The Cheat Sheet: Shining and Spying

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Content warning this episode includes discussion of murder and violence, including the possibility of the murder of a child.

[00:00:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Today on The Cheat Sheet, we're starting out in Arkansas, then we're going to head down to Tennessee and Minnesota and then Kansas.

[00:00:15] [SPEAKER_01]: And a number of these cases are going to be involving interesting stuff from some prosecutors and judges.

[00:00:22] [SPEAKER_01]: My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist.

[00:00:24] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

[00:00:27] [SPEAKER_01]: And this is The Murder Sheet.

[00:00:28] [SPEAKER_00]: We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews and deep dives into murder cases.

[00:00:35] [SPEAKER_00]: We're The Murder Sheet.

[00:00:37] [SPEAKER_01]: And this is The Cheat Sheet. Shining and Spying.

[00:01:25] [SPEAKER_01]: So for this first case, our source is 5 News.

[00:01:30] [SPEAKER_01]: And that was basically a live broadcast of a press conference out of Alma, Arkansas.

[00:01:37] [SPEAKER_01]: And this is the case of six year old Morgan Nick.

[00:01:42] [SPEAKER_01]: This is this is an awful case. I mean, this is just I mean, the term in true crime, every parent's worst nightmare gets certainly thrown around a lot.

[00:01:52] [SPEAKER_01]: But this really seems like it fits the bill on this.

[00:01:55] [SPEAKER_01]: You have a six year old little girl at a little league baseball game in Arkansas.

[00:02:03] [SPEAKER_01]: She goes off with her friends to catch fireflies that night.

[00:02:08] [SPEAKER_01]: It's about 10 45 PM.

[00:02:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Her friends see a creepy man talking to her in the parking lot.

[00:02:15] [SPEAKER_01]: They leave.

[00:02:17] [SPEAKER_01]: They tell her mother, Colleen, that Morgan was at her car.

[00:02:21] [SPEAKER_01]: But when she gets there, she's gone and she's never found.

[00:02:26] [SPEAKER_01]: So she was obviously abducted.

[00:02:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Tips have come in over the years and many different law enforcement agencies have helped with this case.

[00:02:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Alma Police Department, the LaFleur County Sheriff's Office, Federal Bureau of Investigation.

[00:02:41] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, you have local state federal resources going into it, Arkansas State Police.

[00:02:48] [SPEAKER_01]: But one thing that came up a lot was a red pickup truck, especially early on.

[00:02:53] [SPEAKER_01]: So red pickup truck seen in the area.

[00:02:56] [SPEAKER_01]: There was some kind of suspect description in addition to that.

[00:03:02] [SPEAKER_01]: And then in 2021, we finally got a name.

[00:03:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Billy Jack links was named as a person of interest.

[00:03:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Now he is long dead.

[00:03:10] [SPEAKER_01]: He died in prison in 2000.

[00:03:15] [SPEAKER_01]: And he was a Crawford County native who served in World War Two, lived in Texas, then retired and moved up to Arkansas.

[00:03:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Basically eight miles away from where Morgan was abducted shortly after her disappearance, he was caught trying to lure an 11 year old girl into his red pickup truck.

[00:03:37] [SPEAKER_01]: And so he went to prison for that.

[00:03:38] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's why he was in prison in 2000 where he died.

[00:03:43] [SPEAKER_01]: So the recent press conference came about and was led by chief of Alma police, Jeff Poynter.

[00:03:50] [SPEAKER_01]: And the significant development is that they explained reasons why links is now the prime suspect, the main person they're going to be looking at for here on out.

[00:04:02] [SPEAKER_00]: What were those reasons?

[00:04:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, this pointer kind of took us through the reasoning.

[00:04:08] [SPEAKER_01]: So, again, Billy Jack links was arrested on August 29th, 1995.

[00:04:15] [SPEAKER_01]: His his other abduction occurred in Van Buren, Arkansas.

[00:04:19] [SPEAKER_01]: He was questioned August 31st, 1995, and asked specifically about Morgan Nick and whether he had anything to do with her disappearance.

[00:04:28] [SPEAKER_01]: And at the time he said no.

[00:04:30] [SPEAKER_01]: And all that was said by Poynter at this press conference is that investigators believed to me, believed him to be truthful and they moved on.

[00:04:38] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't.

[00:04:39] [SPEAKER_01]: A lot of people have expressed frustration about this.

[00:04:41] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know what that means.

[00:04:43] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know whether they just found him candid or if they like did a polygraph test and he passed.

[00:04:48] [SPEAKER_01]: I I have no idea.

[00:04:50] [SPEAKER_01]: But either way, they've they've since changed their minds on this.

[00:04:54] [SPEAKER_01]: So in July 2019, Alma police detective, Lieutenant Brett Hartley.

[00:05:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Reviewed the case from the beginning.

[00:05:03] [SPEAKER_01]: So went all the way back to 1995, looked at everything and also interviewed someone that inspired him as the as Poynter said to go back to links and look at him really hard.

[00:05:14] [SPEAKER_01]: They were able to get a hold of links is old truck.

[00:05:17] [SPEAKER_01]: This this red pickup truck, which is remarkable given how old this case is, but it apparently had been sold.

[00:05:24] [SPEAKER_01]: The person who owned it recently had no idea anything about this links connection and gave law enforcement permission to vacuum it, collect up all the evidence.

[00:05:35] [SPEAKER_01]: So the FBI's evidence response team came out July 28th, 2020, vacuumed the whole vehicle, found hair.

[00:05:44] [SPEAKER_01]: And from there, you know, they had these kind of vacuum containers with all this possible evidence in it.

[00:05:50] [SPEAKER_01]: But what do you do with that?

[00:05:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Obviously, there was nothing that was like super conclusive.

[00:05:56] [SPEAKER_01]: But as we know, technology is always getting better in terms of how places extract DNA from things.

[00:06:03] [SPEAKER_01]: So Detective Sean Taylor of Alma got the idea that they should go to Othram.

[00:06:08] [SPEAKER_01]: And this, of course, is a company that deals with some of those cases where they're extracting DNA, even in tough situations where it's like not the best or it's degraded or whatnot, which obviously would be in this case, given how I mean this happened in the 90s.

[00:06:22] [SPEAKER_01]: And we're talking about the early 2020s here.

