The Cheat Sheet: Tampering and Trails

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[00:01:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Content warning, this episode contains discussion of sexual assault,

[00:01:04] [SPEAKER_02]: domestic violence, and murder, particularly the murder of a child.

[00:01:09] [SPEAKER_03]: So today we're going to talk about four cases, one out of Baltimore, Maryland,

[00:01:14] [SPEAKER_03]: Baltimore, Maryland area I should say, one from the Big Island in Hawaii,

[00:01:19] [SPEAKER_03]: one out of Texas, and another out of Denver, Colorado.

[00:01:22] [SPEAKER_03]: I should say that actually interestingly enough, three of four of these cases

[00:01:26] [SPEAKER_03]: are about long unsolved criminal cases, one of which is unresolved,

[00:01:33] [SPEAKER_03]: and the other two have frankly unsatisfying resolutions,

[00:01:38] [SPEAKER_03]: but at least there are some answers now.

[00:01:40] [SPEAKER_03]: My name is Ania Kane.

[00:01:41] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm a journalist.

[00:01:43] [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm Kevin Greenlee.

[00:01:44] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm an attorney.

[00:01:45] [SPEAKER_02]: And this is the MurderSheet.

[00:01:47] [SPEAKER_02]: We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting,

[00:01:50] [SPEAKER_02]: interviews, and deep dives into murder cases.

[00:01:53] [SPEAKER_02]: We're the MurderSheet.

[00:01:55] [SPEAKER_03]: And this is the cheat sheet, tampering and trails.

[00:02:43] [SPEAKER_03]: So this first case comes out of Maryland,

[00:02:46] [SPEAKER_03]: and it was a listener suggestion as well.

[00:02:50] [SPEAKER_03]: And my sources were the Baltimore County Police Department's Facebook page,

[00:02:54] [SPEAKER_03]: the Baltimore Sun Access Through Newspapers.com, and WMR2 News.

[00:03:03] [SPEAKER_03]: So this concerns a 24-year-old woman named Michelle Rust.

[00:03:09] [SPEAKER_03]: On the morning of July 20, 2002,

[00:03:12] [SPEAKER_03]: she was getting ready for her three-year-old son's birthday party.

[00:03:15] [SPEAKER_03]: She needed balloons.

[00:03:17] [SPEAKER_03]: She wanted to get a flower for her husband Dwight Rust Jr.'s grandmother at Walmart

[00:03:22] [SPEAKER_03]: since she shared a birthday with her son.

[00:03:24] [SPEAKER_03]: That's all according to the Baltimore Sun.

[00:03:26] [SPEAKER_03]: And so she left the house around 9.30 a.m. that day.

[00:03:31] [SPEAKER_03]: About 30 minutes later, Dwight called her parents, a bit concerned,

[00:03:36] [SPEAKER_03]: like why isn't she back yet?

[00:03:37] [SPEAKER_03]: And they all agreed she might just be getting some extra stuff for the party.

[00:03:41] [SPEAKER_03]: So to give you some background on the relationship between the Rusts,

[00:03:45] [SPEAKER_03]: Dwight and Michelle were high school sweethearts.

[00:03:47] [SPEAKER_03]: They married in 1997.

[00:03:49] [SPEAKER_03]: He was a man who worked at a fridge and air conditioning repair shop with his family,

[00:03:54] [SPEAKER_03]: and they shared a three-year-old son.

[00:03:57] [SPEAKER_03]: He claims he last saw her car going around the bend on their road,

[00:04:01] [SPEAKER_03]: but no one actually places her in that car, which was a green 1998 Dodge Caravan.

[00:04:08] [SPEAKER_03]: That was later found parked on Clyde Avenue in Landsdown, Maryland.

[00:04:13] [SPEAKER_03]: The ignition key was broken off in the door,

[00:04:16] [SPEAKER_03]: and her purse items were not found in that car.

[00:04:22] [SPEAKER_03]: So for a long time, police believed that she disappeared going out to the store.

[00:04:28] [SPEAKER_03]: So presumably any number of things could happen there.

[00:04:31] [SPEAKER_03]: She could be abducted by a stranger on the way to the store in the parking lot, taken.

[00:04:38] [SPEAKER_03]: It could be really anything.

