The Cheat Sheet: Outbreaks and Obsessions

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[00:01:35] Content warning.

[00:01:37] This episode includes discussion of murder,

[00:01:40] stalking, rape, and suicide.

[00:01:43] Today on The Cheat Sheet,

[00:01:45] we're gonna be discussing cases from both of our home states,

[00:01:49] Indiana for Kevin and New York for me,

[00:01:52] as well as from Michigan and Missouri,

[00:01:54] California, and Arizona.

[00:01:56] So we're gonna be going all around the place

[00:01:59] looking at some of these cases.

[00:02:01] I think a few touch upon the issue of stalking.

[00:02:03] And in addition to that, just as a reminder,

[00:02:06] Cheat Sheet is an opportunity for us

[00:02:08] to sort of go through some of the headlines,

[00:02:10] go through some of the cases people are following

[00:02:12] and either revisit cases that we've already covered

[00:02:15] or perhaps look at a new case

[00:02:17] and kind of give you our thoughts.

[00:02:19] So that's all in store coming up now on The Murder Sheet.

[00:02:23] My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist.

[00:02:26] And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

[00:02:28] And this is The Murder Sheet.

[00:02:30] We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting,

[00:02:33] interviews, and deep dives into murder cases.

[00:02:36] We're The Murder Sheet.

[00:02:38] And this is The Cheat Sheet, outbreaks and obsessions.

[00:02:43] To start off with, we're gonna take a case

[00:03:29] that we've covered pretty extensively.

[00:03:31] And this is the murder, of course, of Laurel Jean Mitchell.

[00:03:35] She was a 17-year-old living in North Webster, Indiana,

[00:03:41] in Kosciuszko County.

[00:03:43] She went missing in 1975

[00:03:45] and was shortly thereafter found raped and murdered

[00:03:49] in, I believe, Noble County.

[00:03:51] And it's a horrifying and tragic case,

[00:03:54] but it's a case that closure of some kind,

[00:03:57] or at least answers, may be on the horizon

[00:04:00] because two men were arrested for it relatively recently.

[00:04:04] This was a cold case that seemingly might be solved by DNA.

[00:04:08] So the two defendants facing murder charges in this

[00:04:11] are John Wayne Lehman and Fred Bandy.

[00:04:13] Bandy has a criminal record

[00:04:15] and was convicted on child molestation charges in the past.

[00:04:19] Lehman does not seem to have a record.

[00:04:21] And the reason we're covering this again

[00:04:24] is because there's been some interesting activity

[00:04:27] that a helpful listener flagged with us,

[00:04:30] so thank you to them.

[00:04:32] And this is from May 20th, 2024,

[00:04:36] so just a few days ago,

[00:04:38] a pretrial conference where George Brown,

[00:04:42] who's the judge,

[00:04:44] had some hearing scheduling activity

[00:04:46] that kind of came up on my case.

[00:04:48] And that was listed on my case

[00:04:51] as change of plea hearing scheduled

[00:04:53] for June 18th, 2024 at 11.30 a.m.,

[00:04:57] and that's for John Wayne Lehman's case.

[00:04:59] So a change of plea hearing would indicate

[00:05:04] that Mr. Lehman may be preparing

[00:05:07] to change his plea to guilty,

[00:05:09] would be the most likely option.

[00:05:11] Now, I don't want to get anyone's hopes up.

[00:05:14] We've seen situations with notably Kagan Klein

[00:05:17] in the Delphi case where at one point he was saying

[00:05:20] he's going to change his plea

[00:05:22] and then changed his mind again,

[00:05:24] and that's not usual.

[00:05:26] Usually these things go a little bit smoother,

[00:05:28] so we'll be really interested in seeing

[00:05:31] what happens on June 18th.

[00:05:33] But so far the sheriff of Noble County

[00:05:36] has gotten a transport order

[00:05:38] to bring him to the court on that day

[00:05:41] from Miami Correctional Facility.

[00:05:43] He's in prison because of health issues.

[00:05:46] He's not being incarcerated in jail prior to trial.

[00:05:49] And yeah, this is a big deal.

[00:05:51] Very interesting.

[00:05:53] Curious to see what happens next in that one.

[00:05:56] Well, given that he has, you know,

[00:05:57] there's another man charged with this,

[00:05:59] the thing I'd want to know is,

[00:06:01] has he made a deal?

[00:06:03] Is his deal, would that be

[00:06:05] to testify against Fred Bandy?

[00:06:07] Currently for Bandy, his next pre-trial hearing,

[00:06:10] which should be the final one,

[00:06:12] is scheduled for July 29th of this year at 3 p.m.,

[00:06:15] and his jury trial starts,

[00:06:17] or is scheduled to start right now, October 7th.

[00:06:20] So we'll be keeping an eye on that case,

[00:06:23] and again, our hearts go out to

[00:06:25] Laurel Jean Mitchell, her family,

[00:06:27] and just there were so many people affected by this case,

[00:06:30] her friends, the community,

[00:06:32] you know, her friends' families.

[00:06:34] I just, you know,

[00:06:35] this has been so much for a lot of them,

[00:06:37] and I just wish them all the best,

[00:06:39] and I hope that this whole situation

[00:06:42] can provide at least some answers.

[00:06:44] They deserve that.

[00:06:46] So my, I'm moving right along

[00:06:49] to another case that we've covered in the past.

[00:06:52] This is from New York,

[00:06:54] and my source for this is NBC New York.

[00:06:58] This is out of Massapequa Park, New York,

[00:07:01] in Nassau County.

[00:07:03] So you're probably guessing,

[00:07:05] okay, it's about the Long Island serial killer case.

[00:07:08] Yes.

[00:07:09] So Rex Humerman is a former

[00:07:11] New York City architect

[00:07:13] who's accused of perpetuating those crimes.

[00:07:15] He's specifically been charged

[00:07:16] with the murders of four women

[00:07:18] who were found in Gilgo Beach

[00:07:20] wrapped in burlap,

[00:07:22] burlap rather, bound,

[00:07:23] and just horribly murdered.

[00:07:25] So what's going on in that case?

[00:07:27] Well, police are back at his house.

[00:07:30] This is a red,

[00:07:33] about 1,300 square foot,

[00:07:35] seemingly single-story, one-bathroom home,

[00:07:38] and it was searched

[00:07:41] for quite a long time

[00:07:42] when he first came on the radar.

[00:07:44] The media was parked out there.

[00:07:46] It was really chaotic

[00:07:47] for all the people in the neighborhood, I know.

[00:07:49] And now police are back.

[00:07:52] The New York State Police

[00:07:53] have served a search warrant,

[00:07:55] and they are looking through his house again.

