The Cheat Sheet: Patios and Persuasion

The Cheat Sheet is The Murder Sheet's segment breaking down weekly news and updates in some of the murder cases we cover.

Today, we'll be covering three high-profile cases: the social media-related homicide involving Justin Mohn and his father Michael in Pennsylvania, the mysterious deaths of David Harrington, Ricky Johnson, and Clayton McGeeney outside Jordan Willis's home in Kansas City, Missouri, and the jury tampering angle of the case against Alex Murdaugh.

NBC's coverage of the slaying of Michael Mohn in Pennsylvania:https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/pa-man-arrested-decapitating-father-youtube-video-rcna136509

6 ABC Action News's coverage of Justin Mohn's bizarre behavior before his father's killing: https://6abc.com/man-accused-of-beheading-father-justin-mohn-michael-middletown-township-pennsylvania/14377336/

https://nypost.com/2024/01/26/news/5th-kansas-city-chiefs-fan-at-party-where-3-died-idd-as-alex-weamer-lee-report/

Coverage from Fox News about Jordan Willis checking into rehab: https://www.foxnews.com/us/kansas-city-chiefs-fans-deaths-jordan-willis-checks-rehab-families-await-toxicology-results

NBC's coverage of the latest hearing around jury tampering in the Alex Murdaugh case: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/clerk-denies-jury-tampering-alex-murdaugh-seeks-new-trial-hearing-rcna136161

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[00:00.000 --> 00:30.000] Today on the Cheat Sheet, we're going to be talking about three different cases. One out of Pennsylvania, one out of Missouri, and another out of South Carolina. I'll bet you'll guess what that one is. And they all have received some media attention, some certainly more than others. But I think each of them present some sort of interesting issues in crime to speak about. Whether it's social media, or [00:30.000 --> 01:00.000] the murder sheet, rushes to judgment, or issues of fair trials. My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist. And I'm Kevin Greenley. I'm an attorney. And this is the Murder Sheet. We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases. We're the Murder Sheet. And this is the Cheat Sheet, patios and persuasion. [01:00.000 --> 01:30.000] And this is the Cheat Sheet, patios. And this is the Cheat Sheet. And this is the Cheat Sheet. And this is the Cheat Sheet. And this is the Cheat Sheet. And this is the Cheat Sheet. And this is the Cheat Sheet. And this is the Cheat Sheet. And this is the Cheat Sheet. And this is the Cheat Sheet. And this is the Cheat Sheet. And this is the Cheat Sheet. And this is the Cheat Sheet. And this is the Cheat Sheet. And this is the Cheat Sheet. And this is the Cheat Sheet. And this is the Cheat Sheet. And this is the Cheat Sheet. And this is the Cheat Sheet. And this is the Cheat Sheet. And this is the Cheat Sheet. And this is the Cheat Sheet. [01:30.000 --> 01:47.200] Why don't we start with this case you were telling me about that came from Pennsylvania, that it certainly is getting a lot of attention lately. [01:47.600 --> 01:58.880] Well, this is one that's interesting to me, because it touches upon weirdly enough some issues of social media and new media specifically around YouTube. So while they're certainly [01:58.880 --> 02:28.880] disturbing political and crime related implications for the case, there's also a wider context there. And I think you're the one who actually found this one. So I appreciate you flagging it with me because it is interesting, albeit very disturbing. So this starts with a man named Justin Moan. He, I think I'm saying his name right. If not, I apologize. But he uploads an episode, a 14 minute video clip to YouTube of himself talking titled Moan's Militia, Call to Arms for American [02:28.880 --> 02:37.200] Patriots. He's attacking President Joe Biden. He's spouting all kinds of conspiracy theories. So you're thinking right now, a YouTube video. [02:37.200 --> 02:44.000] Yeah, so at this point, this sounds like a lot of videos that you're apt to see on YouTube. [02:44.000 --> 02:58.840] Yes, because YouTube is designed in a way that promotes flashy stuff that is supposed to be addictive, like all social media platforms. And there's not really moderation, as you would hope, as it would be with a traditional media [02:59.040 --> 03:04.960] outlet. The moderation on YouTube is awful. We'll talk about that in a minute. But it's important to note here. [03:04.960 --> 03:24.880] It's important to know that it's also important to note that YouTube arranges things through their different algorithms. If you don't like President Biden, if you don't like former President Trump, and you watch videos attacking them, YouTube will start recommending other videos to you that will line up with your political belief. [03:24.880 --> 03:26.880] And we wonder, it's kind of an echo chain. [03:26.880 --> 03:39.920] It creates a radicalization factory. That's what it does. Because there's no nuance. There's no, you're hearing increasingly extreme views, whatever you want, you know, it could be, it doesn't even have to be political. [03:39.920 --> 03:52.320] It could just be whatever fandom you're a part of. You get so down the rabbit hole, and you're fed all of this very one sided stuff. And then people are surprised when people are going, you know, out there and being incredibly radical. [03:52.320 --> 04:12.720] So it's, it's a problem. Social media is a problem. And our human brains are, we're not ready for this. And now we're seeing the consequences. But anyways, so Justin Moan has this stupid video, ranting. And what makes this notable, and the reason we're covering on the cheat sheet is then it gets incredibly disturbing. [04:12.720 --> 04:38.720] He pulls up a plastic grocery bag. And in it is the head of his father, Michael Moan, that also later appears in some sort of like pot, like a cooking pot. Yeah. And he is going on about his father, Michael Moan, was a federal employee and death to all federal employees and all this very, very violent rhetoric. And he's obviously just murdered his father. [04:39.720 --> 04:50.720] And then he goes on the run. So let's pause here for a minute. Not only did he murder his father, but he thought it was a good idea to go on YouTube and advertise that fact. [04:51.720 --> 05:06.720] A lot of this man's history seems to speak to instability of some kind. I'm not going to say we're not psychologists, and I don't feel comfortable making some sort of diagnosis. And also, that wouldn't really be an excuse in most cases. But I think that [05:07.720 --> 05:24.720] there's a lot of weird stuff in this man's background that at the very least indicates that he has a history of carrying around extreme grievances, which may or may not point to some sort of emotional or mental disturbance. [05:25.720 --> 05:26.720] What do you mean? Can you tell us some examples? [05:27.720 --> 05:37.720] So Justin Moan filed, I think it was like three lawsuits against different entities, including the U.S. government, complaining that they let him take out student loans. [05:38.720 --> 05:46.720] I think the idea is he goes into debt with these student loans, and then he's not able to get a job. Therefore, he was somehow conned or tricked. [05:47.720 --> 05:56.720] No, listen, I think we can all, in this day and age, understand the frustration of people in that situation and dealing with it. [05:57.720 --> 06:05.720] And so, to me, the fact that he was taking