The Delphi Murders: A Conversation with Leaders from the National Organization of Parents of Murdered Children

[00:00:00] Content Warning, this episode contains discussion of the murder of two girls. The case of the Delphi Murders was thrown into disarray when Mitchell or Mitch Westerman leaked discovery materials from defense attorney Andrew Baldwin's office. Those discovery materials included graphic images of a crime scene involving two children,

[00:00:19] 13-year-old Abigail Williams and 14-year-old Liberty German. Baldwin and his co-counsel Bradley Rosie withdrew from the case as a result of all this. Now they're fighting to come back on and to throw off Judge Francis Gull. The result has been delays and legal wrangling.

[00:00:35] On January 18, 2024, the Indiana Supreme Court will hear oral arguments around who will stay and who will go. We've gone over the legal aspects of this situation in some depths. We've had on our program those who believe the attorneys should come back

[00:00:50] and those who believe the judge should stay on. These legal discussions are obviously very relevant. Questions of constitutional rights and legal processes will ultimately determine what happens going forward. But there's been one important aspect that we have not really explored.

[00:01:05] That is the emotional ramifications for the families of Abby and Libby. At the heart of this situation, we have two murdered children who have been re-victimized once more. Kevin and I talk to victims' families all the time behind the scenes and on this program.

[00:01:21] We delve into these cases. We try to report with empathy. But at the end of the day, we have not experienced the pain of losing a loved one to violence. We cannot fully grasp what that is like.

[00:01:33] So today, we wanted to talk to two people who understand it all too well. Both helped her on the national organization of parents of murdered children. Connie Shealy's brother Joel Holbrook was murdered in Kansas City, Missouri in 1999. His case remains unsolved to this day.

[00:01:52] Connie is the president of the POMC's National Board of Trustees. He's also the chapter leader of the POMC's Southeast Minnesota chapter, and previously was the board's treasurer. Lori King's sister Geneva Ann Odell was beaten to death and sexually assaulted by Terry Duffy in 1994.

[00:02:11] For years, Lori Work is a victim advocate of the Ohio Department of Rehabilitation and Corrections Office of Victim Services. Lori is retired but still active in her advocacy for victims. Connie and Lori will be speaking to us about the work that POMC does with victims surviving family

[00:02:29] members. They'll also be sharing their thoughts on the Delphi case, the leak of discovery materials, and how we can all keep empathy in mind when it comes to the families of murder victims. If you are listening and you've lost somebody to violence,

[00:02:43] we'll be including ways to get involved and get resources. Please keep in mind that POMC is there for the surviving families of murder victims. My name is Anya Kane, I'm a journalist. And I'm Kevin Greenlee, I'm an attorney. And this is The Murder Sheet.

[00:02:58] We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews and deep dives into murder cases. We're The Murder Sheet. And this is The Delphi Murders, a conversation with leaders from the National Organization of Parents of Murdered Children.

[00:03:58] First off, Connie and Lori, could you introduce yourselves and tell us a little bit about how you came to do this really important advocacy work at the Parents of Murdered Children organization? Well, I'm Connie. And I first got involved after the murder of my brother.

[00:04:18] My brother Joel was murdered 24 years ago. And his case remains unsolved as a matter of fact. That was, as you can imagine, was the most difficult thing I've ever experienced in my family. And you think the most difficult thing we've ever gone through.

[00:04:33] And after a few months, it was probably about six months after someone I knew told me about Parents of Murdered Children. I had not heard of it before. And a lot of people haven't if they don't need it. But someone had told me about Parents of Murdered Children

[00:04:49] and we had a chapter in our local area. So I decided to go to a meeting. And of course, the first one was very difficult because it was my first time. I went by myself. But it's about the best thing I could have done.

[00:05:03] I'm so glad that I did, that I took that step because it helped me tremendously in dealing with my grief, with the murder of my brother, as well as, you know, we talk about all the different things that come into play

[00:05:16] when it's a murder as opposed to any other kind of death. So it helped me so much and really helped me travel through my journey. And so after a while, I continued to go. And after a while, I decided that I wanted to get involved in the leadership.