[00:07:58] Very curious.

[00:08:00] What they hope to find

[00:08:02] during a search this long afterwards.

[00:08:05] Yeah, it's really interesting.

[00:08:07] And one thing that has added to intrigue,

[00:08:09] and this has been sort of,

[00:08:10] people have run with this

[00:08:11] in the media reports,

[00:08:12] police also recently searched

[00:08:13] Manorville, New York,

[00:08:14] and I was also in connection with the case.

[00:08:17] And it's not clear

[00:08:18] if those are linked though,

[00:08:19] because it's not clear

[00:08:21] that all the cases attributed

[00:08:23] to the Long Island serial killer

[00:08:24] are linked.

[00:08:25] So did they find something

[00:08:27] connecting him to a Manorville case?

[00:08:29] Is this totally unrelated

[00:08:31] and they're just looking for something else?

[00:08:33] Police are being very tight-lipped

[00:08:35] about what they're looking for.

[00:08:36] It is an ongoing investigation,

[00:08:38] so that is understandable.

[00:08:40] But the NBC did report

[00:08:42] that crime scene technicians

[00:08:43] were seen in the yard

[00:08:45] and police were moving

[00:08:46] different bags and boxes.

[00:08:48] So they're definitely

[00:08:49] getting a lot out of this.

[00:08:50] I'll say this,

[00:08:52] I know one interesting thing

[00:08:54] about this residence

[00:08:55] is that media reports

[00:08:57] at the time

[00:08:58] when the initial searches

[00:09:00] were going on

[00:09:01] described it as cluttered

[00:09:03] or possibly indicating signs

[00:09:05] of hoarding.

[00:09:06] I mean, we can't review any pictures

[00:09:08] and so we can't make up

[00:09:09] our minds on that ourselves,

[00:09:10] but that is something

[00:09:11] people talked about

[00:09:13] the kind of disarray, clutter,

[00:09:15] maybe even, you know,

[00:09:17] concerning conditions

[00:09:18] within that home.

[00:09:19] So I am curious.

[00:09:21] It sounds like there might have been

[00:09:22] a lot of stuff though

[00:09:23] to find in that house.

[00:09:24] It does sound like that indeed.

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[00:12:20] I'd like to move on

[00:12:21] to a case

[00:12:22] in Michigan

[00:12:23] that I came across.

[00:12:25] My sources for this

[00:12:26] are a press release

[00:12:28] from the

[00:12:30] Michigan Attorney General

[00:12:31] Dana Nessel

[00:12:33] and also a report

[00:12:34] on

[00:12:35] W-H-M-I

[00:12:37] dot com.

[00:12:39] And I'm always drawn

[00:12:40] to stories

[00:12:41] where

[00:12:42] the murder

[00:12:43] isn't what you would

[00:12:44] typically expect.

[00:12:46] I think most of us

[00:12:47] when we hear

[00:12:48] the word murder

[00:12:50] there are certain

[00:12:51] things that come to mind

[00:12:52] oh we think

[00:12:53] it involves this

[00:12:54] or we think

[00:12:55] it involves that.

[00:12:57] And this is

[00:12:58] a case

[00:12:59] where a person

[00:13:00] is facing

[00:13:01] 11 counts

[00:13:02] of

[00:13:03] murder

[00:13:04] for

[00:13:05] something that's

[00:13:06] a little bit

[00:13:07] out of the ordinary.

[00:13:08] This is a man

[00:13:09] named Glenn Chin

[00:13:11] that actually

[00:13:12] lives in Massachusetts

[00:13:13] not Michigan

[00:13:15] where he

[00:13:16] was involved

[00:13:17] with

[00:13:18] a company

[00:13:19] called the

[00:13:20] New England

[00:13:21] Compounding Center

[00:13:22] which

[00:13:23] produced

[00:13:24] medications

[00:13:25] which were

[00:13:26] then shipped out

[00:13:27] to facilities

[00:13:28] all over the country

[00:13:29] and injected

[00:13:30] into people.

[00:13:32] And the

[00:13:33] cleaning

[00:13:34] and sterility

[00:13:35] procedures

[00:13:36] at this

[00:13:37] particular company

[00:13:39] were so

[00:13:40] slip shot

[00:13:42] that

[00:13:43] the medicine

[00:13:44] was contaminated.

[00:13:46] I believe

[00:13:48] hundreds

[00:13:49] of people

[00:13:50] got

[00:13:51] meningitis

[00:13:53] from medicines

[00:13:54] that they were

[00:13:55] injected with

[00:13:56] that was produced

[00:13:57] at this company

[00:13:58] and just

[00:13:59] in Michigan

[00:14:00] alone

[00:14:01] 11 people

[00:14:02] died from this.

[00:14:03] 64 people

[00:14:04] total

[00:14:05] died across the country.

[00:14:07] And when I talk

[00:14:08] about

[00:14:09] the

[00:14:10] sterility procedures

[00:14:11] and stuff

[00:14:12] at this

[00:14:13] facility

[00:14:14] just to give you

[00:14:15] an idea

[00:14:17] of what

[00:14:18] I'm talking about

[00:14:20] there were people

[00:14:21] in the so called

[00:14:22] clean room

[00:14:23] who were wearing

[00:14:24] like

[00:14:25] coveralls

[00:14:26] they were wearing

[00:14:27] hair nets

[00:14:29] there was

[00:14:30] mold

[00:14:31] in this room

[00:14:32] there were

[00:14:33] insects

[00:14:34] there were all sorts of

[00:14:36] so it's pretty

[00:14:37] it's pretty bad.

[00:14:38] That's egregious.

[00:14:40] And

[00:14:41] as I say

[00:14:42] 64 people died

[00:14:43] across the country

[00:14:44] so

[00:14:45] the people involved

[00:14:46] with this company

[00:14:47] are facing charges

[00:14:48] in a variety

[00:14:49] of different places

[00:14:50] but Michigan

[00:14:51] is the only

[00:14:52] place

[00:14:53] that I'm aware of

[00:14:54] where someone

[00:14:55] is actually

[00:14:56] charging them

[00:14:57] with murder.

[00:14:59] Particularly Mr. Chen

[00:15:00] he's being charged

[00:15:01] with second degree

[00:15:02] murder.

[00:15:03] Second degree

[00:15:05] murder is

[00:15:07] any unplanned

[00:15:09] non premeditated

[00:15:10] unintentional

[00:15:11] killing or death

[00:15:12] of another person

[00:15:14] caused by

[00:15:15] reckless disregard

[00:15:16] for human life.

