The Cheat Sheet: Records and Recriminations

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[00:02:22] [SPEAKER_00] I have two pieces coming in. The 100% European linen relaxed short-sleeved shirt in martini olive. I'm branching out and trying new things, which means button-downs with short sleeves. What a concept. It's casual but put-together and perfectly lightweight for the sticky summer months. I also got new pants. The Comfort Stretch Traveler 5 Pocket Pants Athletic Tapered in Dark Charcoal. They look professional and put-together with a great sharp fit and a nice stretch.

[00:02:52] [SPEAKER_03] Elevate your summer wardrobe. Go to quince.com slash msheet for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada, too. That's quince.com slash msheet for free shipping and 365-day returns. quince.com slash msheet. I'm Anya, and today on the cheat sheet, we're going to be going as far away as the United Kingdom.

[00:03:16] [SPEAKER_03] And as close by as Georgia, Alabama, and I think you're going to California, Kevin?

[00:03:23] [SPEAKER_00] I think so.

[00:03:24] [SPEAKER_03] All right. Content warning. This episode contains discussion of violence and murder as well as the murder of children.

[00:03:35] [SPEAKER_00] So we have premium where we do extra episodes. It's a lot of fun. Come join us. And this is-

[00:03:42] [SPEAKER_02] How do they join you?

[00:03:43] [SPEAKER_00] Uh, just by being people of goodwill, good cheer. How do they join us? You tell us.

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[00:04:12] [SPEAKER_00] See, I was trying to make it like a puzzle to make it for people would have to figure it out. And the reward is you get to join us. Wow. Because I think our listeners like a challenge. They're sleuths. So, and I think I mentioned this on last week's episode. For some reason, here in the far-off past of June 18th, 2026, we thought, well, let's decide. Let's do three cheat sheets in a row. Let's just do three in a row. This is the second of those. Do you feel winded?

[00:04:42] [SPEAKER_00] Do you need to do any sprint?

[00:04:44] [SPEAKER_02] Do you need to go get any wind?

[00:04:46] [SPEAKER_00] Do you feel like you're in fighting shape? Do you feel like you're in the cheat sheet frame of mind? The people have come to expect from you.

[00:04:56] [SPEAKER_03] Of course.

[00:04:57] [SPEAKER_00] What's emotion in limity?

[00:05:00] [SPEAKER_03] I mean, it's basically a party in a case asking a judge to prevent a specific topic from being brought up.

[00:05:09] [SPEAKER_00] What's the cane train?

[00:05:10] [SPEAKER_03] I don't know.

[00:05:12] [SPEAKER_00] Okay. You're as sharp as a tack. Are we ready?

[00:05:16] [SPEAKER_03] Let's do it. My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist.

[00:05:20] [SPEAKER_00] And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney. And this is The Murder Sheet. We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases. We're The Murder Sheet.

[00:05:33] [SPEAKER_03] And this is The Cheat Sheet. Records and recriminations.

[00:06:22] [SPEAKER_00] I think we're going to begin by going to the great state of Alabama. And remind me, Anya, what were you telling me right before we started recording about what happened when Alabama dared to challenge IU in football? What happened then? Was it something, was it kind of ambiguous? What happened?

[00:06:41] [SPEAKER_02] You're trying to get us into a beef with Brett. We won.

[00:06:45] [SPEAKER_03] We dominated them.

[00:06:46] [SPEAKER_00] Was it a close contest? No.

[00:06:49] [SPEAKER_03] What are you doing?

[00:06:50] [SPEAKER_00] Well, I'm trying to, you love IU football. I'm trying to give you a chance to shine.

[00:06:56] [SPEAKER_03] I don't want to make people feel bad for losing, but I mean, yeah, we dominated it. But, you know, I mean, I guess you're supposed to taunt others in the sports world. But I don't know. That feels unsporting.

[00:07:09] [SPEAKER_00] So this is a no taunt zone.

[00:07:12] [SPEAKER_03] I think the Hoosiers must be respectable gentlemen and women.

[00:07:18] [SPEAKER_00] So no taunting. We're just all very...

[00:07:20] [SPEAKER_03] We don't need to gloat. We can let our actions speak for themselves.

[00:07:25] [SPEAKER_00] So let's take no pleasure from our win.

[00:07:28] [SPEAKER_02] It's not that. You can take pleasure from it. But I just, you know, kick Alabama while it's down. You know, it seems unsporting.

[00:07:35] [SPEAKER_00] So you want to like take Alabama to like a restaurant, buy it dinner, pat it on the back, build it back up so it will crush us.

[00:07:44] [SPEAKER_03] No, I don't want it to crush us. I want to win. I'm just saying. You randomly bringing up this football game that happened months ago is hilarious to me. But it's also, you know, I don't... There's people in Alabama listening right now and I want to be sensitive to their feelings.