[00:06:24] [SPEAKER_01]: So Detective Taylor, an FBI agent, went to Othram.

[00:06:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Arkansas State Police provided funding for this.

[00:06:31] [SPEAKER_01]: And Othram found a hair.

[00:06:34] [SPEAKER_01]: They were able to analyze and determine that it had to either belong to Colleen Nick, one of her siblings or one of her children.

[00:06:43] [SPEAKER_01]: So the Nicks did not know Billy Jack Lynx whatsoever.

[00:06:48] [SPEAKER_01]: So if they don't know them and there's someone, you know, a hair belonging to a Nick relative in the car.

[00:06:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Morgan Nick was in that car.

[00:07:00] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's what they determined.

[00:07:02] [SPEAKER_01]: They found a couple of hairs, but only one produced.

[00:07:05] [SPEAKER_01]: They were able to extract that from.

[00:07:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Right now, Morgan Nick is still not home.

[00:07:11] [SPEAKER_01]: She's not been found.

[00:07:12] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I think I hate to be negative, but it seems likely that she was abducted and murdered.

[00:07:20] [SPEAKER_01]: But her family still wants to know what happened to her where she is now.

[00:07:24] [SPEAKER_01]: So what the reason this press conference happened is because they need the public's help.

[00:07:29] [SPEAKER_01]: They need to know they need to hear from links associates, people who knew him, maybe people who worked with him.

[00:07:37] [SPEAKER_01]: It sounds like some family members of his in the area have been cooperating with law enforcement, but they need more.

[00:07:44] [SPEAKER_01]: They need to know what this guy was doing back then, information about him, biographical information.

[00:07:50] [SPEAKER_01]: And they will be continuing to focus on him as a suspect going forward.

[00:07:56] [SPEAKER_01]: They want to know also, did he have any help hiding Morgan, kidnapping Morgan, any of these things.

[00:08:03] [SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, just I guess if you have family in this part of Arkansas or who you think just might know someone in that part of Arkansas, spread the word to them.

[00:08:16] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, like we'll include links for you to share.

[00:08:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Like we need this man didn't just float through life knowing no one.

[00:08:25] [SPEAKER_01]: He may have said something to somebody.

[00:08:27] [SPEAKER_01]: He may have he may have said something that seemed totally innocuous at the time that may actually have more relevance and more meaning now.

[00:08:37] [SPEAKER_01]: So we need to get people talking about this.

[00:08:39] [SPEAKER_01]: We need to be excavating this person.

[00:08:42] [SPEAKER_01]: He's dead.

[00:08:43] [SPEAKER_01]: He he's not going to be any help.

[00:08:45] [SPEAKER_01]: He's not going to have any use to anybody.

[00:08:47] [SPEAKER_01]: But.

[00:08:49] [SPEAKER_01]: People who knew him may still be living and they can possibly provide answers here.

[00:08:54] [SPEAKER_01]: And one thing that really broke my heart was Colleen Nick then came out and and talked.

[00:09:01] [SPEAKER_01]: And this was a quote from her.

[00:09:03] [SPEAKER_01]: So, quote, what I have to say about Billy Jack links is that he stole Morgan from me.

[00:09:08] [SPEAKER_01]: He stole her from her dad and he stole her from Logan and Taryn.

[00:09:11] [SPEAKER_01]: But he didn't see that he can never win because our love for Morgan, her memory and her voice outlasted his life.

[00:09:17] [SPEAKER_01]: And that love continues to shine.

[00:09:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Her heart.

[00:09:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Morgan's heart shines on.

[00:09:23] [SPEAKER_01]: End quote.

[00:09:26] [SPEAKER_01]: I think child predators are the lowest of the low.

[00:09:29] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's hard.

[00:09:33] [SPEAKER_01]: It's it's it's it's it's hard to think that there are people like that out there that would do this to a family and this to a child.

[00:09:41] [SPEAKER_01]: But unfortunately, that is the world that we live in.

[00:09:44] [SPEAKER_01]: And I, I will say that Colleen Nick and her her supporters have done a lot of good for the families of missing children through the Morgan Nick Foundation.

[00:09:57] [SPEAKER_01]: They've done a lot of work for other families.

[00:09:59] [SPEAKER_01]: So I really hope that they are able to get answers and that investigators who have been working hard on this will be able to get answers for them in this new phase of the investigation.

[00:10:10] [SPEAKER_01]: But all this happened October 1st, 2024.

[00:10:15] [SPEAKER_01]: That's when the press conference was.

[00:10:16] [SPEAKER_01]: So hopefully this means that, you know, answers could be possible in the future.

[00:10:21] [SPEAKER_00]: I certainly hope so.

[00:10:24] [SPEAKER_00]: So I'd like to move on and talk about something that is going on in the great state of Minnesota.

[00:10:30] [SPEAKER_00]: And my sources for this are Fox nine in the Minnesota reformer dot com.

[00:10:35] [SPEAKER_00]: Before I get into this, Anya, can you give us a brief reminder when people talk about felony murder?

[00:10:43] [SPEAKER_00]: What does that mean?

[00:10:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I'm not going to be able to do a very good legal definition because I am not an attorney.

[00:10:50] [SPEAKER_01]: But my understanding is that felony murder means that when you are when one is committing a felony and someone that is inherently dangerous and someone dies as a result of that felony, then you can be charged with murder.

[00:11:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Even if, you know, let's say you're not the one who directly caused the homicide.

[00:11:09] [SPEAKER_01]: So if Kevin and I decide to hold up a cereal factory and in the course of our madcap scheme, someone is tragically killed, then we even if I'm the trigger man, Kevin could be held responsible and charged with felony murder because he was participating in a felony when I was committing that additional murder.

[00:11:30] [SPEAKER_00]: A lot of people have problems with that idea.

[00:11:33] [SPEAKER_00]: They don't think it's fair or just in the situation you just described.

[00:11:38] [SPEAKER_00]: A lot of people were thinking wouldn't be fair for me to be charged with murder since you were the trigger person.

[00:11:43] [SPEAKER_00]: Before I get into Minnesota, I'm just curious.

[00:11:46] [SPEAKER_00]: What do you think of the felony murder?