[00:04:41] [SPEAKER_03]: But what this Baltimore Police Department, I should say Baltimore County Police Department,

[00:04:49] [SPEAKER_03]: what they're saying now in this announcement is that nobody actually saw her leave her house

[00:04:55] [SPEAKER_03]: on Clark Boulevard in the Hail Thorpe subsection of Arbutus, Maryland.

[00:05:02] [SPEAKER_03]: Like no one saw that.

[00:05:04] [SPEAKER_03]: They went back through all the witnesses, and they feel that this earlier story

[00:05:08] [SPEAKER_03]: about her going to the store may actually be problematic.

[00:05:13] [SPEAKER_03]: It gets more interesting, and this is apparent in the earliest coverage by the

[00:05:18] [SPEAKER_03]: Baltimore Sun. This has been known for years. Dwight Russ Jr. was a philanderer.

[00:05:24] [SPEAKER_03]: He had multiple extramarital affairs. This was known throughout the community.

[00:05:30] [SPEAKER_03]: People would apparently approach the Baltimore Sun reporters and be like,

[00:05:33] [SPEAKER_03]: has he been arrested yet? People were so concerned about the extramarital

[00:05:37] [SPEAKER_03]: affairs angle. And to be clear, you can be a bad partner and still essentially

[00:05:45] [SPEAKER_03]: not be guilty of a crime. But I think it is important to note when someone goes missing

[00:05:49] [SPEAKER_03]: and someone is cheating on them. Essentially, this was all communicated to the police back in

[00:05:57] [SPEAKER_03]: the day. In addition to that, actually, I don't know whether it was one person or a number of

[00:06:06] [SPEAKER_03]: people, but it was communicated by Michelle's loved ones that it's possible that one of Dwight's

[00:06:11] [SPEAKER_03]: fair partners actually killed her, that they were concerned about that. And Michelle herself

[00:06:16] [SPEAKER_03]: was concerned enough about that to say, if anything happens to me, I think it's this.

[00:06:21] [SPEAKER_03]: So Dwight has denied any knowledge of the case for years.

[00:06:26] [SPEAKER_03]: The fact that police are questioning his original story about when she left the

[00:06:30] [SPEAKER_03]: house and what happened seems pretty concerning. Either way, it's believed that she met with

[00:06:35] [SPEAKER_03]: foul play and she's never been seen. I mean, there's no money taken out of her ATM, from ATMs

[00:06:42] [SPEAKER_03]: or checkbooks or any credit card activity. She was wearing a black v-neck shirt across necklace,

[00:06:49] [SPEAKER_03]: a diamond engagement ring and a blue sapphire ring. None of those have been found.

[00:06:53] [SPEAKER_03]: She was five foot four, 140 pounds with red hair and blue eyes. And if you have any

[00:06:58] [SPEAKER_03]: information about what happened to Michelle, please call 410-887-3943 or text 443-862-946.

[00:07:12] [SPEAKER_03]: And that will get you to the Baltimore County Police Department.

[00:07:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Please do that. It's an awful case and I hope they can get some answers.

[00:07:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Now we're going to move again to Hawaii. I guess this is a week where I've been in a bit of a

[00:07:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Hawaii mood. Maybe I'm angling to try to figure out a way to get to that great state. Who knows?

[00:07:39] [SPEAKER_02]: But earlier this week, of course, we talked about Mike Miski. This week,

[00:07:42] [SPEAKER_02]: we're going to talk about another Hawaii case that also goes back to the early 90s.

[00:07:48] [SPEAKER_02]: And my source for this was the CBS News. As I say, this goes back to the early 90s. It involves the

[00:07:58] [SPEAKER_02]: murder of a 23 year old woman named Dana Ireland. She was not actually a native of Hawaii.

[00:08:07] [SPEAKER_02]: She was a tourist and she was discovered beaten, barely alive in just along a fishing trail.

[00:08:19] [SPEAKER_02]: And she had also been sexually assaulted. And unfortunately, she did pass away.

[00:08:26] [SPEAKER_02]: And this was a crime that really haunted people in Hawaii for a while.

[00:08:33] [SPEAKER_02]: And it wasn't solved right away as you were certainly here. But after a few years,

[00:08:40] [SPEAKER_02]: a man came forward, a man named Frank Pauline Jr. He said, guess what? I'm a witness.

[00:08:46] [SPEAKER_02]: This crime was done by a couple of brothers. And so the problem there was this man Pauline,

[00:08:53] [SPEAKER_02]: some of his statements were inconsistent. He ended up incriminating not just the

[00:08:57] [SPEAKER_02]: brothers, but also himself. They ended up going to jail, going to prison.

