The Cheat Sheet: Trials and Transports

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_03] The Murder Sheet keeps us super busy and so sometimes between writing and podcasting and trying to sell these t-shirts, we don't do a great job of taking care of ourselves. That's probably something a lot of people can relate to. We're all busy people with jobs and families and obligations. It can be hard putting yourself and your own health first.

[00:00:17] [SPEAKER_01] Our brand new sponsor Prolon can help. Prolon's fasting mimicking diet is a plant-based nutrition program that is backed by science. It takes all the fuss out of fasting. Instead of giving up food, you undergo a five-day program where you enjoy snacks, soups and beverages designed to make your body's cells believe they are fasting.

[00:00:41] [SPEAKER_03] It's designed to give a serious boost to your metabolic and cardiovascular health. Plus, it's a no-brainer. Your food comes in prepackaged and labeled so you know what to eat and when. They found that three consecutive Prolon cycles can reduce your biological age score by 2.5 years and cut your waist circumference down by 1.5 inches. Plus, it gets you down to a healthier blood sugar level.

[00:01:04] [SPEAKER_00] Fast with food. Take charge of your health. Try Prolon.

[00:01:07] [SPEAKER_03] To help you kickstart a health plan that truly works, Prolon is offering Murder Sheet listeners 15% off site-wide plus a $40 bonus gift when you subscribe to their five-day nutrition program. Just visit prolonlife.com slash msheet. That's P-R-O-L-O-N-L-I-F-E dot com slash msheet to claim your 15% discount and your bonus gift. Prolonlife slash msheet.

[00:01:33] [SPEAKER_03] Add some luxury into your life without breaking the bank. Check out our wonderful sponsor, Quince.

[00:01:39] [SPEAKER_01] This is a brand that's unlocking luxury products for all of us ordinary people. All the things that sound pricey and out of reach like washable silk shirts and dresses, 14-karat gold jewelry, European linens, Italian leather handbags, sweaters of Mongolian cashmere and organic cotton. That's what Quince offers, but at an unbeatable price.

[00:02:01] [SPEAKER_03] All Quince items are 50-80% less costly than those of their competitors. It's an amazing deal. They cut down the middleman and pass the savings on to you. And remember, by supporting our sponsors, you're supporting our show.

[00:02:14] [SPEAKER_01] We recently gifted ourselves some pieces from Quince. I got their suede bomber jacket. This one is very stylish and it keeps me really warm, which is helpful because it's been a cold winter. I also like the way I look in it, which is big for me.

[00:02:27] [SPEAKER_03] Give yourself the luxury you deserve with Quince. Go to quince.com slash msheet for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's quince.com slash msheet to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com slash msheet.

[00:02:46] [SPEAKER_01] Content warning. This episode contains discussion of murder and violence.

[00:02:53] [SPEAKER_03] Thanks, everyone, for joining us with this week's cheat sheet. We're going to be talking about the murder of Rachel Morin.

[00:03:00] [SPEAKER_01] Also be discussing the murders of Jared Wright again and Dan Markle.

[00:03:04] [SPEAKER_03] We'll be discussing Dennis Rader, a.k.a. the BTK serial killer and some recent updates in his case.

[00:03:10] [SPEAKER_01] Also, there's been some recent updates in the University of Idaho murder case, which we will be discussing.

[00:03:15] [SPEAKER_03] Lastly, we'll be getting into the murder of Marion County Sheriff's Deputy John Durham, which happened in Indianapolis this past year. My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist.

[00:03:26] [SPEAKER_01] And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney. And this is The Murder Sheet. We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews and deep dives into murder cases. We're The Murder Sheet.

[00:03:38] [SPEAKER_03] And this is The Cheat Sheet. Trials and Transports.

[00:03:42] [SPEAKER_03] So to kick off, we'll be discussing the case of Rachel Morin.

[00:04:31] [SPEAKER_03] This is a mom of five in Maryland who was out for a walk or a jog on the Ma and Paw Trail in Bel Air, Maryland. And she was unfortunately murdered. Now, Harford County Sheriff's Office, which is the lead agency on this case, they have a DNA match to their suspect. This suspect, they note, to be 5'9", 160 pounds. He's early to mid-20s. He's a Hispanic male.

[00:04:58] [SPEAKER_03] We know that he assaulted a young child during a home invasion in Los Angeles in March. So this person is basically doing a nationwide crime spree. And Harford County Sheriff Jeff Gaylor told the local Fox affiliate, this individual poses a threat to every community from here to Los Angeles because we don't know where he's laying his head at night. Look at this video of this person. You can kind of see his profile. You can see him from behind. It's important that this person is found because he's obviously preying on the vulnerable.

[00:05:28] [SPEAKER_01] And there's a lot of concern that if he's not caught relatively soon, he might have other victims.

[00:05:34] [SPEAKER_03] Absolutely. And if you recognize this person, we're going to include a court TV link. So you're going to be able to look at the video again and again. Check it out. If you recognize him, please call the sheriff's office in Maryland at 410-836-7738 or shoot them an email at rmtips at harfordsheriff.org. That's H-A-R-F-O-R-D-S-H-E-R-I-F-F dot org.

[00:06:02] [SPEAKER_03] And remember, they don't need to hear from you about like what DNA they should use. They already know that. They've got the guy. Just only people who may have a lead on where this person is.

[00:06:12] [SPEAKER_01] Let's talk about the latest in the murder of Jared Brightigan. This, of course, was a Microsoft executive who was murdered back in February of 2022 in Jacksonville Beach, Florida. He had taken his children there to visit his ex-wife.

[00:06:27] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah, he's taking his twins who he shares with his ex-wife, Shanna Gardner Fernandez. And, you know, it's supposed to be a family visit. He drops them off. He's driving with his two-year-old that he shares with his new wife. And somebody puts a tire in the road. He gets out presumably to move it and is gunned down. So police are looking at this. You know, this could be a targeted hit going after him specifically.

[00:06:52] [SPEAKER_03] And they have basically rounded up three people in connection with this, including Mario Fernandez, Shanna Gardner Fernandez's husband, and now recently Shanna Gardner Fernandez. So one development that came out is Fox News Digital exclusively obtained body camera footage showing the arrest of Shanna Gardner Fernandez in Washington. And you can hear her 12-year-old twins talking in the background.

