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[00:00:37] That's not just the sound of that first sip of morning joe.
[00:00:40] It's the sound of someone shopping for a car on Carvana from the comfort of home. That's a good blend.
[00:00:45] It's time to take it easy, like answering some easy questions to get pre-qualified for a car in minutes.
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[00:01:08] It's the sound of someone shopping for a car on Carvana from the comfort of home. That's a good blend.
[00:01:13] It's time to take it easy, like answering some easy questions to get pre-qualified for a car in minutes.
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[00:01:24] Visit Carvana.com or download the app to experience car shopping the way it should be. Convenient, comfortable.
[00:01:32] Content warning. This episode includes discussion of murder and violence, including the murder of a pregnant woman.
[00:01:39] Today on the cheat sheet we're going to be taking you all around the country to a number of different locales for some cases.
[00:01:46] One of these cases is something we have covered in the past.
[00:01:49] Interestingly enough, these pair off into groups of two pretty easily.
[00:01:54] In Indiana we'll talk about a case that's definitely murder, but competency is in question.
[00:01:59] In Michigan we'll talk about a case where something definitely very bad happened, but is it even murder?
[00:02:05] We're going to talk about revenge attacks of different types in Kansas and South Dakota.
[00:02:10] And then we're going to talk about the murder of a pregnant woman.
[00:02:14] We're going to talk about revenge attacks of different types in Kansas and South Dakota.
[00:02:19] And we're going to talk about a case where someone may have not seen anything in Illinois.
[00:02:24] And then a case where unfortunately no one saw anything in Pennsylvania.
[00:02:29] My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist.
[00:02:32] And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.
[00:02:34] And this is the Murder Sheet.
[00:02:36] We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases.
[00:02:42] We're the Murder Sheet.
[00:02:44] And this is the Cheat Sheet. Mayors and Mayhem.
[00:02:48] Before we begin though, I think we want to take a little bit of time to shout out our friends Alice and Brett from the Prosecutors Podcast.
[00:03:43] They recently published a piece on Fox News, an opinion piece called The Dark Side of True Crime.
[00:03:51] We're going to link to that in our show notes.
[00:03:53] I think it is a very necessary read for anyone who cares about true crime, creators and listeners alike.
[00:04:01] And who may be concerned about the direction our beloved genre is sort of slouching in at this moment in my view.
[00:04:08] What do you think Kevin?
[00:04:09] I think it was a great piece. I recommend it.
[00:04:12] So check that out. It talks about basically how we have some creators and instigators who are using true crime cases,
[00:04:19] especially high profile ones, to sort of work out their anger issues and emotional problems.
[00:04:23] And that's not appropriate for anybody.
[00:04:25] And people should stop doing that.
[00:04:28] So check it out and hopefully it can start a good conversation around that.
[00:04:33] Yes, great article. It's a bit more nuanced than your pithy summary, but it's well worth reading.
[00:04:40] It is much more nuanced and well articulated, but that is what is happening.
[00:04:44] I'm sure people who know know.
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[00:06:46] Now, let's go to our backyard, Indianapolis.
[00:06:50] And Kevin, this case is going to blow your mind because this is going to turn into a veritable stroll down memory lane for us somehow.
[00:06:59] Yeah, you refused to tell me the details about this case because you said I want to surprise you when we're recording.
[00:07:05] Well, Kevin is a man who just wants to know Christmas presents ahead of time and all this stuff.
[00:07:10] And sometimes it's fun to just get a valid and true reaction as you're going through it.
[00:07:17] So I thought it would be interesting to kind of spring some of this on you last minute.
[00:07:21] But the fact is when I react to things, I'm usually understated.
[00:07:24] People can't even tell when I'm serious or not.
[00:07:26] So it's not like I'm going to say, oh no!
[00:07:28] My mouth goes agog and everything.
[00:07:31] Oh man, I'm really disappointed then.
[00:07:33] I was really hoping you'd jump out of your chair and trip over and run out of the house.
[00:07:37] So then I'd have to do the cheat sheet all by myself.
[00:07:41] That's your secret dream.
[00:07:43] That's my secret nightmare.
[00:07:45] So Anya, what do you think about this?
[00:07:47] Pretty good.
[00:07:48] Pretty awful, Anya.
[00:07:50] No one wants to listen to that.
[00:07:52] People will unsubscribe en masse.
[00:07:55] So this is a case in Indianapolis.
[00:07:58] This is the one that we have covered before.
[00:08:00] This is the case of David Heiner.
[00:08:02] This is a man who is accused of murdering two women on the east side of Indianapolis.
[00:08:07] And I would describe this as if the prosecution's arguments are factual and correct
[00:08:13] and this man is in fact guilty,
[00:08:15] then this is the case where I think we had a nascent serial killer
[00:08:19] because he targeted two victims, Shannon Juanita Lassier and Marian Weiss.
[00:08:25] They both were older white women who were sort of out in the same area at night,
[00:08:30] killed in a very similar way, dumped in a similar area.
[00:08:35] The whole thing just strikes me as if this had kept going,
[00:08:39] this would certainly be a serial killer case.
[00:08:42] So he was arrested and now he is facing trial for murder.
[00:08:51] The two prosecutors are Amy Jacobson and Anne Frangos
[00:08:54] who are deputy prosecutors with Marion County.
[00:08:57] Evan Dominguez and Laura Pitts are for the defense.
[00:09:00] They're Marion County public defender agency lawyers.
[00:09:03] And the judge is Judge Jennifer Harrison.
[00:09:07] Do you know why that name may sound familiar to you, Kevin?
[00:09:11] Well of course that's the judge in the Caden Smith case that we discussed last year.
[00:09:16] Absolutely. So that's one stop on the memory lane train.
[00:09:20] This is a judge who attracted some controversy in the Caden Smith case
[00:09:24] when she threw out the gun evidence in that case,
[00:09:27] which was later put back in by the appeals court.
[00:09:30] So this is another case she's taking on and she's making rulings in this one as well.
[00:09:35] And in addition, this is another thing that kind of echoes
[00:09:39] and I just wanted to bring it up because I think a lot of people are so focused on Delphi
[00:09:43] regarding cameras in the courtroom.
[00:09:45] Cindy Herbert, a hardworking producer at local station WTHR,
[00:09:49] you may recognize her name.
[00:09:50] She's made a lot of filings in Delphi asking for cameras to be allowed in the courtroom.
[00:09:54] She did the same here in February and April.
[00:09:56] Both were shot down or both were, you know, Harrison ruled against both.
[00:10:00] That's not really too unusual in Indiana.
[00:10:03] Cameras in courtrooms have really not been a thing.
[00:10:07] It's only been allowed very recently.
[00:10:09] So it doesn't necessarily surprise me that we're seeing judges be slow
[00:10:13] to allow that, especially since there are downsides to it.
[00:10:18] So anyway, some other familiar things.
[00:10:21] Prosecutor Jacobson in March filed a protective order asking for
[00:10:26] there be limits to what the defense can do with the discovery.
[00:10:29] Don't duplicate it.
[00:10:30] Don't spread it around.
[00:10:31] Only let your staff and paralegals look at it.
[00:10:34] Don't let the defendant look at it unless you're there with him.
[00:10:37] You know, if you have experts look at it, make sure they sign paperwork
[00:10:41] so that they don't leak it all over the Internet and it gets on YouTube.
[00:10:45] They didn't literally say that, but basically that's the point of this.
[00:10:48] And the judge granted that.
[00:10:50] But here's where it really gets familiar.
[00:10:52] The prosecution side had a subpoena ducus tecum with the Miami County
[00:10:58] Prosecutor's Office.
[00:11:00] So why don't you explain our long history of covering the Miami
[00:11:06] County Prosecutor's Office?
[00:11:08] Well, give me a moment because my mouth is agog.
[00:11:11] Oh no.
[00:11:12] I know what you were expecting there.
[00:11:14] I just was like, it's fun to see some familiar faces in this.
[00:11:17] We covered the Miami County Prosecutor's Office pretty extensively
[00:11:22] because they did frankly exemplary work on the Kagan-Klein case.
[00:11:28] A case that they spent years working on.
[00:11:32] And one of the real stars of Jeff Zinkovic's office down there
[00:11:36] of course is Courtney Allwine.
[00:11:38] Yes, and she's in this too.
[00:11:40] Courtney Allwine comes up in this case because essentially in Miami
[00:11:46] County, Heiner previously faced charges for aggravated battery
[00:11:50] and battery resulting in moderate bodily injury.
[00:11:53] And the case in Miami County that he was involved in dragged on
[00:11:57] for years.
[00:11:58] Courtney Allwine was the lead prosecutor on it.
[00:12:01] Gary Cook started for the defense and then he withdrew and then
[00:12:05] William Berkshire stepped in.
[00:12:07] Of course, he ended up representing Kagan-Klein as well.
[00:12:09] So some familiar faces.
[00:12:11] The judge was J. David Grund of Miami Superior Court.
[00:12:16] So not to his far.
[00:12:17] That's not a familiar face at all.
[00:12:18] No, but I don't want to leave him out just because we've never
[00:12:20] covered him before.
[00:12:21] That would be rude.
[00:12:22] So on June 14th, 2022, Berkshire asked the judge to appoint
[00:12:28] two psychiatrists to determine whether or not Heiner was competent.
[00:12:35] He said that he was not able to have any meaningful conversations
[00:12:39] with his client and that he doubted that his client comprehended
[00:12:44] the charges against him and could even assist with his defense.
[00:12:48] So Dr. George Parker and Dr. Steven Ross from IU Health
[00:12:53] Neuroscience Center and Clinical and Forensic Psychological
[00:12:56] Services of Indiana came in and they declared that he was
[00:13:01] not competent.
