The Cheat Sheet: Loss and Litigation

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Content warning, this episode contains discussion of murder as well as sexual assault and torture and suicide.

[00:00:08] [SPEAKER_01]: So in today's cheat sheet, we're going to be going all around.

[00:00:11] [SPEAKER_01]: We're going to be doing one case that takes us from Hawaii to California and even abroad.

[00:00:16] [SPEAKER_01]: We're going to do two cases from New York as well as one case out of Indiana.

[00:00:24] [SPEAKER_01]: My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist.

[00:00:26] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

[00:00:29] [SPEAKER_00]: And this is The Murder Sheet.

[00:00:30] [SPEAKER_00]: We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews and deep dives into murder cases.

[00:00:37] [SPEAKER_00]: We're The Murder Sheet.

[00:00:39] [SPEAKER_00]: And this is The Cheat Sheet, Loss and Litigation.

[00:01:31] [SPEAKER_01]: How did you want to start this off? You had a whole scheme.

[00:01:35] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, part of that scheme was you were going to do the first case.

[00:01:38] [SPEAKER_01]: That's fair.

[00:01:41] [SPEAKER_01]: So Kevin and I recently did something pretty crazy for us that we've not done in a long time.

[00:01:46] [SPEAKER_01]: We'll probably not do again for a long time for many reasons.

[00:01:51] [SPEAKER_01]: But we actually took a vacation.

[00:01:53] [SPEAKER_01]: And this I swear this ties into what we're going to talk about one of the cases.

[00:01:58] [SPEAKER_01]: But we actually went to Hawaii.

[00:02:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Hawaii.

[00:02:01] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's a beautiful, beautiful state with wonderful people.

[00:02:04] [SPEAKER_01]: It's just a great experience.

[00:02:06] [SPEAKER_01]: But as we were and also we're going to do a lot of Hawaii cases.

[00:02:10] [SPEAKER_01]: I think some eagle-eared listeners picked up on this that Kevin's always mentioning Hawaii.

[00:02:15] [SPEAKER_01]: He's always wanted to go.

[00:02:16] [SPEAKER_01]: And so we'll actually be probably covering some cases out of there.

[00:02:20] [SPEAKER_00]: More specifically, we went to Maui.

[00:02:23] [SPEAKER_00]: And it was an interesting time to be in Maui because of this Hannah Kobayashi case.

[00:02:30] [SPEAKER_00]: It was really something that was getting a lot of discussion.

[00:02:33] [SPEAKER_00]: I remember there was a guy on the radio that was always talking about it.

[00:02:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we were always listening to the radio when we drove around.

[00:02:37] [SPEAKER_01]: We went to Maui and Oahu.

[00:02:39] [SPEAKER_01]: But we were in Maui when the Kobayashi news broke.

[00:02:42] [SPEAKER_01]: I loved this DJ because he was by himself.

[00:02:45] [SPEAKER_01]: And he had kind of the feel of a guy who wasn't really a DJ who just kind of wandered in and would be like,

[00:02:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Hey, anyone here about this?

[00:02:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Weird.

[00:02:52] [SPEAKER_01]: I loved him.

[00:02:53] [SPEAKER_01]: But he was talking about the Kobayashi case.

[00:02:57] [SPEAKER_01]: And of course, this is very local to Maui because Hannah Kobayashi and her family are from the island of Maui in Hawaii.

[00:03:04] [SPEAKER_01]: And obviously having, you know, a missing person then, you know, where she disappears before going on a flight in California,

[00:03:13] [SPEAKER_01]: seemingly crosses the border voluntarily to Mexico.

[00:03:17] [SPEAKER_01]: It just was a lot of intrigue and mystery.

[00:03:19] [SPEAKER_01]: But but especially for people there, because it was a local case.

[00:03:22] [SPEAKER_01]: So they were, you know, these people who are from there.

[00:03:25] [SPEAKER_01]: So they're wondering what exactly happened.

[00:03:27] [SPEAKER_00]: So we got some information from CNN.

[00:03:30] [SPEAKER_00]: Can you tell us what the latest is?

[00:03:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, the latest is that Hannah Kobayashi has actually spoken out and has essentially released a statement to the media saying that she was not aware of the media frenzy around her seeming disappearance and asking for space, essentially.

[00:03:50] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's sort of the latest thing.

[00:03:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Obviously, this is a very tragic situation because while Miss Kobayashi was obviously safe and nothing happened to her, you know, her father unfortunately passed away.

[00:04:05] [SPEAKER_01]: He he he died by suicide during the search for her in California.

[00:04:11] [SPEAKER_01]: And so obviously this is a tragic situation for the family.

[00:04:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Very, very odd set of circumstances.

[00:04:17] [SPEAKER_01]: But here's the thing, like people can behave in ways that are unexpected or even irrational.

[00:04:24] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's doesn't mean there's a crime that's been committed.

[00:04:27] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's always important to rec.

[00:04:28] [SPEAKER_01]: I think I think the Internet tends to see crimes where maybe crimes do not occur sometimes.

[00:04:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[00:04:34] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, like there's a there's a sense of paranoia that is unfortunately fostered by a lot of spaces within true crime.

[00:04:42] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I see people, you know, talking about like I almost got human trafficked and it's like you probably just saw a creepy guy in the parking lot like like let's not, you know, probably not.

[00:04:54] [SPEAKER_01]: But I think this kind of strikes me as like the true crime of vacation of the discourse where people kind of almost assume.

[00:05:02] [SPEAKER_01]: And listen, I understand where her family was very concerned, but also it became pretty clear early on that, you know, this whatever was happening was very likely voluntary.

[00:05:13] [SPEAKER_01]: And she's a 30 year old woman.

[00:05:15] [SPEAKER_01]: So she's perfectly within her rights to leave without checking in.

[00:05:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Let's talk about that.

[00:05:21] [SPEAKER_00]: I always believe and I think we've talked on the show about that, how there should be more accountability in true crime.

[00:05:27] [SPEAKER_00]: And that means when people are wrong, that should be remembered.

[00:05:31] [SPEAKER_00]: And also when people get things right, that should be acknowledged.

[00:05:36] [SPEAKER_00]: And maybe we give those people more credence in the future for a period in this case.

[00:05:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Most of the media was acting as if they were convinced that there was something untoward or something bad that happened to this woman, that something criminal had happened to her.

[00:05:54] [SPEAKER_00]: And that's something that was prompting the urgency of the search.

[00:05:58] [SPEAKER_00]: We've got to find her something bad happened to her.

[00:06:00] [SPEAKER_00]: We've got to find her and make sure she's OK.

[00:06:03] [SPEAKER_00]: Very, very, very early on in the process, this investigator named Steve Fisher, who is on Twitter as SF investigates.

[00:06:14] [SPEAKER_00]: He was going on Twitter and he was very coolly and rationally saying, I've looked into it.

[00:06:21] [SPEAKER_00]: Here's some of the information I have that makes me conclude that this is a voluntary disappearance and that no crime has occurred here.

[00:06:30] [SPEAKER_00]: And so I think he deserves credit for that.

[00:06:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, absolutely.

[00:06:37] [SPEAKER_01]: I think you're right.

[00:06:39] [SPEAKER_01]: It is a two way street.

