The Cheat Sheets: Pictures and Pastures

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[00:01:53] So today's cheat sheet will include cases from actually a number of cases spanning different states, but these include Oklahoma, Kansas, our own home state of Indiana, Nevada, and Pennsylvania. My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist. And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney. And this is the murder sheet.

[00:02:20] We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases. We're the murder sheet. And this is the cheat sheet. Pictures and pastures.

[00:03:19] So today's episode was completely compiled by me. Um, we're kind of dividing up our cheat sheet duties, I feel, recently just because we are putting a lot of time into running the podcast while also writing a book. Yeah, so the best case scenario is each of us would pick and prepare two cases per cheat sheet episode. But because of book writing duties, we are temporarily taking a break from that.

[00:03:47] I think last week I did all four cases. This week you're stepping up to the plate. This is an all Anya Kane prepared episode. Yes. This is... Thank you for stepping up to that plate. I'm happy to do it. Gotta do it. And, uh, you know, normally we're both running two legs of the real eye, but now we're both just running an entire race by ourselves. So we're, we're living life and... Also doing lots of interviews for the book and interviews for the podcast, which you will be hearing soon. Yeah. Our book is about the Delphi murders case.

[00:04:16] And of course that's Shadow of the Bridge. It's coming out in August. We'll include, we're including pre-order links in all of our show notes now. So please pre-order. Pre-orders are super important. Apparently. We've never done a book before, so I don't know all the ins and outs, but we have been told this. And, uh, so I, I'm conveying this to you guys. I think it's going to be a really interesting and hopefully helpful book about the Delphi murders case. So check it out. So for my first case that, okay, well, here's the thing about the cases I picked.

[00:04:46] I didn't actually pick them. They were actually recommended to us by listeners. So each four of these was, was a listener recommendation. Thanks in advance to all of you who, um, reached out about these cases. You saved on you some work. Saved me some work. Saved me some thinking and saved me some brain cells. For that, I'm very grateful. And I think these, I think you all picked some interesting ones and, you know, just keep them coming. So, um, my source for this first one, it's an Indiana case, uh, was Wish TV.

[00:05:16] This is some recent coverage from them as well as I, you know, I got a lot of newspapers.com. It gave me a husband. It's given me some interesting information. And, um, you know, this is reporting from the journal and courier, the associated press, the Tipton County Tribune, the Herald times and the call leader. And that was all accessed through newspapers.com. Just getting some of that context. It's, it's a one, I mean, it's, it's a subscription worth its weight in gold just from allowing me to meet my, the love of my life. But also it's really helpful when you're trying to like dig into some of these cases.

[00:05:46] So just a recommendation. This is a disappearance, unsolved disappearance of 18 year old Marina Bolter. Um, to give you a description of her just because she is missing. Uh, she, um, it was five foot three, uh, white woman, 120 pounds with strawberry blonde hair and blue eyes. And, um, she vanished in 2014 actually on New Year's Eve. So December 31st, 2014. So some background on Marina.

[00:06:14] She, uh, lived in Ohio for some time with her father. Um, and remember she's only 18. Then she moved to Bloomfield, uh, which is the seat of Green County. It's a county in Southwestern Indiana. It's not that far from Bloomington where, um, Indiana University Kippen's alma mater is. And, um, so Marina went there to live with her mother who lived around there. Uh, she was a mother herself. She had a nine month old son. He did not live with her at the time.

[00:06:41] Um, in press interviews, her family alluded to some struggles that Marina had, but they noted that she was really working hard to get her life back on track. And part of that meant working at the grocery deli at the IGA grocery store on U.S. 231 South. Um, which is, uh, South of Bloomfield. She'd been working there for about six months. So cut to around 6 p.m. on New Year's Eve, 2014.

[00:07:08] Um, Marina is last seen walking across a gravel parking lot, uh, at the gas station outside of IGA. I wish I could automate all my New Year's resolutions so I wouldn't have to muster the willpower to go on a walk for exercise. Or if I could automatically kick myself off my phone and launch a Margaret Millar book into my hands instead, that would be awesome. Somewhat scary, but super helpful. But you can automate some things like financial goals.

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[00:08:28] Basically, Acorns does the hard part so you can just give your money a chance to grow. At the end of the day, we run a small business so we know firsthand how hard it can be to figure out money stuff. Plus, we're not very financially minded. I'm a history major. Kevin is an English major. We're not savvy with finances. An app like Acorns is a game changer because it allows you to automate so much of this without having to actively think about it all the time.

[00:08:52] Head to acorns.com slash msheet or download the Acorns app to start saving and investing for your future today. Paid non-client endorsement. Compensation provides incentive to positively promote Acorns. Tier 1 compensation provided. Investing involves risk. Acorns Advisors LLC and SEC Registered Investment Advisor. View important disclosures at acorns.com slash msheet. And the witness who saw her was 22-year-old DJ Lockhart. That's a former boyfriend of Marina's.

[00:09:22] And he claims he offered her a ride, but she declined and she instead got into a car with a middle-aged man that he did not recognize and they drove off. She's never seen again. As of January 10th, 2015, Sergeant Kurt Durnall of the Indiana State Police said his agency had not been called in to assist. That did seemingly change later, though. The family went public in the press, in the few press articles that were out there, noting

[00:09:50] that they did not believe Lockhart's story. And they proceeded to search for her themselves. They created a Facebook group called Find Marina Bolter. It was a GoFundMe. The Indiana State Police did discourage the unofficial search because they felt that anything possibly discovered in that could cause chain of custody issues if there was any evidence found. So what does that mean? Well, no, that's what I'm going to ask you. I'm throwing it to you, Kevin. You're the lawyer here. So what is a chain of custody?