[00:05:33] So I became, first of all, it was a chapter co-leader. And then I became our chapter leader. And then after that, I got involved on the national level with the national organization. And we both of us serve on the National Board of Trustees.

[00:05:48] And then I've also been very involved in the national conferences that we have every year. So quite involved, but I found because it helped me so much, I wanted to give back and share my experiences with others. And we all help each other, honestly.

[00:06:06] I mean, it's not, it's a two-way street. You know, we share support with others and others share support with me. You know, so it's a family. It's become a family. A family that none of us wanted to join.

[00:06:19] But we're so glad that we had this family to join when we needed it. Really well said. And just, I'm just so sorry for your loss. Lori, do you want to introduce your role and your sort of journey with this? My sister, Geneva, was murdered.

[00:06:37] She was beat and sexually assaulted. And she was my baby sister. I remember in the emergency room after it happened, I looked at her and I made a promise to her that day that I was going to always do my best to help others

[00:06:57] and not go through the hell that she went through. And so that's what I live by and I will to the end, you know, be a victim advocate. I actually went through training, became a victim advocate for nationally and state through NOVA, National Organization for Victim Assistance,

[00:07:18] and also through the Ohio Advocate Network Program. So, you know, got as much information as I could. I started off by working the very first director of victim witness in Fayette County, Washington Courthouse, Ohio.

[00:07:36] And then from there, I moved on to the Ohio Department of Rehabilitation and Correction, Office of Victim Services, where I covered Southwest Ohio helping crime victims. In the meantime, with all that being said, I also got very involved with parents of murdered

[00:07:54] children. And with parents of murdered children, they are absolutely part of our family. You know, it's a family you never wanted and would trade certainly if your loved one was back, but you are blessed every single day to know that you have this family who understands

[00:08:14] like nobody else can understand what we've all been through. You know, I mean, and I am the vice president of the Parents of Murdered Children Board, and I do my best as Courtney was saying as well, you know, to give back and help others.

[00:08:32] Thank you so much, Lori. And I just want to also just say we're so sorry for your loss. I just want to say for both of you that your decision to put that pain into helping others and helping other families in the same position is just incredibly commendable.

[00:08:47] And we're just very honored to have you on tonight. I guess for my next question, I'll just ask, can you tell us a bit more about POMC? What kind of work it does and just, you know, give us an overview?

[00:09:01] Yes. Parents of Murdered Children was founded in 1978 in Cincinnati, Ohio by Robert and Charlotte Hollinger, whose 19 year old daughter was murdered. They didn't know what to do or how to get through their traumatic grief when that

[00:09:17] happened, and they were introduced to a few other parents. And they first met in their home to support each other and try to figure out how to move forward and help each other deal with

[00:09:29] their grief. And since that first meeting in 1978, POMC has grown into a national organization with many local chapters located all across the country. And POMC exists to provide support, advocacy, education, awareness and assistance to survivors of murder. We welcome all family members

[00:09:51] and friends of those who have died by violence. And there are many resources available through the National POMC office, providing information and resources and all kinds of things as well as resources through the local chapters. Parents of Murdered Children provides support

[00:10:10] and tips for survival, navigating the criminal justice system, as well as various other programs that are offered. The National Organization of POMC also holds an annual national conference that's located in different locations across the country each summer. This year in 2024,

[00:10:30] our conference will be held in Las Vegas, Nevada, July 18th through the 21st. It's open to any survivors as well as professionals who work with survivors. They're welcome to come as well. As I mentioned, the local chapters that are located across the country, we hold monthly

[00:10:48] support group meetings either in person and or virtually. There's a lot of chapters, including mine, that offers virtual support group meetings. And therefore members to receive and offer support to each other, just help each other. We talk about whatever it is we need to

[00:11:07] talk about. You know, everybody's at a different place in their journey at different times. And so we just talk about whatever we need to talk about. Some chapters also hold special events such as the National Day of Remembrance for Murder Victims, as well as provide

[00:11:23] court accompaniment to support others when they have trials. So drilling down on this specific case, we're talking about the Delphi Murders case tonight, specifically the leak. And having looked into it a bit, can you share your thoughts on the case

[00:11:44] and the leak as a survivor of a murdered relative? Well, first and foremost, it's certainly a sad situation about the leak of the information. And now it is not kept safe anymore and confidential. The victims, even after death, are being re-victimized because of this leak.

