The Delphi Murders: Defense Investigator Matthew Hoffman, Phone Pings, and Youtube Leaks: "If Something Happens to Us"

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[00:01:39] Enhance your every day with Viah. Caution, this episode includes discussion of the murder of two girls. It also includes profanity.

[00:01:50] Matthew Hoffman, an investigator for Richard Allen's defense team, provided detailed case information to YouTubers regarding phone pings on the day of the murders of Liberty German and Abigail Williams.

[00:02:03] These are, of course, two Delphi Indiana teenagers who were murdered back in 2017. Richard Allen is the man accused of murdering them.

[00:02:12] In our previous episode, we did allude to the fact that a pair of internet cranks named Angela Szylbowski and Courtney Parsons claimed to have had a meeting with Hoffman in Indianapolis.

[00:02:25] So in this episode, we are going to get into that meeting and discuss at least one of the bits of information that he shared with them about the case.

[00:02:36] Before we do that, let's just recap a bit about some recent reporting we've done on this overall situation around leaks from the defense team. So previously, we delved into secret Twitter messages involving the following people. Appellate attorney and lunar landing denier, Carol Weineke.

[00:02:59] Michael Osbrook, the attorney for Allen's defense attorneys Andrew Baldwin and Bradley Rosie. Self-proclaimed voice of Richard Allen and YouTuber Bob Mata. Internet crank, Nicole Miller and the aforementioned internet cranks Parsons and Szylowski who shared a YouTube channel at the time.

[00:03:17] That reporting exposed the pipeline between individuals working on Allen's defense team, representing the attorneys on that team, filing and writing briefs and YouTubers.

[00:03:30] And so in this episode again, what we're going to do is we're going to share an example of a bit of information that was shared via that pipeline.

[00:03:40] And this is a very specific bit of information that has everything to do with some phone pings on the day of the murders. Now, when we talk about phone pings, it's crucial to really remind ourselves that there's a pretty big caveat here and what is that?

[00:04:00] I mean, phone pings are not entirely reliable in terms of location.

[00:04:04] Pings are understanding from talking with people who know about the subject and just from doing basic reading up on different true crime cases that you don't necessarily, you're not looking at an exact location necessarily when you're looking at a phone ping. It may just be an approximation.

[00:04:21] I think we've all probably experienced something where momentarily if we are looking at a loved one's location on a phone track or suddenly are like, wait, you're at a Costco? Oh wait, no, you're back at home?

[00:04:32] Things can be a little bit inexact when it comes to this space. And that's certainly true within true crime.

[00:04:39] I know Carroll County prosecutor Nicholas McClillan even noted some of the failings of phone pings when it came to exact locations noting that depending on what type of ping it is and depending on the circumstances, it can be off by quite a distance.

[00:04:57] So what we are sharing today is not so much about the validity of the phone pings, not so much about the value of the information.

[00:05:07] I think what we are just sharing is the fact that the defense team, at least Mr. Hoffman believed this was very important information that deserve further investigation. It was also information that was covered by protective order.

[00:05:20] And this is information that he still chose to share with Miss Ladowski and Miss Parsons seemingly in direct violation of that order. My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist. And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney. And this is the murder sheet.

[00:05:38] We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases. We're the murder sheet. And this is the Delphi murders defense investigator Matthew Hoffman, phone pings and YouTube leaks. If something happens to us. So where do you want to begin?

[00:06:42] Why don't we talk about just where this is coming from first. So this is not from the Twitter messages. We will be citing some of the Twitter messages later on. But this predominantly comes from discord messages between our source Paul Manion as well as Sid Lousky and Parsons.

[00:07:00] As a recap, this group once worked on a YouTube channel together that Paul owned. And then he decided that things were going in a direction that he did not feel comfortable with. He shut it down.

[00:07:12] He describes all of his reasoning in a previous interview we did with him that you can listen to now. We'll link to it in the show notes along with our other reporting.

[00:07:20] But he has since provided these messages that concern him in the name of transparency and out of concern for the case. And frankly, concern for the people involved. This has been a case where leaks have had devastating impacts.

[00:07:37] And there's a sense here that if the defense team is being incredibly careless at best, that needs to be brought to light. I agree. I think we established pretty clearly. There is, as you say, this pipeline. We've seen screenshots of messages between Miss Ladowski and Mr. Hoffman.

[00:07:58] And we've also seen a variety of messages, some of which we quoted in our earlier episodes in which reference is made to Sledowsky and Parsons having some sort of in person meeting with Matt Hoffman,

[00:08:16] the defense investigator on the day of groundswell or immediately around the day of groundswell groundswell was this failed low turnout rally they had in support of Richard Allen. So Sledowsky and Parsons came to Indiana for that.