action around that, it's not necessarily that he was frustrated or even tried to take action. [06:06.720 --> 06:13.720] Because maybe you could argue that there are problems with the way our educational system works and forcing people into debt to obtain an education. [06:14.720 --> 06:17.720] But the way he did it, let's talk about the way he did it. [06:18.720 --> 06:26.720] When he was not getting rulings in his favor, it seems like he tried to force the judge in that case to recuse himself alleging all kinds of financial interests. [06:27.720 --> 06:33.720] And the judge comes back with basically saying, that's totally unfounded. Get out of here, basically. [06:34.720 --> 06:40.720] So it's like when he doesn't get his way, then it escalates. It's not enough to just bring a lawsuit. [06:40.720 --> 06:45.720] Then the judge is in on it. The judge is in on it to make me, you know, take on all this debt. [06:46.720 --> 06:50.720] So that, to me, that's going to have some concerns. [06:51.720 --> 06:57.720] Another bizarre aspect of this is when I researched Michael or Mike Moan, the victim in this case. [06:58.720 --> 07:00.720] I don't see anything about him being a federal employee. [07:01.720 --> 07:05.720] I don't think other outlets have been able to uncover that connection yet either. [07:05.720 --> 07:10.720] So I wonder if it's possible he was. And we're just not finding that. [07:11.720 --> 07:14.720] And he was a low profile person who kept that out of the intranet. [07:15.720 --> 07:21.720] It's also possible that he was not. And his son became convinced that he was, maybe because of some disagreement. [07:22.720 --> 07:27.720] And if the son already has a very dim view of the U.S. government and his dad's a federal employee, then in his mind, [07:28.720 --> 07:32.720] then you can, you know, see where things start to get dangerous and possibly escalate. [07:33.720 --> 07:37.720] You know, I think some local outlets uncovered that Moan may have owned some local businesses. [07:38.720 --> 07:42.720] So not exactly like a federal agent or something. [07:43.720 --> 07:48.720] And didn't Justin Moan self publish some books on Amazon that are kind of odd? [07:49.720 --> 07:55.720] Yeah, some weird dystopian fiction and music. So he was trying to do a lot. [07:56.720 --> 08:00.720] I mean, not that there's anything inherently concerning about writing fiction or writing music. That's not the issue. [08:01.720 --> 08:08.720] Well, the books are odd. One of the books that is self published is titled The Second Messiah, King of Earth. [08:09.720 --> 08:15.720] And it is a fictional book that is described as being based on the life of author and musician Justin Moan. [08:16.720 --> 08:20.720] So that seems to be suggesting that he saw himself as a messiah. [08:21.720 --> 08:25.720] Yeah. And that level of self aggrandizement is always going to be concerning. [08:26.720 --> 08:32.720] So I think we're we're seeing a picture come together of a person who I'm just going to say unstable. [08:33.720 --> 08:34.720] Again, we don't know if there's a diagnosis. [08:35.720 --> 08:38.720] Didn't the songs he write have a very anti-woman slant? [08:39.720 --> 08:42.720] Yes, he did not like women. Very misogynistic. [08:43.720 --> 08:44.720] Women are getting all the breaks. [08:45.720 --> 08:51.720] Women are getting it's a woman's world. Yeah. So when when you're seeing the trifecta of self aggrandizement, [08:52.720 --> 08:57.720] women are at fault for everything bad in my life in the world. Extreme politics. [08:58.720 --> 09:03.720] Everyone's against me, including, you know, the judge in a lawsuit I filed. [09:05.720 --> 09:08.720] You know, that's that's looking like a person who's a walking red flag. [09:09.720 --> 09:17.720] And unfortunately, in this case, it led to the death of his father because so on January 30th around 2 p.m. [09:18.720 --> 09:24.720] Justin's mother and Mike's wife, Denise, apparently left the house when she came back at 7 p.m. that night. [09:25.720 --> 09:29.720] Michael was already dead. Police found him in a downstairs bathroom. [09:30.720 --> 09:35.720] There was a bloody machete, a knife, and his head was found in a plastic bag in a cooking pot. [09:36.720 --> 09:38.720] And moan was arrested later on. [09:39.720 --> 09:45.720] He had been he had driven off the family car, which had been stolen and and he was arrested. [09:45.720 --> 09:48.720] So he's, you know, but let's let's talk about for a moment. [09:49.720 --> 09:52.720] Circle back to what we mentioned in the in the first part of this. [09:53.720 --> 09:54.720] I haven't watched the video. I'm not going to seek it out. [09:55.720 --> 09:59.720] I would encourage other people not to seek it out because when you're giving attention, it's not a neutral action. [10:00.720 --> 10:01.720] It's promoting it online. [10:02.720 --> 10:07.720] When we search and look for something, it gains power, essentially. [10:08.720 --> 10:13.720] But media reports indicate that this YouTube video is up for. [10:13.720 --> 10:17.720] And up or circulating for hours. [10:18.720 --> 10:21.720] I saw one media report say six hours. [10:22.720 --> 10:30.720] I don't know whether they mean that the actual YouTube video was just up or whether after it got taken down, it was put up again by other actors. [10:31.720 --> 10:34.720] I don't know. Either way, it's incredibly disturbing. [10:35.720 --> 10:42.720] I mean, this is this is a video that's literally in the aftermath of a murder involving a severed head. [10:43.720 --> 10:47.720] It's horrible. And this is just out there. [10:48.720 --> 11:01.720] I mean, I can't I can't express enough how little faith and confidence I personally have in YouTube and other social media platforms to effectively moderate their sites to minimize harm. [11:02.720 --> 11:04.720] And this is like this is such an extreme example. [11:05.720 --> 11:09.720] I mean, we're talking about bullying, harassment, stalking. [11:09.720 --> 11:12.720] That's all occurring. But this is an outright murder. [11:13.720 --> 11:16.720] If you can't stop that, I mean, that should be the baseline. [11:18.720 --> 11:25.720] And there's just seemingly no will to do anything because that then that affects their bottom line if they have to get that far into content moderation. [11:26.720 --> 11:29.720] So they have these little band-aid things that they do that they don't work. [11:30.720 --> 11:32.720] They're not effective. And then you have situations like this. [11:33.720 --> 11:39.720] And we need to stop almost looking at it like it's just a neutral thing or like, oh, what are they supposed to do? [11:40.720 --> 11:45.720] They could moderate their content and they don't want to do that again because it gets complicated. [11:46.720 --> 11:47.720] Well, it gets complicated, but also it costs money. [11:48.720 --> 11:49.720] Let's be honest here. [11:50.720 --> 12:00.720] It gets complicated because if they start heavily moderating their content, the suggestion is that anything that YouTube publishes has been reviewed and approved. [12:01.720 --> 12:07.720] And so then they technically there's a better argument for them to be held liable for slanderous statements. [12:08.720 --> 12:10.720] They're just putting everything up. They can say we're not checking everything. [12:11.720 --> 12:19.720] So it's not it's not on us if someone the tech platforms, the tech giants have sucked up most of the advertising dollars. [12:20.720 --> 