The Cheat Sheet: Sympathy and Surveillance States

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_02] He shoots, he scores! Misses.

[00:00:09] [SPEAKER_05] I'm Renee with Service Specialties. Basketball isn't our expertise, but your home comfort is. Call Service Specialties for all your heating, cooling and plumbing needs.

[00:00:18] [SPEAKER_03] Your home's comfort is our expertise. Call Service Specialties. Service Specialties.

[00:00:30] [SPEAKER_07] I'm Anya and today on The Cheat Sheet we're going to be going to Indiana, our home state, West Virginia, London, England and Texas. Content warning, this episode contains discussion of murder and violence as well as the controversial topic of abortion. So today on The Cheat Sheet we're going to some places we've been before, namely Indiana.

[00:00:56] [SPEAKER_07] We've been to West Virginia, we've been to Texas, but then sadly we've never been to London, England, even though I think it would be a very cool place to visit. Definitely on my bucket list, but we've never, we, I've been to the United Kingdom, technically, but I've not been to London.

[00:01:15] [SPEAKER_00] Are you talking about you as an individual or The Cheat Sheet as an entity? Because I'm pretty sure...

[00:01:20] [SPEAKER_07] I'm talking about me as an individual.

[00:01:21] [SPEAKER_00] I'm pretty sure The Cheat Sheet has taken the cane train back and forth between England and France. Because you were always talking about the channel.

[00:01:30] [SPEAKER_07] I was always talking about the channel, yeah. That makes sense. I wonder if our listeners remember it a little differently.

[00:01:39] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, I've never been to London.

[00:01:42] [SPEAKER_07] No, yeah, I've always wanted to go and do all the tourist things, I think. But, you know, I, I've not been able to. But maybe someday we can go check it out. Some interesting cases there and very interesting history.

[00:01:56] [SPEAKER_00] What did we do in West Virginia? We went to visit one of the few remaining restaurants that is still kind of a burger chef.

[00:02:04] [SPEAKER_07] Susie's! We love it. It was pretty good. And then we went across the street and, like, I guess looked at some ancient Native American mound structure. I remember we were really tired because we had to get up at, like, 3 a.m. to go there because Susie's closes at, like, 2 p.m. or some, you know, ridiculous closing time. So we, we were very tired, but it was well worth it. And West Virginia is beautiful.

[00:02:31] [SPEAKER_07] And then we've only been to Texas once on a disastrous burger chef related expedition. So two burger chef visit states, I guess.

[00:02:38] [SPEAKER_00] That's basically the only reason we go anywhere is if there's a burger chef connection.

[00:02:41] [SPEAKER_07] If you guys say, hey, we've got a burger chef clue here, that's the way to get us, get us to come in. But yeah.

[00:02:47] [SPEAKER_00] Lure us to our doom.

[00:02:48] [SPEAKER_07] Don't do that, guys. Come on. We're friends. Don't doom us. Right? Why are you encouraging people?

[00:02:56] [SPEAKER_00] Your plaintive plea.

[00:02:57] [SPEAKER_07] Now they're literally, now they're thinking about it. You know, I mean, like, I feel like you could actually lure us to our deaths. I shouldn't say that because now if we have any enemies listening, they're going to be like, well, hey, I've got a burger chef clue for you in the back alleyway. And then, you know, doesn't end well for us. But such is the nature of being curious people.

[00:03:19] [SPEAKER_00] Let's just get started.

[00:03:22] [SPEAKER_07] My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist.

[00:03:25] [SPEAKER_00] And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

[00:03:27] [SPEAKER_07] And this is the Murder Sheet.

[00:03:29] [SPEAKER_00] We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews and deep dives into murder cases. We're the Murder Sheet.

[00:03:37] [SPEAKER_06] And this is the Murder Sheet, sympathy and surveillance states. What?

[00:03:41] [SPEAKER_00] What are you doing?

[00:04:28] [SPEAKER_00] Well, you're over there suddenly laughing during our opening credits. And I'm trying to figure out what's going on.

[00:04:33] [SPEAKER_07] Well, you know why? Because, I mean, we've been trying to do more social short videos.

[00:04:40] [SPEAKER_04] Yes.

[00:04:40] [SPEAKER_07] Right? And follow us on Murder Sheet on TikTok, on YouTube, on Instagram and Facebook. If you want to see more of those, you can go to our website, murdersheetpodcast.com. And it has all our socials listed at the top and you can just go. That's probably the easiest thing to do. But, you know, so we're doing video now. And I feel like I'm always very acutely aware of, you know, where I am in the frame.

[00:05:05] [SPEAKER_07] And then I look over and suddenly I just see Kevin's big profile where you're like almost pressed against the screen looking like an Easter Island head all of a sudden. And I just think it's really funny. I think it amuses me.

[00:05:22] [SPEAKER_00] Well, I just have this confidence that it doesn't matter. You know, my profile is striking. No matter what I can offer the people, it's great.

[00:05:33] [SPEAKER_07] I'm really glad. And you should be confident because you're a little cutie. But it's just funny because I just feel like sometimes I just see you and you're like, sometimes I see him and he's disappearing into the corner. Can't see his head anymore. And I'm trying to like go like this to like get you to, you know, come back.

[00:05:48] [SPEAKER_00] Like wave your arm or something?

[00:05:49] [SPEAKER_07] Yeah. To get you to come back. And then when and then other times I see you and you're just like, you just like, like right, right, right up there. But either way, I guess you're giving the audience a treat.

[00:06:01] [SPEAKER_00] Yes. It's a rare treat. A rare treat. People love it.

[00:06:07] [SPEAKER_07] People clamoring for more Kevin profile. I think we're going to Indiana now.

[00:06:13] [SPEAKER_00] Actually, we're already in Indiana. We're recording in Indiana.

[00:06:16] [SPEAKER_07] Well, that's convenient.

[00:06:17] [SPEAKER_00] So I come from what some people like to call the Athens of the Prairies. It's also known as Columbus, Indiana. And so this is something out of my hometown. And my source for this is a PCA and some Facebook posts. And what's interesting to me, Anya, is typically when we see murders, we're seeing them from a distance. Certainly if we're lucky.