[00:13:03] So he was turned over to the Division of Mental Health and
[00:13:06] Addiction until he became competent with treatment.
[00:13:09] And then eventually he had a plea deal where he pled guilty
[00:13:16] and was sentenced.
[00:13:18] It looks like to mostly time served if I'm reading this correctly.
[00:13:25] So this was certainly not a particularly horrifying crime.
[00:13:31] It's not a murder.
[00:13:32] It's a battery case.
[00:13:33] So I think that that does make sense.
[00:13:36] Although obviously it's unfortunate that he's since gone on to
[00:13:39] possibly kill some people.
[00:13:41] It does speak to somebody who has a history of pretty bad mental
[00:13:45] health issues if it's affecting him in that way where there
[00:13:49] is a history of violence, right?
[00:13:52] And so this has kind of become a bit of a source of contention
[00:13:57] within the case because Marion County subpoenaed Miami County
[00:14:01] for all his psychiatric records.
[00:14:04] And in addition to that, they've subpoenaed community hospital
[00:14:07] east, north and south for various operative records, emergency
[00:14:12] room notes, trauma sheet notes, surgery notes, consultation
[00:14:16] notes.
[00:14:17] And for some reason I maybe you can help unpack this.
[00:14:23] Something around Center of Hope records including but not
[00:14:27] I don't know why the Marion County prosecutor wants that,
[00:14:36] but that is something that they want.
[00:14:38] I'm sure there's a good reason.
[00:14:41] I'm sure there is too, but they're not going to be getting it
[00:14:44] because the judge ruled against them.
[00:14:46] David Heiner's team motioned to continue the trial.
[00:14:49] They said they needed more time and that the state did not
[00:14:52] object.
[00:14:53] They also objected to both subpoenas and third party records
[00:14:56] requests.
[00:14:57] They said, first of all, that they weren't contacted prior
[00:14:59] to the state filing those requests.
[00:15:03] And they also said that the defendant did not waive his rights.
[00:15:06] This was a violation of his Health Insurance Portability and
[00:15:09] Accountability Act rights or HIPAA as it's more commonly known.
[00:15:14] They wanted a judge to quash the request.
[00:15:17] And for Miami County, they argued that mental health records
[00:15:20] are not discoverable or admissible without consent of the patient
[00:15:24] and that the state did not meet the requirements and essentially
[00:15:30] should not be allowed.
[00:15:31] So there have been a couple of recent attorney conferences.
[00:15:35] The judge has denied the community health records and said
[00:15:39] the state had until May 10th to prove legal authority or to
[00:15:42] provide legal authority.
[00:15:44] A recent April 18th hearing was attorney only.
[00:15:48] So I don't know what's going on with the other mental health
[00:15:51] records, but it's just interesting to see how sometimes names
[00:15:55] kind of come up again and again in cases.
[00:15:58] It's a small world, the legal world of India.
[00:16:00] Yeah, I was just excited because we always, I mean, Miami
[00:16:03] County is great and I always like going up to Peru.
[00:16:06] It's a great town.
[00:16:08] So the fact that there was a Peru angle here made me happy.
[00:16:11] Speaking of Peru, I think we need to get back up there soon.
[00:16:15] If for no other reason, the I'm sure Cole Porter festival,
[00:16:20] the show called Porter festival should be just around the corner.
[00:16:23] That's always around Cole Porter's birthday, which is everyone
[00:16:26] who listens to this show as well aware is on June 9th.
[00:16:30] I think this also raises sometimes when somebody has a history
[00:16:33] of violence, there's a tendency in the media and I'm sure
[00:16:36] I've had these thoughts as well at times to say like, oh,
[00:16:39] well, why didn't somebody just throw the book at him back
[00:16:42] in the day and then he wouldn't have been out to kill again?
[00:16:45] And in some cases that is a fair criticism in my view.
[00:16:48] But in other cases, if someone's pleading guilty, there's a limit
[00:16:51] to what they can be sentenced to in certain crimes.
[00:16:55] Like the judges, prosecutors, defense attorneys are not just able
[00:16:59] to do whatever.
[00:17:00] There's a system in place.
[00:17:01] There are sentencing guidelines.
[00:17:03] There are all sorts of rules about how prosecutors can even
[00:17:07] stack charges.
[00:17:09] So oftentimes the outcome when it comes to something like this
[00:17:13] is more locked in than you would think.
[00:17:16] There's not necessarily a ton of discretion.
[00:17:19] And some people would argue that that's bad, that it was better
[00:17:23] when judges had a lot more leeway to look at the individual
[00:17:27] before them and make a decision about a sentencing more uniquely
[00:17:31] tailored to that person.
[00:17:33] Because if you talk to judges behind the scenes today,
[00:17:38] they sometimes tell you that, oh, this person that came
[00:17:42] before me, they were convicted.
[00:17:43] I had to give them a sentence.
[00:17:45] It was like, frankly, worse than I would have if I'd had
[00:17:49] more leeway.
[00:17:50] Or alternatively, they would have said, well, maybe I gave this
[00:17:53] – I was forced to give this person a lesser sentence
[00:17:56] than I would have liked to, but my hands were tied.
[00:18:00] Yeah.
[00:18:01] And with that, I just think it's important to remind people
[00:18:03] it's better to really look into it and sort of see why
[00:18:06] and what the circumstances were and what the charges were
[00:18:09] before necessarily castigating public officials, I would say.
[00:18:14] And I will also add that, yeah, I mean, I think that there
[00:18:18] needs to be a reckoning in this country about mental illness
[00:18:21] and things like that and providing more support,
[00:18:23] providing more money, more resources.
[00:18:25] But in situations where someone is, you know, perpetually
[00:18:29] mentally ill and not – you know, treatment is not working,
[00:18:35] then there needs to be conversations about what the best thing
[00:18:38] for that person and for society is.
[00:18:40] Because being out to be violent against other people
[00:18:43] or possibly violent to oneself is not a good outcome
[00:18:46] and that's not a safe outcome.
[00:18:48] So I don't think currently the justice system has the resources
[00:18:52] or the ability to really deal with this.
[00:18:54] I think it has to come from not just the justice system,
[00:18:57] it has to come from society as a whole.
[00:18:59] It can't – that's not a solution.
[00:19:02] But I think unfortunately the justice system is overburdened
[00:19:05] with a lot of cases that do have a mental health component
[00:19:08] and that is unfortunate because it's like probably preventative
[00:19:12] measures could help ease that strain quite a lot, I would imagine.
[00:19:16] I would agree. Is it time to move northward up to the great state of Michigan?
[00:19:22] Absolutely.
[00:19:23] So my sources for this are actually some press releases
[00:19:27] that came from the Michigan State Attorney General's office
[00:19:30] as well as a press release from the Michigan State Police
[00:19:35] and then stories in the Detroit Free Press and on WOOD TV.
[00:19:42] One thing I find interesting is balancing different interests in society
[00:19:50] and try to figure out what weight we should give to this interest
[00:19:54] as compared to this other interest.
[00:19:56] And it's also interesting to me to look at cases
[00:20:02] that someone has said this is murder
[00:20:06] and they don't sound like a traditional murder.
[00:20:09] So this case sort of jumped out at me for those reasons.
[00:20:14] And this is a case that begins April 17th, 2024.
[00:20:20] Sergeant Keely of the Michigan State Police,
[00:20:26] Sergeant Brian Keely of the Michigan State Police
[00:20:29] is out with a group of other state police officers
[00:20:34] part of the Fugitive Task Force
[00:20:38] and they are looking for fugitives to apprehend.
[00:20:41] And they see a man named Samuel Sterling.
[00:20:46] And Mr. Sterling is a 25-year-old man who has some outstanding warrants
[00:20:51] and he is on foot.
[00:20:53] So some officers start pursuing Sterling on foot.
[00:20:58] Other officers start sort of aggressively chasing after him in vehicles.
[00:21:04] And the chase ends up with all of these people kind of converging
[00:21:10] in the parking lot of a Burger King.
[00:21:13] And the vehicle driven by Mr. Keely is an SUV, an unmarked SUV.
[00:21:20] And it ends up striking Mr. Sterling
[00:21:26] and sort of pinning him against the outside wall of the Burger King.
[00:21:30] And there's a video of all of this.
[00:21:34] And Mr. Sterling speaks on the video about being in a great deal of pain.
[00:21:40] He's transported to a hospital where he receives treatment.
[00:21:46] But unfortunately, tragically, he passes away a few hours later.
[00:21:53] And so one thing is when we balance interests, let's look at that.
[00:21:59] When is it okay for police to aggressively chase suspects?
[00:22:05] Because I think we can agree that when police are chasing suspects,
[00:22:10] whether on foot or in vehicles,
[00:22:13] that becomes an inherently dangerous situation.
[00:22:17] So we can't always say let's always prioritize the chase over anything else
[00:22:23] because you risk people getting hurt,
[00:22:26] not just the person being chased, but an innocent passerby.
[00:22:31] Or the police themselves in certain instances.
[00:22:33] I would say that to me it's a necessary chase
[00:22:38] if there is imminent risk and harm to the public or to individuals as a result.
[00:22:46] So what I mean is like if someone has a gun
[00:22:49] and is shooting people and then runs,
[00:22:52] and if they get away, they will presumably continue this rampage.
[00:22:57] That feels like a chase that could be necessary or you could argue is necessary.
[00:23:02] That makes a lot of sense.
[00:23:04] In this case, Mr. Sterling did not pose an immediate threat to himself or others.
[00:23:13] And also when you're chasing a man who is on foot and you're in a big SUV,
[00:23:21] that also becomes a rather dangerous situation.
[00:23:24] Yes, it's an inherently dangerous situation.
