The Delphi Murders: First Person: A Juror: Part One

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[00:01:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Content warning. This episode contains discussion of murder, including the murder of children.

[00:01:51] [SPEAKER_00]: We recently had the opportunity to interview someone who served on the jury in the Delphi murders trial.

[00:01:57] [SPEAKER_00]: We asked her about the experience, her impressions of the attorneys and the witnesses and the evidence,

[00:02:03] [SPEAKER_00]: and her views on how the jury came to convict Richard Allen of murdering 14-year-old Liberty German and 13-year-old Abigail Williams.

[00:02:13] [SPEAKER_00]: The Murder Sheet is the first outlet to do an interview with a juror in this case.

[00:02:17] [SPEAKER_01]: You may notice that this episode is a bit more edited than our previous first-person interview series episodes.

[00:02:24] [SPEAKER_01]: The reason for that is we wanted to take care not to include any identifying information about this juror.

[00:02:30] [SPEAKER_01]: This will be the first of two episodes featuring our interview with this juror.

[00:02:34] [SPEAKER_01]: They will be released on the same day, so check out the second part as well.

[00:02:37] [SPEAKER_01]: These episodes are part of our first-person interview series.

[00:02:41] [SPEAKER_01]: We will seek to interview as many of the individuals with first-hand experience in the Delphi case as possible in the coming weeks and months.

[00:02:48] [SPEAKER_01]: If you had a direct role in the case and are open to talking to us in some capacity, email us at murdersheet at gmail.com.

[00:02:55] [SPEAKER_01]: This is part of our ongoing efforts to report on the Delphi murders.

[00:02:58] [SPEAKER_01]: For many years, we have not gotten the opportunity to hear directly from some of the principal figures in this case.

[00:03:03] [SPEAKER_01]: That all changes now.

[00:03:05] [SPEAKER_01]: My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist.

[00:03:08] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

[00:03:10] [SPEAKER_00]: And this is The Murder Sheet.

[00:03:12] [SPEAKER_00]: We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases.

[00:03:19] [SPEAKER_00]: We're The Murder Sheet.

[00:03:21] [SPEAKER_01]: And this is The Delphi Murders. First Person. A Juror. Part One.

[00:03:25] [SPEAKER_02]: With the summons, I was really...

[00:04:12] [SPEAKER_02]: It's weird when we got the postcard sent.

[00:04:16] [SPEAKER_02]: I wish I could remember.

[00:04:17] [SPEAKER_02]: It was pretty early on.

[00:04:19] [SPEAKER_02]: I would say like August-ish even.

[00:04:24] [SPEAKER_02]: And I guess because I'm sure you guys know the trial was supposed to happen before it did.

[00:04:31] [SPEAKER_02]: And they sent out summons for that round too.

[00:04:35] [SPEAKER_02]: So a lot of the people that were on the jury for this trial got summons prior as well.

[00:04:41] [SPEAKER_02]: So they got two.

[00:04:42] [SPEAKER_02]: I myself didn't.

[00:04:43] [SPEAKER_02]: It was the only time.

[00:04:45] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, second time.

[00:04:46] [SPEAKER_02]: And I had never done jury duty, been checked for jury duty.

[00:04:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Nothing of the sort.

[00:04:53] [SPEAKER_02]: So it was pretty crazy.

[00:04:55] [SPEAKER_02]: And I don't know.

[00:04:56] [SPEAKER_02]: I haven't had like that many life experiences.

[00:04:58] [SPEAKER_02]: So it's probably the craziest thing I've ever done in my life at this point.

[00:05:04] [SPEAKER_01]: I bet.

[00:05:05] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm curious.

[00:05:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Did you have a sense as you all were getting called in or this sort of massive pool of people?

[00:05:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Did you have a sense it was for a major case or that it might be for the Delphi case?

[00:05:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Or were you guys kind of in the dark?

[00:05:17] [SPEAKER_02]: So the very first thing with the postcard, you have to like call and just answer like random stupid questions.

[00:05:23] [SPEAKER_02]: And then at that point, you have no idea.

[00:05:25] [SPEAKER_02]: And then after that, we got a packet.

[00:05:29] [SPEAKER_02]: And that was sent maybe like a month after the postcard.

[00:05:36] [SPEAKER_02]: And at this point, I'm like wondering what it is.

[00:05:40] [SPEAKER_02]: And then it had probably, I think, 50 questions.

[00:05:44] [SPEAKER_02]: And at one point, like halfway through, it did mention, you know, you know anything about Richard Allen versus the state of Indiana.

[00:05:53] [SPEAKER_02]: And at that point, I really didn't know anything.

[00:05:57] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not, I wouldn't call myself like an avid true crime person.

[00:06:02] [SPEAKER_02]: I'll do like the documentaries in the evenings a lot.

[00:06:05] [SPEAKER_02]: But with that, I watched so many that like the name Richard Allen did not ring a bell of any sort, even if I like had seen anything in the past.

[00:06:14] [SPEAKER_02]: And then a little bit more through the packet, it talked about during jury selection when they mentioned all of the different names of people that were going to testify.

[00:06:24] [SPEAKER_02]: It essentially had all of those names.

[00:06:26] [SPEAKER_02]: And they asked if you knew anything about any of these people.

[00:06:29] [SPEAKER_02]: And at that point, I remembered Liberty German was such a specific name that it rang a little bit of a bell.

[00:06:36] [SPEAKER_02]: And I was like, oh, yeah, I heard that she's one of the, you know, girls that were murdered.

[00:06:42] [SPEAKER_02]: And that's all I really knew.

[00:06:44] [SPEAKER_02]: And then by the very last question got me the most was, do you know anything about Odinism and then all of those different things?

[00:06:57] [SPEAKER_02]: So I, you know, knew nothing at this point.

[00:07:01] [SPEAKER_02]: So I was wondering like, oh, there must be something like crazy with this case going on.

[00:07:08] [SPEAKER_02]: And that's all I really knew.

[00:07:09] [SPEAKER_02]: So I expected, I guess, to find more once the trial happened, obviously.

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[00:08:40] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm a history major.

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[00:11:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Let's go and do that out.

[00:11:02] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm curious.

[00:11:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Can you talk us through the day where you sort of come in and this whole kind of chaotic process is going on

[00:11:09] [SPEAKER_01]: as they're kind of bringing all of you guys through this system and putting you through the jury selection process?

[00:11:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.

[00:11:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.

[00:11:19] [SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, we sent the packet in.

[00:11:21] [SPEAKER_02]: Once I sent the packet in, I didn't hear a thing for a while.

[00:11:24] [SPEAKER_02]: So I kind of just thought, like, they went with other people, whatever.

[00:11:29] [SPEAKER_02]: And so I'm not the best with checking my mail.

[00:11:32] [SPEAKER_02]: So it might have been sent out earlier from when I saw it.

[00:11:35] [SPEAKER_02]: But I saw the paper to show up maybe Thursday or Friday to come in on Monday.

[00:11:42] [SPEAKER_02]: So I was like, oh, my gosh.

[00:11:43] [SPEAKER_02]: And then once I saw that, I saw it.

[00:11:47] [SPEAKER_02]: I just for some reason knew I was going to get picked.

[00:11:49] [SPEAKER_02]: I can't explain it.

[00:11:50] [SPEAKER_02]: I just knew.

[00:11:52] [SPEAKER_02]: And when I found out of the sequester, I actually had a family member tell me because they sent us something not to, you know, watch media or anything like that.

[00:12:02] [SPEAKER_02]: So I wasn't watching the news or anything.

[00:12:05] [SPEAKER_02]: I guess it came out that we're going to be sequestered.

[00:12:08] [SPEAKER_02]: And I was like, what does that entail?

[00:12:09] [SPEAKER_02]: So I Google it and it says, yeah, you get pretty much sipped off when you get chosen at jury selection.