[00:09:05] [SPEAKER_02]: One of these brothers ends up being in prison until night,

[00:09:10] [SPEAKER_02]: ends up actually being in prison until 2023. He was released after the DNA evidence clears him.

[00:09:18] [SPEAKER_02]: This DNA evidence is used to link another person to the crime. The person that is linked to the crime

[00:09:28] [SPEAKER_02]: is a man named Albert Loro Jr. Now, the problem is the nature of the DNA evidence. It

[00:09:37] [SPEAKER_02]: definitely tied him to the sexual assault of this woman. But it did not necessarily tie

[00:09:45] [SPEAKER_02]: him to the murder. And why that is crucial is because all these years later, the statute of

[00:09:52] [SPEAKER_02]: limitations for the rape have run out. And the statute of limitations for murder, of course,

[00:09:59] [SPEAKER_02]: has not. So they called him in and had a conversation, shall we say, with him.

[00:10:05] [SPEAKER_02]: Perhaps acquainted him with some of the facts, but they ultimately were not able to hold him.

[00:10:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Because again, in their minds, they did not have probable cause to hold him for a crime

[00:10:15] [SPEAKER_02]: that was still under the statute of limitations. And so he was allowed to go.

[00:10:22] [SPEAKER_02]: And before they could develop more evidence against this man, he killed himself. He took

[00:10:28] [SPEAKER_02]: his own life. And so some people are very upset by this because they say, why didn't

[00:10:36] [SPEAKER_02]: the police just keep him? And certainly with hindsight, you wish the police could have figured

[00:10:44] [SPEAKER_02]: out a way to keep him. But I'm not sure I disagree with their analysis that they didn't have the

[00:10:49] [SPEAKER_03]: probable cause of that time. Here's the real issue. There shouldn't be a statute of limitations

[00:10:54] [SPEAKER_03]: on sexual assault. That's the issue on rape. I think that's outrageous that there would

[00:11:01] [SPEAKER_03]: be, especially with the advent of DNA. I hope to see laws being changed because

[00:11:08] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't think there should be a statute of limitations around that,

[00:11:11] [SPEAKER_03]: nor should there be one for murder. But I don't agree. Unless there's something I don't know about,

[00:11:18] [SPEAKER_03]: that sounds like they could not keep him. You can't just lock people up because

[00:11:22] [SPEAKER_03]: you know it's them. You have to follow the law.

[00:11:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. I feel awful for the family of this young woman who was taken from us all back in the early

[00:11:34] [SPEAKER_02]: 90s. Certainly that and certainly some of the things Ian shared with us earlier this week.

[00:11:42] [SPEAKER_02]: There were some problems with Hawaii law enforcement.

[00:11:45] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, I'll criticize. I don't feel like the current modern day department is to blame for

[00:11:53] [SPEAKER_03]: that. But it sounds like they convicted three innocent people.

[00:12:00] [SPEAKER_03]: That's not good. I think they should be criticized for that. I mean these brothers,

[00:12:05] [SPEAKER_03]: some of these men wasted years in prison for something they didn't do. That's outrageous.

[00:12:12] [SPEAKER_03]: Surely when someone's story is changing that much, I'd really like to know what exactly

[00:12:18] [SPEAKER_03]: they were basing these feelings. It was these brothers because if a guy comes up and inserts

[00:12:22] [SPEAKER_03]: himself into the case, I can understand thinking it's him. But thinking of the guys he's throwing

[00:12:28] [SPEAKER_03]: under the bus, I mean if his story keeps changing then I'm going to look more at him.

[00:12:33] [SPEAKER_03]: He brought that on himself to a certain level but I mean I don't know maybe there was some sort

[00:12:37] [SPEAKER_03]: of mental health issue. I just don't without knowing. This is something we all have to be

[00:12:41] [SPEAKER_02]: really wary of. Not just in true crime but in life. The more you want something,

[00:12:47] [SPEAKER_02]: the more you want something to be true, the more you have to question it to make sure it is true.

[00:12:54] [SPEAKER_02]: And certainly when a major crime goes unsolved for years there is always a human cry and all of us

[00:13:02] [SPEAKER_02]: want it to be solved. All of us want the family of the victims to receive justice but we can't

[00:13:09] [SPEAKER_02]: let that blind us and lead us to convict a person who's not guilty of it.