[00:23:28] Because you are making split-second driving choices.
[00:23:34] We've all driven cars.
[00:23:35] We know it's hard sometimes to be able to predict what exactly the car does.
[00:23:41] And so it seems to be a very risky situation.
[00:23:45] And there's no room for error.
[00:23:46] It's not like if you're chasing on foot and you bump into the guy,
[00:23:50] he might fall down and scrape his knee.
[00:23:52] If you are in a car chasing a person on foot,
[00:23:55] then the calculus is obviously considerably different
[00:23:58] because you're in a massive hulking heavy vehicle made of metal
[00:24:01] and this is a human body in front of you.
[00:24:04] You're going to win in some sort of collision.
[00:24:08] And there's like no margin for error.
[00:24:10] Yeah, there's no margin for error.
[00:24:12] Exactly.
[00:24:13] So that is definitely dangerous.
[00:24:16] And as I say,
[00:24:19] pretty much this entire encounter has been captured on body cams
[00:24:24] and vehicle cams.
[00:24:26] And it was released by the Michigan State Police.
[00:24:30] It's available to be viewed on YouTube and elsewhere.
[00:24:33] I don't recommend it.
[00:24:35] It's not pleasant viewing.
[00:24:37] But I think we all assume that when Mr. Keeley woke up that morning,
[00:24:45] he didn't say, I'm going to go out and kill a man.
[00:24:47] I'm going to go out and cause an accident, which kills a man.
[00:24:51] But if he was acting recklessly or negligently
[00:24:56] and a person dies as a result of that,
[00:25:01] then under our justice system and under basic morality,
[00:25:05] he needs to be held accountable.
[00:25:08] So this was investigated.
[00:25:10] And in fact, the attorney general of the state of Michigan
[00:25:15] has announced this week that she is filing charges.
[00:25:19] She's filing one count murder, second degree,
[00:25:23] which is a life offense or alternatively,
[00:25:25] one count of involuntary manslaughter,
[00:25:27] which is a 15 year felony.
[00:25:30] And prior to filing charges,
[00:25:32] some police chiefs and others had spoken out saying this was a bad situation,
[00:25:37] that this man was not posing a threat
[00:25:42] and that this was excessive to be chasing a man on foot in an SUV.
[00:25:48] I have a question because I agree with all of this.
[00:25:50] And I agree with that assessment that this was a problematic chase.
[00:25:55] This was not, the situation didn't warrant this.
[00:25:59] Is it murder?
[00:26:01] And my question is that because this is the second sort of interesting
[00:26:05] second degree murder charge we've heard of from this office, right?
[00:26:09] Yes.
[00:26:10] The other one being there was the case of a meningitis outbreak
[00:26:15] that killed people in Michigan as a result of the negligence of somebody
[00:26:19] who was in the laboratory.
[00:26:21] And that was another one where I felt a little bit iffy about is that murder.
[00:26:26] Now I'm not,
[00:26:27] I'm certainly not saying you shouldn't file charges on something like this
[00:26:31] because I just am like,
[00:26:32] to me murder is a very specific charge.
[00:26:38] And I also,
[00:26:40] I get concerned if I feel like prosecutors are overcharging something because
[00:26:44] that is a good way to lose the public's confidence if you're basically writing
[00:26:47] checks that you can't cash.
[00:26:50] So second degree murder in Michigan,
[00:26:53] does do you believe that these cases fit that?
[00:26:59] I don't, excuse me.
[00:27:00] I don't think there was intent here.
[00:27:02] Does there have to be intent?
[00:27:04] Not for second degree murder,
[00:27:06] but there clearly was negligence.
[00:27:10] I was struck a former police chief and now police training consultant named
[00:27:15] Melvin T. Tucker,
[00:27:19] Melvin L. Tucker.
[00:27:21] He had a comment about this.
[00:27:24] He said,
[00:27:25] I would opine that Sterling was not posing a threat of serious bodily harm or
[00:27:29] death to anyone at the time of the incident.
[00:27:32] So there was not an immediate need for his apprehension and the use of a
[00:27:36] vehicle to chase down a fleeing suspect on foot was not a reasonable action.
[00:27:41] Even a trip and fall by Sterling would have had serious consequences and the
[00:27:44] driver of the vehicle could not respond quick enough to prevent striking him.
[00:27:48] I think,
[00:27:49] I think that's compelling.
[00:27:50] And if you are in a position where society has trusted you to make life and
[00:27:56] death decisions and there are basic procedures and policies in place,
[00:28:01] which indicate that a particular course of action is risky and could cause
[00:28:05] death and you pursue that and someone dies,
[00:28:10] you have to be held accountable.
[00:28:15] I wouldn't object if they ended up pleading it down to something smaller than
[00:28:20] that,
[00:28:21] but it fits the statutory definition of second degree murder.
[00:28:25] Because there is no intent.
[00:28:26] I think oftentimes people like myself think of murder.
[00:28:30] You think of first degree murder,
[00:28:32] you think of that kind of intent aspect of it or felony murder where there may
[00:28:38] not have been an intent to do that specifically,
[00:28:40] but you know there's there's commission of a felony that leads to the death of
[00:28:45] somebody.
[00:28:46] And so if this fits,
[00:28:48] you know,
[00:28:49] statutorily,
[00:28:50] then I think then that is within the prosecution team's discretion to go for
[00:28:57] that.
[00:28:58] I also think it can be an effective strategy for a prosecutor to charge
[00:29:02] something like second degree murder and then be prepared to deal it down.
[00:29:06] Yeah.
[00:29:07] Because that just makes your job easier,
[00:29:08] frankly.
[00:29:09] So I think that's not a bad strategy necessarily as long as you're not
[00:29:15] overcharging.
[00:29:16] I think that would be the concern that anybody would have.
[00:29:19] But again,
[00:29:20] if it fits the law,
[00:29:21] then that's the law.
[00:29:22] So I think,
[00:29:23] you know,
[00:29:24] it's definitely seems like a tragic situation all around.
[00:29:28] So shall we move on to Topeka?
[00:29:34] Yes.
[00:29:35] Topeka,
[00:29:36] Kansas.
[00:29:37] This is a very upsetting case and it's one that I found very frustrating and
[00:29:45] I'm guessing that listeners are going to find it frustrating.
[00:29:50] And I told you a little bit about it and I think you found it frustrating.
[00:29:53] Yeah,
[00:29:54] yeah,
[00:29:55] I did.
[00:29:56] So this case begins with a murder that happened back in 2016 where two men
[00:30:07] basically forced themselves into an apartment where a 20 year old man was
[00:30:16] called.
[00:30:17] Camera Trotter is with her four year old child and Miss Trotter is pregnant.
[00:30:26] So they lock the child away and they're basically waiting for her boyfriend to
[00:30:32] come.
[00:30:33] And as they wait for the boyfriend to get home,
[00:30:36] they rape Miss Trotter.
[00:30:39] So then the boyfriend comes home and he has with him someone else,
[00:30:45] a woman with him,
[00:30:46] like a family member.
[00:30:48] The door opens,
[00:30:49] the family members see someone with a gun.
[00:30:51] She flees,
[00:30:52] she gets away,
[00:30:54] but the man is killed.
[00:30:57] And then the woman,
[00:30:58] Miss Trotter,
[00:30:59] who has been raped and assaulted and has been alone in the apartment with her
[00:31:06] child and with these killers for hours,
[00:31:09] she then tries to call 911 and she is murdered.
[00:31:16] And because her pregnancy is late term,
[00:31:22] this is considered to be a triple homicide.
[00:31:24] So her unborn fetus is also considered to be a murder victim.
[00:31:31] So sometime later they make an arrest in the case and the man they arrest in the
[00:31:39] case is a man named Yanez Sanford.
[00:31:43] And the case against him seems quite strong because the child that was locked
[00:31:50] away,
[00:31:51] she identifies him.
[00:31:53] The woman that came to the door with the murder victim and saw a man there
[00:32:00] armed,
[00:32:01] she identifies him.
[00:32:03] And there is,
[00:32:05] as I mentioned,
[00:32:06] Miss Trotter was raped and the semen in her is identified as semen belonging to
[00:32:14] Sanford.
[00:32:15] Are you kidding me?
[00:32:17] Because I know how this ends.
[00:32:18] Okay,
[00:32:19] that's okay.
[00:32:20] Go ahead.
[00:32:21] Sorry.
[00:32:23] Uh,
[00:32:24] he goes to trial.
[00:32:25] Mr.
[00:32:26] Sanford goes to trial earlier this year and he is acquitted.
[00:32:30] And they say,
[00:32:31] well,
[00:32:32] sure.
[00:32:33] The child identified him,
[00:32:35] but you know,
[00:32:36] kids can make mistakes and maybe the kids were just trying to please the
[00:32:40] prosecutor by giving them the right answers.
[00:32:43] And sure,
[00:32:44] this woman who came to the door,
[00:32:45] she identified him,
[00:32:47] but you know,
[00:32:48] she only saw him for a very short time.
[00:32:51] So how sure could she be?
[00:32:53] And yeah,
[00:32:54] sure.
[00:32:55] His semen is in the murder victim,
[00:32:57] but semen can stay in a body for up to a week.
[00:33:00] So who's to say maybe she had consensual sex with him,
[00:33:06] you know,
[00:33:07] days earlier and the semen was still in there.
[00:33:10] And they said that the defense said that even though there was no reason to
[00:33:14] believe that this woman was unfaithful to her boyfriend or was engaging in a
[00:33:20] relationship with this man.
[00:33:22] So he is acquitted.
[00:33:24] That's outrageous.
[00:33:26] It's a very strong case.
[00:33:28] Juries,
[00:33:29] juries get stuff wrong.