[00:06:40] [SPEAKER_01]: It's not just about remembering who got things disastrously wrong.

[00:06:43] [SPEAKER_01]: It's about saying, hey, these people were correct.

[00:06:45] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's sort of like it's like having an account like, you know, every you know, when you're right and you're doing a good job, you're putting credit on your account.

[00:06:52] [SPEAKER_01]: And when you're when you're, you know, not, then you're wrecking your credit score.

[00:06:57] [SPEAKER_01]: And people people should, you know, really consider that.

[00:07:02] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I think when we first reported on it, we were like, oh, some of her text sounded pretty weird.

[00:07:06] [SPEAKER_01]: But then from there, people were still acting like there must be something nefarious afoot, even after, you know, she was seen on video crossing over alone with her luggage into Mexico.

[00:07:17] [SPEAKER_00]: And this guy, even before that, was saying this was a voluntary disappearance.

[00:07:20] [SPEAKER_00]: And he was absolutely correct.

[00:07:22] [SPEAKER_00]: And he had good reasons to think so, which he shared.

[00:07:25] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't believe he shared everything he knew because he was trying to respect the privacy of the people involved as much as possible.

[00:07:33] [SPEAKER_00]: But he was making sure people knew that this was a voluntary disappearance.

[00:07:38] [SPEAKER_00]: And again, I think he deserves credit for that.

[00:07:39] [SPEAKER_01]: But of course, you know, the things that catch a fire in true crime are always the kind of like, whoa, it's a it's a mysterious murder case.

[00:07:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Let's all go nuts.

[00:07:48] [SPEAKER_01]: And not the kind of like cool rationality of like, actually, I don't think there's a crime here, you know, because people want it to be a crime on some level.

[00:07:57] [SPEAKER_01]: People like people would always prefer the more interesting thing.

[00:08:01] [SPEAKER_01]: They prefer something to be a crime.

[00:08:03] [SPEAKER_01]: They prefer something to be a serial killer.

[00:08:04] [SPEAKER_01]: They're, you know, it always has to be more and more extreme to state the public desire for an interesting story.

[00:08:10] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's why it really behooves creators of all types, whether or not they consider themselves journalists or not.

[00:08:17] [SPEAKER_01]: I still think if you have a platform, you do have a responsibility to try to put out the truth whenever possible.

[00:08:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Everyone's capable of making mistakes.

[00:08:27] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not saying like, oh, if you make one error, you know, you're out.

[00:08:30] [SPEAKER_01]: It's it's not that it's just I.

[00:08:33] [SPEAKER_01]: I think, you know, hopefully it can be a lesson.

[00:08:37] [SPEAKER_01]: It won't be, though, because it's it's there's no there's no real incentives here.

[00:08:42] [SPEAKER_01]: The incentives are actually perverse because it incentivizes, you know, making a big deal about this.

[00:08:47] [SPEAKER_01]: But I'd say with this case, it is kind of interesting to see.

[00:08:51] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, just the whirlwind that develops.

[00:08:54] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, it's it almost reminds me when we went to Niagara Falls.

[00:08:59] [SPEAKER_01]: What was that thing?

[00:09:00] [SPEAKER_01]: It was like the devil's whirlpool.

[00:09:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, this is one portion of the river that is so swirling and treacherous that if you fall into it, you're basically dead.

[00:09:10] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, you'll get sucked under and you're gone.

[00:09:13] [SPEAKER_01]: And sometimes the true crime online discourse reminds me of that.

[00:09:18] [SPEAKER_01]: It's like sort of people in this case, you know, Hannah Kobayashi seemingly not even knowing people are looking for her.

[00:09:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe there's some family estrangement going on there.

[00:09:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Her family that's trying to raise awareness.

[00:09:30] [SPEAKER_01]: But, you know, it's like these kind of people just get kind of put in this whirlpool.

[00:09:35] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's kind of out of your hands at that point.

[00:09:38] [SPEAKER_01]: It's just kind of it's the Internet's thing now.

[00:09:41] [SPEAKER_01]: So somewhat troubling, but understandable that when people were interested.

[00:09:45] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it was mysterious.

[00:09:46] [SPEAKER_01]: It's just obviously not a crime.

[00:09:51] [SPEAKER_00]: Let's move on to Indiana and talk about the case involving Joseph Edward Corcoran.

[00:09:58] [SPEAKER_00]: This is a man who all the way back in 1997 committed quadruple murder.

[00:10:05] [SPEAKER_00]: He murdered his older brother, his sister's fiancee and two of their friends.

[00:10:11] [SPEAKER_00]: This is because he was living with his older sister and a brother.

[00:10:16] [SPEAKER_00]: He thinks he may be kicked out of the home soon.

[00:10:19] [SPEAKER_00]: He's upstairs.

[00:10:20] [SPEAKER_00]: He hears voices.

[00:10:21] [SPEAKER_00]: He's convinced these people are talking about him.

[00:10:24] [SPEAKER_00]: So he takes his gun and goes downstairs and things quickly lead to murder.

[00:10:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Also, can I just say he killed his parents?

[00:10:31] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, he was acquitted for that crime, but he was he had been on trial for murdering his parents prior to this.

[00:10:37] [SPEAKER_01]: And the jury acquitted him.

[00:10:39] [SPEAKER_01]: And in my opinion, he was factually guilty of that situation.

[00:10:44] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not going to comment on whether the jury made a mistake because it's possible the state just didn't prove its case.

[00:10:48] [SPEAKER_01]: But I think he killed his parents as well.

[00:10:52] [SPEAKER_00]: He was convicted of the murder of the quadruple homicide.

[00:10:57] [SPEAKER_00]: And he was sentenced by none other than Judge Fran Goel to death.

[00:11:04] [SPEAKER_00]: And Fran Goel, of course, as we all know, as we speak now, she will soon be sentencing Richard Allen for his role in the murders of Abby Williams and Liberty German.

[00:11:19] [SPEAKER_00]: So ever since this sentence of death that was passed on to him, attorneys representing him have been trying to make arguments that that shouldn't happen.

[00:11:33] [SPEAKER_00]: One of the biggest arguments they've made is that he was mentally ill at the time, so shouldn't be held responsible.

[00:11:42] [SPEAKER_00]: And he was actually finally all these years later.

[00:11:48] [SPEAKER_00]: He was just executed this week.

[00:11:50] [SPEAKER_00]: And one of the reasons why he was executed was he himself filed a handwritten affidavit to the court.

[00:12:01] [SPEAKER_00]: And I would like to read some excerpts from his affidavit.

[00:12:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Quote, I am the same Joseph Edward Corcoran, who was convicted in Allen County in 1999 of four counts of murder and sentenced to death.

[00:12:19] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm the same Joseph Edward Corcoran, who has a very extensive appeal history.

[00:12:24] [SPEAKER_00]: Having lost all appeals, this court has issued a death warrant to be carried out December 18th, 2024, before sunrise.

[00:12:32] [SPEAKER_00]: My assigned counsel has petitioned this court on my behalf.

[00:12:36] [SPEAKER_00]: They seek to further litigate this case.

[00:12:40] [SPEAKER_00]: Their goal, which was explained to me by counsel, is to delay any and all executions through endless litigation.

[00:12:48] [SPEAKER_00]: They hope to set a precedent so all future death penalty cases can be endlessly litigated, effectively putting an end to all executions.