[00:08:35] And at some point during that visit is when this meeting with Hoffman is said to have occurred. So groundswell as a reminder occurred on Monday, November 27th, 2023. That was the day that Parsons and Sledowsky were documented as being in Indianapolis.

[00:08:51] They filmed this entire thing, which I think only got about less than 10 people. And let's go into who Hoffman is though because he's sort of at the center of this to us.

[00:09:03] What is newsworthy about this story in particular is the fact that you have a defense investigator essentially giving information and deputizing internet cranks. If the internet cranks are just doing their own thing, that's not news to us.

[00:09:17] If the defense is in some way legitimizing what they're doing by giving them this information and leaking and possibly violating a protective order, that's very newsworthy. So Hoffman is often described as an investigator for the defense.

[00:09:33] He is the former chief of the Carmel Fire Department in Indiana, but in the messages between the attorneys and the cranks on Twitter in what we call the due process gang, they actually indicated he might technically be an in office assistant in the paperwork and not an investigator.

[00:09:53] So he's seemingly acting as an investigator that may not be his official title, but that's what you need to know about Hoffman.

[00:10:00] We will say that when we do this report, we're not taking the word of Sledowsky and Parsons when it comes to saying that they're in contact with Hoffman. We're actually going to be able to show you that they possess information that they should not have known.

[00:10:18] And this is information that Hoffman should have known. And so it is difficult to imagine a way they could have gotten this information other than the way they themselves say they got it, and they say they got it from Matt Hoffman during this meeting.

[00:10:35] Some more scene setting before we talk about the meeting. So on October 26 2023, after Rosie and Baldwin, the original defense attorneys withdrew from the case. The following order went out from Judge Francis Gall, the judge on the case, quote,

[00:10:53] Council ordered to comply with the previously entered protective order on discovery and are ordered to turn the discovery over in full to the state of Indiana to be made available to successor council.

[00:11:05] Court requests their cooperation with successor council in the best interests of their former client but is not requiring them to cooperate. End quote. So give back all the discovery material and information so that the state can then give it to the new attorneys, William Labrador and Robert Scrimman.

[00:11:25] Then October 27 2023, the following day, Gall appoints the new attorneys Scrimman and Labrador. So they're off the case. They're required to turn over the discovery back to the state and it's still under protective order that's in late October. Yes. And so groundswell was in late November. Correct.

[00:11:49] So November 27 2023, a Monday. We don't know exactly when this meeting would have happened but it would have had to be somewhere around that time. Yes. And what Parsons and Sledowski described sounds frankly like something out of a bad thriller movie. You've probably seen this before.

[00:12:09] Some source goes to the intrepid sleuths and says I have information that will blow the case wide open and I'm scared for my life. We've all seen that trope play out before in fiction, I'm sure. Now I'm going to read from something Sledowski wrote about this meeting.

[00:12:25] This is from a message she sent on January 30th, 2024 at 7 57am. And again, these are the words of Angela Sledowski describing a meeting between herself, Matt Hoffman and Courtney Parsons quote.

[00:12:42] When Matt sat me in court down and showed us, he literally said, Andy has told only one other person on the planet this info. And if something happens to us, I want someone else to have it end quote.

[00:12:55] So there Hoffman appears to be indicating that something bad could happen to him or other members of the defense team. And essentially that is partly motivating his decision to share information with Parsons and Sledowski. Now we have some interesting information. Some context if you're right.

[00:13:14] Some context because I think this would be one of those things we would maybe wonder in other circumstances. Oh, come on, are they really saying that their lives are in danger?

[00:13:24] But we actually do believe this because we can confirm without a doubt that at least one other member of this defense team was telling people that they were scared and thought people, possibly odeness, were coming for them as part of a huge conspiracy.

[00:13:37] And that occurred in 2023 before the team was even kicked off the case. So if you want to be generous, I think the most general possible reading of that. Well, first I'll be blunt. Let's be blunt, let's be honest.

[00:13:52] These men on the defense team, they were never under threat from odeness. That's nonsense. There was no threat to them from odeness. So if we want to be generous, we can say well maybe they were paranoid.

[00:14:08] Maybe they convinced themselves that they were in danger when in fact they weren't. Maybe as the expression goes, they got high on their own supply. And if that's true, if they have that level of paranoia, that says something to me about the quality of their judgment.

[00:14:26] What's the other possibility? The other possibility is that they are pandering to naive and hyped up cranks in order to get them to be their devoted loyal soldiers and do whatever they want.

[00:14:40] Because I think it's more salient for people when you have this, not only this important mission that gives your life meaning, but the forces of evil are actually conspiring to take out your allies.