12:24.720] That is why we are seeing local and national press outlets close. [12:24.720 --> 12:36.720] And so then all we're left with is them. And they are hubs of misinformation, hubs of radical and frankly often violent ideologies and speech. [12:37.720 --> 12:46.720] And it's a disaster. I mean, we're getting, you know, I can be very critical of the mainstream press and traditional press. [12:47.720 --> 12:50.720] But what that's being replaced with is garbage. [12:50.720 --> 12:55.720] And it's it's terrible to see. And this is just a very stunning example of how bad it is. [12:56.720 --> 13:08.720] And it's a very unfortunate situation for this family that their trauma, the people who loved Mike Moone's trauma is now including his wife, including his wife. [13:09.720 --> 13:19.720] You know, I don't know whether Justin Moone has some sort of mental illness that would explain this behavior and perhaps not is not competent or if he is competent and he just has a personality disorder that would explain this behavior. [13:20.720 --> 13:34.720] I don't know. But either way, this family's privacy and in my opinion, you know, their trauma has been compounded by what happened here and the fact that this was allowed to linger on. [13:35.720 --> 13:41.720] I think it racked up like 5000 views is what I read in the media. So I just think it's it's disgraceful. [13:42.720 --> 13:49.720] And some things need something needs to change. I'm not confident that anything will, though, because they don't want to disrupt their lucrative business model. [13:50.720 --> 13:54.720] And they don't care. It's been. I mean, it's been years. This has happened again and again. [13:55.720 --> 14:06.720] There's been Facebook lives where people have been killed. There's been all sorts of I mean, it's just it's just something that I just think they view as part of the territory and they'll deal with it on a case by case basis. [14:06.720 --> 14:19.720] But there's not going to be any true reform. So now shall we go to Missouri? Missouri. I know lately we've been getting an awful lot of news about the Kansas City Chiefs because of Taylor Swift. [14:20.720 --> 14:28.720] Taylor Swift is romantically involved with the player on that team. Travis Kelce. Travis Kelce? I don't know how to say his name. I'm sorry. [14:28.720 --> 14:39.720] That's why I avoided saying the name kind of to say love Taylor Swift. I'm not super familiar with her music, but it's she seems like a very talented, impressive performer. [14:40.720 --> 14:52.720] So, yeah, unfortunately, so that's all good news. And that's nice. They have a nice relationship. Also, it's great news. I mean, I don't know anything about football, but the Kansas City Chiefs are going to be in the Super Bowl, right? [14:53.720 --> 15:07.720] Didn't that just happen? That just happened. I don't know anything about football, but the Kansas City Royals have a beautiful baseball stadium. Also, I just like the second only I've never been to Kansas City, but for some reason, I have a very positive view of the city. [15:08.720 --> 15:19.720] And I just I think it'd be cool to visit. I think you'd enjoy it. I like the vibes that I seem to get from afar. So it's always been one of those places. I'm like, yeah, good for them. I don't know. I'm sorry. [15:19.720 --> 15:28.720] Hopefully some of our listeners are from Kansas City and barbecue, some great jazz stuff, great baseball stadium. For some reason, I think they're going to be replacing it soon. [15:29.720 --> 15:42.720] But it's a great town. So unfortunately, though, all the news out of Kansas City has not been good lately. Recently, there's been a real media firestorm around a case of several suspicious deaths that happened there. [15:43.720 --> 15:52.720] And it's a complicated story. And I'm going to try to stick to the facts with this because there's so much that is unclear right now to me. [15:53.720 --> 16:01.720] But it is received. That has not that has not stopped the media and social media from weighing in in a big way. [16:02.720 --> 16:14.720] I'm looking forward to this because I've seen little headlines about this particular story. And it seemed complicated. And so I didn't dive in. So I'm looking forward to you explaining it to not only two listeners, but explaining it to me. [16:15.720 --> 16:25.720] I'll do the thinking for the both of us. No, I'm just kidding. You may have a different opinion than I do. And so and so many are listeners. And so I'm I'm I'm couching this in and I'm going to make some statements and you don't have to agree with me. [16:26.720 --> 16:41.720] I'm very much open to being wrong or having the wrong idea with this. But I think there's some things that concern me about this. So on January 7th, the Kansas City Chiefs were set to play the L.A. Chargers. [16:42.720 --> 16:54.720] And so based on that, a man named Jordan Willis, who is a research scientist in Kansas City, Missouri, that's where he lives. That's where his rented houses where he lives. [16:55.720 --> 17:09.720] He has a, you know, I guess I don't know if you'd call it a party, but a gathering. And several friends are there. Ricky Johnson, who was 38, David Harrington, who was 37 and Clayton McGinney, who was 36. [17:10.720 --> 17:28.720] As well as another man named Alex Wemerly. So what? Let's let's set the scene a little bit because I feel like that's important. So so let's talk about the actual residents in physical terms, because sometimes that helps me. [17:29.720 --> 17:37.720] And I spend a lot of time looking at this on Google Maps and Zillow and things like that. So this is on a point to eight acre lot. [17:38.720 --> 17:40.720] So just a little bit bigger than a quarter of an acre. [17:40.720 --> 17:56.720] Yes. The property is hemmed in in the back with a big privacy fence that was installed in 2019. And if you go to the edge of the property, which is the next street, this kind of a main street behind it, you can also see the privacy fence. [17:56.720 --> 18:09.720] So it's very much hemming it in and there's a patio out back, a large patio. And it's a very it looks like a nice, quiet neighborhood, nice houses. [18:09.720 --> 18:14.720] So just to give you a sense of, you know, what what it looks like. [18:15.720 --> 18:34.720] So these guys are all there. Now, Wemerly has has a lawyer now who is a man named Andrew Talg. Sorry if I'm saying his name wrong. So the statement that they've put out is that Wemerly left the other four around seven p.m. [18:35.720 --> 18:46.720] He says at that time, things were fine. They were all watching Jeopardy. That's kind of a nice. I mean, I think we can all imagine hanging out with your friends. You watch the game. You watch Jeopardy. It's chill. [18:46.720 --> 18:59.720] But unfortunately, the remaining three guests who remained there did not come back and were missing then their family and friends trying to get in touch with them. [18:59.720 --> 19:07.720] Not hearing from them, trying to maybe even get in touch with Willis, the homeowner. All of their cars are still there. [19:07.720 --> 19:25.720] And to give you a sense, January 7th was a Saturday. So Monday passes, no word. Then Tuesday, January 9th rolls around. And that is when [19:25.720 --> 19:39.720] McGinney's fiance comes by and finds the bodies in the backyard, calls the police. Willis is cuffed and questioned outside his house. [19:39.720 --> 19:49.720] Things things kind of get rolling. But ultimately, police tell the media there's no signs