The Cheat Sheet: Flip-Flops and Fights

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[00:02:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Today on the cheat sheet, we're going to be talking about several disturbing

[00:02:53] [SPEAKER_01]: cases including children who are the victims of homicide or potential

[00:02:58] [SPEAKER_01]: homicides as well as a child who's accused of perpetuating a homicide. And

[00:03:04] [SPEAKER_01]: in addition to that, a cold case that was recently solved and a

[00:03:08] [SPEAKER_01]: surprising stand your ground defense.

[00:03:12] [SPEAKER_01]: My name is Anya Cain. I'm a journalist.

[00:03:14] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

[00:03:17] [SPEAKER_00]: And this is the murder sheet.

[00:03:18] [SPEAKER_00]: We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep

[00:03:23] [SPEAKER_00]: dives into murder cases. We're the murder sheet.

[00:03:26] [SPEAKER_01]: And this is the cheat sheet. Flip flops and fights.

[00:04:15] [SPEAKER_01]: This initial case comes to us from WNCT and Robisonian. And this is a

[00:04:24] [SPEAKER_01]: listener recommendation. So thank you so much to this listener who wrote in

[00:04:28] [SPEAKER_01]: We really appreciate him for doing that.

[00:04:32] [SPEAKER_01]: And okay, so with this case, this goes all the way back to 1998, January 7th.

[00:04:39] [SPEAKER_01]: A five-year-old girl named Brittany Locklear was brought out by her mom,

[00:04:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Connie, to go to the school bus in Hope County, North Carolina.

[00:04:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Now at one point, Connie ran back into the house to use the restroom.

[00:04:53] [SPEAKER_01]: When she came out, Brittany was gone.

[00:04:55] [SPEAKER_01]: She assumed she was picked up by the bus.

[00:04:57] [SPEAKER_01]: But she went to the school to check.

[00:05:01] [SPEAKER_01]: And the school told her that Brittany had never gotten on the bus.

[00:05:05] [SPEAKER_01]: She was not at school. So Connie called 911.

[00:05:08] [SPEAKER_01]: By that time, other witnesses had as well because they had seen a man

[00:05:14] [SPEAKER_01]: slam the brakes on his truck right outside of the Locklear home,

[00:05:18] [SPEAKER_01]: grab Brittany, and then drove away with her.

[00:05:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Some initial reports said this was a white man.

[00:05:24] [SPEAKER_01]: But very few details have since emerged about the truck or the description of the man.

[00:05:29] [SPEAKER_01]: So it's not really clear what he looked like or what the truck looked like.

[00:05:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Unfortunately, the next day, Brittany's body was found.

[00:05:40] [SPEAKER_01]: She had been drowned in a ditch.

[00:05:41] [SPEAKER_01]: She had been raped.

[00:05:43] [SPEAKER_01]: And this crime has remained unsolved ever since.

[00:05:47] [SPEAKER_01]: At one time, her step-grandfather, a man named James Stevens,

[00:05:51] [SPEAKER_01]: was looked at very hard.

[00:05:53] [SPEAKER_01]: A man named Keith Douglas Laundrie.

[00:05:57] [SPEAKER_01]: He was a firefighter.

[00:05:58] [SPEAKER_01]: He was arrested on bank robbery.

[00:06:00] [SPEAKER_01]: And in his fire station locker, for whatever reason, he had a picture of Brittany.

[00:06:07] [SPEAKER_01]: But he was cleared when his DNA didn't match that on Brittany's body.

[00:06:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Now, as of as late as 2015, the Sheriff's Office there said they have enough DNA to

[00:06:18] [SPEAKER_01]: make a genetic match.

[00:06:19] [SPEAKER_01]: But still, there are no arrests, no closure in this case.

[00:06:23] [SPEAKER_01]: And unfortunately, this is yet another instance of a young Native American girl

[00:06:29] [SPEAKER_01]: being murdered without any accountability for her killer.

[00:06:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Brittany was a member of the Lumbee tribe.

[00:06:37] [SPEAKER_01]: So this is a very sad and upsetting case.

[00:06:40] [SPEAKER_01]: And it just baffles me that there could be such good DNA as to elicit some sort of,

[00:06:47] [SPEAKER_01]: genetic match without there being a conclusion.

[00:06:50] [SPEAKER_01]: So I don't know.

[00:06:51] [SPEAKER_01]: It's always possible with the stuff that the DNA turns out to be, you know,

[00:06:56] [SPEAKER_01]: incorrect or they think they have something but they don't.

[00:06:58] [SPEAKER_01]: But I would be very curious about what resources are currently being put toward this case.

[00:07:03] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's a great question.

[00:07:05] [SPEAKER_00]: It's a very disturbing case.

[00:07:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Our hearts go out to the family.

[00:07:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[00:07:12] [SPEAKER_01]: And then another case out of Michigan, Port Huron specifically, is a little bit more recent

[00:07:19] [SPEAKER_01]: but also unfortunately involves the death of a child.

[00:07:22] [SPEAKER_01]: This is from the San Alac Broadcasting Company.

[00:07:25] [SPEAKER_01]: So on February 19th, 2018, a little boy, a three-year-old named Matthew Mason

[00:07:31] [SPEAKER_01]: in Port Huron, Michigan, babysitters show up to take care of him.

[00:07:36] [SPEAKER_01]: And they find him severely injured in his bedroom.

[00:07:39] [SPEAKER_01]: His mother, Amanda Mason, and her then boyfriend, Maurice Huell,

[00:07:43] [SPEAKER_01]: could not account for those injuries.

[00:07:46] [SPEAKER_01]: And ever since his grandparents, Amy and David Mason, have advocated for him

[00:07:51] [SPEAKER_01]: and, you know, he died as a result of those injuries,

[00:07:54] [SPEAKER_01]: they believe that that was the result of child abuse.

[00:07:57] [SPEAKER_01]: They believe witnesses can speak to the abuse he was facing in that household

[00:08:01] [SPEAKER_01]: and they want accountability.