[00:15:17] And so the

[00:15:18] argument

[00:15:19] would be

[00:15:20] that

[00:15:21] the procedures

[00:15:22] at this medical facility

[00:15:23] were so

[00:15:24] slipshod

[00:15:26] that constitutes

[00:15:27] reckless

[00:15:28] disregard.

[00:15:30] Now Mr. Chen's

[00:15:31] attorneys

[00:15:32] they've tried to make

[00:15:33] the case

[00:15:34] no

[00:15:35] this isn't the right

[00:15:36] charge

[00:15:37] to file

[00:15:38] this is more

[00:15:39] like a

[00:15:40] product

[00:15:41] liability case

[00:15:42] but

[00:15:43] their arguments

[00:15:44] have not

[00:15:45] worked

[00:15:46] and he is facing

[00:15:47] trial

[00:15:48] on this

[00:15:49] relatively soon.

[00:15:50] So I'm curious

[00:15:51] what do

[00:15:52] you think

[00:15:53] is the appropriate

[00:15:54] use

[00:15:55] of a

[00:15:56] second degree

[00:15:57] murder charge?

[00:15:58] I mean

[00:15:59] I don't know

[00:16:00] I'm torn.

[00:16:01] 64 people

[00:16:02] died

[00:16:03] 11 in Michigan

[00:16:04] and it's

[00:16:05] heartbreaking

[00:16:06] reading your

[00:16:07] notes here

[00:16:08] these are

[00:16:09] patients at

[00:16:10] the Michigan

[00:16:11] pain specialist

[00:16:12] clinic

[00:16:13] they died

[00:16:14] after receiving

[00:16:15] epidural injections

[00:16:16] I mean

[00:16:17] epidurals

[00:16:18] are

[00:16:19] you know

[00:16:20] pretty serious

[00:16:21] pain relief

[00:16:22] they can be used

[00:16:23] for childbirth

[00:16:24] but

[00:16:25] they can also

[00:16:26] be used

[00:16:27] in other settings

[00:16:28] to relieve pain

[00:16:29] these people

[00:16:30] were obviously

[00:16:31] already in pain

[00:16:32] and then

[00:16:33] you know

[00:16:34] something

[00:16:35] because somebody

[00:16:36] wasn't doing

[00:16:37] their job

[00:16:38] correctly

[00:16:39] cost their lives

[00:16:40] I mean

[00:16:41] that's horrifying

[00:16:42] it's a really

[00:16:43] you want to

[00:16:44] trust

[00:16:45] the

[00:16:46] places

[00:16:47] and the

[00:16:48] companies

[00:16:49] and the

[00:16:50] people

[00:16:51] just

[00:16:52] beyond the pale

[00:16:53] that's not

[00:16:54] understandable

[00:16:55] then again

[00:16:56] I do

[00:16:57] sometimes

[00:16:59] worry about

[00:17:00] overcharging

[00:17:02] it's like

[00:17:03] I'm of two minds

[00:17:04] it's very

[00:17:05] serious and I think

[00:17:06] it should be taken

[00:17:07] seriously

[00:17:08] I could almost see

[00:17:09] second degree homicide

[00:17:10] second degree

[00:17:11] murder rather

[00:17:12] being used

[00:17:13] as like a

[00:17:14] way to

[00:17:15] kind of

[00:17:16] bargain or

[00:17:17] something but

[00:17:18] does

[00:17:19] this require

[00:17:20] intent

[00:17:21] or anything

[00:17:22] like that?

[00:17:23] No.

[00:17:24] See okay

[00:17:25] it doesn't require

[00:17:26] intent so I guess

[00:17:27] you could say

[00:17:28] it fits in

[00:17:29] Michigan.

[00:17:30] It's

[00:17:31] interesting

[00:17:32] because

[00:17:33] I don't

[00:17:34] think we

[00:17:35] always fully

[00:17:36] appreciate

[00:17:37] how difficult

[00:17:38] one of the

[00:17:39] jobs a

[00:17:40] prosecutor

[00:17:41] or an

[00:17:42] attorney general

[00:17:43] has is

[00:17:44] the simple

[00:17:45] one of

[00:17:46] looking at

[00:17:47] facts and

[00:17:48] trying to

[00:17:49] find a variety

[00:17:50] of different

[00:17:51] charges here

[00:17:52] and

[00:17:53] yeah it's

[00:17:54] an interesting

[00:17:55] dilemma and

[00:17:56] I'm glad

[00:17:57] it's not up to

[00:17:58] me to make

[00:17:59] that call.