[00:13:18] [SPEAKER_03]: That's correct. And this is also why it's very important to hold back details of a crime

[00:13:24] [SPEAKER_03]: and to be able to because you I mean it's hard to believe but people do confess to crimes they

[00:13:29] [SPEAKER_03]: didn't commit for a number of reasons. From coercion, from mental illness, from looking for

[00:13:35] [SPEAKER_03]: attention, from looking for notoriety, any number of things. From wanting to blame somebody else

[00:13:41] [SPEAKER_03]: for something, get them in trouble. I mean people lie. This should not be surprising in 2024. People

[00:13:48] [SPEAKER_03]: do lie and you have to sift the liars from somebody telling the truth and the way to do that is

[00:13:56] [SPEAKER_03]: to have information about the crime scene that nobody knows, that is not out in the press,

[00:14:03] [SPEAKER_02]: that nobody can just cobble together. You don't want prosecutors to file charges against someone

[00:14:09] [SPEAKER_02]: just because oh it seems plausible that that person might be guilty. You want them to only

[00:14:14] [SPEAKER_02]: file charges when they are confident that they can prove it. In the Delphi case I think a

[00:14:20] [SPEAKER_02]: prosecutor Nick McLean deserves a lot of credit for not filing charges in that case until

[00:14:27] [SPEAKER_02]: he felt a certain level of confidence that he could tie a particular person to the crime

[00:14:32] [SPEAKER_03]: scene with fiscal evidence. Yeah and I just, I think that looking at this I understand that DNA

[00:14:39] [SPEAKER_03]: was not necessarily always as much of a factor so it sounds like the DNA testing came in after

[00:14:46] [SPEAKER_03]: these various arrests and convictions but it's still disturbing and it still led to a

[00:14:52] [SPEAKER_03]: bad outcome for everybody because it doesn't serve the Ireland family if the wrong guys are

[00:14:59] [SPEAKER_03]: are in prison and I just, I mean my heart goes out to Dana Ireland she was only 23,

[00:15:03] [SPEAKER_03]: she's riding her bicycle on a fishing trail on the big island and she's on vacation. Yeah she's

[00:15:09] [SPEAKER_03]: on vacation with her family they find the bike all run over seemingly by a vehicle and she

[00:15:14] [SPEAKER_02]: was sexually assaulted and beaten. On vacation probably look forward to this trip for a while

[00:15:23] [SPEAKER_02]: expensive to go it's a big deal to go she should have just been able to have fun and come back and

[00:15:29] [SPEAKER_02]: live the rest of her life this never should have happened. Yeah some creep took her life and then never

[00:15:34] [SPEAKER_03]: even paid any consequences for it whereas three guys who didn't do it ended up spending years of

[00:15:41] [SPEAKER_03]: their life incarcerated it's just all around a disaster so let's next go to a somewhat similar

[00:15:50] [SPEAKER_03]: case actually out of Texas my sources for this were KTAB and Fox News as well as the

[00:15:55] [SPEAKER_03]: Fort Worth Star Telegram access to VNNewsPapers.com and the Oxygen website so you often hear about

[00:16:03] [SPEAKER_03]: cold cases ending because by the time investigators get DNA the suspect was already dead. Kevin

[00:16:09] [SPEAKER_03]: just outlined a case where they just didn't quite get enough for the crime they needed to so

[00:16:14] [SPEAKER_03]: the guy was able to commit suicide in this situation it didn't really quite happen that

[00:16:18] [SPEAKER_03]: way or seemingly it didn't but it's it's sort of a similar situation in a way. On March 8th 1982

[00:16:25] [SPEAKER_03]: a man named Billy Charles Brown made a horrifying discovery in his family's home in west Texas

[00:16:31] [SPEAKER_03]: he said he came back around 4 a.m from work at the New Corp supply core and he found his 30-year-old

[00:16:41] [SPEAKER_03]: common-law wife Susanna Flores Brown and her eight-year-old daughter his stepdaughter Francesca

[00:16:48] [SPEAKER_03]: Antoinette Martinez he found them dead the Abilene Police Department responded and they also found

[00:16:57] [SPEAKER_03]: this horrifying crime scene. Francesca the little girl was on the floor partially under her bed

[00:17:03] [SPEAKER_03]: strangled by a phone cord Susanna was on the floor beaten strangled seemingly with a lamp

