good point.

[00:28:42] You have that conversation, you push. You say here's why I want to do this. Here's why I think it would be really good. You have those conversations but betraying a source is trust like that when frankly and again

[00:28:56] I'm not saying it wouldn't be justified even if I felt it was a good move but it's not. It's just having a cool opportunity on crime con which listen for a creator that's great.

[00:29:07] You can expand your profile, you're working with one of the top conventions in the business but let's not act like having a bunch of people on a Zoom chatting about a case is going to be, it's exactly revolutionary because it's not.

[00:29:19] And the reason that people say it's revolutionary and it's doing all these things is because they're trying to sell something. I'm all about crowdsourcing. Getting people talking is important. And some of the things I agreed with that Buck Holtz was saying in this article

[00:29:37] it forces law enforcement to pay attention, it forces the public to pay attention, it gets people invested, it can make a positive difference in a case. But it's not everything. It's not everything.

[00:29:50] And to act as if one public event was somehow the key thing I just find very disingenuous. And I keep going back to this but it is people who do this sort of thing literally every day

[00:30:04] I think it's also worth stressing some of these process issues where also in a situation like this it's not an either or, it's not like a binary has to be this or that. If you really feel strongly about it and they're opposed,

[00:30:20] maybe they're willing to work with you and maybe there's compromises. Maybe don't turn over the whole file. Maybe don't turn over any files at all but you can share this, this and this piece of information from the file. There's all sorts of compromises. There's all sorts of compromises.

[00:30:36] And it's people who are in the space doing this sort of work every day. I think that is important to stress because it is important to get information about cases out there and I want people whose families have been victims of crimes to feel you can go forward

[00:30:52] and there are people you can work with who you can trust. Not just us, there's many people out there who will deal ethically with you. I just but it's honestly it's upsetting because stuff like this makes all of us look bad

[00:31:04] because it just becomes like all these podcasters, all these true crime people are just out for blood out for whatever will advance their own careers rather than what will help the case and we're not going to deal with you in a trustworthy manner. It's troubling.

[00:31:19] And then to create a situation where the victim's sister is thrown out of a Facebook group Oh my God. about her case, where people there are raising suspicions about the sister. That's the other part though we do need to talk about because I'm trying to be forgiving.

[00:31:40] I'm trying to be forgiving to other creators. I think it's possible. You're, I think it's possible. You're getting really excited talking with the crime calm people you kind of share something and then maybe you stop and realize, okay, I did something wrong. That was a breach of trust.

[00:31:55] I think that is a beat right. I think the victim's family would be forgiven for not ever dealing with you again after that but but to then double down on it. At that point just take the L you know I mean just

[00:32:09] at that point fall on your sword because it's not it's not fair to then turn around and be egging on which is what Buck Holtz was doing at least in the comments egging on people about like why is she hurting her sister's case. She's not.

[00:32:28] I, she doesn't feel that you're trustworthy anymore. You know, I mean, she was fine with whatever you were doing ahead of this.

[00:32:39] Also, fascinatingly there's a moment where they apparently self published a book on the case and they they talked about how they would get this Kevin because this is going to blow your mind.

[00:32:52] They would have in their Facebook group people that they would designate as quote unquote heels like in wrestling to be the bad guys and they'd ask really provocative wild questions.

[00:33:03] And the goal was that wasn't just to get discussion started according to this New York Times article because they they read this book. That was to target specific people to get them to talk to them.

[00:33:16] I guess the idea is if I post in our Facebook group, you know, Kevin Greenlee is a vampire.

[00:33:26] Discuss then people are you're going to see that it's going to get back to you and then you're going to send a pissed off email to me like why are people in your group saying that I'm a vampire.

[00:33:36] And I got to be like, oh, I'm sorry, feel that way. You know, but how do you feel about garlic? You know, like it's it's to get people and I just I there I don't maybe I don't.

[00:33:48] I've never heard of that before, but it makes me very uncomfortable. I don't like that. I like you reaching out and saying, hey, I have some questions for you. You know, hey, we're, you know, talk to me about this case. I like that.

[00:34:03] I think you should be doing that but trying to like flush people out of the bushes is I don't know. I just find that weird.