[00:07:59] [SPEAKER_00] So you're just a friend to every man.

[00:08:03] [SPEAKER_02] As we've said, I'm friends to... I'm friend to all the states, unlike you.

[00:08:08] [SPEAKER_03] You have states that are your enemies.

[00:08:11] [SPEAKER_00] I love 49 of our states.

[00:08:14] [SPEAKER_03] No, I don't even think that's true.

[00:08:17] [SPEAKER_00] So my source for this is Rocket City Now.

[00:08:21] [SPEAKER_02] That's a great name.

[00:08:22] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. Why don't we have a cool name like that?

[00:08:24] [SPEAKER_02] Rocket City Now. That sounds like a Nickelodeon show.

[00:08:28] [SPEAKER_00] We need a cooler name, don't we?

[00:08:31] [SPEAKER_02] No. I think our name is as cool as we are.

[00:08:36] [SPEAKER_00] So it's pretty cool.

[00:08:38] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah.

[00:08:39] [SPEAKER_00] So this guy, this chiropractor in Alabama, he has $1.3 million in life insurance on his wife. Which I guess that in and of itself isn't suspicious. But then he tells her, oh, I want you to strengthen your immune system. He says this to his wife, Hannah Mann. And here's how you do it.

[00:09:09] [SPEAKER_00] Here's some pills. Take these pills. And they are going to strengthen your immune system. And the pills were lead pills.

[00:09:18] [SPEAKER_01] Oh, my goodness.

[00:09:19] [SPEAKER_00] Which those don't strengthen your immune system. They basically make you sick and kill you. And so this is discovered when there are x-rays taken of Ms. Mann. Ms. Mann recovered. They take x-rays of her and they find a foreign substance, lead, in her body. And so he is charged with attempted murder. He was convicted. And that verdict was recently upheld.

[00:09:48] [SPEAKER_00] And what really jumped out at me was the prosecutor in the case said, quote, this verdict sends a strong message to acts of domestic violence, especially those committed in secret and under the guise of trust will be met with justice. And I think that's an important thing to talk about because we are more aware of the obvious kinds of domestic violence.

[00:10:16] [SPEAKER_00] You hear about things like people being hurt and leaving marks and bruises that you can see. But there is invisible domestic violence or secret domestic violence that people still think they can get away with because the immediate results of that are more hidden.

[00:10:37] [SPEAKER_00] And I just liked this case because it is an important reminder that even when you think you are being clever and you think you're doing your domestic violence in a way that you're not going to get caught, you still get caught. And you're still going to get the justice you deserve for your heinous acts.

[00:10:57] [SPEAKER_03] Well said, Kevin. And I think that is an important thing to note. Things like this are absolutely domestic violence.

[00:11:06] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, he tried to kill her. It's horrifying. And, you know, it was a chiropractor person who should be trying to help people, trying to help them feel better.

[00:11:16] [SPEAKER_03] So, yeah, I don't know. I mean, yeah, it's scary. I'm glad this woman survived this terrible ordeal, though.

[00:11:25] [SPEAKER_00] Yes. That was good news. So, let's move on to California. My source for this is abc7.com. And as I talk about this, Anya, I think it might remind you of a case we covered in the past. This involves a man named Gene Evan Atkins. And, well, I'll read the first sentence of this story.

[00:11:55] [SPEAKER_00] Quote, A man who held two dozen people hostage inside a Silver Lake Trader Joe's store after a police chase, then engaged in a gunfight with police that killed his store employee who was struck by an officer's bullet, was convicted on Tuesday of 40 counts but acquitted of first-degree murder. End quote. That kind of gives you the gist of it.

[00:12:17] [SPEAKER_00] On this day, which was July 21st, 2018, this man, to say the least, made a series of awful and horrifying decisions which resulted in him holding people hostage inside this grocery store.

[00:12:36] [SPEAKER_00] And during the course of that string of events, police try to stop him and some shots are fired. And one of them hits and kills a 27-year-old woman named Melitta or Melly Maricela. I, Maricela Corrado. I apologize if I mispronounce that name, which I almost certainly am.

[00:13:03] [SPEAKER_00] She was an assistant manager at this grocery store. And even though Mr. Atkins did not fire the shot that killed this innocent woman, he was charged with first-degree murder.

[00:13:21] [SPEAKER_03] Good.

[00:13:23] [SPEAKER_00] And there is a doctrine in California, the Provocative Act Doctrine, where if you commit a provocative act which results in someone getting killed, you can be held responsible for that murder. And in this particular case, the jury was reluctant to assign legal blame or responsibility to him for that death because he didn't pull the trigger.

[00:13:50] [SPEAKER_00] And does this remind you of a case we covered?

[00:13:55] [SPEAKER_03] No.

[00:13:56] [SPEAKER_00] The Redline case.

[00:13:57] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah, it doesn't remind me because, I mean, well, I guess they did take a brothel full of hostages. So, yeah, that is pretty fair.