[00:17:10] [SPEAKER_03]: cord or at least one was wrapped wrapped around her neck and smeared with feces that was not from

[00:17:15] [SPEAKER_03]: her own body and Susanna actually did die by manual strangulation someone strangled her with

[00:17:21] [SPEAKER_03]: their hands the scene was staged and she had also been beaten with a lamp the whole scene had been

[00:17:27] [SPEAKER_03]: staged to look like a break-in so despite just finding his wife and stepdaughter dead in

[00:17:32] [SPEAKER_03]: horrifying circumstances Billy Brown was in a pretty good mood when the investigators got

[00:17:36] [SPEAKER_03]: there he was joking with them and digging into him investigators found that he was very abusive

[00:17:42] [SPEAKER_03]: towards his family Francesca would actually often hide under that bed when Brown was being

[00:17:48] [SPEAKER_03]: abusive toward them there was talk about Susanna possibly getting a gun to defend herself

[00:17:53] [SPEAKER_03]: changing the locks wanting to get away from this guy and you know they say like everyone

[00:17:58] [SPEAKER_03]: reacts differently when faced with a horrific situation and I do agree with that I think

[00:18:03] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm actually going to talk a little bit about this at the end of the episode but people have

[00:18:07] [SPEAKER_03]: different situations they have different experiences they can be neurodivergent I think sometimes too

[00:18:14] [SPEAKER_03]: much is made out of initial reactions or 911 calls that being said

[00:18:22] [SPEAKER_03]: is there something off-putting about joking about things like this when you know your family is

[00:18:27] [SPEAKER_03]: dead around you yes definitely I think that's fair to say so in more recent times Brown was

[00:18:36] [SPEAKER_03]: very uncooperative when initially asked for his DNA samples that they wanted to compare to the crime

[00:18:40] [SPEAKER_03]: scene eventually police got a warrant in July 2023 to compare his DNA to seminal fluid found

[00:18:46] [SPEAKER_03]: in Susanna's mouth he was ultimately forced to comply with that warrant and said quote

[00:18:52] [SPEAKER_03]: I think I just signed my death warrant end quote after giving that DNA he was arrested on October

[00:18:58] [SPEAKER_03]: 2023 but ultimately released on a $200,000 bond on February 23rd 2024 at a hearing Brown laughed

[00:19:06] [SPEAKER_03]: and joked with reporters afterwards and this was all supposed to go to trial on September 16th

[00:19:13] [SPEAKER_03]: 2024 of this year obviously and it will never go to trial because he died on July 27th 2024

[00:19:21] [SPEAKER_03]: at the age of 66 it's not clear how he died but either way Billy Charles Brown got to live a long

[00:19:28] [SPEAKER_03]: life with a long-term marriage children stepchildren Susanna and Francesca had their

[00:19:34] [SPEAKER_03]: lives stolen so it's a pretty disappointing end to this story but unfortunately it's what happens

[00:19:43] [SPEAKER_03]: when a case it's a risk it could be a risk when a case is not solved quickly it is

[00:19:51] [SPEAKER_02]: well let's move over to Colorado I found this story in the Denver Post and this involves a

[00:20:00] [SPEAKER_02]: professor at Regis University which is located of course in Denver this is a man named nickel

[00:20:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Michael bust and he has just been charged with first-degree murder in the death of his wife

[00:20:13] [SPEAKER_02]: sarin kim she's also or was also 44 years old he claims that he happened to come upon his wife

[00:20:24] [SPEAKER_02]: on the floor not breathing and with blood coming from her head and he speculated that

[00:20:32] [SPEAKER_02]: perhaps she had fallen from a step stool but she had injuries that were not consistent

[00:20:40] [SPEAKER_02]: with a fall and meanwhile Mr. Michael burst himself had scratches and bruises on him he denied killing

[00:20:49] [SPEAKER_02]: his his wife but as I say he was charged what's interesting is that the family's the couple's

[00:20:58] [SPEAKER_02]: daughter two and a half months old two and a half months old Leslie Kim she was also dead at the

[00:21:07] [SPEAKER_02]: scene she did not have any injuries that were apparent so it is not clear how she died so at

[00:21:15] [SPEAKER_02]: this time he's not facing charges there but it is definitely worth noting that this is not the

[00:21:21] [SPEAKER_02]: first baby to die while he was taking care of her they the couple earlier had a child