[00:11:48] [SPEAKER_01]: I think if you've made such poor life choices that you're participating in a felony and someone gets hurt as a result of your bad actions, even if you're not directly responsible, I don't have a problem with you getting charged.

[00:11:59] [SPEAKER_01]: I also think in some cases it can be a helpful bargaining chip.

[00:12:02] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, you're going to get hit with felony murder.

[00:12:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe if you cooperate, maybe you get a lesser charge.

[00:12:08] [SPEAKER_01]: So I don't have a problem with it.

[00:12:09] [SPEAKER_01]: I think in some cases I could totally see it being completely misused.

[00:12:13] [SPEAKER_01]: But you can say that about a lot of things.

[00:12:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that is true.

[00:12:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Fundamentally, I think it's fair.

[00:12:20] [SPEAKER_01]: I think genuinely or generally I should say it can be a fair thing because, you know, like it's kind of this, oh, well, I didn't intend for this to happen.

[00:12:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, you know, but you created the circumstances for it to happen.

[00:12:35] [SPEAKER_01]: So, yeah, I don't have a huge problem with it unless it's maybe really stretched to the limit.

[00:12:40] [SPEAKER_00]: And in the past, I've had many conversations with some judges and some prosecutors.

[00:12:48] [SPEAKER_00]: We've had similar conversations with them.

[00:12:50] [SPEAKER_00]: And one thing they say, not so much about this law in particular, but generally judges and prosecutors like it if they have a lot of flexibility.

[00:13:01] [SPEAKER_00]: They don't necessarily want to do things just a certain way because the legislature has tied their hands and made them do it.

[00:13:09] [SPEAKER_00]: So something like felony murder could potentially give a prosecutor some flexibility in what charges to bring.

[00:13:18] [SPEAKER_00]: And you would hope that if a prosecutor overcharges somebody and it's something that shocks the conscience and you shouldn't be charging this person with felony murder, you would hope that he wouldn't get the verdict he would want.

[00:13:31] [SPEAKER_00]: So the reason I bring all of this up is that the Minnesota has recently changed their laws.

[00:13:40] [SPEAKER_00]: So the laws pertaining to felony murder.

[00:13:43] [SPEAKER_00]: So now you can no longer be charged with murder if you're aiding and abetting a felony unless you use a deadly weapon or cause substantial bodily harm or if you've hired the killer or if you actively stop another person from preventing the death.

[00:14:06] [SPEAKER_00]: So basically it does away with a whole category of felony type murders.

[00:14:12] [SPEAKER_00]: And not only that, but the law applies retroactively.

[00:14:18] [SPEAKER_00]: So that means that if you got charged with felony murder and were convicted of felony murder five, 10, however many years ago, you can potentially say, no, this no longer applies to me.

[00:14:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Charge me with something else.

[00:14:33] [SPEAKER_00]: And so that's also beginning to happen in Minnesota.

[00:14:37] [SPEAKER_01]: That sounds like a mess.

[00:14:38] [SPEAKER_00]: In particular, a woman named Rosalind McDonald Richards.

[00:14:42] [SPEAKER_00]: She was convicted of aiding and abetting a first degree murder.

[00:14:47] [SPEAKER_00]: In that case, it was a murder that happened at a pawn shop during a robbery.

[00:14:55] [SPEAKER_00]: Ms. McDonald Richards drove her boyfriend and a friend of his to the pawn shop.

[00:15:02] [SPEAKER_00]: She stayed in the car.

[00:15:04] [SPEAKER_00]: They robbed the pawn shop, committed the murder.

[00:15:07] [SPEAKER_00]: They come out and she is their getaway driver.

[00:15:10] [SPEAKER_00]: And she knew that they were going to do that.

[00:15:12] [SPEAKER_00]: But now they're saying no.

[00:15:15] [SPEAKER_00]: And they've reduced her charges.

[00:15:16] [SPEAKER_00]: And she has now gone free.

[00:15:19] [SPEAKER_00]: And there's other cases where that's happening.

[00:15:22] [SPEAKER_00]: And so prosecutors in Minnesota are unhappy about this.

[00:15:28] [SPEAKER_00]: And certainly some victims of, certainly relatives of victims of murders, of some of these murders are also unhappy.

[00:15:38] [SPEAKER_00]: So it's an interesting situation.

[00:15:41] [SPEAKER_00]: I think it would be very interesting to see how this continues to progress in Minnesota.

[00:15:50] [SPEAKER_00]: It's kind of a cliche.

[00:15:52] [SPEAKER_00]: But because America has 50 states, some of those states can be laboratories.

[00:15:57] [SPEAKER_00]: And we can basically do away with the concept of felony murder in Minnesota and see what happens.

[00:16:05] [SPEAKER_00]: And if it turns out to be a disaster that brings chaos and unhappiness, maybe we don't do it in other states.

[00:16:13] [SPEAKER_00]: But if it ends up bringing more justice and seems to go smoothly, maybe other states should think about adopting it.

[00:16:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, obviously.

[00:16:21] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, if it works out.

[00:16:23] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't really know how you'd measure that, though.

[00:16:25] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I don't.

[00:16:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:16:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I see what you mean.

[00:16:30] [SPEAKER_01]: But most of that would just be anecdotal.

[00:16:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:16:32] [SPEAKER_01]: It wouldn't.

[00:16:33] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, which can be very well manipulated.

[00:16:35] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm curious.

[00:16:36] [SPEAKER_01]: What do you think?

[00:16:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Do you think felony murder goes too far in many cases?

[00:16:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Do you think it's generally fair?

[00:16:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Do you think it just depends?

[00:16:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Do you think this is a terrible idea, a great idea or somewhere in the middle?

[00:16:48] [SPEAKER_00]: I think it's somewhere in the middle.

[00:16:49] [SPEAKER_00]: So I like the idea of judges and prosecutors having flexibility.

[00:16:53] [SPEAKER_00]: I think it wouldn't be difficult for us to imagine cases where felony murder is charged and it's unjust.

[00:17:00] [SPEAKER_01]: I agree.

[00:17:01] [SPEAKER_01]: I agree with that.

[00:17:03] [SPEAKER_00]: And.

[00:17:05] [SPEAKER_00]: And I also I think it's very easy for us to look at cases where felony murder was charged and it was a thousand percent the right thing to do.

[00:17:13] [SPEAKER_00]: And so I don't want to permanently enshrine something that sometimes has awful results.