[00:18:00] Yeah it's like

[00:18:01] I guess

[00:18:02] I'm in a

[00:18:03] place where

[00:18:04] I could see

[00:18:05] both sides

[00:18:06] of this

[00:18:07] I could see

[00:18:08] both sides

[00:18:09] and if I

[00:18:10] were a

[00:18:11] family member

[00:18:12] of somebody

[00:18:13] who lost

[00:18:14] their lives

[00:18:15] in Michigan

[00:18:16] because this

[00:18:17] guy couldn't

[00:18:18] get his

[00:18:19] case finished

[00:18:20] looking at it

[00:18:21] from the

[00:18:22] outside

[00:18:23] without that

[00:18:24] emotional

[00:18:25] resonance

[00:18:26] I can

[00:18:27] understand where

[00:18:28] his attorneys

[00:18:29] are coming

[00:18:30] from when

[00:18:31] they're saying

[00:18:32] it's just

[00:18:33] a product

[00:18:34] liability

[00:18:35] case you

[00:18:36] know sue

[00:18:37] him but

[00:18:38] he's not

[00:18:39] a murderer

[00:18:40] I can

[00:18:41] understand

[00:18:42] where

[00:18:43] they're

[00:18:44] coming

[00:18:45] from so

[00:18:46] I'll be

[00:18:47] there

[00:18:48] for you

[00:18:49] I'm always

[00:18:50] interested

[00:18:51] I don't

[00:18:52] feel like

[00:18:53] at least

[00:18:54] in the

[00:18:55] United

[00:18:56] States

[00:18:57] you know

[00:18:58] we are

[00:18:59] a very

[00:19:00] lawsuit

[00:19:01] happy

[00:19:02] country

[00:19:03] but

[00:19:04] sometimes

[00:19:05] it feels

[00:19:06] like

[00:19:07] there's

[00:19:08] not

[00:19:09] always

[00:19:10] a lot

[00:19:11] of

[00:19:12] accountabilities

[00:19:13] for large

[00:19:14] companies

[00:19:15] that do

[00:19:16] not

[00:19:17] have

[00:19:18] a

[00:19:19] lot

[00:19:20] of

[00:19:21] legal

[00:19:22] power

[00:19:23] to

[00:19:24] do

[00:19:25] that

[00:19:26] and

[00:19:27] I

[00:19:28] think

[00:19:29] it's

[00:19:30] very

[00:19:31] important

[00:19:32] that we

[00:19:33] have

[00:19:34] a

[00:19:35] law

[00:19:36] that

[00:19:37] is

[00:19:38] that

[00:19:39] is

[00:19:40] clear

[00:19:41] and

[00:19:42] that

[00:19:43] it

[00:19:44] is

[00:19:45] a

[00:19:46] very

[00:19:47] important

[00:19:48] thing

[00:19:49] to

[00:19:50] do

[00:19:51] and

[00:19:52] I

[00:19:53] think

[00:19:54] that

[00:19:55] is

[00:19:56] important

[00:19:57] to

[00:19:58] do

[00:19:59] and

[00:20:00] I

[00:20:01] think

[00:20:02] it's

[00:20:03] important

[00:20:04] to

[00:20:05] do

[00:20:06] and

[00:20:07] I

[00:20:08] think

[00:20:09] it's

[00:20:10] important

[00:20:11] to

[00:20:12] do

[00:20:13] and

[00:20:14] I

[00:20:15] think

[00:20:16] it's

[00:20:17] important

[00:20:18] to

[00:20:19] do

[00:20:20] it

[00:20:21] and

[00:20:22] I

[00:20:23] hope

[00:20:24] that

[00:20:25] hopefully

[00:20:26] you

[00:20:27] guys

[00:20:28] kind

[00:20:29] of

[00:20:30] get

[00:20:31] the

[00:20:32] numbers

[00:20:33] back

[00:20:34] and

[00:20:35] hoping

[00:20:36] that

[00:20:37] they

[00:20:38] can

[00:20:39] get

[00:20:40] the

[00:20:41] results

[00:20:42] And so that's a situation where, again, the owners didn't want those people to die.

[00:20:47] They wanted the factory to keep running.

[00:20:49] But like how culpable were they for their deaths?

[00:20:52] I would argue pretty culpable.

[00:20:54] But I think they ended up kind of getting off the hook in that.

[00:20:57] So I think sometimes in our justice system there is kind of like a – you know, I think we –

[00:21:03] things can be a lot firmer around criminal acts or things that are clear-cut criminal acts.

[00:21:09] Like if I go in and rob a bank, someone gets killed.

[00:21:13] We kind of know what to do with that situation.

[00:21:15] But if I'm doing my job in a corporate setting in a way that ends up really hurting other people,

[00:21:21] it can kind of depend on what state I'm in or what exactly happened.

[00:21:25] And yeah, a lot of bank robbers or violent criminals in the course of their career are not responsible for 64 deaths.

[00:21:34] And this man arguably is.

[00:21:35] Yeah. Good point. Good point.

[00:21:37] The devastation rot is just as bad, if not worse.

[00:21:43] Well, let's move on to this case in Surprise, Arizona.

[00:21:47] My sources for this were USA Today and Fox 10 Phoenix.

[00:21:52] First I'm going to give you just the bare facts of what's happened in the last couple of days here.

[00:21:59] A man named Brock Maeder was found in his residence dead, deceased.

[00:22:08] And also dead and deceased with him were his two children, age six and seven.

[00:22:14] Maeder was going through a divorce, living separately from his wife.

[00:22:20] He had the kids over.

[00:22:23] The mother gets a call or something from the school.

[00:22:26] Hey, the kids are in school.

[00:22:27] She goes over to dad's apartment or whatever it is.

[00:22:33] He's not answering the door even though his car is there.

[00:22:37] She notifies police.

[00:22:40] They come in and they find it's a murder-suicide situation where the children have gunshot wounds to the head.

[00:22:48] Maeder has a gunshot wound to the head and there is a rifle on his lap.

[00:22:55] So this is obviously an absolutely horrific story.

[00:23:02] And what really strikes me about it is when we hear stories like this, when we hear stories of violent crime,

[00:23:10] one thing you often hear is no one saw this coming.

[00:23:15] This caught us all by surprise.

[00:23:18] And when something catches you by surprise, it's obviously horrible and gut-wrenching.

[00:23:24] But it's also horrible and gut-wrenching in a different way when it doesn't catch you by surprise

[00:23:32] and when there are pretty obvious red flags.

[00:23:37] And the people at Fox 10 in Phoenix were able to obtain some court records that cast a light on the history here.

[00:23:51] And it turns out that Maeder had a history of making threats, of being abusive to his wife.

[00:24:01] He'd threatened to kill himself after his wife asked for divorce.

[00:24:07] He owned guns.

[00:24:10] At one point last fall, he took his kids out of school, brought them to a hotel,

[00:24:17] and then calls police and tells them he's having suicidal and homicidal thoughts.

[00:24:24] And so that he was scared for himself and for his family.

[00:24:30] He also spoke about demons.

[00:24:33] He spoke about cults and being scared.

[00:24:38] He had a mental break at some point, which caused him to believe that his wife was under the control of Satan.

[00:24:48] Obviously, a huge number of red flags there.

[00:24:53] It turns out that his soon-to-be ex-wife asked the court to dismiss the protection order on May 1st

[00:25:02] because the divorce was so close to being final.

[00:25:06] So it's really, when we have this kind of information about a person

[00:25:14] and he is still allowed contact to his children and these tragedies happen,

[00:25:20] it's just, it's horrifying because these children could have been protected.

[00:25:27] What do you think should happen when someone is unraveling mentally to that extent?

[00:25:31] And, you know, I saw some of the reports on this indicated that there were some signs he was taking his medication and doing treatment.

[00:25:40] But, I mean, to me, that really doesn't necessarily undo any of those red flags.

[00:25:48] If it was my child, I would be very reluctant to have this individual have any sort of unsupervised contact with my child.

[00:26:00] And I think it's important to look at a case like this very closely, not so much as to assess blame or assign fault to people.

[00:26:08] No, because when you're in a situation like that, you want your children to have contact with their father.

[00:26:14] I mean, you can understand that.

[00:26:15] But I think it's important to, let's figure out what's gone wrong here so it doesn't go wrong in other situations in the future.

[00:26:24] Well, I'm going to tell you, I mean, my opinion has, just from like, frankly, digging into crimes,

[00:26:31] is that we are completely failing mental health-wise in this country.

[00:26:35] And it's not going to, I don't think it's going to be fixed by awareness.

[00:26:40] I mean, I think that's a nice thought.

[00:26:41] And I think letting people know that if they're depressed, they're not alone is all important.

[00:26:45] But that's not going to fix violence like this.

[00:26:49] I think things like having enough bed space would be helpful.