[00:12:16] [SPEAKER_02]: So I thought going in that they're just going to and they're like, well, you'll be able to they'll they'll take you home and they'll give you a little bit to pack your things or whatever.

[00:12:25] [SPEAKER_02]: So I I can't just take an hour to pack.

[00:12:29] [SPEAKER_02]: It takes me a long time.

[00:12:30] [SPEAKER_02]: And I have a million bags.

[00:12:32] [SPEAKER_02]: So I was like, I'm packing now.

[00:12:34] [SPEAKER_02]: So I packed everything I needed before I even went in on Monday because I had a feeling and I wanted to just be prepared and take.

[00:12:42] [SPEAKER_01]: What's interesting is that there was one self-proclaimed psychic in the pool of prospective jurors.

[00:12:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Shockingly, he did not get called.

[00:12:49] [SPEAKER_01]: But it sounds like this juror made a very apt prediction herself.

[00:12:53] [SPEAKER_01]: We asked this juror if she had heard from other jurors about the gentleman who said he had psychic powers.

[00:12:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, we all laugh.

[00:13:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Now we know if we need to get out of jury duty what to say.

[00:13:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Gosh, I so so you're there.

[00:13:06] [SPEAKER_01]: You kind of have a feeling you're going to get picked.

[00:13:07] [SPEAKER_02]: So kind of backing up, they bring you and you got to like check in and then you sit at the first floor and all these chairs and you watch a video.

[00:13:16] [SPEAKER_02]: And they just like explain jury duty.

[00:13:18] [SPEAKER_02]: And then they give you a number.

[00:13:22] [SPEAKER_02]: And McLean did the whole I do remember the whole snowman question thing about, you know, if you came home and he saw a puddle on the ground, what would you think?

[00:13:37] [SPEAKER_02]: And.

[00:13:39] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, if you came home and saw coal and a puddle on the ground, what would you think?

[00:13:43] [SPEAKER_02]: And then there was a carrot on the ground, you know, that whole thing.

[00:13:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah.

[00:13:47] [SPEAKER_01]: It took me a really long time to get it to be honest.

[00:13:50] [SPEAKER_02]: I must be.

[00:13:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I didn't catch on.

[00:13:53] [SPEAKER_02]: I didn't.

[00:13:54] [SPEAKER_02]: And I was I was so stressed.

[00:13:55] [SPEAKER_02]: I think a lot of us were just so like didn't know what to expect.

[00:13:59] [SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, I'm never doing it before either.

[00:14:03] [SPEAKER_02]: And then once we learned that it's just like huge case, like that kind of adds something to it, too.

[00:14:09] [SPEAKER_02]: And it's an accounting movie.

[00:14:11] [SPEAKER_02]: Don't really know.

[00:14:13] [SPEAKER_02]: So, yeah, it was pretty crazy.

[00:14:15] [SPEAKER_00]: This juror got to witness some of the voir dire tactics from the various attorneys.

[00:14:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Prospective jurors would crowd into one side of the gallery and have the opportunity to observe the lawyers as they questioned each panel.

[00:14:27] [SPEAKER_00]: The moments that stood out in her mind focused on Carroll County Prosecutor Nicholas McClelland, who handled all the prosecution rounds, and lead defense lawyer Bradley Rosie, who had some memorable moments throughout the jury selection process.

[00:14:42] [SPEAKER_02]: I thought it was funny where Rosie came with explaining reasonable doubt.

[00:14:47] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think it was just all the different types of evidence, maybe.

[00:14:51] [SPEAKER_02]: But the little cards that he held up and he's like, let me dump it down for you.

[00:15:02] [SPEAKER_02]: I can't believe that.

[00:15:04] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, we all started on the wrong foot with Rosie, I think.

[00:15:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, what did you make of Rosie?

[00:15:10] [SPEAKER_01]: And then what did you make of McClelland?

[00:15:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I thought McClelland made the nervousness kind of feel comfortable.

[00:15:20] [SPEAKER_02]: And you said it best when you guys were talking about it.

[00:15:23] [SPEAKER_02]: He really just kind of like gets on your level and makes you feel comfortable.

[00:15:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Which I think is just realizing that this is something really stressful for just like, you know, a normal person that just has no idea what's, you know, going to happen.

[00:15:38] [SPEAKER_02]: Which really gives you like an element of trust, especially when we don't know anyone.

[00:15:43] [SPEAKER_02]: And Rosie, on the other hand, was very opposite of that, I think.

[00:15:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Kind of almost felt like he played on the nervousness.

[00:15:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Like, I felt almost like it was an interrogation.

[00:15:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, very different between the two, for sure.

[00:16:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's so interesting, the different approaches.

[00:16:03] [SPEAKER_01]: And I do wonder if there's any, if there's any strategy to it.

[00:16:08] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I, Kevin probably would know better, but.

[00:16:09] [SPEAKER_01]: And throughout this whole process, I'm very much like the trying to play devil's advocate.

[00:16:15] [SPEAKER_02]: And again, this is just from my experience, but people did express to me, you know, negative feelings about the defense.

[00:16:23] [SPEAKER_02]: And I was always telling them thinking like, really more so just thinking, because I didn't really want to tell anyone anything.

[00:16:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Just, it's really weird.

[00:16:34] [SPEAKER_02]: You're just secluded and you're by yourself.

[00:16:35] [SPEAKER_02]: You don't really know anyone.

[00:16:36] [SPEAKER_02]: You don't really, it's like Survivor almost.

[00:16:38] [SPEAKER_02]: We joke a lot of times.

[00:16:39] [SPEAKER_02]: Like, who are we going to vote off the island?

[00:16:41] [SPEAKER_02]: But I, I was always playing devil's advocate.

[00:16:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Like, you know, that's their job.

[00:16:45] [SPEAKER_02]: They're supposed to, like, not necessarily be mean to people, but make them say the wrong thing and mess them up.

[00:16:54] [SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, they're supposed to be the bad cop, essentially.

[00:16:58] [SPEAKER_00]: People were saying negative things about the defense during the process?

[00:17:01] [SPEAKER_02]: I think it was more just, like, general things of, like, we would laugh a lot about, like, mannerisms of the different people.

[00:17:11] [SPEAKER_02]: And on both sides, really, on that.

[00:17:14] [SPEAKER_02]: But, yeah, just the, about being hard on people.

[00:17:19] [SPEAKER_02]: And another thing, like, a lot of people didn't like was the interrogation videos.

[00:17:25] [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm sure we'll get into that for sure when we talk about deliberations and things.

[00:17:29] [SPEAKER_02]: But, like I said, it went both ways for sure of things we were unhappy with.

[00:17:35] [SPEAKER_02]: But we did feel the defense a lot of times, like, what's going on kind of thing.

[00:17:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Like, is this normal?

[00:17:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Like, this seems pretty crazy.

[00:17:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Like those sitting in the gallery, the jurors also got to study the mannerisms of the attorneys firsthand.

[00:17:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Only they had a better view from the jury box.

[00:17:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Rosie would do, like, a leaning forward gesture all the time.

[00:17:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Like, I'm doing it right now.

[00:17:59] [SPEAKER_02]: But when you're staring at people all day, you take in a lot of, like, you know, mannerisms, but, like, body language and things like that.

[00:18:09] [SPEAKER_02]: What other ones of those did you notice?

[00:18:11] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm curious.

[00:18:11] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, my gosh.

[00:18:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Luttrell or I say it wrong, too.

[00:18:18] [SPEAKER_02]: You're not the only one, Kevin.

[00:18:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you.

[00:18:20] [SPEAKER_02]: I appreciate that.

[00:18:23] [SPEAKER_02]: But he would do the hands on his chest and the, like, the palms almost opening out.

[00:18:32] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't even know how to explain it in words.