[00:17:20] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't want to permanently take it away when there's sometimes it has appropriate results.

[00:17:26] [SPEAKER_00]: My inclination is this might go a little bit too far, but I'm prepared to wait and see what happens.

[00:17:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think we see what happens.

[00:17:34] [SPEAKER_01]: I think it goes too far.

[00:17:36] [SPEAKER_01]: I think removing it as a an option like that, you know, except in some very limited cases seems excessive.

[00:17:43] [SPEAKER_01]: But perhaps I mean, and I don't know the context of this.

[00:17:47] [SPEAKER_01]: It's possible that in Minnesota there's been some really egregious violations where prosecutors have overstretched and ended up railroading people based on very like minimal felony murder things.

[00:18:01] [SPEAKER_01]: So, I mean, it's possible that this is a reaction to that and they're saying, well, we can't let that happen anymore, which is what would be fair.

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[00:19:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Should we go over to Tennessee?

[00:19:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[00:19:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Traveling south.

[00:20:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[00:20:01] [SPEAKER_00]: And a source for this came from the Tennessean and the Nashville Post.

[00:20:06] [SPEAKER_01]: So I said this earlier, but to you off the record, but I said your first one is prosecutors being mad.

[00:20:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Now maybe it's a little bit of possibly prosecutors being bad.

[00:20:17] [SPEAKER_00]: I think there's really no question about that.

[00:20:19] [SPEAKER_00]: This is a crazy situation that is kind of a little difficult to believe is true, but it is.

[00:20:29] [SPEAKER_00]: So the Davidson County District Attorney, National DA Glenn Funk, his office has been secretly recording conversations that occur at his office.

[00:20:46] [SPEAKER_00]: And when I say his office, that doesn't mean like, oh, if you go in and you talk to him, that's being recorded.

[00:20:53] [SPEAKER_00]: It's the recording is more widespread than that.

[00:20:57] [SPEAKER_00]: And recording was even done in a room where defense attorneys would go to look at exhibits in cases involving their clients.

[00:21:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Because as I'm sure you all understand, sometimes it's not possible just from a practical point of view to give the actual exhibits in a criminal case to the defense attorney.

[00:21:22] [SPEAKER_00]: It makes more sense for them to come and examine it in person at the prosecutor's office.

[00:21:27] [SPEAKER_00]: And so in Nashville, there's a particular room set aside for this.

[00:21:31] [SPEAKER_00]: And defense attorneys would come in and they would look at these exhibits.

[00:21:37] [SPEAKER_00]: And on occasion, I imagine, they would say, oh, here's what I think about this exhibit.

[00:21:43] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, here's how we could handle this.

[00:21:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Or what do you think about this?

[00:21:46] [SPEAKER_00]: In other words, they would basically be discussing trial strategy about how they might handle those exhibits.

[00:21:52] [SPEAKER_00]: And all of that was recorded by the prosecutor for no clear reason.

[00:22:00] [SPEAKER_00]: And the arguments being made are that, well, people knew they were being video recorded.

[00:22:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Obviously, there's a difference between being video recorded and being audio recorded if you're having conversations.

[00:22:12] [SPEAKER_00]: And the other argument is, well, there's no expectation of privacy in a government office.

[00:22:21] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not sure how compelling I find that.

[00:22:25] [SPEAKER_00]: If I'm in a room where defense or if I'm in a room where trial exhibits are being kept, and I'm not in Franklin, Indiana,

[00:22:37] [SPEAKER_00]: I assume that that room is secure.

[00:22:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Would you agree with that?

[00:22:44] [SPEAKER_01]: I went over my head for a second.

[00:22:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, no, I do.

[00:22:47] [SPEAKER_01]: I do.

[00:22:48] [SPEAKER_01]: I would assume that.

[00:22:50] [SPEAKER_00]: So that is very troubling to me.

[00:22:55] [SPEAKER_00]: And they try to say, well, we did have a sign up warning people about this recording.

[00:23:03] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm quoting now, investigators found only a single three-inch sticker near the bottom of one door,

[00:23:11] [SPEAKER_00]: which the report notes would likely be misdue its obscure placement.

[00:23:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, no.

[00:23:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Because see, when you said that there's a sign, I was kind of like, well, maybe that is a skill issue for these defense attorneys.

[00:23:21] [SPEAKER_01]: But not if it's at the bottom of a door.

[00:23:25] [SPEAKER_01]: That's not where you put something like that.

[00:23:28] [SPEAKER_00]: So I find this troubling.

[00:23:31] [SPEAKER_00]: The attorney general in Tennessee doesn't seem to be doing much about it because they think, well, no crime was committed.

[00:23:37] [SPEAKER_00]: But certainly if I'm a defense attorney, I would be concerned.

[00:23:43] [SPEAKER_00]: If I went up against this DA and I had lost a case, I would be concerned.

[00:23:48] [SPEAKER_00]: Did I lose this case on the merits or did I lose this case because the DA basically cheated and recorded me talking about exhibits and used that to his own advantage?

[00:24:00] [SPEAKER_00]: There's no evidence that the DA did do that.

[00:24:04] [SPEAKER_00]: But I think it's a plausible thing to wonder.

[00:24:07] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think there should probably be a more substantial investigation of this.

[00:24:13] [SPEAKER_00]: What are your thoughts about this bizarre affair?

[00:24:16] [SPEAKER_01]: On the one hand, it's hard to imagine the DA dedicating all those resources to combing through.

[00:24:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Because this is just strictly from an audio perspective.

[00:24:27] [SPEAKER_01]: You and I gather a lot of audio in our jobs.

[00:24:30] [SPEAKER_01]: And actually sitting through and going through all of it can be difficult.

[00:24:33] [SPEAKER_01]: And those are interviews that we've planned and know we're recording.

[00:24:38] [SPEAKER_00]: And the person we're talking to knows they're being recorded.

[00:24:40] [SPEAKER_01]: And the person we're talking to knows they're being recorded.

[00:24:42] [SPEAKER_01]: These are scheduled interviews where everyone knows they're being recorded.

[00:24:45] [SPEAKER_01]: But when it comes to something like this, how do you keep track of, oh, these guys are coming in so we can spy on them for this case?