[00:26:54] I think things like if someone is showing red flags, taking away their weapons and taking away their access to vulnerable people like their children is important.

[00:27:05] I think we need to, and I think in certain extreme cases, and certainly I would say some of the stuff around this sounds pretty extreme,

[00:27:13] people need to perhaps be put into some kind of mental institution and receive adequate treatment until they are not a danger to themselves and others.

[00:27:26] Because oftentimes a situation like this could lead to lashing out against other people.

[00:27:31] But I imagine another outcome is that somebody can harm themselves in a pretty extreme way.

[00:27:37] And I just feel like this doesn't seem to be much political will to put the massive, in fairness, resources towards.

[00:27:46] I mean, I think we need a moonshot with mental health at this point.

[00:27:49] We need, there needs to be like extreme vigorous actions that are kind of a comprehensive approach to this.

[00:27:58] The problem is, and I think everyone listening to this, you probably have a household budget that is not infinite.

[00:28:07] And so when you're making decisions about how to spend your money on your house and on your needs, you're going to focus on immediate problems.

[00:28:16] What needs to be done right now?

[00:28:19] You're not going to be focused on things that maybe might be a problem later.

[00:28:25] Maybe they're not a problem.

[00:28:26] And so I think it's easy for governments and stuff to have a similar way of thinking and just focus on the problems that are right in front of us.

[00:28:34] You know, this mental health thing, that's way out in the distance.

[00:28:37] And even if we invest in that, maybe it's hard to tell or evaluate how much good we're doing.

[00:28:43] And it's also a matter of, I mean, like, and then we use the police for everything.

[00:28:48] Mental health crisis leads to a police call and people get hurt.

[00:28:52] And it's like, you know, it should never have come to this point.

[00:28:56] I mean, and I agree it's expensive and whatnot.

[00:29:01] I just think it would improve quality of life for both people who are dealing and struggling with mental health issues as well as for their families, as well as for everybody else in society.

[00:29:13] I mean, it's and I just I mean, I think this is something a lot of people at least recognize that there's an issue around in this country.

[00:29:20] But in situations like this, just there's so much room for things to fall through the cracks to the point where it just leads to an absolute tragedy.

[00:29:27] And it just it's incredibly depressing to see it happen again and again.

[00:29:33] Let's move on.

[00:29:35] I have one more case that I found and I'd like to talk about that.

[00:29:38] And then I think you have a case to bring us home with.

[00:29:41] This is a case out of Kansas City, Missouri.

[00:29:44] And my sources for that are KSHB.com as well as a copy of a lawsuit.

[00:29:52] And so this is an interesting case.

[00:29:54] It goes back to a double murder suicide that happened back in 2022.

[00:30:03] A woman named Sarah Beck, 22 years old, was being stalked by an ex-boyfriend.

[00:30:11] The boyfriend ended up surreptitiously putting a tracker on her car and he tracked her to the home of a new boyfriend, at which point the ex, the stalker, killed her.

[00:30:30] He killed Sarah Beck and he also killed Mikey Williamson, the 20-year-old new friend.

[00:30:36] And then he committed suicide.

[00:30:38] And his name is Dustin Johnson.

[00:30:40] I want to assign blame here for this piece of garbage.

[00:30:45] I didn't even want to mention his name.

[00:30:46] Yeah. No, I mean, what a person.

[00:30:49] The lawsuit largely refers to him as stalker.

[00:30:51] Yeah.

[00:30:54] So what do we do with this?

[00:30:58] The families of the victims have filed a lawsuit against the manufacturer of the GPS tracking device, saying it is basically irresponsible to create these products which can allow you to track exes or secretly track people without their knowledge for nefarious purposes.

[00:31:22] They acknowledge there's some perfectly legitimate uses for devices like this.

[00:31:28] The lawsuit, for instance, mentions there's a rental boat company that when they rent boats, they make sure that each boat has one of these trackers in it so they can keep track of the boats.

[00:31:39] And I'm sure there's other legitimate uses.

[00:31:41] But obviously it's not a legitimate use to secretly put a tracker on your ex's car.

[00:31:47] And so they are filing this lawsuit.

[00:31:51] And I guess I'm curious, what are your thoughts about that?

[00:31:57] To me, when you have technology that serves a purpose that's completely legitimate, like the boat situation that you mentioned, and then also could be used to conduct, you know, horrifying stalking episodes that lead to murder and have all sorts of very, very obvious usages that could be problematic.

[00:32:23] To me, there's a limited use in terms of civilians using this technology.

[00:32:30] Yeah, I don't – I hope they take them for everything they're worth.

[00:32:34] I'm sorry. I mean like that – like it's like we as a society, there's so much – and we're seeing this with especially like artificial intelligence.

[00:32:45] I'm thinking about specifically the role that that is starting to play in CSAM and artificial nudes of underage children being spread around.

[00:32:55] You know, these companies, they create this technology and they unleash it on everybody to make money.

[00:33:03] And then it inevitably harms and damages people's lives.

[00:33:08] But, you know, they got their sales in.

[00:33:10] So I guess it worked out for them.

[00:33:11] I mean, I just – this is like a more of a hardware issue than I guess the – maybe some of the tech giants.

[00:33:18] But nonetheless, yeah, I think the parents are absolutely right to do this.

[00:33:22] One consistent problem I see in our world today is that the pace of science and technological development moves quite a bit faster than lawyers in state houses in Congress writing laws.

[00:33:41] I think we need to spend some time and energy to have some new laws drafted to cover the use of this technology.

[00:33:51] For instance, it should be illegal in any state of the union to surreptitiously put a tracker on a third party's car without their knowledge.

[00:34:02] There's no legitimate reason to do that.

[00:34:05] Well, yeah. But I mean, frankly, stalking laws have not caught up with the reality of the internet.

[00:34:11] Harassment laws have not caught up with the reality of the internet.

[00:34:14] You know, you have people who do not understand the current environment writing laws or focusing on whatever they want to focus on and don't understand –

[00:34:23] Laws need to catch up to the reality.

[00:34:25] But I mean, like you'd like to think that a company or a tech company would be envisioning things like this and taking steps to ensure that that doesn't happen.

[00:34:36] But I think that's too much to ask for at this point.

[00:34:39] I think we've seen the proliferation of just misinformation and nonsense on social media.

[00:34:44] That's very much influenced how I view tech companies in general, frankly.

[00:34:49] I don't feel like the public should have trust in them to do the right thing.

[00:34:54] Because if doing the right thing affects a company's bottom line, I really don't know that you can assume that the right thing is going to be done unless there's severe consequences otherwise.

[00:35:05] So I'm very skeptical.