[00:18:35] [SPEAKER_02]: He would, like, palms up, like, kind of close to his chest.

[00:18:39] [SPEAKER_02]: And, like, as if you're, like, have a small, like, you're cupping your hands, like, if you have water in it or something.

[00:18:45] [SPEAKER_02]: He would, like, do that all the time.

[00:18:49] [SPEAKER_02]: I wish I could remember more.

[00:18:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Those little things like that, like, are things that I was like, you know, I won't forget.

[00:18:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Did you notice any of that from Richard Allen himself as he was sort of in the courtroom?

[00:19:01] [SPEAKER_02]: So, the eyes kind of, that's something I noticed from even, like, Jerry Selex.

[00:19:07] [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm like, wow.

[00:19:08] [SPEAKER_02]: His eyes are very, I don't even know what word to use.

[00:19:13] [SPEAKER_02]: Different, I guess.

[00:19:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Surprising.

[00:19:16] [SPEAKER_02]: But, you know, that to me is, like, sometimes people, he just has, like, some weird eyes.

[00:19:25] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't think that makes him, you know, a murderer.

[00:19:28] [SPEAKER_02]: So, I would kind of, like, refrain from looking over there, I guess.

[00:19:34] [SPEAKER_02]: Because any time we made eye contact, I would just look away really fast.

[00:19:38] [SPEAKER_02]: And a couple of the other jurors, they would talk about how he's always staring, like, at us.

[00:19:44] [SPEAKER_02]: And so, they would start staring back and, like, not looking away until he did.

[00:19:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Me, personally, I would not really look a whole lot of times.

[00:19:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:19:56] [SPEAKER_01]: This is, yeah.

[00:19:58] [SPEAKER_01]: When you guys were on break, there were a couple times where he'd be staring at people in the gallery.

[00:20:02] [SPEAKER_01]: But, obviously, yeah, it was creepy.

[00:20:05] [SPEAKER_01]: He was pointing at us at one point.

[00:20:07] [SPEAKER_01]: I know he was doing stuff with other people.

[00:20:09] [SPEAKER_01]: That was actually pretty commonplace.

[00:20:11] [SPEAKER_01]: But we couldn't see what you guys saw.

[00:20:13] [SPEAKER_01]: So, we were always really curious.

[00:20:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Like, maybe he's acting more normal to them.

[00:20:18] [SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[00:20:19] [SPEAKER_02]: And I, like, the staring.

[00:20:21] [SPEAKER_02]: Because I thought, too, like, you know, I stare off even.

[00:20:24] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, it's long days and whatnot.

[00:20:26] [SPEAKER_02]: There would be times where, you know, there were a couple times we both looked at each other and he smiled.

[00:20:32] [SPEAKER_02]: And it was really hard.

[00:20:35] [SPEAKER_02]: I think for me especially than a lot of others.

[00:20:41] [SPEAKER_02]: But looking him in the eye, knowing, like, the possible outcome of all of it.

[00:20:46] [SPEAKER_02]: Like, it was just really hard for me to, like, even be in the room with him every day.

[00:20:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.

[00:20:51] [SPEAKER_01]: I want to go back to, you know, you get selected.

[00:20:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Then what happens?

[00:20:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Sure.

[00:20:58] [SPEAKER_02]: They bring you into, like, a little room.

[00:21:02] [SPEAKER_02]: And essentially, like, tell you just, like, the basics of anything you would, like, need to know before we tip off.

[00:21:08] [SPEAKER_02]: So, a couple people were really upset once they were in the room and they found out they're going to be a juror and that we're getting sequestered.

[00:21:16] [SPEAKER_02]: I guess they didn't realize from what Ted's goal said and things like that.

[00:21:20] [SPEAKER_02]: So, it was like hitting them in that room.

[00:21:23] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm like, I'm going through a bathroom remodel and what am I going to do?

[00:21:27] [SPEAKER_02]: And kind of like the reality of we're leaving our homes for a while.

[00:21:32] [SPEAKER_02]: We got torn on Thursday morning.

[00:21:34] [SPEAKER_02]: We came back with our bag.

[00:21:36] [SPEAKER_02]: We had to walk through the courthouse.

[00:21:38] [SPEAKER_02]: And then they went through all of our stuff.

[00:21:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Make sure you don't have anything we're not supposed to.

[00:21:46] [SPEAKER_02]: It was funny.

[00:21:47] [SPEAKER_02]: I brought a Polaroid camera because I didn't see anything, like, that said we couldn't have one.

[00:21:53] [SPEAKER_02]: And it didn't, like, you know, get on the internet or anything.

[00:21:55] [SPEAKER_02]: So, I figured it was okay.

[00:21:58] [SPEAKER_02]: And Jason said, the bailiff said, well, that's the first no one's ever brought one of those before.

[00:22:04] [SPEAKER_02]: I was like, well, I'm glad I could be the first.

[00:22:07] [SPEAKER_02]: But, yeah, they definitely confiscated that.

[00:22:10] [SPEAKER_02]: And they gave it back to me the day we left.

[00:22:13] [SPEAKER_02]: So, anyways, yeah, they go through our stuff.

[00:22:15] [SPEAKER_02]: And then we went and got pulling in.

[00:22:17] [SPEAKER_02]: And this was at, like, 9 a.m.

[00:22:19] [SPEAKER_02]: We arrived.

[00:22:19] [SPEAKER_02]: And then we got on a tour bus thing.

[00:22:25] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.

[00:22:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Coach, whatever.

[00:22:26] [SPEAKER_02]: And then went to Delphi.

[00:22:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Or Lafayette, I guess, is where we stayed.

[00:22:30] [SPEAKER_01]: I imagine you guys spend a lot of time with those bailiffs.

[00:22:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah.

[00:22:34] [SPEAKER_01]: What were they like?

[00:22:35] [SPEAKER_02]: The bailiffs were seriously so amazing.

[00:22:38] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, everyone was.

[00:22:39] [SPEAKER_02]: And that's a point I really wanted to put is, like, you know, you think a random group of people from the county you're in, like, completely random.

[00:22:49] [SPEAKER_02]: That's how it's supposed to be.

[00:22:50] [SPEAKER_02]: So, you never know what you can get.

[00:22:52] [SPEAKER_02]: And we had a really, really great group of people.

[00:22:55] [SPEAKER_02]: And I don't think it would have went so well without all of them.

[00:22:57] [SPEAKER_02]: So, I think everyone in the trial was lucky to have, you know, the great people we had because I don't think it would have went as smoothly.

[00:23:09] [SPEAKER_02]: But Jason.

[00:23:10] [SPEAKER_02]: And then there's Jamal.

[00:23:13] [SPEAKER_02]: And then we had Leslie, who was our third bailiff.

[00:23:18] [SPEAKER_02]: So, I think they have to have a female just for, like, all of the girl stuff.

[00:23:23] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not really sure.

[00:23:24] [SPEAKER_02]: And then Leslie, her kind of thing that she did was she made sure we were all fed.

[00:23:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Every day she brought us our lunch to the courthouse.

[00:23:32] [SPEAKER_02]: And then she would bring us our dinner.

[00:23:35] [SPEAKER_02]: And she did pretty much everything behind the scenes.

[00:23:38] [SPEAKER_02]: She's amazing.

[00:23:40] [SPEAKER_02]: And then, yeah, Jeremy and Jason, they drove the vans in the morning.

[00:23:45] [SPEAKER_02]: Each of us, we split up in vans.

[00:23:48] [SPEAKER_02]: And then they would drive us in the morning and home.

[00:23:51] [SPEAKER_02]: And that's pretty much it.

[00:23:53] [SPEAKER_02]: They would just keep us alive.

[00:23:55] [SPEAKER_02]: And then something I thought was really interesting was we had a system of we would order groceries.