[00:21:30] [SPEAKER_02]: bear Michael bust or michael bust and when bear was nine days old he died after suffering skull

[00:21:37] [SPEAKER_02]: fractures and no charges were filed at that time he is facing charges for the death of his wife

[00:21:46] [SPEAKER_02]: and it would not shock me or I guess probably wouldn't shock many of you if he also ultimately

[00:21:52] [SPEAKER_02]: ended up facing charges in the death of the child and it is very frustrating that the death of the

[00:22:01] [SPEAKER_02]: first child was not investigated more thoroughly because I certainly wonder if that was also the

[00:22:09] [SPEAKER_03]: result of foul play by this man I mean skull fractures on a nine-day old yeah barring some kind

[00:22:16] [SPEAKER_03]: of medical ailment I wonder how they explain that I know accidents can happen but nonetheless

[00:22:25] [SPEAKER_02]: police did not offer any comment on that that happened back in 2021 was investigated at the

[00:22:31] [SPEAKER_02]: time no charges filed maybe there's something some detail we don't know that would explain that

[00:22:37] [SPEAKER_02]: but it is frustrating because if it had been determined at that time that that child died as

[00:22:44] [SPEAKER_02]: the result of foul play by this man then his wife would still be alive so is it possible though that

[00:22:51] [SPEAKER_03]: that the death of the first baby won't even come into this because it oftentimes there really has

[00:22:57] [SPEAKER_03]: to be a reason to bring other acts into a case you can't just say okay kevin's on trial so

[00:23:04] [SPEAKER_03]: here's every bad thing he may or may not have done in his life because that's prejudicial to

[00:23:08] [SPEAKER_03]: a jury there has to be some real factual basis for it to come into trial you know we talk about

[00:23:15] [SPEAKER_03]: trial in the delphi case and I think what a lot of people don't understand they think basically

[00:23:19] [SPEAKER_03]: it's like throw everything at the wall not not quite there's there's rules about what can come in

[00:23:25] [SPEAKER_03]: and it's even stricter for prosecutors you can't just throw everything at somebody because again

[00:23:31] [SPEAKER_03]: it might be prejudicial cases get overturned for that right yeah if you want to charge ania

[00:23:38] [SPEAKER_02]: with the crime of stealing cereal you don't want to say well you know six years ago ania also

[00:23:47] [SPEAKER_02]: stole a bowl of fruit because that doesn't really shed any light on what she's currently

[00:23:53] [SPEAKER_02]: being charged with and it just creates the impression oh ania is a bad person she

[00:23:58] [SPEAKER_02]: seems to type that would steal cereal and that's not the way the system is supposed to work because

[00:24:03] [SPEAKER_02]: they're a bunch of you can be a bad person and not be guilty of the particular crime that you

[00:24:08] [SPEAKER_02]: are charged with so you can only bring in character evidence in certain limited circumstances

[00:24:15] [SPEAKER_03]: yeah absolutely yeah it's it's very upsetting and so I hope I hope there are answers here

[00:24:22] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean just a little baby like that that's just upsetting it's horrifying so to conclude

[00:24:30] [SPEAKER_03]: this episode of the cheat sheet I wanted to read out something that we got from Anissa Leonta

[00:24:36] [SPEAKER_03]: she runs the wild of brain sub-stack about neurodivergence she herself is a neurodivergence

[00:24:42] [SPEAKER_03]: specialist coach and educator and an advisor with altogether autism and she herself is autistic

[00:24:47] [SPEAKER_03]: and has ADHD so she wrote an open letter to true crime creators and I found this to be a very helpful

[00:24:54] [SPEAKER_03]: resource for all of us to try to do a good job covering things like neurodivergence and mental

[00:25:00] [SPEAKER_03]: health and mental illness which are all topics in the criminal justice space I'm going to link

[00:25:06] [SPEAKER_03]: to that letter in the show notes check it out subscribe spread the word I want to say we

[00:25:11] [SPEAKER_02]: have a person very very close to us who happens to be uh neurodivergent yeah so we try to be sensitive

[00:25:22] [SPEAKER_02]: to this and we continue to do so it's a very serious subject and one thing that drives me

[00:25:28] [SPEAKER_03]: up the wall when I see this and I guess everyone can be capable of accidentally doing this but

[00:25:35] [SPEAKER_03]: we really try not to is when I see especially on things like TikTok and YouTube people analyzing

