The Cheat Sheet: Revolutions and Rats

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[00:04:13] [SPEAKER_03] I'm Anya, and today on the Cheat Sheet, we're going to be going to Pennsylvania, Texas, California, and Missouri. Content warning, this episode contains discussion of murder and violence, including attorney-on-attorney violence of the figurative story.

[00:04:32] [SPEAKER_01] And attorneys, as you tell me, are the kings and queens of this land.

[00:04:37] [SPEAKER_03] No, they're the paupers. They need to be thrown in the jail, which is spelled G-A-O-L. That's what I think.

[00:04:43] [SPEAKER_01] So we're going all across this great land. The Keystone State.

[00:04:48] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah.

[00:04:49] [SPEAKER_01] The Keystone State. The Lone Star State. And what was the other one?

[00:04:53] [SPEAKER_03] The Golden State.

[00:04:53] [SPEAKER_01] The Golden State of the West. The Empire State of the West.

[00:04:56] [SPEAKER_03] No. No, just, yeah. Well, we're going, yeah, it's two big states, California and Texas, and then Pennsylvania and Missouri thrown in for good measure. So I think we've got some wild cases today.

[00:05:09] [SPEAKER_01] We didn't plan it that well. No.

[00:05:12] [SPEAKER_03] This road trip is going to suck.

[00:05:15] [SPEAKER_01] Well, we shouldn't say that. We shouldn't say that.

[00:05:18] [SPEAKER_03] Oh, yeah, all the California Texans, all the Missouri, what do they call the Missouri? Missourians? I don't even know. I'm sorry. I'm offending everybody right now. We're just crashing out.

[00:05:28] [SPEAKER_01] You know what I call people from Missouri?

[00:05:31] [SPEAKER_03] What?

[00:05:32] [SPEAKER_01] I call them right-thinking Americans of every race, breed, and color. Nothing but respect for-

[00:05:37] [SPEAKER_03] I call them friends. We have a huge amount of listeners in Missouri.

[00:05:43] [SPEAKER_01] Love Missouri. It's the show-me state. Harry Truman. Mark Twain. But before we get into it, usually I say this at the end. I want to say this at the beginning. We have a lot of fun on our premium. That's true. When I said we have fun, what am I talking about? What is this thing I call fun?

[00:05:59] [SPEAKER_03] I don't know. Jests and japes and married times. I don't know what you're setting me up for here.

[00:06:06] [SPEAKER_01] What's our premium?

[00:06:06] [SPEAKER_03] Our premium offerings are on Apple for $4.99 a month. And then we have Patreon. And that starts at $5 a month. And sometimes people donate a bit more, which we always appreciate. And that's where you can basically sign up. You're supporting the show. And what you're getting is early episodes. Pretty much as we edit them, we'll drop them on you guys. You are the guinea pigs, unfortunately.

[00:06:34] [SPEAKER_03] Unfortunately, sometimes it's actually kind of helpful for me because people will be like, hey, the sound here was really weird and I could fix it. Ha ha ha. But hopefully, mostly you're going to kind of get stuff as it breaks. And that's one good service about it. You also are getting ad-free episodes. So you're not being interrupted by ads. Some people really appreciate that. They don't like the ads. And then the other thing is that you are getting exclusive episodes. So those are things we do.

[00:07:00] [SPEAKER_03] We have two Patreon lives a month that the Apple folks also get afterwards. And we also have a weekly show that we just kind of do for premium. And just we're talking about different cases. We've talked a lot about Lindsay Clancy, that case. We talk about different cases that we're not always covering on the show, but we're kind of getting into and kind of having a discussion with people behind the scenes on. And I think it's just been really fun to connect with people.

[00:07:24] [SPEAKER_01] And sometimes you cook.

[00:07:26] [SPEAKER_03] Sometimes I'm going to make a meal. Unfortunately, Kevin and I are the only ones enjoying that. We're like no one's coming in, barging in, eating all the food. But I'll tell you about it. And so I've been told I've inspired some people to make their own.

[00:07:39] [SPEAKER_01] Should we have a thing where like one premium supporter a month can come and eat one of Anya's dishes?

[00:07:47] [SPEAKER_03] I think the pressure would be on. Like what if they like went home and were like, that was pretty mediocre. I don't think I'd ever recover from that.

[00:07:56] [SPEAKER_01] But they'd have a scintillating conversation.

[00:07:59] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah, I don't know, man. My last couple brain cells are fried. So they might be pretty disappointed, but it might be fun. Who knows? So shall we get on to the episode? All right, let's do it. My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist.

[00:08:13] [SPEAKER_01] And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney. And this is The Murder Sheet. We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews and deep dives into murder cases. We're The Murder Sheet.

[00:08:25] [SPEAKER_03] And this is The Cheat Sheet, Revolutions and Rats.

[00:08:28] [SPEAKER_03] Well, when we started out, Kevin, you pointed out that you believe that attorneys are the princes and princesses of.

[00:09:21] [SPEAKER_01] I think actually I said kings and queens.

[00:09:24] [SPEAKER_03] Kings and queens. I'm sorry. Even more advanced royalty. The monarchs of society. Is that something? I'm curious. What were we going to say?

[00:09:33] [SPEAKER_01] That's something you've often told me is one of the bedrocks of your personal belief system. I know that when I met you, your bedroom was full of pictures of lawyers, be it Clarence Darrow, Thurgood Marshall, William Brennan.

[00:09:54] [SPEAKER_03] That's true. That's not true at all.

[00:09:57] [SPEAKER_01] Vincent Bugliosi.

[00:09:58] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah.

[00:09:58] [SPEAKER_01] You said, and on many of those pictures, you had drawn crude images of crowns atop their heads. And like hearts and stuff. And some you also added scepters.

[00:10:10] [SPEAKER_03] Scepters. Wow. I was really doing a lot back then.

[00:10:13] [SPEAKER_01] It was kind of sad.

[00:10:16] [SPEAKER_03] Pathetic.

[00:10:17] [SPEAKER_01] You've spoken to a clergyman since then. I think it's a little bit better. But why do you bring this up? Because I would think you have found it too embarrassing to talk about.

[00:10:24] [SPEAKER_03] I was just wondering, like, you know, do you like do you I mean, attorneys, their job is oftentimes, you know, certainly if they're a trial attorney to argue to kind of get into verbal spats with others. But this one might still surprise you because it is very much in the context of within a district attorney's office.

[00:10:47] [SPEAKER_03] A revolution has broken out, but possibly not the revolution that the frankly revolutionary minded D.A. had in mind.

[00:10:58] [SPEAKER_01] Fill us in.