[00:07:20] [SPEAKER_03] You're seeing her get cuffed and walked out. You're seeing her mother, Shelley Gardner, who is, of course, the co-founder of Stampin' Up!, a notable Utah multilevel marketing scheme, crying in the background. It's very dramatic. I know one person asked us recently a good question about extradition. That's become a wrinkle here because she's getting arrested in Washington. She's wanted in Florida. So what happens now?

[00:07:45] [SPEAKER_03] They noted that, you know, Koberger, Brian Koberger, the suspect in the Idaho murders case.

[00:07:51] [SPEAKER_01] Of course, we'll be talking about him a little bit later. Yeah. He was arrested in one state and then is taken back to Idaho relatively quickly.

[00:08:01] [SPEAKER_03] Pennsylvania to Idaho.

[00:08:01] [SPEAKER_01] And this happens in his case very quickly, certainly more quickly than what seems to be going on in this case.

[00:08:07] [SPEAKER_03] And the reason for that is he waived extradition.

[00:08:10] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:08:10] [SPEAKER_03] He didn't fight it. He just said, all right, take me back to Idaho.

[00:08:14] [SPEAKER_01] And there's different strategic reasons for why a person might want to make the courts go through the extradition process. Or there's strategic or there's also strategic reasons why maybe you don't want to bother. But the important thing is, is generally speaking, if one state wants to extradite somebody from another state. That happens.

[00:08:38] [SPEAKER_03] There's a whole provision for this in the U.S. Constitution. There's a whole extradition clause. And it basically.

[00:08:46] [SPEAKER_01] It says basically there's only a handful of reasons why one state can deny extradition of a fugitive to another state. Yeah.

[00:08:55] [SPEAKER_03] Governors in this day and age, governors hands are essentially tied. They can't. There's four circumstances that I'll read out quickly. Otherwise, you got to send the person. So, one, the extradition documents are not in order. The state messed up. Yeah.

[00:09:10] [SPEAKER_01] So that makes sense. Very little gets done in government if the paperwork is not in order.

[00:09:17] [SPEAKER_03] Yes. And here's another.

[00:09:18] [SPEAKER_01] And apparently that was even an issue back in the era in which we wrote the Constitution.

[00:09:22] [SPEAKER_03] Yes. Two, the person has not been charged with the crime. So I can't just be the governor of Indiana. Kevin's out there in New York. And I can't just say, New York, bring him to me. Well, what did he do? Nothing. But I just I need to talk to him quickly. They're not going to do that.

[00:09:39] [SPEAKER_01] Number three, the person is not the person named in the extradition document.

[00:09:43] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah, that would obviously be a problem.

[00:09:45] [SPEAKER_01] So, like, if they want to extradite Anya from New York and it has my name on the document, that's not good enough.

[00:09:53] [SPEAKER_03] No, can't do it. And then the other one is the person is not a fugitive. So I guess that would also kind of indicate that they haven't been charged with anything. You can't be a fugitive if you're not charged. So based on that, extraditions are pretty much honored between the states. And in Shanna Gardner Fernandez's case, she seems to be potentially fighting extradition.

[00:10:16] [SPEAKER_03] So we, you know, that that can delay things a bit, can delay things certainly more than if you just waive it. But I suppose we'll see what happens going forward. One case that we sort of were discussing recently that bears a few, at least on the surface, similarities to Jared Bridegan's case was the murder of Dan Markle. So Markle was a Canadian-born attorney.

[00:10:44] [SPEAKER_03] He was Harvard educated. That's where he got his JD from. He was a law professor. So, you know, he was a very prominent figure. Now, on July 18, 2014, he is gunned down at his home in Tallahassee, Florida. He didn't die immediately, but he died the following day. Basically, from the beginning, the Tallahassee Police Department indicated that they felt there was a plot against him. This was not some, like, robbery gone wrong.

[00:11:14] [SPEAKER_03] They felt that he was targeted. Now, the reason we bring it up in context of the Jared Bridegan case is that there were child custody issues between Dan Markle and his ex-wife, Wendy Adelson, who was also a law professor, who was actually working at Florida State University when this all happened.

[00:11:37] [SPEAKER_03] Police have named her, along with her brother Charlie, her mother Donna, as conspirators in the killing. That being said, Wendy has not yet been tried. Charlie, that being said, was arrested and his trial is scheduled for October of this year. So there's going to be a few things coming up on the horizon with that.

[00:12:01] [SPEAKER_03] But the things that stood out to me are you have a very prominent man and Jared Bridegan was a successful Microsoft executive. You have – and this person was a very prominent law professor and attorney. You have Florida and you have a conspiracy. It's not just one person who gets the idea, I want to kill this person.

[00:12:23] [SPEAKER_03] The cops are alleging in both cases that it's a wider conspiracy with people assigned different roles and there being motivations that stem from some sort of child custody dispute. So it's somewhat interesting. Whenever we're looking at cases, we try to see is there any sort of like precedent for this? Like is this a really unusual case or is it somewhat unusual but perhaps there's some parallels with other cases? And this was one that we found and that stood out to us.

[00:12:50] [SPEAKER_03] And it's also interesting because at least the former brother-in-law is certainly facing charges soon.

[00:12:58] [SPEAKER_01] That's the only one we'll be keeping an eye on. I believe he's facing a trial as soon as October.

[00:13:04] [SPEAKER_03] Yes, that's right. He was arrested in April of 2022. So – and he's been hit with first-degree murder and conspiracy charges. So Wendy and Donna, a.k.a. the victim's ex-wife and former mother-in-law are also – have been named as co-conspirators. So that's not just Kevin and I speculating. The police are coming out and saying that. They're not being charged though. So, you know, that kind of tells you where the evidence points to in terms of what they feel they have a strong case for. We like to automate things here at The Murder Sheet.

[00:13:33] [SPEAKER_03] We get all kinds of alerts about our episodes. We schedule emails in advance. We set reminders for ourselves to do interviews, lest we accidentally ghost a detective or a defense attorney. Automation makes life easier because it's one less thing to have to think about. That's why we love Acorns. This is an automatic investment service that's built to help everyone invest, no matter how much money you have.

[00:13:56] [SPEAKER_01] You've heard us speak about our sponsor, Acorns, before. Today's episode is sponsored by them. Acorns is a financial wellness app that makes it easy to start saving and investing for your future. You don't need to be an expert. Acorns were a recommended diversified portfolio that matches you and your money goals. You don't need to be rich. Acorns lets you get started with the spare money you've got right now, even if all you've got is spare change.