[00:12:06] And so are their families. The question now is what will happen with the information? That's the big question. There is some people out there who have been fortunate enough not to be in this situation you have found yourself in and never lost family members to violence

[00:12:26] like this. And maybe they don't understand. Can you speak as to why the leak of crime scene photos would be so traumatic from the perspective of the surviving family members? Sure. First of all, to me, it would feel like a big invasion of privacy.

[00:12:49] We should all think about how we would feel or anyone should think about how you would feel if the photos were of our loved ones or your loved ones, or if they were even of ourselves.

[00:13:00] And I know I wouldn't want others to see photos of either myself or my loved ones like that. Family members can be re-traumatized by seeing those photos and knowing that the public is able to view them as well. Loved ones can be re-traumatized every time they see

[00:13:18] the photos or someone else even talks about them. We all want to remember our loved ones in the way they lived, not how they died. And that's how we want others to see and remember them.

[00:13:30] On top of the trauma, the victims' families are already experiencing, finding out that the crime scene photos were leaked. The pain and shock can take them even deeper into their grief. And hopefully the families have already talked to a victim advocate and the prosecutor about

[00:13:46] the details of the murder and the crime scene, which may help to prepare them for what they may hear about the details of the leak. And then this next question, I feel Connie, you sort of already answered it, but I'll ask it anyway because the scenario that unfortunately

[00:14:02] comes to mind with this situation is the possibility of the victims surviving family members in this case seeing without consent and without opting to images of their dead loved

[00:14:17] ones. And I suppose, can you speak to the meaning of viewing the body of a loved one who's died by violence? You know, and what that would mean for somebody who cares about that victim versus

[00:14:31] just somebody who's in the public who may be unconnected? A loved one can be traumatized certainly by viewing the body or the photographs of the loved one's body. It is personal when it is someone you love, it has a different impact. Family knows the victim, who they were,

[00:14:52] and what their heart was and soul was. And they have that special connection with that victim. And those images and the pain and the suffering they see in Phil when they, you know, look at those photos and the image of what their loved one went through. And

[00:15:20] it brings up all of the same questions, reoccurring thoughts of what they went through over and over again. You know, as they, you know, think about it when your loved one was murdered,

[00:15:34] it is something that your heart, you think about them all the time and, you know, wish that you could have done something to save them, done something, you know, before that. But just

[00:15:49] knowing the pain that they went through and you just feel it every single time that you've used someone, a victim, they are more than likely when it comes to someone who doesn't have that perspective. And that investment, it's more than likely that person is just curious to,

[00:16:12] you know, know what happened. And then they simply are like, oh, that's a sad situation. And then they just simply move on. You know, the ripple effect again, a crime, they're sorry that, you know, that happened to the victim and the impact of, but they're unconnected.

[00:16:31] And again, they just simply move on. What does it mean to a victim's surviving family members that anytime they log on to check their email or to visit Facebook or YouTube or what have you, they have to worry now about seeing something that they should never

[00:16:55] have to see? That's a good question. I would say there would probably be a very cautious apprehension and fear about what they may see when they log on and what may show up unexpectedly

[00:17:09] that they're not prepared for. And when that happens, it would be traumatizing all over again. And if it were me, I would probably most likely limit my online activity to avoid that retraumatization. Or I would ask a trusted friend or family member to log on first to kind

[00:17:29] of act as a screener for the information so someone else, you know, if there was something they would see it and, you know, screen it for me. So that's probably, that's what I think would be the case

[00:17:39] would I how I would act react to that. What does it mean for surviving family members when people online or wherever treat a murder case as if it's a parlor game?