[00:24:06] [SPEAKER_02]: They would, so we could make whatever we want, but we would always have dinner or whatnot.

[00:24:10] [SPEAKER_02]: We would write these request forms so we could just fill out anything under the sun that we wanted.

[00:24:16] [SPEAKER_02]: We would just write it down and then just submit the paper forms.

[00:24:20] [SPEAKER_02]: And then it would show up later that day.

[00:24:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Leslie would go shopping pretty much every single day for whatever we needed.

[00:24:28] [SPEAKER_02]: And then we would do the same for dinners.

[00:24:29] [SPEAKER_02]: We would just, like, in one for food.

[00:24:31] [SPEAKER_02]: She would plan ahead where we're eating.

[00:24:33] [SPEAKER_02]: And then we had these binders that had all of the different menus to the restaurants because, of course, we don't have internet access.

[00:24:40] [SPEAKER_02]: And then she printed those off so we could pick what we wanted and we would write it down.

[00:24:45] [SPEAKER_02]: And then it would be there.

[00:24:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Like, you don't think about how elaborate something like just planning dinner for all those food people.

[00:24:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, my God.

[00:24:52] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, but it's so elaborate.

[00:24:54] [SPEAKER_01]: What kind of places would they get you guys food from?

[00:24:56] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm assuming you guys would eat in the hotel.

[00:24:58] [SPEAKER_02]: The way it was planned at first was every other night we would go out to dinner and then eat in every other.

[00:25:05] [SPEAKER_02]: And that quickly we changed because of how exhausted we were every single day.

[00:25:10] [SPEAKER_02]: And going out with all the people, with all, we had, at least if we were going somewhere, probably five cops with us.

[00:25:19] [SPEAKER_02]: And then at the hotel there was probably 10 to 20 at all times.

[00:25:24] [SPEAKER_02]: And it was a lot to go places and go in public.

[00:25:29] [SPEAKER_02]: So we decided we just want to eat at the hotel every night because that was just too much.

[00:25:34] [SPEAKER_02]: And the places we would go for dinner, we did Longhorn.

[00:25:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Let me think.

[00:25:41] [SPEAKER_02]: There's a place around there called Hayes River or something like that.

[00:25:47] [SPEAKER_02]: It's like a public house.

[00:25:49] [SPEAKER_02]: I remember more of the lunches for some reason.

[00:25:51] [SPEAKER_02]: The lunches were just like McAllister.

[00:25:53] [SPEAKER_02]: There was that Stonehouse Restaurant, Panera, all that stuff.

[00:25:58] [SPEAKER_02]: So pretty just generic at Cheddar.

[00:26:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I was wondering, during the trial, were you aware of the level of media attention this was receiving?

[00:26:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes and no.

[00:26:09] [SPEAKER_02]: They kind of expressed that when we were sequestered at the beginning, just that there's a lot of coverage about it.

[00:26:19] [SPEAKER_02]: But one day, I guess to answer your question fully, they downplayed it a lot.

[00:26:25] [SPEAKER_02]: I think they didn't want us to worry too much.

[00:26:29] [SPEAKER_02]: But the security detail and all of that, I'm like, this seems just crazy.

[00:26:34] [SPEAKER_02]: We couldn't even go on the elevators to the bottom floor without cops with us.

[00:26:40] [SPEAKER_02]: We couldn't have anyone else in the elevator with us.

[00:26:43] [SPEAKER_02]: We couldn't talk to anyone else.

[00:26:46] [SPEAKER_02]: It was very serious.

[00:26:48] [SPEAKER_02]: But on the way home from the courthouse one day, we all of a sudden started going really, really fast.

[00:26:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Like I'm talking like 90 miles per hour.

[00:26:58] [SPEAKER_02]: And we're like, what the heck?

[00:27:01] [SPEAKER_02]: And we just didn't know what happened.

[00:27:05] [SPEAKER_02]: Like they don't tell us really anything.

[00:27:06] [SPEAKER_02]: You can just tell that there's like a stressful something going on.

[00:27:11] [SPEAKER_02]: And afterwards, they end up telling us this was like, because it wasn't long before the end of the trial.

[00:27:18] [SPEAKER_02]: But they told us at the end that it was some person when so and Jason and Jeremy are bailiffs.

[00:27:27] [SPEAKER_02]: They didn't have what you call it, like radios to like talk back and forth.

[00:27:31] [SPEAKER_02]: They didn't know why we were going that fast at the time.

[00:27:34] [SPEAKER_02]: They just go however fast the cop in front of them goes and they were speeding.

[00:27:39] [SPEAKER_02]: So they're following them.

[00:27:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, what happened was they saw someone next to us.

[00:27:43] [SPEAKER_02]: They said they were one of the cops that someone was trying to take pictures into our van.

[00:27:49] [SPEAKER_02]: So they pulled that person over and took her phone and took it to Judge Goal.

[00:27:56] [SPEAKER_02]: So she's on the side of the highway.

[00:27:58] [SPEAKER_02]: They keep her there, take her phone to Judge Goal.

[00:28:01] [SPEAKER_02]: Judge Goal looks through it, finds that she was just, she had goes to school at IU

[00:28:11] [SPEAKER_02]: and had just like been traveling through Delphi and saw, you know, our vans and all the cops.

[00:28:17] [SPEAKER_02]: She was like, what is that?

[00:28:18] [SPEAKER_02]: And then like looked it up and saw what it was and was just telling her friends.

[00:28:21] [SPEAKER_02]: But she didn't have like videos of us or anything.

[00:28:24] [SPEAKER_02]: So they brought her phone back to her on the highway and let her go after that.

[00:28:29] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh my God.

[00:28:30] [SPEAKER_02]: So anytime it was like, you know, like even a somewhat stressful situation, they would just

[00:28:36] [SPEAKER_02]: get us out of there really fast.

[00:28:39] [SPEAKER_02]: So that kind of told me, you know, it's kind of bigger than I think or know.

[00:28:44] [SPEAKER_02]: And then once we finished and I did my own research, I'm like, oh, okay.

[00:28:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Like everyone knows about it.

[00:28:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Like we're not just, you know, not just Indiana people, you know.

[00:28:55] [SPEAKER_01]: So in terms of your typical day, you guys were there a lot of days, obviously.

[00:29:01] [SPEAKER_01]: What, can you walk us through almost like a day in the life of a juror during this case?

[00:29:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Obviously it was a little bit different on Saturdays because it was a half day and then

[00:29:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Sundays we all had off.

[00:29:10] [SPEAKER_01]: But, but what was it like typically for you guys?

[00:29:13] [SPEAKER_02]: Sure.

[00:29:13] [SPEAKER_02]: Um, so we all would meet, we have this like room that everyone could use at the hotel that

[00:29:21] [SPEAKER_02]: we would have meetings in.

[00:29:23] [SPEAKER_02]: That's where we met in the morning.

[00:29:24] [SPEAKER_02]: So we had to be there at 8am and then we would drive to the courthouse and get there about

[00:29:32] [SPEAKER_02]: usually like 830, walk up those treacherous marble stairs.

[00:29:37] [SPEAKER_02]: And again, it would start, you know, nine o'clock or thereafter, depending on the housekeeping

[00:29:45] [SPEAKER_02]: responsibilities.

[00:29:46] [SPEAKER_02]: From there, you know, we would have our first session and then a break.

[00:29:52] [SPEAKER_02]: Um, and then our breaks really were just all of us having, being able to use the bathroom.

[00:30:02] [SPEAKER_02]: We only had, uh, two bathrooms to use.

[00:30:06] [SPEAKER_02]: So, um, usually everyone had to go in between our breaks.

[00:30:11] [SPEAKER_02]: So that's pretty much what we were doing.

[00:30:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Um, we weren't allowed to talk about anything unless everyone was present.