[00:14:21] [SPEAKER_03] I just wish we had had an app like Acorns back when we were just starting out. It would have saved us so much money-related time and stress because it's really a no-brainer. All it takes is $5 or even just your spare change. Sign up now and join the over 13 million all-time customers who have already saved and invested over $22 billion with Acorns. Head to acorns.com slash msheet or download the Acorns app to get started. Paid non-client endorsement. Compensation provides incentive to positively promote Acorns.

[00:14:51] [SPEAKER_03] Tier 1 compensation provided. Investing involves risk. Acorns Advisors LLC and SEC Registered Investment Advisor. View important disclosures at acorns.com slash msheet. Bouncing on to an old case with some new developments.

[00:15:05] [SPEAKER_01] This is the case of Dennis Rader.

[00:15:07] [SPEAKER_03] A.K.A. BTK. I don't really like referring to him as BTK because that's the name he gave himself. I prefer to call him by his real name.

[00:15:16] [SPEAKER_01] Let's call him Dennis Rader.

[00:15:17] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah, because he's a loser. He murdered 10 people in Kansas.

[00:15:23] [SPEAKER_01] He murdered at least 10 people.

[00:15:24] [SPEAKER_03] At least 10 people. He murdered at least 10 confirmed victims in Kansas, specifically Wichita and Park City. And he was actually active as a serial killer between the years of 1974 and 1991. So quite a run. And he, we've talked about this on the cheat sheet before, but rather hilariously, turned himself into police by basically having some sort of communication where he says, can you track me if I send you like a floppy disk? And they were like, oh, no.

[00:15:54] [SPEAKER_03] And then he sent it and then they tracked him. So, you know, not the criminal genius he certainly thought he was. So why are we talking about him? Well, why don't you lay it on us, Kevin?

[00:16:06] [SPEAKER_01] Police are investigating the possibility that he may have been involved in a couple of other disappearances. And murders. And murders. In 1976, a 16-year-old cheerleader named Cynthia Kinney disappeared. That case was reopened just back in December. And Rader has been named as a prime suspect in that case.

[00:16:31] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah, there's an interesting connection there, but it's also one that I am, frankly, a little bit skeptical of.

[00:16:36] [SPEAKER_01] Why is that?

[00:16:37] [SPEAKER_03] I did some digging on the case of Cynthia Kinney. So she's the 16-year-old. She's, by all accounts, very well adjusted, very happy, has friends. She's really excited because she just made the cheerleading squad. She's, for the summer, working at her aunt and uncle's laundromat in Pahuska, Oklahoma. And it's June 23rd. She's eating a sweet roll.

[00:17:06] [SPEAKER_03] You know, has her purse there at the laundromat. Witnesses are in the laundromat. And they say that two women approach her and she leaves with them. She's then seen getting into a beige 1965 or 1966 model Plymouth, which is described as being driven by either a young man or two men.

[00:17:32] [SPEAKER_03] One thing that's very important for the Raider connection is across the street, there is either an extant bank or a bank that is under construction. Why is that important for Dennis Raider? Well, Dennis Raider, according to the Associated Press's report on this whole recent development, was a ADT technician.

[00:17:58] [SPEAKER_03] So he's a regional installer and he would have been potentially installing these alarms across the street. Unclear to me from the reports from the 70s whether, again, the bank was being constructed at the time or whether it was just being remodeled with new alarms and stuff. Now, KAKETV locally notes that there's no confirmation at this point that Raider was the one actually installing the systems that day.

[00:18:28] [SPEAKER_03] But what police are looking at is we have this prolific serial killer potentially right across the street and then this girl goes missing at the same time. So that seems to be it. Now, what baffles me is then who are these women? Were all the witnesses wrong? Were all the witnesses maybe seeing somebody else leave the laundromat who was not Cynthia?

[00:18:56] [SPEAKER_01] Eyewitnesses often get things wrong.

[00:18:57] [SPEAKER_03] We know that eyewitnesses get stuff wrong all the time, even stuff that you would kind of hope they wouldn't get wrong. To be clear, the witnesses didn't say anything like, oh, they came in and threatened her. It was like they said it was very casual. She just walked out. She leaves her sweet roll, which she's already bitten into. She leaves her purse. She never comes back. This happens before 10 a.m. Then apparently around 10 a.m. Some of her friends come by to see her. She's she's already gone. And they were actually so concerned by that that they kind of report that she's missing.

[00:19:28] [SPEAKER_03] And it's one of those cases when you're reading the old newspaper clippings, you can tell how much the law enforcement people who worked on it and the prosecutor like they were haunted by this. They basically there was one quote from the prosecutor that was basically like we know as much about what happened to her as we did five minutes after she disappeared. And this is in the 80s. There was one kind of ray of somewhat hope in in 1981.

[00:19:52] [SPEAKER_03] One, police received a tip, an anonymous tip, and they felt there was enough there where they actually dug up the basement of a local man. But they found nothing and then concluded the tip was false. And he threatened to sue. They kind of ruined his house. He had no connection to her. So they were trying, but they just getting nowhere. But I would be curious, were they able to cross out some of those witness sightings?

[00:20:20] [SPEAKER_03] Would there be some reason that they could discount that or maybe find out that, oh, she was going off with her friends? Although, frankly, one weird thing is that the women who came up to her, one was described as 18 to 20. The other one was around 30. So older. I don't know. The proximity to a bank that he may have been working at is interesting.

[00:20:47] [SPEAKER_03] But I do think it's important to note that Raider, most of the confirmed crimes that he committed were home invasions that led to sexual assaults and murders, not abducting people from stores. I mean, people can switch up their MO. I'm not like that definitely happens. I'm just I'm just a little bit baffled by some of the witness. The fact that there were multiple witnesses. There's also seem to be witnesses across the street. I'd wonder about that.

[00:21:16] [SPEAKER_03] What's your take?

[00:21:17] [SPEAKER_01] I'd be curious about the thing with these cases is that often we know only a fragment of what law enforcement knows. And based on what's out there. I share your doubts and concerns about this and about the chances of it being connected to Raider. But there had to have been something that made them take this step. So I wonder if they have other additional information that they have not yet made public.