[00:08:03] [SPEAKER_01]: And unfortunately, this is something that their family is not a stranger to.

[00:08:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Amanda's brother, Andrew, and his wife, Hillary, were convicted of killing

[00:08:11] [SPEAKER_01]: their five-year-old daughter, Mackenzie Mason, in May 2015,

[00:08:15] [SPEAKER_01]: and abusing their other daughter.

[00:08:17] [SPEAKER_01]: So it's very upsetting that this may have happened twice in this family.

[00:08:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Recently, the Masons had a rally, but you know, to kind of demand justice,

[00:08:26] [SPEAKER_01]: but there have not been any charges yet out of Michigan's St. Clair County.

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[00:10:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, shall we move on to another case involving a shooting?

[00:10:16] [SPEAKER_00]: This is out of Louisiana.

[00:10:19] [SPEAKER_00]: This is a story where an 11-year-old boy

[00:10:24] [SPEAKER_00]: is inside a house with people he's related to.

[00:10:29] [SPEAKER_00]: It's unclear what exactly the family relationship here is,

[00:10:34] [SPEAKER_00]: but he's in this house with an 82-year-old man named Joel Cornelius Senior

[00:10:40] [SPEAKER_00]: and a 31-year-old Keisha Miles.

[00:10:45] [SPEAKER_00]: And apparently there was some sort of argument that erupted over video game charges.

[00:10:55] [SPEAKER_00]: And this argument ended in tragedy when the 11-year-old boy

[00:11:00] [SPEAKER_00]: murdered the other two people with guns, multiple gunshot wounds.

[00:11:08] [SPEAKER_00]: And he apparently has made a confession of what happened to authorities.

[00:11:18] [SPEAKER_00]: And according to the person who heard the confession,

[00:11:24] [SPEAKER_00]: the boy did not seem to have any remorse or guilt.

[00:11:30] [SPEAKER_00]: This again is what the police chief says,

[00:11:34] [SPEAKER_00]: the police chief Jared MacGyver said there was no remorse whatsoever.

[00:11:40] [SPEAKER_00]: And so that's also especially disturbing.

[00:11:43] [SPEAKER_00]: And when the crime is done by someone so young who doesn't show remorse,

[00:11:48] [SPEAKER_00]: you have to wonder, does he just not realize and appreciate the enormity of taking a human life?

[00:11:58] [SPEAKER_00]: There's no good reason really to take a human life or at least very few good ones

[00:12:03] [SPEAKER_00]: outside of self-defense, which we'll get to later.

[00:12:06] [SPEAKER_00]: But certainly taking a human life or two human lives over something as silly

[00:12:12] [SPEAKER_00]: as video game charges is just a travesty.

[00:12:18] [SPEAKER_01]: TITLE CARD

[00:12:18] [SPEAKER_01]: What do you think in terms of a kid that young, what kind of culpability they have versus

[00:12:25] [SPEAKER_01]: anything else around like parents or access to guns, things like that?

[00:12:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Obviously an 11-year-old should not have access to firearms.

[00:12:37] [SPEAKER_00]: Certainly not access to them unsupervised.

[00:12:41] [SPEAKER_00]: So that is very, very disturbing.

[00:12:45] [SPEAKER_00]: And a lot of it goes down to does the child realize what it means when you shoot someone

[00:12:52] [SPEAKER_00]: in real life as opposed to shooting them in a video game?

[00:12:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Is there a level of understanding there?

[00:13:03] [SPEAKER_00]: Obviously murder is just as final no matter who does it.

[00:13:08] [SPEAKER_00]: But you also when it's a child, you wonder, you don't want to give up on an 11-year-old.

[00:13:16] [SPEAKER_00]: So you have to wonder is there anything that can be done to make this child

[00:13:23] [SPEAKER_00]: someone who could potentially contribute to society once again?

[00:13:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Right. Yeah, it's really scary.

[00:13:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Whenever people sort of act like, you know, oh my gosh, how could someone do something so

[00:13:38] [SPEAKER_01]: heinous? They're so young.

[00:13:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Young people, that would be the people who would be doing the heinous things in the first place

[00:13:44] [SPEAKER_01]: because they're not fully developed and they're emotional and irrational.

[00:13:49] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that's not all young people but you're growing up.

[00:13:53] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, you're not a fully formed adult and certainly at 11.

[00:13:56] [SPEAKER_01]: But you know, it doesn't necessarily mean that you're not going to do something really

[00:14:01] [SPEAKER_01]: horrific, right?

[00:14:02] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean like I never understand that argument when people are talking about like,

[00:14:04] [SPEAKER_01]: they're only a teenager.

[00:14:05] [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, yeah, that's kind of typically when people are committing really bad crimes.

[00:14:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Eleven is really young though.

[00:14:14] [SPEAKER_00]: Eleven is really young.

[00:14:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. So it's surprising.

[00:14:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Does it remind you at all?

[00:14:20] [SPEAKER_00]: We interviewed the author of a book on about a case up in northern Indiana where

[00:14:24] [SPEAKER_00]: a young person killed a Bible study teacher if I remember correctly.

[00:14:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah, no, yeah.

[00:14:30] [SPEAKER_01]: 70 times 7 by Alex Marr.

[00:14:32] [SPEAKER_01]: No, it doesn't.

[00:14:33] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to say because in that situation, it was a young woman who murdered.

[00:14:42] [SPEAKER_01]: So a young lady named Ruth Pelkey was a Bible teacher and then 15-year-old

[00:14:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Paula Cooper murdered her with a group of girls.

[00:14:51] [SPEAKER_01]: But they were like preying on an elderly woman that they wanted to rob.

[00:14:55] [SPEAKER_01]: In this situation, it sounds more like a retaliation against this kid's own

[00:15:00] [SPEAKER_01]: family members close circle because of issues around a video game.

[00:15:06] [SPEAKER_01]: So I think it's a little bit different, but it certainly raises the same kind of questions of

[00:15:11] [SPEAKER_01]: at what age are you responsible for your actions to the same degree as an adult would be?