of foul play here. So what happened? [19:49.720 --> 20:02.720] I know that Willis has made comments through an attorney to the media indicating that he was asleep wearing noise canceling headphones near a loud. I believe it was a fan. [20:02.720 --> 20:14.720] And the question is, how can you be asleep for two days, including a Monday? I don't know what this man's work schedule is, but I think we can maybe hit the day off. That seems unusual. [20:15.720 --> 20:23.720] At the same time, there's also been so I mean, I guess I'm saying all of that. How does that strike you? Is that weird? [20:23.720 --> 20:31.720] Yeah, it's weird. I'd wonder if there was any kind of a gas leak or something, but there's another guy in there who's fine. [20:31.720 --> 20:37.720] Yeah. And these guys were outside of the house and he's inside the house. Yeah. [20:37.720 --> 20:53.720] Okay, there's been a lot of discussion of like, there must have been a crime here. And while I think this is all highly, highly, highly unusual, I think we really need to restrain ourselves in the true crime community before we decide that that must be the case. [20:53.720 --> 21:04.720] Because I don't think we have enough information about what happened here. The police are saying that there's no signs of foul play. So that tells me that the causes of death were not violent. [21:04.720 --> 21:16.720] They were not shot, things like that. Toxicology and autopsy results have seemingly not been publicized yet, which seems a bit weird because it's been a while. [21:16.720 --> 21:25.720] I don't know what's going on there. The families of these men have talked about feeling like they've been cut off and not, not really getting answers from the police. [21:25.720 --> 21:44.720] So there's a lot of anger coming from the families toward police and Willis. And I can understand why, because if my loved one is at your house and you're not contacting me back and then suddenly he and his friends are dead and your story doesn't make any sense, that's going to make anybody angry. [21:44.720 --> 21:46.720] That's very understandable. [21:47.720 --> 22:05.720] Then again, I do feel like autopsy and toxicology results might tell us some more, because what we understand is that one of the men was found on, I think a patio chair on the patio and the other two were more in the backyard. [22:05.720 --> 22:23.720] One thing that people may not realize is that hypothermia can happen at temperatures that are not just so in the American system, the Fahrenheit system, 32 degrees is the temperature at which water freezes. [22:23.720 --> 22:32.720] I've seen reports that the temperatures of January 7th that night did not drop below 32. In fact, they were around 33. [22:32.720 --> 22:44.720] I also looked it up on the weather underground, which has like a historical calendar of like different airports and the temperatures there. And they indicated that that night had a low of 29. [22:44.720 --> 22:52.720] So I don't, but I'm seeing more media reports, say the 33 numbers, so just take that, take that what you will. It was not snowing, it was cloudy. [22:53.720 --> 23:11.720] But you can get hypothermia at higher temperatures. It has more to do with what is happening with the core temperature of your body than, so if you're in water, water takes the heat out of your body quicker for, you know, that's a stupid unscientific way of putting it. [23:11.720 --> 23:18.720] But that's why people often, they might get hypothermia in water more quickly because that's what's happening, sapping the heat from your body. [23:19.720 --> 23:26.720] Another thing that's a really bad factor when it comes to hypothermia is drinking alcohol, and there's a reason for that. [23:26.720 --> 23:36.720] When I used to drink, if it was cold out, I wouldn't feel that cold because essentially the alcohol is almost, it's drawing your blood to your skin. [23:36.720 --> 23:42.720] It makes you feel warm, but even though you feel warm, the temperature of your body is dropping. [23:43.720 --> 23:55.720] So it has the effect of you burning heat off more quickly from your body when you're outside and you're drinking, and you don't feel cold, so you're like, I'm fine, this is great. [23:57.720 --> 24:05.720] Another thing about hypothermia is that you, as it goes on, as it gets worse, you become increasingly disoriented. [24:06.720 --> 24:09.720] You might become aggressive, but oftentimes you might just become confused. [24:10.720 --> 24:19.720] There are all kinds of stories about people dealing with hypothermia who are like taking off their clothes, even though like that doesn't make any sense or fighting with one another. [24:20.720 --> 24:26.720] I'm not saying that happened here. I'm just saying that it has an effect on your brain and your ability to deal with a dangerous situation. [24:27.720 --> 24:33.720] So things I still have questions about are, what do the toxicology reports say? [24:34.720 --> 24:44.720] There's been a lot of speculation that I imagine is hurtful for these families that, oh, they must have been on drugs, or oh, they must have been totally drunk. [24:44.720 --> 24:53.720] I don't know what that's going to say. I just think it would be good to have that information, and I'm not going to get into speculation about they must have been on drugs or they must have been blackout drunk. [24:54.720 --> 25:01.720] I think you have to be open to different possibilities, but I don't think it's like, we're going to find out either way, I imagine. [25:02.720 --> 25:08.720] Would hypothermia have affected all three men in roughly the same way at the same time? [25:09.720 --> 25:18.720] Is a lay person, I could imagine like one person having hypothermic issues, but then you would think the other two would deal with it. [25:19.720 --> 25:20.720] Yes. That's a good question. [25:21.720 --> 25:27.720] I don't know. Maybe that's one thing that doesn't make sense about this. [25:28.720 --> 25:37.720] But here's another question. If Jordan Willis, if what people are basically spreading rumors on the internet about, if he killed them, how? [25:38.720 --> 25:41.720] How does one guy overpower the remaining three? [25:42.720 --> 26:00.720] The way that I could see this turning into a homicide is if he provided them with drugs that basically maybe not cause an overdose, but cause their deaths. [26:01.720 --> 26:12.720] But then I think you are more in the territory of something that was not necessarily like an intentional first degree murder and maybe something else. [26:13.720 --> 26:15.720] Those toxicology reports are going to be very important. [26:16.720 --> 26:22.720] One thing also, if they, one thing I was thinking of, well, what if they had a fight and he locked them all outside? [26:23.720 --> 26:32.720] But in that case, I would want to know, is there any damage to the back of the house or the fence? Any signs that they were trying to get out? [26:33.720 --> 26:37.720] Or yelling for help or something like that? That doesn't make any sense either. [26:38.720 --> 26:51.720] Would they have been able to? I know that somebody who knew one of the deceased gentlemen had to break into the property to discover the body. [26:52.720 --> 26:53.720] So that suggests there's like a big fence around. [26:54.720 --> 26:57.720] It's a big fence. It's a big privacy fence, big wooden privacy fence. [26:58.720 --> 27:03.720] But fences are designed to be locked from the inside to keep other people out. [27:04.720 --> 