[00:21:47] [SPEAKER_03] One thing I've heard that I mean, I just have seen over time at different points were like, well, you know, he he he he admitted to all these different crimes. You know, but like, let's be like this man is not right. Like, I don't think we should just take his word for anything. Like, I'm not one of those people like, well, he admitted all these other ones for whatever sick reasons. People can you know, people are proven to do horrible things all the time.

[00:22:16] [SPEAKER_03] I don't think we need to necessarily just like his word is golden here. There's no way he's holding back. Who knows? There can be any number of reasons for holding back. I just think it doesn't really sound like what he was doing later. Well, then again, if he's not familiar with Oklahoma, I'll say this. If he's not familiar with Oklahoma, maybe he's just like, I'm going to do something different. I don't know. So I go back and forth. I'd be interested to know if they have anything other than him possibly working there. And the other case we have even less information on.

[00:22:46] [SPEAKER_03] This was a young woman. She was identified. She was called Grace Doe for years. Her body was found in December of 1990. This is in Missouri, in McDonald County. And she was raped. She was strangled. And she was also restrained with several different types of bindings. And coroner at the time estimated she was there for about two months before she was found. So, you know, she would have been killed in, I guess, October of 1990.

[00:23:15] [SPEAKER_03] Now, she was, again, known as Grace Doe for years until recently. When Othram ran her DNA, they were able to identify her in 2021 as 22-year-old Shawna Beth Gardner. It was really tragic. I saw one obituary of, I suppose, her foster brother. And she's listed in that he died. And she's listed as kind of being a possible survivor. But they note that her address is unknown. That was from the early 2000s. By that time, she was already dead for a decade.

[00:23:46] [SPEAKER_03] So she is the other person being looked at as a possible Raider connection. There's not as much information out about that. But they appear to be sort of digging up the excavating near Dennis Raider's old home, which has since been demolished in Park City, Kansas. So they're looking for some evidence to corroborate potentially what their theory is.

[00:24:08] [SPEAKER_01] And while we're on this topic, we should note that Raider's daughter, Carrie Rawson, has put on the service formerly known as Twitter that she has helped out with Osage County law enforcement on this case. She has said publicly that in the past she was a victim of such harassment from her father that she got a no-contact order against him. Well, that no-contact order was lifted.

[00:24:38] [SPEAKER_01] And she had a couple of visits with her father in an effort to get some information from him about these cases. And so kudos to her for working with law enforcement on this. I'm sure that had to be very, very difficult for her.

[00:24:54] [SPEAKER_03] So that, unfortunately, is a case, the case of BTK, which is, you know, dragged out for years and was not solved until years after many of the murders occurred. And now is dragging out even more as there may be additional victims or at least law enforcement will need to rule out Dennis Raider in some of these cases. There was one case that we were observing that we sort of thought might reach a conclusion sooner than later.

[00:25:21] [SPEAKER_01] Very, very quickly. This is the case of Brian Kohlberger, who, of course, has been charged in the quadruple homicide that took place near the University of Idaho last winter. There was a hearing in that case on August 18, 2023. That hearing seemed to largely focus on DNA issues.

[00:25:43] [SPEAKER_01] Namely, you know, the prosecution has said, you know, well, we found Kohlberger's DNA on a sheath, a knife sheath that was recovered from the crime scene. Therefore, that links him to the crime. His defense attorneys are saying, well, there's also DNA recovered from that house that has not yet been identified.

[00:26:07] [SPEAKER_03] But the prosecution is disputing that characterization.

[00:26:10] [SPEAKER_01] The prosecution is saying, well, we don't know what the defense is basically asking for reports and some more information about this allegedly unidentified DNA. The prosecution is like, we don't know what you want. We don't really have anything else. And I think it's important to stress that if there is unidentified DNA, this was a house belonging to college students.

[00:26:35] [SPEAKER_01] And those of you who've gone to college know that often in houses where college students live, there's a lot of people going in and out at all hours of the night. That's just part of the lifestyle.

[00:26:47] [SPEAKER_03] Right. And also, I think what's interesting here and I think what folks should keep in mind with this case and with just cases in general is discovery issues can derail a case. So if you're sort of sitting there thinking maybe the prosecution is hiding it. I'm just going to say, I don't I don't know what's going on here, what the issue is with, you know, the sort of both sides saying something different.

[00:27:15] [SPEAKER_03] But that would be a very stupid strategic move if anybody was hiding something in the discovery process because cases get thrown out for that. Yeah, you can't if you're the prosecutor, you can't just say, well, this looks bad for us. Let's hide it. That's just not that's not a good idea. If you get caught doing that.

[00:27:38] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, if you care, if you care about a case, you're not going to do something like that because that's a good way to jeopardize the entire case by hiding evidence.

[00:27:46] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah, that's you. You get cases thrown out. It's like a very serious, serious charge to be saying they're hiding stuff.

[00:28:00] [SPEAKER_01] And in fairness, you know, in some cases, sometimes things don't get turned over by that. That's often because of a mistake or an oversight. So. That was what the hearing on Friday was dominated by.

[00:28:15] [SPEAKER_03] So, yeah, what's what's the upshot of all this is what's happening.

[00:28:20] [SPEAKER_01] And basically, the prosecution said we don't have anything. We'll check our labs and stuff again. But there's really nothing else there.

[00:28:30] [SPEAKER_03] Does it strike you as stalling tactics by the defense?

[00:28:37] [SPEAKER_01] I'm not I'm not going to say that is important for the defense to protect the rights of their clients vigorously.

[00:28:43] [SPEAKER_03] Mm hmm.

[00:28:44] [SPEAKER_01] So I'm not going to sit here and say they're stalling. I think if you're a defense attorney and you want to do your job thoroughly, you're going to explore all relevant avenues.

[00:28:56] [SPEAKER_03] What about the whole situation with his alibi?

[00:28:58] [SPEAKER_01] Well, his alibi basically is that he spent the night and early morning of the murders driving around by himself, perhaps drinking. That's an interesting alibi to have. Unfortunately, if you're driving by yourself drinking, that means that you don't exactly have people to back up where you are.

[00:29:21] [SPEAKER_03] I would think an alibi would be person A saw me at this place that was not the house on King Road.

[00:29:29] [SPEAKER_01] I'm sure that's the sort of alibi any defendant would love to have. Yeah. Unfortunately, well, another point about this alibi is also be a hard alibi to disprove.