[00:15:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Do you understand what you're doing?

[00:15:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Why are you doing this?

[00:15:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Why would such a young person resort to such violence?

[00:15:22] [SPEAKER_01]: So it raises similar questions.

[00:15:24] [SPEAKER_01]: It just seems a little bit different if it sounds like these are members of his own family potentially.

[00:15:30] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:15:31] [SPEAKER_00]: It's unclear how exactly they were related, but they were related.

[00:15:38] [SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.

[00:15:40] [SPEAKER_01]: So are you ready to talk about a case out of Indiana?

[00:15:44] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not ready, but I bet you are.

[00:15:46] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm definitely ready.

[00:15:48] [SPEAKER_01]: So her source for this is the Indianapolis Star

[00:15:50] [SPEAKER_01]: and also a probable cause affidavit.

[00:15:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I should quickly mention that my source for that was The Guardian.

[00:15:56] [SPEAKER_01]: The Guardian.

[00:15:57] [SPEAKER_01]: There you go.

[00:15:57] [SPEAKER_01]: So this is the case of 19-year-old Carmen Van Huss.

[00:16:02] [SPEAKER_01]: This was a young lady who's working as a waitress in Pizza Hut

[00:16:05] [SPEAKER_01]: and living in a Turtle Creek North apartment in Indianapolis.

[00:16:09] [SPEAKER_01]: So March 22, 1993, a neighbor hears her and a man talking and laughing in her apartment

[00:16:15] [SPEAKER_01]: around 1130 p.m. Early the next morning, like a few hours later,

[00:16:20] [SPEAKER_01]: they hear her yelling, get off me, get off me, in a commotion.

[00:16:23] [SPEAKER_01]: No one calls the police.

[00:16:26] [SPEAKER_01]: So then after she doesn't show up to work,

[00:16:29] [SPEAKER_01]: work calls her father who comes in and unfortunately discovers her brutally murdered

[00:16:34] [SPEAKER_01]: and Marion County Sheriff's deputies are dispatched.

[00:16:37] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to read from the probable cause affidavit

[00:16:39] [SPEAKER_01]: and this is going to get into some disturbing elements of how she was murdered.

[00:16:43] [SPEAKER_01]: So just keep that in mind and skip ahead about a minute if you want to.

[00:16:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Carmen Van Huss was found nude, quote,

[00:16:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Carmen Van Huss was found nude on the floor lying in a supine position in her small studio apartment.

[00:16:56] [SPEAKER_01]: There were obvious signs of a struggle, including a knocked over table,

[00:16:59] [SPEAKER_01]: clothing thrown on the floor, a large pooling of blood near the victim's head,

[00:17:02] [SPEAKER_01]: and blood splatter around the victim's body.

[00:17:05] [SPEAKER_01]: The victim appeared to have multiple puncture wounds to her head, face, and body.

[00:17:09] [SPEAKER_01]: The assault appeared to have taken place in the living room area of the apartment

[00:17:12] [SPEAKER_01]: and it appeared that the suspect went into the kitchen possibly to wash himself.

[00:17:15] [SPEAKER_01]: There was a trash can located in the kitchen that contained a white paper bag, item 15,

[00:17:21] [SPEAKER_01]: with suspected blood.

[00:17:22] [SPEAKER_01]: The victim was missing her left earring and it appeared to have been torn from her ear, end quote.

[00:17:28] [SPEAKER_01]: So Marion County Sheriff's Department Detective Sergeant David Wilkes took over initially.

[00:17:35] [SPEAKER_01]: No conclusion.

[00:17:37] [SPEAKER_01]: In 2000, Marion County Sheriff's Department cold case investigator Lieutenant Steven Gibbs took over

[00:17:43] [SPEAKER_01]: but over time it just kind of kept going through different detectives and different phases.

[00:17:50] [SPEAKER_01]: But police were able to clear some people so a man known as R.B. was Carmen's boyfriend at

[00:17:55] [SPEAKER_01]: the time. He was in Arizona at the time of the murders and DNA also cleared him.

[00:18:01] [SPEAKER_01]: DNA cleared an ex-boyfriend named J.F. who had had an intimate relationship with Carmen

[00:18:05] [SPEAKER_01]: and who had been upset with her because of her new boyfriend.

[00:18:08] [SPEAKER_01]: His DNA cleared him.

[00:18:10] [SPEAKER_01]: A man known by the initials P.P. had also been intimate with her in the past and she

[00:18:16] [SPEAKER_01]: had called police on him because he'd stolen her car.

[00:18:18] [SPEAKER_01]: He apparently threatened her but he was eliminated as a suspect by DNA in 2013

[00:18:24] [SPEAKER_01]: as was ultimately a man living across the hall known as J.L.

[00:18:30] [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm mentioning all this because notice how many people came up.

[00:18:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Notice that some of these guys sounded like they could be problems.

[00:18:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Somebody who was mad that she was dating someone else now.

[00:18:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Somebody that had threatened her and stolen her car in the past.

[00:18:45] [SPEAKER_01]: So just because someone has some sort of negative interaction with a victim

[00:18:49] [SPEAKER_01]: doesn't make them guilty of murder and it's good that police went to each of

[00:18:54] [SPEAKER_01]: these individuals and crossed them off but police were even more aggressive than that.

[00:19:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Carmen was known to hang out with a group of kids known as the Bridge Kids

[00:19:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Up and Broad Ripple and they dug into that friend group.

[00:19:09] [SPEAKER_01]: They got 40 DNA samples, cleared all of them and eventually the case went to

[00:19:16] [SPEAKER_01]: IMPD cold case detective Sergeant James Ellison along with IMPD Sergeant William Carter

[00:19:22] [SPEAKER_01]: and Marion County Forensic Services Agency forensic scientist Shelly Crispin.

[00:19:28] [SPEAKER_01]: So they were kind of the main people on it for a while.

[00:19:30] [SPEAKER_01]: So in 2018 a DNA sample was able to be taken from the bag found in a trash can and that was taken by Crispin

[00:19:38] [SPEAKER_01]: and she sent it to Parabon Nano Labs.