[00:10:59] [SPEAKER_03] This is such a mess. So you actually covered this case on on cheat sheet before. So I picked it up and I'm obsessed with it now. I call this like the prosecutor's revolt or something. The district, the ADA's revolt. I don't know. It's it's really well. This was the case of District Attorney Lawrence Krasner or Larry Krasner.

[00:11:22] [SPEAKER_03] And you brought this up because essentially what happened was a judge was weighing in whether or not to essentially disqualify Krasner and Krasner's office from being a part of a case. And I mean, what can you why is that shocking?

[00:11:43] [SPEAKER_01] Because usually the prosecutors have a pretty important role in a case. And so if there is an official determination that the prosecutors in a case. Are not capable or not eligible to participate in the case, it's usually the sign of some pretty serious wrongdoing. And it's not the sort of thing that you would see happen very often.

[00:12:09] [SPEAKER_03] No, I mean, prosecutors, you know, people some people love them. Some people hate them. Right. I think they, you know, perform a very important role. Right. Within all of this. But, you know, oftentimes we hear from prosecutors like, hey, we're the ones supposed to be wearing the white hat like in a cowboy movie. We're supposed to be the good guys. Like we have to kind of be above any sort of conflict, above any sort of issue.

[00:12:32] [SPEAKER_03] And in this case, what's happened is that on September 15th, 2026, Paul Diamond, who is a is a judge. He disqualified D.A. Lawrence Krasner on conflict grounds from appearing in a specific case, along with assistant district attorney Matthew Stiegler. And so what is what is all this about? So let's go back to the beginning. Why did these people kind of get thrown off this case? And let me just be clear.

[00:13:01] [SPEAKER_03] It's not just that. Like, so they've been thrown off this by this judge. And in addition to that, now this judge has wrote this in this in this memorandum around this. Quote, in these circumstances, I'm compelled with the issuance of this memorandum to refer the DAO, the district attorney's office, Mr. Krasner and Stiegler to this district's United States attorney's office for investigation. And other appropriate action.

[00:13:31] [SPEAKER_03] So now they're being investigated by the feds over this.

[00:13:34] [SPEAKER_01] This is pretty serious.

[00:13:36] [SPEAKER_03] What? So what happened? What went down? So we talk about in 2007, a man was murdered. That man was named Kenyatta Smith. And an individual named Dennis Johnson was convicted of that second degree murder, robbery, firearms offense on September 30th, 2009. That is the case that is is has prompted this massive spiral.

[00:14:01] [SPEAKER_03] Now, there were witnesses who said that Johnson was the shooter, someone named Curtis Smith and somebody named Ozzie Clark. So whatever. So they convict the guy. This is a North Philadelphia convenience store. And they were all in the store. And essentially what the witnesses said was Johnson robbed the victim, went through his pockets and then shot and killed him. So terrible crime. This happens. Johnson is sentenced to life imprisonment for second degree murder.

[00:14:30] [SPEAKER_03] And he also starts filing a petition for writ of habeas corpus. And that goes to Judge Diamond. So this goes on for a number of years. There's different like amended petitions. He keeps amending it. And at some point, November 4th, 2022, the district attorney's office of Philadelphia files its response to the third amended petition. And that's signed by someone named assistant district attorney Jacqueline Mason.

[00:14:57] [SPEAKER_03] And what they do in that is they actually concede that Johnson was entitled to habeas relief because his trial counsel ineffectively failed to object to a hearsay identification of Johnson, where basically a detective on the stand said, oh, this guy also said he saw Johnson. And that wasn't objected to, even though that was hearsay. So, OK, whatever. This is where things OK. This is where things really start to go off the rails.

[00:15:25] [SPEAKER_03] So the district attorney's office then, on June 5th, 2026, moves to withdraw that November 2022 concession, saying it contained, quote, material misstatements. And this is what the judge's memorandum says, quote, unusually four ADAs, Catherine Ernst, Stephen Wildberger, David Napierski and Peter Andrews. The four. The four. That's what they're calling them.

[00:15:55] [SPEAKER_03] It sounds like a superhero team signed the motion. They explained that under the supervision of ADA Matthew Stiegler, Mason had prepared the concession. The four further stated that without explanation that Mason had resigned from the DAO on June 2nd, 2026. So, yeah.

[00:16:14] [SPEAKER_03] Then the the office of the attorney general Pennsylvania gets involved and they're saying, well, hey, this withdrawal of motion doesn't even begin to cover all the misstatements and issues within the concession brief. And, you know, they feel like somebody's lying at this point. Basically, the judge at some point is like, what is going on here? Why are you filing?

[00:16:37] [SPEAKER_03] First of all, like the DAO is, first of all, flipping and going from saying, hey, we think this guy should remain in prison because he's guilty to being like, no, actually, we don't think that anymore. So, I mean, that's that's one thing. And then you have essentially all these four ADA is coming out and saying, hey, something's really wrong here.

[00:16:57] [SPEAKER_03] So, on July 20th, 2026, ADA's Ernst and Weylberger filed a notice of conflict stating the entire DAO had a conflict of interest in Johnson because the district attorney received litigation advice from Stiegler who, quote, because he was more concerned with his professional reputation than Johnson's merits, had a clear conflict of interest, end quote.

[00:17:22] [SPEAKER_03] So, they describe that, you know, like, so basically the judge does some digging and has essentially a number of, I think, two days of hearings where he's basically kind of grilling some of the people involved of like, what is going on here? And what he finds is that Jacqueline Mason joined the DAO in July of 2021.

[00:17:47] [SPEAKER_03] She had no experience in criminal law before and worked closely with Stiegler, who was then the supervisor of the federal litigation unit. And this is something that the judge found with Stiegler during his tenure, quote, during his tenure, he sought to move the unit away from what he called the practice of reflexively opposing relief in habeas cases.

[00:18:14] [SPEAKER_03] He described himself as trying to decide what was right, started reporting. So, yeah. So and so at that point, Stiegler is also reporting directly to Krasner. So what do you make of someone being appointed to a leadership role in federal litigation and sort of unilaterally deciding we're not going to just reflexively oppose habeas motions?

[00:18:37] [SPEAKER_01] I want to say that this whole thing is is it's troubling. It doesn't necessarily start out being troubling, but we get to troubling pretty quickly.

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[00:23:32] [SPEAKER_03] I'll tell you why because listen if something I mean if a district attorney's office finds that some injustice did occur I think they have a responsibility to make that right.

[00:23:43] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah I would think that any district attorney's office would tell you that they do not reflexively oppose anything that a defense team puts forward. So this isn't the troubling part but we get to the troubling part soon enough.

[00:23:58] [SPEAKER_03] Well yeah and it's like here's the problem. I mean my thesis for this is anyone who puts ideology over facts has no business being in a district attorney's office in any capacity. And whatever ideology anyone holds dear.