[00:14:53] It emboldens you, it makes you feel even more locked in, even more committed to what's going on. So I tend to look at it that way, that economy of have they on some level just become that paranoid?

[00:15:11] Or is this a matter of frankly, to be blunt, conning the rubes? You know, ooh yeah, we're all part of this big mission. Ooh, shadowy forces are coming to get us. And either way, I mean either way. It's not good, it doesn't make them look good either way.

[00:15:28] And I was telling you right before we started recording that it occurred to me that if they actually believed they were facing a threat because they possessed certain bits of information and then they're sharing that information with isolated YouTubers.

[00:15:46] Aren't they then technically putting those YouTubers under threat and danger as well? Yeah, yeah. That's partly why I think it's just a manipulative tactic in order to make things seem more exciting and get people to do, I guess, free labor for you.

[00:16:01] And again, these men face no threat whatsoever from the oldness. That's utter nonsense. And also, I want to say if they really did believe they faced threat from oldness and that it was crucial that this information not be lost to the ages,

[00:16:17] lawyers or smart people, we can figure out ways to make sure that things get released even if we die. There was like safety deposit boxes, keys, wills, all sorts of different things that could be set up so that if Andy Baldwin and Matt Hoffman

[00:16:33] perished under mysterious circumstances, there was secret information about Odinism which still reached the world. It's just the fact that they were saying this and we know for a fact they were saying this before they even got thrown off the case. It's just, I don't know.

[00:16:46] I think it's supposed to impress people and influence their behavior. That's my take on it. But I mean, if it's really just actually sincere in that level of paranoia, then that makes me frankly more concerned. Yeah, more is the pity.

[00:16:58] Do you want to read Ms. Parsons' follow-up message to what Sledowski wrote? Yes, and of course this is again a discord between Parsons, Sledowski and our source, Paul Mannion. And this is again from January 30th, 2024. Courtney Parsons responds at 8.53 a.m.

[00:17:15] And this was directly in response to Angela Sledowski's comment about Matt Hoffman saying if something happens to us. Quote, yeah that was pretty heavy. What he sat down and showed us.

[00:17:29] Next was his Google map of all the phones that pinged around the crime scene that they didn't have an explanation for. And their movements for the many hours before, during and after the crime. So this is talking about some of what they discussed.

[00:17:43] This is what we'll be focusing on this specific topic for now. So we're not getting into everything they discussed necessarily. But some of what they discussed had to do with these phone pings.

[00:17:52] One thing that really strikes me when we're talking about this is that it seems in some of the things that we've been talking about.

[00:17:58] It seems in some of their filings the defense has not really had a full comprehension of how phone pings work and what that means and their relevance. And so I think when we're talking about this, it's really important to stress that that is the context.

[00:18:14] And therefore I don't believe the takeaway for any of this should be oh wow these mysterious phone pings. The whole thing is getting blown wide open.

[00:18:23] I think it should be this is interesting, but I don't know if it's necessarily coming from people who have a full understanding of the technology. And then I also want to stress that what Hoffman was showing them he was showing them a map where these phones were pinging.

[00:18:43] He also passed along to them identifying information about who those phones were linked to. And this is troubling for a number of reasons.

[00:18:55] One of which is the fact that as we are really trying to stress these phone pings are not dispositive just because a phone is said to ping in a particular area. That doesn't mean that person was at that particular spot at that particular time.

[00:19:12] So these pings need to be looked into by investigators, but they are by no means the end all or be all. Let me give an example.

[00:19:22] If Kevin is trying to prove that I knocked over a local Walmart stealing cereal and he's pointing to phone pings, he can say look the phone ping shows Anya in the Walmart at this time when it was robbed.

[00:19:36] But if I can then say no, I was across the street and witnesses put me there at the very time it was being robbed. Then we can look at the context of that and say well maybe the phone ping is not completely accurate.

[00:19:51] Maybe I was in the area but it doesn't prove I was at that specific location at the correct time. They seem to focus on one particular pinging phone.

[00:20:01] And that phone's number was associated with a young man we will call Jay about the phone appears to have been on a family plan that was maintained by his stepfather who we were called W. Now we are not using these people's full names, though we do have them.

[00:20:20] And even though Hoffman did give that information this identifying information to Sledowsky and Parsons and the reason why we are doing that again is because there is no reason to believe that this individual had anything to do with the murders.

[00:20:37] And when Hoffman passed along this identifying information about these individuals to Parsons and Sledowsky, he indicated that he was not certain that these people had ever been investigated by authorities. And so the underlying premise is that Parsons and Sledowsky should themselves do the investigation of those persons.