[00:33:30] I mean,
[00:33:31] we know the OJ Simpson case being a famous example of that.
[00:33:35] Juries get stuff wrong and it's,
[00:33:36] it's very unfortunate.
[00:33:38] And you wonder what else was at play in their minds going with this because
[00:33:41] that's just outrageous.
[00:33:44] Yeah.
[00:33:45] I can tell you the father of the murder victim was very upset and he had to
[00:33:50] be removed from the courtroom because he was,
[00:33:52] you know,
[00:33:53] crying out.
[00:33:55] It's a frustrating case.
[00:33:56] It's a frustrating case.
[00:33:57] It's very upsetting.
[00:34:01] But one thing we have to do,
[00:34:05] even though it's tough and difficult is we have to accept a verdict.
[00:34:10] Even if we're convinced to the marrow of our bones that it is incorrect,
[00:34:19] we can't engage in vigilante justice.
[00:34:23] Why do you bring that up,
[00:34:24] Kevin?
[00:34:26] The day after he was acquitted,
[00:34:28] this man reported to police that he was the victim of some sort of violent
[00:34:33] crime.
[00:34:34] And the details of that have not been released.
[00:34:37] And it's not even clear if this was in retaliation for the him being
[00:34:44] acquitted of a crime that there's pretty good evidence he's guilty of,
[00:34:49] but it seems like that's a reasonable hypothesis that someone out there was
[00:34:55] upset.
[00:34:56] This person seemed to get away with a triple homicide and chose to try to
[00:35:01] take matters into their own hands.
[00:35:03] And I can't stress enough.
[00:35:08] If a verdict doesn't go your way,
[00:35:12] don't take justice into your own hands because the consequences to you
[00:35:17] personally could be horrific.
[00:35:21] And in a situation like that,
[00:35:23] even if this man can't be held criminally responsible,
[00:35:28] there's always other options. Perhaps as a civil suit,
[00:35:31] he mentioned LJ Simpson.
[00:35:33] He was famously acquitted of the murders,
[00:35:35] but then he was held to be civilly responsible for them.
[00:35:39] Yeah. So I think as you said,
[00:35:43] no matter how frustrating or horrifying a jury's conclusions are,
[00:35:49] that's our system. You can't, you know,
[00:35:52] it's not for anyone to take justice into their own hands.
[00:35:55] You just have to accept it.
[00:35:56] And that can be difficult for people easier said than done if it's your loved
[00:35:59] one or someone you cared about. But ultimately that sort of reprisal will only
[00:36:06] get the person doing the reprising in trouble, frankly, in my view.
[00:36:11] And it seems this isn't really the thrust of Brett and Alice's article,
[00:36:18] but it does seem that there's a lot of cases out there where people seem to be
[00:36:24] wanting a very, very, very, very,
[00:36:27] very high standard of proof before they're willing to accept the guilt of
[00:36:32] someone. And sometimes the level of proof they seem to want seems to be close
[00:36:38] to impossible.
[00:36:40] It's unrealistic.
[00:36:41] It's not how life works and it's not the amount of certainty to me.
[00:36:45] If someone's in that space,
[00:36:46] it's like a foregone conclusion because they've already made up their mind and
[00:36:50] they're not going to accept something.
[00:36:52] So the goalposts are continuously moved. If I say to you, Kevin, I'll,
[00:36:57] I'll only,
[00:36:58] I'll only believe that our dog Lanny ate those cookies off the table if I see
[00:37:03] a picture of her standing on the counter and then you provide that to me.
[00:37:07] But, but were the, did her stomach show, you know, traces of cookies? Yes.
[00:37:13] Well,
[00:37:14] can we prove that those were the same exact cookies that were on the table at
[00:37:17] the time?
[00:37:18] We have a neighbor, we have a neighbor,
[00:37:20] maybe the neighbor fed Lanny some cookies.
[00:37:22] Maybe the neighbor did it or maybe, maybe the cookie,
[00:37:25] like maybe some other dog came in and did it with her and she was just left
[00:37:29] holding the bag, you know? And obviously, I mean,
[00:37:32] beyond a reasonable doubt is the standard. It's not, that's, I don't know.
[00:37:37] What do you make of it?
[00:37:40] Uh, it's an interesting trend and it is upsetting.
[00:37:45] I look at cases,
[00:37:46] including some that we've covered where evidence of guilt seems very,
[00:37:50] very clear and people seem to go through all sorts of contortions to try to
[00:37:58] avoid the obvious conclusions.
[00:38:01] I think there's a couple of factors behind this.
[00:38:03] I think the internet, uh,
[00:38:06] and the kind of communities that arise around true crime can easily be polluted
[00:38:11] with toxicity and conspiratorial thinking.
[00:38:14] That's one thing that influences people. Uh,
[00:38:17] I think that for true crime creators,
[00:38:19] there are monetary rewards for basically catering to conspiracy nonsense and
[00:38:26] that's people who are overtly doing it overtly.
[00:38:30] But I think it's also otherwise respectable outlets or journalists even can get
[00:38:36] caught up in this where it's a more interesting story if the guy is innocent,
[00:38:40] it's a more interesting story if a cult did it,
[00:38:42] it's a more interesting story if you know, uh,
[00:38:46] the parents are really guilty. I mean, that is, that is a problem.
[00:38:50] And then I think there is in many communities, perhaps understandably,
[00:38:54] a distrust of police, a distrust of prosecutors, a distrust of the system.
[00:38:58] And again, there can be rational reasons behind that, but it's not,
[00:39:02] does not necessarily, it certainly is,
[00:39:05] does not necessarily lead to the correct outcome in certain cases.
[00:39:10] And we all watch shows like Columbo where the criminals do a great job of,
[00:39:15] uh, framing other people.
[00:39:17] So maybe we tend to think that that happens in real life a lot more often than
[00:39:22] it does.
[00:39:23] Yeah. Or yeah, that's a really good point.
[00:39:25] There's definitely, I think fiction influences people's views on crimes.
[00:39:30] And I mean, in law and order, I, this always drives me nuts in law and order.
[00:39:34] There's a, you know,
[00:39:36] the first person who comes up was like the person who would have done it in
[00:39:40] real life. You know, somebody with like, you know,
[00:39:42] severe mental illness or somebody who had like some sort of grudge against the
[00:39:45] victim. And then inevitably there's a twist and it's the guy you thought was okay,
[00:39:48] but he's really the killer. And yeah, that certainly happens in real life.
[00:39:52] But oftentimes things are just pretty simple. It's not,
[00:39:56] not everything is a convoluted murder plot.
[00:39:59] And I think that's hard to believe because it's not interesting to read about
[00:40:03] simple crimes. It's much more interested,
[00:40:06] interesting to read about and engage with the convoluted ones or the uncertain
[00:40:11] ones.
[00:40:12] And I think we have a tendency to try to make everything overly complicated and
[00:40:17] to the point of like, it's absurd. But I think,
[00:40:20] people reading about crimes, I mean, just reading,
[00:40:24] reading local news can,
[00:40:25] can help you because you'll understand how,
[00:40:28] how violent this world is and how clear cut things can often be. Is that,
[00:40:31] is that it for the infuriating Kansas case?
[00:40:33] Yeah, why don't you take us to
[00:40:38] South Dakota.
[00:40:39] South Dakota.
[00:40:40] So my sources for this were NBC news,
[00:40:44] Hilo TV, USA Today,
[00:40:48] as well as Rapid City Journal, Casper,
[00:40:50] Star Tribune, Billings Gazette and the Associated Press,
[00:40:52] which were all access through newspapers.com.
[00:40:55] I really fell down a rabbit hole with this one. So,
[00:41:02] okay.
[00:41:03] So I saw a headline that a ex mayor of a small town in South Dakota
[00:41:10] murdered three people on Memorial day.
[00:41:15] And I thought, what? Like how does,
[00:41:18] I need to know everything about this.
[00:41:19] So I found out, fell down a rabbit hole.
[00:41:21] I looked into the ex mayor and I also looked into this town and I think it
[00:41:26] raises some interesting questions about policing,
[00:41:30] about sexual harassment and about power.
[00:41:35] So buckle in.
[00:41:38] So this man, Jay Ostrom,
[00:41:43] I hope I'm saying his name right.
[00:41:45] Cause I'm going to be saying it a lot.
[00:41:46] First comes up for me on newspapers.com in 1986.
[00:41:50] And this is a story out of Gillette, Wyoming.
[00:41:53] Hope I'm saying that right.
[00:41:56] A man who owned a, you know,
[00:41:58] was a bar owner seemingly talked about getting assaulted by two officers,
[00:42:02] including including Jay Ostrom.
[00:42:04] He was having an altercation with a patron of his bar out in the parking lot.
[00:42:08] And these two cops came up and started beating him and trying to get him
[00:42:11] out of the bar.
[00:42:12] Out in the parking lot.
[00:42:13] And these two cops came up and started beating him and choking him until he
[00:42:16] passed out. So pretty serious,
[00:42:18] but ultimately a U S district judge found the two cops not guilty,
[00:42:25] but still that is a troubling incident.
[00:42:30] Ostrom continues to work at this Wyoming police department for a number of
[00:42:35] years. He,
[00:42:37] at some point kills a man named Warren Thomas in 1994.
[00:42:41] This situation was ruled a good shooting. Thomas shot himself,
[00:42:45] called 911, removed the bullets from his gun, went out to his yard,
[00:42:49] refused to drop the unloaded, you know,
[00:42:52] unbeknownst to anyone gun and then pointed at another officer and Ostrom
[00:42:57] shot him. So he went on administrative leave after that,
[00:43:01] but no disciplinary action because the division of criminal investigation
[00:43:05] cleared it. Then, you know,
[00:43:09] this, he basically sticks around until 2003 and he had worked for the city at
[00:43:16] that point for 22 years.