[00:10:19] Why would that be a concern for police, volunteers going out and searching for someone who may be the victim of a crime and they're not involved in the search? What's the issue with chain of custody there? Let's come up with an example that is not so horrible. Let's say some people suspect that you have been stealing cereal. What?

[00:10:46] And maybe the people who suspect this are YouTubers who don't like you. And maybe they formed a Facebook group saying Anya is a cereal thief. And let's say they've figured out a way that they can somehow gain access to the shed in your backyard. And they're going to search it. Now, would any court put much legitimacy in that search?

[00:11:13] Because for one reason, these people may have cause to have a grudge against you. They've indicated they don't like you. They don't trust you. If they find anything, isn't it possible that maybe it's not entirely accurate or on the up and up? Or is it also just possible that maybe they are good people with integrity and they wouldn't fake evidence against you, but maybe they've mishandled something.

[00:11:39] Maybe they've done something to the evidence that shouldn't be done with the evidence. Or like a defense attorney could have a field day because it's like, well, your fingerprints are all over the cereal box. Maybe you stole it and planted it there. Even if that's unlikely, it could cause problems for a jury. Yeah, the fingerprints of the searcher could be on there. So there's all sorts of issues. This is why it makes sense when you're doing a search of this nature to have professionals handling it

[00:12:09] because they have to follow very strict rules of evidence to protect the integrity of the evidence. Does that make sense at all? Am I just babbling? You're not babbling. You're very well spoken. And I think this is something where I really understand both sides of it because when you're a family member and your baby is missing, you know, this 18-year-old young woman is gone, I think most people would have the instinct, understandably, and in some cases perhaps correctly,

[00:12:36] to turn over every stone, go out on every road, just look, look, look. Find her. That's where you want to be putting your energy. From the perspective of police, I think in a disappearance like this, it's not as if Marina was like in a park or in a specific area or on a hiking trail and we know where she was and then she went missing, so let's look in this area. We have a starting point of where she could be.

[00:13:03] The story is she gets in a car and then she's gone. She could be anywhere. Very difficult to search for someone in that. There's no real starting point except for perhaps the gas station. And I think that is where perhaps they didn't put a search together themselves because it's like where are we even going to look? It's a waste of resources. And it's like from the family's perspective, it's, you know, we're going to do it anyway. So I really understand both sides of that.

[00:13:31] There's the emotional side of the family and then there's the more practical side of law enforcement. But anyways, so this, I guess this new year marks 10 years because this was, you know, 2014 into 2015. Now we're 2024 into 2025. That's wild that 2014 was 10 years ago. Jeez. Actually, 2014 is now 11 years ago. 11. Wow.

[00:13:58] It's just, you know, it's wild. But in terms of, but this, you know, this is kind of, we just passed the anniversary. Marina never showed up for her shift the next day. She's never been seen since there's not been any sightings. And I'm aware from the press coverage at least. And things got a little weirder from there. What happened? So the Journal and Courier reported on February 15th, 2015. So not too long after her disappearance. Six weeks. Yeah.

[00:14:29] Lockhart was found dead. And Lockhart again is the boyfriend. Ex-boyfriend. Ex-boyfriend said he saw her that night, tried to give her a ride. She refused. Yes. Sergeant Durnall said to the paper that he had been found dead of a stab wound to the heart. Is there any indication of whether this was self-inflicted or a homicide? I could not find that in the newspaper accounts from what I saw. But certainly a disturbing twist to this whole,

[00:14:58] obviously very sad thing. I'm just now finding out about this case for the first time. But it occurs to me you could, there could be a situation where it's self-inflicted and does it out of remorse. Or it could be a situation where someone believes falsely that he is responsible for a crime in which he is innocent and they murder him. Or, I mean, it really could be anything. It could be someone totally unrelated. Or something completely unrelated. Or if there was some kind of thing that he was involved in

[00:15:28] and it caused harm to befall her and then the people caught up with him. I mean, like, it's almost impossible to speculate because there's almost so many ways that could go. But if you happen to have any information or tips for related to this case, if you knew these folks, if you know someone who may have said something that kind of seems more suspicious now that you've heard this story, you can go to Crime Stoppers of Central Indiana. That's 317-262-8477.

[00:15:58] Or you can call State Police Detective Kent Roefling at 812-332-4411. And I do apologize if I pronounced that man's name wrong. But yeah, this is a sad case. And I think these kind of cases, it's important not to forget about them. So let's talk about another case where this is not unsolved. It's ongoing. And it got a lot of,

[00:16:27] it also involved a disappearance, but the victims have been found. And it got a lot of, I think, national attention for a while. And it kind of touched upon some weird legal issues. Or I don't even know how to describe it. I would, I'm going to be very curious to get your take, Kevin. Um, but this is what, um, this was the disappearance and murder of 27-year-old Veronica Butler and 39-year-old Jillian Kelly.

[00:16:57] So these are two women who were, um, driving in the Oklahoma panhandle. Um, Butler was the mother of two children. And, um, Kelly was a pastor's wife who was sort of helping out with this situation. The children were six and eight. And, um, there was supposed to be a, an exchange.

[00:17:27] Um, so these two women are driving from Hugenton, Kansas, uh, going into Oklahoma. Uh, Kelly, the, Kelly, the pastor's wife was supposed to supervise this visit. It was just sort of, you know, you're kind of a custody battle situation. Um, and, and those can obviously get, you know, pretty contentious. But, um, the meetup was normally in a more, um, you know, I think a different place.