27:07.720] They're not designed to keep people in. [27:08.720 --> 27:22.720] So I would think if my friend locked me out of his house and I was getting cold and I had my car keys in my pocket and my cars parked on the street, why don't I just open up the gate and walk to my car and go home? [27:23.720 --> 27:28.720] Right. Their cars are all there or for some reason their keys are still in the house, which doesn't make any sense. [27:29.720 --> 27:35.720] You would think like if you were in a dangerous situation, you'd leave, ring on other people's doorbells and get help. [27:36.720 --> 27:46.720] I don't know the answer to this. Maybe you don't either. But did the three men have phones with them? Because typically these days, most people don't go anywhere without their phone. [27:47.720 --> 27:50.720] That's an excellent question. And I don't know. [27:50.720 --> 28:00.720] I will say that Willis's account, that's concerning. But what's the difference? [28:01.720 --> 28:04.720] I think he says he saw everyone at like 2 a.m. [28:05.720 --> 28:17.720] The man's lawyer, John Picerno, said, first of all, it's asserted he's innocent. He had nothing to do with their deaths and said that he said goodnight to all of his friends at 2 a.m. [28:17.720 --> 28:26.720] I think there's been some wondering about whether he is referring to all three of the men who died or all four people who were present and what's going on there. [28:27.720 --> 28:31.720] So I think some people have said that that's a discrepancy. I don't know. [28:32.720 --> 28:52.720] One other notable thing that kind of seems important to state is that as of today, January 31st, 2024, Christina Coulter of Fox News published a story noting that Jordan Willis has just checked into rehab [28:53.720 --> 28:59.720] and has said that this was a wake up call for him and he is dealing with an addiction. [29:00.720 --> 29:07.720] You know, I think when people are indicating that, like, it must be like a first degree homicide that was some sort of plot to kill these men. [29:08.720 --> 29:20.720] That seems unlikely to me, but it also seems possible that there could be some, I don't know, wrongful death suit here or charges that reflect the fact that these men died. [29:21.720 --> 29:26.720] And there was culpability for that, even if it wasn't murder. Does that make sense? [29:27.720 --> 29:36.720] I don't know what's going to happen. My heart goes out to these families. One of their brothers, I forget which one, but one of their brothers made a statement to the press indicating, like, [29:37.720 --> 29:44.720] we're not even saying that it's a murder. We just want the police to investigate it like it is foul play so that that can be like the strongest investigation possible. [29:45.720 --> 29:53.720] I think that's reasonable. I think when there's questions about what's happening, I think it's better for police to not necessarily comment immediately and say no foul play. [29:54.720 --> 30:04.720] I think it's better to just, like, look into it as if it could be being respectful, not throwing Jordan Willis to the wolves or doing what they did to Denise Huskins or Aaron Quinn. [30:05.720 --> 30:13.720] Not saying he must be it and grilling him. Just looking at it, following the facts and then coming out with here's what we think happened. [30:14.720 --> 30:24.720] It's one of those things where it's like a murder doesn't really fit, but frankly, the story doesn't add up. And is that because there were drugs involved or alcohol involved? [30:25.720 --> 30:31.720] Could that be an explanation for some of those discrepancies? Maybe. The rehab thing makes me think that maybe. [30:32.720 --> 30:37.720] Yeah, that's that's intriguing. What do you think? Do you think it sounds like a murder? Do you have a different opinion than me? [30:38.720 --> 30:50.720] Well, the fact of the matter is basically everything I know about the case, I've just learned in the last 10 minutes. So I'm twisting it for you. I'm manipulating your thoughts as usual. [30:51.720 --> 31:08.720] My instinct is the people who know most about the case are the investigators law enforcement, and if they have not yet seen any evidence that it is a homicide, I would take that seriously. Perhaps their opinion will change after toxicology reports. Who knows? [31:09.720 --> 31:16.720] But I do certainly feel that the families are entitled to answers and there's some pretty big questions here that need to be answered. Agreed. [31:17.720 --> 31:29.720] Now, for our last case, we're going to go to one that you may or may not have heard of. You probably heard of it. I was being sarcastic. That's in South Carolina. This is, of course, the Murdoch murders. [31:30.720 --> 31:39.720] Alec Murdoch. There was recently a hearing to dig into whether or not there was jury tampering in this case. That's great. [31:40.720 --> 31:51.720] I want to say a little bit of a preamble before we get into the facts of this. A lot of people talk about Delphi being chaotic and messy, and that is true. Those people are correct. It is. [31:52.720 --> 32:01.720] And it's not. It's the legal wranglings. It's the behind the scenes social media nonsense. It's everything. But I think I think Murdoch actually. [32:02.720 --> 32:19.720] Is the same. There's a very strong, similar vibe there when you look at some of the behind the scenes nonsense and the fact that Rebecca Hill, the court clerk at the center of this controversy was basically doing all this while writing a self published book. [32:20.720 --> 32:35.720] It just reminds me so much of Delphi. You have you have drama over discords. You have leaks showing that people were, you know, like actively people who are representing themselves as media figures actively trying to help one side and not the other. [32:36.720 --> 32:56.720] Everything is going to be this in true crime going forward. I am. I am so not hopeful about the future of this space because bad actors who act ridiculous are always rewarded. [32:57.720 --> 33:11.720] And what is going to happen going forward is that it's going to affect people's lives in a very concrete way, and it's going to be really bad because everything's going to splinter into every case is going to have its own community of. [33:12.720 --> 33:29.720] People who are bad actors who are in the end, that can mean people who are just lay people, but also like people in the media, people who are like touting themselves as responsible commentators when they're not when they're heavily invested in one side, whether that's a prosecution or defense or whatever. [33:30.720 --> 33:44.720] Whatever, whatever, whatever other sides pop up, it's going to be people seeking clout, attention, money, fame, careers, or just dealing with their sense of anger and inadequacy on the Internet. [33:45.720 --> 33:54.720] It's going to be bad. We're going to have just crazy, crazy discords and Reddit and Twitter fights on every high profile case. [33:55.720 --> 34:05.720] And that is just something that everybody should expect going forward. And if it doesn't happen in the case that you're following, then just pray that it doesn't start because it's not good. [34:06.720 --> 34:08.720] Thumbs down for me. What do you think? [34:09.720 --> 34:17.720] Yeah, I think it's going to become more and more common. And what we've seen in Delphi, we're going to see in other cases, other cases that get a lot of attention. [34:18.720 --> 34:29.720] I think Murdoch, I followed the case in the in