[00:25:42] [SPEAKER_03]: others facial expressions in true crime and saying well this means he's guilty or he's innocent

[00:25:49] [SPEAKER_03]: let's all stop doing that because that really never takes into account anybody who's neurodivergent

[00:25:54] [SPEAKER_03]: for instance a lot of people say oh it's really suspicious that this guy's not

[00:25:57] [SPEAKER_03]: in not making eye contact people who are neurodivergent may struggle to make eye contact

[00:26:03] [SPEAKER_03]: that might be a lot and doesn't mean they're guilty like it we don't have to do this you know

[00:26:10] [SPEAKER_03]: that's why I mean I I feel even uncomfortable like people will always ask us like did Richard I

[00:26:15] [SPEAKER_03]: Richard Allen in the Delphi case ever make eye contact I'll tell you he did and I'll tell you

[00:26:18] [SPEAKER_03]: it kind of looked like a glare but I'll be the first to tell you I don't know what's in his mind

[00:26:22] [SPEAKER_03]: he might be glaring he might be just staring intently he might be just kind of looking out

[00:26:27] [SPEAKER_03]: into space I'm one of those people with a with a resting panicked face I you know people talk about

[00:26:33] [SPEAKER_03]: like you know sometimes when your face is just relax what does it look like I remember if I'd be

[00:26:38] [SPEAKER_03]: walking around campus at my college and my friends would see me afterwards they'd be like are you

[00:26:41] [SPEAKER_03]: okay like you looked really freaked out like no I'm just going to class like I just but this

[00:26:45] [SPEAKER_03]: is my face um so I think we all have to remember that but again with with people who are neurodivergent

[00:26:50] [SPEAKER_03]: things that are like quote unquote socially acceptable you know about eye contact or how they're speaking

[00:27:01] [SPEAKER_03]: that that can be different and and we shouldn't be essentially accusing people based on

[00:27:07] [SPEAKER_03]: on minor differences there because it has no bearing on evidence or facts it's just about

[00:27:14] [SPEAKER_03]: what we're comfortable with and and there can be certain situations I mentioned one today

[00:27:19] [SPEAKER_03]: where it's like if you're laughing and chuckling with uh first responders after your

[00:27:23] [SPEAKER_03]: wife and stepdaughter have been found dead well I think that's fair to say that's a bit off-putting

[00:27:28] [SPEAKER_03]: but if it's something like you're overwhelmed and not make a guy contact or perhaps like

[00:27:34] [SPEAKER_03]: stimming like that shouldn't be seen as anything other than this person may be neurodivergent

[00:27:41] [SPEAKER_03]: in the in the criminal justice system I imagine there are a lot of people who are

[00:27:44] [SPEAKER_03]: actually undiagnosed and actually factually neurodivergent so it's like they're they're kind of uh

[00:27:52] [SPEAKER_02]: at a disadvantage with this whole thing yeah and it brings to mind for those reasons

[00:27:59] [SPEAKER_02]: and for other reasons it can be hard to read people and figure out oh this is a

[00:28:06] [SPEAKER_02]: decent person or this is not a decent person based on external factors but yeah I'll include

[00:28:11] [SPEAKER_03]: a link to this open uh this open letter from Anissa I think it's helpful for people for creators

[00:28:17] [SPEAKER_03]: and listeners to listen to and like I mean read or read rather read and I hold myself accountable

[00:28:24] [SPEAKER_03]: too I know I use terms like crazy or insane or nuts way too much I don't mean to I'm not trying

[00:28:30] [SPEAKER_03]: to enhance stigma of mental illness I myself deal with a lot of issues around generalized anxiety

[00:28:35] [SPEAKER_03]: disorder but I will strive to reduce that and and not just let that slip out I'm not looking to add

[00:28:42] [SPEAKER_03]: to any further stigma of things like mental illness or neurodivergence or anything else and so I will

[00:28:47] [SPEAKER_03]: try to use things like wild outrageous shocking more neutral terms but I think there's stuff

[00:28:52] [SPEAKER_03]: everyone can do better in the true crime space when talking about these issues

[00:28:56] [SPEAKER_02]: so we're like wild outrageous and shocking yeah so let me so for instance it would be fine if

[00:29:02] [SPEAKER_02]: I said I'm just wild about these new t-shirts it's outrageous that more people aren't buying them

