The Cheat Sheet: Skillets and Screwdrivers

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[00:01:46] [SPEAKER_00]: Content warning.

[00:01:47] [SPEAKER_00]: This episode contains discussion of murder and violence, including sexually motivated murders.

[00:01:54] [SPEAKER_00]: So today on the cheat sheet, we've got some really weirdly enough cases from neighboring states.

[00:02:02] [SPEAKER_00]: So we have New York and New Jersey, and then we have Ohio and Pennsylvania.

[00:02:06] [SPEAKER_00]: And we'll also discuss a tragic attack that just occurred in New Orleans.

[00:02:15] [SPEAKER_00]: My name is Anya Kane.

[00:02:16] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm a journalist.

[00:02:17] [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm Kevin Greenlee.

[00:02:19] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm an attorney.

[00:02:20] [SPEAKER_01]: And this is The Murder Sheet.

[00:02:21] [SPEAKER_01]: We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases.

[00:02:28] [SPEAKER_01]: We're The Murder Sheet.

[00:02:30] [SPEAKER_00]: And this is The Cheat Sheet.

[00:02:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Skillets and Screwdrivers.

[00:03:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Before we begin, I feel like I should note that I dropped the ball.

[00:03:24] [SPEAKER_01]: I got tied up with some other show-related work.

[00:03:27] [SPEAKER_01]: And so Anya picked up the ball, ran with it valiantly down the field.

[00:03:32] [SPEAKER_01]: And she is the one that has picked these cases and done the research for all of them.

[00:03:39] [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm just going to be a big burden on this episode.

[00:03:43] No.

[00:03:43] [SPEAKER_00]: I also, can I just say, I love that we recently went to a sports bar to eat food.

[00:03:48] [SPEAKER_00]: And you watched a bit, and we watched a bit of the Texas versus Arizona game.

[00:03:53] [SPEAKER_00]: And now you suddenly are using a bunch of football metaphor to talk about our show.

[00:03:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:03:58] [SPEAKER_01]: I even bought, we saw a little bit of this football game.

[00:04:01] [SPEAKER_01]: And I even was interested enough later to look at the score.

[00:04:05] [SPEAKER_01]: And it turns out something controversial happened at the end of that game.

[00:04:09] [SPEAKER_01]: There was some sort of call that apparently some people feel went the wrong way.

[00:04:13] [SPEAKER_01]: And I said, oh, I want to read and understand what this call was.

[00:04:15] [SPEAKER_01]: And I read it, and I don't understand it.

[00:04:18] [SPEAKER_01]: But there was something controversial about a particular call.

[00:04:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Who won?

[00:04:21] Okay.

[00:04:22] [SPEAKER_01]: I think Texas.

[00:04:23] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[00:04:24] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we kind of got into it.

[00:04:25] [SPEAKER_00]: We're really not, I mean, we're not, we're not anti-sports.

[00:04:28] [SPEAKER_00]: We're not like those weirdos who like, oh, a sports ball, blah, blah, blah.

[00:04:31] [SPEAKER_00]: No, it's just, it's just not something we know that much about.

[00:04:33] [SPEAKER_00]: But like, you can kind of get into the crowd of like, oh, everyone's screaming.

[00:04:36] [SPEAKER_00]: That's kind of fun.

[00:04:37] [SPEAKER_01]: But it also goes to show you, we often on this program, we're talking about the workings of the legal system.

[00:04:44] [SPEAKER_01]: And we're trying to explain how certain things work or here's what that means.

[00:04:48] [SPEAKER_01]: And it doesn't mean we're smart.

[00:04:51] [SPEAKER_01]: It just means we're interested in this field and we've come to understand it.

[00:04:56] [SPEAKER_01]: And I don't have an interest in football.

[00:04:58] [SPEAKER_01]: So there was this controversial call.

[00:05:00] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm completely baffled by it.

[00:05:02] [SPEAKER_01]: And that doesn't mean I'm dumb.

[00:05:03] [SPEAKER_01]: It just means it's not my area of interest.

[00:05:06] [SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[00:05:06] [SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[00:05:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's a really good point.

[00:05:09] [SPEAKER_00]: We all know what we know.

[00:05:10] [SPEAKER_00]: And we don't know what we don't know.

[00:05:13] [SPEAKER_00]: To Rumsfeld, there are unknown unknowns in topics that we're not well versed in.

[00:05:18] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's always so important to keep that in mind.

[00:05:22] [SPEAKER_01]: And so, yeah.

[00:05:22] [SPEAKER_01]: So that's why we really try to explain things in a clear way, understanding we're all smart people here.

[00:05:28] [SPEAKER_01]: And I don't understand this football thing.

[00:05:31] [SPEAKER_01]: But there was a controversial call.

[00:05:33] [SPEAKER_00]: But it was fun to sit along and be like, huh.

[00:05:35] [SPEAKER_00]: Anyways.

[00:05:37] [SPEAKER_01]: We had hamburgers and Coke.

[00:05:39] What?

[00:05:39] We're stealing our orders.

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[00:08:55] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm a history major.

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[00:09:29] [SPEAKER_00]: This is a very tragic story out of New Orleans, though,

[00:09:33] [SPEAKER_00]: that this is something that kind of actually this is

[00:09:35] [SPEAKER_00]: whenever there's like really bad news in this country,

[00:09:38] [SPEAKER_00]: because Kevin wakes up a little bit earlier than me usually,

[00:09:41] [SPEAKER_00]: when I wake up sometimes you'll just hit me

[00:09:43] [SPEAKER_00]: with like some really bad news.

[00:09:44] [SPEAKER_00]: So this is one of those stories where, you know,

[00:09:47] [SPEAKER_00]: a vehicle attack against a crowd in New Orleans just happened.

[00:09:52] [SPEAKER_00]: And we're not going to say the name of the perpetrator here.

[00:09:56] [SPEAKER_00]: He was killed in a shootout.

[00:09:58] [SPEAKER_00]: He was a 42-year-old American citizen from Texas

[00:10:01] [SPEAKER_00]: who apparently was influenced, authorities are now saying,

[00:10:04] [SPEAKER_00]: by the Islamic State terrorist group.

[00:10:06] [SPEAKER_00]: So this was a terrorist attack against innocent people,

[00:10:10] [SPEAKER_00]: a lot of young people just out having a nice time on New Year's Day

[00:10:13] [SPEAKER_00]: very early in the morning.

[00:10:15] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to read some of their names.

[00:10:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Not all the victims have had their names come out yet,

[00:10:20] [SPEAKER_00]: I imagine as next of kin is notified more will come out.

[00:10:24] [SPEAKER_00]: But some of them already, again,

[00:10:26] [SPEAKER_00]: a lot of very young people at the start of their lives

[00:10:28] [SPEAKER_00]: who should have been allowed to live their lives

[00:10:32] [SPEAKER_00]: if not for this one selfish and, you know,

[00:10:35] [SPEAKER_00]: evil person's ridiculous ideology.

[00:10:38] [SPEAKER_00]: So 18-year-old Kareem Badawi was killed.

[00:10:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Martin Beck, who was 27, also went by Tiger.

[00:10:48] [SPEAKER_00]: Reggie Hunter, who was 37.

[00:10:52] [SPEAKER_00]: Nakaira Cheyenne Dedeau.

[00:10:55] [SPEAKER_00]: Matthew Tenadorio, who was 25.

[00:10:58] [SPEAKER_00]: Hubert Gautreau, 21.

[00:11:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Those are the names that have come out yet.

[00:11:02] [SPEAKER_00]: I've seen different reports that said

[00:11:04] [SPEAKER_00]: 14 or 15 people were killed, many were injured.

[00:11:07] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's a frightening thing because

[00:11:09] [SPEAKER_00]: vehicle attacks can be very difficult to anticipate

[00:11:13] [SPEAKER_00]: and combat because, you know,

[00:11:17] [SPEAKER_00]: there are certain areas where cars are allowed to be

[00:11:19] [SPEAKER_00]: and most people are just trying to drive to get somewhere.

[00:11:22] [SPEAKER_00]: But if that turns into some sort of terrorist attack,

[00:11:25] [SPEAKER_00]: you know, again, it's just a concern for people

[00:11:29] [SPEAKER_00]: in a lot of areas where that can be very difficult to stop.

[00:11:31] [SPEAKER_00]: But obviously condolences to these families.

[00:11:33] [SPEAKER_00]: This never should have happened.

[00:11:35] [SPEAKER_00]: It's awful.

[00:11:35] [SPEAKER_00]: And so very concerning.

[00:11:38] [SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, and we're not naming the perpetrator again

[00:11:41] [SPEAKER_00]: because there's literature at this point

[00:11:45] [SPEAKER_00]: that exists on some of these mass attack events

[00:11:50] [SPEAKER_00]: and sort of looking at them like they,

[00:11:53] [SPEAKER_00]: by giving the perpetrator a lot of attention,

[00:11:57] [SPEAKER_00]: media may be making it more likely for other attacks to happen

[00:11:59] [SPEAKER_00]: because you're essentially glorifying the person,

[00:12:02] [SPEAKER_00]: even if it's, you know, you're writing critically about it

[00:12:05] [SPEAKER_00]: or talking critically about the person.

[00:12:07] [SPEAKER_00]: And you're giving them the attention they may seek.

[00:12:09] [SPEAKER_00]: And so we're cognizant of that.

[00:12:11] [SPEAKER_00]: And so that is why we've sort of tried at certain points to shift our approach.

[00:12:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's a tough line to walk because you have a responsibility

[00:12:19] [SPEAKER_01]: as a member of the media to report on what happens,

[00:12:22] [SPEAKER_01]: which includes naming people,

[00:12:24] [SPEAKER_01]: but you don't want to give them undue attention.

[00:12:27] [SPEAKER_01]: So maybe the thing is, is to name them a couple of times.

[00:12:30] [SPEAKER_01]: And after that, don't.

[00:12:32] [SPEAKER_01]: I remember a while back,

[00:12:34] [SPEAKER_01]: we did an interview with the author of a book on President Garfield,

[00:12:38] [SPEAKER_01]: who of course was assassinated.

[00:12:40] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think in his book, did he like, did he name the assassin once?

[00:12:44] [SPEAKER_01]: And then after that, he just called him the assassin or the killer.

[00:12:47] [SPEAKER_00]: I loved that.

[00:12:47] [SPEAKER_00]: That was awesome.

[00:12:48] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that was good year.