[00:06:44] [SPEAKER_00] Certainly if we're lucky, it's not something that is just right in the forefront. It doesn't really directly affect us in that it's not like a family member or a loved one. So it's interesting to me when we get a little bit of a closer look at a murder. And that's what's happened in this instance, because it's a crime, as I say, that happened in Columbus, Indiana.

[00:07:06] [SPEAKER_00] And I'm sure like all of you with your hometowns, I'm a member of various Columbus, Indiana related Facebook groups. And so I see this murder popping up and being discussed on those groups. And what is really striking to me is a lot of people, to my surprise, are expressing a lot of sympathy towards the person who has been charged with the murder.

[00:07:35] [SPEAKER_00] I think, oh, this is a great guy. I support him, so on and so forth. And it's just interesting to me to see people find this humanity in a murder suspect they might not find if they didn't have a direct connection to it. So I'll tell you a little bit about this case. This is a case involving a man named Rudy Neal Mitten.

[00:08:04] [SPEAKER_00] And I'm going to read some excerpts from the probable cause affidavit, which describes this crime. And this was written by Sergeant Thomas F. Faust. And I apologize if I'm mispronouncing that name. A quote on July 21st, 2026 at approximately 836 PM officers of the Columbus Police Department were dispatched to Pearl Street in Columbus, Indiana, regarding a welfare check.

[00:08:35] [SPEAKER_00] Columbus Police Department officers arrived on scene and made contact with David McCullough, who informed them he was unable to make contact with his father, Gerald McCullough. David advised his father as the landlord and indicated there were eviction proceedings regarding the tenant. David indicated his father's vehicle was parked outside this residence and unlocked, which is abnormal for him.

[00:08:59] [SPEAKER_00] David indicated the resident Rudy had answered the door earlier, but was not allowing him to check inside for his father. David also advised officers that the tenant was aware that David had called 911 and was summoning officers. Officers initiated contact with a subject identified as Rudy Mitten. Mr. Mitten exited the residence and uttered to officers that he drank bleach.

[00:09:25] [SPEAKER_00] Officers again asked where Gerald McCullough was and Mitten indicated that Mr. McCullough was inside in a trash can. Mitten was detained at that time. Officers conducted a safety sweep inside the residence and located blood. Officers located a trash tote inside the residence with the body of a deceased subject face down. Officers believe the body inside the trash tote was likely that of Gerald McCullough.

[00:09:53] [SPEAKER_00] And the subject's death did not appear natural. I'll stop there for a minute just to make the obvious point. This sounds really horrible.

[00:10:06] [SPEAKER_06] Yes.

[00:10:06] [SPEAKER_00] And it's true that decent people can do horrible things, but this sounds horrible. This sounds horrible. And I should mention that according to press reports, this victim was, I believe, a man in his 80s.

[00:10:22] [SPEAKER_07] He was 89. Yes. He's 89 years old.

[00:10:27] [SPEAKER_00] I'll go back to this. This, uh, uh, detective Owens, uh, informs me that there were several bruises and other scratches or, or marks on the presence of Mr. Rudy Mitten, possibly indicative of a struggle.

[00:10:45] [SPEAKER_00] Uh, I later spoke with detective Weisenbach who advised me that investigators had discovered a Facebook post made by Rudy Mitten shown to them by a neighbor, which showed a profile picture confirmed to be the Rudy Mitten in custody and showed a post that stated quote, look everybody. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. You're find out soon enough.

[00:11:05] [SPEAKER_00] This screenshot by the neighbor was taken at 9 58 PM and showed it had been posted approximately one hour prior indicating around 8 58 PM. The calls for the welfare check came in at 8 37 PM with officers first arriving at 8 43 PM. So this guy goes on Facebook knowing there was police outside about to get me.

[00:11:29] [SPEAKER_00] Um, and he makes this incriminating post, uh, after reviewing body worn cameras, uh, upon first contact by officer McCullough with Mitten, Rudy Mitten states, I just swallowed bleach and repeated this again. Officer, uh, McCullough asked Mitten what was going on and Mitten replied. I just thought I could pull it off. I am sorry. End quote. So he's making incriminating statements.

[00:11:58] [SPEAKER_00] He's saying essentially he tried, he killed this man thinking he could get away with it. Some press reports, uh, indicate that possibly an eviction was going on. People online who are friendly with and supportive of Mr. Mitten also point out that his father died recently, which is certainly a tragedy, but that doesn't give you a get out of jail free card, obviously to commit a violent crime.

[00:12:28] [SPEAKER_00] So it's, it's interesting to see one of these things close up and to see someone who is accused of a crime of this nature and have such support online from his community. It's really striking how many people online are showing sympathy for him.

[00:12:53] [SPEAKER_07] Sympathy for the devil.

[00:12:55] [SPEAKER_00] He could be a great guy who did something wrong.

[00:12:59] [SPEAKER_07] Um, okay. Stuffing an 89 year old dead body into a trash can because you had a quote meltdown as he describes it on Facebook is more than a little bit wrong. That's not jaywalking. He took a man's life. He took an elderly man's life. I think that's incredibly cowardly.

[00:13:18] [SPEAKER_00] I think he may be. The reference he makes to meltdown is from a post from a few years ago.

[00:13:24] [SPEAKER_07] Ah, okay.

[00:13:25] [SPEAKER_00] I was going to say, I thought it was interesting when I did a search for his profile on, uh, Facebook. The first thing that popped up was a post from 2022 where he wrote, uh, quote, I won't go into details, but I had a meltdown about an hour ago. I said some rather heated things.

[00:13:45] [SPEAKER_07] I mean, well, everyone can be capable of that. Doesn't really mean someone's going to murder anybody. But again, stuffing an 89 year old's body into a trash can. I don't know.

[00:13:57] [SPEAKER_00] Yes. Even if he is the greatest guy in the world, once you do something like that, you give up.

[00:14:04] [SPEAKER_07] I think you relinquish that title.

[00:14:05] [SPEAKER_00] Well, and also you need to be held accountable for what you've done. And if you've done something horrible, you need to be held accountable for it.

[00:14:14] [SPEAKER_07] I mean, I'm just going to say this. Like, I don't, I mean, this may sound harsh to some listeners. I don't really trust people who make excuses for stuff like this. Or he was such a great guy. There must be more to the story. You know?