[00:21:04] And this again is troubling on many levels. Why would you have outsiders do that sort of work? And also it is troubling because they were investigated. We've been covering this case for a long time.

[00:21:21] When you're covering a case for a long time, you talk to people in the area, people local to the area, people in the community where the case happened.

[00:21:30] And you hear things and you talk to people about relevant happenings that happened immediately after the murders in terms of the investigation. People in the Delphi community are aware of these things. They talk about them.

[00:21:43] So based on all of this and all of our reporting, we can tell you that Jay has an alibi for the time of the crime. It is a good alibi that is supported by the testimony and claims of other people.

[00:22:00] So he has been cleared of involvement in the murders. It is not clear to us if Hoffman knew this at the time he was passing on this information to the cranks or if he did not know it.

[00:22:14] Now, if he knew it, if he knew that Jay had no involvement in the murders and he was still giving identifying information to Internet sluts, then he was doing something that was deeply reckless and irresponsible.

[00:22:26] But in fact, giving this information to the sluts at all was deeply irresponsible and seems to serve absolutely no legitimate purpose other than to open up Jay to possible harassment.

[00:22:40] And another matter on that since Hoffman and his employers were off the case at this time, it is very unclear to us why he was even still quote investigating it. If he wanted to share this info with others because he feared for his life.

[00:22:55] I mean, Labrado and Scrimmon were right there. They were serving as Alan's defense at the time. The defense attorneys, Baldwin and Rosie were instructed to cooperate with them and give them information. So I don't understand if he felt that this was truly important and worthy of further scrutiny.

[00:23:13] There was a path that would have not been in violation of the protective order open to him. Yes, if this information is so important and so crucial, Scrimmon and Labrado should have been made aware of it.

[00:23:25] I can't imagine any legitimate reason why Angela Sledowski and Courtney Parsons needed to be made aware of this confidential information that was protected by an order from the judge.

[00:23:39] So the upshot of this is that Parsons got so excited about getting all this exclusive information that she took a rather do it yourself approach to putting it all together.

[00:23:48] On February 11th, 2024 in messages between Parsons and our source Paul in response to an earlier question from Paul about why the defense assumed that the phone belonged to Jay, not his stepfather W.

[00:24:04] She wrote, quote, IDFK the phone number in Truthfinder is registered to the the phone number in Truthfinder is registered to Jay the kid on the report. Mac got it's associated with his stepdad W end quote.

[00:24:22] Again, this shows that Hoffman provided enough information to these internet cranks for them to actually plug that into Truthfinder and get an entire report on this person.

[00:24:34] So then from memory Parsons created a map of the area I think she got the map I guess from Google Maps, and she put the points on the map where she remembered seeing pings.

[00:24:48] So this is based on her memory of seeing the map when Hoffman showed it to her. Yes, I'll read the exact quote here so there's no confusion on February 12th 2024 at 1104 am Parsons wrote to Paul quote.

[00:25:03] So here's the map I made from what I wrote down about W aka his stepson Jay pings. I made an effort to take a strong mental picture when I was looking at it on Matt screen to remember where exactly the pings were end quote.

[00:25:18] So we've seen this map that Ms Parsons made, but we have not seen an actual map showing the pings because that material is protected by an order from the judge so we are not able to say if this map created by Parsons is accurate or not.

[00:25:35] But we can say that it appears to show pings in kind of widely separated areas across a wide area. That fair to say.

[00:25:44] Yeah, it's one thing people don't necessarily recognize about the deer Creek area where the girls were murdered is that it's not a flat plane there's sheer bluffs and it's very steep at points and it's it's definitely you don't necessarily get that from just looking at a map you sort of have to go there and check it out yourself but

[00:26:07] the phone on what Parsons compiled appears to be pinging in several different locations across a wide area around deer Creek between 130 and 330pm. And we assume that's on the day of the murders obviously.

[00:26:20] So in this back and forth, Paul questions whether or not a person could even get between all those points within that time span, which is a very good question because again we've been there it's not. It's not always easy ground to traverse I would say.

[00:26:35] Parsons in response to that wrote back that she only found one particular paying questionable. Paul responded by saying quote I mean it might be doable. Parsons then says quote but let me map it because I think it's realistic to be a four to five minute walk.

[00:26:51] In response Paul wrote but like those are uphill tracks and some instances unquote. Paul says the information could be interesting yet he indicated that he had some potential concerns about it writing quote.

[00:27:05] But I mean half is pretty sure this isn't like error stuff right like the whole thing about there only being two towers etc.

[00:27:13] Like I know we're kind of sketch on that but could that be part of it and quote Parsons replied to that quote he death feels like these pings are accurate.