[00:12:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Because he had some of these very similar concerns

[00:12:53] [SPEAKER_01]: as you are so wonderfully articulating.

[00:12:56] [SPEAKER_00]: And in this case, I'm just like, I mean, it's,

[00:12:58] [SPEAKER_00]: we're not doing a huge deep dive into it.

[00:13:00] [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm comfortable with not naming him.

[00:13:02] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think that adds much.

[00:13:03] [SPEAKER_00]: I want to say what his ideology was and what, you know,

[00:13:06] [SPEAKER_00]: what he was doing this, you know, in the name of,

[00:13:08] [SPEAKER_00]: because I think that's important for people to be aware.

[00:13:11] [SPEAKER_00]: But I think it's not a situation where we need to necessarily dwell on,

[00:13:17] [SPEAKER_00]: on him and his nonsense, frankly.

[00:13:20] [SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, that's, that's, that's one tragic thing that happened.

[00:13:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Now, I guess we'll go into a case that's literally from my backyard.

[00:13:31] [SPEAKER_00]: And I never heard of it.

[00:13:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Like.

[00:13:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Not literally in your backyard.

[00:13:36] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, no.

[00:13:37] [SPEAKER_01]: It's in your.

[00:13:38] [SPEAKER_00]: My family was implicated.

[00:13:40] [SPEAKER_00]: No, no, no, no.

[00:13:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, I mean.

[00:13:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Words have meaning.

[00:13:44] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, whatever, Mr. Lawyer.

[00:13:46] [SPEAKER_00]: So this is, this is a case where, you know,

[00:13:50] [SPEAKER_00]: this is how close it was to where I grew up, Kevin.

[00:13:52] [SPEAKER_00]: Remember when we went walking in that park with my parents and, uh,

[00:13:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Nala, the wonderful dog?

[00:13:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[00:14:00] [SPEAKER_01]: But will our listeners remember this?

[00:14:01] [SPEAKER_00]: No, but I'm, but I'm asking you.

[00:14:04] [SPEAKER_00]: You all were along for the ride.

[00:14:05] [SPEAKER_00]: You just didn't know it.

[00:14:06] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, you know, it, this, this crime actually took place.

[00:14:10] [SPEAKER_00]: It's very close to that park.

[00:14:12] [SPEAKER_00]: This was in a, um, a residence in East Chester, which is a town that is rather confusingly in

[00:14:19] [SPEAKER_00]: West Chester County.

[00:14:21] [SPEAKER_00]: So East Chester is in West Chester in New York.

[00:14:23] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know why.

[00:14:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Just don't worry about it.

[00:14:26] [SPEAKER_00]: And this came up in the news because outgoing West Chester County District Attorney Mimi Roka

[00:14:33] [SPEAKER_00]: basically did like an announcement recently saying,

[00:14:36] [SPEAKER_00]: Hey guys, remember we kind of, uh, had this one case that like we tried five times and ended up in an acquittal.

[00:14:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, we found two new suspects for these murders and they have no connection to the person who initially came up in this.

[00:14:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Two new guys that we don't know who they are.

[00:14:56] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, the incoming DA, um, whose name I'm going to butcher and I apologize, Susan Kakachi, um, subsequently pledged, uh, to kind of like say, I'll keep reviewing this.

[00:15:09] [SPEAKER_00]: So I don't, I mean, I don't, I don't like, which, you know, seems like I'm sure that the news is acting like, wow, that's a big deal.

[00:15:14] [SPEAKER_00]: But that, that doesn't really seem like that.

[00:15:17] [SPEAKER_01]: That's what a prosecutor does.

[00:15:18] [SPEAKER_01]: They review cases.

[00:15:19] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:15:20] [SPEAKER_00]: I'll continue to do my, I'll do my job once I take over.

[00:15:23] [SPEAKER_00]: It's like, yes.

[00:15:24] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, so this is, so this is a case that, um, took place in 1996, that long ago.

[00:15:33] [SPEAKER_00]: And it was the murders of Archie Harris, a 79 year old man and his home health aide, uh, Betty Ramsharan, who is 35.

[00:15:42] [SPEAKER_00]: And actually Harris's dog BJ was also brutally killed.

[00:15:46] [SPEAKER_00]: And these people all died in, um, pretty graphic ways.

[00:15:51] [SPEAKER_00]: They were beaten.

[00:15:52] [SPEAKER_00]: They were stabbed.

[00:15:53] [SPEAKER_00]: I believe a bag was put over, um, Betty's head and she was strangled as well as her throat being slit.

[00:15:58] [SPEAKER_00]: It was all very brutal.

[00:16:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Archie Harris was a, um, a millionaire.

[00:16:04] [SPEAKER_00]: He was a very wealthy man.

[00:16:06] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, he was known for bragging about how much money he had just lying around his house.

[00:16:11] [SPEAKER_00]: Which.

[00:16:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Not a good idea.

[00:16:14] [SPEAKER_00]: No.

[00:16:14] [SPEAKER_00]: In true crime, it feels like you do have cases like that and you're just kind of like, what are people thinking?

[00:16:19] [SPEAKER_00]: But okay.

[00:16:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, and he also like was alternately described as either cantankerous or maybe just awful.

[00:16:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, there were numerous accounts of abuse towards AIDS, um, pointing a gun at one, for instance, and then forcing another.

[00:16:38] [SPEAKER_00]: And there was a lawsuit over this to perform a sex act.

[00:16:40] [SPEAKER_00]: That is very important to this case.

[00:16:42] [SPEAKER_00]: So keep that in mind.

[00:16:43] [SPEAKER_00]: So he's accused of forcing another, um, aid, not Betty, but another person to perform a sex act.

[00:16:50] [SPEAKER_00]: So sexually assaulting, uh, one of his employees.

[00:16:53] [SPEAKER_00]: And, um, you know, he, he, I believe denied that.

[00:16:58] [SPEAKER_00]: I think he had like an ad that was about to come out at the time of his death saying like, I'll give $500,000 to anyone who can prove that.

[00:17:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, in addition to that, his three children were estranged from him and had been cut out of the will.

[00:17:12] [SPEAKER_00]: And he seemingly was going to leave a lot of money to, uh, Betty Ramsharan, who was an immigrant from Trinidad who was taking care of him.

[00:17:21] [SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, complicated situation.

[00:17:26] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, and, uh, the, to be clear, the, the aid that he was accused of sexually assaulting was a woman named Stella Davis.

[00:17:33] [SPEAKER_00]: And that assault allegedly occurred in July of 1996.

[00:17:37] [SPEAKER_00]: So it would have been pretty recent.

[00:17:38] [SPEAKER_00]: On November 21st, 1996, the bodies of, um, uh, Archie and Betty are found in the home.

[00:17:51] [SPEAKER_00]: And again, it's this brutal scene.

[00:17:53] [SPEAKER_00]: There's not a lot of evidence that was not like fingerprints and things like that, that really tie anyone to it.

[00:18:01] [SPEAKER_00]: So the case actually goes cold for a while until, um, I believe it was a few years later where a man named, uh, Selwyn Days was arrested.

[00:18:13] [SPEAKER_00]: He had been harassing, having some kind of issue with his ex-girlfriend, Sherilyn Mayhew.

[00:18:22] [SPEAKER_00]: And he was arrested for violating a protective order.

[00:18:26] [SPEAKER_00]: And so, you know, doesn't seem related.

[00:18:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Then Mayhew calls the police and says, by the way, the guy that you guys just got, she called anonymously, by the way.

[00:18:37] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, you need to look into him for this double homicide because he bragged about doing it.

[00:18:45] [SPEAKER_00]: And then it turns out that Days was the son of Stella, the home aide who had said she was sexually assaulted by Archie Davis.

[00:18:55] [SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, what Mayhew said was that in one instance, a guy bumped into Days.

[00:19:02] [SPEAKER_00]: And he said something like, quote, this guy don't know who he'd be messing with.

[00:19:07] [SPEAKER_00]: You know I will kill him because I did it before and I got away with it.

[00:19:10] [SPEAKER_00]: And he talked about, according to her, allegedly, killing an old man and a lady and, um, you know, said something like, the man raped his mother and nobody is going to do anything to his mother.

[00:19:22] [SPEAKER_00]: So it's like a revenge killing rather than motivated by the money aspect.

[00:19:27] [SPEAKER_00]: So police get a confession.

[00:19:29] [SPEAKER_00]: The problem with that, though, is that this interaction with police lasted for hours.

[00:19:37] [SPEAKER_00]: So police say that they informed him of his Miranda rights around 530 p.m.

[00:19:46] [SPEAKER_00]: And they didn't start videotaping the interviews, these kind of back to back long interviews until 142 a.m.

[00:19:55] [SPEAKER_00]: And I've seen different reports on how long this lasted, but it was a long time.

[00:20:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Meanwhile, defense would later claim that Days is very suggestible and probably has a low intelligence, maybe even mental illness.

[00:20:12] [SPEAKER_00]: They would later say that, oh, he was on Haldol, which if you ask any medical professional, Haldol does not make you just make stuff up.

[00:20:22] [SPEAKER_00]: But that's not how it works.

[00:20:24] [SPEAKER_00]: It's an antipsychotic.

[00:20:26] [SPEAKER_00]: But they would note that.

[00:20:28] [SPEAKER_00]: And they would also say that he, um, ultimately they would get him confessing.

[00:20:35] [SPEAKER_00]: What the defense argued is that they fed him a lot of information before that and then immediately afterwards he recanted.

[00:20:42] [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm just curious, so far, what are you thinking?

[00:20:46] [SPEAKER_00]: What are your thoughts?

[00:20:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I'm mainly struck by the most recent development about the press release.

[00:20:54] [SPEAKER_00]: You're back in 2024.

[00:20:56] [SPEAKER_00]: You haven't come back with me to the early 2000s.

[00:20:59] [SPEAKER_00]: You're still there.

[00:21:00] [SPEAKER_01]: But it sounds like they had a decent case that they pursued.

[00:21:06] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, okay.

[00:21:07] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not one of those people.

[00:21:09] [SPEAKER_00]: I've gotten so skeptical of everything about how we talk about true crime that I'm not necessarily going to go and say that I believe that Days is 100% innocent.

[00:21:21] [SPEAKER_00]: I just don't know.

[00:21:22] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think they necessarily had a super strong case because there was.

[00:21:26] [SPEAKER_01]: And he was acquitted.