[00:17:55] But this time it was, uh, scheduled for a dirt road that intersected with State Highway 95. And it's in the middle of nowhere. It's, it's like, it's, it's remote. It's rural. Um, again, it's a dirt road. So, um, unfortunately this, this meeting was not in fact an, an exchange to sort of lead to a visitation with these children. It was a trap. Um, the, the people involved in this heinous crime,

[00:18:24] the people allegedly involved in it, I should say, are, uh, 54-year-old Tiffany, um, Adams, um, Tad Burt Cullum, which is her boyfriend. A couple named Cole and Cora Toomley. And then a fifth man, a fifth person named Paul Grice. And, um, this was a situation where Adams had custody of the children.

[00:18:51] Again, it's this whole custody battle situation. And, and hated Butler and wanted to kill her and wanted to eliminate whatever witness was going to be there to supervise. So, they waited for these women. And then they, um, brutally, um, uh, beat Butler with a hammer. Stabbed her to death. Stabbed Kelly to death. Um, the women were screaming, you know, uh, Butler was trying to fight back,

[00:19:21] but they were overpowered and killed. And then they were, their bodies were put in a freezer and buried in a sort of a pre-dug hole in a pasture. And what's really heartbreaking is that as they arrived there, Adams told Butler that there was this kind of, like, trailer nearby where Grice was hiding, ready to, um, kill them. And she told them that the kids were in the trailer with a baby calf that they wanted to show Butler. So, she kind of goes inside thinking she's going to see these kids and, and the baby calf.

[00:19:50] And instead it's a man armed with a stun gun and a hammer and a knife who's going to kill her. Um, and so, one kind of thing that kind of came up as this was investigated, the bodies were, they went missing in March. The bodies were found April 14th. And, um, it came out that the people involved in this were part of a group that was sort of, like, kind of a, kind of a combination between, like, a prayer group and, like, a political discussion group with about, like, 15 or so people

[00:20:19] called God's Misfits. And what came out that was somewhat interesting and got some discussion was that it seems to be linked to this sort of sovereign citizen movement. What's this sovereign citizens movement of which you speak? I'm, I'm not, I'm, I'm asking, I'm, I'm kind of throwing it to you. I guess I'll, I'll describe it and I'll be curious to get your take on this. So what sovereign citizens are is that they believe that, um,

[00:20:46] they're exempt from laws in the United States. They just, they think, I mean, this is not true. They think that they, um, they just don't have, the federal government and, I guess, government in general doesn't have domain over them. Um, and they, you know, they tend to be very much embedded in the sort of fringe conspiracy theorist movements. I think there are several different flavors of sovereign citizens and ideologies that kind of, like, lead to that.

[00:21:15] I don't, I don't think it's necessarily relegated to one side or another. I think this can kind of come from a few angles. But that is what, so I guess, Kevin, as a lawyer, if I decided to stand up in the middle of our local Walmart and declare myself a sovereign citizen, free from the, the shackles of our government overlords and then proceeded to load up the cart

[00:21:41] with, you know, 10 or so excellent, uh, boxes of cornflakes, my favorite, and walk out, is that gonna suit me well in a quarter of, like, am I gonna, is that all I have to do to just get away with it? No, you can't unilaterally secede from the country and form your own one-woman country where I guess your territory travels with you when you walk. Yeah, it does. Yeah. That's how it works, babe. Sorry. Yeah, it's, it's ludicrous.

[00:22:11] You're, you're still subject to the laws of this country. So what do you make of people thinking otherwise? I just don't understand this. I don't even understand the mentality. It's like, some people just need to be so contrarian and so, like, that it's, like, they just, like, they, they, like, I don't, it's just like a supernova of entitlement. I don't even know. It reminds me in a way of an old comic book story.

[00:22:40] Many things remind me of old comic book stories, ladies and gentlemen. This reminds me of an old comic book story by Don Rosa called, I believe, His Majesty Scrooge McDuck. What? Where is this? Okay, go ahead. In this story, which I'm butchering because I haven't read it for many years, Scrooge McDuck basically, through plot contortions, he declares himself some flavor of the sovereign citizen. He's now his own country. Scrooge McDuck was a sovereign citizen?

[00:23:10] Yes, I'm simplifying it. I'm simplifying it. But he basically declares himself his own. He doesn't need the government anymore. He's his own government. And that presents problems for him because then if someone comes, for instance, and steals things from his money bin, who is going to pursue them because if he's not part of this country, he doesn't get to enjoy the police or other services. And so I always think that people who declare themselves separate from the United States

[00:23:39] don't really realize, yes, as citizens of the United States, we have lots of burdens and responsibilities. We have to pay probably more taxes than we would like. We have to obey some laws maybe that we don't like. We also get a number of services. And they're very valuable. And I think it's a pretty good trade. And in the end, Scrooge McDuck does return to Duckburg. Is Duckburg in the United States? It's in the state of Calasota.

[00:24:09] But I think we're digressing. I'm sorry. Yeah, I just wanted to know. Anyways, that was a really good example. Thank you for bringing that up. And those comics are quite fun, actually. You introduced them to me. Or introduced me to them. What am I talking about? Anyways, let's get back to the case. Yeah, the sovereign citizen movement is incredibly stupid. And it's filled with stupid and entitled people. I know our friend Brett from the Prosecutors often has a hearty chuckle at the expense of the sovereign citizens online. I know he often runs into that.