[00:27:22] Then she went on to say quote I know it's on his list to try to find any indication these people were interviewed or if somewhere in this cluster fuck there's an explanation for why it's irrelevant and quote.

[00:27:35] Paul zoomed in on a part of the map that seemingly showed a trajectory and he thought that that area could be quote a pretty steep drop off unquote like a bluff.

[00:27:46] That might be difficult for a person to travel rapidly during the time frame he would need to travel it which would lend credence to the notion that these pings were errors.

[00:27:57] When he was talking to us in the interview Paul talked about how ultimately he's driven by an interest in the case and wanting to get good information on it.

[00:28:05] So it wasn't surprising for us to see that he was reacting somewhat skeptically to some of these claims you know even if he was open minded at that point.

[00:28:13] And I want to stress again and I'm probably going to stress this yet again before we're done that this information identifying Jay was by no means in the public domain.

[00:28:24] It simply was not known it was not out there and Parsons and Slotowski did in fact know this information right after they met with Hoffman.

[00:28:33] Yes and let's talk about some of the ties and claims around Hoffman from these people that we unpacked in our previous reporting on the secret Twitter messages. I'm going to give you some context for some particular messages and then Anya is going to read them.

[00:28:50] She's now going to read a message that Angela Slotowski sent to Attorney Kara Weineke on January 22nd 2024 at 617 p.m. Slotowski wrote quote when I was in Indie with Matt he suggested that perhaps girl herself is being blackmailed or threatened.

[00:29:10] Now I'm like IDK LOL could she be none of her behavior makes any sense and quote. And as we said before the idea that judge go is being blackmailed or threatened is patently absurd. Other messages indicate that Slotowski definitely had contact information for Matt Hoffman.

[00:29:29] Anya is going to read from a message that Slotowski sent on February 15th 2024 at 2.53 p.m. quote I just want to make sure I give you his current number. I'll message as soon as I hear back end quote.

[00:29:44] She then responded with more information on what apparently is Hoffman's preferred method of contact quote. Okay you can send any info you have to Matt he's the defense investigator and quote she provided Hoffman's email quote.

[00:29:57] I gave him a heads up that he may hear from you end quote thumbs up emoji on March 16th 2024 at 1133 a.m. Slotowski sent a message to the due process gang this of course is the big group text involving everybody.

[00:30:14] And this message refers to a possible phone call that recently taken place allegedly between Nick McClendon and Mike Thomas. She wrote quote defense daddy's made aware is the last I heard from Hoffmanator haven't pestered him yet today end quote.

[00:30:33] So this is Slotowski apparently using Hoffman to monitor the defense attorneys and indicating that something close to daily contact would have not been out of the realm of possibility. On April 4th 2024 in a message between Slotowski Parsons and internet crank Nicole Miller.

[00:30:52] Slotowski writes that she has stopped asking questions of YouTuber Bob Mada and Carol Weineke quote and have reverted back to just asking Matt lol.

[00:31:03] He seems to suggest there's supposed to be something good coming maybe tomorrow I just don't know what end quote then she followed up with quote trying not to ask too many questions since he's still working his normal job since he isn't getting paid lol end quote.

[00:31:19] Miller replied to that quote too slow not him everyone and everything else end quote so that is quite a lot of contact and let me just say that a number of these messages were two attorneys directly associated with the case.

[00:31:36] Carol Weineke was apparently writing briefs for this defense team.

[00:31:41] Osbrook was representing these attorneys not once did anyone ever express any skepticism about her claims as you might think if somebody is sort of running their mouth about something and you know for a fact you're not talking to that guy what do you what do you mean by that.

[00:31:57] Nobody questions it nobody pushes back and in addition to that throughout this and as we reported in our previous episodes Angela Sudlowski also includes screenshots of her messages with Matt Hoffman so we feel pretty confident that this was not just an internet crank blowing up something in her mind.

[00:32:21] Should we talk about the gag order protective orders things of that nature. Sure so I think people often ask us when they're talking about this latest round of reporting that we've done like is this against the gag order and.

[00:32:35] For a lot of it we just we don't know I mean it's it's kind of there's a lot of loopholes is a lot of things to parse but before we get into that with this specific instance let's talk about.

[00:32:45] The gag order and the protective order because they do different things the gag order prohibits extra judicial statements from certain people involved in the case while the protective order protects discovery materials so.

[00:32:58] They are often lumped together and people often use the gag order to describe the protective order but let's just define them quickly and talk about when they were implemented.

[00:33:07] So for the gag order on November 22nd 2022 McLean filed the state's motion for order prohibiting the parties council law enforcement officials court personnel corner and family members from disseminating information or releasing any extra judicial statements by means of public communication.