[00:34:09] I gotta tell you it's not necessarily my thing, but I can understand why people would enjoy things like professional wrestling and the spectacle of the fake fights and big villains and big heroes or whatever. I can understand the appeal of that.

[00:34:23] And if you enjoy it great, there are things I enjoy that I'm sure other people wouldn't enjoy. I can understand that that sort of thing is great in its place, but true crime is not professional wrestling.

[00:34:38] These are real people with real lives and it needs to be treated with more dignity and respect than bringing in fake heels to try to provoke people. It's not a game. It's not a game. I sometimes get so mad.

[00:34:55] I just, to get biblical, I feel like there should be a cleansing of the temple in some ways. And I'm not saying, oh, you know, some shows should be destroyed.

[00:35:06] I'm saying like people need to figure out this stuff and figure out a way to just not be making a mockery of this because this. And like to be turning everybody on the victim's sister.

[00:35:21] If the victim's sister is coming after you and you feel it's really unfair, I think you should try to talk to her privately, respectfully. Not in a way of like you shouldn't be mad at me, but in a way of like help me understand.

[00:35:40] I think that you should shut the hell up in public because why are you adding? Obviously she feels victimized by you.

[00:35:52] Why are you adding to that if you if you think she's totally wrong or maybe totally unhinged, then then whatever she's saying is made up and maybe maybe you try to address it in a bland statement. And you don't attack her.

[00:36:08] You don't get other people to attack her. And frankly, in this specific situation, I don't feel flat was out of line at all. In fact, I think being betrayed by people and then they double down and tell you, well, it's for your own good.

[00:36:22] It's for your sister's case is absolutely infuriating. And you would be absolutely within your rights to criticize people doing that. I don't I don't understand why you even get into true crime to do stuff like this. But I don't think it's uncommon, unfortunately.

[00:36:42] Kevin mentioned there's a lot of really good people in the space. I completely agree. But then there's and I don't even I don't necessarily think any of it comes out of in most cases bad intentions.

[00:36:52] I don't necessarily think people are sitting around like how can I hurt the victims families? But I think you have to be prepared to deal with blowback in a way that's not so destructive.

[00:37:02] And you have to be prepared to keep your word to people and and not turn around and do things that are totally counter to what you indicated you would do. And again, this is the victim's sister. Think of what this loss means to her.

[00:37:23] Think of all of the life experiences that this woman would have been able to share with her sister that she has been robbed of. Her sister is not going to be at her wedding. Her sister is not going to get to watch her kids grow up.

[00:37:41] They're not going to be able to have lunches together and talk about falling in love or anything like that. All of that is gone forever. So however much you care about the sister about the victim's case, you don't care about it as much as the sister does.

[00:38:01] Because of the sister, this is something that's going to be on her mind every day for as long as she lives. Maybe it's not at the absolute front of her mind every moment.

[00:38:10] But she might like walk outside on the street and see someone her sister's age doing something and might just hit her. And whenever she has these shared life experiences that other people get to have with their sisters, it's going to be a reminder forever.

[00:38:29] And however much you as a podcaster, whatever care about a case at the end of the day, you can move on. And this woman, this sister never can move on. So however much you care about it, she cares about it more.

[00:38:46] That doesn't mean her every decision about it is correct. But it means you have to respect her, you have to treat her seriously. And you don't need to hand over editorial control to a family member. It's not about that.

[00:38:58] It's about if the family member trusts you with documents that they don't want you to publish and part of the reason they're giving them to you is because you said you indicated that you wouldn't publicize them then don't use weasel words to try to get out of that later when it benefits you.

[00:39:14] And I'm not trying to cancel occult and Jared.

[00:39:17] People make mistakes, people do bad things, but I just think in a situation like this it calls for an apology to this person, to the sister, and moving on and trying to do better because this is not the best that we can do as true crime, this sort of thing.

[00:39:33] If you've done everything right and the victims family hates your podcast because maybe you're taking the tack of I think the person who was arrested is innocent, then ultimately maybe there's nothing you can do about that.

[00:39:47] But you can certainly keep your word about confidential documents and you can avoid making a situation worse by getting defensive and fighting back when frankly you have no leg to stand on.

[00:39:57] That's not that's not that's not and one thing that this New York Times article revealed was that a group associated with buck holds did a similar thing, or the very least employed similar narratives against a sister of the victim in the Rebecca Gould case.