[00:24:51] [SPEAKER_01]: But on the other hand, yes, there should be a substantial investigation, a more substantial investigation.

[00:24:57] [SPEAKER_01]: No stone should be left unturned because even if that just happens once, that's unacceptable.

[00:25:04] [SPEAKER_01]: That's a scandal.

[00:25:06] [SPEAKER_01]: They need to get to the bottom of that to ensure that didn't happen.

[00:25:09] [SPEAKER_01]: And none of these defendants were essentially cheated out of a fair trial.

[00:25:15] [SPEAKER_01]: So, yeah, I completely agree with you.

[00:25:17] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, again, like I'm not saying that that's what was happening.

[00:25:19] [SPEAKER_01]: But again, even if it only happened one time, that's very concerning.

[00:25:24] [SPEAKER_01]: And also, I mean, that that undermines.

[00:25:27] [SPEAKER_01]: I would I mean, again, I know I know in some cases prosecutors and defense attorneys get along OK.

[00:25:33] [SPEAKER_01]: In other cases, they hate each other.

[00:25:34] [SPEAKER_01]: But either way, like, you know, defense attorneys are often up against a lot.

[00:25:41] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, oftentimes their clients are guilty.

[00:25:43] [SPEAKER_01]: That's what they're up against.

[00:25:44] [SPEAKER_01]: But in other cases, you know, they don't have the resources.

[00:25:47] [SPEAKER_01]: They don't have the same kind of support.

[00:25:50] [SPEAKER_01]: And to think that you're going up against a prosecutor where there's also that going on.

[00:25:55] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that's just that really undermines, I think, a lot of the I don't know, like what, you know, any sort of it's troubling.

[00:26:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:26:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I would feel like, wow, this is really rigged, you know, like, you know, being in a situation like that.

[00:26:07] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I'm sure the defense bar in Tennessee is just totally up in arms about this.

[00:26:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[00:26:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:26:13] [SPEAKER_00]: How could they not be?

[00:26:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, this is I mean, this is nuts.

[00:26:16] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I've never you know, we've talked about like in Delphi case, it came up like filming defense attorneys in a prison and like kind of seemed like, well, in a prison or a jail when there's a safety issue and audio is not being recorded.

[00:26:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe there's some kind of, you know, it's controversial, but maybe there's some kind of debate back and forth.

[00:26:34] [SPEAKER_01]: But have they given any sort of indication of why they were doing this?

[00:26:39] [SPEAKER_00]: It's unclear.

[00:26:40] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'll tell you that this investigation was done by the state comptroller, Jason Mumpower, and he actually thinks there should be a special prosecutor appointed to determine if there was any real wrongdoing here, if there's any laws violated.

[00:26:57] [SPEAKER_00]: And he says, quote, there is absolutely no harm in the D.A. recusing himself and asking for a district attorney to go look at the evidence if he thinks he has not committed a crime.

[00:27:09] [SPEAKER_00]: And if you if you think you've not committed a crime, I think that you should do this because it certainly looks awful.

[00:27:16] [SPEAKER_01]: It restore trust, restore trust.

[00:27:19] [SPEAKER_01]: That's an opportunity to restore trust.

[00:27:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe it's a mistake.

[00:27:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe nothing bad happened as a result of this.

[00:27:23] [SPEAKER_01]: But then you restore trust by by allowing in outsiders to look at what you what you're doing.

[00:27:28] [SPEAKER_01]: That's very concerning that he's not doing that.

[00:27:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Is that the case?

[00:27:30] [SPEAKER_01]: He's not doing that right now.

[00:27:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Last time I checked, he's not doing that.

[00:27:34] [SPEAKER_01]: OK, and we're recording on October 2nd.

[00:27:37] [SPEAKER_00]: So we're recording recording this in advance.

[00:27:39] [SPEAKER_00]: And we're alluded to that again in a few minutes.

[00:27:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but that that's very concerning.

[00:27:43] [SPEAKER_01]: And so like, OK, I'm just trying to wrap my head around this.

[00:27:46] [SPEAKER_01]: So but like nothing's going to happen now because basically the person who's being accused of doing something bad, the prosecutor in this case is just like, well.

[00:27:56] [SPEAKER_00]: And the attorney general of the state says he doesn't feel there's evidence that an actual crime has been committed.

[00:28:03] [SPEAKER_01]: I think if it if it's like it's not a one time incident, it's a pattern of behavior.

[00:28:07] [SPEAKER_01]: So how would you know unless you actually really dug into it?

[00:28:11] Yeah.

[00:28:13] [SPEAKER_00]: If I were a defense attorney in Tennessee, if I were a criminal defendant who had been convicted by this man's office, I would have some pretty serious concerns.

[00:28:24] [SPEAKER_00]: And I have a lot of questions I'd want to have answered.

[00:28:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:28:28] [SPEAKER_01]: And again, I like I think you and I, we tend to be boring.

[00:28:32] [SPEAKER_01]: We tend to be the boring thing.

[00:28:33] [SPEAKER_01]: The boring thing is that they didn't do anything with this and it was just running and no one ever paid attention to it.

[00:28:37] [SPEAKER_01]: But it behooves them to show that through an investigation.

[00:28:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:28:41] [SPEAKER_01]: So that everything so that some level of trust can be restored and everyone can be assured that no crimes were committed and nothing bad was happening.

[00:28:49] [SPEAKER_01]: So that's concerning that that's not going on.

[00:28:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Transparency is something that we should expect from our public officials.

[00:28:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Not it's not like, oh, please, can I maybe know that in this case?

[00:29:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Transparency.

[00:29:04] [SPEAKER_01]: That's the only way out.

[00:29:05] [SPEAKER_01]: And the fact that they're not doing that is disturbing.

[00:29:08] [SPEAKER_00]: So let's move on quickly to the great state of Kansas.

[00:29:12] [SPEAKER_00]: And my source for this was the Kansas Reflector.

[00:29:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Those of you who are parents, maybe you can relate to this a bit.

[00:29:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Have you ever had a situation where your child like repeatedly asks for something that you know isn't going to go well?

[00:29:31] [SPEAKER_00]: And then finally you say no, no, no.

[00:29:34] [SPEAKER_00]: And he finally just wears you down and you just get annoyed and said, fine, do it.

[00:29:38] [SPEAKER_00]: And then the child does it and it doesn't go well.