the traditional media. I followed the case with, you know, your traditional news sources, TV outlets, national stuff. [34:30.720 --> 34:45.720] So I didn't realize the extent of some of the behind the scenes nonsense, but this incident actually gives us a glimpse into some of that. So that's why I bring it up because it's like this woman was willing to risk it all for a self published book. [34:46.720 --> 35:00.720] Tell us about it. So talking about books and stuff, I just want to make the quick point that people have the idea that if someone publishes a book, they're going to make a million dollars or something. [35:01.720 --> 35:03.720] Those people know nothing about publishing. [35:03.720 --> 35:17.720] Especially now in the mid 21st century, that is no longer the case. Whatever amount of money you think people are making on books, it's much less. Obviously, there are exceptions. [35:18.720 --> 35:26.720] Stephen King's and stuff, they're always going to do fine. But other writers don't get anywhere near that kind of thing. We were talking about Taylor Swift earlier. [35:27.720 --> 35:35.720] Taylor Swift is able to sell a lot of physical media. That's unusual. That doesn't mean that all musicians are able to do that. [35:36.720 --> 35:45.720] That's a really good point. Yeah, sometimes people, frankly, the same thing that the same thing goes for a lot of like, do it yourself true crime media like podcasting does not make as much money as you think it does. [35:46.720 --> 36:00.720] You know, you tubing makes even less. There's a lot of things that it may be people at the top of the game are making millions. But oftentimes, that's through consolidating and founding networks where they get to bring in other shows that they can make a buck off of. [36:01.720 --> 36:13.720] So people definitely overthink. But still, I think there's I think in true crime, there's motivations that are not monetary. Maybe monetary is an element of it. But you might want to have a different career that you can launch. [36:14.720 --> 36:22.720] You might want to have attention that you didn't get growing up. You might want to have all sorts of things or just have your opinion heard, which can be good or or bad. [36:23.720 --> 36:30.720] So in this case, actually, we know how much money she made off of this book. So we can talk about that. I'll be interested. We know the figures. [36:31.720 --> 36:41.720] So, Alec Murdoch is, of course, the the former heir of the prominent legal dynasty in South Carolina's low country. [36:42.720 --> 36:51.720] He was arrested for murdering his wife, Margaret and their 22 year old younger son, Paul. This has been an entire saga. [36:52.720 --> 37:16.720] So much attention has been paid to this case because it sounds like something out of a Southern Gothic epic, you know, a respected law family that had effectively served as that area's equivalent of prosecutors for generations comes to ruin because Alec Murdoch had a severe drug addiction and was also stealing from clients. [37:17.720 --> 37:25.720] His life was unraveling. And eventually, you know, his you know, his family was under scrutiny because Paul was involved in a horrific boat crash that killed a young girl. [37:26.720 --> 37:41.720] So it all it all culminates in him committing murder and then faking an incident where somebody tried to kill him. He's he was convicted. I thought that the case was very much. [37:42.720 --> 37:53.720] There was no smoking gun, so to speak. No, there was not like this is not like a DNA case, but it was a very strong case in the way it was pieced together by the prosecution. [37:54.720 --> 38:09.720] And personally, I felt that the jury made the correct call on this. So that's just my bias. I want to announce that I felt that they were right in convicting him. Did you feel the same? [38:10.720 --> 38:22.720] I did. And back at the time of the verdict, we had a great defense attorney on who went through it all with us. And I really appreciated how he explained the case and laid it all out. [38:22.720 --> 38:32.720] Love him. Also, we were in the middle of a Patreon live during that. I remember we were like finding like, OK, any other questions? And then one of our commentators was like. [38:33.720 --> 38:38.720] The murder verdict just dropped and we're all like, OK, you know, log off immediately. We need to go deal with that. [38:39.720 --> 38:51.720] So. Unfortunately, despite this kind of conclusion, which you would have hoped maybe marked an ending of it, aside from appeals and things like that. [38:53.720 --> 39:08.720] It came out that court clerk Rebecca Hill, an elected official within this county, had seemingly been in extensive communication with the jurors in the case. [39:09.720 --> 39:16.720] Had essentially kind of. For lack of a better term, cozied up to them. Was having conversations with them alone. [39:17.720 --> 39:21.720] And was making statements to them to indicate that. [39:22.720 --> 39:28.720] They should be suspicious of Alec Murdoch. Why is that a problem? Why can't she just say her opinion? [39:29.720 --> 39:39.720] See, the jurors are the ultimate deciders of what the facts are. They get to decide if they believe this witness's story or that witness's story. [39:40.720 --> 39:53.720] And they get to decide what happened. And so for the sake of fairness, it is very important that every bit of information they use to come to their conclusion about what happened. [39:53.720 --> 40:10.720] It's very important that every bit of that information be presented in court. And the reason for that is you want to be fair and you want to give the defense attorneys an opportunity to respond to anything that might be affecting their thinking. [40:11.720 --> 40:25.720] So if you have someone who's working for the court and so has at least a patina of authority going around and telling jurors you shouldn't believe this person, they might be swayed by that. [40:26.720 --> 40:36.720] And the defense is not getting the opportunity to say, hey, this person isn't credible or is basing her opinion on this or this. So it goes to fairness. [40:37.720 --> 40:46.720] Yeah. So if you have people going and injecting their own opinions and seemingly working to stemically influence the jury, that's a huge problem. [40:47.720 --> 41:05.720] That's a disaster. It's not the prosecution's fault that she did this, but it hurts them ultimately. And what's interesting is that one of the jurors known as Jersey admitted that these conversations influenced her. [41:06.720 --> 41:14.720] Her vote, her verdict at the end influenced her to be to be on the side of guilty. She also indicated that the other jurors kind of pushed her into it. [41:15.720 --> 41:25.720] But all 11 of the 12 of the remaining jurors, but the other 11 actually said that the conversations with Rebecca Hill did not matter to them. [41:26.720 --> 41:41.720] And what we had here was a hearing where Judge Jean Toll went through and spoke with every juror. The defense was not allowed to cross-examine, but she went through and was asking them, did this influence you? [41:42.720 --> 41:59.720] It got even weirder because Jersey was first. And then when a bailiff informed the judge that the other jurors were watching her testimony in the back room where they were waiting to go on. [42:00.720 --> 42:05.720] So then she had asked them, did seeing her testify influence you? It's very messy. [42:05.720 --> 42:26.720] It's very messy. This is a mess. So we mentioned