[00:21:27] [SPEAKER_01]: So basically, whether they had a strong case or a weak case, he is legally not guilty of the crime.

[00:21:33] [SPEAKER_00]: He's legally not guilty, but that doesn't mean someone's factually innocent.

[00:21:36] [SPEAKER_00]: And I just don't feel like I feel like I would have to study something like this for a long time to feel like I was comfortable coming to a strong conclusion either way.

[00:21:45] [SPEAKER_00]: To me, there were problems with his confession that may actually be not problems.

[00:21:52] [SPEAKER_00]: It may just be my misinterpretation of the case.

[00:21:56] [SPEAKER_00]: And so I would defer to anyone who knows better on this.

[00:22:00] [SPEAKER_00]: But he claimed at one point he seemed to be recalling in his interview with police how his dad hit him in the head with a baseball bat.

[00:22:09] [SPEAKER_00]: And then seemingly one of the detectives asked, oh, was that was that one of the victims?

[00:22:15] [SPEAKER_00]: And then he talked about how the old man had been nasty to him and hit him in the head with a bat.

[00:22:21] [SPEAKER_00]: And he pretended to be dead and then came up and attacked Archie Harris.

[00:22:30] [SPEAKER_00]: Now, I guess I'm I guess like one like it sounds like Archie Harris had a history of bad behavior towards people.

[00:22:37] [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm not saying that's totally necessarily out of line, but it just seems a little bit.

[00:22:43] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, so he he hits Selwyn in the head with a baseball bat, but there's no like blood at the scene of the offender.

[00:22:49] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, I don't know, just that something like something about that struck me kind of the wrong way, I guess.

[00:22:59] [SPEAKER_00]: And then also Selwyn said that at the end, a woman was in the house with him and came in and was like, wow, you really butchered them.

[00:23:06] [SPEAKER_00]: You sliced and diced them.

[00:23:08] [SPEAKER_00]: So like there's there's now two people at this scene.

[00:23:12] [SPEAKER_00]: From what I read from the media accounts, I did not see anything about him saying that there was a bag over Betty's head either.

[00:23:19] [SPEAKER_00]: So I guess I would.

[00:23:23] [SPEAKER_00]: There's certain things about Selwyn days that do sound good for this case, i.e. having a motive.

[00:23:29] [SPEAKER_00]: He had a strong motive.

[00:23:30] [SPEAKER_00]: This man seemingly was accused of wronging his mother, harming his mother.

[00:23:35] [SPEAKER_00]: He and his mother, when you look into it, had a very enmeshed relationship.

[00:23:38] [SPEAKER_00]: His mother was constantly getting into fights with his girlfriends.

[00:23:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, it was really bizarre, frankly.

[00:23:44] [SPEAKER_00]: And his mother later on kind of like messed up his defense by getting too involved in like seemingly trying to call witnesses to say, hey, can you like, you know, like you saw him in North Carolina at this time, right?

[00:23:55] [SPEAKER_00]: Which is very suspicious, frankly.

[00:23:58] [SPEAKER_00]: But at the same time, some of the things about the confession and certainly the fact that it was not filmed for so many hours, if they if they'd like lost a bit of film here or there, I don't think that's a huge deal.

[00:24:11] [SPEAKER_00]: But.

[00:24:12] [SPEAKER_00]: It would you want to have a situation where defense attorneys cannot plausibly say, well, maybe you just fed him a bunch of details, you know?

[00:24:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, basically, I guess where I'm at, I can I can understand why the prosecutors charged him.

[00:24:24] [SPEAKER_01]: I can understand why the jury ultimately acquitted him.

[00:24:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, there were five trials.

[00:24:30] [SPEAKER_00]: OK, no, I'm not even kidding.

[00:24:33] [SPEAKER_00]: So first trial hung jury.

[00:24:36] [SPEAKER_00]: OK, second trial, he's convicted and then that is thrown out.

[00:24:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Third trial hung jury.

[00:24:44] [SPEAKER_00]: Fourth trial.

[00:24:45] [SPEAKER_00]: He's convicted and.

[00:24:50] [SPEAKER_00]: That's thrown out.

[00:24:51] [SPEAKER_00]: And then fifth trial acquitted.

[00:24:54] [SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[00:24:55] [SPEAKER_00]: Reasons for it being thrown out.

[00:24:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Incompetent counsel.

[00:24:59] [SPEAKER_00]: I think there was because he did not provide alibi witnesses.

[00:25:03] [SPEAKER_00]: There were a number of people in North Carolina who did seem to have seen him in Goldsboro, North Carolina.

[00:25:10] [SPEAKER_00]: Now, they don't know when exactly these people were killed.

[00:25:13] [SPEAKER_00]: It was somewhere between November 19th, 1996, when Archie was last seen and November 21st, 1996, when the bodies were discovered.

[00:25:21] [SPEAKER_00]: So it's kind of hard to nail down.

[00:25:22] [SPEAKER_00]: But there were people who were like a former police officer in the area and a former magistrate who were able to say, well, I know I saw him on this state.

[00:25:32] [SPEAKER_00]: One of the reasons that one of the witnesses was not used, which was this former police officer, was that he said he also ran into Stella, Selwyn's mother, who was selling jewelry.

[00:25:44] [SPEAKER_00]: And what the court noted was it seemed like the defense attorney was freaked out about that because it's like maybe Selwyn gave her jewelry from the victims to sell and stuff like that.

[00:25:54] [SPEAKER_00]: What the court noted is that she was selling like cheapo costume jewelry with her sister at like a garage sale.

[00:26:00] [SPEAKER_00]: So it wasn't really didn't seem like it should have been that much of a concern.

[00:26:07] [SPEAKER_00]: But, yeah, it's so complicated.

[00:26:09] [SPEAKER_00]: But, you know, some of these witnesses do give me pause.

[00:26:12] [SPEAKER_00]: So does the fact that Stella was seemingly going around and trying to do stuff with him.

[00:26:15] [SPEAKER_00]: That is not a good look at all.

[00:26:19] [SPEAKER_00]: Seems like she and the defense attorney were really kind of sniping at each other by the end.

[00:26:24] [SPEAKER_00]: At least the initial defense attorney, you know, but.

[00:26:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Can we talk about this 2024 business?

[00:26:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Because this is really confusing me.

[00:26:32] [SPEAKER_01]: So correct me if I'm wrong.

[00:26:33] [SPEAKER_01]: So basically there is this contentious series of murder trials that ultimately end in acquittal.

[00:26:40] [SPEAKER_01]: A new prosecutor takes office and is now about to leave office.

[00:26:44] [SPEAKER_01]: And as she leaves, she says, oh, by the way, do you remember that murder case that we lost?

[00:26:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, now I think that person is innocent and two other guys did it.

[00:26:56] [SPEAKER_01]: But I'm not going to tell you who they are.

[00:26:58] [SPEAKER_01]: And we don't have nearly enough evidence to charge them.

[00:27:01] [SPEAKER_01]: That's what I think.

[00:27:02] [SPEAKER_01]: And then the new prosecutor says, uh, I'll look at it.

[00:27:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Is that basically it?

[00:27:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:27:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Why would the outgoing prosecutor do that?

[00:27:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Why would she suddenly say, oh, I think it's these two other guys?

[00:27:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Because if if there was a mistake made in the prosecution of this first party, it would be a rush to judgment, like charging him before they had the proper evidence.

[00:27:27] [SPEAKER_01]: So why are you now suddenly basically doing something similar?

[00:27:32] [SPEAKER_01]: She's not charging these people, but she's basically identifying them and saying, oh, there was these two people I think really did.

[00:27:38] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I mean, she's not giving us any details.

[00:27:41] [SPEAKER_00]: So, I mean, I have no idea who she's talking about.

[00:27:44] [SPEAKER_01]: It's troubling to me.

[00:27:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Why would you bother to do that?

[00:27:47] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.

[00:27:47] [SPEAKER_00]: It's really bizarre because I think you're right.

[00:27:49] [SPEAKER_00]: I think sometimes when people and again, the press is so credulous with this stuff.

[00:27:54] [SPEAKER_00]: Like the press is like, you know, cold case heating up, you know, extra, extra read all about it.

[00:28:00] [SPEAKER_00]: And like what I see is I baffled by it, too, because it's not really I don't know.

[00:28:07] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it would make sense if Mimi Roka like ran on like, I'm going to solve this case once and for all.

[00:28:11] [SPEAKER_00]: But even then, it wouldn't really make sense because why are you doing it as you're like one foot out the door?

[00:28:15] [SPEAKER_01]: But it also creates a situation where if the incoming person comes in and says, I don't think there's evidence here and I don't think they're going to develop the evidence and never issues charges.

[00:28:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Does it look like, well, Mimi was on it and she would have done it.

[00:28:30] [SPEAKER_01]: And this person's dropped the ball.

[00:28:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it kind of does.

[00:28:33] [SPEAKER_00]: It creates that impression, even if it's not accurate.

[00:28:35] [SPEAKER_00]: People in true crime oftentimes, I think, have a bit of a bullish view of prosecutors in the sense that, like, I've heard so many people like, well, you should just file the charges and see what happens.

[00:28:45] [SPEAKER_00]: No, that's how you get prosecutorial abuse and people filing weak cases that have no business being going to trial.

[00:28:54] [SPEAKER_00]: That's not good.

[00:28:55] [SPEAKER_00]: That's not what we should want.

[00:28:56] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, I hate it when people go on about like the prosecutor cares more about their winning record.

[00:29:01] [SPEAKER_00]: You know what?

[00:29:02] [SPEAKER_00]: They should care about bringing strong cases because otherwise that is how you get wrongful convictions.

[00:29:07] You know, like that.

[00:29:08] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, if we don't want that, then we can't be, you know, saying that you should just, you know, spin the roulette wheel.

[00:29:15] [SPEAKER_00]: But in this case, I don't know.

[00:29:16] [SPEAKER_00]: It's bizarre.

[00:29:18] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, if it was maybe more detailed, maybe if her statement had been more of like, we're looking for evidence around this.

[00:29:25] [SPEAKER_00]: If you know anything about this, come forward.

[00:29:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe that would be like a lead generation situation.

[00:29:31] [SPEAKER_00]: That might make sense.

[00:29:32] [SPEAKER_00]: But I do know that there was talk of DNA, at least in 2009.

[00:29:38] [SPEAKER_00]: There was, you know, there was indications that the base of the knife blade that had been used in the murders, Betty's DNA was on that.