[00:19:42] [SPEAKER_01]: In 2023 then-Captain William Carter got word from Parabon that it found a user

[00:19:48] [SPEAKER_01]: that might be related to the unidentified person of interest whose full DNA profile was on that bag.

[00:19:54] [SPEAKER_01]: And Mira Patel, an IMPD nuisance abatement analyst dug into the social media of this user

[00:20:01] [SPEAKER_01]: and they found that her relative might be a man named Dana Shepard who turned out to have

[00:20:09] [SPEAKER_01]: lived on Harcourt Road at the time. His apartment area was connected to Carmen's

[00:20:14] [SPEAKER_01]: in this like shared common area which also had a laundry room and he had been previously

[00:20:21] [SPEAKER_01]: arrested in Speedway, Indiana in 1992 for public intoxication and then had a 1996 arrest for battery

[00:20:27] [SPEAKER_01]: in Marion County. So an investigator named Michael Condon took over after Ellison retired,

[00:20:33] [SPEAKER_01]: got a search warrant for a buckle swab for Shepard on February 17th, 2024 and then headed

[00:20:41] [SPEAKER_01]: down with a warrant from Boone County, Missouri where Shepard currently was. So I'm

[00:20:50] [SPEAKER_01]: February 15th, 2024 IMPD cold case homicide Detective Charles Benner and I drove to

[00:20:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Columbia, Missouri and obtained a certified warrant from the Boone County Court. After

[00:21:00] [SPEAKER_01]: receiving the warrant we went with Boone County Sheriff's Detective Scott Skinner.

[00:21:04] [SPEAKER_01]: He conducted research and found that Dana Shepard was employed at the University of Missouri.

[00:21:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Detective Skinner contacted the University of Missouri Police Department and they were able

[00:21:12] [SPEAKER_01]: to confirm that Dana Shepard was currently working on campus. Dana Shepard was located

[00:21:16] [SPEAKER_01]: and brought into the lobby of the building. Detective Skinner provided him a copy of the

[00:21:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Missouri Buckle Warrant. Dana Shepard was visibly shaking as he read the warrant. He stated that

[00:21:25] [SPEAKER_01]: he had not done anything for a long time and kept asking if this warrant was from Missouri.

[00:21:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Shepard was told that he needed to be eliminated as a suspect in an assault case.

[00:21:33] [SPEAKER_01]: After a few minutes Detective Skinner obtained a buckle swab sample from Dana Shepard and

[00:21:38] [SPEAKER_01]: obtained a full set of fingerprints. So later on they were able to match that DNA to the

[00:21:44] [SPEAKER_01]: bag and the partial profile. And so this 52 year old man living in Columbia, Missouri was

[00:21:52] [SPEAKER_01]: arrested and charged with one count of rape with deadly force and two counts of murder.

[00:21:57] [SPEAKER_01]: So this is a sign that no matter how long you get away with something it's not necessarily

[00:22:04] [SPEAKER_01]: going to stay that way because DNA is getting better and better by the day.

[00:22:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes there's no such thing as the perfect crime anymore.

[00:22:12] [SPEAKER_01]: No one can hide. At least one would hope. In cases with DNA and things like this there's a

[00:22:18] [SPEAKER_01]: lot of hope for families and that makes me happy because these people should be scared.

[00:22:21] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah I never get tired of these stories where justice is brought forth decades later.

[00:22:27] [SPEAKER_01]: And like this guy's shaking as he's reading it. It's like how do you think

[00:22:30] [SPEAKER_01]: how do you think your victim felt when you were raping and killing her?

[00:22:34] [SPEAKER_01]: You know I mean I don't I don't have sympathy. These people you know people who are these

[00:22:40] [SPEAKER_01]: rapists murderers who you know because they're often the ones that get caught because they

[00:22:44] [SPEAKER_01]: leave such great DNA you know through the rape unfortunately. And it's a situation where it's

[00:22:50] [SPEAKER_01]: like you know I'm sure so many of them are just up at night now you know waiting for

[00:22:56] [SPEAKER_01]: that knock on the door waiting for someone to show up at their work because they have to know

[00:23:01] [SPEAKER_01]: that you know it's just a matter of time in some of these cases. But I know Carmen's

[00:23:09] [SPEAKER_01]: family I don't think her father is still living so he didn't get to live to see this but I know

[00:23:13] [SPEAKER_01]: her her siblings have talked about how grateful they are with this and I'm just very happy for

[00:23:18] [SPEAKER_01]: them that they've been able to see some answers. There's no real thing like closure

[00:23:24] [SPEAKER_01]: for these families because they still missed out on Carmen being alive with them for this

[00:23:29] [SPEAKER_01]: whole time. But they can at least see who's being held accountable for what you know.

[00:23:35] [SPEAKER_00]: And someone is being held accountable.

[00:23:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah and that's what you want to see.

[00:23:40] [SPEAKER_00]: So I want to move on to a case in Florida. My source for this was the

[00:23:44] [SPEAKER_00]: Herald Tribune and before-

[00:23:47] [SPEAKER_01]: He said Florida?

[00:23:48] [SPEAKER_00]: Florida.

[00:23:48] [SPEAKER_00]: Got it.

[00:23:49] [SPEAKER_00]: And my source for this is the Herald Tribune. Before I get into this I mentioned earlier

[00:23:57] [SPEAKER_00]: something about self-defense and I'm just curious Anya as an educated layperson

[00:24:04] [SPEAKER_00]: what do you think the standard should be for self-defense? And by this I mean

[00:24:08] [SPEAKER_00]: to kill someone or seriously injure them and be able to get away with it for lack of a better

[00:24:15] [SPEAKER_00]: word because you're able to use the self-defense defense.

[00:24:18] [SPEAKER_01]: I think reasonable fear of severe bodily injury or death should be the standard.

[00:24:29] [SPEAKER_01]: If someone is you know about to hit me in the face with a hammer you know like I

[00:24:35] [SPEAKER_01]: my door and someone does that I think I should be allowed to defend myself.