[00:17:54] That's another very good question. And for those of us who have had a loved one murdered that has a whole different meaning. But to many surviving family members, this can be very offensive. There are people who treat a murder case as entertainment or like an adventure.

[00:18:11] And for those whose family members have been murdered, a murder case is not a game. But it's a reality. It's not entertainment, but it's real life. One of POMC's many programs is called mine, which stands for murder is not entertainment.

[00:18:27] And the mind program draws attention to how our society, entertainment, etc., has used violence, especially murder, as a topic of entertainment. This has made people indifferent to how murder affects those who have experienced it in their lives. Murder is not entertainment,

[00:18:45] it is a reality. It is our reality. I personally am particularly offended when I see a group or an organization host a murder mystery party or murder mystery dinner theater. One of the activities that has been utilized in the POMC mine program is a similar game,

[00:19:04] which is called pedophile on the playground. Whenever that game idea follows the same format as a murder mystery, but it's a pedophile on the playground and whenever that game idea is shared with other people, people will like gasp and say you can't do that. But in actuality,

[00:19:25] there really isn't such a game. It's just to prove a point. It's fictitious. But however, I always wonder why is that not okay? But it's okay to make a game out of murder. In recent years, it seems like this attitude towards murder and violence has really shifted

[00:19:43] and become more acceptable, more commonplace. And that makes me very sad. The one thing about being the family, the surviving family member of a murder victim is if you are not telling other people they don't necessarily know that. So when you're hosting

[00:19:58] something like that, it might end up being pretty insensitive to somebody. There's no visible marking that you've lost or relative to violence. But if you're then put in that situation, I imagine it could be incredibly triggering so people need to understand that and proceed with caution

[00:20:15] when dealing with stuff like that. This is kind of a related question. But we've seen in the Delphi case, it's attracted an inordinate amount of online attention. I would say some of that attention has been positive or well intentioned. Because it's coming from a

[00:20:33] place of people I think who want justice for the girls and want to see that happen. So intentions are good largely. But there's also a lot of unhelpful behavior from people who are both

[00:20:44] good intentioned and bad intentioned. And so when does the environment around a case go from being helpful, people spreading information, calling for a solve, you know, pressuring the police to stay on the case and work it really hard to unhelpful, meaning that it's like morbid

[00:21:00] curiosity prompting people to spread stuff around like leaked crime scene photos. What's the line there? Well, it is helpful for people to provide legitimate assistance in a case such as sharing useful factual information or witness information. It crosses a line certainly when

[00:21:24] unsubstantiated rumors are spread gossip speculations are shared, probing curiosity and unsensitive comments, which you know is just very sad in those rumors can be so hurtful. But you know just remembering the factual information and that is certainly the most helpful.

[00:21:52] One thing we've heard from people is they don't understand why this particular leak of crime scene photos is a big deal because it's evidence that would be seen in court. And I was just wondering how you would respond to that or what do you make of that argument?

[00:22:12] Crime scene photos are traumatizing to family members. They don't need to be subject to seeing the photos and the public doesn't have a need to see them. Yes, the photos would be viewed in

[00:22:26] a courtroom by a jury but they may not be made accessible to all to see them nor do they need to be seen. The photos are of a child victims. Whoever leaked them should certainly be charged

[00:22:42] and convicted for disseminating child victim photos. The leak of this, these photos is not fine. The Indiana Victims Rights Law says all victims of crime in Indiana have the right to fairness, dignity and respect, freedom from intimidation and harassment and abuse.

[00:23:07] Based on what you know do you have any opinions you'd care to share about how you view the defense attorney's role in this situation? Well I feel that the defense attorney should be held

[00:23:22] accountable for his role in the leak of these photos because as Lori said making these photos public is not okay and it is not showing respect and dignity to the child victims.