[00:43:18] Then he shows up again in Centerville, South Dakota.
[00:43:23] And he, this town, I mean,
[00:43:27] if you're from there or you're from around there,
[00:43:29] please send us an email because I want to know what the heck was going on here
[00:43:32] in the early two thousands.
[00:43:33] They could not keep a police chief to save their lives.
[00:43:39] One man, Rain Adamson, he was 27.
[00:43:43] He married an 18 year old two weeks just after she turned 18 after like dating
[00:43:50] for two weeks rather. And this was right after she turned 18.
[00:43:54] He quit being police chief to start a bar.
[00:43:58] Then he gets charged with sexually assaulting a 14 year old girl.
[00:44:00] He was cleared on that,
[00:44:01] but found guilty of witness tampering and providing alcohol to minors.
[00:44:04] This is the former police chief.
[00:44:05] Then around that time,
[00:44:06] his wife, Dana dies from a gunshot wound to the head.
[00:44:09] The autopsy's inconclusive.
[00:44:10] A lot of people believe that he murdered her in many situations like that.
[00:44:14] I'm a, I'm a natural skeptic.
[00:44:16] I'm not a fan of the fact that he's a victim of a murder.
[00:44:19] I'm not a fan of the fact that he's a victim of a murder.
[00:44:22] I'm not a fan of the fact that he's a victim of a murder.
[00:44:24] In many situations like that,
[00:44:25] I'm a,
[00:44:26] I'm a natural skeptic where I often think that suicides are the valid
[00:44:33] explanation and people maybe can't accept that.
[00:44:36] And it's not really a murder,
[00:44:38] but this is one of those ones where I have a lot of questions.
[00:44:40] And frankly,
[00:44:41] I don't necessarily think this was a suicide.
[00:44:43] I think this woman may have been murdered,
[00:44:45] but this has never gone anywhere.
[00:44:47] So that's police chief number one.
[00:44:50] Then a 25 year old man named Nolan Clark takes over as chief and he
[00:44:54] hires Ostrom.
[00:44:55] He ends up getting thrown out because he has a DUI.
[00:44:58] A third police chief shows up and then leaves on his own volition.
[00:45:02] He gets another job somewhere else.
[00:45:04] So that's not that bad.
[00:45:05] But meanwhile,
[00:45:06] Ostrom is kind of making his way off.
[00:45:08] He's taking weekend shifts.
[00:45:09] He eventually becomes the Turner County prosecutor,
[00:45:12] sheriff's deputy.
[00:45:14] And he then runs for a seat on the Centerville city council in 2008.
[00:45:19] He wins and he becomes Centerville's mayor in May of 2009.
[00:45:23] But here's where we run into more trouble with the police chief.
[00:45:27] So he's involved in hiring a woman to be his deputy.
[00:45:30] And he's going to be able to get her to work for him.
[00:45:33] And he's going to be able to get her to work for him.
[00:45:35] And he's going to be able to get her to work for him.
[00:45:37] And he's going to be able to get her to work for him.
[00:45:39] And here's where we run into more trouble with the police chief.
[00:45:41] So he's involved in hiring a woman named Rachel Koppman as the police
[00:45:46] chief.
[00:45:47] But in October, well, let's go back.
[00:45:50] In October of 2009,
[00:45:52] she sort of suddenly suspended by the city council and he told the
[00:45:56] Rapid City Journal,
[00:45:57] he couldn't get into personnel issues.
[00:45:59] And then he proceeds to get into personnel issues because it has to do
[00:46:02] with offensive conduct and language,
[00:46:04] refusing to perform job assignments and failing to listen to
[00:46:07] supervisors.
[00:46:09] But it turns out that a month before Koppman had mentioned him and
[00:46:14] one of the other city council members to the state's division of human
[00:46:19] rights, talking about how they were sexually harassing her.
[00:46:22] So September, she does that October.
[00:46:24] She's, she's put on ice.
[00:46:28] And so this creates a huge spat in Centerville.
[00:46:32] People are going back and forth.
[00:46:34] Some people support him.
[00:46:36] Some people support her.
[00:46:37] She says that she was dealing with a barrage of sexually charged
[00:46:40] harassment, getting pornographic texts from a city counselor.
[00:46:44] He was demeaning her.
[00:46:45] He was talking about menstruation and like men's work and how women
[00:46:49] weren't as good as men when it comes to the work and all this stuff.
[00:46:53] And people were criticizing her because she wore a bikini to a town pool
[00:46:57] while she was off duty.
[00:46:58] That was apparently like a big deal.
[00:47:00] I don't anyways,
[00:47:04] the whole thing just got completely chaotic in 2012.
[00:47:10] The Argus leader ran a story talking about how the case ended in at some
[00:47:15] sort of mediated settlement.
[00:47:17] A federal judge basically said that her claims were good enough to go to a
[00:47:20] jury trial.
[00:47:22] And so then the city, you know, Centerville settled.
[00:47:26] Everything kind of went away after that.
[00:47:28] It's not clear what the settlement was.
[00:47:30] So he resigned.
[00:47:34] Ostrom resigned as mayor in November, 2011 city council accepted it.
[00:47:39] So why are we talking about him?
[00:47:43] Excellent question, but like, isn't this crazy?
[00:47:46] But I think it's important to understand some of this,
[00:47:48] especially the sexual stuff and the shooting other people thing,
[00:47:51] because I think it's thrown into a new light now.
[00:47:54] So he's 64 years old now on Thursday,
[00:47:57] May 23rd, she went to 2024.
[00:47:59] Jay Ostrom's wife told police that she and a man named Paul Frankis,
[00:48:03] who's 26 years old were out drinking.
[00:48:06] He grabbed her and forcibly kissed her.
[00:48:08] That's that's her story.
[00:48:10] And also flashed his genitals.
[00:48:12] Then on Memorial day, Monday, May 27th,
[00:48:16] she told her husband that this happened.
[00:48:19] He's he's been drinking seemingly he leaves.
[00:48:23] She doesn't see him.
[00:48:24] Grab any guns on the way out,
[00:48:25] but he ends up with an AR style rifle and a 38 caliber handgun.
[00:48:30] And he did not tell her where she was going,
[00:48:32] but he apparently went to 1031 Main Street in Centerville and proceeded
[00:48:37] to shoot Paul Frankis.
[00:48:39] His Paul Frank's his younger brother,
[00:48:42] 21 year old Zach calls the police says his brother was just shot and killed.
[00:48:47] Then is saying the shooter just came back.
[00:48:49] Then he says I've been shot and then stopped shooting.
[00:48:51] So he shot and killed as well as is a man named Timothy Richmond.
[00:48:55] Authorities show up.
[00:48:57] They get there as Ostrom is leaving the house.
[00:48:59] He ignores their shouts to get on the ground.
[00:49:02] He seems to be bleeding from his left hand and he was booked into jail on a
[00:49:07] $1 million bond on Tuesday and he faces three counts of first degree murder.
[00:49:12] So yeah, that's apparently what happened when I was digging into it.
[00:49:18] I was very curious about what happened.
[00:49:19] When I was digging into it, I was very curious.
[00:49:21] It was like, who's, who are the victims going to turn out to be?
[00:49:23] Is it going to be someone he clashed with in the past in terms of this stuff?
[00:49:26] But it's a fight over an alleged sort of sexual assault of his wife,
[00:49:32] essentially, you know, forceful kiss.
[00:49:36] Um,
[00:49:38] I guess what interests me is that he has a checkered past when it comes to
[00:49:42] sexual harassment. Is that fair to say?
[00:49:45] That's fair to say.
[00:49:46] I'm not saying that I'm necessarily coming down on one side or another about
[00:49:50] whether he was guilty of that,
[00:49:51] but it certainly sounds like there was a lot of smoke there around his
[00:49:54] treatment of police chief Rachel Koppman. So isn't it interesting?
[00:49:59] And you and I have had conversations like this,
[00:50:01] that sometimes the men who get the most aggro aggressive about perceived
[00:50:09] mistreatment of their female partners are also people who tend to be behave in
[00:50:14] very sexist and boorish ways anyways. So why is that?
[00:50:19] What's going on there, Kevin?
[00:50:21] I can't speak for all men. Do you have anything?
[00:50:23] Tell me about what do the men say about this?
[00:50:26] You and the council of men, the brethren. No, I mean, I, I know, obviously most,
[00:50:31] most men are not killing people, but don't you see like,
[00:50:35] isn't there some kind of parallel there that we've observed just in life?
[00:50:39] Yes.
[00:50:40] We've seen instances where people make a big deal out of what I have to do this
[00:50:45] to protect my wife's honor.
[00:50:48] And then they end up doing something that causes themselves either embarrassment
[00:50:54] or criminal acts, or it's,
[00:50:58] it's very performative and bizarre.
[00:51:00] I think it tends to be, you know, not on behalf of the woman,
[00:51:05] but it's on behalf of basically a feeling of possessiveness and the man's own
[00:51:09] honor being besmirched.
[00:51:11] So I don't think it's actually like some sort of unselfish protective impulse.
[00:51:15] I think it's a self-protective impulse and it has to do with more of this sort
[00:51:19] of possessiveness ownership.
[00:51:21] Like you've disrespected me by going after my wife.
[00:51:25] Yes.
[00:51:26] And I think that is unfortunate. And I think,
[00:51:29] And it's striking that oftentimes when you see this happen,
[00:51:33] it's pretty clear that the wife doesn't really seem to want this to happen.
[00:51:37] No, I think we can all understand, you know, no matter who we are,
[00:51:41] what our gender is or whatnot,
[00:51:44] feeling protective of someone you love and feeling really angry and maybe even
[00:51:48] vengeful if somebody does something that harms them or upsets them.