[00:40:17] Her name is Tiffani Ballard Moore. She's she got a lot of criticism from some of these groups because she wouldn't go on different podcasts covering her sister's case.

[00:40:29] Where do these people get the nerve? She doesn't owe anybody anything. She doesn't have to go on your freaking podcast or talk about anything. Listen, I get from if you're trying to get answers and the families, the victims family won't talk to you.

[00:40:45] I get that behind the scenes that can be frustrating because you're trying to get a fuller picture and they're not cooperating, but you don't get to criticize them about that.

[00:40:53] That is not have some empathy, you know, and they like to, you know, that she owes them somehow to participate in their freaking monetized podcast so that they can get more content.

[00:41:07] Just leave her alone. You know, and some of these group members are like looking into that case and like, oh, she didn't show up at this hearing.

[00:41:14] So what does that mean? Just shut up. You know, I mean, good God, leave the woman alone. Stop. And I'm yelling it. I'm yelling, but I'm not yelling at you guys because I know our audience is smart and doesn't do this crap.

[00:41:27] You know, but there is a wider world of true crime where that kind of behavior is considered fine because you're just asking questions.

[00:41:35] People need to stop and think a little bit that human beings are at the center, but I don't think that's enough because I think people are able to turn off their empathy pretty fast.

[00:41:45] I think the key thing is remembering like put yourself in the situation, put yourself in that role and then wonder why might I miss something?

[00:41:58] Maybe I had a health issue. Maybe I had to do something and then wonder if I saw a bunch of dumbasses in the comments saying, oh, this and that.

[00:42:09] And here's my conclusion. How would I feel? Like that's what people need to be thinking about because I don't think just saying that there's human beings at the center because people just use the victim then to justify anything.

[00:42:21] We were after answers for the victims and it's like, yeah, but the survivors are also here and being affected by people's behavior.

[00:42:31] And I feel like creators need to be thinking about this especially so that when they create spaces, they can have moderation policies that are effective at rooting out that level of speculation.

[00:42:47] Because I think, again, I've said this before, speculation and true crime is not the enemy. In unsolved cases, you need to speculate. In cases that are ongoing, you need to speculate. In trials to basically consider both sides, perhaps you need to speculate. All of that's fine.

[00:43:03] But when it gets into the level of like, this woman must be covering stuff up because she doesn't agree with our assessment of who must be the guilty part. No, that's not helpful. It's not necessary. I don't like it. And it's bad.

[00:43:19] But yeah, check out this article if you want to. We only went into a little bit of the story. Lot more detail in the article itself and Anya, I'm sure Anya is going to be doing the notes for this episode and I'm sure she will include the link.

[00:43:35] Oh yes, yes I will. I wouldn't encourage anyone who cares about true crime. It doesn't need to be this way. It doesn't need to be exploitative, in my opinion. It doesn't.

[00:43:44] At a certain level, you can have all sorts of arguments about where the line is or what's what. But I think treating victims' families with respect is important and creators who are doing this need to establish clear boundaries,

[00:44:03] communicate what they intend to do, how they operate and then live up to that. So you're not surprising family members and you're certainly not betraying their trust. It's always very interesting to me in some of the cases we've covered how quickly things can go from people saying,

[00:44:22] oh I have so much empathy for the family members. Oh, the family member changed their story slightly and said something happened at 310 instead of 315. They must be guilty. Or no, even worse. They don't like my theory so what are they covering up?

[00:44:37] Because my theory is so powerful and extraordinary that the only explanation, I mean I can't be wrong. That's not possible. I'm a genius. I cannot be wrong. They must be participating in a massive cover-up of their own relatives homicide.

[00:44:56] It's like wow. I mean fragile egos to the max in some of these situations. And the families have to deal with that and they shouldn't have to. And it was very generous, Evania, just to give people a clip they can take out of context later.

[00:45:12] She announces that she's a genius and can't be wrong. And I think on that note now that she's done that, I think it's time to wrap up. Thank you so much for listening and we will see you soon. Thanks so much for listening to The Murder Sheet.

[00:45:27] If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us at murdersheet at gmail.com. If you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities. If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com.

[00:45:53] If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www.buymeacoffee.com. We very much appreciate any support. Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee who composed the music for The Murder Sheet

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