[00:14:04] [SPEAKER_00] That was a case where two robbers took a bunch of hostages. There was a confrontation with police. One of the robbers is killed by police. And this thriving robber was charged with his murder under the felony doctrine rule.

[00:14:20] [SPEAKER_03] I guess what feels different to me and probably colors my view of this to a greater degree is that in that instance, none of the hostages died. The only person died was somebody who deserved it. I mean, like, I'm just being totally blunt. Like, you know, you want to take people hostage and threaten them with guns, and then you die by gunfire. That's on you. In this instance, one of the deaths being a hostage makes me mad.

[00:14:46] [SPEAKER_03] And so I feel like I have less of a kind of like, well, you know, in this case, you know, yeah, you want to kidnap and, you know, arm, rob people and then not let them leave. And then one of them ends up dead. Then I think you deserve everything coming at you. In that case, and it's different because in that case, the courts correctly, in my view,

[00:15:10] [SPEAKER_03] in the red line case noted that police killing a guy who's, you know, shooting at them is not an unlawful killing. It's not a kill. It's not an unlawful killing. So how can that be felony murder if that's a totally justified shoot? In this case, obviously, that's not the case.

[00:15:30] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, I'm a little uncomfortable with it because the provocative act doctrine is you do something that's so provocative or reckless that it triggers a response which kills someone. And the idea of you being able to trigger a response from a trained law enforcement officer that has them killing someone, I don't know, it leaves me feeling a little uncomfortable.

[00:15:56] [SPEAKER_03] How so? What would you rather happen?

[00:16:00] [SPEAKER_00] A law officer who is well-trained shouldn't be triggered or provoked by the actions of someone else to do something which results in an innocent person dying.

[00:16:11] [SPEAKER_03] So you disagree with the law as a whole?

[00:16:14] [SPEAKER_00] I disagree with the application of it in this case, I think. It just leaves me feeling uncomfortable.

[00:16:21] [SPEAKER_03] Okay. Yeah.

[00:16:22] [SPEAKER_00] And the family of the victim did file a suit.

[00:16:26] [SPEAKER_03] I mean, they should, yeah.

[00:16:28] [SPEAKER_00] Against the city and the officer and they got a settlement of just under $10 million.

[00:16:32] [SPEAKER_03] I'm certainly not defending LAPD here or saying that they covered themselves in glory. Obviously, they did not. And it resulted in a death. But at the same time, with this Atkins person, you know, I guess I'm just saying I have no sympathy for him. And I just find it odd. I don't know. I mean, he kidnapped his poor girlfriend, too. I mean, like, just what a, I mean, just a menace to society.

[00:16:58] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. I think there's enough stuff that he did himself that there's no doubt he's going to go away for a long time. And he should. It's just trying to assign criminal responsibility to him for what a police officer did, especially when by selling this lawsuit, there is at least a tacit recognition that, oh, maybe what the police officer did wasn't good.

[00:17:23] [SPEAKER_03] Perhaps. But once you instigate a hostage crisis in a grocery store, don't you bear moral responsibility? You know, if he had let those people leave, she wouldn't be dead.

[00:17:37] [SPEAKER_00] Because perhaps she could have gotten medical assistance?

[00:17:40] [SPEAKER_03] Or just don't take hostages.

[00:17:43] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah.

[00:17:43] [SPEAKER_03] You know, you force people into a situation, you hold them prisoner. You are morally responsible for what happens to them. Now, I think the police bear responsibility, too, if what they were doing did not fulfill their training, if it was risky. And it certainly sounds like that may be the case here. I haven't looked into it to that extent, but it certainly sounds like, you know, that was not good. You shouldn't fire when there's hostages in the way. I mean, that's pretty, you know.

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[00:21:29] [SPEAKER_03] But at the same time, I feel like sometimes this lets criminals off the hook a bit morally. I don't know. That's just my take. I'm going to tell you guys, if I'm ever held hostage in a bank or something and I get shot, I want you to blame the guy who was taking hostages. First and foremost. And then if there's blame to go around, keep going. But definitely don't let that guy off the hook. It's like we treat criminals like children. Like, well, yeah, of course he was going to take hostages. No, no.

[00:21:59] [SPEAKER_03] He traumatized his grandmother. He traumatized his girlfriend. I mean, God bless these poor women. I mean, awful.

[00:22:05] [SPEAKER_00] Obviously not defending this guy. No.

[00:22:07] [SPEAKER_03] I'm just saying I think sometimes juries kind of, I don't know. They don't want to quite, you know, make a hard call.

[00:22:17] [SPEAKER_00] And it sounds like most of the jurors agreed with you. It sounds like they were 10 to 2.