[00:33:27] And that had the following points will read them back and forth I guess quote number one that the state filed a case of. Accounts of murder against the defendant on October 28th 2022 in Carroll County circuit court and quote.

[00:33:42] To that the case has received extensive treatment in the local national international news media.

[00:33:48] Three that the media accounts concerning this cause have contained an undue number of statements relating not only to the progress of the investigation but conclusions of the investigation some of which have been untrue for.

[00:33:59] That it is reasonable to believe that the media will continue to cover this cause of action extensively and that the publicity will prejudice fair trial five that the additional statements and media coverage in the news is likely to produce prejudice in the community making it impossible to have a fair and impartial jury to ensure that all the parties have fair trial.

[00:34:20] Six that in order in place we're sure that the parties abide by Indiana rules of professional conduct rule 3.6.

[00:34:27] That comes now the state of Indiana by Nicholas C. McClendon Carroll County prosecuting attorney and request the court to prohibit the parties counsel law enforcement officials court personnel corner and family members from disseminating information or releasing any extra judicial statements by means of public communication until further order of the court and for all other just improper relief in the premises end quote.

[00:34:51] This order was granted by judge goal on December 1st 2022. Now let's do the protective order governing discovery that went down on February 17th 2023.

[00:35:05] It specifically orders the defendant and counsel for the defendant as follows quote one that one copy of the discovery material shall be provided to the council for the defendant end quote to the no additional copies of the discovery material shall be made to the court.

[00:35:21] The discovery material shall be provided by the defendant defendants counsel investigator expert or any other representative or agent of the defendant for any reason 3. That the discovery material should not be used for any purpose other than to prepare for the defense in the above reference cause number 4.

[00:35:36] The discovery material shall not be publicly exhibited displayed shown used for educational research or demonstrative purposes or used in any other manner except in judicial proceedings in the above referenced action. Quote 5 that the discovery material may be viewed only by parties counsel and counsel's investigators and experts 6.

[00:36:00] That if copies of the discovery material are made and provided to the defendant investigators or experts for the defense that sensitive and private information contained in the discovery shall be redacted including any social security numbers IDAC information NCIC information any format related to the personal information of juveniles including social security numbers names.

[00:36:21] And date of birth and any FBI sentinel information 7. That none of the discovery material shall be divulged to any person not authorized to view the discovery material this includes other witnesses family members relatives and friends of the defendant 8.

[00:36:36] That no person other than the defendant counsel for the defendant and those persons listed in paragraph 5 shall be granted access to said discovery material or the substance of any portion thereof.

[00:36:49] Unless that person has signed an agreement in writing that he or she has received copy of this order and that he or she submits to the court's jurisdiction and authority with respect to the discovery agrees to be subject to the court's contempt powers for any violation of this order.

[00:37:06] The grant is granted prior permission by this court to access said discovery 9. That upon final disposition of this case the discovery material than any and all transcripts shall be returned to the Carroll County prosecutor's office or maintained by defense counsel pursuant to the terms therein 10.

[00:37:25] The council for the defendant shall be responsible to ensure that all persons involved in the defense of this case comply with this order. Quote 11 that the written documents slash records provided by the state with the discovery material fall under the same rules as described above end quote.

[00:37:44] So yeah. There are several paragraphs there that seem to have been written to prohibit exactly the sort of information sharing that happened at this meeting with Hoffman Sledowski and Parsons.

[00:38:03] Yeah, and let me add this you can I think make a decent loop holy case about the gag order because technically at the time of this meeting Hoffman was not on the case. But the discovery material was was still very much bound by a protective order.

[00:38:19] And he was displaying it to them. Yes.

[00:38:22] So I believe personally looking at this information and barring any other information that I'm not aware of at this time which in which case I would certainly change my mind but I believe that Hoffman directly violated the protective order on the discovery materials by doing this.

[00:38:37] Again I keep saying this it is very important to note that this information identifying J was by no means in the public domain. It simply was not known and Parsons and Sledowski knew it after they had this meeting with Hoffman.

[00:38:52] And they say that they got it from him. They say that they were looking at a screen. This is where all the information came from. They were doing truth finder reports from him. I mean it's pretty clear to me what happened here.

[00:39:01] I also want to repeat an obvious and troubling fact. There has been a long history of leaks from the defense side in this case.

[00:39:10] Most dramatically of course were the leaks of crime scene photos that were said to have been leaked by Mitch Westerman a close friend and associate of Defense Attorney Andrew Baldwin. There was also the leak of the so-called recreated crime scene photo.