[00:29:48] [SPEAKER_00]: And actually, the first defense attorney had this wild, frankly, victim blaming and embarrassing theory that Betty got mad because Archie was actually going to leave more money to someone else that would cut her out more.

[00:30:01] [SPEAKER_00]: So she killed him and then killed herself, even though all of the, you know, the witnesses who were, you know, the coroner and whatnot were like that did not happen.

[00:30:10] [SPEAKER_00]: That's not at all plausible based on the scene.

[00:30:13] [SPEAKER_00]: So that's ridiculous.

[00:30:14] [SPEAKER_00]: And frankly, insulting to one of the victims of this horrible crime.

[00:30:19] [SPEAKER_00]: But they're indicated that there might be some kind of male DNA in some of these mixtures.

[00:30:25] [SPEAKER_00]: So if if there's enough and it's not too contaminated, then that would be a way forward potentially.

[00:30:32] [SPEAKER_00]: But I wouldn't think you'd need to like.

[00:30:35] [SPEAKER_00]: First of all, it's been years.

[00:30:36] [SPEAKER_00]: So I think if they had anything.

[00:30:39] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, it probably isn't enough.

[00:30:43] [SPEAKER_00]: But if I don't know, it's why do you think a prosecutor would do this?

[00:30:47] [SPEAKER_00]: It's baffling to me.

[00:30:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Passing the buck.

[00:30:52] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.

[00:30:52] [SPEAKER_01]: It's baffling.

[00:30:53] [SPEAKER_00]: But no one's talking about this.

[00:30:55] [SPEAKER_01]: It's I mean, I don't know.

[00:30:56] [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe people in Westchester were.

[00:30:58] [SPEAKER_00]: But I don't.

[00:30:59] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I like I mean, again, I know people in Westchester.

[00:31:03] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't like no one was coming up to me like, oh, gosh, they they better get that Eastchester thing.

[00:31:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Like it's not it's I mean, ever since I talked to a prosecutor, I talked to a prosecutor once who said if a prosecutor thinks someone is guilty, they don't issue a press release.

[00:31:19] [SPEAKER_01]: They file charges.

[00:31:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you have an option here.

[00:31:22] [SPEAKER_01]: And if you don't think someone is guilty or you're not sure, you just keep your own counsel.

[00:31:29] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't see what is gained by this, especially if, as you say, the outgoing prosecutor isn't asking for information.

[00:31:36] [SPEAKER_01]: And also the outgoing prosecutor is not even going to have any impact on the investigation of this case going forward since she chose not to run for reelection.

[00:31:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's it's really odd.

[00:31:48] [SPEAKER_00]: And again, I can understand it more if it was like, hey, anyone who was at this gas station at this time, come forward, because then it's like there's an investigative angle.

[00:31:57] [SPEAKER_00]: But it's just not.

[00:31:59] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.

[00:32:00] [SPEAKER_01]: I've heard of cases where people think, oh, if such and such a person is guilty, if I say something in the media, maybe they'll scare them into talking and revealing something.

[00:32:10] [SPEAKER_01]: So maybe she has the misguided notion that if she says two people did it and two people did, in fact, do it, they might be so worried that they might turn on each other.

[00:32:19] [SPEAKER_01]: And I don't know.

[00:32:20] [SPEAKER_01]: That just seems like fantasy, though.

[00:32:21] [SPEAKER_01]: But I don't know what's in this woman's mind.

[00:32:23] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't understand it.

[00:32:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, well, it's it.

[00:32:26] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think there's I don't think the case is heating up.

[00:32:29] [SPEAKER_00]: I think that's overly generous by the press.

[00:32:32] [SPEAKER_00]: And I maybe there is some grand scheme.

[00:32:35] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I almost hope there is.

[00:32:36] [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe there is some kind of like plan behind it.

[00:32:39] [SPEAKER_00]: But I it's too bizarre.

[00:32:41] [SPEAKER_00]: And I just don't think we can assume that.

[00:32:43] [SPEAKER_00]: And frankly, the response from the incoming D.A. is so lukewarm that, you know, it doesn't really bode well, I don't think, for the case.

[00:32:54] [SPEAKER_00]: And frankly, with DNA, I mean, that would be great.

[00:32:57] [SPEAKER_00]: But why hasn't there been movement already then?

[00:33:00] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think I guess when it comes to whether Selwyn Days is guilty or not, again, open minded.

[00:33:07] [SPEAKER_00]: I tend to think that at the very least.

[00:33:11] [SPEAKER_00]: Perhaps the acquittal was warranted.

[00:33:13] [SPEAKER_00]: I think there was a lack of evidence.

[00:33:16] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think the fact that the sanctity of the confession could be so.

[00:33:22] [SPEAKER_00]: We talked a lot in the Delphi case about Richard Allen's confessions and what makes a wrongful confession and what what do those typically look like.

[00:33:29] [SPEAKER_00]: And with Richard Allen, he's on the spur of the moment to anyone who will listen and to people who don't want to hear it telling them, hey, I did this.

[00:33:38] [SPEAKER_00]: And they're basically saying, shut up, shut up.

[00:33:41] [SPEAKER_00]: And he's like, nope, I did it.

[00:33:43] [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, that's not really what you typically see with Selwyn Days.

[00:33:48] [SPEAKER_00]: He's taken in by police.

[00:33:50] [SPEAKER_00]: They're talking to him for hours.

[00:33:52] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not going to just unilaterally accuse the detectives involved in this of malfeasance because I just don't know what happened.

[00:33:59] [SPEAKER_00]: And it would be hard to know what happened because a lot of it wasn't filmed.

[00:34:02] [SPEAKER_00]: So without knowing the individuals or their histories, I'm not going to say like that.

[00:34:07] [SPEAKER_00]: That definitely is is something nefarious happened.

[00:34:11] [SPEAKER_00]: But at the very least, because we don't know, it can be hard to say.

[00:34:14] [SPEAKER_00]: And if someone is low IQ, if someone is struggling with mental illness and is being grilled for hours and hours and hours and even inadvertently things come up in that way, that's something that would be more typical of a wrongful confession.

[00:34:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Confession, not even necessarily a coerced confession, but certainly a wrongful confession where someone is saying something that they didn't do.

[00:34:39] [SPEAKER_00]: And some of the details about like him getting hit with a baseball bat just seemed like a little hard to believe.

[00:34:44] [SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[00:34:45] [SPEAKER_00]: And so I would I would say like without knowing more information now, I can understand why it ended in acquittal.

[00:34:51] [SPEAKER_00]: But I could change my mind if I really dug into it either way or become more convinced that he was definitely innocent.

[00:34:57] [SPEAKER_00]: So I guess trying to be open minded in this year of 2025 and not necessarily come down on one side or another too quickly, but noting what concerns me.

[00:35:07] [SPEAKER_00]: So, yeah.

[00:35:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Anyways, so that's Westchester for you.

[00:35:11] [SPEAKER_01]: She being skepticism alive in 2025.

[00:35:14] [SPEAKER_00]: You're welcome, everybody.

[00:35:15] [SPEAKER_00]: I just I don't know.

[00:35:17] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't I feel like there's been so many cases where I'm like, OK, I think this and then I'm like, oh, wait a minute.

[00:35:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Now I looked into it and I totally think something else.

[00:35:26] [SPEAKER_00]: So let's go to Ohio, our neighbor.

[00:35:31] [SPEAKER_00]: WKYC is the source on this one.

[00:35:34] [SPEAKER_00]: And this is a case I thought might interest you, Kevin.

[00:35:36] [SPEAKER_01]: I know in your notes that I'm looking at here, it says for Kevin.

[00:35:39] [SPEAKER_00]: For Kevin.

[00:35:40] [SPEAKER_00]: This is this is I try to pick cases that would be interesting to you and be kind of Kevin cases.

[00:35:46] [SPEAKER_00]: And this deals with some legal wrangling.

[00:35:47] [SPEAKER_00]: So a young woman named Sydney Powell from Akron was convicted of murdering her 50 year old mother, Brenda Powell.

[00:35:58] [SPEAKER_00]: She beat her in the head with an iron skillet and then stabbed her around 30 times in the neck.

[00:36:06] [SPEAKER_00]: And this occurred in 2020.

[00:36:07] [SPEAKER_00]: And so in 2022, she pled not guilty by reason of insanity.

[00:36:12] [SPEAKER_00]: I guess to start out with, can you tell us about that defense?

[00:36:17] [SPEAKER_00]: What does that mean?

[00:36:18] [SPEAKER_00]: How like are you what are you what are you what are you saying when you're saying I'm not guilty by reason of insanity?

[00:36:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Basically, if you are out of touch with reality and don't seem to have an understanding that what you're doing is wrong.

[00:36:35] [SPEAKER_00]: So like I had to kill my mom because she turned into a dragon and Satan was controlling her.

[00:36:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:36:42] [SPEAKER_00]: So you in that situation, you you're acknowledging you killed her, but you are so far removed from reality that you thought that something else was going on.

[00:36:50] [SPEAKER_00]: And so you're not guilty, not because you didn't do it, but because you're insane.

[00:36:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[00:36:55] [SPEAKER_00]: That is the legal definition.

[00:36:57] [SPEAKER_01]: You don't even have an understanding that what you did was wrong.

[00:36:59] [SPEAKER_01]: It's not a situation where if a person can be diagnosed with any mental illness whatsoever, that's a get out of jail free card.

[00:37:08] [SPEAKER_00]: So if someone's diagnosed with schizophrenia and then they get mad at their girlfriend and they lie in wait for her in her garage, gun her down, then dispose of the gun, live two years without worry, you know, without worrying about it.

[00:37:21] [SPEAKER_00]: And then they're caught.

[00:37:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Just because they have a mental illness does not mean that they can argue that.

[00:37:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Or if you have depression or something like that.

[00:37:29] [SPEAKER_00]: It has to match the circumstances.

[00:37:31] [SPEAKER_00]: And one key thing is you have to if you try to get away with it, that means you know what you did was wrong.

[00:37:37] [SPEAKER_00]: So you have to kind of go outside and be like, don't worry, everyone.

[00:37:40] [SPEAKER_00]: I took care of the dragon issue.

[00:37:41] [SPEAKER_00]: And then people will be like, OK, that person's insane.

[00:37:47] [SPEAKER_00]: It's the definition of insanity in a legal setting is not always in line with mental health professionals, nor frankly, should it be?

[00:37:56] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, like, you know what I mean?