[00:14:28] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. A lot of people are online. You know, we don't know the full story, blah, blah, blah.

[00:14:32] [SPEAKER_07] There's no full story here. Okay. If this was a case where it was like, oh, the landlord came in, was yelling at me, and he had a gun at the time. Okay. Then there's more, then there's possibly more to the story of, like, self-defense. Or I accidentally hit him with my car. There's different, you know, being in such a drunken or drug-induced state that you don't know what you're doing. Having a mental illness.

[00:14:57] [SPEAKER_07] Now, if any of those things come out, then I could see where some of that sympathy would come from. This message is sponsored by Greenlight.

[00:15:07] [SPEAKER_00] There are scammers everywhere looking to rip you and your family off. Sometimes it can feel like all of us are getting inundated with these scams constantly. It's overwhelming.

[00:15:17] [SPEAKER_07] Families lost $12.5 billion to fraud last year. And as true crime podcasters, we can tell you that fraudsters and scammers are always looking to prey on the vulnerable.

[00:15:27] [SPEAKER_00] But with Greenlight Family Shield, you can keep your family from becoming a statistic. You can fight back against these scammers.

[00:15:34] [SPEAKER_07] Greenlight Family Shield is an app that keeps your whole family safe from scams and fraud. It recognizes that what impacts one family member impacts a whole family. So you can shield your grandparents, your kids, your spouse, yourself, everybody.

[00:15:48] [SPEAKER_00] Greenlight Family Shield keeps your family safe with financial account monitoring, credit locking, and real-time alerts that start whenever a potential fraud is detected. Oh, and they also offer up to a million dollars of identity theft coverage.

[00:16:02] [SPEAKER_07] Take charge of your family's safety, financial security, and well-being today. Set up Greenlight Family Shield in just minutes. We have. We absolutely love the peace of mind we get from checking in on our app and knowing that Greenlight Family Shield is monitoring all of our financial accounts. If something goes wrong, we know they'll have our backs.

[00:16:21] [SPEAKER_00] We use Greenlight, and you should too.

[00:16:24] [SPEAKER_07] Scammers aren't waiting. Neither should you. Go to greenlight.com slash msheet right now to get started. That's greenlight.com slash msheet. Greenlight.com slash msheet.

[00:16:36] [SPEAKER_00] This summer, you need comfortable go-anywhere pieces that are made with quality and care and affordability in mind. You need our wonderful sponsor, Quince.

[00:16:46] [SPEAKER_07] Quince is a brand that brings us a little luxury in our lives for less. They'll have you sporting 100% European linen pants and shirts. These are perfectly light, breathable looks for the hotter months, starting at just $34.

[00:16:59] [SPEAKER_00] Or even super soft t-shirts that you can wear all day. Or lightweight cotton sweaters for nighttime beach walks and bonfires. They even offer travel essentials and home goods.

[00:17:12] [SPEAKER_07] This summer, I've been constantly wearing their 100% European linen fit and flare midi dress in deep navy. I love it. I even wore it to CrimeCon with a matching quince beret and some red high heels. I really love how summery and breathable it is. It's one of those dresses where I felt I looked really polished while also feeling comfortable, even as I was trekking through all the twists and turns of Caesar's Palace. The dress is flattering and affordable, and I couldn't recommend it highly enough. It's my go-to summer look right now.

[00:17:40] [SPEAKER_00] All of their stuff is terrific and priced 50% to 80% less than similar brands. They cut costs by bypassing the middlemen. So, no markups. Shop Quince today.

[00:17:52] [SPEAKER_07] Make your summer wardrobe easier. Go to quince.com slash msheet for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's q-u-i-n-c-e dot com slash msheet for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com slash msheet.

[00:18:11] [SPEAKER_02] He shoots. He scores!

[00:18:19] [SPEAKER_01] Misses.

[00:18:20] [SPEAKER_05] I'm Renee with Service Specialties. Basketball is on our expertise, but your home comfort is. Call Service Specialties for all your heating, cooling, and plumbing needs.

[00:18:29] [SPEAKER_03] Your home's comfort is our expertise. Call Service Specialties. Service Specialties.

[00:18:41] [SPEAKER_07] But barring that, when I just see people kind of tribally flocking to people they know and like and defending them like this, I don't trust people like that. Because it's, I think it's a natural thing for human beings to do. I understand it. But it's the same impulse that gets people to silence sexual assault survivors. Oh, that guy wouldn't have done that. He's such a good guy. Are you sure that's what happened? Are you sure?

[00:19:10] [SPEAKER_07] You know, it's the same impulse that gets people to cover up for corrupt officials. You know, it's the same. It's the same thing. I just think it's, you know what it is? It's intellectual dishonesty. That's what it is. I mean, it's like, well, he was nice to me. Ted Bundy really helped me out that one time and he didn't murder me. And it's like, it's like people incapable of thinking beyond their own personal experience with an individual.

[00:19:38] [SPEAKER_07] Now, here's where I do encourage people. Like, I really think it's possible to love and support someone while accepting what they did. I think you can go and say, hey, you know, what you did was unacceptable and you hurt people. But I'm still your friend and I'm still here for you. And I'm going to be a support for you. And I'm going to be a support for you as you're held accountable for your actions. But I will be there for you nonetheless.

[00:20:07] [SPEAKER_07] I think that is an incredibly giving, generous and positive thing to do. Because just because someone does something horrible doesn't mean they're not a human being anymore. And it doesn't completely necessarily erase whatever good they did in the past. It's the let me try to kind of avoid my cognitive dissonance about supporting someone who did something awful by just pretending like they didn't do anything awful. That's what bothers me.

[00:20:36] [SPEAKER_07] Not supporting people who did something bad. Pretending like, oh, they couldn't have done it.

[00:20:41] [SPEAKER_00] And I'll just quickly add to that. I think this also shows something else we see in true crime as a whole, where if there is a person out there who seems to be charming and likable, and that person is saying, oh, I'm innocent or what have you. People tend to believe them. If there is a person that is likable, oh, how could this person have done this?