[00:24:40] I'm looking. Anya did prepare notes for all these things. And her notes for this subject actually say, sovereign citizens movement dash stupid. I'm just sorry. So thanks for the context. Thanks for sending me out for success there. There's some political movements and ramifications where I'm like, I don't agree with that personally. But I can understand where they're coming from. And then this is just like, what if we make believe really hard? And inevitably, these people are doing crimes,

[00:25:08] often heinous crimes, or sometimes at least heinous crimes. And then there's always something like, oh, I'm standing up in court. And I'm like, no, your laws can't touch me. I'm a sovereign citizen. You're just going to somehow get out of there, teleport away, and everyone's going to be like, oh, the prosecutor's going to throw down his binder. Damn it. They got us this time. It's a sovereign citizen. I mean, what do these people think is going to happen? I don't know. Anyways, I guess they thought that they were going to be able

[00:25:38] to get away with this murder, also through just hiding the bodies, kind of doing all this. They left a lot of DNA. Bryce cut himself on the knife and actually managed to stun gun himself in the process. And they dumped some of the clothing they used in the murders in the grave, in this burial site with them in this pasture. And of course, you know, the victim's DNA is all over it. Their DNA is all over it.

[00:26:07] And there's like receipts from tractor supply and standard supply and Walmart showing who purchased this. And the ringleader appears to be Adams. I don't know if I explained this well enough. She's the grandmother to the children. Father is the mother. There's contention. Grice talks about Adams like cackling as they're attacking these women. It's like a very disturbing and upsetting scene. Now, what's going on now is kind of a pretrial stuff.

[00:26:37] So this is a situation where a number of them have made deals with the prosecution in exchange for sort of testimony. Can you talk about that? Like what sort of the kind of thought or I guess rules are with that? Because obviously a lot of these people did something really horrible when a prosecutor or when a prosecution team is looking at something like this.

[00:27:04] Why can it be important or necessary to make deals with some of the people who did something horrible in exchange for testimony in a case like this where it's kind of a conspiracy? Well, in a conspiracy, you often have in a conspiracy a person who actually did the deed. Let's say Anya has a Baker Street Irregulars type of situation where she has convinced neighborhood children to go and steal things from different grocery stores.

[00:27:34] So the neighborhood children are the ones who are actually stealing the cereal, but Anya is the one who's basically the ringleader, the one behind it, the one who is creating the acts and creating the need and planning it all, and she's the one making it happen. So what you would do in that situation is maybe you'd have one of the neighborhood children say, well, I'd be willing to testify that Anya was the one that supplied me with the plans

[00:28:01] and told me what to do if you charge me with a lesser crime. And so, in other words, you try to get the people in the outer rings, even some of them may have done some bad things, you get them to flip and turn over evidence against the people closer to the center. Does that make sense? It does. And that's not Baker Street Irregulars. That's like, I'm Fagan in that situation. Pardon me, you're Fagan. Jeez. Well, thanks a lot. It's very late and I'm tired.

[00:28:32] So, you know, this is all kind of ongoing. So, you know, Cora Toombley also has testified in exchange for a 30-year sentence. They're saying Adams came up with this idea. She convinced Grice that the children were being abused and kind of got him all riled up against Butler. Kelly was just the person there at the wrong time. And Grice says he now realizes he was lied to about Butler and that his anger at her was misplaced

[00:28:59] and that Adams was just trying to get him to kill her and that she essentially said she ran out of money to fight the custody battle and that's what precipitated all this horrible stuff. So it's obviously a very tragic and upsetting case. And, you know, just so you know, my sources for this were KWCH, KJRH, a great opinion piece from the Kansas Reflector and an in-depth article from the Oklahoman. We'll be including all those links in our show notes

[00:29:28] so you can read more, get more context. And some people, of course, obviously don't like it when prosecutors make deals like that. But especially when you have a conspiracy, most of the conspiring is sometimes something that's done in the shadows. And if you want to get the people who are really responsible for it, you have to make those sorts of deals and make those sorts of arrangements even if they can be somewhat distasteful. Yeah, I'm comfortable with focusing a lot of the energy on the person who basically started it,

[00:29:57] which in this case, the allegations and the evidence seems to be pointing at Adams being a main instigator. So, yeah, it doesn't bother me. I understand why some people are uncomfortable with it, though. The next case spans much like the other one where you had victims traveling from Kansas and getting ambushed and killed in Oklahoma. This one also spans a few states. Starts in Bethel Park in Pennsylvania, which is near Pittsburgh.

[00:30:26] So there's a residence there and a man coming and going from that residence. His name is John Matthew Chapman. He was 44 years old. And neighbors noted that for some time back in 2019 because they recognized that he was the boyfriend of the resident or at least the on-again, off-again boyfriend. But they saw no sign of a woman named Jamie Fettin. Jamie was 33 years old.

[00:30:54] But the thing is, you know, people in her life did note that her Facebook messenger was active. She was responding to things, seemingly, or at least her account was. But she just was nowhere to be found. So some information about Jamie Fettin. She had... Now, well, the press has reported it as Vader syndrome, which... Which is V-A-T-E-R. Vader syndrome.

[00:31:21] And my understanding is that this thing was originally called that, but now it's called the Vactral Association. And this is a group of birth defects. It's not really a syndrome. It's kind of a cluster of things. And it's... There's no really known specific chromosomal or genetic situation here. It's just multiple factors. And it can cause vertebrae, anal, cardiac, trachea, esophageal,

[00:31:50] renal slash kidney, and limb defects. It can be more common in children with diabetic mothers. But it's, again, I don't know if there's a lot of insight into what causes this. And my reading on this indicated that most people who have this have typical intellectual development as well. So, you know, not... I mean, there can be exceptions, but that's what I read at least. But anyway, this is something affecting multiple body symptoms.