[00:24:17] [SPEAKER_01] Because yeah obviously you can have different ideologies and maybe one ideology is everybody's innocent. The other ideology could be everybody's guilty. And either one of those ideologies if you put them ahead of your duties can lead to some pretty troublesome results.

[00:24:35] [SPEAKER_03] That's exactly right but unfortunately we have seen there has been I think there's people who go into district attorney's roles. And essentially see the district attorney as the bad guy and it's like I'm not going to be the bad guy I'm going to do it differently. But I don't think those people are really cut out to actually be district attorneys. You know they want a revolution right.

[00:24:58] [SPEAKER_03] Like and I like I understand why and I understand elements of their criticism of the criminal justice system. But like if you're not prepared to send criminals to prison and keep criminals in prison and speak for the victims then I don't want you anywhere near. Like be a defense attorney. You know what I mean. Fight the power that way. You know fighting the power from within I think leads to some pretty dicey situations. And certainly we're going to get into that here.

[00:25:28] [SPEAKER_03] So what the judge found from these different kind of testimonies is that Stiegler learned of Johnson that case in 2021 when the Defender Association urged that they take a close look at it and assign it to an experienced ADA. So Stiegler started working closely with the defender and the innocence project. Right. Great idea to and basically was meeting with them regularly to discuss it.

[00:25:55] [SPEAKER_03] He assigned the case on December 6th 2021 to Mason who had been at that point in ADA for four months. And at that point Stiegler had already decided at the at the suggestion of the innocence project that the DAO would concede the grant of habeas release a relief on a Brady issue and waive the exhaustion defense to that claim. And.

[00:26:21] [SPEAKER_03] Jacqueline Mason said, quote, Matt's already made the assessment and the decision here is that this is going to be a case that should be conceded. So he'd already decided to concede relief. Mason basically being inexperienced, sees no need to really review the record of the case and just goes with what Stiegler is telling her to do and just being a conduit for drafting the thing. In accordance with what Stiegler told her and the advice they received from the innocence project and the guy defending Johnson.

[00:26:51] [SPEAKER_03] And this is what Stiegler told Mason, quote, if it's good enough for the innocence project, it's good enough for me. End quote. Red flag. That's not good. Right, folks. I mean, what do you think, Kevin?

[00:27:06] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, that's not a good barometer. You don't let your job as prosecutor is to use your own discretion and your own judgment and your own analysis of the value or lack thereof of evidence, your own analysis of the value of the strength or weakness of a case.

[00:27:28] [SPEAKER_01] It is not your role to subcontract that out to the innocence project and simply adopt whatever position they hold. I think no matter what I think about the innocence projects, it's probably true that in some cases they're right. In some cases they're wrong. And we shouldn't blindly follow their assessments or any other organization's assessments of anything, especially if you've been elected to make your own assessments.

[00:27:56] [SPEAKER_03] We have an adversarial system. And I think that's the best way. I don't want a DA to dig in their heels and not let someone out of prison if they feel like the evidence, you know, if they feel like something's wrong. But I want I would want there to be a vigorous investigation. Stiegler since claimed that he thought Mason was going to do the investigation. But the judge literally says, I don't believe him. And they talked to these innocence project attorneys many times. They talked to the defense many times.

[00:28:26] [SPEAKER_03] They were all kind of basically colluding to figure out what would be the best claim to concede on. Like, again, we shouldn't want this. This is not justice. And it sounds like Stiegler's beliefs in sort of I want to be different and I want to do things differently may have been a real problem here. So they were.

[00:28:51] [SPEAKER_03] They were very much Stiegler was also big on keeping the O.A.G., the Office of the Attorney General, out of it. They said he wrote on October 3rd, 2022. They got a letter from Michael Cord, who was Johnson's trial attorney, confessing to being incompetent. And he said, quote, I think the letter does increase the odds of Judge Diamond granting relief without a hearing. But I doubt it reduces the odds of him inviting the O.A.G. to participate if he does do a hearing. I remain keen to avoid the latter danger.

[00:29:20] [SPEAKER_03] Again, not only is it we're working with the Innocence Project, but also like we don't want anyone to be involved in this whatsoever.

[00:29:28] So.

[00:29:29] [SPEAKER_03] Apparently, at this point, the DAO has conceded relief and exonerated, quote unquote, exonerated 60 people in the same exact manner since 2018. So the 60 people who benefited from this, that should concern people. Okay. Okay. So anyways, then they start basically at so 2026, they start the style starts to unravel because the four, as they call them in this document, get involved.

[00:30:01] [SPEAKER_03] And they, the four, they're all like different supervisors in different capacities in the office. And it talks about how they first began to investigate it because of some back and forth. And they all started to panic because they brought in. So at that point, Napierski supervised law division. Wildberger was the assistant supervisor there. Andrew supervised the federal litigation unit. Ernst was the law division's chief of training.

[00:30:30] [SPEAKER_03] Apparently, at some point, Stiegler became the conviction integrity unit chief. So, again, concerning. The four and Mason met to prepare for a hearing that Diamond had ordered. They divided the responsibilities. And basically what these four start to realize is there are a ton of errors and claims in the concession and whatnot that are just like really bad.

[00:30:59] [SPEAKER_03] Like significant errors. They felt like they had a duty to correct them. And the four all start talking and they start realizing like, OK, you're seeing the same thing. This is really, really bad. And they kind of go to Mason and they're like, you signed this. Maybe you should take some responsibility for all these errors. Now she starts freaking out. She's like, but Stiegler made me do it. And she thinks that they're trying to make her fall on the sword. But they told they told her this, you know, because she's getting upset with them.

[00:31:25] [SPEAKER_03] And Wildberger said, quote, you'll find no Matt Stiegler apologists here. So they're like, we don't like him. We're not trying to get you in trouble. But like what happened here? They didn't want her to be thrown under the bus for him. But they were concerned that she was going to be the scapegoat. But anyway, she ends up getting mad and resigning anyway.

[00:31:48] [SPEAKER_03] And she wrote in her resignation letter, quote, Stiegler, quote, used me to further his personal agenda of conceding in federal habeas cases regardless of the merits, quote, and that she'd been asked to fall on her sword. And, quote, Matt must submit and swear in an affidavit that he erred and that he was responsible for what was filed in this case. So at this point, Stiegler gets wind of this. He starts lobbying the four, basically saying, oh, it was all Mason's fault. Definitely. I definitely didn't do any of this.

[00:32:16] [SPEAKER_03] She totally purposely inserted false facts into the response. And and basically what they told him was like, dude, you know, like that just you were her supervisor. So how are you even letting that happen? And also, we don't believe you. And then they also he starts being like, here's what we should do. We should go through all her other cases and make a compilation of all the mistakes she made so that it'll look like it was her fault. And they're like, oh, OK, we're not going to do that.