[00:21:08] [SPEAKER_00] And you're not reckoning with the fact that, to a certain extent, seeming likable and charming is a skill that a lot of people cultivate. And that doesn't really mean anything about who they really are. You have to be able to look beyond the surface.

[00:21:25] [SPEAKER_07] You hit the nail on the head. I think there are so many podcasts that exist out there where it's like, I talked to this guy who got convicted one time, but he seemed nice to me. And it's like, wow. But also, I mean, it's scary because it's like, wow, if you're not charming and you're just awkward, I guess, you know, everyone's going to think you did it. But if you're like a charming sociopath or whatever, I guess, then, you know, oh, well, that'll launch a thousand podcasts.

[00:21:51] [SPEAKER_07] And honestly, I think, you know, we've seen it in cases where people aren't charming, but people just say they're charming. Like the Temujin Kenzu case, like that man doesn't have an ounce of charm in his body. But yet people go out and say that because they know that that's important to people. He seems really cool. Oh, well, a guy who seems really cool couldn't have done anything bad in his life. You know, it's.

[00:22:12] [SPEAKER_00] I think with that case is also one thing I see a lot of, not just in true crime, but everywhere is if someone tells me, oh, John Doe is a charming man. And I go and meet John Doe. I'm going to view that interaction through that prison. Oh, this is a charming man. And I'm going to go back and report. Yes, he was charming to me, too, because we just often accept other people's conclusions without even thinking about them.

[00:22:42] [SPEAKER_07] Yeah, it's like I respect this person and they told me this. So I'm probably going to have the same experience. And then that actually colors the experience in a really significant way. I you're absolutely. And again, I'm not saying like, oh, this guy's evil. And I mean, what he did was evil. I mean, like, I want to be clear about that.

[00:22:57] [SPEAKER_00] Absolutely.

[00:22:58] [SPEAKER_07] You know what he's accused of what he's accused of doing. But like, it's one of those things where I think that. People. You can separate perhaps on some level the sin from the center and you can support the center. But I think the sin of murder is pretty bad. And I just think it's kind of like there's like an intellectual, emotional, moral cowardice to just basically doing the equivalent of like, la, la, la. I can't hear you when it's someone you like.

[00:23:26] [SPEAKER_07] You know, and again, I think that's an impulse that has a lot of destructive power. And I think it's traditionally been bad for society. And we should instead encourage people to. Support the person while acknowledging what they did, which is possible. And it maybe sounds less good because you're acknowledging the murder and that makes you feel uncomfortable. But if you really love the person. You know, they're still that person. And they just did something really bad.

[00:23:55] [SPEAKER_07] Maybe they need that love or support more than ever. But what we don't need as a society is people just kind of pretending like bad stuff doesn't happen just because it's their team or it's their guy or it's their girl or whatever or someone they relate to. You know, there's way too much of that.

[00:24:11] [SPEAKER_00] I notice, Anya, as you're talking, you're starting to pack your bags. Are we headed to West Virginia?

[00:24:18] [SPEAKER_07] Yeah, obviously. So this is a case where, I mean, one thing I think we covering true crime, we kind of give everyone the impression that the police and everyone are running around dealing with murders every single moment of every single day.

[00:24:33] [SPEAKER_07] But reality, as we know, a big part of being any sort of first responder is dealing with like medical emergencies or checking in on people who may not be doing so well and making sure they're OK or if their family hasn't seen them for a while. So this is one of those cases that seemingly starts out as like those typical mundane calls that you might get and then goes into something a lot more sinister. So this took place in West Virginia in Weirton on July 14th, 2026.

[00:25:02] [SPEAKER_07] My sources for this are WTOV9 as well as the Intelligencer Wheeling News Register. We'll be including links to that. And a listener requested that we do this one. But you have the following. You have an elderly couple living in a home on Grant Street in Weirton. And it's this is a house on a hill, as are many homes in West Virginia. And it kind of when I look at the Google Maps, it looks like that kind of traditional West Virginia city scene work. It's kind of on the hill.

[00:25:32] [SPEAKER_07] You're kind of overlooking the slope of of houses going downwards. And apparently there's an elderly couple living there. And officers get the call like from a family member of them that they're concerned. Now, that can mean anything. And some of the details on this one are fake, but could mean that we're worried we haven't heard from grandma and grandpa in a while or we're aware that there's some problem going on in the house. But either way, the Weirdon Police Department officers respond.

[00:26:01] [SPEAKER_07] And according to Weirdon Police Chief Charlie Cush, they go into the house because they become aware that a man inside is suffering a medical emergency. Again, this is all sounding like maybe your typical health related problem. And inside they find 69 year old David Barger. I'm sorry if I'm saying his name wrong. And they provided aid to him.

[00:26:23] [SPEAKER_07] So, you know, 69, I don't think is that old, but I think it's, you know, someone could certainly have a medical emergency at that age, getting close to the seven, you know, to 70. And they're dealing with it. But this is actually not what it sounds like, because this isn't just some health emergency. While the officers are in the home, they locate a dead body, a dead body that has apparently clearly been murdered.

[00:26:48] [SPEAKER_07] And this is the body of 70 year old Donna Barger, David's wife. So he's suffering some kind of medical emergency. She's dead, seemingly of homicide. So police now have a murder investigation on their hands. They send David to Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania to go to a hospital there. And he has now been charged with murder. A warrant for first degree murder has been issued.

[00:27:14] [SPEAKER_07] And according to Cush, they've contacted the Pittsburgh police and the Allegheny, I guess, police department and whatnot. And they're the hospital. And they filled out the paperwork necessary so that when David Barger is released, he will be charged with his wife's murder. So this is just one of those kind of key things where, you know, something can most things are mundane, but sometimes things can start as mundane and then get pretty wild.

[00:27:42] [SPEAKER_07] My questions, because, again, there's not a lot of information out there on this, is was his medical emergency some kind of attempted like murder suicide thing? Or was it just a happenstance that he happened to suffer something shortly after this, you know, allegedly killing his wife? I'd be curious about what is David Barger's story. Is he saying, no, it wasn't murder.