[00:32:19] And Jamie kind of manifested itself as she appeared very... She was very small and some people thought she looked like a little kid or a little girl, not a grown woman. And actually, KDK did a really interesting interview with her because she was not... She was denied access to the Meadows Casino. She tried to get in, but she forgot her ID, and they believed that she was a child and would not let her in. And she felt that this was discriminatory because she was, in fact, an adult woman, a grown woman.

[00:32:49] So she talked to them about that and about dealing with, you know, bacterial association or what she called Vader syndrome. And so this is her. So she was indeed an adult woman. She was dating Chapman, who was from Oakland, Maryland. And I will note, though, that Chapman was married, that their relationship was on and off. So, you know, this goes on for a while. She's not really appearing. She's on Messenger, seemingly. November 14th, 2019 rolls around,

[00:33:19] and her friends call in a welfare check. The Bethel Park Police Department go inside, and they also interview neighbors, and the neighbors tell them they've not seen her for two months, but they have seen her boyfriend. Inside the residence, they find identification cards with Chapman's name and photograph, as well as the victim's phone, as well as zip ties and duct tape. The following day, police arrest Chapman, and he confesses to them. He says that in September of that year,

[00:33:47] he told Jamie that they were going to go on a vacation and maybe buy a house in Las Vegas, but that he, in fact, he was doing this because he wanted to kill her. And he was searching things like, what is the perfect place to dump bodies? Dump plus body plus Nevada. And how can I successfully dump a dead body without being caught? This is all in his search history. So they go to a, you know, he says that he and Jamie went to the desert in Lincoln County, Nevada.

[00:34:15] He claimed that they were going to do a bondage photo shoot, and he used that pretext to tie her to a signpost with plastic ties. He duct taped her mouth and nose and watched her asphyxiate and took pictures as she did. And he told police he killed her for the money and then proceeded to pose as her on Facebook for months and live in her house. So this happened a while ago, but there was actually just a jury trial in May 2024

[00:34:46] Chapman was found guilty of one count of kidnapping. And the one thing that was interesting, I thought, was that this was actually a federal jury. Do you want to, do you have any, like, insight into, like, you know, I mean, well, I mean, obviously, because there was the crossing of state lines. She was kidnapped in Pennsylvania and murdered in Nevada. Now, I have a question, Kevin. If Jamie went willingly with Chapman from Pennsylvania to Nevada,

[00:35:14] why is that still considered a kidnapping? Well, it sounds like he actually lured her there under false pretenses. And if you are tricking someone to go somewhere, I mean, that's essentially kidnapping. Okay. The FBI, the Lincoln County Sheriff's Office in Nevada, and the Bethel Park Police Department all investigated the case. And the prosecutors on this were assistant United States attorneys,

[00:35:41] Penelope Brady, Megan Ratchow, and Stephen Rose. So, this is obviously, you know, a pretty vicious and horrible crime. And just this August, Chapman was sentenced to life imprisonment. And he got, and this was, of course, on the one count of kidnapping resulting in death. And he got the maximum sentence from U.S. District Judge James C. Mahan. So, yeah, horrible case. Kind of an unconventional kidnapping in the way that it's not,

[00:36:11] you don't necessarily need to forcibly abduct somebody in order for it to be considered a kidnapping. Nor do you have to go very far. I mean, in this case, they did. They went quite far from Pennsylvania to Nevada. But, you know, there's cases where, like, if I force somebody to cross, you know, into from one part of the house to another, that's still kidnapping, right? Yeah. So, it's a legal thing. It's not necessarily always what you picture.

[00:36:39] But, yeah, if you do it by fraud or enticement or, yeah. Any of that could be kidnapping. We've talked, obviously, on this program, as you're all well aware, we've covered extensively the Delphi case. And in that case, the victims were kidnapped by Richard Allen who just made them go down a hill, a very short distance, and that counted as a kidnapping. Yeah, go down a hill and then across a creek. And, yeah, they're in the same general area. But, yeah, it's not really about distance.

[00:37:10] So, my sources for this were Trib Live, the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, WTRF, and CBS Pittsburgh and KDK, and the Associated Press. And then this next one takes us back to Kansas, actually. So, we're going back to Kansas. Sources for this were CJ Online, and I'm also including a link to a change.org petition that I want to ask you about.

[00:37:38] So, this is a case where it's kind of more, I picked this one because it's a little bit more of a Kevin case. You like the cases where there's, like, some kind of, no one intended to kill anybody. Like, it's more of, like, something happened and then what happens afterwards. Right. So, on October 8, 2022, there was a horrific car crash. Um, what happened was, um,

[00:38:07] a woman named, um, Amber Peary was driving on the Kansas Turnpike south of Topeka, and they were going to a Girl Scouts event. So, she was in the car with a bunch of, um, little girls. So, um, some of, like, there's a bunch of also Girl Scouts, I guess, parents driving in almost like a convoy a little bit. Like, they're all kind of driving one way. And they, they end up getting off the wrong ramp, and a number of them make an illegal U-turn