[00:22:21] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. Some people just, you know, I think they lack moral, you know, backbone. And it's like, oh, well, no, things have to be completely spelled out for me. And it's like, I just, I don't think that's what beyond a reasonable doubt means. And I think when you take hostages and you don't let them leave and then one of them gets killed, personally, I would throw the book at that guy.

[00:22:43] [SPEAKER_00] I support giving him a hard sentence for what he did. I think we just have a little bit of a philosophical disagreement.

[00:22:49] [SPEAKER_03] I think we may. But that's okay.

[00:22:51] [SPEAKER_00] I wonder what our dear friends, the listeners think.

[00:22:54] [SPEAKER_03] I'm sure they'll all agree with you because you're a very sensible man. I'm just a very angry young lady.

[00:22:59] [SPEAKER_00] No, you're very, you're refined.

[00:23:02] [SPEAKER_03] No.

[00:23:03] [SPEAKER_00] You like sit, puff on your pipe and have your great philosophical pronouncement.

[00:23:07] [SPEAKER_03] I don't smoke a pipe or anything. There's no pipe.

[00:23:10] [SPEAKER_00] Well, it's a metaphorical pipe. Sounds weird. You often say, Kevin, this is a two pipe problem. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. And you muse.

[00:23:22] [SPEAKER_03] That never, I never mused in my life.

[00:23:24] [SPEAKER_00] Sometimes take out a violin and play as you think.

[00:23:26] [SPEAKER_03] I'm going to literally walk out of this. I'm going to walk. I'm gone.

[00:23:32] [SPEAKER_00] So those are mine. That's what I came up with for this episode.

[00:23:37] [SPEAKER_03] The rare Kevin two punch knockout to start out. And then I'm going to come in and say what I have to say. So my first one is we're going back to the United Kingdom. We went there last week. And another listener from the United Kingdom said, hey, look at this situation.

[00:23:53] [SPEAKER_00] Sounds like you have a soft spot for the United Kingdom.

[00:23:56] [SPEAKER_03] Right. Well, I mean, I love all my listeners all over the world. But I always appreciate people reaching out and saying.

[00:24:01] [SPEAKER_00] Well, people should reach out with ideas for Oklahoma cases because when we were a crime con.

[00:24:06] [SPEAKER_03] Everyone was from Oklahoma.

[00:24:07] [SPEAKER_00] Everybody said, we love you by the way we live in Oklahoma.

[00:24:09] [SPEAKER_03] Everyone. What are they called? The Sooners. Are they the Sooners?

[00:24:13] [SPEAKER_00] I think they're called sensible, intelligent men and women of all races, creeds and colors.

[00:24:18] [SPEAKER_03] We were inundated. We were mobbed by people from Oklahoma.

[00:24:21] [SPEAKER_00] And so we were thinking, well, maybe we should do more Oklahoma cases unless unless I want to throw a curveball. Is it possible people in Oklahoma like us because we don't cover their cases?

[00:24:32] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah, they don't want it. They don't want to be shamed. They don't want. Hey, don't put out Oklahoma's dirty laundry. We're going to listen. A lot of stuff going on in Indiana. Let's see what's happening up there. We don't want to hear about it. The other the other place was Oklahoma and Houston. And I just felt I sounded weird because I think I said to a couple of you guys, I was like, I have like everyone's from Houston or you guys. People are like, what?

[00:24:56] [SPEAKER_00] People often say what?

[00:24:59] [SPEAKER_02] Everyone's from Oklahoma or Houston. There's no that. That's it.

[00:25:03] [SPEAKER_03] There's no other options. So my source for this one was the BBC. And apparently in terms of the cases I pick for a cheat sheet, everyone's from the UK. So the this is kind of is about murder, but it's also about privacy and respect for the dead. First, I'm going to tell you about the murders. Two cases. June 13th, 2023. A man named Valdo Calocane murders three people.

[00:25:33] [SPEAKER_03] Barnaby Weber, Grace O'Malley Kumar and Ian Coates. Those three, they're all around the University of Nottingham area in Nottingham. And what happened is he stabs Barnaby and I'm sorry, rather Weber and O'Malley Kumar. These are two young students at the university. And then he carjacks Ian Coates and steals his vehicle and also stabs him to death.

[00:26:01] [SPEAKER_03] And what happened is attributed and, you know, basically said that this happened because Calocane was in the midst. He was a paranoid schizophrenic. And there was a history of worsening mental health issues that, you know, although it sounds like he kind of ambushed these people. So I don't know. Like there seems to be some culpability here, frankly, that goes beyond his diagnosis.

[00:26:30] [SPEAKER_03] But anyways, they basically ended up accepting a plea of three counts of manslaughter on the basis of diminished responsibility, alluding to his mental health diagnosis. And then he also drove that vehicle into a group of people causing, in some cases, life changing injuries. And that was attempted murder.

[00:26:54] [SPEAKER_03] The plea was accepted and his sentenced he was sentenced was indefinite detention at a high security hospital. So. There were criticisms about that being too lenient. So that happens there. That's what happens in Nottingham.