[00:37:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, I don't think mental health is always a should always be used as an excuse in situations like this.

[00:38:03] [SPEAKER_00]: But it is very specific.

[00:38:04] [SPEAKER_00]: So.

[00:38:08] [SPEAKER_00]: I guess in this situation, she had a lot of defense witnesses say that she was insane.

[00:38:14] [SPEAKER_00]: She was like severely mentally ill and didn't know right from wrong.

[00:38:18] [SPEAKER_00]: And.

[00:38:20] [SPEAKER_00]: A jury, though, ultimately convicted her two counts of murder.

[00:38:25] [SPEAKER_00]: And then there were also assault tampering with evidence.

[00:38:27] [SPEAKER_00]: And this conviction got appealed.

[00:38:29] [SPEAKER_00]: So what they were arguing was they wanted to present some witnesses that would have rebutted the prosecution witnesses testimony that she was.

[00:38:43] [SPEAKER_00]: Kind of faking it, malingering.

[00:38:46] [SPEAKER_00]: A witness for the state said that.

[00:38:51] [SPEAKER_00]: She was exaggerating her severe mental illness.

[00:38:55] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, and that, you know, she said it made her unable to function, but that wasn't really true.

[00:39:00] [SPEAKER_00]: And they also kind of went after the defense experts for their methodology.

[00:39:04] [SPEAKER_00]: And then the trial court after the defense was like, well, we want to bring in another witness to kind of go back against the state's witness said, no, you can't do that.

[00:39:12] [SPEAKER_00]: They'd already said that we basically have heard so much testimony in this matter.

[00:39:16] [SPEAKER_00]: We don't need to hear anymore.

[00:39:17] [SPEAKER_00]: What are your thoughts on that?

[00:39:20] [SPEAKER_01]: It's very important if someone has presented evidence against you that you have the opportunity to rebut it.

[00:39:28] [SPEAKER_00]: No matter what, even if we've heard hours and hours of all of this, still got to do it.

[00:39:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and also I think it is important for judges to, you know, err on the side of protecting the rights of the defendant.

[00:39:42] [SPEAKER_01]: In the Richard Allen case, I think there were occasions where Judge Gull erred on the side of protecting Richard Allen's rights.

[00:39:50] [SPEAKER_01]: And that was for the best because it's a way to make an ultimate verdict more appeal proof.

[00:39:57] [SPEAKER_01]: So things like this don't happen.

[00:40:01] [SPEAKER_01]: If you think, well, whatever rebuttal testimony they have to offer, I don't think a jury would buy it and it's stupid.

[00:40:08] [SPEAKER_01]: You can't just say, well, let's not have it.

[00:40:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Let's have it.

[00:40:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Let's see what the other person who is an expert in this matter has to say and then let the jury reach a conclusion.

[00:40:17] [SPEAKER_01]: And if they conclude that the expert was unqualified or is just doing hogwash, they can still convict the person of the crime.

[00:40:26] [SPEAKER_00]: That's what I think.

[00:40:27] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, sometimes people who are lay people watching a trial or following it, they're like, why does the defense get to do all this?

[00:40:33] [SPEAKER_00]: But the reason is you want to give the person the best possible shot at having a fair trial where they left it all on the table, essentially.

[00:40:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Left it all in the field.

[00:40:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Left it all in the field.

[00:40:47] [SPEAKER_00]: And that doesn't mean anything goes.

[00:40:49] [SPEAKER_00]: That doesn't mean, you know, come in and say aliens actually did it.

[00:40:53] [SPEAKER_00]: But it does mean that with things like this, it seems reasonable to be able to, even if you heard a lot of testimony already, it seems reasonable if someone's raising that level of doubt on someone's mental health claims.

[00:41:03] [SPEAKER_00]: That someone come in and say, no, actually, this is why it's right.

[00:41:06] [SPEAKER_00]: I think that that would have been fair.

[00:41:09] [SPEAKER_00]: So you can understand why subsequently this conviction was overturned.

[00:41:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[00:41:16] [SPEAKER_00]: So she she also appealed based on.

[00:41:22] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, it the trial shouldn't have allowed gruesome photos and testimony and that that was rejected.

[00:41:28] [SPEAKER_00]: So was it was against the weight of the evidence and, you know, amendments of the Constitution.

[00:41:35] [SPEAKER_00]: They were like, no.

[00:41:36] [SPEAKER_00]: But in terms of not letting this one witness this rebuttal situation to go on, they they did agree with that.

[00:41:42] [SPEAKER_01]: And I'd say that's also normal when a defense attorney or more specifically when an appellate attorney files a case.

[00:41:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. Just make as many arguments that you think are plausible and including, oh, I think this word goes against the weight of the evidence.

[00:41:58] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, what have you got to lose?

[00:42:00] [SPEAKER_01]: You make all of your arguments and see what works and what doesn't.

[00:42:03] [SPEAKER_00]: You like, you know, you shoot like scattershot.

[00:42:05] [SPEAKER_00]: So then one might hit the bullseye.

[00:42:08] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:42:10] [SPEAKER_00]: And so it seems like now she might get, I guess, a second trial.

[00:42:15] [SPEAKER_00]: If a conviction is overturned, I imagine unless the state declines to press charges, then a second trial would be incoming.

[00:42:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[00:42:22] [SPEAKER_00]: So she's cleared that hurdle.

[00:42:24] [SPEAKER_00]: We've talked about how second trials are often somewhat rare.

[00:42:27] [SPEAKER_00]: And so this would be a situation where I think we would anticipate one, especially if the case in the crime was that brutal.

[00:42:34] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't see the state necessarily just being like, well.

[00:42:38] [SPEAKER_00]: Go out of society.

[00:42:40] [SPEAKER_01]: It's probably worth noting that if you are a defendant and you've been convicted and you file a successful appeal, that doesn't raise double jeopardy.

[00:42:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Because the verdict was tossed out because of your actions.

[00:42:53] [SPEAKER_00]: No.

[00:42:54] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:42:54] [SPEAKER_00]: That's you just get a second shot of possibly getting an acquittal.

[00:42:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:42:59] [SPEAKER_01]: And at the top of the show, of course, you talked about a case where like I had about five trials, you said.

[00:43:05] [SPEAKER_00]: Like I had five trials, two convictions, two mistrials, one acquittal.

[00:43:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Here in Indiana, there was a famous case where I believe a man named David Cam was charged with the murder of his family.

[00:43:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Didn't he get three trials?

[00:43:16] [SPEAKER_00]: Three trials.

[00:43:17] [SPEAKER_01]: And he was ultimately acquitted.

[00:43:18] [SPEAKER_00]: It was what?

[00:43:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Conviction, conviction, both thrown out.

[00:43:21] [SPEAKER_00]: Acquittal.

[00:43:23] [SPEAKER_00]: So that can happen.

[00:43:24] [SPEAKER_00]: It's not – that doesn't violate double jeopardy.

[00:43:26] [SPEAKER_00]: But once you get an acquittal, it's over.

[00:43:28] [SPEAKER_00]: It's over.

[00:43:29] [SPEAKER_00]: So now let's go to New Jersey.

[00:43:31] [SPEAKER_00]: This is a very disturbing case.

[00:43:33] [SPEAKER_00]: And my source for it was NJ.com.

[00:43:37] [SPEAKER_00]: This is a man – this was actually an appeal that did not work out.

[00:43:42] [SPEAKER_00]: So we have to go back to 2019 for this one.

[00:43:47] [SPEAKER_00]: A man named Kenneth Saul, he worked with a young woman named Carolyn Byington.

[00:43:55] [SPEAKER_00]: We actually did another case involving Anita Byington, and we interviewed her sister Christina Byington.

[00:44:00] [SPEAKER_00]: But I –

[00:44:00] [SPEAKER_01]: No relation as far as we know.

[00:44:02] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't believe there's any relation here.

[00:44:06] [SPEAKER_00]: But, you know, he's a young man.

[00:44:08] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, he's a man with – I think he was, you know, in his 30s at this time.

[00:44:12] [SPEAKER_00]: He had a wife.

[00:44:13] [SPEAKER_00]: He had a very young baby child.

[00:44:17] [SPEAKER_00]: And there was this marketing firm that he worked at, Engine U.S., and that is in West Windsor, New Jersey.

[00:44:24] [SPEAKER_00]: And Byington worked with him there.

[00:44:27] [SPEAKER_00]: She was a very bright and caring young woman, like very much beloved by people in her life.

[00:44:35] [SPEAKER_00]: She graduated from Lafayette College in 2015, majoring in anthropology, sociology, and international relations.

[00:44:42] [SPEAKER_00]: International affairs, rather.

[00:44:44] [SPEAKER_00]: She was very into volunteering and was just great.

[00:44:52] [SPEAKER_00]: And so Saul became, I guess, obsessed with her.

[00:44:57] [SPEAKER_00]: And he took that obsession to a kind of a horrific degree.

[00:45:06] [SPEAKER_00]: Now, Byington was a market research project manager.

[00:45:10] [SPEAKER_00]: He was an accountant.

[00:45:11] [SPEAKER_00]: He managed while she was at work to steal her key, get a copy of it, and then break into her apartment in Plainsboro, New Jersey, in May of 2019 and put cameras there so he could stalk her and watch her, which is just horrifying.

[00:45:28] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, like just such a violation of one's privacy.

[00:45:32] [SPEAKER_00]: There was obviously something incredibly wrong with this person.

[00:45:39] [SPEAKER_00]: When Carolyn came back to her apartment, she didn't notice these.

[00:45:43] [SPEAKER_00]: But then he decided he wanted to get more angles of her.

[00:45:46] [SPEAKER_00]: So he went back on June 10th, 2019, and he was installing more cameras when she returned unexpectedly on her lunch break.

[00:45:55] [SPEAKER_00]: And she instead I mean, he the judge would note this later, but he could have just run out or pushed her away or, you know, kind of dealt with the consequences of his actions, his horrible actions.

[00:46:05] [SPEAKER_00]: But instead he decided to attack her.

[00:46:09] [SPEAKER_00]: This was an incredibly brutal, brutal attack, a sustained attack.

[00:46:13] [SPEAKER_00]: She fought for her life.

[00:46:14] [SPEAKER_00]: He ended up killing her with a screwdriver, which is just, again, horrible.

[00:46:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Like you going back expecting to be safe in your apartment and your co-worker is there who, I mean, just awful.