[00:24:39] [SPEAKER_01]: If it's something where it's like some guys just like rang my doorbell because they got

[00:24:44] [SPEAKER_01]: to the wrong house you know even if I'm scared that doesn't justify shooting them.

[00:24:48] [SPEAKER_00]: Well I like that you said reasonable fear.

[00:24:50] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[00:24:50] [SPEAKER_00]: Because a lot of people have unreasonable fears.

[00:24:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes and that's not anybody else's problem.

[00:24:56] [SPEAKER_01]: That's basically what I'm saying is that if someone is swinging a hammer at my face the

[00:25:02] [SPEAKER_01]: second I open a door I have a reasonable fear of being severely injured and or killed by that person.

[00:25:08] [SPEAKER_01]: So defending myself accordingly would be reasonable and my fear is reasonable because

[00:25:12] [SPEAKER_01]: getting hit in the face with a hammer would really hurt and could knock me out and all

[00:25:15] [SPEAKER_01]: this stuff. But if some guy just rang the doorbell and I don't recognize him he could

[00:25:22] [SPEAKER_01]: just be at the wrong house he could be you know some sort of door-to-door salesman just

[00:25:28] [SPEAKER_01]: because I'm scared or I'm like oh who's this guy.

[00:25:31] [SPEAKER_01]: My paranoia doesn't justify me harming this man in so-called self-defense.

[00:25:36] [SPEAKER_00]: Right okay so I'm now with that said I'd like to tell you how Florida how they set

[00:25:42] [SPEAKER_00]: the standard. Florida law says that quote a person is justified in using or threatening to

[00:25:49] [SPEAKER_00]: use deadly force if he or she reasonably believes that using or threatening to use such

[00:25:57] [SPEAKER_00]: force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself

[00:26:05] [SPEAKER_00]: or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony.

[00:26:12] [SPEAKER_00]: So that's Florida's standard pretty similar to what you said and I'm mentioning that here

[00:26:18] [SPEAKER_00]: because this is a case where a person the person killed somebody and they wanted to use

[00:26:24] [SPEAKER_00]: the claim of self-defense and so what a judge has to do in that situation is try to evaluate

[00:26:32] [SPEAKER_00]: what happened and then look at what the legal standard is to determine whether or not it

[00:26:40] [SPEAKER_00]: meets that standard which is the standard I just read. So I want to tell you about the

[00:26:46] [SPEAKER_00]: facts in this case. The person involved is a woman named Courtney Wadek a 45 year old

[00:26:55] [SPEAKER_00]: woman who was arrested back in July of 2023 following a shooting at her home. She shot and

[00:27:03] [SPEAKER_00]: killed a woman who was staying at her home at the time and according to her what happened is

[00:27:13] [SPEAKER_00]: she goes home and she sees the victim and the victim's fiance and earlier apparently there had

[00:27:24] [SPEAKER_00]: been some sort of conflict between them and so now that conflict was overtaxed and now it's an

[00:27:43] [SPEAKER_00]: Wadek in the face. The victim's friend kind of joins in they they choke Wadek they really

[00:27:54] [SPEAKER_00]: put her in fear and so at that point she is able to escape and go to her bedroom.

[00:28:03] [SPEAKER_00]: So at that point the initial conflict the initial altercation whatever word you want to use

[00:28:11] [SPEAKER_00]: is over and I think it's also worth noting that once a dangerous situation ends you can't then pull

[00:28:21] [SPEAKER_00]: it out and then use that as a self-defense card. So in other words if Anya talked about

[00:28:28] [SPEAKER_00]: a person coming to her door with a hammer and perhaps threatening to kill her let's say she

[00:28:33] [SPEAKER_00]: just slams the door in his face and then the next day she sees that same person

[00:28:40] [SPEAKER_00]: at Wendy's and he doesn't have a hammer. If she kills him then she can't say well I killed him

[00:28:44] [SPEAKER_00]: because of what he did yesterday. Does that make sense? Yes it has to be within that one incident.

[00:28:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah it can't be like oh that guy got away from me last time but you know if I see him again

[00:28:53] [SPEAKER_00]: it's immediate yeah no yeah that makes sense. So there's this altercation which ends when she

[00:29:01] [SPEAKER_00]: goes to Miss Wadek goes to her bedroom so then she leaves her bedroom but when she's in

[00:29:08] [SPEAKER_00]: her bedroom she arms herself arms herself with a gun. She leaves her bedroom she says she's going

[00:29:13] [SPEAKER_00]: to look for some shoes that she can use to then leave leave the home. She says before

[00:29:22] [SPEAKER_00]: that happens there is another sort of conflict and apparently the person she ended up shooting

[00:29:31] [SPEAKER_00]: may have hit Miss Wadek with a flip-flop and Miss Wadek then pulls out her weapon and begins

[00:29:40] [SPEAKER_00]: firing and ends up fatally wounding the the the victim. So Miss Wadek's attorney says

[00:29:49] [SPEAKER_00]: when this fits the standard the when the victim was hitting her with the flip-flop

[00:29:56] [SPEAKER_00]: was committing aggravated battery and so therefore that counts as a forcible felony

[00:30:02] [SPEAKER_00]: which Miss Wadek was trying to stop the commission of when she fired the weapon

[00:30:08] [SPEAKER_00]: and so therefore it meets the statute. And so I'm just curious Anya what do you think of

[00:30:14] [SPEAKER_01]: that argument? I think that's really weak personally. I mean I don't know a flip-flop

[00:30:23] [SPEAKER_01]: like that's kind of I mean maybe I shouldn't get hung up on that but that's kind of what I go back

[00:30:27] [SPEAKER_00]: to. Well you won't be surprised the judge agreed with you. Yes there you go. Throughout

[00:30:32] [SPEAKER_01]: throughout the self-defense. That like I don't know I'm sympathetic to self-defense arguments

[00:30:39] [SPEAKER_01]: in some cases because I think sometimes it is you might be find yourself in a kill or be