[00:27:10] [SPEAKER_03] Then in Southport, on July 29th, 2024, a 17-year-old who I'm not going to name because, I mean, with Calocane, I mean, there's debate about level of culpability. But it really does seem like he was very much documented as having schizophrenia and having a lot of struggles with mental health. So that seems to be the reason for what happened, you know.

[00:27:39] [SPEAKER_03] Not that schizophrenia makes everyone violent, but in instances it can make someone, you know, someone with that can become violent and it could all be tied together. In this case, though, I don't even, I'm not going to name this guy. 17 years old, goes into a dance studio called Heart Space and brutally attacks the class there, injures 10, murders three children.

[00:28:06] [SPEAKER_03] This is a Taylor Swift themed yoga and dance workshop. There were 26 kids there. So, I mean, it was attracting little girls who like Taylor Swift. And, you know, it's horrifying. It's one of those cases where, you know, yeah, you can't imagine. And just what an absolute just waste of space this person was for doing that.

[00:28:31] [SPEAKER_03] The victims were six-year-old Baby King, seven-year-old Elsie Dot Stancombe, and nine-year-old Alice Da Silva Aguiar. So they were all killed. Horrible, horrible situation. So, and he, that perpetrator was sentenced to life imprisonment in 2025. He has a minimum term of 52 years imprisonment. Good. Forget about him. You know, just people like that don't matter.

[00:29:01] [SPEAKER_03] And why do I, why do I bring these cases up together? Well, what a listener from the UK informed me was that in both cases, there have been a lot of concerns about things that happened after the victims were killed. In the case of Nottingham, there have actually been a number of people at the local NHS Trust, which is, that's short for National Health Service.

[00:29:26] [SPEAKER_03] That's one of the publicly funded health care systems in the United Kingdom. And they were at, yeah, the Nottingham version of that, I guess. And they were inappropriately accessing the medical records of the Nottingham attack victims. So 11 people were sacked, as they say in the UK, fired in the United States, and a number of people were given warnings.

[00:29:52] [SPEAKER_03] The same thing or something that appears to be similar, according to the BBC, happened with this attack in Southport. And that was essentially hundreds of, over 100 people accessed the records of the survivors' injuries and treatment without having a reason to. And what our lovely listener asked me, or kind of where we're talking, you know, she mentioned in this email, rather, was just like, is this rubbernecking? Is this something more sinister? Do they want to make content about it?

[00:30:21] [SPEAKER_03] I'm going to tell you my opinion. I think it's just, it's wanting to know it's rubbernecking, you know, and it's not appropriate. People's privacy should be protected. Things should go through the proper forms. I don't think these people or whoever was accessing this through the NHS were trying to necessarily do something bad or were even, like, thinking about it. But it's like, it's almost like, I want to know. This is a high-profile thing. I want to know.

[00:30:46] [SPEAKER_03] We've seen this kind of I want to know attitude take precedence in many high-profile cases. People hold their own desire to know something above all else. And I say this as a journalist, like, it's our job to literally be nosy and wander around and be nosy about stuff. I don't think we need to say nosiness is always bad. I mean, obviously, if you're, you know, trying to figure stuff out, that can be good. But there's a time and a place for it.

[00:31:16] [SPEAKER_03] And for people who are entrusted with caretaking or taking care of people who are sick or whatever, obviously violating that trust in order to satiate one's nosiness is not appropriate whatsoever. And there should be boundaries. You know, like, it's not appropriate. I think sometimes, like, especially in the era of the internet, I feel like there's almost, I mean, I don't want to demonize the modern day.

[00:31:41] [SPEAKER_03] I'm sure you would have back in the day, like, in old-timey reports, people's privacy were being violated all the time, right? Like, let's not act like that wasn't happening in, like, the 20s or something. But in these instances, it's like we just have to, like, I don't know, set aside that kind of immediate gratification and just do the right thing.

[00:32:02] [SPEAKER_00] Absolutely.

[00:32:03] [SPEAKER_03] Very, very sad in all those cases. But also disturbing, like, you know, I know there was concerns in the Nottingham case about a, you know, a WhatsApp group with local police officers who that came out and the family of some of the victims, I think, found that offensive. So there's a lot that it's like, you know, when you're in, I think also first responders or people working in kind of those, those can be mentally difficult jobs.

[00:32:33] [SPEAKER_03] And sometimes, like, I understand that people can, you know, do things to cope with that. But at the same time, that should never violate anyone's privacy and it should never violate the trust one that is placed in a person who is in that role. So anyways.

[00:32:50] [SPEAKER_00] I think.

[00:32:51] [SPEAKER_03] Now we're going to Georgia?

[00:32:53] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, I think we're headed to the Empire State of the South.

[00:32:57] [SPEAKER_02] Georgia. All right.