[00:28:06] [SPEAKER_07] It was actually self-defense or she died of natural causes and they're making the wrong assumption? I'd be very curious. You know, these two folks are getting up there in age, right? I mean, again, I don't think it's that old, but were there any cognitive problems at this point in their lives going on? You know, sometimes you hear about mercy killing.

[00:28:29] [SPEAKER_07] Sometimes you hear about people just kind of turning personalities and turning really mean and kind of abusive, even though that wasn't necessarily their personality before. So I'd be very curious. Definitely must have been a shock for those officers, though, but very sad for Donna Barger's family.

[00:28:47] [SPEAKER_00] That's a terrible story. It's just terrible.

[00:28:50] [SPEAKER_07] So now I think we're leaving the States and traveling abroad. Get your passport, Kevin.

[00:28:59] [SPEAKER_00] I always have my passport handy because I never know what might happen.

[00:29:05] [SPEAKER_07] But like you might need to flee the country?

[00:29:08] [SPEAKER_00] It's a crazy world. Who knows? Who knows? Always have your passport with you just to be safe, right? Is that fair to say? What did you do? I had a life before I met you. Just so you know. Okay. And I'm very old, so I've done a lot of stuff.

[00:29:28] [SPEAKER_07] You're not old. Don't say it. Yeah. No.

[00:29:33] [SPEAKER_00] I'm quite old. No. I could drop dead at any time.

[00:29:37] [SPEAKER_07] No, you cannot. You know why? Because you're not allowed to. Okay? What if? When true crime is ashes, then you have my permission to die.

[00:29:51] [SPEAKER_00] So like next week?

[00:29:55] [SPEAKER_07] It's from the Dark Knight Rises.

[00:29:58] [SPEAKER_00] Oh, see. You with your Batman comic book references. I'm not.

[00:30:03] I'm not.

[00:30:04] [SPEAKER_07] I didn't just say that. So you were going to move on from that conversation just thinking like, oh, that's just the thing Anya said. You say a lot of stuff. I do say a lot of stuff. But no, you can't die. I love you. And I'll be really sad. And I don't think Indiana is ready for, you know, that level of depression for me.

[00:30:23] [SPEAKER_00] I've read a few comic books in my time. I haven't really seen a lot of the superhero movies, which I believe is what you're referencing there.

[00:30:32] [SPEAKER_07] I never saw the movie. I just remember it from the trailer. I don't know why. That always stuck in my head, that line. I think it's like when Gotham is ashes, then you have my permission to die.

[00:30:42] [SPEAKER_00] I just think like by the time I was like 20 or 25, I had consumed so much superhero content that I'm good. I'm largely good. And you like the old times. So I've probably consumed many, many more superhero stories than anybody listening. Maybe all of you put together have collectively consumed as much superhero content as me.

[00:31:07] [SPEAKER_07] Kevin, I just want to say like you're that kind of nerd. And I say that affectionately because I'm a nerd too. You're that kind of nerd where like you get to the point where like, oh, like, you know, people will be like, oh, you like superhero stuff? Oh, did you like this Batman movie? And you're just like, oh God, Batman hasn't been good since the 60s. Like, you know, like you are like you are so like in the weeds on DC superheroes in particular. Although you certainly know a lot about Marvel as well.

[00:31:33] [SPEAKER_07] That you like you almost like are separated from the zeitgeist because none of these Marvel movies and DC movies really have any appeal for you because you're chasing that high of how wacky these things were in the Silver Age. Is that fair to say?

[00:31:49] [SPEAKER_00] That's fair to say.

[00:31:50] [SPEAKER_07] I just want to say that before people start emailing us being like, which Batman movies do you like? The answer is like he's operating on a different plane, folks.

[00:32:00] [SPEAKER_00] Other than there are some fine contemporary works being published. A Jimmy Olsen series pretty recently by Matt Fraction. Certainly worth taking a look at.

[00:32:11] [SPEAKER_07] You love Jimmy Olsen.

[00:32:12] [SPEAKER_00] Love Matt Fraction.

[00:32:13] [SPEAKER_07] Yes.

[00:32:14] [SPEAKER_00] So my sources for this, bbc.com, europole.europa.eu.

[00:32:22] [SPEAKER_07] What are you laughing at?

[00:32:25] [SPEAKER_00] Sometimes. Isn't that like Interpol? Yeah. Sometimes things are just fun to say. Europole.europa.

[00:32:31] [SPEAKER_07] See, now I know why you want the passport because you're mocking Europole. You're mocking the Europole investigators and then you're going to slip out.

[00:32:41] [SPEAKER_00] And abcnews.com. What I'm about to tell you about is a case that we've talked about similar things before. There's a trend going on, especially overseas with what they call violence as a service. And I'm going to... What a European thing to call it. That's what they call it. Or VAS. Yes.

[00:33:09] [SPEAKER_00] And I'm going to really oversimplify it here. But basically what it seems to me to be is like TaskRabbit for Hitman. So if you want somebody killed, if you want a violent act committed, you basically hire someone to do it for you. And you're not hiring some smooth contract killers. You're hiring kids. You're hiring kids that have been recruited maybe because they play a lot of violent games or what have you.

[00:33:38] [SPEAKER_00] And you lure them in. And I guess the idea would be this creates some insulation. So the higher ups in these organizations or the people who might want people to be killed aren't the ones getting punished for it. And this case involves a network called the Foxtrot Network, which is apparently a Swedish crime group which has ties to Iran.

[00:34:06] [SPEAKER_07] That's a random series of words, but okay.

[00:34:09] [SPEAKER_00] Yes. And this is the case of a man named Johannes Natland, a 19-year-old. He was living in Norway. He was working part-time at a pizza restaurant when he gets recruited to go to London to kill somebody.

[00:34:32] [SPEAKER_00] And while he is in London, thank God, before he's able to commit the act, he is arrested in a hotel room. He has two guns. He has 19 rounds of ammunition. And the jury found him guilty of conspiracy to murder. And he's now been sentenced.

[00:34:57] [SPEAKER_00] And, yeah, so it's kind of a sad case that these naive kids are getting drawn into this sort of thing. He said that, oh, yeah, when I got to London, I realized I was in a pickle or something.

[00:35:12] [SPEAKER_07] I was in a major pickle. Yeah, that's one word for it.