[00:39:24] This was posted to Twitter by Courtney Parsons. There were the due process gang messages. And now there is this. Matt Hoffman actually giving identifying information about who these phone pings belong to so that Parsons and Sledowski could play with them I guess. It's baffling. It's bizarre.

[00:39:46] It's not what you would expect to see from a professional defense team. I do want to stress back on June 20th, 2024 we wrote Defense Attorney Andrew Baldwin an email. At that time, Ania and I were working on trying to run down two stories.

[00:40:02] One of them of course was the story we've just shared with you. The story concerning a member of the defense team allowing Parsons and Sledowski to view discovery materials. The other story was something we have not been able to run down yet to our satisfaction.

[00:40:17] It involves a claim that someone may have been circulating medical information about Richard Allen that could possibly have come from the defense team. In our email to Baldwin we asked if he had any comment on these stories and if they were in fact true.

[00:40:32] On June 20th, 2024 he did reply in an email quote. Foss on both counts. Not even sure what medical records anyone would profess to have. I've never met Angela Sledowski or Courtney Parsons.

[00:40:46] We have our evidence locked down tight and no one gets to see it unless they sign an NDA. I am only answering your questions so that you don't air false information.

[00:40:56] Because of the gag order, I don't think we can make a public comment of the judge's goal has not ever made it clear what exactly can and can't be said. I would just tell you that if you air those claims you will be airing 100% lies.

[00:41:08] Let's review Sledowski's claims when it comes to Baldwin and Rosie specifically. And these are from the Twitter messages that we previously reported on but we're going to compile them on here just to dig into this.

[00:41:24] On January 26th, 2024 at 1.46pm, Weineke in a message to Sledowski wrote of Rosie and Baldwin. And this is a private message between the two. She wrote quote, they don't understand how news cycles run, smiley face. Friday afternoons are the worst time if you want a little attention.

[00:41:42] End quote. Sledowski replies quote, I keep trying to tell them that Paul slash Tobor has been complaining about the Friday surprises in the Delphi case for like five years now. He's like gee it is almost as if they don't want anyone to notice end quote.

[00:41:56] Weineke replies quote, you've talked to them. They're like fish out of water with the publicity thing. Brad's too cool to care about it. Andy is just so focused on the case that he isn't considering that publicity can help end quote.

[00:42:11] And so again, that is attorney for Richard Allen, Carol Weineke indicating that Angela Sledowski has in fact spoken to Rosie and Baldwin.

[00:42:20] Next on February 25th, 2024 at 11.10am, Sledowski privately told Weineke quote, I haven't told anyone this not even my little core group just out of an abundance of caution.

[00:42:32] But I had a meeting with Brad and Matt on Friday and against Matt yesterday so I could present two years worth of evidence of the state's strategic coordinated leak problem. End quote. Some context February 25th, 2024 was a Sunday.

[00:42:48] So those meetings, alleged meetings would have taken place February 23rd and February 24th, a Friday and a Saturday. On April 30th, 2024 in a private message sent at 11.01pm to Miller, Sledowski wrote quote, I talked to Andy throughout the day.

[00:43:07] None of them have shit and this dude is a literal fucking psycho end quote. It's not clear who exactly she's talking about there but the reference to speaking with Baldwin all day is quite interesting to us.

[00:43:19] On May 2nd, 2024 at 10.59pm, Sledowski told Miller privately quote, like I don't think I uploaded all of them and I'm trying to do a search fast for Andy. I found a video of Nick. I'll send it now.

[00:43:35] We just can't share it until I know if they can use it or not. I think they can though. Miller replied quote, what is it? Sledowski wrote back quote, it's him in a council meeting in August 2021 end quote.

[00:43:48] In addition to all of this in the discord messages between Paul and Sledowski, we also looked at some screenshots that Sledowski sent that purported to be of her communications with Hoffman. One came on August 21st 2023 at 3.39pm.

[00:44:06] Sledowski wrote quote, he doesn't give a fuck about a gag end quote. She then attached a screenshot of a series of text messages and at the top the contact is listed as quote Matt H. We'll read the series of messages here.

[00:44:23] Kevin will be reading what Sledowski purports is Hoffman's text and I will be reading Sledowski's texts in response quote. LMFAO explanation point. Exclamation point. Exclamation point. I can't find it. I need you to send it to me again quote LOL one sec end quote.

[00:44:47] Sledowski then attaches a picture of a number of law enforcement officials including seemingly Indiana State police superintendent Doug Carter, Indiana State police lieutenant Jerry Holman and others with what a picture is. It appears to maybe be Ron Logan photoshopped in as if they're all walking together.

[00:45:12] LMFAO that's it exclamation point exclamation point exclamation point exclamation point exclamation point thank you exclamation point OMG that is hysterical quote. Haha, you're welcome. Happy to help in time of critical need laughing emoji.