[00:23:37] And in this case, in the Delphi case we have a gag order. It's a pretty broad one and it not only incorporates the parties in the trials of the defense attorneys and the prosecutor but actually the victims' families as well and witnesses. And what are your thoughts

[00:23:54] on the gag order? Specifically one thing we've noticed is that it's prevented the families of the victims in this situation from speaking out especially at a time like this when they've been

[00:24:07] so adversely affected by this leak. And so I guess just with that in mind, what are your thoughts on the gag order as it pertains to this case? Well I just think it may be

[00:24:20] necessary to keep the details private that pertain to the facts of the case. However families many times need to express their feelings and to aid in their healing as long as it doesn't jeopardize

[00:24:34] the case. The Indiana Victims' Rights allows the victims the right to confer with a prosecutor's office for the victim's families to be able to speak to the prosecutor's office to get the clear understanding about what they are allowed to speak about and what they're not

[00:24:56] allowed to speak about. That clarification of what this gag order means for them. That makes a lot of sense. Yeah I think it was so broadly written and stated that it's driving some of the quiet in this situation and I hope that they're able to find that voice

[00:25:18] if they want to. Obviously it's not their role to police the situation but they're very eloquent when it comes to speaking on these topics. How can the legal system make victims surviving family members feel revictimized all over again

[00:25:36] through the legal process? Well sometimes victim blaming happens and that's hurtful to families when family members feel like their feelings aren't considered or the leak of the photos is revictimizing as well as the gag order can be hurtful depending you know I don't know all the

[00:25:56] details of that. The timeline of the court case moving through the judicial system, the delays and the postponements that affects the family because they want to get some justice. In some cases families may not always be kept informed of what is happening with the case

[00:26:13] and what to expect like when they go to trial it's helpful to know that ahead of time what's going to happen. On the other side a positive for victims families are the victims' rights

[00:26:25] to be kept informed, the right to be heard and the right to present a victim impact statement at the sentencing those are all positives that can be helpful for a family. Absolutely I'm a

[00:26:38] journalist one thing that I'm always curious about is how can the media especially the traditional media do better when it comes to dealing with crime stories and I think for this question I'd also like to include social media because new media creators like podcasts like YouTube have been

[00:26:54] important in this case as well and I'm curious in your perspective how can traditional media and social media make victims surviving family members feel revictimized all over again in their by their actions? I think sometime by sensationalizing events stories not properly

[00:27:18] researching facts and what is reported or shared especially on social media people tend to speculate gossip etc and I think you know as long as you know people are respectful

[00:27:35] and ask the question give you know the facts clear facts and not you know be out there trying to sensationalize it is so very important. Defense attorneys of course have a role to play in the

[00:27:53] process where they're obliged to represent and defend their clients some of whom are accused of or are guilty of some pretty heinous things is there a way that defense attorneys and defense teams

[00:28:12] can be sensitive to victims families while still vigorously trying a case? There is a line there I think I understand you know the defense attorneys do have a job to do to represent their clients

[00:28:27] but I think if they can refrain from the victim blaming as I mentioned before and act in a respectful manner you know just be respectful to the victims and their families and victims families don't have to talk to the defense attorney unless they are testifying in court

[00:28:45] and are asked questions by the defense attorney so if they are asked to speak to them outside of the courtroom they don't have to do that so you know that's one way that to be respectful

[00:28:58] towards families. And how can both journalists and other new media creators such as maybe non-journalistic podcasters and youtubers and moderators on different social media platforms be more sensitive to victims families in a situation like Delphi in a high-profile murder case? Well I think I alluded

[00:29:19] to it a little bit ago just simply be respectful factual present information the victims families from the from the victims families perspective and put yourself in the family shoes and think about what you would want acknowledge the family members loss and ask permission for what they would like

[00:29:47] you to share and also remember to share resources because you guys are out there being able to give the opportunity for families to hear information offer resources and tools to help these families out there to help them cope offer to do tribute memorial for the the two girls

[00:30:12] would be another beautiful thing to do if the family were interested in that at any point and then most importantly remember the victims remember the girls. Really well said that's why we're so grateful to be talking to you both tonight because I feel like people learning more

[00:30:29] about parents of murdered children if people who are listening have lost somebody or they know somebody who has lost somebody I want them to really be strongly considering maybe you're not ready right now but at some point in the future this organization does wonderful work