that Rebecca Hill was writing a self-published book on the matter. That's been yanked from circulation because there was a plagiarism finding that it plagiarized a BBC article. [42:27.720 --> 42:32.720] But let's get to the money. You said that we know how much money she made from this. [42:32.720 --> 42:44.720] So keep in mind that this would have to be split with a co-author. So she gets half of this. But she said she made $100,000. And so she would have gotten 50 minus taxes. [42:45.720 --> 42:58.720] I mean, I wouldn't mind having $50,000 extra. That seems way more than I would have thought for a self-published book. That's way more than I would have thought. [42:59.720 --> 43:11.720] I don't know what the price point was, but now people are like, just get back to the murder, but I'm just nerding out over this. That seems pretty successful to me for a self-published book. [43:12.720 --> 43:16.720] Then again, it was a big case and she was able to trade upon her own personal connection to it. [43:17.720 --> 43:22.720] So $50,000, that's probably what, a year's salary? [43:23.720 --> 43:29.720] Yeah, that's a pretty good sale. I was surprised that it was that high because... [43:30.720 --> 43:31.720] I'm shocked. [43:31.720 --> 43:36.720] We're more aware of cases where it's not that high, even if the book does okay. [43:37.720 --> 43:45.720] So Judge Toll actually said that Hill fell for the siren call of celebrity. [43:46.720 --> 43:52.720] But ultimately, she ruled that she doesn't believe this should elicit a new trial. [43:53.720 --> 43:54.720] Why not? [43:54.720 --> 44:01.720] She couched Hill's comments as, quote, some fleeting and foolish comments by a publicity-seeking clerk of the court. [44:02.720 --> 44:13.720] And felt that they didn't prove that it ultimately had a deciding impact on this. [44:14.720 --> 44:20.720] One especially disturbing element of this is that Rhonda McElveen, who is... [44:21.720 --> 44:27.720] Rhonda McElveen, who is the court clerk of Barnwell County, she was brought into assist Hill when all this was going on. [44:28.720 --> 44:32.720] Because it was so chaotic, it really tied up their courthouse, so she's coming in. [44:33.720 --> 44:37.720] She indicated that Hill made comments to her, like, a book would sell better if there was a guilty verdict. [44:38.720 --> 44:45.720] So that's not just saying she wants to trade in on her personal insertion into the case, but she wants to trade on a specific outcome. [44:46.720 --> 44:56.720] And she's motivated to influence people in that direction by saying things like, you need to watch him or watch his body language or don't fall for it, that kind of stuff to the jurors. [44:57.720 --> 44:58.720] Oh, God. [45:00.720 --> 45:01.720] This is so bad. [45:02.720 --> 45:07.720] And yeah, there's not going to be seemingly it's not going to go anywhere. [45:08.720 --> 45:15.720] I mean, I think they'll appeal it, but I almost would have felt that they would have had to do a retrial. [45:16.720 --> 45:17.720] Because of the one juror. [45:18.720 --> 45:19.720] Yeah. [45:22.720 --> 45:23.720] And he's got to be unanimous. [45:23.720 --> 45:33.720] If all you need is one juror, and there was one juror, but then they got influenced by someone who was doing this, then it's surprising to me that they didn't ask for one. [45:34.720 --> 45:36.720] I imagine it's a relief for a lot of the people at the center of it. [45:37.720 --> 45:38.720] So I'm not saying that that's what I wanted. [45:39.720 --> 45:40.720] I'm just surprised that they didn't do it. [45:41.720 --> 45:43.720] And I'm just shocked the clerk did this. [45:44.720 --> 45:52.720] Yeah, this is a woman who's represented, you know, supposed to represent her community and has a role and should presumably understand the leads. [45:53.720 --> 45:55.720] I mean, the legal system and how it works in fairness. [45:56.720 --> 46:13.720] And it seems like whether it was through ignorance or a lack of care just ran roughshod over this, you know, for I mean, for I mean, I guess, you know, I guess she made money from it. [46:14.720 --> 46:15.720] So I don't know. [46:16.720 --> 46:17.720] It's shocking to me. [46:17.720 --> 46:27.720] I think like people, I think most people who work in this space are dedicated public servants and they're not looking for that. [46:28.720 --> 46:30.720] They're not going to make as much money as they would in other sectors. [46:31.720 --> 46:32.720] So there's something motivating them. [46:33.720 --> 46:38.720] But you do get people who are motivated for the wrong reasons, and it's just upsetting to see. [46:39.720 --> 46:51.720] Now, before we wrap up, you know, speaking of books and also speaking of Patreon, I wondered if there was anything related to those subjects that you might want to mention. [46:52.720 --> 46:53.720] I'm writing a tell all about Kevin. [46:54.720 --> 46:55.720] No, I'm just kidding. [46:56.720 --> 46:57.720] What? [46:58.720 --> 46:59.720] Good night, folks. [47:00.720 --> 47:02.720] No, no, there was something I thought you might want to mention. [47:02.720 --> 47:14.720] We so we have a Patreon and it's it's the level with the most benefits is five dollars a month. [47:15.720 --> 47:24.720] You get two additional episodes essentially that are lives of Kevin and I chatting about stuff and answering anything and being more unhinged than we are. [47:25.720 --> 47:30.720] Anybody can come on and ask us questions and we answer questions the best of our ability. [47:31.720 --> 47:34.720] And you also get all the all our episodes completely ad free. [47:35.720 --> 47:37.720] So there's those the benefits. [47:38.720 --> 47:39.720] We're adding a new benefit to that for all our patrons. [47:40.720 --> 47:43.720] And if this is something that would be interesting to you, maybe you can consider joining. [47:44.720 --> 47:45.720] And again, you get all those other benefits. [47:46.720 --> 47:48.720] We're not jacking up the rates. It's all just five dollars a month. [47:49.720 --> 47:52.720] We're going to add an additional episode that is Patreon exclusive. [47:53.720 --> 47:55.720] This is going to essentially be our book club. [47:56.720 --> 47:59.720] Going to be kind of a one sided dictatorship of a book club. [48:00.720 --> 48:01.720] We're going to sit in the circle and talk about books. [48:02.720 --> 48:07.720] But every month we'll be announcing a book that we're going to read and discuss. [48:08.720 --> 48:13.720] And, you know, if you want to read along and send us your feedback and thoughts, we can incorporate that into those recordings. [48:14.720 --> 48:19.720] But we're going to be calling it the red sheet and that it's not read like the color. [48:20.720 --> 48:23.720] It's r e a d s h e e t. [48:26.720 --> 48:27.720] Why are you looking at me like that, Kevin? [48:28.720 --> 48:29.720] You're spelling sheet. [48:30.720 --> 48:33.720] Well, I once I got started, I couldn't stop. [48:34.720 --> 48:36.720] Yes, it's like spreadsheet, but it's like what we read. [48:37.720 --> 48:40.720] Get it. Well, so basically everyone says [48:42.720 --> 48:49.720] Adi is going to talk about a book she's read that's somehow related to crime. [48:50.720 --> 48:52.720] I'm going to my reading is all over the place. [48:53.720 --> 48:54.720] Kevin doesn't know how to read. [48:55.720 --> 49:00.720] So I'll chime in when I can and we'll talk about it and if people have things there. [49:01.720 --> 49:02.720] Yeah, it sounds like it could be