[00:12:58] [SPEAKER_00]: I, Joseph Edward Corcoran, do not wish to litigate my case further.

[00:13:02] [SPEAKER_00]: I am guilty of the crime I was convicted of and accept the findings of all the appellate courts.

[00:13:10] [SPEAKER_00]: The long, drawn-out appeal history has addressed all of the issues I wish to appeal, such as the issue of competency.

[00:13:19] [SPEAKER_00]: Therefore, I am hereby making this statement to the court through this affidavit.

[00:13:24] [SPEAKER_00]: I do not wish to proceed with more and more endless litigation.

[00:13:30] [SPEAKER_00]: Thus, I write this court to not accept my counsel's motion and petition to litigate further.

[00:13:36] [SPEAKER_00]: I understand that if this court rejects my counsel's petition, the death warrant will be carried out.

[00:13:43] [SPEAKER_00]: I was then be put to death for the heinous crime I committed.

[00:13:47] [SPEAKER_00]: I understand that the execution will end my life.

[00:13:50] [SPEAKER_00]: I understand medically my heart will stop and all brain activity will cease.

[00:13:56] [SPEAKER_00]: I do not know, however, what will happen metaphysically, but neither does anyone else.

[00:14:01] [SPEAKER_00]: I understand the execution in the interest of judgment serves as both a punishment and a deterrent.

[00:14:09] [SPEAKER_00]: I, Joseph Edward Corcoran, give this affidavit to the court of my own free will.

[00:14:14] [SPEAKER_00]: I was not coerced into making this statement, nor was I promised anything.

[00:14:19] [SPEAKER_00]: I remind this court that my competence to waive my appeals has been adjudicated throughout this extensive appeals process.

[00:14:27] [SPEAKER_00]: Therefore, of my own free will and completely voluntarily, without coercion or promise of anything, having been adjudicated competent, withdraw the motion counsel file on my behalf.

[00:14:39] [SPEAKER_00]: I do not wish to litigate further.

[00:14:41] [SPEAKER_00]: However, if this court refuses to withdraw the motion outright, I ask the court to reject it on the basis that I, the appellant, have no desire nor wish to engage in further appeals or litigation whatsoever.

[00:14:56] [SPEAKER_00]: End quote.

[00:14:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Wow.

[00:14:59] [SPEAKER_00]: So his attorneys are making arguments for him that he does not wish to be made.

[00:15:06] [SPEAKER_00]: And so it was interesting.

[00:15:08] [SPEAKER_00]: The court considered all of this and they said that they ultimately found that in that affidavit, he shows a clear knowledge and understanding of what the death penalty is.

[00:15:22] [SPEAKER_00]: He accepts his guilt.

[00:15:24] [SPEAKER_00]: He comes across as understanding the process.

[00:15:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, he's quite coherent about it, actually.

[00:15:30] [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, it's interesting.

[00:15:33] [SPEAKER_01]: I think when I looked at this case, I think I looked at it when we were doing our profile episode on Gull.

[00:15:40] [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, it was pretty clear that he suffered from paranoid schizophrenia.

[00:15:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Like, that was not, you know, I don't think that was up for debate.

[00:15:50] [SPEAKER_01]: As far as him being criminally, as far as him being legally insane when he killed the people in his house.

[00:15:59] [SPEAKER_01]: One thing that really hurt him with that is that he took his seven-year-old niece and hid her in an upstairs bedroom before going down.

[00:16:09] [SPEAKER_01]: So the thinking was, if someone's going down there and is in the kind of grips of some sort of insane episode, would they be cognizant enough to do that?

[00:16:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Likely no.

[00:16:23] [SPEAKER_01]: No, the answer is obviously no.

[00:16:25] [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, and that kind of gets into where there's a discrepancy, where there's a huge divide in some ways between our legal system and our maybe understanding of mental health.

[00:16:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Where the legal system is really looking at what are you doing in that moment?

[00:16:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Are you legally insane in that moment?

[00:16:44] [SPEAKER_01]: And what the mental health system is more looking at is holistically someone has paranoid schizophrenia.

[00:16:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe that is the cause of what happened.

[00:16:52] [SPEAKER_01]: But there is a divide.

[00:16:54] [SPEAKER_01]: And so I always thought that was kind of interesting.

[00:16:57] [SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, that one kind of act of mercy in a way kind of made it so, well, technically you're not really insane then.

[00:17:06] [SPEAKER_01]: So what do you make of an inmate essentially asking to die like this?

[00:17:12] [SPEAKER_00]: If he understands that it appears that it appears that he does, it's his right.

[00:17:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Your attorney is, for all intents and purposes, your agent acting on your wishes.

[00:17:27] [SPEAKER_00]: And if you are competent and you have a certain request, they should fulfill it.

[00:17:33] [SPEAKER_00]: The court wrote, I'm reading from their opinion, the state public defender has provided plenty of evidence that Corcoran suffers from a mental illness.

[00:17:42] [SPEAKER_00]: But despite his mental illness, Corcoran has demonstrated he understands why he's being executed.

[00:17:47] [SPEAKER_00]: And the state public defender has not provided any evidence suggesting that Corcoran's understanding is irrational.

[00:17:55] [SPEAKER_00]: When concluding that Corcoran was competent to waive post-conviction remedies, we concluded that he has a non-delusional understanding of these legal proceedings.

[00:18:04] [SPEAKER_00]: And part of what we relied on was his reasoning that his death sentence is commiserate with the crime he committed, which was the conclusion to which both the original trial court jury and judge came.

[00:18:16] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, you know, there was a serial killer named Michael Bruce Ross out of Connecticut, I believe.

[00:18:24] [SPEAKER_01]: And he was a brutal serial killer who killed, you know, quite a number of people.

[00:18:32] [SPEAKER_01]: But after he was arrested, he was sentenced to death and he converted to Catholicism.

[00:18:39] [SPEAKER_01]: And he was personally actually against the death penalty.

[00:18:44] [SPEAKER_01]: But he basically was also trying to do things like waive appeals.

[00:18:51] [SPEAKER_01]: His stated reasoning was to spare his victims' families from an endless appeal process.

[00:18:57] [SPEAKER_01]: And that is something, and he was ultimately, I believe, executed.

[00:19:05] [SPEAKER_01]: That aspect of the death penalty, which is that sort of it kind of kicks off endless litigation, as Corcoran described it here, is something that I do think makes the death penalty much more unwieldy to deploy.

[00:19:23] [SPEAKER_01]: And you really don't see it.

[00:19:25] [SPEAKER_01]: People often ask this in the Delphi case.

[00:19:27] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, the Delphi case was a man for no reason brutally murdering two teenagers who were just out for a walk.

[00:19:34] [SPEAKER_01]: And people are like, that's outrageous.

[00:19:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Why is that not a death penalty case?

[00:19:38] [SPEAKER_01]: But honestly, I think oftentimes it's to not have to deal with the endless litigation.

[00:19:43] [SPEAKER_01]: People feel that life in prison is just as bad, if not worse, and as a punishment.

[00:19:50] [SPEAKER_01]: And so for a really heinous crime, maybe we don't kick off the endless appeals.

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[00:21:30] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, those are good points.