[00:29:09] [SPEAKER_02]: makes it sound like it's shocking don't you think every man woman child on this planet

[00:29:16] [SPEAKER_02]: should have one of these t-shirts so you're saying and I'm talking about of course

[00:29:19] [SPEAKER_02]: murder sheet people t-shirts very attractive garments Christ quite affordably quite reasonably

[00:29:25] [SPEAKER_02]: and they're available at the fine on murder sheets shop.com yes they are wow you uh you had

[00:29:32] [SPEAKER_03]: a nice little ad there yeah thank you welcome that's how it's done that's how oh my gosh I'm not even

[00:29:39] [SPEAKER_01]: sure if in last week's ad you even told people where they could buy them I don't think I did I don't

[00:29:43] [SPEAKER_01]: think you did what a disaster yeah you're thinking well people would just go on the internet and by

[00:30:04] [SPEAKER_02]: random chance just happened to stumble across murder sheet shop. How hard is it? The links are

[00:30:09] [SPEAKER_03]: all the show notes if people don't know it by now I don't know what to say it sounds like you're angry

[00:30:16] [SPEAKER_03]: at people for not knowing it was your failure fight all of you no it was my feeling that's fair

[00:30:22] [SPEAKER_01]: blaming the listeners. Is the interest in any time any week we let you do the ad sales plummet

[00:30:33] [SPEAKER_03]: and now we know one big reason why well why don't you just do all the ads Mr. Charmers

[00:30:39] [SPEAKER_03]: Mr. Charming Charmingly see she can't even do snark well I just I'm so tired I can't

[00:30:48] [SPEAKER_03]: and you know what if you want to do the ads if you want to be the ad man if you want to be our

[00:30:52] [SPEAKER_03]: in-house Don Draper by all means I don't care does that also mean you will stop you will

[00:31:00] [SPEAKER_03]: stop lambasting me for my ad lambasted you and I I feel like you just have had me do the ad so

[00:31:08] [SPEAKER_03]: you can embarrass me in front of the listeners and ridicule last week I'm basting me sir I built you

[00:31:16] [SPEAKER_03]: up last week yeah but that was all fake it was to see me come tumbling off the mountain

[00:31:21] [SPEAKER_03]: that was just phony you're all like Anya the goddess of sales and then you're like what you

[00:31:28] [SPEAKER_03]: really think is every time we don't let you do it people start demanding refunds and so I think

[00:31:35] [SPEAKER_01]: you should just be the ad man from now on okay then no more talk about my transitions not being

[00:31:40] [SPEAKER_03]: artful I just don't want you to go from something really serious to something ridiculous in in 30

[00:31:47] [SPEAKER_03]: set I think that's off putting to everybody as opposed to what you do I'm not saying it's

[00:31:56] [SPEAKER_03]: my strong suit I just I don't I don't want to I don't want to sound I don't I don't want to sound

[00:32:01] [SPEAKER_02]: facetious you want to be you was on very unfacetious mm-hmm you want to start off the hook when you're

[00:32:08] [SPEAKER_03]: talking about these t-shirts exactly off the hook you really said that you know whatever

[00:32:16] [SPEAKER_02]: sounds pretty dope I hope all you guys have a fly weekend we're talking about

[00:32:23] [SPEAKER_02]: off thanks so much for listening to the murder sheet if you have a tip concerning one of the

[00:32:29] [SPEAKER_02]: cases we cover please email us at murder sheet at gmail.com if you have actionable information

[00:32:38] [SPEAKER_02]: about an unsolved crime please report it to the appropriate authorities

[00:32:44] [SPEAKER_03]: if you're interested in joining our patreon that's available at www.patreon.com

[00:32:52] [SPEAKER_03]: slash murder sheet if you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests you can do so at

[00:32:59] [SPEAKER_03]: www.buymeacoffee.com slash murder sheet we very much appreciate any support special thanks to

[00:33:09] [SPEAKER_02]: Kevin Tyler Greenlee who composed the music for the murder sheet and who you can find on the web

[00:33:15] [SPEAKER_03]: at kevintg.com if you're looking to talk with other listeners about a case we've covered you

[00:33:22] [SPEAKER_03]: can join the murder sheet discussion group on facebook we mostly focus our time on research

[00:33:28] [SPEAKER_03]: and reporting so we're not on social media much we do try to check our email account but we

[00:33:34] [SPEAKER_03]: ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages thanks again for listening

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