[00:51:53] And so that's an human understandable impulse,
[00:51:56] but it is something that I think a well-adjusted person can help support their
[00:52:02] partner and help them get the resources they need in order to press charges or
[00:52:09] deal with the situation in a way.
[00:52:12] Kind of goes back to the vigilante justice thing.
[00:52:15] And what's more in this situation, I mean,
[00:52:17] it's especially horrifying because he seemingly just runs out of the house
[00:52:20] immediately upon hearing this and kills two additional people who seemingly did
[00:52:25] not participate in whatever alleged assault took place.
[00:52:29] So it's just striking that this guy was in charge of this town and making
[00:52:34] decisions and being a police officer for all those years.
[00:52:37] It kind of shines a light on some of his past actions that kind of looks
[00:52:42] concerning in retrospect because this really shows horrible judgment.
[00:52:48] But yeah, the irony of him being accused of basically being incredibly sexist
[00:52:52] and mistreating women and then getting so aggrieved on his wife's behalf in the
[00:52:56] situation just struck me as odd, but also true to some kind of type of person where
[00:53:05] it's ego-driven. It's not anything else.
[00:53:09] And that's unfortunate because now three people have lost their lives and he will
[00:53:14] likely spend the rest of his life in an incarcerated setting, I imagine.
[00:53:20] I mean, he's 64. He's not a young man anymore.
[00:53:24] 64 is still very young.
[00:53:26] A long sentence would be, you know, not something that he would necessarily be able to get out of.
[00:53:32] You're still a baby when you're 64.
[00:53:34] Oh my gosh.
[00:53:37] All the 64-year-olds are clapping right now. Yeah, Kevin, get her.
[00:53:41] I'm just laying the groundwork because there's a good chance I'll be 64 one of these days.
[00:53:46] You're not 64.
[00:53:48] But someday.
[00:53:50] Someday.
[00:53:51] I mean, it's well, OK, fair point.
[00:53:54] But it's when people do stuff like this, I mean, do they realize they're just ruining
[00:53:59] their own lives and that there are ways?
[00:54:01] I mean, he's a law enforcement officer with years of law enforcement experience.
[00:54:05] It doesn't cross his mind that, like, first of all, if I've got this wicked temper,
[00:54:10] I should not have easy access to firearms in my house while I am drinking.
[00:54:15] Second of all, if I do this, I will go to jail and then to prison.
[00:54:20] Like that.
[00:54:22] And also, yeah, I don't know.
[00:54:27] Sometimes people don't make decisions based on cold logic and rationality.
[00:54:32] I know. Not everyone.
[00:54:33] I know that's shocking to you.
[00:54:34] I'm not exactly Mr. Spock myself, but I feel like when you're talking about, like,
[00:54:40] Let's that's a Rubicon that you're not going to be able to get back across in many
[00:54:46] situations.
[00:54:49] So are we going to Chicago next?
[00:54:51] Let's go to Chicago.
[00:54:53] This is I got this from the AP from a lawsuit.
[00:54:57] And also, I got some background from WTTW.
[00:55:02] I we've been talking to you long enough.
[00:55:04] I don't know if I need to go too much into the details of this.
[00:55:08] But it involves a man named Darian Harris, who was convicted of murder and
[00:55:15] sentenced to 76 years.
[00:55:19] And it has since come out that one of the key witnesses, perhaps the key witness
[00:55:25] against him, an eyewitness against him, was a man who was legally blind.
[00:55:34] Oh, my goodness.
[00:55:35] And in fact, according to the lawsuit, this man was so blind.
[00:55:40] Police knew he was blind.
[00:55:42] They knew he couldn't identify Mr.
[00:55:47] Harris in a lineup.
[00:55:48] And also he was so his vision was so impaired, he couldn't even read a statement
[00:55:53] they prepared for him.
[00:55:56] So Mr.
[00:55:57] Harris spent 12 years in prison before he was exonerated.
[00:56:03] And now he is filing a suit against the city of Chicago.
[00:56:08] So this is an outrageous situation that is horrifying.
[00:56:14] I'm not sure how the fact that the eyewitness was blind did not come out at
[00:56:22] the trial.
[00:56:24] This seems like one of those things that you like you watch on.
[00:56:28] We talked about how fictional depictions of law and order and sort of police
[00:56:32] are often not realistic.
[00:56:33] But this seems like one of those things you'd watch and you'd be like, that
[00:56:36] wouldn't happen.
[00:56:37] But no, it did.
[00:56:38] I mean, that's outrageous.
[00:56:41] He should sue them.
[00:56:43] Was there any other evidence against him or was it mostly on the word of
[00:56:46] somebody?
[00:56:47] It was mostly this eyewitness.
[00:56:51] The verdict was reached by a judge as opposed to a jury.
[00:56:55] And in the judge's statement, he said, oh, this isn't even a close case,
[00:56:58] especially when you consider this really dramatic testimony from this witness.
[00:57:04] And the witness was the blind guy.
[00:57:06] Wow, geez.
[00:57:07] I mean, that's in 12 and a half years of his life.
[00:57:11] He's still a young man.
[00:57:13] I believe he's 30 now, but he'd lost 12 years.
[00:57:16] And he said since he's come out, it's hard to get back into mainstream society.
[00:57:23] He doesn't really have a lot of support or money.
[00:57:26] So it's an awful situation.
[00:57:29] I really hope that.
[00:57:31] And meanwhile, whoever committed the murder has not had to pay for it.
[00:57:37] And probably at this point, there's a chance they may never pay for it.
[00:57:41] Geez.
[00:57:42] And so, so essentially the defense or rather his, his, his suit in this case
[00:57:48] is saying that police even basically fabricated the witness's statement.
[00:57:54] Yeah, because the witness was blind.
[00:57:56] So the police just manipulated and they say that some of these problems are systemic
[00:58:04] within the department and there are other cases.
[00:58:08] And so if there's any chance that those allegations are true, I would welcome
[00:58:13] a trial in a suit to bring them out so we can all learn the truth.
[00:58:18] I mean, I should say this, but we we have covered a case in Chicago
[00:58:22] you know what I'm talking about?
[00:58:23] I know what you're talking about.
[00:58:24] And that was a mass homicide of four men in a fish and chicken restaurant
[00:58:29] on the South Shore area.
[00:58:31] And they arrest a guy and a teenager and they say, this guy did it.
[00:58:38] Let's have a press conference where they, they even mentioned his juvenile
[00:58:41] record, which you're not supposed to do.
[00:58:44] And then it turns out that they don't disclose that this person,
[00:58:49] that they don't disclose that this person they're publicly accusing
[00:58:52] of that crime was someone who had recently had a successful lawsuit
[00:58:58] against the city of Chicago for police brutality.
[00:59:02] And so perhaps that may have given the police a motive to go after him,
[00:59:06] but because he had this lawsuit and he had some money from that lawsuit,
[00:59:10] he was able to hire some top flight attorneys who did some investigation
[00:59:16] and came up with proof that this man couldn't have committed the crime.
[00:59:20] It's a very interesting story.
[00:59:21] And we did several episodes on it that we ran during our honeymoon.
[00:59:26] Isn't it interesting that somebody who's, you know, has sued them
[00:59:30] is then turned around and they're a suspect in something based on thin evidence?
[00:59:34] I'm going to say this.
[00:59:35] I tend to take a moderate view of police agencies.
[00:59:39] If I kind of tend to look at performance and specific allegations,
[00:59:42] I don't inherently assume anyone is corrupt or that anyone is perfect
[00:59:47] and can't be wrong. Right?
[00:59:48] You kind of want to have a middling view, I think, in order to be fair.
[00:59:52] And if you see evidence of corruption or incompetence,
[00:59:54] you note that and you report on it.
[00:59:57] And if you don't, then you still don't necessarily assume
[01:00:00] everything they say is perfect and correct.
[01:00:03] Just a nuanced view is important.
[01:00:05] But with the Chicago Police Department,
[01:00:08] I definitely reporting on that case, as Kevin mentioned,
[01:00:12] definitely has stuck with me.
[01:00:14] And I was very troubled by some of what I saw.
[01:00:18] We don't have time to get into all of it,
[01:00:20] but there were just like,
[01:00:22] there were essentially gangs of bicycle cops going around.
[01:00:27] Perhaps you should link to the...
[01:00:28] I'll link to the episode, but...
[01:00:30] Several episodes.
[01:00:31] But there was a lot of outrageous stuff going on
[01:00:34] and it just felt like, what is going on in Chicago here?
[01:00:36] So it certainly does come to my mind
[01:00:40] when I'm hearing about something like this,
[01:00:42] where I'm like, are you kidding?
[01:00:43] Like again, basically.
[01:00:46] In several episodes, but I should mention
[01:00:48] some of those episodes are really short.
[01:00:50] Yeah, we didn't really know what we were doing back then.
[01:00:52] Well, also we wanted to go on a honeymoon
[01:00:53] and take some time off.
[01:00:54] And so we made the episodes a little bit shorter.
[01:00:56] Yeah, that's actually why we don't do that anymore
[01:00:58] because we felt like we stretched it out too much.
[01:01:00] And so we kind of were like, you know,
[01:01:02] but it's still an interesting story.
[01:01:03] And if you listen to them all at once,
[01:01:05] it's essentially like a longer episode.
[01:01:07] It's like one long episode instead of like...
[01:01:09] It wasn't like three or four, like 20 minute episodes.
[01:01:12] Why are you putting past Anya and Kevin on blast here?
[01:01:15] Don't you think past Anya and Kevin
[01:01:17] need to be held accountable?
[01:01:18] Fair.