[00:21:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Another case it reminded me of was, of course, going back to the 70s, Gary Gilmore.

[00:21:37] [SPEAKER_00]: He wanted to die, and he fought for that.

[00:21:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you do see that.

[00:21:43] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, not necessarily a ton, but you see that where people are just like, just give me the death penalty already.

[00:21:54] [SPEAKER_01]: But, yeah.

[00:21:56] [SPEAKER_01]: It's disturbing.

[00:21:57] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's disturbing in the sense that his crimes are disturbing, and kind of reading this affidavit is chilling.

[00:22:08] [SPEAKER_00]: It is.

[00:22:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Because you have essentially, in very, like, legalese terms, a man asking to be killed.

[00:22:14] [SPEAKER_01]: To die.

[00:22:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:22:15] [SPEAKER_00]: It was handwritten, very normal-looking handwriting.

[00:22:19] [SPEAKER_00]: There was nothing, like, erratic about it.

[00:22:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Way better handwriting than me.

[00:22:21] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm just going to say that right now.

[00:22:23] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[00:22:24] [SPEAKER_01]: I know his family, I think, came out against the death penalty in this case.

[00:22:30] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know about all the victims' families, but I know, you know, his family was victimized by him because they lost another brother, one of his victims.

[00:22:38] [SPEAKER_01]: So it's like they're victims, but also, you know, his family.

[00:22:44] [SPEAKER_01]: So they kind of occupied kind of a different space.

[00:22:46] [SPEAKER_01]: I imagine that's very difficult, and I feel bad for everyone in this situation.

[00:22:50] [SPEAKER_00]: And as we say, he was executed earlier this week.

[00:22:53] [SPEAKER_00]: The sentence was originally imposed by Judge Gull.

[00:22:57] [SPEAKER_00]: There were some issues with how she originally imposed it, so she had to go back and reimpose it.

[00:23:03] [SPEAKER_00]: But it was carried out as she sentenced just a couple of days ago.

[00:23:09] [SPEAKER_01]: And my understanding is one of the reasons there's been a huge delay with death penalty in, you know, kind of being carried out in Indiana is a lack of a certain drug.

[00:23:20] [SPEAKER_01]: But the state has obtained it recently, so that's why things have kind of kicked off again.

[00:23:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Now, there's a different – there are prisoners that are executed in Terre Haute, but that's federal.

[00:23:30] [SPEAKER_01]: So these are state – that's the difference.

[00:23:33] [SPEAKER_01]: So if you hear about, like, oh, well, there's been executions in Indiana, yes, but –

[00:23:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Those are federal.

[00:23:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, not for a while with the state level.

[00:23:40] [SPEAKER_01]: And he was going to, you know, be the first on the list, and so that has been carried out.

[00:23:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we have a federal prison in Terre Haute.

[00:23:48] [SPEAKER_00]: And correct me if I'm wrong, wasn't that where Timothy McVeigh was executed?

[00:23:52] [SPEAKER_01]: I believe so, yes.

[00:23:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[00:23:55] [SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, definitely a sad case all around.

[00:23:59] [SPEAKER_00]: Let's move on to a case that's getting a lot of attention.

[00:24:04] [SPEAKER_00]: This is the murder of Brian Thompson by Luigi Mangione.

[00:24:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Our source for this is CNN.

[00:24:13] [SPEAKER_00]: This is a case a lot of people are talking a lot about.

[00:24:19] [SPEAKER_01]: A lot of takes.

[00:24:19] [SPEAKER_00]: A lot of hot takes on it, and there were also lots and lots and lots of developments in this case when we were in Hawaii.

[00:24:30] [SPEAKER_00]: I think at some point we're going to do a deep dive examination into this case.

[00:24:37] [SPEAKER_00]: Is that fair to say?

[00:24:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I'd like to.

[00:24:38] [SPEAKER_01]: It's definitely very interesting.

[00:24:41] [SPEAKER_00]: We're not going to do that today.

[00:24:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Not on a cheat sheet.

[00:24:45] [SPEAKER_01]: You guys know that's not what we're doing here.

[00:24:47] [SPEAKER_00]: I did want to talk about just one aspect of this case, which is that he was charged under New York law with murder in the first degree.

[00:25:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Essentially, they're describing the New York prosecutors are describing the murder as an act of terrorism, which they're saying, oh, he did this to he was intentionally trying to scare people to change behavior, to terrorize all of these executives.

[00:25:19] [SPEAKER_00]: And some people are noting correctly, in my view, that it may be a challenge to prove those elements.

[00:25:32] [SPEAKER_00]: But keep in mind that a lot of the decisions prosecutors make when they are bringing charges is essentially to give them bargaining chips later on in the process or to give the juries options.

[00:25:52] [SPEAKER_00]: For instance, if he was convicted of this particular charge, he would be sentenced to life.

[00:25:59] [SPEAKER_00]: And so that might give him a motivation to try to get a plea bargain.

[00:26:05] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, drop the terrorist thing.

[00:26:07] [SPEAKER_00]: I will plead guilty to a lesser charge.

[00:26:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe I won't do quite so long in prison.

[00:26:12] [SPEAKER_00]: And also that would give the jury an option to not necessarily take the strongest possible charge.

[00:26:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:26:18] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I mean, do you see a world in which a prosecutor with this much evidence even bothers to try to make a deal?

[00:26:26] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, obviously, the big thing that people are talking about with something like this is that it's emotions have run high in the United States.

[00:26:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Health care is is a very contentious and messy topic.

[00:26:41] [SPEAKER_01]: And also people are very angry with health insurers, with health insurance giants like United, which, of course, Brian Thompson was the CEO of.

[00:26:51] [SPEAKER_01]: So to me, it's not a case where it's like, oh, they meant that the evidence isn't there.

[00:26:56] [SPEAKER_01]: To me, it's a case where you'd be concerned about a jury.

[00:27:00] [SPEAKER_00]: I think the evidence is there that he committed the murder.

[00:27:03] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not sure the evidence is there that he committed the murder with the intention of terroristic purposes.

[00:27:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:27:10] [SPEAKER_01]: I yeah.

[00:27:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Without knowing what they have.

[00:27:12] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't I don't know.

[00:27:13] [SPEAKER_01]: That's why I say it seems like it.

[00:27:15] [SPEAKER_01]: It seems like a stretch.

[00:27:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[00:27:17] [SPEAKER_00]: So that's why on the outside.

[00:27:18] [SPEAKER_00]: So that's why I'm saying they may be doing that for just just kind of set up a potential for a plea.

[00:27:26] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I should I should have been clear.

[00:27:28] [SPEAKER_00]: I think it's clear he committed this crime.

[00:27:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:27:31] [SPEAKER_00]: It's it's not clear why it is not clear what his intent was if his intent was to do a terroristic act.

[00:27:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:27:39] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, they might have something that, you know, kind of solidifies that.

[00:27:43] [SPEAKER_01]: But without knowing, it does seem a little bit, you know, I I would be curious to see how that case develops.

[00:27:51] [SPEAKER_01]: And if anything comes out about Mr. Mangione about, you know, you know, his his mental wellness, things like that.

[00:27:58] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, it's it's a it's really set off the Internet.

[00:28:02] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, it really has.

[00:28:04] [SPEAKER_01]: It's one of those cases.