[00:32:43] [SPEAKER_03] So. So. Yeah. And so meanwhile, Stiegler also testified before the judge later. He was saying, oh, she's so inexperienced. She did all this wrong. And then, like to the judge, he said, oh, she was one of the best ADAs in the unit. So, like, I don't know. Things are not adding up. Stiegler and Krasner, his boss, the DA start talking about it. He tells that to the four.

[00:33:06] [SPEAKER_03] And at some point, the four meet with Krasner and they're saying, hey, we need to withdraw the concession brief and you need to refer Johnson to the O.A.G. because conflicts, the conflict being that Stiegler messed it up and is now trying to cover it up. And like they've kind of lost the plot. What do you think about that at this point in terms of the conflicts?

[00:33:27] [SPEAKER_01] I think there's some pretty serious conflicts there. And I think they've obviously lost the plot there. It didn't necessarily start in a disturbing place, but we've gotten to a pretty disturbing, upsetting place.

[00:33:38] [SPEAKER_03] I mean, again, like I think Krasner was very much a progressive candidate. And, you know, like obviously people who are true believers in that can go very much on the on the side of like everyone should be released out of prison and everyone's innocent. And as we've seen, I mean, sometimes there's real merit to that. And then sometimes it's facts be damned, you know, like it just kind of depends. Innocence projects also vary.

[00:34:08] [SPEAKER_03] Like there's it's not one organization. It's not the FBI. Right. It's like there's different offshoots associated with different institutions. You might get one that's really on the money and they're doing mostly like really solid work. And then you might get one that's kind of taking whatever they get or taking a lot of what they get or making arguments that are kind of facetious. I mean, and you just have to look at it as a case by case thing.

[00:34:33] [SPEAKER_03] And you shouldn't be offshoring your work to them in regardless because I mean, that's that's simply not fair. So anyways, so Stiegler. So Krasner tells the four the following. This is so this is so nuts, Kevin. Quote, someone gave me a really good idea. Actually, it was Matt, Mr. Stiegler, that gave me this really good idea.

[00:34:56] [SPEAKER_03] I think that we should go through Miss Mason's cases, find mistakes that she made in other cases, say that this was a pattern by her and then file something with the court saying that. End quote. What do you make of that?

[00:35:09] [SPEAKER_01] I'm repeating myself. This is just very, very disturbing. It's very upsetting. It's this sort of thing. A number of people are very critical of innocence projects and.

[00:35:21] [SPEAKER_03] Not enough people.

[00:35:22] [SPEAKER_01] Not enough people. But those who are critical, this probably goes beyond even their wildest imaginations and fears.

[00:35:29] [SPEAKER_03] So Krasner is basically covering up for Stiegler because I think, you know, if the Stiegler stuff breaks, then it will reveal that they've been doing this for a while. They've done it in a bunch of cases. And God knows who they let out based on God knows what bungled motions and bungled facts. It's a scandal. And instead of saying, look, let's deal with this honestly. It's like he wants to save his golden boy or something. I don't even know.

[00:35:57] [SPEAKER_03] So the four is like, no, we can't do that. You know, this is a conflict. Stiegler lobbied two of us, Ernst and Apiorski. So we can't even be involved in this anymore because we have a conflict and you really need to go to the OEAG. A number of times over over the days and weeks and whatever, they lobbied him to go to the OEAG. Just go to the OEAG. Like we have a conflict. Go to like let them handle this. Let them take this up. No, no, no. Krasner talks about how they're evil. The OEAG is evil.

[00:36:27] [SPEAKER_03] He talks about how the OEAG is Nazis. He freaking hates the OEAG. He doesn't want the OEAG. And again, is there a is there a political reason? The current Pennsylvania attorney general is Republican and this guy is, you know, very progressive Democrat. I don't think that should matter. Like I can understand having tensions or like you guys do things differently than us. But like at this point, it's not about politics. At this point, it's simply about, hey.

[00:36:55] [SPEAKER_03] Somebody did something potentially pretty bad here or like really kind of lost the plot. And we need to kind of stop the damage and kind of get it out of here. And like he's just refusing to do that, even though that's the obvious thing you should be doing if you have any integrity. You go he's ranting about the OEAG. Everyone in the OEAG is Nazis. It's just totally nuts.

[00:37:16] [SPEAKER_01] That's always a good sign when you're criticized and you start talking about big conspiracies and the people on the other side of it are Nazis. That's always a good way to make yourself seem reasonable and to discredit the criticisms of yourself.

[00:37:32] [SPEAKER_03] Listen, I have my own strong political opinions. I when I see other people with different political opinions, sometimes I get mad or I'm like, what the heck are they thinking? But like to, you know, at this point, at this point, like whatever your loyalty is to your ideology, whatever your loyalty is to Stiegler. The horse is out of the barn. Like you got to do some damage control and the damage control shouldn't be like blaming it on Mason.

[00:37:59] [SPEAKER_03] It should be dealing with what happened and taking your medicine and maybe learning. OK, I don't need to appoint somebody who's to total ideologue and let them do whatever they want, you know, because that's not useful. I really don't want someone who I don't care if they're right wing, left wing centrist. I don't think someone should be in a role as important as like a person who's making decisions like this in the DOA.

[00:38:25] [SPEAKER_03] It's a DAO who is simply doing so out of ideology because that's like, frankly, everyone's ideology comes up against facts sometimes. Like, I don't care what you like. Everyone believes in what they want to believe. Fine. But like at some point, it's going to come up on the rocks.

[00:38:41] [SPEAKER_01] If you put your political beliefs over facts, then you're going to come to some wrong conclusions. Maybe you're going to end up prosecuting more people than you should and put innocent people behind bars. Maybe you're going to end up letting plainly guilty people go free and endangering people that way. The fact of the matter is the facts need to triumph over your ideology.

[00:39:09] [SPEAKER_03] Ernst told Krasner, quote, protecting this office is going to run headlong into doing what we need to do for the case. They found that so the four investigated the case. Napierski discovered problems with the recantations and the recanting witnesses and all the stuff that's undermining the concession brief. And Krasner keeps on. And so they the four become convinced that Krasner is going to cover this up. He's going to withhold critical facts from their ethics expert.

[00:39:36] [SPEAKER_03] And at one point, another attorney in the office warned them, quote, Krasner was feeling boxed in and he could become very reactive if he feels people are backing him into a corner. End quote. Again. Just do the right thing. So they draft a memorandum. They email it to Krasner. He emails back on another woman, another person in the office, Jen Lin, writing this response is not from Jen Lin.