[01:01:19] We're all about holding ourselves accountable.
[01:01:22] I guess having finished up in Chicago,
[01:01:25] are we ready to head over to Philadelphia?
[01:01:27] Yes.
[01:01:28] This is a case that has haunted me for a long time.
[01:01:30] I'm not going to lie.
[01:01:31] So my sources for this are the FBI
[01:01:33] sort of press releases on their website,
[01:01:35] as well as ABC 7 Chicago and NBC 10 Pennsylvania.
[01:01:39] And a listener, an awesome person,
[01:01:41] asked us to cover this.
[01:01:42] So shout out to them.
[01:01:44] And I would also recommend checking out
[01:01:46] the June 11th, 2017 episode of the show
[01:01:49] Disappeared on i-D called A Bridge Too Far.
[01:01:53] That's about this case.
[01:01:54] So this is the case,
[01:01:55] the disappearance of Richard Patron
[01:01:58] and Danielle Imbo.
[01:02:02] I, as I said, have been haunted by this case.
[01:02:04] It's this couple, they go out on a date,
[01:02:07] a fun time out on town,
[01:02:08] and then they disappear.
[01:02:11] No trace, no convictions,
[01:02:13] just questions for their family.
[01:02:15] It's the kind of case that I think
[01:02:17] feels more personal to me
[01:02:19] because it feels like it could be anyone.
[01:02:21] Feels like you and I,
[01:02:22] like this could happen to us.
[01:02:23] We could go out and then, you know,
[01:02:26] because they weren't doing anything high risk.
[01:02:28] They were just,
[01:02:29] they went out for drinks with friends
[01:02:30] and never came back.
[01:02:31] And there is a sense of safety,
[01:02:33] I think when you're out with somebody
[01:02:35] and, you know, it's like, well,
[01:02:37] I'm not alone, right?
[01:02:38] Oftentimes when we hear about something bad
[01:02:40] happening to somebody when they're out,
[01:02:41] they were alone, it's night,
[01:02:43] but you're with somebody else.
[01:02:45] So what could happen?
[01:02:46] But that safety can be unfortunately an illusion.
[01:02:49] So Richard Patron, back in 2005,
[01:02:52] he was 35.
[01:02:53] He had a teenage daughter
[01:02:54] and he worked at his family's bakery,
[01:02:56] Viking Pastries in Ardmore, Pennsylvania.
[01:02:59] That's sadly since closed.
[01:03:01] Danielle Inbo was 34.
[01:03:03] She had a toddler son
[01:03:04] and worked as a loan mortgage processor
[01:03:06] and she had separated from her husband,
[01:03:09] Joseph Inbo.
[01:03:10] So Danielle and Richard
[01:03:12] had a romantic connection,
[01:03:14] but it wasn't consistent.
[01:03:15] They were sort of like on again,
[01:03:16] off again.
[01:03:18] Patron's family said that Joseph Inbo
[01:03:21] repeatedly made harassing
[01:03:23] and threatening phone calls to Richard,
[01:03:25] threatening him over his connection to Danielle.
[01:03:28] Inbo himself has disputed this,
[01:03:30] but that is what Patron's family has said.
[01:03:34] And so we go to Saturday,
[01:03:36] February 19th, 2005.
[01:03:38] Richard and Danielle go out for drinks
[01:03:40] at Abilene's Bar and Restaurant
[01:03:42] at that's at 429 South Street in Philadelphia.
[01:03:46] It's since closed.
[01:03:47] It's now a place called South Flavors, I think.
[01:03:50] And they went and they met another couple for drinks.
[01:03:53] Normal night.
[01:03:54] They left around 11.45 p.m.
[01:03:56] and they were last seen walking towards
[01:03:59] Richard's parked vehicle on South Street.
[01:04:02] That's the last time they're seen.
[01:04:04] Not only are they both gone,
[01:04:06] but there's no activity on their bank accounts,
[01:04:08] no activity on their phones
[01:04:10] and Patron's vehicle,
[01:04:12] which is a 2001 black over silver Dodge Dakota pickup truck
[01:04:16] with Pennsylvania license plates
[01:04:18] YFH 2319
[01:04:21] and maybe even a NASCAR sticker on the back window.
[01:04:24] That's gone.
[01:04:25] That's never been found.
[01:04:27] So I'm again,
[01:04:30] I like the boring answers.
[01:04:32] One thing that's always made me interested
[01:04:36] in this case is the fact the vehicle wasn't found.
[01:04:38] To me when a vehicle is missing
[01:04:40] that either points to an accident
[01:04:42] like they went into the water
[01:04:43] and had just never been found
[01:04:45] or points to a very highly planned
[01:04:49] or, you know,
[01:04:50] highly successful murder
[01:04:53] where the car is also disposed of somehow.
[01:04:56] And I'll note that 429 South Street
[01:05:01] is not too far from the Delaware River.
[01:05:03] In order to drive Danielle back home
[01:05:06] to Mount Laurel Township in New Jersey,
[01:05:09] where she lived,
[01:05:10] they would have had to cross the Delaware River.
[01:05:12] I've always wondered like could something have happened
[01:05:15] in a way that somehow no one notices,
[01:05:17] but that doesn't really make a lot of sense
[01:05:20] because it's not clear to me
[01:05:22] where exactly they would have driven off.
[01:05:23] I mean, you're not going to drive off a bridge
[01:05:25] or something like and have no one notice that necessarily.
[01:05:29] So the other thing that makes me think
[01:05:32] that this is not an accident
[01:05:33] and this is foul play is the fact
[01:05:35] that the FBI seems to believe that
[01:05:37] they actually put out a press release in 2008
[01:05:40] saying that they believe that this is murder for hire.
[01:05:43] So they seem to have some specific information around that
[01:05:48] and they're offering a $15,000 reward
[01:05:50] for information that leads to an arrest.
[01:05:53] I mean, tell me what you think about this,
[01:05:56] but if this is a hit,
[01:05:58] it's a highly organized and successful one
[01:06:01] or it's one that is so lucky like that it's unbelievable
[01:06:04] because these are two young people
[01:06:07] who would be missed very quickly
[01:06:09] and a big old pickup truck.
[01:06:12] Getting rid of them and a truck,
[01:06:16] I feel like it's a hard task.
[01:06:18] That's not easy to do without leaving a trace.
[01:06:21] And so I feel like this was either highly professional
[01:06:25] or very lucky.
[01:06:27] What about Israel Keys?
[01:06:30] Jeez.
[01:06:32] So Alaska serial killer Israel Keys
[01:06:35] is sometimes brought up in conjunction with this case
[01:06:38] because he had a number of missing people
[01:06:41] seemingly on his computer
[01:06:43] and Danielle and Richard were two of them.
[01:06:46] I should note that I am a very extreme Keys skeptic.
[01:06:51] I believe that the proliferation of cases
[01:06:54] attributed to him by sleuths on the internet
[01:06:57] is bordering on ridiculous.
[01:07:00] And I think that he was a self-aggrandizing creep
[01:07:07] who said whatever he thought would be interesting.
[01:07:10] I don't think he had anything to do with this
[01:07:12] nor do I think he was involved in Lawrence Beer.
[01:07:15] I think people exaggerate his kill count.
[01:07:18] I mean, I certainly believe he was an evil murderer
[01:07:21] who did something horrible and did kill people.
[01:07:25] But I just think that it's gotten to a crazy degree
[01:07:29] and I just I think if there's no evidence
[01:07:31] of someone being there, you can't just say that.
[01:07:35] I mean, this is obviously searches about these people
[01:07:37] on my computer too and I didn't do it.
[01:07:39] I mean, that's nothing.
[01:07:41] So I think yeah, I mean right now the FBI Burlington County
[01:07:45] Prosecutor's Office, New Jersey State Police
[01:07:47] and the Philadelphia Police Department
[01:07:49] are all still on the case.
[01:07:51] My questions in this would ultimately be for Joseph Imbo
[01:07:54] given that they're saying murder for hire
[01:07:56] and given that Patron's family claims
[01:07:59] that he was threatening Patron.
[01:08:02] He seems like a person who would have a reason
[01:08:04] to harm them both if he did not approve of their relationship.
[01:08:08] And that's not obviously enough to charge anyone with
[01:08:12] and maybe for all we know they've they are going
[01:08:15] in another direction by this point,
[01:08:16] but that would be where I would have the most questions
[01:08:19] in that direction.
[01:08:21] What do you think?
[01:08:23] Yeah, I certainly share your skepticism of Israel Keys.
[01:08:26] Yeah.
[01:08:27] Maybe at some point we should do an episode
[01:08:31] going into that more in depth.
[01:08:33] Yeah, sometimes when you know,
[01:08:35] when you're a hammer everything looks like a nail
[01:08:37] and I feel like that's that's sort of the Israel Keys syndrome
[01:08:40] on the internet.
[01:08:41] Just like this case is unsolved.
[01:08:43] Well, you know Israel Keys once looked at a map of Indiana.
[01:08:47] It's like wow, thank you that you got it.
[01:08:50] I think there's also a tendency to want to connect things
[01:08:53] because then it's like it makes it more interesting
[01:08:55] but then you can almost like have some closure
[01:08:57] because you're like well Israel Keys did it
[01:08:59] but he's gone now.
[01:09:01] It's like probably someone we've never even heard of.
[01:09:05] And that's not comforting in the slightest.
[01:09:07] Not at all, but you know true crime is not there
[01:09:11] to be comforting right?
[01:09:12] It's there to educate and inform
[01:09:14] and keep us aware of the issues of the day.
[01:09:17] But yeah, this is a very sad case.
[01:09:20] My heart goes out to their families.