[00:28:06] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think it's set off of a discussion about health care.

[00:28:10] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that's people are talking about that.

[00:28:13] [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, I think even people in I mean, this is a case where it's interesting.

[00:28:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I feel we've had interesting conversations with just people in our own lives of every political persuasion, you know, and consistently one thing that we've heard, one theme we've heard is a lot of anger at the health insurance industry.

[00:28:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Which is interesting.

[00:28:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Because you don't necessarily I don't necessarily see that unity with anything else when we talk to people.

[00:28:44] [SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, we live in a very divided country.

[00:28:47] [SPEAKER_01]: It's also kind of given rise to what I would given maybe more clarity to what I would look at is like the fandom of vacation of true crime, where people the way people talk about it.

[00:28:59] [SPEAKER_01]: It's kind of very meme heavy, very fandom based, you know, that kind of thing, where you'd almost expect it to be how people talk about like a TV show that they like versus reality and a murder.

[00:29:12] [SPEAKER_01]: So it's just an odd.

[00:29:14] [SPEAKER_01]: It's an odd one.

[00:29:15] [SPEAKER_00]: It's an odd one.

[00:29:16] [SPEAKER_00]: And we'll have an interesting discussion about it, I'm sure, on a later episode.

[00:29:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.

[00:29:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Why don't you tell us about the latest developments in Long Island?

[00:29:24] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, let's.

[00:29:24] [SPEAKER_00]: Because I know a case you've been following closely.

[00:29:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, this is let's go from New York City to Long Island.

[00:29:29] [SPEAKER_00]: And the Guardian was the source.

[00:29:31] [SPEAKER_01]: The Guardian, yes.

[00:29:32] [SPEAKER_01]: We use the Guardian as the source here.

[00:29:34] [SPEAKER_01]: And of course, we'll link to all our sources in our show notes.

[00:29:36] [SPEAKER_01]: But this is yet another development in the case.

[00:29:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Excuse me.

[00:29:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Against Rex Heuerman, who is accused of being the Long Island serial killer or the Gilgo Beach killer.

[00:29:49] [SPEAKER_01]: And he was charged in the murders of six women.

[00:29:54] [SPEAKER_01]: These were each sex workers who went missing mostly, I think, in the early 2000s, maybe some in the late 90s.

[00:30:03] [SPEAKER_01]: But certainly, you know, many years ago, they went missing.

[00:30:07] [SPEAKER_01]: And then in, I believe, around, you know, the kind of a little bit later, I think it was like around 2010, 2011, they were found, their bodies were found near Gilgo Beach, bound, wrapped in burlap.

[00:30:25] [SPEAKER_01]: And the victims of a serial killer, seemingly.

[00:30:29] [SPEAKER_01]: And this is one of those cases that went unsolved for quite a while and was very frustrating because it was just like this heinous, heinous crime, but was, you know, still not solved.

[00:30:45] [SPEAKER_01]: And so, yeah, it sounds like it looks like they were found around December 2010.

[00:30:53] [SPEAKER_01]: So 2010 into 2011.

[00:30:55] [SPEAKER_01]: And four of them were kind of known as the Gilgo Beach Four.

[00:31:02] [SPEAKER_01]: That was Megan Waterman, Melissa Barthelieu, Amber Costello, and Maureen Brainerd Barnes.

[00:31:07] [SPEAKER_01]: They were found relatively close together and displaying a very similar MO.

[00:31:14] [SPEAKER_01]: But there have been other victims added to the list.

[00:31:17] [SPEAKER_01]: And those include Jessica Taylor and Sandra Costilla and now Valerie Mack.

[00:31:23] [SPEAKER_01]: So Valerie Mack, she was previously called Jane Doe No. 6.

[00:31:31] [SPEAKER_01]: And her remains were found in Manorville, Long Island in 2000.

[00:31:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Just her torso.

[00:31:38] [SPEAKER_01]: And her other parts of her body were found closer to Gilgo Beach in 2011.

[00:31:45] [SPEAKER_01]: In 2020, she was ID'd.

[00:31:48] [SPEAKER_01]: They figured out her identity through, I believe, genetic genealogy, I presume.

[00:31:54] [SPEAKER_01]: And now he has now Hewerman has been charged with her murder.

[00:32:00] [SPEAKER_01]: And what ties her case to Hewerman is that there was female hair found on her remains.

[00:32:09] [SPEAKER_01]: And that has since been linked to Rex Hewerman's wife.

[00:32:15] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if they're still married, but like soon-to-be ex-wife or wife and daughter.

[00:32:20] [SPEAKER_01]: DNA confirmed that to a pretty high percentage.

[00:32:26] [SPEAKER_01]: And, yeah.

[00:32:29] [SPEAKER_01]: So that kind of sums it up.

[00:32:31] [SPEAKER_01]: There's been yet another name.

[00:32:32] [SPEAKER_01]: So I guess that's seven now.

[00:32:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Seven victims?

[00:32:36] [SPEAKER_00]: That sounds right.

[00:32:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:32:38] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, and his lawyer is saying, well, that hair samples were collected later on and it's not reliable DNA technology.

[00:32:46] [SPEAKER_01]: So he's arguing it.

[00:32:49] [SPEAKER_01]: But it sounds like when they describe the MO, the modus operandi, it sounds very similar to other cases.

[00:32:54] [SPEAKER_01]: We're talking about mutilation.

[00:32:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Her breasts were mutilated.

[00:32:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Rope was used to bind her remains.

[00:33:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Apparently that was similar to certain pornographic images that Hewerman had on his devices.

[00:33:12] So, yeah.

[00:33:13] [SPEAKER_01]: This case is very, very disturbing.

[00:33:17] [SPEAKER_01]: The things he did, I mean, he's accused of doing to these women are just horrifying.

[00:33:23] [SPEAKER_01]: But, yeah.

[00:33:26] [SPEAKER_01]: This killer targeted sex workers.

[00:33:29] [SPEAKER_01]: She would sort of lure them into meetings and then brutally torture and murder them.

[00:33:36] [SPEAKER_01]: So it's an upsetting case.

[00:33:39] [SPEAKER_00]: It's a very upsetting case.

[00:33:40] [SPEAKER_00]: And don't you have some personal connections to that general area?

[00:33:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:33:44] [SPEAKER_01]: I got family in Nassau County, Suffolk County, things like that.

[00:33:49] [SPEAKER_01]: So not too far away.

[00:33:50] [SPEAKER_01]: I have a lot of fond memories of Long Island in general.

[00:33:54] [SPEAKER_01]: I really like it out there.

[00:33:55] [SPEAKER_01]: But it's disturbing.

[00:33:58] [SPEAKER_01]: And, yeah, it was like, I mean, Massapequa Park, where he's from, I've had family that's lived there.

[00:34:05] [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm not like a local, but I definitely have been around that area a bit.

[00:34:10] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's just really surreal to see it all in the news, I guess, because it's like, wait, what?

[00:34:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Why are they talking about Massapequa Park?

[00:34:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, okay.

[00:34:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's what happened.

[00:34:20] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's just sad.

[00:34:21] [SPEAKER_01]: And I, you know, I guess, you know, it's one of those things you don't want to, like, necessarily prematurely assume that everything must be connected.