[00:35:15] [SPEAKER_00] So, yeah, I find it interesting. And this is a trend that, as I say, seems to be happening quite a lot overseas. I'm not sure if it's really come to America yet.

[00:35:27] [SPEAKER_07] Let's not have it come to America. Let's just not. We've got enough stuff going on here. But, like, it's scary.

[00:35:36] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, it is scary. It is scary because it seems so much bad stuff can happen to kids online, including being radicalized politically or lured into taking dangerous jobs from criminal organizations. It's, yeah, it's a scary world.

[00:35:57] [SPEAKER_07] I have a question. Like, do, in your view, do you think someone like Natland would have gotten into trouble if he has, like, so little of a moral compass at 19 that he's willing to participate in some fashion, in some kind of hit service, you know, is, are we just, would he have just done something else? Or do you think someone like this might have actually lived his life without doing anything like that? And it's just that this weird thing kind of came up.

[00:36:26] [SPEAKER_07] And I don't know. I'm just curious what you think.

[00:36:28] [SPEAKER_00] They say there's a lot of evidence that he knew he was being asked to kill someone and that he, therefore, willingly joined this conspiracy. And we know he's not a little boy. He has to, he's of an age where he understands the nature of what it means to kill someone and what that is going to cost someone else, you know, cost someone else their lives.

[00:36:55] [SPEAKER_00] But it's hard to say if what would have happened to him if not for this. Because a lot of kids do stupid things. And if he did not have the opportunity to have something like this presented or dangled in front of him as he's working his part-time warring job, I don't know. I guess the ultimate answer for me is I don't know.

[00:37:22] [SPEAKER_00] But certainly if you accept a contract to kill someone and travel to do it with weapons, you should expect major consequences. What do you think? Do you think people like this would live ordinary lives if never given the opportunity to accept contracts to kill people?

[00:37:40] [SPEAKER_07] I don't know this guy. I don't know the 19-year-old. I don't know his family situation. I have to think a lot of people in this boat, I'm not saying this is the case for him at all. But I'm saying, like, a lot of people who end up in situations like these have not been raised properly. You know, because they've not been raised with, like, enough, like, integrity to be like, wow, yeah, I'm really bored as a pizza guy. But you know what's worse than that? Killing people.

[00:38:09] [SPEAKER_07] Because that is really evil and I shouldn't do that. Like, I think someone like that, you know, who's not raised right might be like, wow, that's really cool and sexy and I can be an international hitman and make money. Ooh. You know, like, it's like they're drawn in by the glamour of it. And, you know, the thing with people who have a conscience and, like, have the ability to, like, not be lured in by that is most people would be like, why would I want to do that? That's awful. But a certain type of person, it's like they don't care.

[00:38:39] [SPEAKER_07] And I think there's, like, a lot of people out there who don't care on some level. Not all of them are ever going to do anything violent. But all of them are probably going to do things in life where it's just about them and whatever is good for them in the moment or feels good for them in the moment is more important than anybody else, more important than society, more important than their family members, more important than people around them, more important than strangers.

[00:39:05] [SPEAKER_07] So I think there's a lot of people out there who are just deeply, you know, egotistical and selfish. And so, I mean, maybe I don't think all of them will do something awful, but I think, like, a lot of them are capable of possibly getting into something like this. And I think it really goes back to, like, are you raised with any sort of, like, valuing human life as a basic thing? Like, I don't know.

[00:39:34] [SPEAKER_07] Like, if I killed somebody, I couldn't live with myself. You know what I mean? Like, I don't know how these people are like, yeah, I'll just sign up for TaskRabbit for murderers, you know, like, and not being like. How will I live with myself afterwards? And in this case, it's just the casualness of it is scary. We're not hearing anything of, like, oh, he was desperate for money because his mom was sick. I mean, that wouldn't make an excuse for it either. But, like, you can understand certain things, like, in the context of someone's life is falling apart. But this is just, like, I don't know.

[00:40:03] [SPEAKER_07] So, disillusioned young men are scary people.

[00:40:06] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, I will be very curious to see what his sentence is. He's been found guilty as far as I can see from press reports. He's not yet been sentenced.

[00:40:14] [SPEAKER_07] And he's saying, like, oh, I was just going to shoot myself in the foot. Sure.

[00:40:18] [SPEAKER_00] Because he was in this pickle.

[00:40:19] [SPEAKER_07] It's just a big pickle, you know? I mean.

[00:40:22] [SPEAKER_00] I don't know the details. I can imagine a situation where you could get in over your head pretty quickly.

[00:40:29] [SPEAKER_07] I mean, just don't get in the pool then, you know? Like, I don't know. It just seems very easy. Like, it seems really, like, there's certain things, like, certain bad things in life where we read about in crimes where I'm like, wow, it would be hard to say no to this. And this is not one of those things.

[00:40:48] [SPEAKER_00] But Anya.

[00:40:49] [SPEAKER_07] Also, what a goofy name. The Foxtrot Network sounds like something that, like, existed during World War II.

[00:40:55] [SPEAKER_00] I see you glancing over your shoulder at your cowboy hats and you're getting ready to put one on. Does this mean, does this mean we're headed to the Lone Star State? The Empire State of the South. What? I don't know what I'm saying. Are we going to Texas?

[00:41:12] [SPEAKER_07] Yes, we're going to Texas. But I'm not going to wear a cowboy hat because that's not who I am. Okay, pardon me.

[00:41:16] [SPEAKER_00] That's not who I am. Pardon me. A cow person hat.

[00:41:19] [SPEAKER_07] Oh, my gosh. You know, I just, your bizarre fantasies are just getting out of hand. So, yes, we are going to Texas. We're going to Johnson County, Texas. And my sources for this one are some posts from, or some articles from 404 Media and the Electronic Frontier Foundation.

[00:41:42] [SPEAKER_07] And I want to be clear, the Electronic Frontier Foundation is an advocacy group about online privacy, freedom of speech, limits on government surveillance online. So they very much have a strong point of view on that. But the reason why I find this report compelling, despite the fact that they're an advocacy organization, is that they're citing documents. They're citing investigative reports.