[00:35:07] I mean, I don't know what some sort of system would look like for ensuring that trackers like this aren't used inappropriately.

[00:35:14] But I mean, having some kind of vetting process would probably be helpful.

[00:35:19] But then you'd sell less trackers, I guess.

[00:35:21] At the very least, if it was illegal, police would have the option to arrest a person just for putting a tracker on a car.

[00:35:31] And this poor woman and her family, she was subjected to a lot of abuse and stress in the months before her death.

[00:35:40] And a lot of it was due to the fact, how does he know where I am?

[00:35:44] And they couldn't figure it out.

[00:35:46] And the way he knew where she was at all the time was with his tracker.

[00:35:50] And again, this is a situation, this man should have been incarcerated.

[00:35:53] If that takes bolstering anti-stalking laws, then bolster them.

[00:35:57] I mean, we hear too many times of people, innocent people losing their lives because of some stalker.

[00:36:03] And whether that person is just a bad person or they're dealing with mental health issues, I think stalking is not treated with the seriousness that it deserves in many jurisdictions.

[00:36:15] And it deserves, I mean, it should be criminalized.

[00:36:19] It should be something that is taken very seriously.

[00:36:23] And it's just not, unfortunately.

[00:36:27] I think you have one more case.

[00:36:29] This is also a stalking case.

[00:36:33] What makes a life a good one?

[00:36:36] Is it the adventure you have?

[00:36:39] Or the friends you find along the way?

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[00:36:50] So, what makes a life a good one?

[00:36:54] In the Coast Guard, we think it's all of the above and more.

[00:36:58] But you'll have to find out for yourself.

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[00:38:03] This case, the more I read about it, I was just shocked.

[00:38:08] And I had not heard about it before, but I'm going to share it.

[00:38:12] So my sources for this are the Associated Press, Vanity Fair, the book Hot Art, Chasing Thieves and Detectives Through the Secret World of Stolen Art by Joshua Nelman, The Lazarus Files, a cold case investigation book by Matthew McGough.

[00:38:30] And I'll share a link to those in our show notes.

[00:38:34] So this all centers around a tenacious detective, and this was a woman who hunted until she got her quarry.

[00:38:42] So in the book Hot Art by Joshua Nelman, I mentioned, he wrote about how he got to ride along with some – a legendary art detective with the Los Angeles Police Department named Don – I'm going to butcher his last name, but it's Rysick.

[00:38:59] And he talks about how this detective called them up and said, hey, come along.

[00:39:05] We just got a call about a burglarized antique store and pulled up in an unmarked Impala.

[00:39:11] They drove off with this author and he got to sort of witness them at work.

[00:39:14] And by them I mean both Rysick and his kind of protege slash mentee Stephanie Lazarus.

[00:39:22] So she was this promising, smart, very – regardless, vivacious detective who was supposed to almost like take over the art theft detail.

[00:39:34] He was training her, specifically sought her out and selected her in 2006.

[00:39:38] She was considered very meticulous.

[00:39:40] She did all these cases where she was looking into the intersection of art and elder abuse and whatnot.

[00:39:47] So she was very well respected.

[00:39:48] But, you know, with the cases that they were looking into, they sort of fell apart within a year.

[00:39:54] Not for lack of evidence, but in the end, Rysick was left without a successor because while Lazarus was chasing art thieves, someone was chasing her.

[00:40:05] So one day she's out.

[00:40:08] She goes to a Costco in Simi Valley, California.

[00:40:11] She drinks soda from a straw there and throws it out.

[00:40:14] Then personnel from the Los Angeles Police Department, Van Nuys Division swoop in, get the cup, rush it off to DNA and they get the results.

[00:40:24] And they find that her DNA is linked to the 1986 murder of a young woman named Sherry Rasmussen.

[00:40:32] I'm sorry, Sherry Rasmussen.

[00:40:34] And this is a case that we have to go back in time to understand.

[00:40:40] But so far we have a detective, an art detective with the LAPD who's linked to this cold case murder.

[00:40:48] So, you know, you want to think that that was just a shock to everyone.

[00:40:52] But unfortunately, as we're getting into, this was one of those things that should never have gone on this long as far as cold cases go.

[00:41:00] So going back in time to the early 80s, to the University of California, Los Angeles, you know, undergraduates are living in halls together.

[00:41:09] So we're going to focus on Lazarus and another undergraduate named John Rutten.

[00:41:15] They're both into sports. Lazarus has kind of a kind of an abrasive personality, but it's kind of fun.

[00:41:21] And, you know, they kind of connect and they become friends.

[00:41:24] She seems to delight in pranking him.

[00:41:26] They start having sex and it's seemingly kind of a casual relationship, but they're definitely sexually active together.

[00:41:34] After graduation, she joins the LAPD and becomes a uniformed officer.

[00:41:39] They keep hooking up. Then Rutten meets a young woman named Sherry Rasmussen.

[00:41:44] She's a very, very promising young woman.

[00:41:47] She's a nurse. She started college at like age 16 and like by age 20 was like a nursing director.

[00:41:53] I mean, like she was really, really talented.

[00:41:55] She was going places.

[00:41:57] They fall in love and Rutten kind of breaks it off with Lazarus, who starts stalking the couple.

[00:42:07] There's one story in the book that's related where she shows up at their apartment in Van Nuys and like has water skis that she wants Rutten to wax for her.

[00:42:19] And Rasmussen, you know, Sherry is really uncomfortable with this and is like, can you ask her to stop coming around?

[00:42:26] Are you still, do you still have feelings for her?

[00:42:29] And he kind of gaslights her and is like, no, no, no.

[00:42:33] It's not that. Just go along with it or ignore her.

[00:42:38] It's not a big deal. He won't stand up and say don't come to our house again.

[00:42:42] Like he's just kind of letting this play out.

[00:42:44] And unbeknownst to Sherry, unfortunately, Rutten and Lazarus had hooked up at one point while she was engaged to him.

[00:42:53] So the stalking gets worse.

[00:42:55] Sherry becomes convinced that Lazarus is like following her in the streets.

[00:42:59] At some point, Lazarus comes and confronts Sherry and says that basically like her and John's relationship isn't over and kind of, you know, like he's mine basically.

[00:43:10] Then, you know, but Rutten and Sherry get married Monday, February 24th, 1986.

[00:43:18] He goes to work.

[00:43:19] She doesn't want to give a speech that day.

[00:43:22] So she sort of like pretends to be sick, stays at home.

[00:43:25] And that day, a maid cleaning a nearby condo hears fighting at 1230 but assumes it's a domestic altercation and doesn't do anything.

[00:43:37] When Rutten gets home, he finds the house in disarray.