[00:34:32] [SPEAKER_01]: I've been kind of holding out.

[00:34:33] [SPEAKER_01]: I've been kind of saying, well, maybe there's two killers.

[00:34:34] [SPEAKER_01]: But it sounds like increasingly this prosecution team is saying, no, there is one man responsible for a lot of this stuff.

[00:34:42] [SPEAKER_01]: And his name is Rex Heurman.

[00:34:44] [SPEAKER_01]: And we are going to charge him with all of this.

[00:34:46] [SPEAKER_01]: So we'll have to see how it develops at trial.

[00:34:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Are there going to be any defense strategies that his defense team can employ to maybe knock down some of this?

[00:34:54] [SPEAKER_01]: So far, the amount of DNA evidence is very damning.

[00:34:58] [SPEAKER_01]: So I don't think it looks that good for him.

[00:35:00] [SPEAKER_01]: But you never know what a defense team is going to be able to do and accomplish and perhaps raise doubts about some of the elements of it.

[00:35:08] [SPEAKER_01]: But, yeah, very disturbing.

[00:35:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Shall we move on?

[00:35:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, sure.

[00:35:14] [SPEAKER_00]: I think you had some words that you wanted to share.

[00:35:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Some words I wanted to share?

[00:35:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, we kind of owe an apology, perhaps.

[00:35:26] [SPEAKER_00]: I'll let you explain because somehow I feel it's all on your head.

[00:35:29] [SPEAKER_01]: No, it's completely your fault because of your aggressive marketing techniques.

[00:35:34] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sorry.

[00:35:34] [SPEAKER_01]: So this was the funniest thing.

[00:35:37] [SPEAKER_01]: The other day in our Facebook group, this is like made me laugh.

[00:35:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Somebody initially posted starting to concede to the idea that the only way to stop the T-shirt ads is to purchase one.

[00:35:48] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's very accurate.

[00:35:50] [SPEAKER_01]: And someone commented on that, noting that they had a dream about the shirts.

[00:35:54] [SPEAKER_01]: And they were – and apparently, quote, they were being sold at a funeral to debunk the rumor that no one has been murdered while wearing one.

[00:36:01] [SPEAKER_01]: And I –

[00:36:04] [SPEAKER_01]: That sounds like something that would happen somehow.

[00:36:07] [SPEAKER_01]: We're giving people stress dreams with these ads.

[00:36:10] [SPEAKER_00]: I think probably you.

[00:36:11] [SPEAKER_01]: No, I think you are.

[00:36:13] [SPEAKER_00]: We always hear from people saying, Kevin, your voice is relaxing.

[00:36:16] [SPEAKER_00]: It helps me ease into the most restful sleep I've ever known.

[00:36:19] [SPEAKER_00]: We've heard from more than one person that they've had nightmares about you.

[00:36:24] [SPEAKER_01]: This is how bad –

[00:36:26] [SPEAKER_01]: You know that's true.

[00:36:26] [SPEAKER_01]: This is the follow-up comment.

[00:36:27] [SPEAKER_01]: This is how bad it was.

[00:36:28] [SPEAKER_01]: The dreamer said their family was with them at this dream funeral.

[00:36:32] [SPEAKER_01]: And the family was horrified.

[00:36:34] [SPEAKER_01]: They were saying, why would anyone be selling these T-shirts at a funeral?

[00:36:39] [SPEAKER_01]: And they were like, oh, no, I know them.

[00:36:41] [SPEAKER_01]: And they were like almost trying to get information.

[00:36:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Like, hey, this is a bad look.

[00:36:47] [SPEAKER_00]: So it's clear you crossed a line.

[00:36:48] [SPEAKER_01]: No, I think this sounds like your MO all over.

[00:36:51] [SPEAKER_01]: One of your infamous publicity stunts.

[00:36:54] [SPEAKER_01]: I could so see that.

[00:36:56] [SPEAKER_01]: And maybe –

[00:36:56] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm with you, person who had the dream, because I would be horrified.

[00:37:01] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think you're the one –

[00:37:03] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm the one who doesn't want to sell the shirts.

[00:37:05] [SPEAKER_01]: That's what I'm known for.

[00:37:06] [SPEAKER_01]: I do bad ads.

[00:37:07] [SPEAKER_01]: I acknowledge that.

[00:37:09] [SPEAKER_01]: You're the one who's trying to always get an angle in

[00:37:11] [SPEAKER_01]: and doing weird stuff with trick-or-treatings.

[00:37:13] [SPEAKER_01]: I saw one person in the group actually put the shirt on the Christmas tree.

[00:37:17] [SPEAKER_00]: And wasn't that the loveliest sign you've ever seen?

[00:37:20] [SPEAKER_00]: It was.

[00:37:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Didn't it put you in the holiday spirit as nothing ever has before?

[00:37:24] [SPEAKER_01]: And thank you to that person for –

[00:37:25] [SPEAKER_00]: So I think everybody should buy a shirt and put it on their tree,

[00:37:29] [SPEAKER_00]: and you can gather around it and exchange comments about the murder sheet.

[00:37:33] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sorry to that person because presumably they got a lot of questions

[00:37:37] [SPEAKER_01]: from their friends and family saying, are you okay?

[00:37:39] [SPEAKER_01]: What's going on in your life where this is happening?

[00:37:41] [SPEAKER_00]: No, they probably got a lot of comments, people going up and clapping them on the back

[00:37:45] [SPEAKER_00]: and saying, good job.

[00:37:46] [SPEAKER_00]: Now, I want to do this.

[00:37:48] [SPEAKER_01]: That person's name is Kevin Greenlee.

[00:37:51] [SPEAKER_00]: But if a person wants to, as they should want to,

[00:37:55] [SPEAKER_00]: if they want to put a T-shirt on a tree, how on earth would they procure one?

[00:37:59] [SPEAKER_00]: A T-shirt, not a tree.

[00:38:00] [SPEAKER_00]: There's many ways to get a tree.

[00:38:03] [SPEAKER_00]: We're not selling murder sheet-branded Christmas trees this year.

[00:38:10] [SPEAKER_01]: People can go to murdersheetshop.com and purchase a – I almost said a tree – and purchase a shirt.

[00:38:17] [SPEAKER_01]: And I'll note this, in the new year we will be expanding our size options.

[00:38:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Keep an eye out for that.

[00:38:23] [SPEAKER_01]: At some point.

[00:38:24] [SPEAKER_01]: At some point.

[00:38:24] [SPEAKER_01]: No guarantees on timing because we are pretty strapped, but that is something that is ongoing.

[00:38:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Negotiations are presumably starting soon after the holidays.

[00:38:33] [SPEAKER_01]: So I bet – just keep an eye on that.

[00:38:35] [SPEAKER_01]: But murdersheetshop.com, you can go.

[00:38:37] [SPEAKER_01]: There's a number of different sizes.

[00:38:40] [SPEAKER_01]: It's a very nice shirt.

[00:38:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Beautiful colors.

[00:38:42] [SPEAKER_01]: And I should note, I saw one person in the group posted a picture of their dog wearing the T-shirt,

[00:38:47] [SPEAKER_01]: which was adorable and I loved.

[00:38:49] [SPEAKER_01]: So your dogs can't – they are human shirts.

[00:38:53] [SPEAKER_01]: They are human shirts, but the dogs love them apparently.