[00:42:10] [SPEAKER_07] And I thought, so, I mean, for me, whatever their analysis is, is kind of beside the point. They're citing things that are very, I think, important here. Gotcha. Gotcha. So, 404 Media reported recently there was a situation in Johnson County, Texas, where this, you know, so I guess we have to go back.

[00:42:34] [SPEAKER_07] Look, Flock Safety is a technology company that does automated license plate reader cameras, and they give those to law enforcement, businesses. And, you know, those cameras are very effective at capturing the details of a vehicle and logging the movements of a vehicle and then spreading that as, like, searchable data to a massive network.

[00:43:01] [SPEAKER_07] So it's very good for tracking down vehicles. And what we saw in May with 404 Media, they reported something saying that the Johnson County Sheriff's Office conducted, like, a whole nationwide search of these cameras with the search log, quote, had an abortion search for female.

[00:43:25] [SPEAKER_07] So what they were reporting at the time is it's looking like the sheriff's office is tracking down a woman they believed had an abortion.

[00:43:35] [SPEAKER_07] Now, given the polarity and controversy around abortion, you can imagine that that would be upsetting for a lot of people, that abortion is, you know, not necessarily just being criminalized itself in certain places, but that technology is being used to surveil women who are suspected of having an abortion and, like, track them across state lines potentially.

[00:44:01] [SPEAKER_07] Because this is a nationwide search, by the way, like, this is multiple, you know, this is the United States, not just Texas. So when that came out, there was a lot of controversy. I mean, what do you think about that, first of all?

[00:44:16] [SPEAKER_00] It really concerns me on multiple levels, but I'll let you finish and I have some more to say.

[00:44:22] [SPEAKER_07] Okay, fair enough. Now, this is what flock safety and the sheriff's office came out with afterwards. They're like, listen, this is clickbait. Basically what happened is that the woman's family reported her as a missing person. We went to check on her welfare. We found a lot of blood and we were freaked out. And so we were like, we got to find her. We don't know what happened, but we're primarily concerned for her safety. We're not running her down because we think she had an abortion.

[00:44:52] [SPEAKER_07] And frankly, any indication that either of us is doing this is false. I believe flock safety called it clickbait and saying, like, that's totally not what this is. Like, okay. So they're going on the record saying that's not what happened. And you'd like to believe that especially, well, very powerful corporations wouldn't lie and that public safety officials and certainly law enforcement officers would not lie.

[00:45:22] [SPEAKER_07] That they would be like, yeah, it was actually, you know, the abortion thing was secondary. But recent documents have come out that have very much turned that on its head. And so now this is what we have learned through this EFF documents that they were able to obtain because they got a sworn affidavit from the lead investigator on the case.

[00:45:48] [SPEAKER_07] I mean, as an attorney, what is the significance of a sworn affidavit?

[00:45:53] [SPEAKER_00] A sworn affidavit basically means that the person who is relating events in the affidavit is on the hook for perjury if they're lying. So that makes it much more serious than if someone just goes on Polly the Podcast and says, Because you... Polly the Podcast. One of my favorite programs.

[00:46:19] [SPEAKER_07] We're going to be appearing there next week, actually. No, I'm just kidding. So it's significant when we're doing rock, paper, scissors for statements. Sworn affidavit beats public statements on like social media. Pretty much beats almost anything because it's sworn. Right? Yes. Okay. Okay. So we got this sworn affidavit.

[00:46:43] [SPEAKER_07] And what the sworn affidavit indicates is that this was in fact a death investigation of the fetus, not a missing persons case. You would expect it to be, you know, language indicating this is a missing persons investigation, not a death investigation, if what the sheriff's office was saying was true. And that it was a death investigation in basically in reaction to a woman's self-managed abortion.

[00:47:13] [SPEAKER_07] So seemingly what was happening was the woman's partner, intimate partner, romantic partner, what have you, called the Johnson County District Attorney, called the Johnson County Sheriff's Office and was providing them with evidence of, I believe, like the parcel that the abortion pill came in.

[00:47:40] [SPEAKER_07] And all these other things as far as, you know, providing that, I believe, you know, what would mean what the sheriff was also saying was like we found all this blood. Right. You know, and yeah, that would be really concerning if you, you know, it's a welfare check for a missing person. Come and find blood. You know, maybe you believe they self-induced an abortion and then maybe you're concerned about their safety. Like you can see how something like that could play out.

[00:48:06] [SPEAKER_07] But in this affidavit from the lead investigator, there's no description of blood. There's no let's take this blood into evidence. There are photographs, though, of what the partner who was reporting this believed to be a fetus, although it's not clear if that's the case. And yeah, they're I mean, yeah, I mean, this is coming from the lead investigator themselves.

[00:48:36] [SPEAKER_07] And they use this to then go and start tracking this woman. Yeah. They take a lot of evidence around the abortion. And the detective then, as a result of this investigation, goes to the district attorney's office in Johnson County and is asking, can we charge this?

[00:48:57] [SPEAKER_07] You know, like because if this person took this pill to cause a miscarriage and abortion of a nonviable fetus, would that be a crime? And the district attorney's office responded that it was not. So what I'm reading between the lines here is like the fetus was nonviable in some way. I don't I don't know the intricacies of the law in Texas around this, but that may be a differentiator.

[00:49:22] [SPEAKER_07] Like if it's not going to go to term and is, you know, basically a medical procedure at that point. And anyways, then later on, the woman herself actually goes into the police office and the deputies think she's there to kind of clear up this whole abortion investigation.

[00:49:43] [SPEAKER_07] But later on, they realize that she's actually trying to report that this partner who reported her that he, you know, after this abortion, he choked her. He put a gun to her head and made her beg for her life. He's since been charged with that assault. So they thought, oh, she's coming in here to clear that up. But she's actually saying like this other thing is going on.

[00:50:07] [SPEAKER_07] So, yeah, a lot of this really is concerning, you know, just the surveillance issue and also the like. Lying to the public issue of kind of coming out there and like we're looking like it seems pretty well documented that they were investigating the death and not the missing person. And. To kind of claim otherwise and downplay it.

[00:50:33] [SPEAKER_07] And I don't know, that to me is like a huge breach of public trust. What do you think?