[00:40:02] [SPEAKER_03] It's from Larry Krasner, end quote, so it wouldn't appear in his email history. And he ends up getting very angry at the four for pushing this so hard because he's like and he starts basically like he's furious. He's angry with them. He's annoyed. He's you know, you're putting all this in writing. It's going to get us in trouble. It's discoverable. He starts saying there'll be consequences. So they're like, we're going to get fired. At one point, they like take away a memorandum they wrote about all this. Stiegler tries to get a copy of it.

[00:40:32] [SPEAKER_03] They're like, no, you can't have it. Like they're like getting out of there. I mean, it's this whole whistleblower thing. And yeah, then they file into the cases I discussed. And so, you know, basically what the judge is saying is like Krasner's out. He's conflicted. Stiegler's out. He's conflicted. He did not conflict out the entire DAO. So he's like, listen, the fact that the four stood up to him and we're doing the right thing makes me think the office is OK. But it's a mess.

[00:41:02] [SPEAKER_03] So that's where things are now. And now it's been referred to the feds for investigating Krasner. And again, like I just find this so appalling. This is not how anything should work. I think, again, I do believe like if a district attorney's office feels like, OK, we sent the wrong guy to prison or this case falls apart, I do think they have an obligation to look into that. But the obligation isn't to just agree with their friends in the innocence project. It should be to do an independent investigation and see what happens.

[00:41:31] [SPEAKER_03] Go with the facts, not with what you want to be the outcome, because if you do find a bunch of problems with recantations or people are like, you know. Having, you know, I don't know, being incentivized to recant or whatever, or they're not credible for whatever reason. That needs to be weighed, too. It's not fair to murder victims or victims of any crime in their families that this would happen. We've seen it happen in other areas.

[00:41:58] [SPEAKER_03] I know, you know, I just I just think it's it's it's shocking.

[00:42:02] [SPEAKER_01] But it is it is genuinely shocking because it goes against everything that these people were elected to do and what their job.

[00:42:11] [SPEAKER_03] And they're like, it's so sneaky of like, like, I'm going to email you on someone else's like, what the heck? What is going on here? Stop being like, stop being a weird, corrupt acting creep. Like, it's so bad. I don't know. You know, again, like and like, here's my big thing with people with politics. If you can't criticize people on your own side or if you can't criticize your fellow travelers or if you can't criticize your own ideology at times or see where it can get excessive, then you have no business.

[00:42:41] [SPEAKER_03] You have no business, frankly, being in any sort of leadership role. And also, you're not intellectually honest. I have my own very strong opinions and I'm very capable of being like, well, I don't like that about the party I vote for or this or that. And, you know, it just if you can't do that, then you're in a cult. Like, no, I mean, like, I think a lot of people are walking around in cults because it's like everything my side does is good. Blue is always good. Red is always good.

[00:43:05] [SPEAKER_03] You know, like, again, I'm telling you, like, I have very strong political opinions, but I'm not going to just be like, you know, if you can't criticize or look at what your own side is doing, then you've lost it. Totally.

[00:43:18] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, you're very well known as a wig.

[00:43:21] [SPEAKER_03] Yes, my wig. I'm going to I'm going to fight the wigs.

[00:43:24] [SPEAKER_01] You know, we're going to you for the wigs.

[00:43:25] [SPEAKER_03] I know, but I'm fighting them if they're getting it wrong. Yeah.

[00:43:27] [SPEAKER_01] If the wigs come out.

[00:43:29] [SPEAKER_03] If the wigs took over a district attorney's office and we're doing weird wiggish things in a corrupt way, I would be mad.

[00:43:34] [SPEAKER_01] Because ultimately, if the wigs take over a political office and mismanage it, they are discrediting the wig ideology.

[00:44:14] [SPEAKER_03] Who's messing around and just getting lunch with the innocence project constantly. Like, you got it. You we have to scrutinize our own, you know, our own selves, whether it's wigs or whatever. All right. Now, I think we're finally emerging from Pennsylvania, from the murkiness of Philadelphia's district attorney's office revolution.

[00:44:35] [SPEAKER_01] And in these other cases, they're not going to take as long. So don't worry.

[00:44:39] [SPEAKER_03] Don't worry.

[00:44:40] [SPEAKER_01] Although I guess. Don't freak out. I guess our dear friend, the listeners. They're not like us because right now we don't know how long this episode is going to be.

[00:44:50] [SPEAKER_03] They know exactly.

[00:44:51] [SPEAKER_01] Because as soon as they got the episode, there was a time stamp.

[00:44:54] [SPEAKER_03] That's dramatic irony for you. Actually, I forget what kind of irony.

[00:44:57] [SPEAKER_01] But our listeners, they know more than we do.

[00:45:00] [SPEAKER_03] They're very intelligent.

[00:45:01] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. So I have no idea that this episode could run another five minutes. It could run another five hours. I don't know. Either way is equally plausible. So we're going to Texas? Yeah. That's your way of telling me, Kevin, stop.

[00:45:14] [SPEAKER_03] Get in the car.

[00:45:18] [SPEAKER_01] You don't like me enjoying the sights and musing upon what it inspires within me. Get in. Let's go down to Texas. My source for this is Houston Public Media. There is a well-known case you may have heard of, the Texas Killing Fields cases. Yes. There was recently a conviction in one of those cases.

[00:45:42] [SPEAKER_01] This is a conviction in the death of Laura Miller. She vanished when she was 16 years old all the way back in 1984. A man named James Elmore is guilty of felony manslaughter and using or exhibiting a deadly weapon. Laura's father, Tim Miller, has been especially vigilant in trying to get justice for her.

[00:46:09] [SPEAKER_01] He was able to get a recorded interview with this man. And during this interview, this man confessed. His lawyers say he was just doing it for money or to get a reward. And he was just making stuff up. And the prosecutor was like, no, no, no. Some of the things he said were not publicly known. And it fits with everything else. And so he is convicted.

[00:46:37] [SPEAKER_01] And all of these decades later, there is a measure of justice and closure in the case.

[00:46:42] [SPEAKER_03] Oh, God bless that father for, you know, continuing to fight for his daughter. And don't you just love when criminals like this are just dumb? Yeah, I'll confess on camera.

[00:46:53] [SPEAKER_01] What could I lose? I'll roll the dice. What is the possible downside?

[00:46:59] [SPEAKER_03] What could go wrong? But I mean, frankly, Hannibal Lecter is a myth. Most of these people are very stupid, you know. And I guess Texas Killing Fields, I imagine if they're only convicting him on one of them, I imagine it sounds like maybe there's a couple of murderers going on at the same time. It's not all like one serial killer.

[00:47:23] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:47:24] [SPEAKER_03] Wow.

[00:47:26] [SPEAKER_01] In fact, he indicated that he was working with someone and the person, that person has subsequently committed suicide.

[00:47:36] [SPEAKER_03] Oh, that he was killing people with this guy?