[00:38:56] [SPEAKER_00]: Everybody loves these shirts.

[00:38:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Everybody.

[00:38:58] [SPEAKER_01]: The trees, the dogs.

[00:39:01] [SPEAKER_01]: It's the Murder Sheet Army.

[00:39:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[00:39:05] [SPEAKER_00]: You're going crazy.

[00:39:07] [SPEAKER_00]: You're going to get more nightmares.

[00:39:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Trying to get people excited about it.

[00:39:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, now people are going to be worried about the Murder Sheet Army that got conscripted into it

[00:39:14] [SPEAKER_01]: by buying the frigging T-shirt.

[00:39:17] [SPEAKER_00]: I should also mention this is the last cheat sheet before Christmas.

[00:39:22] [SPEAKER_00]: So Merry Christmas.

[00:39:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Happy holidays if you don't celebrate Christmas.

[00:39:28] [SPEAKER_00]: And if you're disappointed, if people say, oh, I really wanted a shirt.

[00:39:34] [SPEAKER_00]: I didn't get one for Christmas.

[00:39:35] [SPEAKER_00]: You can give shirts year-round.

[00:39:37] [SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't have to be for Christmas.

[00:39:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:39:39] [SPEAKER_01]: It's not fixed to any one point.

[00:39:43] [SPEAKER_00]: That's one of the great things about the shirts.

[00:39:44] [SPEAKER_00]: You can give them out anytime.

[00:39:46] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[00:39:47] [SPEAKER_01]: And if you, you know, it's a situation where if your loved ones don't know what to buy

[00:39:53] [SPEAKER_01]: for you, maybe send them an episode on the Murder Sheet.

[00:39:55] [SPEAKER_01]: And you can always, like, if you don't want them to suffer through the whole thing, you

[00:39:59] [SPEAKER_01]: can just tell them, skip to the end.

[00:40:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Don't tell them that.

[00:40:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Actually, only do that for the cheat sheet because we don't do these ads in all the episodes.

[00:40:08] [SPEAKER_01]: They'll be just very confused otherwise.

[00:40:10] [SPEAKER_00]: So you are encouraging listeners to send others our episodes with the admonition, skip to the

[00:40:15] [SPEAKER_00]: end.

[00:40:15] [SPEAKER_01]: If they're a true crime person, they can listen.

[00:40:17] [SPEAKER_01]: But if not, I don't want them to.

[00:40:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Because if we're trying to get people to buy gifts for each other, they're going to be

[00:40:23] [SPEAKER_01]: like, what do you want me to buy a gift about this Guardian article?

[00:40:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Like, what are you talking about?

[00:40:27] [SPEAKER_00]: We also want people to listen to the program.

[00:40:29] [SPEAKER_00]: I know.

[00:40:29] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm just, don't let good be the enemy of, or perfect be the enemy of good.

[00:40:34] [SPEAKER_00]: So you're telling, tell your friends to skip the show.

[00:40:38] [SPEAKER_01]: It's all about the shirts now.

[00:40:40] [SPEAKER_01]: We got to upload these things.

[00:40:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Jesus, Anya.

[00:40:46] [SPEAKER_00]: We got to wrap this up soon because you're just getting worse and worse and spiraling and

[00:40:50] [SPEAKER_00]: destroying our audience.

[00:40:51] [SPEAKER_00]: You know what?

[00:40:51] [SPEAKER_00]: But I wanted to say that one thing we did at the end of the year last year is we had

[00:40:55] [SPEAKER_00]: an episode where we took questions.

[00:40:58] [SPEAKER_00]: We've already had some questions submitted on Facebook and through email.

[00:41:03] [SPEAKER_00]: If you have questions you'd like us to answer, they can be about the case.

[00:41:07] [SPEAKER_00]: They can be about any cases we've covered.

[00:41:10] [SPEAKER_00]: They can be about our book.

[00:41:11] [SPEAKER_00]: They can be about silly stuff.

[00:41:12] [SPEAKER_00]: They can be personal stuff.

[00:41:14] [SPEAKER_00]: Send them to us at murdersheet at gmail.com.

[00:41:16] [SPEAKER_00]: And we will try to do an episode where we answer as many of them as we can in an hour.

[00:41:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Probably won't be able to answer all of them.

[00:41:24] [SPEAKER_00]: I know we won't be able to answer all of them, but we'll get through as many as we can in

[00:41:28] [SPEAKER_00]: about an hour.

[00:41:28] [SPEAKER_01]: And I'll also add this.

[00:41:30] [SPEAKER_01]: If you are looking for like an early, I guess, like Christmas and August present for yourself,

[00:41:34] [SPEAKER_01]: definitely feel free to preorder our book, which is going to be about the Delphi case.

[00:41:38] [SPEAKER_01]: It's called Shadow of the Bridge.

[00:41:41] [SPEAKER_01]: And we'll be out in August.

[00:41:44] [SPEAKER_00]: But you can preorder it today.

[00:41:45] [SPEAKER_01]: You can preorder it right now.

[00:41:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Get it.

[00:41:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Don't even have to worry about it later.

[00:41:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Just get it done.

[00:41:49] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm the kind of person where I forget about things.

[00:41:52] [SPEAKER_01]: So I try to do things as quickly as possible or it won't get done.

[00:41:56] [SPEAKER_01]: So be like me.

[00:41:57] [SPEAKER_00]: And if you buy the book, don't skip to the end.

[00:42:00] [SPEAKER_01]: No, don't.

[00:42:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, there's no book.

[00:42:01] [SPEAKER_01]: There's not going to be a shirt ad at the end of the book.

[00:42:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Isn't there?

[00:42:05] [SPEAKER_01]: No.

[00:42:07] [SPEAKER_01]: No, Kevin.

[00:42:08] [SPEAKER_01]: There's not.

[00:42:10] [SPEAKER_00]: Isn't there like an author's note at the end?

[00:42:13] [SPEAKER_00]: Can we like mention the shirts in passing and the author's note?

[00:42:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, my God.

[00:42:17] [SPEAKER_01]: That would just be in snow.

[00:42:19] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:42:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe just a weird illustration of you modeling a shirt.

[00:42:23] [SPEAKER_00]: In like my author's photo.

[00:42:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:42:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, God.

[00:42:26] [SPEAKER_01]: That would be.

[00:42:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, geez.

[00:42:28] [SPEAKER_01]: No.

[00:42:28] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm just cringing thinking about that.

[00:42:31] [SPEAKER_01]: No.

[00:42:31] [SPEAKER_01]: The book will be an ad-free zone.

[00:42:34] [SPEAKER_00]: But it may have like an author's picture of you with like a really big hat.

[00:42:38] [SPEAKER_01]: No.

[00:42:40] [SPEAKER_01]: It won't.

[00:42:41] [SPEAKER_01]: It won't have that either.

[00:42:42] [SPEAKER_01]: But thanks for trying.

[00:42:43] [SPEAKER_00]: Just a huge, huge hat.

[00:42:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Why do you want that?

[00:42:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Make me look ridiculous.

[00:42:47] [SPEAKER_00]: I think everybody can agree that the shirts are great and Anya looks wonderful in a big hat.

[00:42:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, my God.

[00:42:54] [SPEAKER_01]: That's very nice of you.