[00:30:44] [SPEAKER_01]: killed situation and you want the law to be reflective of that but this does not sound

[00:30:50] [SPEAKER_01]: like that to me. I have a hard time with that and you know it's like like you can have an

[00:30:57] [SPEAKER_01]: uncomfortable bad experience or whatever someone throws a flip-flop at you I'm not saying that's

[00:31:01] [SPEAKER_01]: okay but the reaction shouldn't be let me kill this person. When you take a person's life

[00:31:09] [SPEAKER_00]: you're quite literally taking everything they have everything they can possibly have in the

[00:31:13] [SPEAKER_00]: future you're taking it away from them. Yes. And in order to do that and for that to be

[00:31:19] [SPEAKER_00]: you should have to meet a pretty high standard and Ms. Weida came nowhere near that so I think

[00:31:27] [SPEAKER_00]: it's interesting to talk about self-defense and what does count as self-defense and what doesn't

[00:31:32] [SPEAKER_00]: count as self-defense. I think we can all agree on things that are obviously self-defense and

[00:31:37] [SPEAKER_00]: things that are not obviously self-defense but I find it interesting to kind of look at things

[00:31:43] [SPEAKER_00]: that are somewhere in the middle where if you can squint you know maybe so I thought this

[00:31:49] [SPEAKER_01]: was an interesting case. I think it was too and I think it's good to like kind of keep an eye on

[00:31:55] [SPEAKER_01]: like where the line is because I think a lot of people feel like well if I'm scared then that's

[00:32:00] [SPEAKER_01]: reasonable no it's like you have to take your own feelings your own anger or emotions out of

[00:32:10] [SPEAKER_01]: it and act accordingly I think because I think if you really were like looking at it from a more

[00:32:18] [SPEAKER_01]: dispassionate zone you would certainly not think that some sort of flip-flop would constitute a

[00:32:23] [SPEAKER_01]: some lethal attack that you were staving off or reacting to it's just ridiculous. Also people

[00:32:29] [SPEAKER_01]: like in this situation where they end up killing someone it's like you could just

[00:32:32] [SPEAKER_01]: you know maybe just leave or don't escalate you don't you know perhaps if if the flip

[00:32:40] [SPEAKER_01]: flop had been the only thing that happened that day perhaps then that person would have

[00:32:44] [SPEAKER_01]: been in trouble and you know could have filed some I don't know like minor assault thing I

[00:32:49] [SPEAKER_01]: don't know I just it's like when people react in such anger or with such fear it's like they

[00:32:55] [SPEAKER_01]: just end up ruining their own lives. Well the defense attorney took his shot. Well no they

[00:33:01] [SPEAKER_01]: gotta I mean that's his job or that's their job so I mean that's not I'm not certainly

[00:33:06] [SPEAKER_01]: not faulting the defense attorney for doing their jobs it's just it's not a strong argument

[00:33:10] [SPEAKER_01]: this specific instance. So we're gonna wrap up today are you gonna let me try to give you a

[00:33:17] [SPEAKER_01]: nice little transition here so uh are you going to uh yeah yeah let's all sit back and enjoy

[00:33:25] [SPEAKER_01]: a classic transition transition into speaking about shirts or Kendallville. Yeah so you

[00:33:33] [SPEAKER_00]: bungled that I bungled it you bungled so we're very excited here because we are on the

[00:33:41] [SPEAKER_00]: verge of going to Kendallville well not only will we be eating fish sandwiches but we will also be

[00:33:48] [SPEAKER_00]: doing a live podcast recording where a highly select audience is going to be present to hear

[00:33:58] [SPEAKER_00]: us talk about a Kendallville case and then ask questions afterwards. This highly select

[00:34:02] [SPEAKER_00]: audience is basically anyone kind enough to be willing to go to this theater and

[00:34:10] [SPEAKER_00]: uh proffer a $10 ticket if a person wanted to get one of these $10 tickets on you where would

[00:34:14] [SPEAKER_01]: they go what would they do? Uh we'll go to our show notes because we have a link to the page

[00:34:19] [SPEAKER_01]: where you can actually purchase tickets and just click that again our show notes they should have

[00:34:26] [SPEAKER_01]: one um and buy one they're only like $10. Only like $10. Pretty good deal to see us

[00:34:35] [SPEAKER_01]: and the money's not going to us it's going to uh the fine folks at the uh the Kendallville

[00:34:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Center at the uh. Pretty good deal to see us as Anya says yeah because she charges me a lot

[00:34:46] [SPEAKER_01]: more than that. What that sounds that sounds really suspicious Kevin I don't think you

[00:34:51] [SPEAKER_01]: thought through the implications of that statement

[00:34:57] [SPEAKER_01]: but yeah it's going to be really it's going to be really fun we're really excited we've never

[00:35:01] [SPEAKER_00]: done a live podcast before. We've we've we've the closest we've come we've come we've done a

[00:35:06] [SPEAKER_00]: couple of events at libraries I think we recorded one thinking we'd put it on the podcast

[00:35:11] [SPEAKER_00]: because we didn't really know how to record but we know how to record now we think.

[00:35:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Don't say that you're undermining confidence in what we're going to do here

[00:35:25] [SPEAKER_00]: but yeah you come and you can be a part of the podcast you can ask a question which would be on

[00:35:29] [SPEAKER_00]: the podcast if you say the secret word Anya will respect you there's no secret word to earn my

[00:35:36] [SPEAKER_00]: respect it's just a lifetime of actions. You can write a case suggestion and put it on the

[00:35:44] [SPEAKER_01]: card. What are the perks? There's going to be beer and wine there for people who

[00:35:50] [SPEAKER_01]: enjoy drinking we're not going to drink but we don't that's fine and it's like a nice time

[00:35:56] [SPEAKER_00]: it's like a nice you can drink and we can just stand there awkwardly. You can stand there

[00:35:59] [SPEAKER_01]: staring at you. You really know how to sell these things. Hey you're the one who was

[00:36:04] [SPEAKER_01]: acting like you set me up for failure with this one and and this is your this is your

[00:36:10] [SPEAKER_01]: rodeo so I don't even know why I'm talking right now go ahead razzle dazzle him.