[00:33:02] [SPEAKER_03] We're going to Georgia. Georgia.

[00:33:04] [SPEAKER_00] There's nothing about that nickname that annoys you at all.

[00:33:07] [SPEAKER_03] No, it's fine. I think it's totally fine.

[00:33:09] [SPEAKER_00] No problem with the Empire State of the South.

[00:33:15] [SPEAKER_02] My source for this one is Court TV. Yes.

[00:33:18] [SPEAKER_03] This one, Kevin, this might tick even, you know, you're such a calm, responsible man. A gentleman, some might say. Some. Some people might. Others may disagree. But who knows? But you might be ticked off by this one. You often pick out cases that are going to tick me off. But I feel like you might.

[00:33:36] [SPEAKER_00] So this is.

[00:33:37] [SPEAKER_03] Shake your fist.

[00:33:38] [SPEAKER_00] This is. You're trying to poke the bear. You're trying to get me. To humiliate myself. By engaging.

[00:33:46] [SPEAKER_03] Some righteous anger. There's nothing humiliating about it.

[00:33:48] [SPEAKER_00] An emotional display.

[00:33:49] [SPEAKER_02] No.

[00:33:50] [SPEAKER_00] You're trying to provoke me. Like we were talking about in California. You're trying to do a provocative act. Let's see if it works. Let's see if your ability to manipulate me is as strong as you claim. You often call me your puppet. I don't. Let's see if that's true.

[00:34:06] [SPEAKER_03] I don't call you that. Oh, gosh.

[00:34:10] [SPEAKER_00] We'll see who the puppet master is at the end of this.

[00:34:12] [SPEAKER_03] Okay. Yeah. That's what. People are tuned in for that. So this occurred in Dallas in Paulding County, Georgia. This dates all the way back to. I believe.

[00:34:23] [SPEAKER_00] Like Dallas, Georgia. Not Dallas, Texas.

[00:34:26] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. Georgia is apparently just stealing from everyone. Although I guess we can't talk in Indiana. We got Peru. We got Mexico.

[00:34:33] [SPEAKER_00] I just want to highlight. I just want to highlight. Georgia. Nashville.

[00:34:38] [SPEAKER_02] Indiana.

[00:34:40] [SPEAKER_00] Georgia is stealing from everyone. That wasn't said by me. I love our listeners in Georgia. I like to refer to where they live as the Empire State of the South. But apparently you have. You always say you make a big. I do. You wouldn't cry about how you love everybody. But apparently. I love everybody. You feel Georgia steals from everybody. So your attempt. I'm not saying anything. Your attempt at a provocative act has provoked you. There's a lesson there. But go on.

[00:35:10] [SPEAKER_02] Oh my gosh.

[00:35:12] [SPEAKER_03] So.

[00:35:13] [SPEAKER_00] Dallas, Georgia.

[00:35:15] [SPEAKER_03] This happened on December 22nd, 2019. Yes, sir. The figures at the center of it are Lacey Jolie Bowles, who's 43, and Daniel Akers, who's 36. So this is a case where essentially the debate here is who killed Daniel Akers. He died that night of a gunshot wound.

[00:35:42] [SPEAKER_03] What Lacey Jolie Bowles and her team say is that he died of a self-inflicted one. Now, whether that's an accident or a purposeful thing, I don't know. But it's self-inflicted. That's what they say. Police and investigators say that the scene does not match that claim. And that the evidence matches Bowles being the one to pull the trigger.

[00:36:09] [SPEAKER_03] Inconsistencies with their statements, they say, and all of that. And they were a couple, mind you. So police believe this is some sort of domestic homicide. And Bowles is saying, no, no, no. He did it to himself one way or another. Now, this initially got delayed by COVID-19, apparently. But it was finally going to trial this week. The judge on it was Dean Bucci. Sorry if I'm saying his name wrong. And they're in jury selection. And you and I have been in jury selection, right, Kevin?

[00:36:39] [SPEAKER_03] Not as jurors, but as people watching the process. And they kind of take everyone through. And what they do is they go through all these rounds and they're trying to find 12 people to be on the jury usually. And, you know, a number of alternates, right?

[00:36:52] [SPEAKER_04] Yes.

[00:36:53] [SPEAKER_03] And they keep going until they get them. But in this one, things came to an abrupt halt on Tuesday, June 16, 2026. Apparently, the court clerk came forward telling the judge that a juror had asked ChatGPT about the case and then proceeded to share information that ChatGPT gave them to other prospective jurors.

[00:37:21] [SPEAKER_00] I'm curious. I'm curious, Anya. Why is that bad?

[00:37:26] [SPEAKER_03] Why didn't you tell me, Kevin?

[00:37:28] [SPEAKER_00] Well, you want to make, if you're on trial, if Anya, she so often is, is on trial for stealing cereal, she is entitled to know all of the evidence that is used against her. And she is entitled to be able to respond to that evidence.