[00:42:55] [SPEAKER_01]: But that's.

[00:42:57] [SPEAKER_01]: No.

[00:42:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Are we done?

[00:43:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Merry Christmas and happy holidays.

[00:43:05] [SPEAKER_00]: And don't skip to the end.

[00:43:06] [SPEAKER_00]: Don't tell people here's a great show.

[00:43:08] [SPEAKER_00]: Skip to the end.

[00:43:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Because if people's first exposure to the program is the ad at the end, we've lost a listener for life.

[00:43:19] [SPEAKER_00]: Is that what you want?

[00:43:23] [SPEAKER_00]: Your disastrous plan.

[00:43:26] [SPEAKER_01]: The only people who are willing to put up with this are people like, okay, well, I'll give them one more chance.

[00:43:32] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm just horrified by your scheme.

[00:43:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, my God.

[00:43:35] [SPEAKER_00]: How short-sighted it was.

[00:43:37] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm trying my best here.

[00:43:39] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't even know whose ad it is.

[00:43:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Is this my ad or your ad?

[00:43:44] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't even know.

[00:43:45] [SPEAKER_01]: You started having me recite the email or the website information.

[00:43:49] [SPEAKER_01]: So I don't know what's going on.

[00:43:52] [SPEAKER_00]: It's everybody's ad because it's the Christmas season.

[00:43:55] [SPEAKER_01]: It's the people's ad.

[00:43:58] [SPEAKER_00]: Hit the button.

[00:43:59] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, all right.

[00:44:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks so much for listening to The Murder Sheet.

[00:44:03] [SPEAKER_00]: If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us at murdersheet at gmail dot com.

[00:44:12] [SPEAKER_00]: If you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[00:44:21] [SPEAKER_01]: If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com slash murdersheet.

[00:44:31] [SPEAKER_01]: If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www.buymeacoffee.com slash murdersheet.

[00:44:41] [SPEAKER_01]: We very much appreciate any support.

[00:44:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for The Murder Sheet, and who you can find on the web at kevintg.com.

[00:44:54] [SPEAKER_01]: If you're looking to talk with other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join The Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook.

[00:45:02] [SPEAKER_01]: We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much.

[00:45:08] [SPEAKER_01]: We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages.

[00:45:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks again for listening.

[00:45:16] [SPEAKER_01]: So it's the holiday season right now, and you might be looking for things to gift both your loved ones and perhaps yourself for some self-care.

[00:45:29] [SPEAKER_01]: And one thing we'd like you to keep in mind is we have a wonderful sponsor called Via Hemp.

[00:45:34] [SPEAKER_01]: This is a company that makes it possible for us to do our show.

[00:45:38] [SPEAKER_01]: They support us, and so supporting them also supports us.

[00:45:42] [SPEAKER_01]: And they've got some really cool deals for Murder Sheet listeners who are interested.

[00:45:45] [SPEAKER_01]: If you're 21 and older, you can go to viahemp.com.

[00:45:49] [SPEAKER_01]: That's V-I-I-A-H-E-M-P.com, and you can get 15% off their products, which are these amazing, premium, award-winning THC and THC-free gummies.

[00:46:01] [SPEAKER_01]: They've also got things like topicals, drops, vapes.

[00:46:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Each one of them is crafted with a specific mood or effect in mind.

[00:46:08] [SPEAKER_00]: That is neat.

[00:46:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Plus, I'd like to say in the ad we've run on the show about this, you in particular talked about how their product, in particular the Zen product, helps you fall asleep.

[00:46:23] [SPEAKER_00]: You're not the only one in this marriage who has trouble falling asleep, and so that project has also helped me.

[00:46:28] [SPEAKER_00]: It's really difficult to settle down at night sometimes, especially doing this podcast and looking at some of the things we look at and some of the things we have to think about.

[00:46:37] [SPEAKER_00]: It's hard to let that go, and so I find this very helpful to help relax at the end of the day.

[00:46:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's a nice CBD, CBN thing.

[00:46:46] [SPEAKER_01]: So it's THC-free.

[00:46:47] [SPEAKER_01]: They have a lot of THC-free stuff too, and that's something that you can look into.

[00:46:52] [SPEAKER_01]: THC is not your thing.

[00:46:54] [SPEAKER_01]: You're not out of luck there, and we use their CBD products, and that is one that I really do enjoy.

[00:47:00] [SPEAKER_01]: It's sort of like helping your brain shut off because I think you and I are both kind of anxious, so we'll be up at night like, oh, did we do that?

[00:47:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Should we make a list for tomorrow?

[00:47:09] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's like, just go to bed.

[00:47:11] [SPEAKER_01]: And so basically what the CBD does is kind of yells at our brains to just go to bed, which we need.

[00:47:16] [SPEAKER_00]: Did we make a list for tomorrow?

[00:47:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, God, Kevin.

[00:47:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe I should go get some of this stuff.

[00:47:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Don't start.

[00:47:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Have some zen.

[00:47:25] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm really stressing out here, Anya.

[00:47:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Kevin, take your zen.

[00:47:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Take your zen and shut up.

[00:47:33] [SPEAKER_00]: So this product has been a blessing for Anya in more ways than one because it does help me shut up.

[00:47:38] [SPEAKER_00]: Because it helps me relax.

[00:47:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Shuts them down.

[00:47:41] [SPEAKER_01]: No, but truly this is – and it's not just anxiety or sleep.

[00:47:46] [SPEAKER_01]: They've got stuff for all kinds of things.

[00:47:49] [SPEAKER_01]: You can experiment with microdosing.

[00:47:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Some of them just boost your mood.

[00:47:54] [SPEAKER_01]: It's just – like, whatever you can think of, they probably have it.

[00:47:57] [SPEAKER_01]: So go to their website.

[00:47:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Check it out and see if there's anything that might be interesting for you.

[00:48:01] [SPEAKER_00]: And let them know we sent you.

[00:48:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, please do let them know we sent you.

[00:48:04] [SPEAKER_01]: And just know that I think this ships legally to most states.

[00:48:07] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's very much by the book in that sense.

[00:48:11] [SPEAKER_01]: And it'll ship in discrete packaging.

[00:48:13] [SPEAKER_01]: So in case you're worried, in case your anxiety is getting the best of you, that's something to note.

[00:48:18] [SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, I guess that kind of wraps it up.

[00:48:21] [SPEAKER_01]: But we just want to thank Viya again for sponsoring us.

[00:48:24] [SPEAKER_01]: This really helps us out.

[00:48:25] [SPEAKER_01]: And when you support our sponsors, you're directly supporting us, especially if you're using our code because that lets the sponsor know that, you know, that we sent you.

[00:48:32] [SPEAKER_01]: So, again, this holiday season, gift yourself some peace of mind.

[00:48:37] [SPEAKER_01]: If you're 21 and older, head to viahemp.com and use the code MSHEET to receive 15% off.

[00:48:43] [SPEAKER_01]: That's V-I-I-A hemp.com and use code MSHEET at checkout.

[00:48:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Please support our show and tell them we sent you.

[00:48:51] [SPEAKER_01]: And this holiday season, enhance your everyday with Viya.

[00:48:54] [SPEAKER_00]: And put that on your list of things to do tomorrow.

[00:48:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.