[00:36:17] [SPEAKER_00]: You don't even have to razzle dazzle with this because it's going to be so much fun

[00:36:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Kindleville great community and it's going to be September 14th doors open at six shows from

[00:36:29] [SPEAKER_01]: seven to eight and I hasten add September 14th 2024 oh my gosh yeah of course it's 2024

[00:36:39] [SPEAKER_00]: who's who's doing that a year out well pardon me for respecting our listeners time

[00:36:46] [SPEAKER_00]: I assume they have lives that are very busy I just want them to know and also I I assume

[00:36:52] [SPEAKER_00]: the people in the far future will be listening to this and I don't want them to show up at

[00:36:58] [SPEAKER_00]: the wrong year oh my god or if they have like the time travel technology by then

[00:37:01] [SPEAKER_01]: where are they oh you think time travels travelers would have a time travel device

[00:37:06] [SPEAKER_01]: and they'd be like you know where I'm gonna go I'm gonna go hang out with Kevin and Anya

[00:37:09] [SPEAKER_00]: who would you go see do a live podcast if you had a time machine I don't know

[00:37:13] [SPEAKER_00]: the people at Jamestown and what was that what was that podcast called

[00:37:17] [SPEAKER_01]: they don't have a Jamestown podcast they didn't have podcasts they just had the angry

[00:37:24] [SPEAKER_01]: little pamphlets that they would write be like everything sucks in Virginia and then

[00:37:27] [SPEAKER_01]: the Virginia company would be like how dare you it's a whole thing they would have

[00:37:32] [SPEAKER_01]: actually probably been good at YouTube at Jamestown I feel like they would have been all like

[00:37:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Governor Ratcliffe doesn't have a real job it would have been like really oh my god I could

[00:37:40] [SPEAKER_01]: totally see this yeah John Smith would have been like such a YouTuber not even not even close

[00:37:45] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean he would have just been you know and then he probably would have gotten cancelled but

[00:37:50] [SPEAKER_00]: he'd come back so you have your little trip all planned all I have to do all I have

[00:37:57] [SPEAKER_00]: a faraway look in my eyes all I have to do is push the Jamestown button and then

[00:38:01] [SPEAKER_00]: put my feet up I'm thinking about who would be the best YouTuber also would be having with us

[00:38:08] [SPEAKER_00]: a small selection of our single t-shirt speaking of our single t-shirt it's not like we have ten

[00:38:14] [SPEAKER_01]: designs so we have one t-shirt show up earlier you're not gonna get one a small select

[00:38:21] [SPEAKER_01]: you guys are actually gonna have to fight for the single t-shirt we bring

[00:38:24] [SPEAKER_01]: unless they say the secret word oh the secret word is that the prize getting the one t-shirt

[00:38:29] [SPEAKER_01]: sorry if it doesn't fit I just kind of have to deal with it it's a great t-shirt and speaking

[00:38:36] [SPEAKER_00]: of which of course these tickets as we all these tickets these these t-shirts as we all know are

[00:38:42] [SPEAKER_00]: available for sale at murdersheetshop.com for a very reasonable price okay but I was thinking

[00:38:51] [SPEAKER_00]: we've been like limiting the market for these shirts because a week or so ago I came across

[00:39:01] [SPEAKER_00]: this bizarre YouTube video which I don't bother looking up I'm not even sure if it's still up

[00:39:07] [SPEAKER_00]: and when I saw it had very few views but it was they did like a deep dive into our

[00:39:15] [SPEAKER_00]: murder sheet logo where they're trying to find like hidden pictures in there they're like

[00:39:20] [SPEAKER_00]: using mirrors they're like folding things over and they saw what they claimed to be very disturbing

[00:39:27] [SPEAKER_00]: things in there that reveal all sorts of awful secrets about us like I think one of the

[00:39:32] [SPEAKER_00]: commenters pointed out you know Anya's initials are AIC and if those are then turned around

[00:39:38] [SPEAKER_00]: it's CIA oh they got me oh man so so these pardon my language these poor sons of bitches

[00:39:46] [SPEAKER_00]: they're trying to find hidden messages in our logo and they're using just the these low resolution

[00:39:55] [SPEAKER_00]: images made available on the internet and it seems as one does isn't that what a true

[00:39:59] [SPEAKER_00]: investigator does it seems to me if you really wanted to do a deep dive into all of the

[00:40:07] [SPEAKER_00]: mysteries which may or may not be hidden in this picture you need a really good image

[00:40:13] [SPEAKER_00]: and you can buy the logo reproduced very well on a t-shirt and if you buy this t-shirt also you

[00:40:23] [SPEAKER_00]: can like fold it over easily you do all your playing around with mirrors easily and do a much

[00:40:29] [SPEAKER_00]: better youtube video attacking us and have more fun because you're playing with a shirt

[00:40:35] [SPEAKER_00]: so this is a special message to all those who hate us

[00:40:40] [SPEAKER_00]: you we're selling this high quality reproduction of uh this image and it sounds like kevin would

[00:40:45] [SPEAKER_01]: actually be able to take you under his wing and give you like life coach lessons in order to

[00:40:49] [SPEAKER_00]: help you attack us better on the other hand if you say if you if you've heard about this

[00:40:55] [SPEAKER_00]: this video and you're like outraged and you say well i bet maybe there are secret messages

[00:41:02] [SPEAKER_00]: in this picture but i bet there are positive messages about the brotherhood of man you can

[00:41:07] [SPEAKER_00]: buy the shirt and maybe we start something like a murder sheet brand magnifying glass

[00:41:13] [SPEAKER_00]: and you can look at the image to try to find positive messages so see i'm trying to open up

[00:41:19] [SPEAKER_01]: the market the conspiracy theorists that's a bold move i mean just just between us

[00:41:26] [SPEAKER_00]: there's no secret messages in these pictures and just between us what i mentioned uh that