[00:38:37] through an opening in a concrete barrier to get back on track. Two others in, or at least two other drivers in this kind of group did. And when Peary did it, she, um, got hit, her car got hit by a semi-truck. Um, and nine-year-old Kyle Lunn, nine-year-old Layla L. Azra Anasari, and eight-year-old Brooklyn Peary, her daughter, all died. Um, two survivors were nine-year-old Gabriela Casas, and, um, her other daughter,

[00:39:07] five-year-old Carrington Peary. So, obviously, a very, very tragic outcome to this, um, to this decision. Now, people in the community seem to be split. There was a change.org petition. Um, quote, we asked for mercy on behalf of Amber Peary. Got 881 signatures. People said that, um, you know, she was, you know, at this point she had, you know, when this came up, she had already been convicted

[00:39:35] and incarcerated for three counts of involuntary manslaughter, two counts of aggravated battery. Um, you know, she, they say she has two surviving children taking their mother away for any period of time, doesn't bring anyone back, it doesn't, uh, you know, it's, it's horrible, basically. So, they, they, they're sort of, they were asking for mercy with the sentencing. But, in November 2020,

[00:40:03] on November 22nd of this year, um, prosecutor Lauren Emrine played a number of jailhouse calls from Peary, and she was complaining about unfairness of the whole thing. She said the jury was rigged. She, um, said that the Shawnee County Jail was a, was essentially a two-star hotel vacation and she, you know, almost get out. And, um, kind of like,

[00:40:32] I think left a pretty bad impression with a lot of people. Right. Why is saying stuff like that on the eve of sentencing, I guess, or, you know, uh, like, yeah. What, should we talk about this petition first? Well, well, I wanted to bring up the petition because I know you love a good petition. I love a good petition. You love one. So, okay, let's talk about the petition. What, what did you want to say about that?

[00:40:59] Uh, I, I feel I've talked often on the program, maybe not for a while, but I feel I have talked often. Uh, back when I was in law school, I got an opportunity to work with a judge for a while and that was, uh, an experience that was very formative for me and really, uh, changed how I viewed the law and how I look at law. And one of the many cases we, one of the many cases that went on

[00:41:29] during that time was a case involving animal abuse, which I may have talked about on the program. I think I may have all sorts of wrinkles to it. But at one point, a number of people in the community, uh, had written the judge's letters basically, throw the book at this animal abuser. And I, I think, if my memory is correct, a group of school children had been told by their teacher, it's a civic exercise, let's all write a letter

[00:41:59] to the judge telling them to throw the book at this animal abuser. And I remember the judge opening up to me this folder full of these letters, all of which he'd read. And he said, you know, none of this makes any difference to me. And when he first said that, it was like, shouldn't, shouldn't it make a difference to you? Shouldn't you really consider what the community thinks? But then as he talked and explained it,

[00:42:29] I realized the point he was making is, we put judges in, in this place because we trust their judgment. And we don't necessarily want a judge's opinion to be swayed by popular opinion. We don't want a judicial decision to be based on whoever is able to get most signatures on a petition. No. It should be based on the facts and the law. And you can express your opinion

[00:42:58] to a judge. There's no harm in that. But ultimately, we should trust the judges to form their decisions about sentencing or what have you based on the facts and on the law and not on whatever happens to be popular at the time. Does it shock you that Judge Jessica Heinen in this case basically dismissed the online petition at all asking for mercy? I think that's the appropriate thing to do. What the, do you think, I mean, I'm just curious, like is there, because I understand

[00:43:28] people wanting to like raise their voices and get involved. Is there a way, I also think online petitions are pretty useless in these situations. Like once we've gotten to the point where there's like a trial or a conviction, like it's kind of, you know, good luck basically. But I like the idea of people getting involved and raising their voices. Is there like a more useful thing to do in a situation like this where you're kind of like I feel like I need to speak or raise awareness about an issue? Like I'm more, like what,

[00:43:57] is there a way to like redirect that energy? Well here's the thing, the more valuable an effort is, the harder it is. It's very easy to sign an online petition or just push a button. So it doesn't really do much. If you really want to do something that makes a lasting difference, you have to get out there and do something more difficult. You know, if you feel the sentencing laws in this case are too extreme,

[00:44:26] former group, lobby your local representative and have meetings with him and try to get him or her to pass a law changing it. Or like volunteer with prisoners to try to make their lives better or something? Yes. Right. Yeah, most social media activism is just, it's well-intentioned. It's just, doesn't do much. So, you know, but I understand why, I understand why people would feel like, oh,

[00:44:56] I need to raise my voice but it, yeah, it's never, I mean, it shouldn't sway a judge. Like if we think, like if I made a petition to be like, let Anya steal all the cereal to use our stupid example, then like, you know, like I wouldn't, I mean, what, wouldn't it be a really bad thing if the judge was like, yes, yes, excellent, you know? Like wouldn't that make you, like, well, why does she get to do that? Like, you should be applying the law. If it's against the law to steal stuff, that should also apply to Anya Cain.

[00:45:26] You know, I mean, I'd love it if the judge would, you know, side with me but like, if I'm not being selfish then that would seem like a bad thing. Seem pretty bad. And you also asked me about some of the comments she made before she was sentenced. Let's like, imagine that I accidentally, let's say I have a shed in the backyard full of my favorite comic books and I accidentally burn it down and I want to convince you,

[00:45:56] Anya, to let me have the money to rebuild it and buy a bunch more comic books and if before I do that I make lots of comments to other people perhaps in other podcasts you know, complaining about you, complaining about the process or just saying that's not going to help my case when I come to you and say, Anya, I've learned my lesson. Let me spend the household money on more comic books. It's wild to me and you hear this from a lot of people in law enforcement and prosecutors just like what people will say in a jailhouse call.