[00:30:17] [SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, in short breaks, we usually didn't talk about anything just because it was hard

[00:30:21] [SPEAKER_02]: to get us all in the same room while everyone was using the restroom.

[00:30:25] [SPEAKER_02]: So that would be the morning break.

[00:30:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Um, and then once of course, after that.

[00:30:31] [SPEAKER_02]: And usually if we talked, we would do it then.

[00:30:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Um, and again, if everyone was present, um, there was like two little separate rooms in

[00:30:41] [SPEAKER_02]: a divider.

[00:30:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Um, so people could go to either room if they wanted, you know, if we were on the same room,

[00:30:47] [SPEAKER_02]: sometimes we'd talk.

[00:30:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Sometimes we just kind of didn't really feel like it.

[00:30:51] [SPEAKER_02]: It was kind of a lot, a lot of the time.

[00:30:52] [SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, we're listening to it all day and really there's not a whole lot to talk

[00:30:58] [SPEAKER_02]: about specifically until you kind of hear it all anyway.

[00:31:02] [SPEAKER_02]: Um, so I wouldn't even say we did a whole lot of talking about it until fully at the end,

[00:31:09] [SPEAKER_02]: maybe more, a little closer to the end too.

[00:31:12] [SPEAKER_02]: And then evening break.

[00:31:14] [SPEAKER_02]: And again, um, as you know, sometimes we would run over and not have those breaks,

[00:31:19] [SPEAKER_02]: things like that.

[00:31:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Um, and then, yeah.

[00:31:22] [SPEAKER_02]: And then we would leave at the end of the day, pretty much just grab our stuff from the

[00:31:27] [SPEAKER_02]: jury room, go back down the stairs.

[00:31:30] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if you saw the kind of like tent thing they had, they had set up that we'd

[00:31:34] [SPEAKER_02]: go in and out of into the vans.

[00:31:36] [SPEAKER_02]: They have the van right up and they'd like the sliding door.

[00:31:39] [SPEAKER_02]: And you, you mentioned the guys that wore the orange and black for Halloween, those

[00:31:46] [SPEAKER_02]: officers that kind of did the transportation of Richard Allen, I believe.

[00:31:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Um, they did that for us too.

[00:31:52] [SPEAKER_02]: They would hold up the, um, the tent.

[00:31:55] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think it was just so no one could get pictures of us or something.

[00:32:00] [SPEAKER_03]: That, that makes sense.

[00:32:01] [SPEAKER_02]: So that's how we would kind of load up and get out too.

[00:32:05] [SPEAKER_02]: Um, yeah.

[00:32:06] [SPEAKER_02]: And then back to the hotel and then we would have our evening.

[00:32:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Were you guys, did you become a close knit group, uh, by the end of this?

[00:32:18] [SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.

[00:32:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:32:20] [SPEAKER_02]: At least the way I feel again, I can't speak for anyone else, but, um, yeah, I feel like

[00:32:25] [SPEAKER_02]: going through something like that and then not having, you know, anyone, it, it kind of

[00:32:31] [SPEAKER_02]: brings you close to people.

[00:32:33] [SPEAKER_02]: And I was just, like I said, it was pretty hard on me.

[00:32:36] [SPEAKER_02]: So towards the end, I was kind of a mess.

[00:32:38] [SPEAKER_02]: So everyone really like stepped up and made sure, you know, everyone else was okay.

[00:32:44] [SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, we all took care of each other for sure.

[00:32:47] [SPEAKER_01]: That's really nice.

[00:32:48] [SPEAKER_01]: What were your impressions of the other people in the group?

[00:32:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Very, very, very smart people.

[00:32:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Like, and like I said, they're all like so random, but not one person was I like, I cannot

[00:33:03] [SPEAKER_02]: deal with this person or I don't like this person, which I think would genuinely be pretty

[00:33:08] [SPEAKER_02]: difficult.

[00:33:09] [SPEAKER_02]: Not that I'm like, I don't like anyone, but I think it would be pretty difficult just finding

[00:33:13] [SPEAKER_02]: a bunch of random people and not even one being a dud.

[00:33:17] [SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, everyone was really great.

[00:33:20] [SPEAKER_02]: And a lot of them have like done jury duty before.

[00:33:23] [SPEAKER_02]: So they weren't completely going in blind.

[00:33:26] [SPEAKER_02]: But even an experience like this, like no one's done anything like that.

[00:33:30] [SPEAKER_01]: So.

[00:33:31] [SPEAKER_01]: No, that makes sense.

[00:33:32] [SPEAKER_01]: It's definitely a different kind of trial than your typical one.

[00:33:35] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, Sundays, I know you guys got to do activities and sort of see your family a

[00:33:39] [SPEAKER_01]: bit.

[00:33:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Can you tell us about that?

[00:33:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:33:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that was really cool.

[00:33:44] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, and you know how like on Saturdays we'd have half day of court and then the other

[00:33:50] [SPEAKER_02]: half of the day we would do an activity.

[00:33:53] [SPEAKER_02]: So it was either bowling or movie theater.

[00:33:57] [SPEAKER_02]: So we did bowling twice, maybe three times.

[00:34:02] [SPEAKER_02]: We did bowling.

[00:34:03] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, the final weekend too.

[00:34:05] [SPEAKER_02]: We did bowling three times and then we went to the movie theater once and we saw Beetlejuice.

[00:34:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Beetlejuice.

[00:34:11] [SPEAKER_02]: And that was really good just to like get out.

[00:34:14] [SPEAKER_02]: We were all talking like the bowling thing's funny because we felt like we like it's all

[00:34:17] [SPEAKER_02]: we did outside of court.

[00:34:19] [SPEAKER_02]: So we're all going to do a bowling week.

[00:34:24] [SPEAKER_02]: But then, yeah.

[00:34:25] [SPEAKER_02]: So then that's Saturday night.

[00:34:27] [SPEAKER_02]: And then, yeah, Sundays from one to five, our family members could come and we would just

[00:34:34] [SPEAKER_02]: essentially like hang out in the lobby.

[00:34:37] [SPEAKER_02]: And again, there's like 10 to 20 police officers around, even more in the parking lot that's in

[00:34:44] [SPEAKER_02]: their cars.

[00:34:45] [SPEAKER_02]: Keeping us safe, but also making sure like everything goes the way it's supposed to as well.

[00:34:50] [SPEAKER_02]: We would do like a cookout.

[00:34:52] [SPEAKER_02]: Our hotel has like girls outside.

[00:34:54] [SPEAKER_02]: So Jason would grill sometimes or we would like cater Subway or pizza, things like that.

[00:35:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Wow.

[00:35:01] [SPEAKER_01]: That's OK.

[00:35:02] [SPEAKER_01]: So that's I mean, yeah, I was always so I'm like, what is their activity?

[00:35:04] [SPEAKER_01]: So I think that.

[00:35:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think that's neat.

[00:35:08] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to ask you about some of the different parties in the case and kind of what your impressions

[00:35:12] [SPEAKER_01]: and what maybe sort of what you got the sense of the group's impressions of them were.

[00:35:16] [SPEAKER_01]: And I guess starting off one would be the one who probably kind of addressed you guys

[00:35:20] [SPEAKER_01]: directly the most.

[00:35:21] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's Judge Gull.

[00:35:23] [SPEAKER_02]: I think that he is a very impressive woman.

[00:35:28] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.

[00:35:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Every ever since.

[00:35:29] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, in the way you look at it, does at least me like, wow, like she must be.

[00:35:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Really like educated.

[00:35:37] [SPEAKER_02]: And just and I I love seeing women and like a high role.

[00:35:41] [SPEAKER_02]: So I always I thought that was really cool from the beginning.

[00:35:44] [SPEAKER_02]: And then from my experience from the kit from the trial, I again, once I heard the podcast,

[00:35:52] [SPEAKER_02]: like I totally get where you guys are coming from, from from like a media standpoint of wanting

[00:35:57] [SPEAKER_02]: to because I feel the same way.