[00:30:43] and can have resources for you in your specific situation because you don't have to go through this alone even though I'm sure it's a very very lonely feeling especially at first. So

[00:30:57] I want to go into how this is this is a broader question because this more of applies to some of our listeners and just people who are interested in true crime. I like to think a lot

[00:31:09] of our listeners don't really see it as entertainment so much as they want to be informed and they want to be educated and I think that's where they're coming from but how can people who

[00:31:20] are just following these cases be more sensitive to victims families when they're consuming that information and those you know products that have essentially been made about a homicide. Well I would say just remember to always to give the victims family members space that they need

[00:31:44] to navigate the new world that they live in because when this happened it changed their lives have changed forever from this event this tragic event give them time let them have the time

[00:31:56] to grieve the loss of their loved ones and and again just be respectful just you know be caring for the family members and respectful and just give them the space they need. Do you have any

[00:32:12] thoughts for the the families in this Delphi situation going forward and the face of this leak and the possible reinstatement of the defense attorneys? Well first and foremost the victims families you know don't have any control over this part of the judicial system but what with that

[00:32:34] being said I would suggest that they stay connected with the victim advocates in the prosecutor's office and and also another good key tool would be to keep your own records of any pertinent information and documentation that you're permitted to have through the courts and

[00:32:54] things like that ask the advocate to keep you informed of any step-by-step information as it becomes available and that they're permitted to share with you so that they are prepared and ready and anytime there is a court hearing on this case the victims families have the right

[00:33:15] to be informed of the hearings and to be present when the defendant is present in the court so those are just key important things for the the victims to know that they have and and again

[00:33:28] you know some things are out of their control so that part of it you know they may not have most likely don't have a control over that part of it. Absolutely and this is a question for

[00:33:43] both of you just speaking as survivors of murdered family members what is it like for you to see victims families in this situation go through something as traumatic as this leak and some of this heightened public scrutiny? Well it is definitely heartbreaking and it really breaks my heart

[00:34:07] we personally know what they're dealing with not everything that they're dealing with but we know the experience that they've gone through and we know the journey that they are on so our hearts are with them with the families and it's just really heartbreaking everything that's happened.

[00:34:24] And the same here you know I feel the same just heartbreaking but you know I want them to know they are not alone we are here if they need anything again we've got that support for them

[00:34:40] we have people that can you know especially that connection who've lost a loved one and has that better possible understanding of that impact that they might be going through right now

[00:34:55] so our hearts certainly go out to them. Of course the POMC is there for a lot of people who go through this terrible situation. Can you tell us a little bit about what services and resources the POMC provides families? Absolutely parents murdered children provide support

[00:35:19] advocacy education awareness and like I said assistance to survivors of murder we welcome all family members and friends of those who have died by violence there are many resources available through the National Parents Murder Children's Office providing information and resources as

[00:35:39] well as through local chapters there's local chapters right there in Indiana as well POMC provides support and tips for survival navigating the criminal justice system because many of us have been there done that going through this court process so again they're not alone if they

[00:36:01] wanted to or anyone out there that's listening that's a crime victim to you know parents murder children organization is here as Connie alluded to earlier we hold a annual national conference this year again it's in Las Vegas July 18th or the 21st and the local chapters

[00:36:22] hold support groups every month support group meetings some of them are in person others are virtual so that's nice you know for the zoom meetings if you're you can't travel in but

[00:36:35] you can you know be part of that support group in that way even if you just go and attend the first time and you don't say a word you just there and taken in the information and to hear these family

[00:36:48] members talk about their loved ones or say their loved ones name in a safe environment where you know others around them understand and care we also have special event called national day of the member in September 25th of each year is the national day to remember

[00:37:07] homicide victims murder victims as well as to provide you know we provide court accompaniments to support and show that support in the courtroom with the crime victims families so we do that as well during the trials there are two local chapters again