[00:46:26] Like, you gotta There's literally a voice Yes. At the beginning of the call saying this call is being recorded and monitored and people just don't pay attention to it or it just becomes part of the background that they just tune out. But what you say gets heard and if you're saying bad things you want to create a good impression before your sentence and you want to be repentant. You want to say, I've learned my lesson. You don't want to be, Yeah. And you know, you know, like blaming

[00:46:55] Kansas Highway Patrol troopers blaming the semi-driver blaming the other drivers who did the same thing but got away with it almost and blaming the people who built her car. You know. It doesn't sound like a person who is accepting responsibility. And her, I mean, I know her ex-husband came out against her saying, talking about lack of remorse. She ended up getting 64 months and she's going to appeal that sentence. So it's five years essentially. I don't know about Kansas sentencing.

[00:47:25] Does 64 months mean 64 months? I don't know off the top of my head. My guess is no. You know, it is a very sad story ultimately. she did lose a daughter as well. I mean, and you know, I imagine that this was making a dangerous and illegal U-turn, you know, is bad but at the same time it's a situation where I'm sure the intent was not to kill all these kids including one of her own children. I mean, it's a horrible,

[00:47:55] horrible, horrible thing. But I can understand why the other families are angry especially in light of some of her comments. It just, it seems like an all-around tragedy and I don't know. It's just sad. I know she did express remorse at the sentencing. She apologized to the families and I apologized for her comments and you know, I don't, I don't know what's in her heart so I don't know if there is a lack of remorse there or if there is remorse and she just said

[00:48:25] something stupid and selfish in the moment. I just don't know. It's just, it's an awful case all around. But but anyways, now we've kind of, did you want to say anything else about that? No. Now we can kind of get to the end and again, we mentioned this up at the top but we are writing a book, Shadow of the Bridge. It is about the Delphi murders. We would appreciate it so much if you purchased that, pre-ordered it.

[00:48:54] I think you've said you're going to work up some sort of scheme. There's a scheme. There's a scheme afoot. That if people pre-order, they'll get like a signed nameplate or something? Or bookplate. Bookplate. Yeah, I'd like to, you know, I think that could be fun if you pre-order it. I'm going to work out a system where we can kind of get you a signed bookplate because then, you know, you can have our signatures in it. I don't know. I thought that was fun. But we, yeah, we're really excited about it. It's going to come out in August so if you pre-order it, it'll be a little bit before you get it but I think it'll be

[00:49:25] worth the wait and I think it'll be, you know, worth purchasing. It would mean a lot to us and we'd really appreciate it and we're pouring a lot of ourselves into this book so we're hoping to do this case justice in it and if you can pre-order it, just thank you so much. And now let's have a different kind of ad. Oh, and the pre-order links will be in our show notes. I think it's on bookshop.org, it's on Amazon, it's on through Simon & Schuster websites.

[00:49:55] There's a couple of different places you can get it at this point. Anyways, now let's talk about another product that we're selling. What product is this, Anya? It's the product of shirts. Beautiful shirts for your body. This is your week so this is your ad. Is it my week? I guess it is. You said that this is your episode. Yeah. So you're going to do the ad. Beautiful shirts for your body and soul and you can flaunt them and they say Murder Sheet people on them and you look like you're about to interrupt me and you don't need to. Okay,

[00:50:24] I'm going to say my piece. Say your piece. They're at murdersheetshop.com and it's a website where you can buy different sizes. You can order them. They will come promptly. They will come in a package and you will open it and you will behold the shirt and beautiful colors and I'm sure your friends and family will have many questions and you can answer those

[00:50:53] and spread the word about Murder Sheet. So you're doing us a favor too by buying the shirt and also advertising for us. so everyone will be happy and I think you'll be happy too. So you're saying if people buy the shirt their family will have questions. That's your pitch. Maybe some concerns. We've been doing this for months. Why can't you do it without

[00:51:23] raising all these other issues? I mean once you said the shirts would come alive and... I just said I can't guarantee that won't happen. Not gonna guarantee that. Not gonna put that in writing. So the shirts won't come alive? I don't know what's going on anymore. The shirts are not gonna come alive. I'm sure your family won't have questions or concerns. Well it could be good questions. Conversation starters. You know get everyone talking at dinner. Well I'm gonna go the opposite direction.

[00:51:52] I think your family would have questions or concerns if you showed up at the family dinner table shirtless. People would say what's going on? What's wrong? And one way to make sure that never happens is if you have a ready supply of t-shirts. See your ad's weirder. Your ad's actually weirder. And you're criticizing me. You're sitting across from me with your pen looking at me and acting like your ad. That's the weirdest ad you've done. No I'm trying to spin it because you said if you order

[00:52:22] the shirts your family would be concerned and have questions. And I'm saying no they'll have concerns and questions if you don't order a shirt. Is it like murder sheep people? What's that? And you'll be like they're the intellectuals of true crime. So they're very smugly obviously while you're kind of looking at them like hmm. But yeah I think yours is weirder. People showing up shirtless. Who wants to know about that? What are we doing here? Well I'm saying they won't show up shirtless. Yeah well you're putting a weird image in people's heads and I don't appreciate it on my ad.