[00:43:39] He finds a bloody handprint near their burglar alarm.

[00:43:43] And he finds Sherry's dead body beaten and shot to death on the floor.

[00:43:51] So LAPD comes in to investigate.

[00:43:54] They immediately decide that it must be a burglar because there's some signs of burglary.

[00:43:59] And that and that's that.

[00:44:02] A bite mark is found on Sherry's body.

[00:44:05] It's swab for DNA.

[00:44:07] That's going to be important later.

[00:44:09] It's determined that she was killed with a .38 caliber weapon.

[00:44:13] Everyone's a bit confused by the burglary angle because while we do know that burglaries can result in death,

[00:44:19] it was one of those things where the way the crime scene was, the question the family had is why didn't the burglar just run?

[00:44:25] Why did this become a fight?

[00:44:27] Like why engage at that point?

[00:44:29] Meanwhile, her parents are telling the LAPD this woman was being stalked by Lazarus, one of your cops.

[00:44:36] We are very concerned about this.

[00:44:37] She felt very uncomfortable and threatened by this woman.

[00:44:40] What do you have to say about that?

[00:44:42] And the LAPD is like, well, yeah, but it's a burglar, so don't worry about it.

[00:44:45] Lazarus over the years continues to rise.

[00:44:51] She becomes a detective.

[00:44:53] She starts her own private investigation firm in the 90s.

[00:44:57] They start looking at this case again.

[00:44:59] Remains cold for a long time.

[00:45:01] A criminalist even looks at the bite and the saliva and determines the saliva belongs to a female.

[00:45:09] And the saliva, the DNA from the saliva is not in CODIS, which is weird because if it was just a burglar, you know, you think maybe a career criminal, you'd think that they'd be in the system.

[00:45:20] Exactly.

[00:45:22] So, you know, but she later sued the city and she sued the LAPD because she felt that they were like, don't look into that.

[00:45:28] Don't worry about it.

[00:45:30] You know, this only ends up getting broken later on.

[00:45:38] Basically, a cold case team with the LAPD looked at it and they did a really good thorough job.

[00:45:45] They were actually pretty skeptical that it could be Lazarus at first, too.

[00:45:49] They just they at that point, Rutten had told police numerous times that he and Lazarus were broken up for a while before all this happened.

[00:45:56] So they were going on that.

[00:45:58] They didn't know that he also hooked up with her pretty recently before the murder, but they ended up digging into it.

[00:46:06] They basically had a bunch of women that they thought could be the suspect.

[00:46:11] They looked into all of them, eliminated all of them.

[00:46:13] It was down to two.

[00:46:15] One was a nurse or a colleague at work that she had issues with.

[00:46:18] They eliminated her with DNA and then they they got the cup at Costco from Lazarus and it was a match.

[00:46:27] So they ask her, they tell a lie.

[00:46:30] So June 5th, 2009.

[00:46:33] The detectives call Lazarus say, hey, can you meet us at the Parker Center, which is like an administrative building for the LAPD?

[00:46:40] And they did that so she'd have to check in her weapon.

[00:46:43] And they said, we have an art thief lead.

[00:46:47] We just want to run by you.

[00:46:49] She shows up.

[00:46:51] They start asking her about Rutten and Sherry and all that.

[00:46:54] And she's saying, I don't really remember.

[00:46:56] And she's you know, she's a cop.

[00:46:58] So she knows that something's up.

[00:47:00] So she's becoming evasive.

[00:47:02] Then she's kind of changing her story and saying, well, I may have met her once or twice.

[00:47:05] I did go over their apartment.

[00:47:07] When she kind of gets fed up and leaves, they arrest her.

[00:47:10] So she was ultimately convicted in 2012 of first degree murder.

[00:47:16] She was sentenced to 27 years to life in prison and she filed a long appeal.

[00:47:22] And, you know, this has gone on forever.

[00:47:25] The reason that I saw this is an Associated Press article came up recently where she's going for parole.

[00:47:35] And spoiler alert, that's been delayed.

[00:47:40] But, you know, they this this is just I mean, she would not admit to actually to guilt for a very long time until eventually.

[00:47:55] I mean, in my view, until parole became the only option, until she exhausted everything else and dragged this family through all these other things.

[00:48:02] So.

[00:48:04] She's got her people about how she's had a spiritual awakening and is so remorseful and is such a good person now, you know, she's actually studying for degrees and stuff in prison.

[00:48:15] And the families of Sherry have come out and just said, you know, she put us through agony all these years and getting a degree in prison isn't exactly.

[00:48:26] She doesn't make up for that.

[00:48:27] No, it doesn't quite make up for it.

[00:48:29] Like good for you for using that time for something.

[00:48:31] But come on.

[00:48:33] And yeah, I mean, I don't know.

[00:48:36] I'm just curious to me.

[00:48:38] Like again, she was she was convicted in 2012.

[00:48:42] It's 2024.

[00:48:43] It doesn't seem like a particularly long time, given how long they were waiting to find out what happened to Sherry.

[00:48:51] And given that it seems like only recently did she even admit what she had done.

[00:48:57] So I guess what's your take on that whole story, that whole saga?

[00:49:03] I guess when I look at parole, I look at is there genuine remorse?

[00:49:09] Is this person going to be a threat to the community?

[00:49:13] How long do other people who have committed this sort of offense?

[00:49:17] How long have they been in prison?

[00:49:19] Are there any additional factors that should be considered?

[00:49:23] I think when the person who is a police officer is guilty of murder, a police officer is someone in whom society has put in a lot of trust and faith and given a great deal of power.

[00:49:35] So maybe that should be looked at.

[00:49:37] I mean, she was showing up to Sherry's door dressed in uniform, armed and basically.

[00:49:43] I mean, surreptitiously threatening her and making her feel uncomfortable in her own space.

[00:49:49] This is egregious behavior.

[00:49:50] I feel like this woman doesn't deserve any consideration for parole.

[00:49:54] I think she betrayed her trust, as you said, society.

[00:49:58] The cases she was working on were thrown out because they weren't going to have the lead detective, a murder suspect, get on the stand.

[00:50:05] So her actions hurt other people.

[00:50:07] And, you know, I'm sorry, but eventually kind of coming to the end of the road with your appeals and then being like, all right, yeah, I did do it.

[00:50:13] Sorry about that.

[00:50:16] Yeah, that's not kind of like the level of remorse you want to see.

[00:50:18] I don't really care if someone's doing like programs in prison.

[00:50:21] That's good for you, but that doesn't, you know, I don't see why people always bring that up or like a spiritual awakening.

[00:50:29] How does anyone assess that?

[00:50:31] Come on.