[00:29:41] [SPEAKER_03] And it seems like the Lataw County Prosecutor's Office, a lot of their hearings and their motions recently were connected to you need to give us your alibi. We need to be able to look at your alibi. And then you can't have it both ways. You can't have a speedy trial but be delaying giving us things.

[00:30:01] [SPEAKER_03] So Judge John Judge essentially put some sort of deadline in place for Koberger to hand over a list of witnesses for his alibi.

[00:30:12] [SPEAKER_01] Another interesting thing is actually, as we alluded to, this trial was scheduled to occur this fall. And so the judge gave a deadline not only for alibis. He gave lots of deadlines for all the numerous things that have to happen in this case before there can be a trial. You know, he put in a trial. He put in a deadline. Oh, the discovery has to be done by this date. This has to be done by this date. This has to be done by this date.

[00:30:41] [SPEAKER_01] And anybody who looked at that timeline would have to realize that it is, at the very least, wildly ambitious. And it would be very, very difficult to get all of those things done in the short time that they would have to be done before the trial starts. And so I don't know if there was a cause and effect here.

[00:31:08] [SPEAKER_01] But shortly after the judge released that timeline, Brian Koberger waived his right to a speedy trial. So the trial is not going to happen this year. That was smart strategically because there's a lot of work that needs to be done before his attorneys will be fully prepared to mount a full, vigorous, and informed defense.

[00:31:31] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah, the Daily Beast ran a dismal headline. We may have to wait years for Brian Koberger's quadruple murder trial.

[00:31:38] [SPEAKER_01] Well, the interesting thing is that actually we might have to wait a lot longer than that for a trial. And actually there might not even be a trial at all because Koberger's defense team actually filed a motion asking that the indictment against him be dismissed. They said they were doing this because of prosecutorial misconduct.

[00:32:01] [SPEAKER_03] Whoa. So how serious is that?

[00:32:04] [SPEAKER_01] Well, the part of the problem is we can't really give a substantive answer to that question because the memo they prepared outlining just what that misconduct was, or rather I should say what that alleged misconduct was, has not been released to the public.

[00:32:26] [SPEAKER_01] And about all we know of that is, comes from a few lines in the state's response. And the state's response was basically, we need more time to respond to this.

[00:32:40] [SPEAKER_01] And they said the memo in support of this was approximately 109 pages, 49 pages of which was made up of the defendant's arguments and the balance was made up of various exhibits, which include affidavits and other materials.

[00:32:59] [SPEAKER_03] So basically they filed a very long document and we need some time to look through it and have a substantive response. Yes.

[00:33:07] [SPEAKER_01] Typically speaking, it's not unusual for motions like this to be filed. Often they're not granted.

[00:33:16] [SPEAKER_03] Why is that?

[00:33:17] [SPEAKER_01] Good defense attorneys will try every avenue open to them to try to win a case. So, of course, lots of defense attorneys will try this because in some cases, well, first of all, in some cases, there really is prosecutorial misconduct. That really does occur. And in some cases, there's other reasons why a case against a client should be dismissed. Maybe the case is really weak.

[00:33:43] [SPEAKER_03] That can only typically, though, what you're saying is it's like a defense attorney, for lack of a better word, shooting their shot at like, hey, throw it all out, judge. And if it's really weak or if there really is some prosecutorial misconduct where something's gone very wrong, then they actually have a shot of making that happen. But just the fact that they're doing this does not mean that the case against Koberger is weak or that the prosecutors did anything wrong.

[00:34:12] [SPEAKER_01] Yes, that is absolutely correct.

[00:34:14] [SPEAKER_03] Yes. We'd have to judge that once we see what the filings are and what the claims are.

[00:34:18] [SPEAKER_01] Yes. But the odds are the case will go forward. Before we leave the subject of Koberger's case, there was yet another filing in this case. You know, everybody who's been following this case has probably seen at least a little bit of it on television or if not literally on television via the Internet. You've seen little clips from the courtroom. That's because there have been cameras in the courtroom.

[00:34:46] [SPEAKER_01] Now, Koberger's attorneys are saying we got to get these cameras out of here.

[00:34:51] [SPEAKER_03] Oh, no. Media is not going to like that. And nor is the viewing public.

[00:34:56] [SPEAKER_01] And nor is the viewing public. And there's a couple of reasons that they cite. Basically, they say when Judge John Judge allowed these cameras in the courtroom, he issued some directives on rules that were supposed to be followed. And those rules in their mind have not been followed. For one thing, cameras were not supposed to focus exclusively on Koberger.

[00:35:21] [SPEAKER_01] But they argue that there has been a lot of cameras focusing exclusively on Koberger. And they say this has caused people to talk about body language analysis and other such things that are a distraction.

[00:35:39] [SPEAKER_03] Listen, I'm going to say this. I think that TikTok body language analysis and true crime stories should be shot directly into the sun. But I think people are going to do whatever with whatever. So I think I don't know. I mean, there's a high public interest in this case. I think people should be allowed to see the process play out here.

[00:35:59] [SPEAKER_01] And, you know, you were talking about a headline in The Daily Beast. They actually mentioned The Daily Beast in this filing.

[00:36:07] [SPEAKER_03] They called them out. They called out The Beast.

[00:36:09] [SPEAKER_01] Because they said one of these pictures of Koberger that was taken, they say, in violation of the judge's directive, they say was actually used in a Daily Beast article, which was headlined. Report says Koberger's creepiness with women goes back to high school. And they say those sorts of headlines in their mind are prejudicial.

[00:36:30] [SPEAKER_03] We're going to be talking about gag orders in some future episode. And we're going to get into how the defense actually has some interesting bedfellows in their campaign against the media in this case. And it's actually the prosecution in this case. They're kind of aligned. And the family members of Kaley Gonsalves and the media are sort of aligned in sort of a bit of a back and forth. So it's interesting to see that.

[00:36:55] [SPEAKER_03] Obviously, on the murder sheet, we support the media and consider ourselves members of the fourth estate, I would say. But at the same time, there can be problems with media coverage of true crime. And we're definitely interested in engaging with those issues, too.

[00:37:10] [SPEAKER_01] And at least one of us is an attorney and is sensitive to some of the challenges that attorneys face. And the other issue they raise goes to that. In this motion, they mention that often because the cameras are focused on Koberger, the cameras also end up getting focused on the defense table.

[00:37:31] [SPEAKER_01] And this raises the possibility that if defense counsel has any motions or notes or what have you on the table in front of them, that these could be photographed and be presented to people all over the world. So that this causes a distraction to the defense because they need to figure out.