[00:47:39] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:47:40] [SPEAKER_03] Okay. Well, too bad he didn't commit suicide before killing any of these young women.

[00:47:45] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. Yeah. It is a shame. But yeah, it's not a good idea to confess on camera. The only... Don't tell them that.

[00:47:54] [SPEAKER_03] No, our listeners aren't murderers. Yeah.

[00:47:56] [SPEAKER_01] The only upside would be if I confessed on camera to kidnapping the Lindbergh baby. Obviously, no one would take that seriously. I'm a very old man. I'm not quite old. You're not old. Not quite old enough to have committed that crime. So if you make a confession, make sure you're confessing to a crime that you can easily prove you had nothing to do with.

[00:48:22] [SPEAKER_03] Precisely.

[00:48:23] [SPEAKER_01] And don't include the details that only the killer would know, because that's going to come back to haunt you.

[00:48:30] [SPEAKER_03] Give me some life advice for the potential killer confessors.

[00:48:34] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, because as a storyteller, you want to include some of those vivid details. But confessing on camera, not a good idea to include those vivid details then.

[00:48:45] [SPEAKER_03] Well, I'm glad he did so he can throw his old ass in prison.

[00:48:49] [SPEAKER_01] But yeah, I don't mean to be giving people advice. I don't want to have a special episode of Murder Sheet. Here's how you get away with it.

[00:48:55] [SPEAKER_03] No.

[00:48:55] [SPEAKER_01] We should say, if you actually do commit a brutal crime, yeah, go ahead and confess.

[00:49:01] [SPEAKER_03] Nothing bad will happen to you.

[00:49:03] [SPEAKER_01] Go on camera. Go on television. Shout it from the rooftops. Actually, just go immediately to police headquarters and say, I did it.

[00:49:13] [SPEAKER_03] And they'll say, thanks for letting us know. And that's it. That's all that'll happen.

[00:49:17] [SPEAKER_01] They're going to say, we admire your honesty.

[00:49:19] [SPEAKER_03] Thanks for being honest about that one.

[00:49:21] [SPEAKER_01] And now maybe we can all grow and learn from it.

[00:49:23] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah.

[00:49:24] [SPEAKER_01] So why aren't you, or is it me again?

[00:49:26] [SPEAKER_03] No, I'm going, we're going to California. Knows how to party. So San Francisco Chronicle is my source for this. And I'm also going to shout out a murder sheet source. This is an episode we did with the wonderful Lena, who is an expert in anti-sex trafficking measures. And it's called The Truth About Sex Trafficking. And I think people should give it a listen.

[00:49:52] [SPEAKER_03] One thing I think that's a kind of a thing that happens on the internet is you have a lot of people who will be like, I saw a guy staring at me in a parking lot at Home Depot. I think I almost got sex trafficked. And you always want to just be like, that's not how it works. Like, you are 39 years old. No one is trying to sex traffic you. At worst, that guy was a creep who wanted to, like, abduct and rape and kill you, which is also a very bad thing. But that's not sex trafficking.

[00:50:19] [SPEAKER_03] Sex trafficking is a crime that predominantly features people being groomed by those they know. A boyfriend, a trusted friend. It's usually targeting people who are in poverty. It's usually targeting people who don't have strong social ties, so no one's going to be looking for them.

[00:50:38] [SPEAKER_03] No one is going to pull, for example, Anya Kane into a van to sex traffic me because it would be a whole big thing and the police would be on it because I would be, like, missed. I mean, I'm not trying to brag on myself, but I think you would certainly be concerned. And I'm too old. You know, I'm in my 30s. It's like young, young, young kids. It's young women.

[00:51:03] [SPEAKER_03] It's people who are impoverished and it's people who are essentially they're going to be coerced. They're going to be coerced to go into this, but it's not like the like going from a normal existence to suddenly being forced into sexual slavery. It's it's going to be like they're you know, they're on drugs. They're being manipulated with drugs. They're being manipulated with money. Their passports are taken. Those are the things that we're seeing. But a lot of people don't understand that.

[00:51:32] [SPEAKER_03] A lot of people kind of fancy themselves as being the ultimate prize for the sex traffickers. And I just think that's a shame because you might have met a creep. I'm not trying to disavow anyone's experiences. But by misunderstanding sexual trafficking to that extent, it's like we're really dropping the ball for people who are actually going through it. I think because we're conflating it with something else.

[00:51:53] [SPEAKER_03] In this case, someone named Lindsay Georgiana Hanson, 47 years old, started basically screaming at a man and his daughter. And. I believe this is like September 6th or something. I guess the man, the gentleman in question, described himself as being brown, brown skinned. And his daughter is half white.

[00:52:20] [SPEAKER_03] So she is presumably, therefore, potentially lighter skinned. And what this Hanson woman was doing was basically stalking them around the Guadalupe Creek Trail, Aspen Creek area in San Jose. The father and daughter are out walking. She's riding a bicycle ahead of them. She starts harassing them, repeatedly saying, oh, I think you're trafficking. I want to make sure you're not trafficking this poor little girl that doesn't look like your child.

[00:52:50] [SPEAKER_03] And basically, like to the point where he felt like so uncomfortable, he started filming her doing this and she just wouldn't leave them alone at all. So she's been charged with felony stalking with a hate crime allegation. And it sounds like she's also done this to other people, like was threatening her former employer and her former employer's children. Those are allegations, obviously. But it sounds like there's something really seriously wrong with this person.

[00:53:16] [SPEAKER_03] But I just thought it was interesting because it's like, again, like that's just not how trafficking works and going up to any. But like, I mean, this is just so inappropriate and disgusting as a whole. But a listener recommended that one. And so they were like, I think it's just an interesting point to just be like, we should educate ourselves about what trafficking truly looks like so we can better be equipped to know about it and to help those in need.

[00:53:42] [SPEAKER_03] Versus this, where it's like trafficking has become so pervasive that a clearly like probably mentally ill woman is using it to harass innocent people as they walk around. I think we've done something wrong as a society where it's gotten into the zeitgeist so much that it's just become common parlance like that. So, yeah. So that's California. Thanks to the listener who recommended that one. And thanks. I think we got a Patreon, I think, suggested that one.

[00:54:08] [SPEAKER_03] And I think a Patreon suggested the Pennsylvania one for me. So we always appreciate hearing what you're interested in.

[00:54:15] [SPEAKER_01] And you like to be more discreet. If a listener suggests something and I use it, I just spill the beans.

[00:54:22] [SPEAKER_03] Name, social security number, email.

[00:54:24] [SPEAKER_01] You should keep it on the down low, the right term.

[00:54:28] [SPEAKER_03] DL, yeah.

[00:54:28] [SPEAKER_01] DL.