[00:36:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Like, I'm so glad that you guys were able to be there the amount of times you were and

[00:36:05] [SPEAKER_02]: get the correct message of what actually happened in court through.

[00:36:09] [SPEAKER_02]: True.

[00:36:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Um, so I totally get your side.

[00:36:12] [SPEAKER_02]: But as a juror, I didn't, you know, experience any of that.

[00:36:15] [SPEAKER_02]: And I just thought and think that she.

[00:36:19] [SPEAKER_02]: She just like a boss, like, um, and did just did a really good job.

[00:36:25] [SPEAKER_02]: I think she commands a room.

[00:36:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[00:36:28] [SPEAKER_01]: And and I think we tried to stress on the show that while we still are certainly salty

[00:36:32] [SPEAKER_01]: to a certain degree about the media stuff, I think she she certainly she guided the case

[00:36:38] [SPEAKER_01]: legally throughout a lot of minefields throughout the whole process.

[00:36:41] [SPEAKER_01]: And I was impressed with that.

[00:36:42] [SPEAKER_01]: And also she was so nice.

[00:36:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Like you could tell when she was addressing you guys like she was so warm and kind of.

[00:36:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, my God.

[00:36:48] [SPEAKER_01]: It was really nice.

[00:36:49] [SPEAKER_01]: And like, I would just I was curious.

[00:36:51] [SPEAKER_01]: You kind of noticed that, too.

[00:36:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:36:53] [SPEAKER_02]: And at the after the after the trial, we she she always debriefed the jury.

[00:37:00] [SPEAKER_02]: So we got to spend some time with her and we're allowed to ask any questions we want to.

[00:37:05] [SPEAKER_02]: We just got to talk to her and actually spend normal time with her.

[00:37:09] [SPEAKER_02]: That's not just, you know, in court.

[00:37:11] [SPEAKER_02]: So that was really cool, too.

[00:37:12] [SPEAKER_02]: What was she like during that?

[00:37:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Very chill, like not at all as I was expecting.

[00:37:17] [SPEAKER_02]: She's very chill and cool and relaxed and just go with the flow and not at all like you see her as it does.

[00:37:27] [SPEAKER_01]: And then I'm curious, what were your impressions of the three attorneys from the prosecution?

[00:37:33] [SPEAKER_01]: So I guess we can start off with McClellan.

[00:37:35] [SPEAKER_01]: We talked a bit about him during voir dire, but during trial.

[00:37:38] [SPEAKER_02]: I was very, very impressed with McClellan.

[00:37:40] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think he did a really, really good job.

[00:37:44] [SPEAKER_02]: And that's off of someone that, you know, knows nothing about trials to this point.

[00:37:49] [SPEAKER_02]: So but knowing nothing, I think he and I guess that's what really matters because I was a juror.

[00:37:57] [SPEAKER_02]: But like, I think he I kind of touched on that.

[00:38:02] [SPEAKER_02]: He just made me feel comfortable, very professional.

[00:38:06] [SPEAKER_02]: I think that was something that kind of lacked on the other side.

[00:38:09] [SPEAKER_02]: Like I felt that he always kind of had a plan, was always thoroughly prepared.

[00:38:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Just like a high level professional.

[00:38:20] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.

[00:38:21] [SPEAKER_02]: That's kind of what you'd expect from a lawyer.

[00:38:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[00:38:24] [SPEAKER_01]: And then I guess the next one would be Stacey Deiner on the prosecution side.

[00:38:29] [SPEAKER_02]: I really like Stacey Deiner.

[00:38:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, and something for me, I I really like fashion.

[00:38:35] [SPEAKER_02]: So it was really cool for me to look at everyone's outfits every day.

[00:38:39] [SPEAKER_02]: And that was like something really cool about being in a courthouse for some reason.

[00:38:43] [SPEAKER_02]: But he had the best outfit for sure.

[00:38:47] [SPEAKER_02]: That was something I really liked about Stacey Deiner.

[00:38:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Why are we like the same person?

[00:38:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Because I was always saying the same thing.

[00:38:53] [SPEAKER_01]: I kept telling Kevin, I'm like, she looks like one of the women from Law and Order.

[00:38:57] [SPEAKER_01]: So she's like, oh, it's very well put together.

[00:38:58] [SPEAKER_01]: And she didn't wear the same outfit twice, not once.

[00:39:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Which is pretty impressive.

[00:39:05] [SPEAKER_01]: I agree.

[00:39:05] [SPEAKER_01]: And I cut you off.

[00:39:06] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm so sorry.

[00:39:07] [SPEAKER_01]: What else were you going to say about Stacey Deiner?

[00:39:08] [SPEAKER_01]: No.

[00:39:09] [SPEAKER_02]: I didn't know this at the beginning when I didn't know that they like have plans who's

[00:39:14] [SPEAKER_02]: going to cross and who's going to ask who the questions.

[00:39:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Like I didn't know.

[00:39:19] [SPEAKER_02]: They already knew who was going to talk to who.

[00:39:22] [SPEAKER_02]: And it's like strategy.

[00:39:23] [SPEAKER_02]: But I realized that a little bit as it went of like, oh, well, she's a great person to

[00:39:29] [SPEAKER_02]: question this witness and examine the witness, whatever.

[00:39:34] [SPEAKER_02]: And I feel like she did a really good job in her role as being.

[00:39:40] [SPEAKER_02]: She talked to a lot of the women that, you know, were just like the witnesses and things

[00:39:46] [SPEAKER_02]: like that.

[00:39:47] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think she did a really good job, too, in her role.

[00:39:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.

[00:39:52] [SPEAKER_01]: And then I'm going to try to do it right.

[00:39:54] [SPEAKER_01]: James Latroll.

[00:39:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Latroll.

[00:40:01] [SPEAKER_02]: Didn't warm up to you as much.

[00:40:03] [SPEAKER_02]: And that's probably because he did a lot of the technical things, too.

[00:40:06] [SPEAKER_02]: It's not really his fault.

[00:40:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Not that I think he didn't do a good job, because I think the prosecution as a whole working

[00:40:13] [SPEAKER_02]: together and all of their roles, I think they all did a really good job.

[00:40:16] [SPEAKER_01]: I want to go on to the defense.

[00:40:18] [SPEAKER_01]: I guess Andrew Baldwin.

[00:40:21] [SPEAKER_01]: I like them.

[00:40:22] [SPEAKER_02]: I more than Rosie, you know, for comparing.

[00:40:26] [SPEAKER_02]: I think he was more approachable in a sense or just not as like intimidating.

[00:40:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Because I don't know if Rosie was trying to, but he just always seemed like intimidating.

[00:40:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Like even because we don't like talk to these people or anything.

[00:40:41] [SPEAKER_02]: But just even like making eye contact, you like try not to look him in the eye, you know.

[00:40:46] [SPEAKER_02]: But with Baldwin, you know, we would make eye contact.

[00:40:48] [SPEAKER_02]: I would smile.

[00:40:50] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think he did a really good job.

[00:40:55] [SPEAKER_02]: I would laugh sometimes with like his one question on each of the yellow pieces of paper.

[00:41:01] [SPEAKER_02]: And we're flipping those over after we ask a question.

[00:41:03] [SPEAKER_02]: Like I thought was funny sometimes.

[00:41:05] [SPEAKER_02]: But he has a process and it works for him.

[00:41:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:41:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Those seed chapters or chapter seeds.

[00:41:11] [SPEAKER_00]: That's what he calls them.

[00:41:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:41:12] [SPEAKER_00]: You mentioned Brad Rosie.

[00:41:13] [SPEAKER_00]: What did you think of him?

[00:41:15] [SPEAKER_02]: And I don't know if he's like the lead person or if it's like they both are.