[00:46:27] [SPEAKER_00]: So employees who worked with him immediately noticed a strange behavior change.

[00:46:31] [SPEAKER_00]: He seemed different after this.

[00:46:38] [SPEAKER_00]: He was ultimately arrested and charged with the case.

[00:46:44] [SPEAKER_00]: But this doesn't end there.

[00:46:47] [SPEAKER_00]: He went to one of his fellow inmates before his trial and offered to pay them $15,000 to do one of the following things.

[00:46:56] [SPEAKER_00]: One, stage a similar murder of a young, attractive woman and leave a note saying, I also did the Byington murder.

[00:47:06] [SPEAKER_00]: Or two, go to two case witnesses or possible early persons of interest.

[00:47:14] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, I don't know what that means.

[00:47:16] [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe like a boyfriend, maybe.

[00:47:17] [SPEAKER_00]: And kill them, but make it look like a suicide and leave a note taking responsibility for the Byington murders.

[00:47:27] [SPEAKER_00]: Do you know what that reminded me of?

[00:47:29] [SPEAKER_01]: What?

[00:47:30] [SPEAKER_00]: The Craig case out of Colorado where we had this James Craig dentist, you know, thinks he's a criminal genius who is like, you know what I'll do?

[00:47:40] [SPEAKER_00]: I'll hire someone to kill the detective on the case.

[00:47:43] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, yeah, that's going to work out and gets busted immediately and hit with a solicitation charge on top of everything.

[00:47:49] [SPEAKER_00]: So.

[00:47:51] [SPEAKER_00]: I've always said I don't really trust inmate witnesses all the time.

[00:47:57] [SPEAKER_00]: There can be incentives for people.

[00:48:00] [SPEAKER_00]: That's not the case here because the inmate ended up wearing a wire and recording this guy saying like, yeah, let's do this.

[00:48:09] [SPEAKER_00]: I want to have this scheme to get away with it.

[00:48:10] [SPEAKER_00]: So after that whole thing came out, he ended up pleading guilty to everything.

[00:48:16] [SPEAKER_01]: You mentioned he appealed.

[00:48:17] [SPEAKER_01]: What was the basis of the appeal?

[00:48:19] [SPEAKER_00]: He appealed the sentence.

[00:48:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Ah.

[00:48:22] [SPEAKER_00]: So he ended up appealing the sentence and we saw this.

[00:48:25] [SPEAKER_01]: What was the sentence?

[00:48:27] [SPEAKER_00]: He was sentenced to 55 years to life.

[00:48:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[00:48:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Because, yeah, it was 55 year prison sentence.

[00:48:36] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it looks like 55 year prison sentence.

[00:48:39] [SPEAKER_00]: And the appellate court.

[00:48:41] [SPEAKER_00]: So he did this on the on the basis of the search warrants in the case and the sentence.

[00:48:46] [SPEAKER_00]: And the appellate courts ruled against him.

[00:48:48] [SPEAKER_00]: So they said the evidence is supported by the probable cause.

[00:48:52] [SPEAKER_00]: And the prison terms were completely fair with what he did.

[00:48:54] [SPEAKER_01]: So out of luck.

[00:48:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Next.

[00:48:56] [SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.

[00:48:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Just what a scumbag.

[00:48:58] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, like, you know what I mean?

[00:48:59] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, I just I don't know.

[00:49:00] [SPEAKER_00]: People who kill other people, women, children, other men for their own weird, sick, sexual stuff just disgusts me.

[00:49:10] [SPEAKER_00]: I just like I don't know.

[00:49:10] [SPEAKER_00]: I just feel like that's the lowest type of person.

[00:49:14] [SPEAKER_00]: So that's just that's just my take.

[00:49:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Going out on a limb there.

[00:49:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I just I don't know.

[00:49:19] [SPEAKER_00]: It pisses me off.

[00:49:20] [SPEAKER_00]: It's like this young woman had her whole life ahead.

[00:49:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Now her family has to suffer and she doesn't get to be around anymore because this guy couldn't like, you know, I don't know, figure out his own.

[00:49:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Plus he had a wife and a young child.

[00:49:30] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, people.

[00:49:31] [SPEAKER_00]: I just like they're just lower than animals.

[00:49:35] [SPEAKER_00]: People who do this.

[00:49:36] [SPEAKER_00]: So now let's go to another case that I picked out for you.

[00:49:39] [SPEAKER_00]: My sources for this were the trace NBC Chicago and Philly Burbs dot coms that are Pennsylvania.

[00:49:46] [SPEAKER_00]: And I you always seem very interested in self-defense cases, cases where you say someone didn't go out to kill somebody, but that's what ended up happening.

[00:49:54] [SPEAKER_01]: What's this one?

[00:49:55] [SPEAKER_00]: This is a controversial and complicated one.

[00:49:57] [SPEAKER_00]: So it involves 41 year old Maurice Bird as well as 37 year old Steven Strasburg.

[00:50:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Mr. Bird is African-American.

[00:50:06] [SPEAKER_00]: He is black.

[00:50:07] [SPEAKER_00]: And Steven Strasburg is white.

[00:50:09] [SPEAKER_00]: That's important because of some of the stuff that goes down here.

[00:50:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, so they had a history of problems with each other.

[00:50:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, there in 2022 alone, there were like three police responses to the area.

[00:50:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, Strasburg lived in an apartment above Bird's barbershop, Razor Reese's salon and spa.

[00:50:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, and, uh, in Hatboro, Pennsylvania.

[00:50:36] [SPEAKER_00]: And so police basically would come out.

[00:50:39] [SPEAKER_00]: It seemed to arise because Strasburg had been told by a landlord he could use a parking space that Bird thought was his by right for his customers.

[00:50:47] [SPEAKER_00]: So they, they have this dispute.

[00:50:49] [SPEAKER_00]: It kind of keeps going and, um, police keep getting called.

[00:50:52] [SPEAKER_00]: Police keep telling them to stop contacting each other.

[00:50:55] [SPEAKER_00]: Stop talking to each other.

[00:50:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Just stop it.

[00:50:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Which obviously doesn't seem like super effective when there's like an ongoing issue like that.

[00:51:03] [SPEAKER_00]: So one day Bird calls the police, calls 911 at 945.

[00:51:08] [SPEAKER_00]: He says that Strasburg is coming up and verbally assaulting him.

[00:51:12] [SPEAKER_00]: And also not just that, but getting very aggressive and using racial slurs, notably the N word.

[00:51:18] [SPEAKER_00]: And, um, is getting in his face, grabbing his shirt, looks up like he's about to punch him, kind of holding his fist back.

[00:51:25] [SPEAKER_00]: I believe there were kind of maybe some instances perhaps that came out later where he did punch him.

[00:51:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, and, uh, the dispatcher then hears five gunshots, a pause, two more gunshots.

[00:51:39] [SPEAKER_00]: So, um, Bird kills Strasburg with his 9mm Smith & Wesson semi-automatic, a gun that he is legally allowed to own.

[00:51:49] [SPEAKER_00]: He's got a valid permit.

[00:51:50] [SPEAKER_00]: That is his gun.

[00:51:51] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, there's nothing illegal about it.

[00:51:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, Bird has now been charged with first degree murder, third degree murder, and, um, possessing an instrument, I guess, of, of, of death or whatever.

[00:52:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, and people are noting, like, you know, I don't know, like, could this be a case of standing your ground?

[00:52:14] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, is this a viable self-defense?

[00:52:19] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, I know people in this Trace article that kind of goes into some depth were talking, you know, public defenders and defense attorneys were saying, like, it seems like a pretty clear self-defense case.

[00:52:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, if Strasburg is being so aggressive and is also, you know, kind of so erratic that he's, like, yelling racial slurs, you know, kind of doesn't really speak to someone who's super rational or, you know, gonna do anything good.

[00:52:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, but, um, but what the, uh, Montgomery County prosecutor who's taking this on, Samantha Coffman, is saying that, um, you know, Bird threatened to shoot this guy.

[00:52:54] [SPEAKER_00]: He was unarmed.

[00:52:54] [SPEAKER_00]: He threatened to shoot him before dialing 911.

[00:52:58] [SPEAKER_00]: He kind of egged on the conflict.

[00:53:00] [SPEAKER_00]: He didn't retreat.

[00:53:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, the counter to that is that, uh, Bird is a veteran and has a leg injury where maybe it would make it harder to retreat than someone who maybe didn't have that.

[00:53:13] [SPEAKER_00]: So, I don't know.

[00:53:14] [SPEAKER_00]: What are your thoughts?

[00:53:15] [SPEAKER_00]: It's complicated.

[00:53:16] [SPEAKER_01]: I guess I would have to take a close look at the self-defense statute in, uh, is this Pennsylvania you said?

[00:53:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Yep.

[00:53:25] [SPEAKER_01]: In order to determine that.

[00:53:26] [SPEAKER_01]: If, if the self-defense statute says, well, you have a valid claim of self-defense if A, B, C, or D is met.

[00:53:36] [SPEAKER_01]: And if you look at this case and it is not clear if A, B, C, or D is met, then it doesn't feel like the prosecutor has a choice, but they have to file.

[00:53:46] [SPEAKER_01]: And if you only get to claim, uh, stand your ground if you have tried to retreat and this man didn't, then ultimately it's a question for the jury.

[00:53:59] [SPEAKER_00]: The defense has characterized it as Strasburg chasing Bird around and Bird trying to get away from him at some point, but I have not reviewed the video, so I don't know either.

[00:54:09] [SPEAKER_00]: What, uh, the trace article defined Pennsylvania's stand your ground law as saying a person acting lawfully in a public space who is attacked by someone without a weapon must first attempt to retreat before using deadly force.

[00:54:22] [SPEAKER_00]: So, a lot of this does come back to the timing.

[00:54:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Personally, this is my own bias, probably speaking, but, um, a, you know, a veteran who owns his own business and is sort of being attacked on racial grounds like Mr. Bird probably has more sympathy, more than, more than Strasburg in this situation, who seems to have been the aggressor here in this instance, at least.

[00:54:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, and again, you know, is getting in his face and possibly throwing punches and whatever.

[00:54:52] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, I would, you know, it, it feels like at some point things kind of fall under the, you know, play stupid games, win stupid prizes, you know, motif.

[00:55:03] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, I guess I don't feel like Mr. Bird going to prison for the rest of his life really benefits the community in any situation.

[00:55:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Although I don't necessarily, I think you're right, the, the, based on the facts, the prosecutor's office may not have much of a choice.