[00:54:30] [SPEAKER_03] Now I think we're going to Missouri?

[00:54:31] [SPEAKER_01] Yes. My source for this is abovethelaw.com.

[00:54:36] [SPEAKER_03] Oh, this is a wild one. I'm so glad you picked this.

[00:54:38] [SPEAKER_01] I want to say I don't think our dear friends, the listeners, fully understand or appreciate the effort we put into coming up with titles for these and then trying to justify the titles for these episodes. And before we recorded, we struggled to come up with a title for this one. And this title for this episode contains the word rats. Is that correct?

[00:55:07] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah.

[00:55:08] [SPEAKER_01] And this is the story that refers to rats, even though there was no rats in it. And you asked me to subtly weave it in so people could understand. I'm just going to say right at the top, there's a phrase. I'm a gentleman. The last thing I would do is to swear on the program. There's a concept. There's a term called rat effing. Is that correct?

[00:55:35] [SPEAKER_03] Yes.

[00:55:36] [SPEAKER_01] What is this term that gave us the title of this week's exciting episode of The Cheat Sheet?

[00:55:42] [SPEAKER_03] I think it dates back to people who worked in the administration of President Richard Nixon, who I think got the term from some college where they were involved in politics. But rat effing, which is, again, spell out the whole effing word.

[00:55:58] [SPEAKER_01] It's not E-F-F-I-N-G.

[00:56:01] [SPEAKER_03] Nope. So what it refers to is essentially like, I think, acts of like sabotage on a opponent. So, like, you know, I think basically like doing tricks.

[00:56:16] [SPEAKER_01] Let's say, for instance, a listener is coming over for our premium have a dinner with Anya event. Anya's cooking dinner.

[00:56:26] [SPEAKER_03] That's not an event. That's not going to happen.

[00:56:29] [SPEAKER_01] Anya's cooking dinner. And I'm worried that if the dinner is too good, people are going to like Anya more than me. So I like switch the sugar she's going to put in her lemonade with salt. And that makes the listener sick. Would that make me, in that case, would I have rat effed you?

[00:56:46] [SPEAKER_03] I guess you would have. Yeah. I mean, if you read All the President's Men by Carl Bernstein and Bob Woodward, you know, that is, I think, where it kind of has come from, you know, in terms of they describe the different kind of tricks and whatever people will use in politics. And that, you know, we're kind of done by the, I think, the Nixon administration. But it kind of has pervaded. And, yeah, it's like dirty tricks. It's not like fair play.

[00:57:16] [SPEAKER_01] Yes.

[00:57:17] [SPEAKER_03] So, yeah.

[00:57:18] [SPEAKER_01] And obviously, I'm not going to, if a dear listener comes over, I'm not going to put salt in the lemonade you make.

[00:57:24] [SPEAKER_03] No. You better not. And so you'd be sabotaging yourself because we're a team.

[00:57:28] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. That's one of the reasons I'm not going to do it. If I can just sabotage you, no problem. But if it's just, yeah, so no, it's not going to happen. That was just an example. Right. So that's why we call the episode Revolts and Rats. Yeah. So there's no actual rats in this story. No. Which is probably for the best.

[00:57:50] [SPEAKER_03] So what, what, so, okay. Do you want to explain what the rat effing is in this story then?

[00:57:55] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. Yeah. I was just flashing for some reason on Minnie Mouse, which is.

[00:57:59] [SPEAKER_03] He always calls mice rats. He thinks that's funny. He always, like if there's a mouse, oh, the rat. It's like, whatever.

[00:58:07] [SPEAKER_01] There's an old Mad Magazine thing where I think their version of Donald Duck is talking about Minnie Mouse is like a rat with like a lipstick and a dress. And there's something grotesque about that. So whenever I hear about rats, I'm imagining a rat with lipstick. And it's, ugh.

[00:58:27] [SPEAKER_03] What is wrong with you? When I think of rats, I just think of the rats of NIMH.

[00:58:33] [SPEAKER_01] So that's where we're different. That's the difference.

[00:58:36] [SPEAKER_03] I think of erudite scholarly rats who are trying to help a young mouse mother deal with her sick child, Timmy. How do I remember all that? I don't know. But let's move on.

[00:58:47] [SPEAKER_01] So a guy named Thomas Christopher Ross is running for the statehouse as a, for the Republican nomination. He is running against a woman named Louise Secker. He ends up winning the primary by just 32 votes. Turns out prior to the primary, he had what he thought was a great idea.

[00:59:09] [SPEAKER_01] He gives his campaign manager a bag of cocaine and says, here's what you do. You put this in my opponent's vehicle. And then, you know, that they'll make her look bad. So if that's not bad enough and stupid enough, he periodically texts his campaign manager. Hey, have you done this yet? You know, hey.

[00:59:37] [SPEAKER_01] Because, again, great idea if you commit a crime, put it in writing and text about it. So he has been caught and he is facing charges because you can't do that. You can't put cocaine in your political opponent's car. You can't really put cocaine in anybody's car. Nope, don't do it. Don't do it. And so the last I heard, he's under pressure to withdraw from the race.

[01:00:07] [SPEAKER_01] Because I can't imagine the voters of the great state of Missouri would say, hey, this is the guy whose judgment we want making our decisions for us.

[01:00:15] [SPEAKER_03] So we got the progressive Democrats in disarray in Philadelphia. And then we got the Republicans, the old GOP planting cocaine in each other's cars.

[01:00:24] [SPEAKER_01] It's very suspicious to me on a personal level. And I'm just realizing your dark agenda. Because in this episode, the only political party that we have not criticized is the Whigs.

[01:00:40] [SPEAKER_03] The Whigs are coming out strong.

[01:00:42] [SPEAKER_01] I don't think that's a coincidence. I think this is something you plant.

[01:00:45] [SPEAKER_03] The Whigs have not colluded with Innocence Project types. The Whigs have not planted cocaine in anyone's car. And I think...

[01:00:57] [SPEAKER_01] They're just about internal improvements, right?

[01:00:59] [SPEAKER_03] They're just about internal improvements. And I think that's the message I want everyone to take away from this. We should have called it like wigs and whitewashing or something. I don't know. But like, I mean, again, what... In this day and age of like texts and security cameras, what would behoove somebody? This guy must be the dumbest guy possible who did this. Am I wrong? I mean, like, we were talking about the guy who was dumb to confess to murder online.

[01:01:29] [SPEAKER_03] But that guy is probably a lowlife, right? Who like has had a difficult life. I mean, boo-hoo. I mean, good. I'm glad he did. But like, I imagine that guy's like not exactly the brightest bulb. That's why he's murdering kids. But with this, it's like this guy like wants to be a public figure, wants to have political power. And he's so dumb, he's hatching a plot like this and thinking, yeah, I'm going to get away with it. Like nobody's a Columbo villain in the first place.