[00:37:47] [SPEAKER_00] And she is entitled to make sure that all of the evidence used against her reaches the standard that it is allowed in court. Because obviously there's a number of types of evidence that for one reason or another is deemed too unreliable to be introduced into a legal proceeding.

[00:38:09] [SPEAKER_00] You want Anya's verdict, if you were Anya, to be based only on admissible evidence that she knows about that she can respond to. And if you are a prospective juror and you're looking things up on ChatGPT, you are going to be getting pieces of information that haven't been vetted for reliability by any court agency. You're going to be getting some evidence that may not be admitted into court.

[00:38:37] [SPEAKER_00] And you may be getting some information that Anya and the prosecution doesn't even know. And so you may be end up getting your information that you base your decision on, maybe stuff that isn't even addressed in court that Anya has never had a chance to respond to. And since you're doing it through ChatGPT, there's an additional danger there.

[00:39:02] [SPEAKER_00] We've all heard horror stories where ChatGPT gives information that's not even accurate. And so this prospective juror may be getting inaccurate, inadmissible evidence that Anya has not been apprised of and doesn't have an opportunity to respond to. And then might be using that evidence to base a verdict on in Anya's case.

[00:39:24] [SPEAKER_03] Well said, Kevin. And not only that, but we know how anchoring bias works. Anchoring bias often holds that the first thing you hear forms an impression. And people who are intellectually honest and have honed their critical thinking skills are capable of moving off of that initial bias. And the people who are not may just cling to that because that's the first thing they heard. Right. So it really is a danger to our system.

[00:39:53] [SPEAKER_03] And it just concerns me because, like, how addicted to ChatGPT do you have to be in order to do this? I mean, I don't know what happened here in Georgia, but in the jury selection I've been in, I mean, they're pretty clear about the instructions of, like, don't be talking about this and don't be looking up other stuff. I mean, like, right? I mean, am I am I am I losing it or is that they're pretty it's not like they're hiding the ball and then, oh, no, I made a mistake.

[00:40:18] [SPEAKER_03] It's like, you know, but I think some people are becoming like, for lack of a better word, just like, I don't know, maybe addicted is the wrong word, but maybe it isn't. You know, but they're becoming dependent on these things to tell them what to think. And and those people are, you know, if they don't if people who are in that position don't. Change, then they're going to be just incredibly easy to manipulate going forward and just kind of I don't know how they function. And like, I don't know what that means for democracy.

[00:40:46] [SPEAKER_03] If you have people who are not engaged in thinking to that point and they're off, they're outsourcing their thinking, you know? Yeah, it's really it disturbs me. And I don't think that everyone who uses any form of chat GPT or A.I. is doing that. I think I mean, I mean, like, like, I don't don't get mad at me. I don't want to get a bunch of emails.

[00:41:08] [SPEAKER_03] I understand that, you know, there's there's people who don't overdo it and recognize the the the failings or the kind of where you shouldn't do it and where you don't want to make, you know, your own brain not do the work. I get that. There's instances where that can be useful. I'm not someone who considers myself wholly against A.I. as a concept.

[00:41:30] [SPEAKER_03] But I think there's very disturbing implications for some of this stuff when you have people who are essentially overwhelmed by life and through that or through laziness or through, you know. Not realizing it's a bad thing, become overly reliant on it. I think you get things like this and it really has no place in a courtroom is no place in a courtroom. I don't really think it has any place like I see people. You know, kind of like ask, like, hey, Grock, tell me if Richard Allen's guilty. Like who the I'm sorry. What?

[00:41:59] [SPEAKER_03] Who cares what Grock thinks? You know, it doesn't think it's a machine. It tells you what whatever way you want to frame the question will tell you what you want to hear. You know, I just I just I don't. To me, it's a huge red flag if someone's doing that in terms of not only their opinions on true crime, but just their. Like ability to think.

[00:42:18] [SPEAKER_04] Right. Right.

[00:42:20] [SPEAKER_03] But yeah, that's that's obviously not good. Here's what happened. The judge held that juror in contempt. So they got in trouble. I don't know what that means. I don't know if they threw him in jail for a little bit or what happened. But and they released the rest of the group of prospective jurors because I mean, they've essentially been infected. Right. By this. You know, person who's like, yeah, let's ask. Let's ask Chad GPD what he thinks.

[00:42:50] [SPEAKER_03] And then they. They rescheduled the case for November, so they wasted a bunch of time and presumably money. Things are going to get delayed further. Bulls for now is free on a hundred thousand dollar bond, and she's represented by Brian Steele, who you probably recognize from the Sean Combs or P. Diddy case. But anyways, just what I'm just going to say, no one like I don't think our listeners would ever do something like this.

[00:43:18] [SPEAKER_03] But, you know, if you have a friend who's like chat GPT obsessed and they get called for jury duty, just maybe sit him down and remind him do not do this. You don't want to be held in contempt of court. You don't want to mess things up.