[00:29:41] [SPEAKER_00]: And you're like, well, I told you so.

[00:29:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, judges in cases can sometimes fall prey to those sorts of things as well.

[00:29:54] [SPEAKER_00]: This case involves a judge named Trish Rose and a defendant named Brennan Trass.

[00:30:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Mr. Trass was accused of shooting to death Jose Morales during a 2015 drug deal.

[00:30:11] [SPEAKER_00]: And since then, he's been arrested, of course.

[00:30:15] [SPEAKER_00]: And he has had not one, not two, not three, not four, not five, not six, not seven, not eight, not nine, not ten,

[00:30:22] [SPEAKER_00]: but 11 different attorneys assigned to defend him at various times.

[00:30:29] [SPEAKER_00]: And because he would clash with them or there would be possible conflicts,

[00:30:35] [SPEAKER_00]: all 11 of those attorneys were let go.

[00:30:40] [SPEAKER_00]: And so the judge in the case basically said at some point, you've caused so much trouble.

[00:30:46] [SPEAKER_00]: I think you basically you've just surrendered your right to have an appointed counsel.

[00:30:51] [SPEAKER_00]: You're just going to represent yourself.

[00:30:52] [SPEAKER_00]: And so he represented himself and he lost.

[00:30:55] [SPEAKER_00]: And so it turns out you can't do that.

[00:30:58] [SPEAKER_01]: No, I was going to say you can't do that.

[00:31:00] [SPEAKER_01]: You can't surrender your constitution.

[00:31:02] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, right.

[00:31:03] [SPEAKER_00]: Like if even if you're annoying, you don't lose your constitutional rights, which is something that Ani and I are very grateful for.

[00:31:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[00:31:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Annoying people have rights to.

[00:31:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[00:31:18] [SPEAKER_01]: We're going to have a march with picket signs.

[00:31:21] [SPEAKER_00]: So there's going to be a new trial in this case.

[00:31:25] [SPEAKER_01]: That's ridiculous.

[00:31:26] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I can understand the judge on a human level there.

[00:31:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[00:31:29] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, like I can like you just like this guy just sucks and is just constantly causing problems.

[00:31:34] [SPEAKER_01]: But that doesn't matter.

[00:31:35] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's kind of your job as the judge to be like, hold the line and make sure that things run smoothly.

[00:31:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Again, you can understand it from a human level because it's like, wow, OK, no one's good enough for you.

[00:31:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Let's see how you do.

[00:31:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Because you also get this with like, you know, a defendant who is has, you know, personality issues or, you know, is super arrogant.

[00:31:54] [SPEAKER_01]: They might be like, I can do this better than anyone else.

[00:31:57] [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm sure that's annoying for lawyers, you know, defense attorneys who've gone to law school and have trained and done all the work.

[00:32:03] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's like suddenly you're being told by someone who's, you know, on trial for murder that suddenly, you know, they're the smart one and they're going to make better decisions in the situation than you are.

[00:32:12] [SPEAKER_01]: But, you know, you would hope that the judge and attorneys in that situation would kind of just deal with that and try to do their best anyway.

[00:32:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.

[00:32:21] [SPEAKER_00]: I hate to end the program on a bit of a downer, but one thing we often hear is people say, oh, we listen to The Murder Sheet.

[00:32:31] [SPEAKER_00]: And yes, you have, you know, intelligent, thoughtful analysis of issues going on in true crime.

[00:32:38] [SPEAKER_00]: And yes, you have terrific interviews with fascinating people.

[00:32:42] [SPEAKER_00]: And yes, you've exposed us to authors of really great books.

[00:32:46] [SPEAKER_00]: But we're willing to put up with all of that.

[00:32:48] [SPEAKER_00]: But what we really like, what we really listen for, what we really crave are the T-shirt ads.

[00:32:54] [SPEAKER_00]: And the bad news is, is it looks like the T-shirt ads are going to go on a temporary hiatus.

[00:33:01] [SPEAKER_00]: And the reason for that is we're recording this on October 2nd, as Anya mentioned.

[00:33:07] [SPEAKER_00]: You're hearing this like a week from now.

[00:33:09] [SPEAKER_00]: And if when you're hearing this, the trial in the Delphi case is scheduled to start within a couple of days.

[00:33:16] [SPEAKER_00]: And we are going to do our best to do a podcast about each day of the trial.

[00:33:23] [SPEAKER_00]: And that means that there's not going to be cheat sheets for that duration.

[00:33:29] [SPEAKER_00]: We're not going to do our Patreon lives during that duration.

[00:33:31] [SPEAKER_00]: And because there's no cheat sheets, we won't be doing the T-shirt ads during that duration.

[00:33:38] [SPEAKER_00]: If we have any T-shirts remaining, when we get back, we'll certainly start doing the T-shirt ads again.

[00:33:45] [SPEAKER_01]: We almost certainly will.

[00:33:46] [SPEAKER_01]: No, no, play along.

[00:33:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, sorry.

[00:33:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, scarcity.

[00:33:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Buy the shirts now.

[00:33:52] [SPEAKER_00]: Because, you know, one thing that I like to imagine many people wonder, why do you sell these wonderful shirts, these stylish shirts, these life-changing shirts?

[00:34:05] [SPEAKER_00]: Why do you sell them so inexpensively?

[00:34:08] [SPEAKER_00]: And the reason for that is because Anya and I are a two-person operation.

[00:34:12] [SPEAKER_00]: We don't have millions of employees sending the shirts out.

[00:34:17] [SPEAKER_00]: We keep them in our special climate-controlled vault at our residence.

[00:34:23] [SPEAKER_00]: And we get an order.

[00:34:25] [SPEAKER_00]: We put it in an envelope, and we send it out pretty quickly.

[00:34:30] [SPEAKER_00]: Now, if you want, if you're worried, and maybe you should be, if you're worried, you know, gosh, Christmas is coming up.

[00:34:40] [SPEAKER_00]: I want to get my order in to guarantee that I will definitely get a shirt.

[00:34:45] [SPEAKER_00]: By all means, go ahead and order a shirt.

[00:34:51] [SPEAKER_00]: Order dozens of shirts.

[00:34:52] [SPEAKER_00]: That way there will be a lot of happy faces around the Christmas tree on Christmas morning.