[00:50:32] Like and in this situation, I mean, I'm all about rehabilitation.

[00:50:36] I'm all about people, especially for people who've come from a background where they were impoverished or dealing with a lot of abuse and going through something and made mistakes that led them to even even committing suicide.

[00:50:48] I mean, I don't want to commit violent crimes.

[00:50:50] To me, there's a there's a big argument for that.

[00:50:52] And I think that that should be spoken about.

[00:50:55] But something like this.

[00:50:57] I mean, this was a cold blooded execution of a love rival that she hid for decades while the family continued to suffer and seek answers.

[00:51:05] I mean, this I mean, even where you get to the point where you cold bloodedly like gunned down a love rival like this.

[00:51:14] I don't even know.

[00:51:15] Like, I mean, I know love makes you do really crazy things and whatnot.

[00:51:19] But like I there's certain crimes where I can almost get into the mindset where I understand them.

[00:51:25] But something like that.

[00:51:26] It's like he's just not that interested in you move on, like go find someone else.

[00:51:29] If he's picked another woman over you, that's painful.

[00:51:32] That's upsetting.

[00:51:33] Go live your life.

[00:51:35] Don't take it out on the woman.

[00:51:37] Yeah, like I don't I just don't understand.

[00:51:39] I just don't understand.

[00:51:41] And yeah, I mean, honestly, like I when it's a situation like this and it's only been a few years, frankly, and someone's that desperate to get out of prison, it's like, are you remorseful?

[00:51:50] Like, are you just I don't know, just trying to get out as fast as possible.

[00:51:55] Maybe.

[00:51:57] Maybe the remorseful thing to do would be to understand that.

[00:52:01] You know, whenever you're coming up, you're harming the family again.

[00:52:04] Maybe you should just take the punishment for a while.

[00:52:09] I don't know.

[00:52:11] Interesting.

[00:52:12] And also this whole thing, I think the cold case detectives and the detectives who took it on in the modern day did a great job.

[00:52:17] So not criticizing them, but this whole thing really seemed like the LAPD was not not looking at this as carefully as it needed to be.

[00:52:26] And isn't that convenient given that one of its own was a pretty good suspect from early on and they were notified of that and they just happened to keep saying got to be burglars.

[00:52:35] Like in most situation, it probably would be the boring burglar answer.

[00:52:39] But maybe look at the fact the bite mark.

[00:52:43] Looks more like a woman's bite mark and the fact that the DNA is a woman's and maybe you start thinking about things from an evidentiary perspective rather than just like got to be a burglary.

[00:52:53] Yeah.

[00:52:54] Hopefully if ever a podcaster was suspected of involvement in the crime, we would take that possibility seriously.

[00:53:01] There you go.

[00:53:02] I think we'd probably assume guilt right away because of our opinions on podcasters.

[00:53:09] But yeah, that's kind of the story.

[00:53:10] And just sometimes I tend to be kind of someone who's like an advocate for the boring answer, which would be burglary or burglary gone wrong.

[00:53:19] But sometimes the evidence points to the interesting answer and you have to be open either way.

[00:53:26] And I think there was one more thing you want to talk about before we wrap up.

[00:53:29] Yes.

[00:53:30] This is hopefully not too boring.

[00:53:31] This is a we have shirts.

[00:53:35] Anyone a lot of people have asked us.

[00:53:37] And specifically, there are shirts emblazoned with our logo.

[00:53:40] They're not just random shirt.

[00:53:41] White plain T-shirts that are just not nondescript.

[00:53:46] No, they are really I think I think they're awesome.

[00:53:49] I think the printing company did an amazing job.

[00:53:50] They're very colorful and they have our logo.

[00:53:53] It says the murder sheet and then people if you know, you know, and they're great.

[00:53:58] They come from sizes.

[00:54:00] I think we have small, medium, large, extra large and 2XL for now, you know, and you can buy them by going to murder sheet shop.com.

[00:54:12] And you can order there and patron patrons from our Patreon get five dollars off.

[00:54:17] They get free shipping.

[00:54:19] So, you know, consider coming and buying our merch.

[00:54:23] This is the first time we're doing it.

[00:54:25] We're really excited about it.

[00:54:26] Some people have already gotten them and they really like them.

[00:54:28] So I'm excited.

[00:54:29] We took two shirts for ourselves so we can go wear them and be awkward in places.

[00:54:34] I'm sure at some point.

[00:54:36] Are we going to wear them at the same time or is it just gonna be like one of us wearing them, which would look weirder?

[00:54:42] I don't know.

[00:54:43] You tell us.

[00:54:44] Send us an email.

[00:54:46] How can we be as awkward as possible?

[00:54:49] But I think it's going to be I think they're really cool.

[00:54:52] And I just I hope you guys like them and I hope you order some.

[00:54:56] Anyways, that's my pitch.

[00:54:59] What are you laughing at?

[00:55:01] You're such a Svengali over there.

[00:55:03] I'm a Svengali.

[00:55:05] I'm just telling them what we have.

[00:55:08] Jeez.

[00:55:09] We've got shirts if you want some order them.

[00:55:11] Thanks for my pitch.

[00:55:12] What am I going to say?

[00:55:13] The shirts will clear your skin and, you know, water your crops and it's going to give you a new lease on life.

[00:55:21] Now people who hate us are going to like clip that and put it everywhere.

[00:55:25] Anya Kane doing fraud.

[00:55:29] Oh, man.

[00:55:32] But you're not doing fraud.

[00:55:33] I mean, talk about their great shirts.

[00:55:34] They're very well made.

[00:55:36] They're very comfortable.

[00:55:38] I feel like I could wear mine anywhere.

[00:55:40] You wore yours to a wedding, which prompted some uncomfortable conversations.

[00:55:45] No, he didn't really.

[00:55:46] I'm just kidding.

[00:55:47] But I could.

[00:55:48] But you.

[00:55:49] Okay.

[00:55:50] Well, you can definitely wear them to whatever you want.

[00:55:54] And, you know, I mean, I just think we really appreciate purchases because they really help support the show and help us do our original reporting research, traveling to interview people, traveling to look at crime scenes, things like that.

[00:56:09] And so I really just everyone who's bought one.

[00:56:11] Thank you so much.

[00:56:12] Like, thank you sincerely.

[00:56:14] Because, again, it means a lot and it's incredibly supportive.

[00:56:16] And if you're interested, please let us know if you have any questions.

[00:56:20] You know, we're at murder sheet at Gmail dot com.

[00:56:23] Happy to happy to chat and answer any questions you might have.

[00:56:26] Thank you so much for listening.

[00:56:28] And I hope you have a great weekend.

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