[00:43:28] [SPEAKER_00] Are you impressed? I kept my cool. You thought I'd be screaming and yelling. I think you got a little ticked off.

[00:43:35] [SPEAKER_01] I think you got a little ticked off. I don't. I think you imagine.

[00:43:38] [SPEAKER_00] I do like a cruise ship and I take off. I take my shoe and start pounding the desk.

[00:43:41] [SPEAKER_01] Well, that's just every other day with you. None of that happened. I didn't say that would happen.

[00:43:45] [SPEAKER_00] I'm very calm. Wow.

[00:43:47] [SPEAKER_01] You're a master of calm.

[00:43:48] [SPEAKER_03] Is that what you say?

[00:43:49] [SPEAKER_00] And before we conclude, isn't this the fifth anniversary of our honeymoon?

[00:43:55] [SPEAKER_01] What?

[00:43:55] [SPEAKER_00] Should we celebrate that?

[00:43:57] [SPEAKER_03] No. I mean.

[00:43:58] [SPEAKER_00] It was a pretty good trip.

[00:43:59] [SPEAKER_03] It was a nice honeymoon. But I don't. I. You just want to celebrate all the time.

[00:44:05] [SPEAKER_00] Do you want to party? How awful that I enjoy having. Spending my time doing pleasant things. I'm out of control over here.

[00:44:15] [SPEAKER_02] You really are.

[00:44:18] [SPEAKER_03] Anything else to add or. Oh, we should probably mention this. We are going to be going to. Columbus, Ohio. Columbus, Ohio. I'm going to pull this up, actually. A book festival.

[00:44:29] [SPEAKER_00] Ohio is the Empire State of the Midwest.

[00:44:32] [SPEAKER_03] If you're going, shoot us an email at murdersheet at gmail.com because we'd love to meet you. But yeah, this is going to be pretty cool. We are going to be. Let me see. Hopefully we're listed here. Anya Kane and Kevin Greenlee. That's us. And yeah, we're going to be there. I want to give you the exact times, though, that we're going to actually be there. So, you know, I think.

[00:45:00] [SPEAKER_03] In terms of like in terms of like speaking up and now Nick's come to pay a call. That's good. But yeah, I think actually, you know what this I can't find it right now, but go to our our website. If you want to come go to our website. It's literally just murdersheetpodcast.com. We link to it every day in all of our show notes. And if you go to events, by the time you listen to this, I will have put it up on our events.

[00:45:29] [SPEAKER_03] Events, again, it's on our home page. You'll see home episodes about support contact events. Click on events and you'll know all the information you need to know about the Columbus Book Festival.

[00:45:39] [SPEAKER_00] So before Columbus, Ohio. Yeah, Columbus, Ohio. Before we wrap, should we like make a commitment or make it a goal that we appear at least once in every town named Columbus in this country? No. Because we've hit Columbus, Indiana. Now we're going to do Columbus, Ohio.

[00:45:58] [SPEAKER_01] No, we're not doing that.

[00:46:00] [SPEAKER_00] You have a lot to make up to for the people in Georgia. So surely we should go to Columbus, Georgia after your reckless remarks.

[00:46:10] [SPEAKER_02] The Georgia apology tour.

[00:46:12] [SPEAKER_00] So yeah, maybe that should be a goal. Maybe we should talk about that off mic.

[00:46:17] [SPEAKER_02] Off mic.

[00:46:18] [SPEAKER_00] That'd be the Columbus tour. That can be our branding. They went to every Columbus.

[00:46:22] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah, that's what people will say. Not they've lost their minds.

[00:46:26] [SPEAKER_00] The murder sheet discovers Columbus.

[00:46:29] [SPEAKER_02] The murder sheet salutes Columbus. Yeah. All of them. We done.

[00:46:35] [SPEAKER_00] Like Columbus, Indiana. That's the Athens of the prairies. Maybe Columbus, Ohio is the Troy of the Midwest. I don't know. But I'm sure there's something there.

[00:46:47] [SPEAKER_02] And Columbus, Georgia is the Sparta of the mountains.

[00:46:51] [SPEAKER_00] See, it writes itself.

[00:46:53] [SPEAKER_03] I don't know if it's in the mountains. Don't come for me, Georgians.

[00:46:56] [SPEAKER_00] You're just making it worse. I think we need to end this.

[00:46:59] [SPEAKER_02] Thank you.

[00:47:02] [SPEAKER_00] Thanks so much for listening to The Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us at murdersheet at gmail.com. If you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[00:47:20] [SPEAKER_03] If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com slash murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www.buymeacoffee.com slash murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.

[00:47:46] [SPEAKER_00] Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for The Murder Sheet, and who you can find on the web at kevintg.com.

[00:47:55] [SPEAKER_03] If you're looking to talk with other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience, as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.