[00:37:53] [SPEAKER_03] They're hiding their notes, basically.

[00:37:55] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah, they have to be always aware of hiding their notes.

[00:37:58] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah, that seems like a fair issue to raise. You know, I mean, that's not good. Feels like there's a way to maybe set up a pool system, perhaps, where, you know, the camera is static and there's angles on Koberger and other relevant people. And maybe it doesn't need to be, you know, in a position where it could even capture anybody's notes.

[00:38:17] [SPEAKER_01] Or you could argue that at this point, we've all seen what Koberger looks like. We don't need that information. Let's just focus on the judge and whoever is speaking.

[00:38:28] [SPEAKER_03] You're saying get the press out of there. You're throwing them out.

[00:38:32] [SPEAKER_01] I'm saying let's see. Shocked. I'm saying let's find a way if we can balance interest. What we're interested in is if witnesses are testifying or experts are testifying, we're interested in the arguments of the attorneys.

[00:38:44] [SPEAKER_03] But what will people on TikTok talk about if they can't say Brian Koberger squinting here means that he's definitely guilty and is a serial killer? That's, I mean, we're going to lose that. Jeez.

[00:38:55] [SPEAKER_01] So that's another reason to do it. I think that's enough for Koberger for now. Shall we move on?

[00:39:01] [SPEAKER_03] Yes. So now we're going to be going back to Indiana to talk about just a very, very sad situation that happened relatively recently in Indianapolis, which is where we're based out of. We've actually gone to the Marion County Community Justice Campus. Sometimes Kevin and I, between the two of us, jokingly refer to it as the Palace of Justice.

[00:39:27] [SPEAKER_03] It's a very large, new, fangled building with a lot of courtrooms in it. And it's very fancy looking and it's, you know, just very, you know, it's just a it's an interesting place. And we we've covered cases that have happened there. But unfortunately, something very bad happened there recently. This was the murder of Marion County Sheriff's Office Deputy John Durham. He had been a deputy for 38 years.

[00:39:57] [SPEAKER_03] So we'll get to him in a moment. But let's let's go to another man, 34 year old Orlando Mitchell. So he was an inmate at the adult detention center at the Marion County Justice Campus. What was he held for? Well, it was murder, invasion of privacy, unlawful possession of a firearm by a domestic batterer and criminal recklessness. He was accused of killing the mother of his child, a woman named Crystal Walton. She had been shot. Witnesses saw this.

[00:40:27] [SPEAKER_03] And as he was arrested, he apparently yelled to law enforcement officers, I shot that B, B word. And then later stated, I shot that B word in the face. So he had a medical appointment on July 10th of this year. He was handcuffed. He was shackled. He had a belly chain on. And Deputy Durham led him through the secured doors of the justice campus to basically put him in this

[00:40:57] [SPEAKER_03] prisoner transport van that he had. And where they're parked is called a sally port. It's like the secure entrance to the jail part. So they go to Ashkenazi Hospital in Indianapolis. Things go wrong when they pull back in at 1113 a.m. That time they pull in to the sally port. Once again, Deputy Durham gets out, unlocks, unlocks the back right door of the van and opens it.

[00:41:24] [SPEAKER_03] Kevin, why don't you read from the probable cause affidavit about what happened next? And it would appear that this was all caught on surveillance.

[00:41:33] [SPEAKER_01] Deputy Durham grabs a black milk crate and moves it onto the metal step so he can open the inner door of the transport van. Inmate Mitchell steps out of the secure compartment onto the ground and is completely outside of the transport van as Deputy Durham grabs the milk crate to place it on the ground. As Deputy Durham begins to turn, inmate Mitchell attacks Deputy Durham. Inmate Mitchell raised both of his hands, which were still secured in handcuffs.

[00:42:02] [SPEAKER_01] The handcuffs were connected to his belly chain. However, the belly chain was no longer around inmate Mitchell's waist. Inmate Mitchell forced the chain over Deputy Durham's head and around his neck. A struggle ensues between Deputy Durham and Mitchell. During the struggle, both fall to the ground with Deputy Durham trying to get the chain off his neck. Deputy Durham attempts to free himself from the chain around his neck and this causes inmate Mitchell to twist around to the front of Deputy Durham.

[00:42:33] [SPEAKER_01] Inmate Mitchell continues to strangle Deputy Durham around the neck with the chain. Inmate Mitchell stays on top of Deputy Durham after Deputy Durham stops moving and becomes unresponsive. At 11.17 a.m., inmate Mitchell then gets off Deputy Durham, unwraps the chain from around Deputy Durham's neck, and locates a handcuffed key on the ground. Inmate Mitchell uses the key to remove the handcuffs around his wrists.

[00:43:00] [SPEAKER_01] Inmate Mitchell then enters the driver's side of Deputy Durham's transport van, backs the van out of the parking spot, and exits the sally port.

[00:43:09] [SPEAKER_03] At that point, one Sergeant Michael Davidson of the Cumberland Police Department who was there, he saw someone wearing an orange jumpsuit driving the prison transport van and realized nobody wearing an orange jumpsuit should be driving that because that's what inmates at the ADC wear. So he runs back and finds Deputy Durham.

[00:43:31] [SPEAKER_03] Deputy Durham is rushed to Ashkenazi Hospital where he had just been with Mitchell and is unfortunately pronounced dead at 12.19 p.m. So at this point, deputies are giving chase to Mitchell after the alarm is raised. The van ends up going down the 300 block of East Prospect and then crashes right into a utility pole. Mitchell gets grabbed and handcuffed and brought back.

[00:43:59] [SPEAKER_03] So he basically bought himself like a few minutes of freedom by strangling a man. So yeah, it's just it's like a very horrible situation. And the reason I thought it was interesting is because it does indicate some of the dangers of transporting prisoners. And you might be thinking, why are law enforcement officers potentially doing that by themselves? That seems to actually be a common practice.

[00:44:24] [SPEAKER_03] And unfortunately, as per Marion County Sheriff's Office own policies, Deputy Durham should not have been tasked with this by himself. That was a report from Fox 59 that kind of got their hands on some documents that indicated that the internal policies contradicted with what actually happened here. Of course, we all anyone who's worked for a large institution probably knows that sometimes internal mandates and the needs of maybe understaffing or how to get things done sometimes contradict themselves.