[00:35:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Don't you think so?

[00:35:01] [SPEAKER_00]: You can put a shirt in a Christmas stocking.

[00:35:04] [SPEAKER_00]: But just keep in mind that because we're going to be at the trial, we're not going to be able to send out the shirts as quickly as we typically would.

[00:35:15] [SPEAKER_01]: So this ad is just to promise bad service?

[00:35:19] [SPEAKER_01]: No.

[00:35:20] [SPEAKER_01]: And you said my ad last week was found?

[00:35:22] [SPEAKER_00]: No, I'm saying go to murdersheetshop.com and guarantee that you will have a shirt.

[00:35:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Because who knows?

[00:35:30] [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe within a month, all those shirts will be gone.

[00:35:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe we'll become so popular through our trial broadcast, you're saying, that there'll be like a run on the shirts a la It's a Wonderful Life, where people will be begging to get the shirts.

[00:35:43] [SPEAKER_01]: And then you might be left out in the cold.

[00:35:45] [SPEAKER_01]: And then I guess we have to miss our honeymoon?

[00:35:47] [SPEAKER_01]: That metaphor didn't really make any sense.

[00:35:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Let's just move on.

[00:35:50] [SPEAKER_00]: What's wrong with you?

[00:35:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, you know what?

[00:35:52] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm trying to salvage something here.

[00:35:55] [SPEAKER_00]: You said last week, we'll buy our shirts and we're going to cry.

[00:35:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Tears of joy.

[00:36:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Sorry that you're so unfeeling you don't know what that's like.

[00:36:03] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm just telling people, you can go ahead and order the shirts.

[00:36:07] [SPEAKER_00]: We'd appreciate that.

[00:36:09] [SPEAKER_00]: But you're not going to get as quick a service because of the trial.

[00:36:13] [SPEAKER_00]: And even though you won't hear the ads, the shirts are still available, at least for the moment.

[00:36:18] [SPEAKER_01]: And we will, unless there's a run on the shirts during trial, we will resume our cheat sheets and our regular program scheduling post-trial, maybe in mid-November if it lasts as long as it's supposed to.

[00:36:35] [SPEAKER_01]: And we'll definitely miss doing these cheat sheets because they're pretty fun to kind of chat at the end with you guys.

[00:36:40] [SPEAKER_01]: So wish us luck.

[00:36:44] [SPEAKER_01]: I think it'll be a little less fun tone in the trial coverage, but hopefully it'll be informative still.

[00:36:51] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we obviously don't feel comfortable talking about the terrible things that happened in Delphi that day and then immediately transitioned into...

[00:37:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Some dumb advertisement.

[00:37:03] [SPEAKER_00]: I wouldn't use the word dumb.

[00:37:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Silly advertisement?

[00:37:09] [SPEAKER_00]: I think my ads, at least, are like a public service telling people about a wonderful product that could change their lives.

[00:37:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, you did bring the country together and heal a lot of divisions with your last ad, didn't you?

[00:37:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, have you noticed that?

[00:37:23] [SPEAKER_00]: It seems to me when I go out on the streets of this great nation today, I see a lot less strife.

[00:37:29] [SPEAKER_00]: I see a lot less bickering.

[00:37:30] [SPEAKER_00]: I see people holding hands, people thanking me.

[00:37:38] [SPEAKER_00]: I like to teach the world to sing in perfect harmony.

[00:37:42] [SPEAKER_00]: It's a wonderful thing that these shirts are doing for this country.

[00:37:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Gone off the rails!

[00:37:55] [SPEAKER_00]: I've lost it and I haven't even had one day of the trial.

[00:37:58] [SPEAKER_00]: Imagine!

[00:37:59] [SPEAKER_01]: We're gonna be so insane by the end of this!

[00:38:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh my god, the next t-shirt ad you hear won't even be in English.

[00:38:06] [SPEAKER_01]: We'll be speaking in tongues or something.

[00:38:09] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know what's gonna happen.

[00:38:11] [SPEAKER_01]: We're gonna be totally insane.

[00:38:13] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:38:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Wow.

[00:38:15] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not even being silly right now.

[00:38:17] [SPEAKER_01]: No.

[00:38:17] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm just...

[00:38:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh god.

[00:38:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:38:22] [SPEAKER_01]: And we're gonna be really slow to answer email too.

[00:38:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Just, you know, I know sometimes people message us and just...

[00:38:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Just...

[00:38:29] [SPEAKER_01]: We're gonna be gone.

[00:38:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Mentally and physically.

[00:38:34] [SPEAKER_00]: But you can have the t-shirts to remember us by!

[00:38:37] [SPEAKER_00]: And you can still order the shirts.

[00:38:38] [SPEAKER_00]: You can still send us money.

[00:38:40] [SPEAKER_01]: No.

[00:38:40] [SPEAKER_01]: We're gonna get you the shirt.

[00:38:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Like, we're...

[00:38:42] [SPEAKER_01]: We have a process.

[00:38:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Don't worry about it.

[00:38:44] [SPEAKER_01]: We have a process.

[00:38:45] [SPEAKER_01]: We're gonna be...

[00:38:45] [SPEAKER_01]: We're gonna be responsive and we're gonna be mailing you the shirts.

[00:38:48] [SPEAKER_01]: It just may not be as immediate.

[00:38:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Normally when we get an order, we ship it out very quickly.

[00:38:52] [SPEAKER_01]: This might be a few days delay, but we'll still get it out to you.

[00:38:55] [SPEAKER_01]: So...

[00:38:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Or long.

[00:38:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:38:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Not much longer.

[00:39:00] [SPEAKER_01]: But, you know, it'll be good.

[00:39:03] [SPEAKER_01]: But we'll get it to you anyways.

[00:39:05] [SPEAKER_01]: And Ian, again, you can remember us.

[00:39:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Remember the happier times with the shirt.

[00:39:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Beautiful, colorful shirt.

[00:39:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Where can people buy it?

[00:39:13] [SPEAKER_00]: We're at Sheetshop.com.

[00:39:15] [SPEAKER_00]: It sounds like people will buy the shirts, remember the happy times, and perhaps weep.

[00:39:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, now you're...

[00:39:21] [SPEAKER_01]: I thought you hated my ad.