[00:55:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Although you would kind of hope in some instances there might be some kind of like deal to be worked out where, you know, it acknowledges the seriousness of what happened.

[00:55:27] [SPEAKER_00]: A human life was taken and, and Strasburg was a father, you know, I mean, he, he had a life, even if he was, you know, doing things we can all disagree with.

[00:55:35] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, maybe acknowledging the life lost without necessarily wrecking another life sort of needlessly.

[00:55:41] [SPEAKER_00]: That's just my take.

[00:55:42] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.

[00:55:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Just your two cents.

[00:55:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:55:46] [SPEAKER_00]: I think it would really depend on like a lot of the videos and things like that.

[00:55:50] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, but again, I mean, if you're, if you're going.

[00:55:53] [SPEAKER_01]: It seems to be a question of facts and questions of facts are ultimately intended to be settled by the jury.

[00:56:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Based on what you, you've told me, which if I understand correctly comes largely from the perspective of defense attorneys.

[00:56:11] [SPEAKER_01]: If that is accurate and true, and I was a member of that jury, I would probably be disinclined to convict.

[00:56:17] [SPEAKER_01]: But that still doesn't mean that the prosecution is necessarily wrong or incorrect to file the charges.

[00:56:23] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's, it's serious enough.

[00:56:25] [SPEAKER_00]: And, and, you know, you do, you don't want.

[00:56:26] [SPEAKER_01]: It's a human life.

[00:56:27] [SPEAKER_00]: You don't want vigilante justice either.

[00:56:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[00:56:29] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, that's, that's, that's a mess.

[00:56:32] [SPEAKER_00]: But, um, you know, I think, uh, it, it does, it does feel like, you know, I don't know.

[00:56:40] [SPEAKER_00]: There's this kind of indication that this might be a sympathetic defendant where people, you know, might kind of take that into consideration.

[00:56:48] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, I don't know what's going to happen, but, uh, it's definitely tragic.

[00:56:53] [SPEAKER_00]: One interesting thing is I know one of Strasburg's cousins was out in the press talking about how Bird was really the aggressor here and whatnot and would threaten him in notes and show him his gun.

[00:57:00] [SPEAKER_00]: But if that's the case, then I don't know why Strasburg would, like, go and pick a fight and, like, pretend to be about to punch him a few times.

[00:57:06] [SPEAKER_00]: That seems pretty stupid.

[00:57:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, but, yeah.

[00:57:10] [SPEAKER_00]: But I guess, honestly, a lot of these disputes are just ultimately stupid.

[00:57:13] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, people getting killed over a parking space at the end of the day is, like, not, not a good thing.

[00:57:18] [SPEAKER_00]: And sometimes I wish there were, I don't know, like, there, there needs to be, like, people need to be, like, if neighbors are feuding to that point, there almost needs to be some kind of, like, way that that's diverted or mediated before it gets to this point.

[00:57:33] [SPEAKER_00]: Because I see that we see this in a lot of cases where there's just these stupid property disputes that somehow end up in people lying on the ground dead.

[00:57:40] [SPEAKER_01]: And we cover the Randy Small case.

[00:57:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Mm-hmm.

[00:57:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Wasn't that a mailbox?

[00:57:44] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:57:45] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's, like, maybe.

[00:57:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Arguing over a mailbox and it was a man getting killed and another man spending decades in prison.

[00:57:49] [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe just pushing them into some sort of small claims court situation would, would have been the way to go or, like, kind of figuring it out in some way.

[00:57:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Some sort of mediation feels like, uh, you don't want, you don't want to, you know, one person has their life ruined, one person's dead.

[00:58:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[00:58:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Anyways, well, that is all for.

[00:58:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Trying to make the awkward, uh, transition from serious matters of life and death to matters of apparel.

[00:58:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Nonsense.

[00:58:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Of apparel.

[00:58:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:58:18] [SPEAKER_00]: And, uh, advertising strategies.

[00:58:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Do it.

[00:58:23] [SPEAKER_00]: Do you like shirts?

[00:58:26] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, we've got a shirt for you.

[00:58:28] [SPEAKER_00]: This is the Murder Sheet People t-shirt.

[00:58:30] [SPEAKER_00]: It's got our logo on it.

[00:58:32] [SPEAKER_00]: It's a beautiful black t-shirt with, um, our logo on it.

[00:58:36] [SPEAKER_00]: And it says Murder Sheet People to designate you as a Murder Sheet person.

[00:58:41] [SPEAKER_00]: And, um, you know, presumably if you're listening to this show, that's how you consider yourself.

[00:58:45] [SPEAKER_00]: That's how you view yourself in this world.

[00:58:47] [SPEAKER_00]: And you can purchase it at murdersheetshop.com and, um, our patrons on Patreon get a free shipping discount.

[00:58:56] [SPEAKER_01]: That's the best you can do.

[00:58:58] [SPEAKER_00]: What the hell was the problem with that?

[00:59:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, shouldn't we, like, uh, tout them a bit?

[00:59:03] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, oh, oh, excuse me.

[00:59:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Like, like after Christmas.

[00:59:06] [SPEAKER_00]: You just want me to say something ridiculous so you can make fun of me about it.

[00:59:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, after Christmas, maybe you didn't get all the gifts you wanted.

[00:59:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe, maybe somebody didn't give you what you really, really wanted, but maybe somebody gave you, uh, a little bit of cash.

[00:59:19] [SPEAKER_01]: A little bit of that folding money.

[00:59:20] [SPEAKER_00]: I think so.

[00:59:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, you can, you can get what you wanted by just, uh, not, it's not too late.

[00:59:25] [SPEAKER_01]: It can be a late Christmas gift to yourself or the little kitties.

[00:59:29] [SPEAKER_01]: The little children, the little children may be disappointed they didn't get, uh, their Murder Sheet t-shirts.

[00:59:34] [SPEAKER_01]: It's not too late.

[00:59:36] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[00:59:36] [SPEAKER_01]: You don't have to, you don't have to just buy t-shirts for the Christmas season.

[00:59:40] [SPEAKER_01]: You can buy t-shirts year round.

[00:59:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Let me just emphatically say this.

[00:59:44] [SPEAKER_00]: Children should not be listening to this program.

[00:59:45] [SPEAKER_00]: We're talking about some very heavy stuff.

[00:59:47] [SPEAKER_00]: Some very disturbing stuff.

[00:59:49] [SPEAKER_00]: So if you're a kid and you're listening, come back later.

[00:59:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[00:59:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Like when you're older, this is not appropriate.

[00:59:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Anya thinks it's good business to discourage potential new listeners.

[00:59:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:59:58] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't want to traumatize children by talking about murder.

[01:00:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Look how we turned out.

[01:00:02] [SPEAKER_00]: We got into true crime way too early.

[01:00:04] [SPEAKER_00]: And now look at us.

[01:00:05] [SPEAKER_00]: Look at us.

[01:00:06] [SPEAKER_01]: We're happily married.

[01:00:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Having a very pleasant life.

[01:00:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[01:00:12] [SPEAKER_01]: So maybe that could happen to your child if you got them interested in true crime.

[01:00:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Where are they on?

[01:00:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Or they could be very disturbed and upset by it.

[01:00:21] [SPEAKER_00]: And I don't, I don't think we want to encourage children listening to murder shows.

[01:00:26] [SPEAKER_00]: But anyways.

[01:00:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Even if you don't want a child to listen to a murder show, you can still buy them a shirt.

[01:00:32] [SPEAKER_01]: You need to clothe the children.

[01:00:34] [SPEAKER_00]: You're so weird.

[01:00:36] [SPEAKER_01]: You don't want the children to go out there just shivering in the cold, do you?

[01:00:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Is that what you advocate?

[01:00:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Do you want children shivering in the cold on the streets of this great nation?

[01:00:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Your ad stinks.

[01:00:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Your ad is ridiculous.

[01:00:46] [SPEAKER_00]: My ad was competent, professional, got the information out there.

[01:00:49] [SPEAKER_00]: You just went in and just blew it.

[01:00:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, and I should also mention that a terrific listener, I don't know if he wants to be named

[01:01:00] [SPEAKER_01]: in this context.

[01:01:01] [SPEAKER_01]: He was going to go and get a t-shirt from this website.

[01:01:05] [SPEAKER_01]: And when he clicked on the link, he got a message saying, if you go to this site, your

[01:01:10] [SPEAKER_01]: computer will explode and millions will die.

[01:01:12] [SPEAKER_01]: But that's not true.

[01:01:14] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know why that happened.

[01:01:16] [SPEAKER_00]: We're asking the people who run the website.

[01:01:19] [SPEAKER_01]: When I went there, I did not get that message.

[01:01:21] [SPEAKER_01]: But if you go there and get a crazy message.

[01:01:24] [SPEAKER_00]: If you have like an ad blocker maybe or something like that, maybe it just kind of pops up.

[01:01:28] [SPEAKER_00]: But there's nothing wrong with the website, you know, that we know about.

[01:01:34] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think millions will die.

[01:01:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Unless you got in there and did something with the code.

[01:01:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Because you secretly.

[01:01:38] [SPEAKER_01]: I hacked it.

[01:01:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Anya wants to hoard the shirts forever.

[01:01:42] [SPEAKER_00]: What am I, like a weird shirt dragon?

[01:01:44] [SPEAKER_00]: That's not true.

[01:01:45] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't want to hoard the shirts forever.

[01:01:48] [SPEAKER_01]: So for like Christmas, Anya gave me 10 shirts and I gave her 11 shirts.

[01:01:54] [SPEAKER_01]: That was our holiday.

[01:01:55] [SPEAKER_00]: That was our gift of the Magi situation.

[01:02:01] [SPEAKER_00]: What a mess.

[01:02:02] [SPEAKER_00]: I, I, I, where, you brought this, you brought the advertising off the rails.

[01:02:09] [SPEAKER_00]: That's on you, sir.

[01:02:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I'm filled with regret and contrition.

[01:02:15] [SPEAKER_00]: And a love for these shirts.

[01:02:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Which I like to pass on to the listeners.

[01:02:20] [SPEAKER_01]: What a great way to start the new year with a new garment.

[01:02:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Isn't that a great way?

[01:02:28] [SPEAKER_01]: It's a new year.

[01:02:29] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to treat myself and I'm going to get a new garment.

[01:02:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[01:02:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Treat yourself.

[01:02:35] [SPEAKER_00]: That's what 2025 is all about.