[01:01:57] [SPEAKER_03] But again, and the stakes are so low. Like what? You lose an election? Okay. Well, at least you're not going to jail. What do you make of this? Do you have any sense of this guy's like character other than this that would prompt someone to do this?

[01:02:11] [SPEAKER_01] I think a lot of people, when you're in the heat of a political campaign, you put a lot more pressure on yourself than is warranted.

[01:02:22] [SPEAKER_03] I've never been in a political campaign.

[01:02:24] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. And every political office is important. I don't mean to diminish it, but a state house seat, that's not worth throwing your life and your reputation away.

[01:02:37] [SPEAKER_03] But like.

[01:02:38] [SPEAKER_01] And when you do something like this, you're always going to get caught. You're always going to get caught. You're not going to get away with this.

[01:02:44] [SPEAKER_03] I mean, I know he used a code language, but like he put this in text too. It wasn't.

[01:02:52] [SPEAKER_02] Yeah.

[01:02:54] [SPEAKER_03] Oh my gosh. Jeez. I don't know. This is. Can I read some of these texts?

[01:03:02] [SPEAKER_01] Please do.

[01:03:03] [SPEAKER_03] We need to resolve that situation sooner than later. June 9th, she will be at the Republican women meeting at Granny Schaffer's. I was hoping that we can make that happen before this Thursday, which would be extreme egg on their face given Thursday night's event. Granny Schaffer will never forgive her for cocaine use. I don't even know.

[01:03:23] [SPEAKER_01] Granny Schaffer. You don't want to alienate Granny Schaffer.

[01:03:25] [SPEAKER_03] A good time would have been while signs were going up. She would have been a ways away from an unlocked car. I mean, again, it's not subtle. I don't know. People are so stupid. You know, I know what. And so he's not dropping out at this point.

[01:03:41] [SPEAKER_01] The last I heard he had not dropped out. I checked right before we started recording. This episode is going out like a couple of weeks from the time we record it. So maybe things are different now.

[01:03:51] [SPEAKER_03] Is he. How's the polls doing now?

[01:03:53] [SPEAKER_01] I haven't seen any polling. I can't imagine he's doing well.

[01:03:56] [SPEAKER_03] I would hope not. And I would hope that, you know, this is a situation like we talked about before. I mean, if it is Missouri Republicans and somehow they get stuck with him as the nominee. Like that's someone with zero integrity. Like I. There's no reason anyone doing this should be anywhere near office.

[01:04:13] [SPEAKER_03] And yeah, regardless of what political party you support, we need to, you know, we need to stop looking at things in such a ideological polarized way that has formed over the Internet and start looking at like, is this person showing any sort of integrity at all? And hopefully he does not get the nomination.

[01:04:33] [SPEAKER_03] Because, again, like if he's really if he's willing to rat F someone who is his, you know, someone who's in his own party, then, you know, like someone who's willing to do stuff like that. I just think integrity is really important. All right. Anything else? Young Kevin.

[01:04:51] [SPEAKER_01] Tiba Canu and Tyler, too.

[01:04:52] [SPEAKER_03] What?

[01:04:53] [SPEAKER_01] Those were. That was a slogan of. I know what it was. It says online. I'm refreshing my memory because apparently.

[01:05:03] [SPEAKER_03] Well, the Wigs got the Wigs got rat F'd out of that deal when Harrison died immediately. And, you know. Left it all to Tyler, the most one of the well, not the most, but certainly an unscrupulous William and Mary graduate.

[01:05:19] [SPEAKER_01] And I got to say this. I've been wondering about in our private life. You've been talking about how you want to renovate and make some changes to the house that baffled me. But it says here the Wigs like to lean heavily into the imagery of log cabin and hard cider. That's what all of your renovations are about. Log cabins and hard cider.

[01:05:39] [SPEAKER_03] I'm an alcoholic. I can't have hard cider anymore.

[01:05:42] [SPEAKER_01] You can have it as an image.

[01:05:44] [SPEAKER_03] I'm holding it in the campaign. Yeah. Yeah. We're going to bring back Tip and Tie. Again, you know, John Tyler did not, you know, did not live up for the Wigs, the Wigs hope. Right.

[01:05:58] [SPEAKER_01] You tell me. No, he didn't. You're the modern wig woman.

[01:06:01] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah, no, I mean, he really ticked off. He was actually called his accidency by the Wigs because they hated him so much by the end of it. And again, I mean, reasonably so. John Tyler was terrible. We're not John Tyler fans in this household. At least I'm not.

[01:06:24] [SPEAKER_01] Yes. As often we've gone. You had a fun fact before.

[01:06:30] [SPEAKER_03] I got a fun fact. I remember my one of my professors at William & Mary. So John Tyler's son was John Gardner. Or no, what was it? Lion Gardner Tyler. Lion Gardner Tyler. That was one of his sons. And he was the 10th president of. I'm sorry. He was. I don't know. He was like up towards the 20s, maybe. I want to say 17th president of the College of William & Mary. He was, I believe, you know, a professor.

[01:07:00] [SPEAKER_03] And he sucked to hated President Lincoln. So screw him. But anyways, the reason I bring him up is that John Tyler got married as an older man to a much younger woman. And then so did Lion Gardner Tyler. So I remember our history professor being like, you know, his John Tyler's grandsons are still alive. And we were like, how does that make any sense? And age gap relationships. And so we were laughing.

[01:07:27] [SPEAKER_03] I think he made a comment of like, oh, those grandsons might like to meet some of you ladies in this class.

[01:07:34] [SPEAKER_01] What was going on at William & Mary?

[01:07:36] [SPEAKER_03] I don't know. A lot of Confederates sympathizing, unfortunately. Not in my era. We put a stop to it by my time. But I mean, when basically your entire class goes to fight for the Confederacy, you know, there's going to be a certain vibe to the environment for many years. And that's certainly, you know. Yeah. But anyways, that's my Lion Gardner Tyler. I mean, that's a great name. Not going to lie. But didn't agree with his views.

[01:08:03] [SPEAKER_01] As always, we've gone far. I apologize.

[01:08:07] [SPEAKER_03] Everyone's gone.

[01:08:08] [SPEAKER_01] I was the one that said, here's an idea. Let's go down this wig path. And then we got through it. And for some reason, I brought it back. You did. So that's on my... This is all on you. Yeah. You set me up.

[01:08:22] [SPEAKER_03] All right. Well, listen, we appreciate you listening and take care.

[01:08:26] [SPEAKER_01] Thanks so much for listening to The Murder Shade. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us at murdersheet at gmail.com. If you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

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[01:09:10] [SPEAKER_01] Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for The Murder Sheet, and who you can find on the web at kevintg.com.

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