[01:09:21] I think this probably one of the worst things possible
[01:09:25] to have something like this happen
[01:09:27] and there's not even any indication
[01:09:29] of what really happened to your loved one.
[01:09:31] That's like a limbo.
[01:09:33] I mean it's horrible to have a loved one murdered
[01:09:37] but to have something like this
[01:09:39] where it's pretty clearly foul play
[01:09:41] or at least that's a strong possibility
[01:09:43] but you don't know who did it,
[01:09:44] they're getting away with it.
[01:09:46] I don't know, my heart goes out to them.
[01:09:49] But anyways, that's all for the cases we wanted to cover.
[01:09:54] I had a question for you.
[01:09:57] Okay.
[01:09:58] Maybe this is a little bit too personal.
[01:10:00] Maybe we should edit this out
[01:10:03] but I know you give good advice.
[01:10:07] I often, you see people online,
[01:10:09] you see people in our daily lives sometimes saying
[01:10:11] Kevin, you don't dress as stylishly as you should.
[01:10:14] I wonder, is there any way I could up
[01:10:17] my clothing and fashion game
[01:10:20] by wearing something stylish
[01:10:23] that also shows the world
[01:10:26] that I have a great taste in podcasting?
[01:10:29] Is there any options or am I just totally hopeless?
[01:10:33] You're totally hopeless.
[01:10:36] No, I'm just kidding.
[01:10:37] I mean obviously you can go to murdercheapshop.com
[01:10:41] and get yourself a t-shirt.
[01:10:44] You would do that if you didn't have
[01:10:46] a bunch of inventory in your own house right now.
[01:10:49] But I bet if I did that
[01:10:51] my whole life would change for the better.
[01:10:54] At least I hope, because I desperately need to change.
[01:10:57] Are you trying to get me to say that
[01:11:00] if listeners buy a Murder Sheet People t-shirt right now
[01:11:05] from that murdercheapshop.com website
[01:11:08] that their lives will change for the better
[01:11:10] and that just good things will happen
[01:11:12] and just the good vibes will come down immediately
[01:11:14] and they'll just see instant improvement
[01:11:16] in every area of their lives?
[01:11:17] Is that what you're trying to get me to say?
[01:11:19] Anya, that's a bold claim.
[01:11:21] I hope no one turns you into the FDA.
[01:11:23] But if they do, please note that was said by Anya Cain.
[01:11:27] In jest.
[01:11:29] I didn't make those outrageous claims.
[01:11:32] Maybe they are true.
[01:11:33] Oh, you're not skeptical.
[01:11:36] You just don't know all the facts.
[01:11:37] Yeah, maybe we should do some sort of experiment
[01:11:39] where people should get the shirts
[01:11:42] and see if it changes their lives for the better.
[01:11:44] Or at the very least, you'll look really cool
[01:11:46] because I'm really proud of the printer did a great job
[01:11:50] Our logo has a lot of different colors in it
[01:11:54] and apparently that's a whole thing
[01:11:56] when it comes to printing t-shirts.
[01:11:57] We learned that the hard way.
[01:11:59] And so this looks pretty great
[01:12:02] and it says the Murder Sheet people
[01:12:04] so if you want to be a Murder Sheet person
[01:12:06] you can order them
[01:12:08] and if you are a member of our Patreon
[01:12:10] you get $5 off shipping.
[01:12:12] Free shipping, rather!
[01:12:14] So totally free shipping.
[01:12:16] That is all very exciting
[01:12:19] and I hope you like them if you get them
[01:12:23] and for everyone who has ordered one
[01:12:25] all the wonderful people
[01:12:26] we just want to say thank you from the bottom of our hearts.
[01:12:28] It really is a huge show of support
[01:12:30] and it really helps us out
[01:12:32] and we think you're going to look nifty.
[01:12:35] And it keeps Anya in cereal boxes.
[01:12:37] Yeah, and it keeps me under the watchful eye of the FDA apparently.
[01:12:43] Can you imagine?
[01:12:46] Remember, you made a joke about me getting arrested at an Arby's once
[01:12:50] and then that somehow turned on Reddit
[01:12:52] into me getting arrested at a McDonald's
[01:12:54] which has never happened.
[01:12:56] I've never been arrested.
[01:12:57] It was an Arby's store.
[01:12:58] I've never been arrested in my life!
[01:13:00] You came close over at the grocery store.
[01:13:02] I have never come close to being arrested in my life
[01:13:06] and not only that
[01:13:08] Kevin makes a joke, this rumor mill spills out
[01:13:11] suddenly I'm a convicted felon
[01:13:13] holding hostages at McDonald's
[01:13:14] I'm sure that's where it's going
[01:13:15] or like White Castle of all places
[01:13:17] and then, so this is going to be one of those things I'm sure
[01:13:20] soon I will be like in the FDA interrogation room
[01:13:24] someone will do a YouTube live documenting it
[01:13:26] it's going to just spiral.
[01:13:28] And if she was under interrogation
[01:13:30] she would break immediately.
[01:13:31] Are you kidding me?
[01:13:32] That is not true.
[01:13:33] Do you remember there was one time
[01:13:35] I know we've talked way too long
[01:13:37] but there was one time a police officer pulls me over
[01:13:41] and gets aggressive with me
[01:13:43] and you were so nervous
[01:13:44] you were prepared to break and confess to everything
[01:13:47] even though you weren't even the driver of the car.
[01:13:49] I was nervous because I thought he was going to like
[01:13:51] he seemed to get really aggressive really quickly
[01:13:54] and I thought you were being such a glib lawyer
[01:13:57] that I thought he was going to like
[01:13:59] get mad at you or something.
[01:14:00] The policeman pulls me over
[01:14:02] and says, do you know what you did wrong?
[01:14:04] And if a policeman asks you
[01:14:06] do you know what you did wrong?
[01:14:07] You say, oh yes officer, I did this wrong
[01:14:09] well then you've made an admission.
[01:14:12] That was a scary moment.
[01:14:14] So he kept on trying to get me to say
[01:14:17] do you know what you did wrong?
[01:14:18] I said, no, no.
[01:14:19] And he said, oh well I think you did this.
[01:14:22] I said, well that's your opinion
[01:14:23] I certainly respect it sir.
[01:14:24] And he was getting increasingly upset.
[01:14:27] He said, well if you just admit it
[01:14:29] I'll let you go.
[01:14:30] And I said, well I mean
[01:14:32] you do whatever you want.
[01:14:34] And he got increasingly upset.
[01:14:36] You're like shaking like a leaf.
[01:14:38] I'm not shaking.
[01:14:40] Oh my gosh.
[01:14:41] The sweat was pouring off you.
[01:14:42] Dramatic.
[01:14:43] But then he lets me go.
[01:14:44] The dramatics.
[01:14:45] I actually, I agree with you
[01:14:47] not because of that incident
[01:14:48] but because do you remember
[01:14:49] when we were coming back from Canada
[01:14:51] at one point and the border guards
[01:14:53] asked me because I was driving
[01:14:55] where are you coming from ma'am?
[01:14:57] And I said, Indiana.
[01:15:01] As we're crossing the border
[01:15:03] coming from Canada.
[01:15:04] And he's like what?
[01:15:05] And I'm like, oh, like I just
[01:15:08] He circumnavigated the whole globe.
[01:15:10] We parachuted in last night.
[01:15:12] Oh man.
[01:15:13] So you'd break.
[01:15:14] Yeah, well I would.
[01:15:15] I mean, you know what?
[01:15:16] So would you.
[01:15:17] I didn't get a ticket did I?
[01:15:19] I didn't get a ticket the one time
[01:15:21] I was speeding in Peru.
[01:15:23] So.
[01:15:24] Just batting your little eyes at him.
[01:15:25] I wasn't doing that.
[01:15:26] I was just, I'm really sorry.
[01:15:28] Like I, I'm, you know, just, I don't know.
[01:15:32] What are you smirking at?
[01:15:33] Oh my gosh, this man.
[01:15:37] Well, have a good weekend.
[01:15:38] Yeah, you guys have fun.
[01:15:40] I think I and I are going to have a long talk.
[01:15:42] Yeah, I think we're going to have a conversation
[01:15:43] after this one.
[01:15:44] Isn't that the way most episodes end?
[01:15:46] Just with me saying we have a long talk.
[01:15:48] We just careen off a cliff at some point.
[01:15:51] Salman Louise.
[01:15:52] Thanks so much for listening
[01:15:57] to The Murder Sheet.
[01:15:58] If you have a tip concerning
[01:16:00] one of the cases we cover,
[01:16:02] please email us at
[01:16:03] murdersheet at gmail dot com.
[01:16:07] If you have actionable information
[01:16:09] about an unsolved crime,
[01:16:11] please report it to
[01:16:12] the appropriate authorities.
[01:16:14] If you're interested in joining our Patreon,
[01:16:18] that's available at
[01:16:19] www.patreon.com slash murder sheet.
[01:16:25] If you want to tip us a bit of money
[01:16:27] for records requests,
[01:16:28] you can do so at
[01:16:30] www.buymeacoffee.com slash murder sheet.
[01:16:35] We very much appreciate any support.
[01:16:39] Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee,
[01:16:41] who composed the music for The Murder Sheet,
[01:16:44] and who you can find on the web at
[01:16:46] kevintg.com.
[01:16:49] If you're looking to talk with other listeners
[01:16:51] about a case we've covered,
[01:16:53] you can join the Murder Sheet
[01:16:54] discussion group on Facebook.
[01:16:57] We mostly focus our time
[01:16:58] on research and reporting,
[01:17:00] so we're not on social media much.
[01:17:03] We do try to check our email account,
[01:17:05] but we ask for patience
[01:17:06] as we often receive a lot of messages.
[01:17:09] Thanks again for listening.