[01:02:37] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[01:02:38] [SPEAKER_00]: And you'll look cool.

[01:02:39] [SPEAKER_01]: You can wear this shirt in December.

[01:02:40] [SPEAKER_01]: You can wear it in January.

[01:02:42] [SPEAKER_01]: All the months in between.

[01:02:43] [SPEAKER_00]: We'll never tell you not to wear the shirt.

[01:02:45] [SPEAKER_00]: No matter.

[01:02:46] [SPEAKER_00]: Anya might.

[01:02:46] [SPEAKER_00]: No matter what month it might be.

[01:02:48] [SPEAKER_00]: Anya might.

[01:02:49] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, for our adult listeners, they can do what they want.

[01:02:52] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm just concerned about you trying to like hawk this to kids when it's like, again.

[01:02:56] [SPEAKER_01]: When you talk about adult listeners, it's like, is Murder Street After Dark?

[01:02:58] [SPEAKER_00]: No, it's not Murder Street After Dark.

[01:03:02] [SPEAKER_00]: What would that even be?

[01:03:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I have some ideas.

[01:03:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe we can talk about it later.

[01:03:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Between the Seeds.

[01:03:10] [SPEAKER_00]: That's our sexy podcast.

[01:03:12] [SPEAKER_00]: No, no, there is no sexy podcast.

[01:03:14] [SPEAKER_00]: Just think this is it's all this.

[01:03:17] [SPEAKER_00]: This is Kevin's doing.

[01:03:19] [SPEAKER_00]: This is all your fault.

[01:03:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Let's end this.

[01:03:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Hit the button.

[01:03:21] [SPEAKER_00]: Get the hell out of here.

[01:03:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet.

[01:03:25] [SPEAKER_01]: If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us at murdersheet at gmail dot com.

[01:03:33] [SPEAKER_01]: If you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[01:03:43] [SPEAKER_00]: If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com slash murdersheet.

[01:03:53] [SPEAKER_00]: If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www.buymeacoffee.com slash murdersheet.

[01:04:03] [SPEAKER_00]: We very much appreciate any support.

[01:04:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet, and who you can find on the web at kevintg.com.

[01:04:16] [SPEAKER_00]: If you're looking to talk with other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook.

[01:04:24] [SPEAKER_00]: We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much.

[01:04:30] [SPEAKER_00]: We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages.

[01:04:37] [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks again for listening.

[01:04:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Before we wrap up this episode, can we take just a moment to say a few more words about our great new sponsor, Acorns?

[01:04:47] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, thanks so much to Acorns.

[01:04:49] [SPEAKER_00]: Remember, when you support our sponsors, you're supporting us, and our sponsors make it possible for us to do this job, so we really appreciate them.

[01:04:56] [SPEAKER_01]: We love our sponsors.

[01:04:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.

[01:04:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Acorns is a terrific investing app.

[01:04:59] [SPEAKER_00]: It's the perfect thing for somebody who wants to get started with their personal finance journey.

[01:05:05] [SPEAKER_00]: That can seem daunting.

[01:05:06] [SPEAKER_00]: It is daunting.

[01:05:08] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm so not financially minded.

[01:05:10] [SPEAKER_00]: For me, it's always really hard to get started with something like this, where you're like, what am I doing?

[01:05:15] [SPEAKER_00]: But Acorns sort of takes the guesswork out of that.

[01:05:19] [SPEAKER_00]: It gets you started, and it will essentially help you take control of your financial future.

[01:05:25] [SPEAKER_00]: You can get set up pretty quickly, and it allows you to start automatically saving and investing.

[01:05:30] [SPEAKER_00]: That money can help you, your kids, if you have a family, your retirement.

[01:05:35] [SPEAKER_00]: And you don't need to be rich.

[01:05:36] [SPEAKER_00]: You don't need to be an expert to do this.

[01:05:38] [SPEAKER_00]: It's very simple.

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[01:05:43] [SPEAKER_00]: It's not like you need to put in some massive payment.

[01:05:45] [SPEAKER_00]: So it's a great fit for people who are starting out, but they want to take the next step and improve themselves financially and make their money work for them more.

[01:05:56] [SPEAKER_00]: So if you're interested, head to acorns.com slash msheet or download the Acorns app to start saving and investing for your future today.

[01:06:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Paid non-client endorsement.

[01:06:05] [SPEAKER_00]: Compensation provides incentive to positively promote Acorns.

[01:06:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Tier 1 compensation provided.

[01:06:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Investing involved risk.

[01:06:10] [SPEAKER_00]: Acorns Advisors LLC and SEC Registered Investment Advisor.

[01:06:13] [SPEAKER_00]: View important disclosures at acorns.com slash msheet.

[01:06:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Before we go, we just wanted to say another few words about VIA.

[01:06:21] [SPEAKER_01]: This is really a wonderful product.

[01:06:22] [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's really helped both of us get a lot better rest.

[01:06:25] [SPEAKER_00]: VIA is pretty much, I guess you'd say, the only lifestyle hemp brand out there.

[01:06:29] [SPEAKER_00]: So what does that mean?

[01:06:30] [SPEAKER_00]: It means that they're all about crafting different products to elicit different moods.

[01:06:35] [SPEAKER_00]: Kevin and I really like their non-THC CBD products.

[01:06:39] [SPEAKER_00]: Specifically, Zen really helps me fall asleep.

[01:06:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Some Zen can really just kind of help me get more into that state where I can relax and fall asleep pretty easily.

[01:06:48] [SPEAKER_00]: And they've been such a wonderful support to us.

[01:06:51] [SPEAKER_00]: They're a longtime sponsor.

[01:06:52] [SPEAKER_00]: We really love working with them, and they really make this show possible.

[01:06:55] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to say this.

[01:06:56] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, you may not realize this, but when you support our sponsors, you're supporting us.

[01:07:00] [SPEAKER_00]: And it kind of makes it possible for us to do this show.

[01:07:03] [SPEAKER_00]: So if you or one of your loved ones is interested in trying some of this stuff, you're going to get a great deal.

[01:07:09] [SPEAKER_00]: It's very high quality, high value.

[01:07:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Anya, if I wanted to give this discount you speak of, what do I do?

[01:07:15] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, if you're 21 and older, head to Viahemp.com and use the code MSHEET to receive 15% off.

[01:07:22] [SPEAKER_00]: And if you're new to Viah, get a free gift of your choice.

[01:07:25] [SPEAKER_00]: That's V-I-I-A, hemp.com, and use code MSHEET at checkout.

[01:07:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Spell the code.

[01:07:31] [SPEAKER_00]: M-S-H-E-E-T.

[01:07:33] [SPEAKER_00]: And after you purchase, they're going to ask you, hey, where did you hear about us?

[01:07:37] [SPEAKER_00]: Say the murder sheet because then it lets them know that our ads are effective, and it really helps us out.

[01:07:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Can we talk a little bit before we go about Quintz, a great new sponsor for us?

[01:07:50] [SPEAKER_01]: I think in one of the ads that we've already done for them, we talked about the compliments I'm getting on my jacket.

[01:07:57] [SPEAKER_01]: I know you're a very modest woman, but can we talk about the compliments you're getting on the Quintz products you wear?

[01:08:03] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I've got two of their Mongolian cashmere sweaters.

[01:08:06] [SPEAKER_00]: They're a brand that just does this sort of luxurious products but without the crazy costs really well.

[01:08:13] [SPEAKER_00]: They give you Italian leather handbags.

[01:08:17] [SPEAKER_00]: They do like European linen sheets.

[01:08:20] [SPEAKER_00]: You have a really cool suede jacket.

[01:08:22] [SPEAKER_00]: And I really like the way I look in my sweaters.

[01:08:25] [SPEAKER_00]: I like the way you look in your bomber jacket.

[01:08:27] [SPEAKER_00]: It looks super cool.

[01:08:28] [SPEAKER_01]: You've gotten a lot of compliments when you go out wearing these sweaters.

[01:08:31] [SPEAKER_00]: I think I have, yeah.

[01:08:33] [SPEAKER_01]: And deservedly so.

[01:08:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Also, like I'm one of those people, my skin is very, like, you know, like I'm kind of sensitive.

[01:08:38] [SPEAKER_00]: So when it comes to wearing sweaters, like, you know, sometimes it's something's too scratchy.

[01:08:44] [SPEAKER_00]: Like it really bothers me.

[01:08:45] [SPEAKER_00]: These are so soft.

[01:08:46] [SPEAKER_00]: They're just like very delicate and soft and make it.

[01:08:49] [SPEAKER_00]: They're wearing them is lovely because they're super comfortable.

[01:08:52] [SPEAKER_00]: You're not you're not.

[01:08:53] [SPEAKER_00]: It's not one of those things where you're like you buy and it looks great, but it doesn't feel that great.

[01:08:57] [SPEAKER_00]: They look great.

[01:08:58] [SPEAKER_00]: They feel great.

[01:08:59] [SPEAKER_00]: But, yeah, I really love them.

[01:09:00] [SPEAKER_00]: And you got, you know, your cool jacket.

[01:09:02] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, that's a little bit of a you're the guy who, like, wears the same thing all the time.

[01:09:06] [SPEAKER_00]: So this was a bit of a gamble for you, a bit of a risk.

[01:09:08] [SPEAKER_00]: You got something a bit different.

[01:09:10] [SPEAKER_01]: I do wash my clothes.

[01:09:11] [SPEAKER_00]: I know you wash your clothes, but I mean, you're filthy.

[01:09:15] [SPEAKER_01]: You just made me sound awful.

[01:09:16] [SPEAKER_01]: So, no, I wash my clothes.

[01:09:18] [SPEAKER_00]: But you don't really you don't really experiment with fashion that much is what I'm saying.

[01:09:23] [SPEAKER_00]: So this is a little bit out of the norm for you, but I think you really like it and it looks good.

[01:09:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.

[01:09:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Great products.

[01:09:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Incredible prices.

[01:09:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.

[01:09:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Quince.com.

[01:09:32] [SPEAKER_00]: There you go.

[01:09:33] [SPEAKER_00]: So you can go to Quince.com slash Msheet.

[01:09:36] [SPEAKER_00]: And right now they're offering 365 day returns plus free shipping on your order.

[01:09:40] [SPEAKER_00]: So it's Quince.com slash Msheet.

[01:09:43] [SPEAKER_00]: That's Quince.com slash M-S-H-E-E-T.