[00:41:23] [SPEAKER_02]: But it almost seemed like a ego thing to you.

[00:41:32] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.

[00:41:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Like, or maybe that's just the kind of person he is.

[00:41:35] [SPEAKER_02]: His ego just shows through.

[00:41:37] [SPEAKER_02]: But like I said, intimidating.

[00:41:40] [SPEAKER_02]: I think it was from starting out on the like, let me dumb this down for you.

[00:41:45] [SPEAKER_02]: Like, okay, so at least we know where we stand.

[00:41:49] [SPEAKER_02]: And, but yeah, I, and his, his questioning, it was hard for me to even focus and know what's going on.

[00:42:01] [SPEAKER_02]: Like, I feel like it was just so much smoke and mirrors around like what even we're supposed to be talking about.

[00:42:07] [SPEAKER_02]: And it was hard to keep track sometimes.

[00:42:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:42:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:42:13] [SPEAKER_01]: That was certainly not an uncommon perception of Rosie's cross examinations.

[00:42:21] [SPEAKER_01]: And then the last one on the defense team is Jennifer Oje.

[00:42:25] [SPEAKER_02]: I really, really liked Jennifer Oje.

[00:42:28] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.

[00:42:29] [SPEAKER_02]: I really liked her.

[00:42:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Again, I don't know if it's because it's like a woman thing, but she did a really good job.

[00:42:35] [SPEAKER_02]: I think she, you know, stands on business.

[00:42:38] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, I think with both sides, things kind of got wonky at points.

[00:42:42] [SPEAKER_02]: So I don't really, and same thing with Rosie.

[00:42:46] [SPEAKER_02]: Like if it was just once in a while, I wouldn't hold that against him.

[00:42:48] [SPEAKER_02]: But it seemed like all the time it was confusing and ego and intimidation.

[00:42:56] [SPEAKER_02]: But with Jennifer, I just felt, I don't know.

[00:42:59] [SPEAKER_02]: I kind of liked her.

[00:43:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Like she has a little bit of attitude.

[00:43:02] [SPEAKER_02]: And I feel like that from what I would picture like a defense attorney to be, I just, I liked it.

[00:43:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Were there any standout moments for you from any of the lawyers that kind of like really, you know, either where they messed up or they did something really good that you were like, whoa, that stands out for me?

[00:43:21] [SPEAKER_02]: Hmm.

[00:43:22] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, as it said, I think McLeon's closing arguments still kind of plays in my mind.

[00:43:29] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think that's what it successfully could do because you should think about what he said as the last thing we're trying to make a decision.

[00:43:41] [SPEAKER_02]: So when he said that, you know, she always wanted to help police solve crimes, like that broke my heart.

[00:43:51] [SPEAKER_02]: And that they both, you know, had the phone got the video and it wasn't for that.

[00:43:57] [SPEAKER_02]: We wouldn't have found Richie Allen.

[00:43:59] Yeah.

[00:44:01] [SPEAKER_02]: So that stuck with me.

[00:44:03] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think that's what he did best was using, you know, most.

[00:44:06] [SPEAKER_02]: And man, I'm trying to think of anything with the difference.

[00:44:11] [SPEAKER_02]: From a perspective of a juror that doesn't, we didn't, I didn't know about like the onanist stuff or I didn't know that there were arguments of what can be shared and whatnot.

[00:44:23] [SPEAKER_02]: Like behind, like we didn't know anything about behind the scenes things.

[00:44:26] [SPEAKER_02]: So from that perspective, when you're hearing, well, what do you think about the tree, the F on the tree?

[00:44:34] [SPEAKER_02]: And you're just wondering, like, what the hell are they talking about?

[00:44:38] [SPEAKER_02]: Like, I'm so confused.

[00:44:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Like, they think it's like some specific way it's on there.

[00:44:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Like, you're just like, wait.

[00:44:45] [SPEAKER_02]: And so then, you know, and then the constant arguments back and forth.

[00:44:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Like, I think that was pretty notable.

[00:44:53] [SPEAKER_02]: I always thought, like, is this normal?

[00:44:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Like, is there always this many recesses and sidebars?

[00:45:01] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, like the noise machine.

[00:45:04] [SPEAKER_02]: That was crazy.

[00:45:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, that freaking white noise machine.

[00:45:10] [SPEAKER_01]: I, that plays in my head sometimes.

[00:45:14] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm curious, you know, in terms of, you mentioned sort of areas on both sides where the jurors were kind of like, hmm, I think this side dropped the ball a bit.

[00:45:23] [SPEAKER_01]: And can you tell me a bit about that?

[00:45:28] [SPEAKER_02]: A lot of the defensive side of things.

[00:45:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Like when I said, you know, McLeon did a good job of seeming, like, prepared and professional and just ready to go every morning and knew what he was doing that day.

[00:45:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Like, a lot of the time, I don't feel that we got that with the defense.

[00:45:48] [SPEAKER_02]: It kind of seems scrambled, confused, not knowing what they're going to do much.

[00:45:55] [SPEAKER_02]: And, I mean, from my perspective, like, I feel like they've had ample time to know what they're doing.

[00:46:02] [SPEAKER_02]: And you just, I don't know, for me, I expected more, I guess, like a higher level of professionalism from them just throughout, really.

[00:46:11] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think I'm mostly talking about Rosie when I say that, I say the defense.

[00:46:17] [SPEAKER_02]: But I really liked Jose.

[00:46:19] [SPEAKER_02]: I liked Baldwin, you know, at least 75% of the time.

[00:46:27] [SPEAKER_02]: So, I'm trying to think.

[00:46:29] [SPEAKER_02]: I know that there's definitely got to be things from the prosecution, too.

[00:46:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, and again, like, these are all just my personal experiences.

[00:46:40] [SPEAKER_02]: And that was a lot of it about this.

[00:46:42] [SPEAKER_02]: We couldn't really talk to each other about anything.

[00:46:45] [SPEAKER_02]: So, it was hard to just, like, keep this all in and, like, experience it just on your own.

[00:46:51] [SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, we can't really tell anyone at all about it.

[00:46:54] [SPEAKER_02]: That was really hard for me because I'm kind of like a gossiper.

[00:46:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[00:46:58] [SPEAKER_02]: So, I'm trying to think the prosecution, when we asked the jury a question of, like, did you look and see how many cars there were of this, of his car that year?

[00:47:11] [SPEAKER_02]: And then, next thing we know, they looked that up.

[00:47:15] [SPEAKER_02]: I was just like, I can't believe you wouldn't have thought to do that already.

[00:47:20] [SPEAKER_01]: So, that was less of, like, a wow moment and more of, like, a wait, what moment?

[00:47:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, wait, yeah.

[00:47:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it really wasn't what they're hoping it to be, I don't think.

[00:47:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[00:47:32] [SPEAKER_02]: And then, I feel like there was something else kind of like that.

[00:47:35] [SPEAKER_02]: The phone plug-in thing, and they're like, and Chris, people Googled it about the code that went from there being, like, a headphone jack.

[00:47:48] [SPEAKER_02]: He just looked it up in Google.

[00:47:50] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't feel like any of that is wrong, but it's like, okay.

[00:47:53] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, it doesn't really change much, I guess.

[00:47:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[00:47:59] [SPEAKER_02]: And I guess that's not a detriment to the prosecution, but...

[00:48:02] [SPEAKER_00]: The prosecution's frequent issues with the large monitor screen also proved to be a source of consternation for the jury.

[00:48:09] [SPEAKER_00]: They wanted to feel like their time was being used well, and those technological hiccups added up.

[00:48:15] [SPEAKER_01]: That was probably the number one of, like, what are you guys doing?

[00:48:19] [SPEAKER_01]: That was, yeah, that was a concern to the jury when they're seeing all of this stuff go wrong technologically-wise.