[00:37:24] and indiana that offer support the ones in Hobart Indiana it's the greater midwest chapter the phone number for them it is area code 2196160069 or another number would be 2196827285 then our other chapter is the Kentucky in it in a chapter it's in Louisville Kentucky

[00:37:59] that phone number area code 502 9303853 and again those are two good connections for families if there are people out there maybe even in other parts of the country who are in this terrible situation and have heard you listing and discussing some of the services

[00:38:25] you offer and they want that sort of help how could they contact the POMC anyone across the country can contact the national organization of parents of murdered children office it's located in Cincinnati Ohio which was the birthplace where the organization started

[00:38:46] there's we have a website which is plmc.org plmc.org and on the website there's all kinds of information and resources there's also a tab that says chapters so anyone can go on there

[00:39:03] and click on the chapters tab and find all the different chapters that are out there in the country so if you live in another state California Oregon yeah you know Georgia whoever you are

[00:39:17] you can find a chapter that's close to you as well as we mentioned before that some chapters do offer their support group meetings by zoom which my local chapter does that and so do several others but the national office can help with that that information which chapters are

[00:39:35] available for you to join by zoom if you're not able to find one that's close to you they can help with that as well there's also a phone number you can call the phone number for the

[00:39:45] national office is 513-721-5683 so you can either call or go to the website and find all types of information and resources and connect with a chapter that you can share with and for support and yeah again we really strongly encourage if you're a listener out there who's

[00:40:07] who's dealing with this or you know someone who is this is this is a great organization and you should you know consider going there and looking into some of these resources because you will be with people who understand on some level what you're going through in a way

[00:40:24] that not everybody can and I love what you both said earlier about it being a family that you never want to join but you don't have to be alone yeah what does the public the people who maybe are not

[00:40:37] part of that family because they've not been through this awful situation what what does the public need to better understand about what surviving family members of homicide victims are going through in order to just understand that better and maybe engage with more empathy and more

[00:40:54] understanding in those situations well I think first of all survivors need to have space just to be given space for their privacy everyone grieves differently different rates some people I think don't understand that oh it's been it's been six months you should be dealing with

[00:41:16] it differently now it's been two years why are you still dealing with this now they don't understand and so I think you know people need to realize that there is no time limit on that grief of a

[00:41:32] loved one just to understand and be compassionate to them the best you can and again just give them that time to grieve and then our final question is just is there anything we didn't ask you

[00:41:47] Connie and Laurie that you wanted to mention that you think it's important to note if you know someone who has suffered the the death of a loved one through homicide encourage the survivors to contact parents or murdered children just give them the information share that with them

[00:42:05] and encourage them to contact us because it can be very helpful and like we already said you know it's a it is a family it's a family none of us wanted to be a part of because the the dues were too

[00:42:16] high to join but we are really glad that we have this family because it has really it can be can be a lifesaver you know for a lot of people and when someone does contact the national

[00:42:29] organization of parents and murdered children they will be given a packet of information that contains a lot of resources in their area as well as the programs and services that's provided

[00:42:40] by the national organization and again you can also find a lot of that information on our on the website as well wonderful well that was all of our questions I really think this is going to be

[00:42:51] so helpful for some of our listeners because I know we have families listening thanks so much to Connie and Laurie and to everyone with POMC for the incredible work they do please if you

[00:43:03] were going through something like this or you know someone who is if you're just in touch with people involved in a murder case who've lost loved ones to violence please let them know about this wonderful

[00:43:14] resource thanks so much for listening to the murder sheet if you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover please email us at murder sheet at gmail.com if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime please report it to the appropriate authorities

[00:43:37] if you're interested in joining our patreon that's available at www.patreon.com slash murder sheet if you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests you can do so at www.buymeacoffee.com slash murder sheet we very much appreciate any support

[00:44:00] special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee who composed the music for the murder sheet and who you can find on the web at kevin tg.com if you're looking to talk with other listeners about a case we've covered you can join the murder sheet discussion group on facebook

[00:44:18] we mostly focus our time on research and reporting so we're not on social media much we do try to check our email account but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages thanks again for listening