[00:50:42] [SPEAKER_00] Yes, I agree with you. We live in a world where there's technology exists basically that could surveil almost our every move. And if law enforcement had access to all of that, then there'd be a lot less crime, but there'd also be a lot less freedoms.

[00:51:01] [SPEAKER_00] And one thing we've consistently tried to do as a country is to balance our our right and expectation of safety with our freedoms to live our lives without being surveilled and have our privacy violated. And I'm concerned with some of these latest developments that it is tipping too much in favor of the surveillance state.

[00:51:28] [SPEAKER_07] I mean, like we can all think of examples where we'd have absolutely no problem, I think, with some kind of flock tracking a child molester, a child predator, a murderer, a kidnapper. Right.

[00:51:43] [SPEAKER_04] Yes.

[00:51:43] [SPEAKER_07] I mean, there's certain things where it's like maybe human life hangs in the balance or the violation of a child hangs in the balance. And we can all, I think, envision those. But at the same time, that's not what that's not what is being focused on from what I can tell from cases like this. I mean, there just seems to be really very few restrictions. And I think restrictions have to come from the law.

[00:52:10] [SPEAKER_07] They can't come from companies policing themselves that, frankly, that doesn't happen because and we see why. They were worried about the outrage this would cause. So they downplayed it and they kind of made it out to be something it wasn't. You know, if they're going to do, you know, like, I mean, from the perspective of the sheriff's office, it's like if they're going to be doing this, be honest about it. You know, people will be mad. People will be upset.

[00:52:35] [SPEAKER_07] People will feel like that is really draconian and 1984-esque, right?

[00:52:42] [SPEAKER_04] Yes.

[00:52:42] [SPEAKER_07] An Orwellian nightmare. But you know what? If that's your interpretation of the law and that's how you're going to police women in the area, be honest about it. Maybe people can keep that in mind with the next election. Don't try to have your cake and eat it, too, I guess. And from the perspective of the company, they're calling a clickbait. Oh, no, no, this is what's happening. But it seems pretty clear.

[00:53:05] [SPEAKER_07] Instead of taking an interest in it and saying, was our system abused by the sheriff's office and can we do things to perhaps make sure that doesn't happen again? Their initial instinct was to attack, to shoot the messenger. Oh, these guys are doing clickbait. This isn't what happened. This isn't what happened. Well, I. This affidavit's pretty bad, you know.

[00:53:29] [SPEAKER_07] And I think there has to be a serious conversation about the limitations or how we can effectively limit this so that it's not basically stripping people of their civil liberties. While, you know, again, I'm not I'm not against necessarily the technology as a whole. I'm not against any sort of implementation of it because I can see in areas where it could help. But I really would feel a lot more comfortable with that if it was actually being implemented in really serious instances.

[00:53:58] [SPEAKER_07] And there was some kind of line around what are we using this for versus what are we not using it for?

[00:54:07] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, we live in an age where technology is advancing faster than our thinking about it. And we need to really think about these advances and how we can use them to protect all of us, including protecting our rights to privacy.

[00:54:23] [SPEAKER_07] Because I don't really think it's about abortion. I mean, people have really strong opinions on both sides. And I'm not here to tell you mine. And I'm not. But I am here to tell you that I'm very aware that it's a controversial thing. And just put it put it in your like if you want and if you kind of think, well, abortion is evil and a crime and they should run people down.

[00:54:47] [SPEAKER_07] Just put instead of abortion, put like anything maybe you like agree with potentially being criminalized or or something that, you know, maybe you think is just like, you know, running a stoplight. And then they're suddenly using flock to track you across the country. You know, running a stoplight might be bad. But like, is that. Yeah. Do we want to live in that society? I don't know. I mean, I think it's complicated.

[00:55:13] [SPEAKER_07] I think we got to be thoughtful about this, because I think if we if we get to a point with the surveillance state, like we will lose our liberty. I guess I think that's just very, you know, and even I feel like a lot of things I see that are upsetting people across the country. Like we were just in we were just in Shelby County, Indiana. And you see all the the authorities there made disparaging comments about locals who were protesting the data centers. And we saw a lot of signs about that where people are pushing back.

[00:55:43] [SPEAKER_07] They're not happy about this. But to a certain extent, it's just kind of being forced down everyone's throats. We're not getting a vote in our lives and our liberties fundamentally being changed by this technology. And we're not getting informed even by authorities or these companies about what they're really doing with this stuff. And that can't coexist with having a free society. We have to.

[00:56:11] [SPEAKER_07] We have to be like having these conversations and like going through the democratic process and the legislative process about what this stuff is OK for and what. Exactly. Should be thrown out.

[00:56:21] [SPEAKER_00] And I suspect we'll be having more discussions about this in the days, weeks and months and years and decades and centuries to come. But meanwhile, we have a lot of fun with our premium content, both on Patreon and Apple. You join us there. You help make it possible for us to continue the show. And I'm not exaggerating. Your support really makes that possible for us to continue the program. We give you early episodes. We give you ad free episodes. We give you extra episodes.

[00:56:51] [SPEAKER_00] So a little bit of everything.

[00:56:53] [SPEAKER_07] All kinds of episodes.

[00:56:55] [SPEAKER_00] And I suspect that people right now are anxious to start their weekend. So why don't we wrap up and wish everybody the best.

[00:57:02] [SPEAKER_07] Happy weekend, everybody. Take care.

[00:57:05] [SPEAKER_00] Thanks so much for listening to The Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us at murdersheet at gmail dot com. If you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[00:57:24] [SPEAKER_07] If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com slash murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www.buymeacoffee.com slash murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.

[00:57:49] [SPEAKER_00] Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for The Murder Sheet, and who you can find on the web at kevintg dot com.

[00:57:59] [SPEAKER_07] If you're looking to talk with other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience, as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.

[00:58:23] [SPEAKER_02] He shoots! He scores! He scores!

[00:58:28] [SPEAKER_01] Oh, he misses.

[00:58:32] [SPEAKER_05] I'm Renee with Service Specialties. Basketball isn't our expertise, but your home comfort is. Call Service Specialties for all your heating, cooling, and plumbing needs.

[00:58:40] [SPEAKER_03] Your home's comfort is our expertise. Call Service Specialties. Service Specialties!