[00:39:23] [SPEAKER_01]: No, I'm just saying.

[00:39:24] [SPEAKER_01]: You're ripping me off.

[00:39:25] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm trying to bring it full circle because you want people to cry over these shirts.

[00:39:29] [SPEAKER_01]: And you want them to chuggle and make peace with others.

[00:39:33] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's how we're different.

[00:39:34] [SPEAKER_01]: That's how we're...

[00:39:36] [SPEAKER_01]: I want everyone to be sad and you just want to...

[00:39:39] [SPEAKER_00]: I want them to be happy.

[00:39:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Heal the divide.

[00:39:43] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, have a great weekend, everybody.

[00:39:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks, everybody.

[00:39:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Bye.

[00:39:48] [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks so much for listening to The Murder Sheet.

[00:39:51] [SPEAKER_00]: If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us at murdersheet at gmail.com.

[00:39:59] [SPEAKER_00]: If you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[00:40:06] [SPEAKER_01]: If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com slash murdersheet.

[00:40:18] [SPEAKER_01]: If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www.buymeacoffee.com slash murdersheet.

[00:40:28] [SPEAKER_01]: We very much appreciate any support.

[00:40:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for The Murder Sheet, and who you can find on the web at kevintg.com.

[00:40:42] [SPEAKER_01]: If you're looking to talk with other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join The Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook.

[00:40:50] [SPEAKER_01]: We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much.

[00:40:55] [SPEAKER_01]: We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages.

[00:41:02] [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks again for listening.

[00:41:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks so much for sticking around to the end of this Murder Sheet episode.

[00:41:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Just as a quick post-roll ad, we wanted to tell you again about our friend Jason Blair's wonderful Silver Linings Handbook.

[00:41:28] [SPEAKER_01]: This show is phenomenal.

[00:41:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Whether you are interested in true crime, the criminal justice system, law, mental health, stories of marginalized people, overcoming tragedy, well-being.

[00:41:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Like, he does it all.

[00:41:41] [SPEAKER_01]: This is a show for you.

[00:41:43] [SPEAKER_01]: He has so many different conversations with interesting people, people whose loved ones have gone missing, other podcasters in the true crime space.

[00:41:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Just interesting people with interesting life experiences.

[00:41:58] [SPEAKER_01]: And Jason's gift, I think, is just being an incredibly empathetic and compassionate interviewer where he's really letting his guests tell their stories and asking really interesting questions along the way, guiding those conversations forward.

[00:42:10] [SPEAKER_01]: I would liken it to like you're kind of almost sitting down with friends and sort of just hearing these fascinating tales that you wouldn't get otherwise.

[00:42:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Because he just has that ability as an interviewer to tease it out and really make it interesting for his audience.

[00:42:26] [SPEAKER_00]: On a personal level, Jason is frankly a great guy.

[00:42:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[00:42:29] [SPEAKER_00]: He's been a really good friend to us.

[00:42:32] [SPEAKER_00]: And so it's fun to be able to hit a button on my phone and get a little dose of Jason talking to people whenever I want.

[00:42:40] [SPEAKER_00]: Really terrific show.

[00:42:42] [SPEAKER_00]: We really recommend it highly.

[00:42:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:42:44] [SPEAKER_01]: I think our audience will like it.

[00:42:46] [SPEAKER_01]: And you've already met Jason if you listen consistently to our show.

[00:42:48] [SPEAKER_01]: He's been on our show a couple times.

[00:42:50] [SPEAKER_01]: We've been on his show.

[00:42:51] [SPEAKER_01]: He's a terrific guest.

[00:42:53] [SPEAKER_01]: I say this in one of our ads about him, but I literally always – I'm like, oh, yeah, I remember when Jason said this.

[00:42:58] [SPEAKER_01]: That really resonated.

[00:42:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I do quote him in conversations sometimes because he really has a good grasp of different complicated issues.

[00:43:05] [SPEAKER_00]: She quotes him to me all the time.

[00:43:06] [SPEAKER_01]: I do – I'm like, I remember when Jason said this?

[00:43:07] [SPEAKER_01]: That was so right.

[00:43:08] [SPEAKER_01]: So, I mean, I think if we're doing that, I think – and you like us, I think you should give it a shot.

[00:43:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Give it a try.

[00:43:14] [SPEAKER_01]: I think you'll really enjoy it.

[00:43:15] [SPEAKER_01]: And again, he does a range of different topics, but they all kind of have this similar theme of compassion, of overcoming suffering, of dealing with suffering, of mental health, wellness, things like that.

[00:43:26] [SPEAKER_01]: There's kind of a common through line of compassion and empathy there that I think we find very nice.

[00:43:31] [SPEAKER_01]: And we work on a lot of stories that can be very tough, and we try to bring compassion and empathy to it.

[00:43:37] [SPEAKER_01]: But this is something that almost can be like if you're kind of feeling a little burned out by true crime.

[00:43:41] [SPEAKER_01]: I think this is kind of the life-affirming stuff that can be nice to listen to in a podcast.

[00:43:48] [SPEAKER_00]: It's compassionate.

[00:43:49] [SPEAKER_00]: It's affirming.

[00:43:51] [SPEAKER_00]: But I also want to emphasize it's smart.

[00:43:55] [SPEAKER_00]: People – Jason is a very intelligent, articulate person.

[00:43:59] [SPEAKER_00]: This is a smart show, but it's an accessible show.

[00:44:02] [SPEAKER_00]: I think you'll all really enjoy it.

[00:44:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and he's got a great community that he's building.

[00:44:07] [SPEAKER_01]: So we're really excited to be a part of that.

[00:44:09] [SPEAKER_01]: We're fans of the show.

[00:44:10] [SPEAKER_01]: We love it.

[00:44:11] [SPEAKER_01]: And we would strongly encourage you all to check it out.

[00:44:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Download some episodes.

[00:44:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Listen.

[00:44:15] [SPEAKER_01]: I think you'll understand what we're talking about once you do.

[00:44:18] [SPEAKER_01]: But anyways, you can listen to The Silver Linings Handbook wherever you listen to podcasts.

[00:44:23] [SPEAKER_00]: Wherever you listen to podcasts.

[00:44:24] [SPEAKER_00]: Very easy to find.

[00:44:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.

[00:44:26] Absolutely.