[00:41:32] [SPEAKER_00]: youtube video to the artist who did did the t-shirt logo he didn't find it all that amusing

[00:41:38] [SPEAKER_00]: then he just was like okay or like oh wow there was a bit of an undertone there didn't

[00:41:46] [SPEAKER_00]: find it amusing there's no reason why you can't buy the shirt and study it

[00:41:52] [SPEAKER_01]: are you with me on that i i i guess so this this has gone so far afield in a way that i

[00:41:58] [SPEAKER_01]: didn't think it was going that i don't even who who's the audience for this ad most of our

[00:42:04] [SPEAKER_01]: listeners like we have very few conspiracy theories theorists who actually listen to the

[00:42:08] [SPEAKER_00]: show if you go on the internet there are people who hate listen to us okay and so this is for

[00:42:14] [SPEAKER_00]: them and if you hate listen to us i'll tell you what would really annoy me would be if you

[00:42:19] [SPEAKER_00]: listen to every single episode deleted it deleted every episode from your computer and then

[00:42:26] [SPEAKER_00]: downloaded them again just the more times you listen it's a show it's a sign of disrespect

[00:42:31] [SPEAKER_00]: to us personally oh i hate that awful that would really put me in my place

[00:42:41] [SPEAKER_00]: and this video also pointed out that ania used to have i never thought about that cia might

[00:42:46] [SPEAKER_00]: be so aic because yeah if you if you are a member of the cia you're obligated to use

[00:42:53] [SPEAKER_01]: those initials in your name your parents have to get ahead of the ball and make sure that

[00:42:57] [SPEAKER_01]: those initials otherwise you're not allowed in that this actually a very little known fact about

[00:43:01] [SPEAKER_00]: the cia they also pointed out that ania used to have a post office box in a town where there's

[00:43:08] [SPEAKER_01]: a cia training center come say that we're gonna have to edit that out i'm kidding he looks so

[00:43:16] [SPEAKER_00]: freaked out for a second because ania ania went to college at william and mary which is

[00:43:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Williamsburg virginia so she had a camp perry baby so she had a p.o box in there yeah not

[00:43:28] [SPEAKER_01]: because i'm in the cia hey like i don't know why people are asking those questions but um

[00:43:32] [SPEAKER_01]: you know just i'm living my life here if if we were in the cia why would we so is it just

[00:43:39] [SPEAKER_01]: me or you am i handle am i your handler or like what that sounds dirty oh god i didn't

[00:43:44] [SPEAKER_00]: mean it like that i just jesus i let's keep our private life private you're such a dirty

[00:43:52] [SPEAKER_01]: mind i don't i don't even know i don't even know i i'm shocked i you are supposed to be the adult

[00:44:00] [SPEAKER_01]: in the room when it comes to these ads so the fact that you went on some you know deeply

[00:44:05] [SPEAKER_01]: disturbed persons youtube and said hey you know what this disturbed rambling reminds me of

[00:44:12] [SPEAKER_01]: selling our t-shirts let me let me craft a whole ad campaign around this kevin and also

[00:44:17] [SPEAKER_00]: do we want them wearing our shirts was it they're gonna they're just gonna be studying them

[00:44:23] [SPEAKER_00]: okay maybe like fold them over they'll be like in the lab

[00:44:27] [SPEAKER_00]: once you feel better is an unwell we're like sitting in their homes just playing with our

[00:44:32] [SPEAKER_00]: shirts yeah isn't that probably the best thing they could do yeah so god bless me for coming

[00:44:37] [SPEAKER_01]: up with this pitch but i mean all the normal people these shirts are for you mostly and

[00:44:42] [SPEAKER_01]: so that's i think where we want to aim our our sights and you can wear them

[00:44:48] [SPEAKER_00]: when you do uh pass out trigger treat candy no don't go back to that

[00:44:54] [SPEAKER_01]: that was the stupidest thing i don't even understand that where does your mind come up

[00:44:59] [SPEAKER_01]: with these things oh i'm playing like 3d chess yeah you're like doing freaking 3d chess

[00:45:06] [SPEAKER_00]: we'll see we'll see if this week we we are flooded with a t-shirt request so we done with

[00:45:13] [SPEAKER_00]: whatever the hell that was where does she shop.com and kindleville and kindleville

[00:45:20] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah kindleville go to our show notes we have a link to the event and we'll see you there

[00:45:26] [SPEAKER_01]: hopefully you can wear a shirt there you wear a shirt or you could buy a shirt either one

[00:45:30] [SPEAKER_01]: or you don't have to buy a shirt i mean we're not gonna force you well speak for

[00:45:34] [SPEAKER_01]: yourself all right well thanks everyone so much for listening what if someone wore the shirt

[00:45:42] [SPEAKER_00]: and said the secret word i you really respect them then i really don't know what the secret

[00:45:48] [SPEAKER_01]: word is i don't know what you're talking about you got this whole like big plan that

[00:45:52] [SPEAKER_01]: you're not revealing to anybody if i told you it wouldn't be a secret anymore i'm just

[00:45:57] [SPEAKER_01]: so confused i'm so confused i'm baffled i'm slightly horrified you seem a little concerned

[00:46:03] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah yeah well have a good weekend we look forward to seeing some of you in kindleville

[00:46:10] [SPEAKER_00]: at either at our presentation or at gropp's fish stand and we also look forward to seeing

[00:46:17] [SPEAKER_00]: you all next week absolutely see you then thanks so much for listening to the murder sheet

[00:46:23] [SPEAKER_00]: if you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover please email us at

[00:46:29] [SPEAKER_00]: murdercheat.gmail.com if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime

[00:46:36] [SPEAKER_00]: please report it to the appropriate authorities if you're interested in joining our patreon

[00:46:43] [SPEAKER_01]: that's available at www.patreon.com murder sheet if you want to tip us a bit of money for

[00:47:04] [SPEAKER_00]: special thanks to kevin tyler greenlee who composed the music for the murder sheet

[00:47:09] [SPEAKER_00]: and who you can find on the web at kevin tg.com if you're looking to talk with other

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