[00:44:54] [SPEAKER_03] But in this case, it unfortunately cost somebody his life, you know, and put him in a very dangerous situation with this inmate. So, yeah, this this just got me thinking. I know one thing in the recent hearing in the Delphi murders case in the case against Richard Allen, where Carroll County Sheriff Tony Leggett was talking about the shortage of manpower up there and how he sometimes does prison transports alone.

[00:45:20] [SPEAKER_03] I think that was shocking to a lot of people because it's like, you know, the person in charge of the department is even having to do this and is, you know, what what are the safety issues with that? So this just kind of reminded me that, like, even transporting a prisoner to a hospital visit could be potentially a very risky situation if you don't have enough people to do it.

[00:45:43] [SPEAKER_03] You don't have at least one other person backing somebody up, then you could get a situation where people could get hurt.

[00:45:51] [SPEAKER_01] And I think you did some research and found numerous examples of law enforcement personnel who lost their lives while transporting prisoners.

[00:45:59] [SPEAKER_03] I did. I wanted to kind of see how common this situation can be. So I looked at the Officer Down Memorial page site, which is actually very helpful for looking up historic crimes. It's a website that documents various law enforcement deaths. And I was looking at specific search terms like Sally Port, transport van, prison van, prison vehicle, etc. So this is by no means a comprehensive review.

[00:46:29] [SPEAKER_03] Most of the deaths I found actually were automobile accidents. So not homicides, just an accident happening. So I didn't count any of those anything that was just a horrible tragedy or mistake. But let's go back and forth and kind of just throw out some of the ones that I did find. So the first one was actually from August 13th, 1919 in Indiana. This is happened in Vanderburg County.

[00:46:54] [SPEAKER_03] Special Deputy William H. Engel, he was transporting prisoners to the Indiana Reformatory in New Albany. And basically there was a complicated situation where a friend of one of the murder suspects passed off a pistol. And as they were all getting off the train, that guy shot Engel. And he that was his first day at work, but he did die.

[00:47:15] [SPEAKER_01] And then there was a case back in 1934 of Deputy Sheriff Dave Hamm down in Jackson County, Florida. He and three other sheriffs were transporting three convicts to jail. One of them somehow got his hands on a gun and shot Hamm. Now Hamm returned fire, but he accidentally hit a different prisoner altogether. Together, the sheriff was able to step in eventually and stop it all.

[00:47:40] [SPEAKER_03] So in Nashville, Tennessee, on July 8th, 1944, Sergeant Kenneth Lewis Jacobs of the United States Army Military Police Corps. He and another officer are taking in a soldier for being drunk. And Jacobs is sitting in the front passenger seat of a car that they're transporting him in. He actually the soldier has a knife and ends up stabbing Jacobs in the neck fatally.

[00:48:03] [SPEAKER_01] There was a case of correctional officer Jesus or Jesse Sanchez. This is an incident that happened back in 1972 in California. Sanchez and another officer left Chino's California Institution for Men. Two cars forced their van they were driving off of the road, at which point they handcuffed both officers and shot them both. Sanchez passed away from his injuries.

[00:48:33] [SPEAKER_03] I have two cases out of Puerto Rico a number of years apart. The first was in 1975. Correctional officer Irving Gonzalez of the Puerto Rico Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation. He's transporting a prisoner from the Rio Piedras State Prison to the Bayamon District Courthouse. A trial is going to happen.

[00:48:54] [SPEAKER_03] But this guy pulls out a shank, stabs the officer in the eye and basically forces the prison trustee, who of course is a prisoner who's like entrusted with helping out, makes him get out of the car and drives off with the wounded officer who's later found shot to death. And actually, the guy who was involved in that, Juan Ramon Lopez Perez, remains at large. He was never caught. He was caught, but then he escaped. So a whole complicated thing.

[00:49:23] [SPEAKER_03] And then the next one involving Puerto Rico happened in 1992. Transportation officer Elias Montalvo Rodriguez and juvenile detention officer Jose Lopez Reyes. He's with the Department of Corrections in Puerto Rico as well. So they're both shot while they're transporting a group of juveniles to the Hamakau Juvenile Detention Center. Basically, like vehicles blocked in their vehicle and opened fire.

[00:49:49] [SPEAKER_01] Back in 2005, in Rhone County, Tennessee, Correctional Officer Wayne Thomas Cotton Morgan was loading some prisoners into a van. One of the prisoners' wives actually drove up and shot the officer in the stomach with a gun, killing him.

[00:50:11] [SPEAKER_03] So in 2012 in Mobile, Alabama, a police officer named Stephen Dion Green Sr., he is at the county jail and at the Sally Port, actually. And a prisoner slips his hand out of a handcuff, grabs a knife he had hidden in his cell phone armband and stabbed Officer Green in the neck.

[00:50:37] [SPEAKER_03] He, much like in the Durham case, steals a car and a service weapon. There's a shootout in which this suspect is actually fatally shot.

[00:50:46] [SPEAKER_01] In 2017, in Pottawatomie County in Iowa, Deputy Sheriff Mark Jason Burbridge was transporting a prisoner back to jail after a court appearance. The inmate somehow was able to conceal the key to his shackles. He got it out. He removed his shackles. He managed to get his hands on a firearm that was in the van and he shot both deputies. Burbridge died of his wounds.

[00:51:13] [SPEAKER_03] And this one is a double homicide out of Georgia in 2017. So Sergeant Christopher James Monica and Sergeant Curtis Ballou are transporting 33 prisoners between Hancock State Prison and the Georgia Diagnostic and Classification Prison. So two of the prisons actually attack them, manage to get a gun from one of them and then shoot them both.

[00:51:37] [SPEAKER_01] In 2018, in Wyandotte County, Kansas, Deputy Sheriff Patrick Rohher and Deputy Sheriff Teresa King were transporting a prisoner from a van to an exterior sally port. An inmate succeeded in disarming one of the deputies, shot them both. Both of them died of their wounds. One of the deputies managed to shoot back and wound the suspect.

[00:52:05] [SPEAKER_03] So obviously some very tragic cases there, but it does seem that there are instances where safety protocols break down or something very unexpected happens. There's an ambush. There's a hidden weapon. And prison transports or the transport of prisoners can become pretty dangerous pretty quickly in those situations.