[00:45:33] Then in a subsequent discord message sent to Paul on September 6 2023 at 2 49 p.m. Sledowski includes a voice note as well as the following screenshot now in this screenshot unlike the earlier screenshot.

[00:45:50] Sledowski has cropped out the name at the top so this one does not say Matt H but again Sledowski is purporting it to be from Matt Hoffman quote.

[00:45:59] If you had to identify like the one or two things whether it be rumor or false info or etc etc that is contributing to your slash y'all's collective stomach knots.

[00:46:11] What would it be end quote quote hmm that the police have some hidden killer evidence that is going to win the case for them they don't my worries that we've had to show out hand somewhat during depositions.

[00:46:27] They know our angle I'm scared to death they would take this lag time between the depots and Frank's motion to fabricate evidence that's my main source because they will have to fabricated.

[00:46:40] That would be the only evidence they would have because right now they don't have any that's my main source of angst Angela I'm not exaggerating they have nothing in quote and again the case for Richard Allen includes him putting himself in the position.

[00:46:57] He was in the crime scene at the time of the murders bullet trace to his gun being discovered near the body of the victims.

[00:47:04] I'm saying that he was wearing clothes similar to bridge guy at the time of the murders and the fact that he has confessed or made incriminating statements to as many as 30 different people implicating himself in these crimes so actually they do have something they actually have quite a lot.

[00:47:22] Yes and frankly I think Kevin and I have discussed on a number of occasions areas where we feel like the prosecution case could be weak or could be vulnerable to attacks from the defense that we feel could be quite significant either a trial or in appeals down the road but.

[00:47:40] In order to exploit those vulnerabilities you need to acknowledge that there is an overall case if I'm going to attack my enemy that is in a castle that's heavily fortified it's better if I identify what points of the castle are weakest so I can get around those and invade the castle then to just act like the castle doesn't exist.

[00:48:00] And my the example I use is I'm a very old man I'm falling apart if I go to the doctor and the doctors is my God Kevin you're in great health.

[00:48:12] The only way you'd be sick would be if someone fabricated evidence that you're sick is that helpful to me or would it be more helpful to me if I go to a doctor and say well Kevin you're doing OK but maybe it help if you lose some weight exercise some more watch your blood pressure change your diet.

[00:48:29] You want you want the doctor who recognizes problems and helps you deal with them and that's a kind of lawyer you want you want a lawyer who recognizes problems and deals with them.

[00:48:40] This is not not about us saying Richard Allen is innocent or guilty but it is a simple reality there is a case there is a case against him and a good defense attorney and a good defense attorneys team would recognize that and work to answer that case instead of just blindly pretending it doesn't exist which is not helpful.

[00:49:00] The road to hell is paved with the affirmations of yes men that's all I'm going to say and that's not heartening to see as especially as we close in on trial.

[00:49:11] So let's recap a little bit before we conclude what have we seen so far and what are our takeaways.

[00:49:17] Well we have reviewed messages between Hoffman and Sadlowski Parsons and Sadlowski claimed to have met with Hoffman while they're in Indiana for their low turnout attempt at a rally for Richard Allen. Parsons talks about getting stuff off of Hoffman's screen.

[00:49:31] Both cranks talk about Hoffman saying he was in danger and that he wanted someone else to know the facts of the case in case something happened to him or other members of the defense team.

[00:49:40] When it comes to that meetup they apparently walked out with enough information to gather truth finder reports on somebody and make maps of phone pings of the crime scene.

[00:49:49] We'll also note that according to our source Paul they immediately knew that we sent an email to Baldwin on November 28th 2023.

[00:49:58] They claim consistently to be in touch with not only Hoffman but the attorneys in the case for months afterwards including doing tasks for them meeting with them unrolling presentations to them.

[00:50:10] This is all very concerning and as far as I can see it there's enough evidence here to strongly indicate that Hoffman did not have any evidence. He breached the protective order by doing this even though he was off the case.

[00:50:24] Now we'll be curious to see what happens next. Will the defense team argue that Sadlowski and Parsons were actually working for them the whole time and that therefore it is fine for them to have seen this and apparently spread on discord and twitter afterwards?

[00:50:36] If that's the case then we would question why this defense team would hire people like this or affiliate people like this with their team.

[00:50:44] These are people who have a history of being abusive and harassing towards others online of spreading misinformation in the case and even in certain instances calling for violence against people they don't like.

[00:50:57] So is it that? Are these actually valued deputized team members or is Hoffman and the wider defense team just continuing to leak? Thanks so much for listening to the murder sheet.

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