fun. [49:03.720 --> 49:04.720] I'm glad you think so. [49:07.720 --> 49:09.720] Kevin's not too sure about this, folks, but we're going to try it. [49:10.720 --> 49:11.720] It'll be fun. [49:12.720 --> 49:13.720] I think you are sure of it. [49:14.720 --> 49:15.720] Yeah, I think it'll be fun. [49:16.720 --> 49:18.720] And we got into true crime through books. [49:19.720 --> 49:22.720] So I think books mean a lot to us. [49:23.720 --> 49:31.720] I think books tend to be better than most other mediums in terms of conveying the depth and. [49:32.720 --> 49:34.720] Anya showing her 20th century bias here. [49:35.720 --> 49:38.720] A lot of podcasts are super biased and ridiculous. [49:39.720 --> 49:47.720] A lot of docuseries flatten out facts and use almost fictional conventional storytelling techniques in order to make things, quote unquote, exciting. [49:47.720 --> 49:54.720] A book tends to be, in my view, a very good way of conveying the humanity at the heart of a crime case. [49:55.720 --> 49:56.720] Not that they all do that. [49:56.720 --> 49:58.720] There's some real bad books out there. [49:58.720 --> 49:59.720] I'm not saying that. [49:59.720 --> 50:05.720] I'm just I tend to think of it as the superior conveyance of that information. [50:06.720 --> 50:07.720] So 20th century bias. [50:07.720 --> 50:08.720] I'm a 20th century. [50:08.720 --> 50:10.720] Yeah, I'm wearing my monocle right now. [50:10.720 --> 50:13.720] I'm smoking a pipe. [50:14.720 --> 50:16.720] And people think you're kidding me or not. [50:17.720 --> 50:18.720] I'm I'm very much kidding. [50:18.720 --> 50:19.720] I don't smoke. [50:20.720 --> 50:21.720] But you do wear a monocle. [50:25.720 --> 50:27.720] Whenever she's surprised, it just pops right out. [50:31.720 --> 50:37.720] OK, but like people have seen you and I think people would imagine you to be more of the monocle wearer, don't you think? [50:38.720 --> 50:39.720] That's what I've been told. [50:40.720 --> 50:46.720] Didn't one one person you knew once tell you that you look like the kind of guy who would carry a pocket watch? [50:46.720 --> 50:49.720] And then I stopped talking to that person altogether. [50:51.720 --> 50:54.720] That person is no longer in my life, but if she's out there listening, I wish her well. [50:56.720 --> 50:59.720] Yeah, so I know it's I love podcasting. [50:59.720 --> 51:02.720] It's a very accessible medium and I think it's great. [51:03.720 --> 51:08.720] And I think all the different media have different strengths, but they also have different weaknesses. [51:08.720 --> 51:11.720] And to me, when I really want to get into something, I want to book. [51:12.720 --> 51:16.720] So I'm not sure when the next the first episode will be released on Patreon. [51:16.720 --> 51:19.720] Do you know what the first book to be covered is? [51:20.720 --> 51:21.720] Yes, I do. [51:21.720 --> 51:24.720] And I'm really hyped about it because I really thought this was so good. [51:25.720 --> 51:27.720] It's one of the best ones I've read in a while. [51:29.720 --> 51:32.720] It is called the first one we're going to be doing. [51:32.720 --> 51:43.720] Is in the wake of the butcher, Cleveland's torso murders by James Jessen Badal. [51:43.720 --> 51:49.720] And this is about the Cleveland torso murders, also known as the butcher of Kingsbury Run. [51:49.720 --> 51:53.720] It is an unsolved serial killing case out of Cleveland from the 30s. [51:53.720 --> 51:54.720] It's got everything. [51:54.720 --> 51:59.720] It's got Elliott Ness making bad decisions about people on the margins. [51:59.720 --> 52:01.720] It's got the Great Depression. [52:02.720 --> 52:04.720] It's got media fanfare. [52:04.720 --> 52:10.720] It's got some pretty horrific stuff that happened to somebody who was almost certainly innocent. [52:10.720 --> 52:12.720] And it's never been solved. [52:12.720 --> 52:22.720] So it's very my only caveat about this book is that if you read it, the copy that I had had crime scene pictures and it's pretty gruesome. [52:22.720 --> 52:25.720] So just keep that in mind as you're reading it. [52:27.720 --> 52:28.720] But it was really good. [52:29.720 --> 52:32.720] And so that's when I think the one we'll start on. [52:32.720 --> 52:37.720] And again, that's a new perk we're adding to the five dollar level of our Patreon. [52:37.720 --> 52:40.720] So if that's something you're interested in, consider joining. [52:40.720 --> 52:41.720] Maybe just join it for a month. [52:41.720 --> 52:42.720] Try it out. [52:42.720 --> 52:44.720] We won't be offended if you leave. [52:44.720 --> 52:46.720] These are these are tight times economically. [52:46.720 --> 52:50.720] So it's it's not something you have to do, but it just could be a little bit fun. [52:50.720 --> 52:52.720] And and you also get all those other things. [52:52.720 --> 52:54.720] You don't have to listen to our ads anymore. [52:54.720 --> 52:55.720] And you also don't have to. [52:55.720 --> 53:00.720] And you also get those lives that you can ask us anything. [53:00.720 --> 53:01.720] Ask us anything. [53:01.720 --> 53:05.720] You can attend them, but you can also rewatch them later on because we post them for you. [53:05.720 --> 53:07.720] So there's a couple of different benefits. [53:07.720 --> 53:13.720] We're just trying to make it as valuable as possible for our patrons because they're really nice to support us like that. [53:13.720 --> 53:16.720] And we want to make sure that they're getting their money's worth as much as possible. [53:18.720 --> 53:23.720] But obviously, even if you're not a patron, for whatever reason, we really appreciate you listening. [53:23.720 --> 53:24.720] Yeah, it means a lot to us. [53:24.720 --> 53:27.720] We really enjoy our listeners. [53:27.720 --> 53:28.720] We think they're a great group. [53:28.720 --> 53:29.720] We love you. [53:29.720 --> 53:30.720] They are a great group. [53:30.720 --> 53:31.720] I'm obsessed with them. [53:31.720 --> 53:34.720] We always get such great comments and just thank you. [53:34.720 --> 53:35.720] Thank you for taking the time. [53:35.720 --> 53:43.720] The fact that you invite us into your life in this way and just kind of spend your time with us is it means a lot. [53:43.720 --> 53:45.720] And we will chat again soon. [53:45.720 --> 53:46.720] Yes. [53:47.720 --> 53:50.720] Thanks so much for listening to the murder sheet. [53:50.720 --> 53:58.720] If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us at murdersheet at gmail.com. [53:59.720 --> 54:06.720] If you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities. [54:08.720 --> 54:17.720] If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com slash murder sheet. [54:18.720 --> 54:27.720] If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www.buymeacoffee.com slash murder sheet. [54:28.720 --> 54:30.720] We very much appreciate any support. [54:31.720 --> 54:40.720] Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the murder sheet and who you can find on the web at KevinTG.com. [54:41.720 --> 54:48.720] If you're looking to talk with other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the murder sheet discussion group on Facebook. [54:49.720 --> 54:54.720] We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. [54:55.720 --> 55:01.720] We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. [55:02.720 --> 55:03.720] Thanks again for listening. Transcription results written to '/home/forge/transcribe3.sonicengage.com/releases/20240204160217' directory