[00:52:52] On my ad for families. I don't know what you're doing over there. There is nothing more family oriented. No. There is nothing more wholesome than wearing a shirt. Okay. I think I've seen many Norman Rockwell pictures many Disney movies everybody's wearing shirts. Yeah. It's very wholesome. Yeah. You don't even know the difference sometimes between

[00:53:22] like I I'm okay I'm just gonna I'm just gonna unload here. There's been so many times where I've been wearing a dress and Kevin's like I love your shirt. I'm wearing a dress. It's like what so I don't think you're one I don't think you even know about what's going on here. Well that's because I love these shirts so much I'm very shirts focused. Okay you're just all about the shirts. I just see shirts everywhere because I love these shirts. Nothing pleases me more in this life than to see someone wearing one of these shirts. Wow.

[00:53:54] Nothing pleases me That's really sad. Not even our wedding day. Not even your wife. Not even Lanny. Jeez. What is it? No I think you've got other interests too but I mean it definitely makes you happy. I'm trying to walk I'm trying to walk this back I'm trying to help you at this point. That's how bad this has gotten. You're like red faced I love it. Push the button. Fine. Thanks so much for listening to

[00:54:23] The Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover please email us at murdersheet at gmail dot com If you have actionable information about an unsolved crime please report it to the appropriate authorities. If you're interested in joining our Patreon that's available at www.patreon.com slash murdersheet If you want to tip us

[00:54:53] a bit of money for records requests you can do so at www.buymeacoffee.com slash murdersheet We very much appreciate any support. Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee who composed the music for The Murder Sheet and who you can find on the web at kevintg.com If you're looking to talk with other listeners about a case we've covered you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook.

[00:55:23] We mostly focus our time on research and reporting so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening. Before we wrap up this episode can we take just a moment to say a few more words about our great new sponsor Acorns? Yeah thanks so much to Acorns. Remember when you support our sponsors you're supporting us and our sponsors make it possible for us to do this job so we really

[00:55:53] appreciate them. We love our sponsors. Absolutely. Acorns is a terrific investing app. It's the perfect thing for somebody who wants to get started with their personal finance journey. It is daunting. I'm so not financially minded. For me it's always really hard to get started with something like this where you're like what am I doing? But Acorns sort of takes the guesswork out of that. It gets you started and it will essentially help you take control of your financial future.

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[00:56:53] money work for them more. So if you're interested, head to acorns.com slash msheet or download the Acorns app to start saving and investing for your future today. Paid non-client endorsement, compensation provides incentive to positively promote Acorns, tier one compensation provided, investing involved risk, Acorns Advisors LLC and SEC registered investment advisor, you important disclosures at acorns.com slash msheet. Before we go, we just wanted to say another few words about VIA. This is really a wonderful product. I think it's really helped both of us get a lot better rest.

[00:57:23] VIA is pretty much, I guess you'd say the only lifestyle hemp brand out there. So what does that mean? It means that they're all about crafting different products to elicit different moods. Kevin and I really like their non-THC CBD products, specifically Zen, really helps me fall asleep. Some Zen can really just kind of help me get more into that state where I can relax and fall asleep pretty easily. And they've been such a wonderful support to us. They're a long-time sponsor. We really love working with them and they really make

[00:57:53] this show possible. I'm going to say this, you may not realize this, but when you support our sponsors, you're supporting us and it kind of makes it possible for us to do this show. So if you or one of your loved ones is interested in trying some of this stuff, you're going to get a great deal. It's very high quality, high value. Anya, if I wanted to give this discount you speak of, what do I do? Okay, if you're 21 and older, head to viahemp.com and use the code MSHEET to receive 15% off. And if you're new to VIA, get a free gift of

[00:58:22] your choice. That's V-I-I-A hemp.com and use code MSHEET at checkout. Spell the code. M-S-H-E-E-T. And after you purchase, they're going to ask you, hey, where did you hear about us? Say the murder sheet because then it lets them know that our ads are effective and it really helps us out. Can we talk a little bit before we go about Quint's, a great new sponsor for us? I think in one of the ads that we've already done for them, we talked about the

[00:58:52] compliments I'm getting on my jacket. I know you're a very modest woman, but can we talk about the compliments you're getting on the Quint's products you wear? Yeah, I've got two of their Mongolian cashmere sweaters. They're a brand that just does this sort of luxurious products, but without the crazy costs really well. They give you Italian leather handbags. They do like European linen sheets. You have a really cool suede jacket. And I really like the

[00:59:22] way I look in my sweaters. I like the way you look in your bomber jacket. It looks super cool. You've gotten a lot of compliments when you go out wearing these sweaters. I think I have. Yeah. And deservedly so. Also, I'm one of those people, my skin is very sensitive. I'm kind of sensitive. So when it comes to wearing sweaters, sometimes something's too scratchy. It really bothers me. These are so soft. They're just very delicate and soft. And wearing them is lovely because they're super comfortable.

[00:59:51] It's not one of those things where you're like, you buy it and it looks great, but it doesn't feel that great. They look great. They feel great. But yeah, I really love them. And you got your cool jacket. I mean, that's a little bit of a you're the guy who like wears the same thing all the time. So this was a bit of a gamble for you, a bit of a risk. You got something a bit different. I do wash my clothes. I know you wash your clothes, but I mean, you're filthy. You just made me sound awful. So no, I wash my clothes. But you don't really I longer them. You don't really experiment with fashion that much is what I'm saying.

[01:00:21] So this is a little bit out of the norm for you, but I think you really like it and it looks good. Thank you. Great products. Incredible prices. Absolutely. Quints.com. There you go. So you can go to quints.com slash msheet. And right now they're offering 365 day returns plus free shipping on your order. So it's quints.com slash msheet. That's q-u-i-n-c-e dot com slash m-s-h-e-e-t.