[00:52:29] [SPEAKER_03] So just in the context of some of the discussion about prison transports and jail transports and all that, I just think it's good to have some of that historic context when we're talking about that, especially since something so awful just recently happened here in Indianapolis. Thank you all so much for listening to this week's cheat sheet. We hope you enjoyed it and found it helpful.

[00:52:50] [SPEAKER_03] We want to note that this episode contained references to reporting done by the Associated Press, Fox 5, the Idaho Statesman, KAKETV, Newsweek, the Officer Down Memorial Page, the Sepulpa Daily Herald, the Tulsa World, and UPI. We'll also be linking to that coverage in our show notes.

[00:53:12] [SPEAKER_01] Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us at murdersheet at gmail dot com. If you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[00:53:33] [SPEAKER_03] If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com slash murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www.buymeacoffee.com slash murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.

[00:53:57] [SPEAKER_01] Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet, and who you can find on the web at kevintg.com.

[00:54:06] [SPEAKER_03] If you're looking to talk with other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.

[00:54:28] [SPEAKER_01] Can we talk a little bit before we go about Quince, a great new sponsor for us? I think in one of the ads that we've already done for them, we talked about the compliments I'm getting on my jacket.

[00:54:57] [SPEAKER_01] I know you're a very modest woman, but can we talk about the compliments you're getting on the Quince products you wear?

[00:55:03] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah, I've got two of their Mongolian cashmere sweaters. They're a brand that just does this sort of luxurious products, but without the crazy costs really well. They give you Italian leather handbags. They do like European linen sheets. You have a really cool suede jacket, and I really like the way I look in my sweaters. I like the way you look in your bomber jacket. It looks super cool.

[00:55:28] [SPEAKER_02] You've gotten a lot of compliments when you go out wearing these sweaters.

[00:55:31] [SPEAKER_03] I think I have, yeah.

[00:55:33] [SPEAKER_02] And deservedly so.

[00:55:34] [SPEAKER_03] Also, I'm one of those people, my skin is very sensitive. I'm kind of sensitive. So when it comes to wearing sweaters, sometimes something's too scratchy. It really bothers me. These are so soft. They're just very delicate and soft. Wearing them is lovely because they're super comfortable. You're not, it's not one of those things where you're like, you buy it and it looks great, but it doesn't feel that great. They look great. They feel great. But yeah, I really love them. And you got, you know, your cool jacket.

[00:56:02] [SPEAKER_03] I mean, that's a little bit of a, you're the guy who like wears the same thing all the time. So this was a bit of a gamble for you, a bit of a risk. You got something a bit different.

[00:56:09] [SPEAKER_02] I do wash my clothes.

[00:56:11] [SPEAKER_03] I know you wash your clothes, but I mean, you're filthy.

[00:56:15] [SPEAKER_01] You just made me sound awful. So no, I wash my clothes.

[00:56:18] [SPEAKER_03] But you don't really, you don't really experiment with fashion that much is what I'm saying. So this is a little bit out of the norm for you, but I think you really like it and it looks good.

[00:56:26] [SPEAKER_01] Thank you. Great products, incredible prices. Absolutely. Quince.com.

[00:56:32] [SPEAKER_03] There you go. So you can go to quince.com slash msheet. And right now they're offering 365 day returns plus free shipping on your order. So that's quince.com slash msheet. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash M-S-H-E-E-T.

[00:56:49] [SPEAKER_01] Before we wrap up this episode, can we take just a moment to say a few more words about our great new sponsor, Acorns?

[00:56:57] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah, thanks so much to Acorns. Remember, when you support our sponsors, you're supporting us. And our sponsors make it possible for us to do this job. So we really appreciate them.

[00:57:05] [SPEAKER_00] We love our sponsors.

[00:57:06] [SPEAKER_03] Absolutely. Acorns is a terrific investing app. It's the perfect thing for somebody who wants to get started with their personal finance journey. That can seem daunting. It is daunting. I'm so not financially minded. For me, it's always really hard to get started with something like this where you're like, what am I doing? But Acorns sort of takes the guesswork out of that. It gets you started and it will essentially help you take control of your financial future. You can get set up pretty quickly.

[00:57:36] [SPEAKER_03] And it allows you to start automatically saving and investing. That money can help you, your kids, if you have a family, your retirement. And you don't need to be rich. You don't need to be an expert to do this. It's very simple. And you can start with only $5 or whatever change you have. It's not like you need to put in some massive payment. So it's a great fit for people who are starting out, but they want to take the next step and improve themselves financially and make their money work for them more.

[00:58:05] [SPEAKER_03] So if you're interested, head to acorns.com slash msheet or download the Acorns app to start saving and investing for your future today. Paid non-client endorsement. Compensation provides incentive to positively promote Acorns. Tier 1 compensation provided. Investing involved risk. Acorns Advisors LLC and SEC registered investment advisor. View important disclosures at acorns.com slash msheet.

[00:58:25] [SPEAKER_01] Before we go, we just wanted to say another few words about VIA. This is really a wonderful product. I think it's really helped both of us get a lot better rest.

[00:58:34] [SPEAKER_03] VIA is pretty much, I guess you'd say, the only lifestyle hemp brand out there. So what does that mean? It means that they're all about crafting different products to elicit different moods. Kevin and I really like their non-THC CBD products. Specifically, Zen really helps me fall asleep. Some Zen can really just kind of help me get more into that state where I can relax and fall asleep pretty easily. And they've been such a wonderful support to us. They're a longtime sponsor.

[00:59:01] [SPEAKER_03] We really love working with them, and they really make this show possible. I'm going to say this. You may not realize this, but when you support our sponsors, you're supporting us. And it kind of makes it possible for us to do this show. So if you or one of your loved ones is interested in trying some of this stuff, you're going to get a great deal. It's very high quality, high value.

[00:59:21] [SPEAKER_02] Anya, if I wanted to give this discount you speak of, what do I do?

[00:59:24] [SPEAKER_03] Okay, if you're 21 and older, head to Viahemp.com and use the code MSHEET to receive 15% off. And if you're new to Viah, get a free gift of your choice. That's V-I-I-A, hemp.com, and use code MSHEET at checkout.

[00:59:39] [SPEAKER_00] Spell the code.

[00:59:40] [SPEAKER_03] M-S-H-E-E-T. And after you purchase, they're going to ask you, hey, where did you hear about us? Say the murder sheet because then it lets them know that our ads are effective and it really helps us out.