[00:48:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:48:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.

[00:48:27] [SPEAKER_02]: And, I mean, especially, you know, when it's causing things to just take longer because it's like, you know, we're being outweighed from our families and jobs for so long.

[00:48:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Like, our time is very valuable.

[00:48:41] [SPEAKER_01]: In this juror's mind, she also had concerns about Richard Allen's second interview with police, the one he did with Lieutenant Jerry Holman of the Indiana State Police.

[00:48:50] [SPEAKER_01]: That was something that weighed on her mind.

[00:48:52] [SPEAKER_02]: Because I've listened to the podcast, so that, when I hear what you guys said, I'm like, okay, well, that's true.

[00:48:59] [SPEAKER_02]: But I just feel like he was very tough in the interview with realizing, like, that's how they're supposed to be.

[00:49:04] [SPEAKER_02]: They're not supposed to, like, interrogations are supposed to be walked in the park.

[00:49:08] [SPEAKER_02]: That makes total sense.

[00:49:09] [SPEAKER_02]: And at the end, and I'm sure we'll get into, like, deliberations and things, but that was one of the things that we re-watched as far as video evidence.

[00:49:20] [SPEAKER_02]: We watched the interview.

[00:49:23] [SPEAKER_02]: And so, you know, we were able to have discussion about him.

[00:49:28] [SPEAKER_02]: And it was kind of mixed.

[00:49:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Like, I think a lot of people were like, well, that's how they're supposed to be.

[00:49:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Like, that's how interrogations go.

[00:49:37] [SPEAKER_02]: And for some reason, for me personally, the interview, I just thought, you know, a guy that's never been in with the law before.

[00:49:48] [SPEAKER_02]: And he didn't call for a lawyer.

[00:49:51] [SPEAKER_02]: He clearly doesn't know what he's supposed to do.

[00:49:54] [SPEAKER_02]: But he's not admitting to it.

[00:49:57] [SPEAKER_02]: So I was like, the interviews to me just felt like he was just too calm and really didn't know anything to have done it.

[00:50:07] [SPEAKER_01]: I was curious.

[00:50:08] [SPEAKER_01]: What did you guys think?

[00:50:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Speaking of videos, what did you guys make of the – because we didn't see these.

[00:50:14] [SPEAKER_01]: We were weirdly just, like, watching you all react to them and then trying to be like – everyone's like, wow, the jury's really mad at the defense.

[00:50:22] [SPEAKER_01]: The jury's really mad at the prosecution.

[00:50:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Everyone's just, like, making it up based on your momentary expressions.

[00:50:27] [SPEAKER_01]: But what did you guys make of the Westville videos?

[00:50:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:50:31] [SPEAKER_02]: And it's funny.

[00:50:32] [SPEAKER_02]: That's what – everyone's like, yeah, they're just looking at our faces.

[00:50:37] [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm like, oh, no, I didn't even think about that.

[00:50:39] [SPEAKER_02]: I hope my face is on.

[00:50:43] [SPEAKER_02]: But, yeah, so the videos.

[00:50:45] [SPEAKER_02]: I can't remember if it was the – because there was a set of camcorder, like, walking through the prison.

[00:50:51] [SPEAKER_02]: And then there's in-cell.

[00:50:54] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't remember, like, which we saw first.

[00:50:57] [SPEAKER_02]: And you guys weren't able to see either of those, right?

[00:50:59] [SPEAKER_02]: No, not any of them.

[00:51:01] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.

[00:51:02] [SPEAKER_02]: I'll try to recall the camcorder footage first.

[00:51:04] [SPEAKER_02]: It was essentially, like, what you would think.

[00:51:07] [SPEAKER_02]: There's someone – you know, there's guards around them.

[00:51:09] [SPEAKER_02]: They're holding the camcorder.

[00:51:10] [SPEAKER_02]: And they're, you know, taking them somewhere to go somewhere throughout the prison.

[00:51:16] [SPEAKER_02]: And I guess kind of just reference, like, going into it.

[00:51:19] [SPEAKER_02]: They did give us, like, a slight warning of, you know, you're watching the videos today.

[00:51:23] [SPEAKER_02]: And going into it, I – it wasn't as bad as I expected, I guess.

[00:51:28] [SPEAKER_02]: So to kind of tell you guys that for not being able to see it,

[00:51:32] [SPEAKER_02]: I expected just from hearing about them for it to just be so, so bad.

[00:51:36] [SPEAKER_02]: Like, because if they want to show all these to us this bad, like, it's got to be real bad.

[00:51:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Personally, I – because I'm huge on, like, especially Westville is horrible, horrible prison.

[00:51:49] [SPEAKER_02]: And, like, thank goodness they're building a new one.

[00:51:52] [SPEAKER_02]: But the way it is there is just so bad.

[00:51:55] [SPEAKER_02]: And I figured that's what, you know, they're trying to portray in the video.

[00:51:58] [SPEAKER_02]: So – but in these videos, it didn't seem that bad to me.

[00:52:03] [SPEAKER_02]: Like, it just looks like a prison, like you'd expect.

[00:52:05] [SPEAKER_02]: And while they're walking around, I know one of the times he's, like, in what looked like a small wheelchair thing.

[00:52:14] [SPEAKER_02]: It didn't have, like, big wheels like a wheelchair.

[00:52:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Just, like, small ones on all four legs.

[00:52:19] [SPEAKER_02]: But they were carrying it.

[00:52:20] [SPEAKER_02]: They weren't even knowing that they were carrying it, like, four people.

[00:52:24] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think they were taking him to get that x-ray.

[00:52:28] [SPEAKER_02]: There was a video there.

[00:52:29] [SPEAKER_02]: He was getting an x-ray because he was seeing his head on the wall.

[00:52:34] [SPEAKER_02]: And he was very – that was probably one of the worst ones is because he looked so black and blue.

[00:52:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Like, his whole face and head was black and blue.

[00:52:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Right, right.

[00:52:45] [SPEAKER_01]: So definitely disturbing to see.

[00:52:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I just – yeah, I thought it was not going to be that bad.

[00:52:52] [SPEAKER_02]: And then there's, you know, he's – the NFL ones, he's neared most of the time.

[00:52:57] [SPEAKER_02]: I think it was, like – and they put on the paper, like, which ones he had clothes on and which ones he didn't.

[00:53:03] [SPEAKER_02]: So that we were prepared, I guess.

[00:53:05] [SPEAKER_02]: But little Max messed up a couple times.

[00:53:08] [SPEAKER_02]: So some of you are naked that he wasn't.

[00:53:10] [SPEAKER_02]: And then some of you was naked or whatever, vice versa.

[00:53:14] [SPEAKER_00]: Little Max is Max Baker, the recent college graduate who assisted Rosie in the trial.

[00:53:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Sitting together for so long, the jurors built up some lore of their own throughout the trial.

[00:53:26] [SPEAKER_00]: We asked her about other weird and quirky things that she and the others noticed or heard about.

[00:53:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, here's some McLeod lore.

[00:53:34] [SPEAKER_02]: Jason told us – because Jason's really funny.

[00:53:37] [SPEAKER_02]: He, like – he's a jokester.

[00:53:38] [SPEAKER_02]: So, like, you always have to, like, never take him serious.

[00:53:40] [SPEAKER_02]: And I am kind of gullible sometimes.

[00:53:42] [SPEAKER_02]: So I would take him a little too serious.

[00:53:45] [SPEAKER_02]: But – so McLeod and everyone else has been going to Fort Wayne for a long time just for all the pre-trial stuff and all that.

[00:53:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I don't know if you guys know this, but I guess he used to have a mullet, like a full mullet.

[00:54:01] [SPEAKER_02]: And this is really inappropriate.

[00:54:03] [SPEAKER_02]: Jason says to him, like, why does your hair look like that?

[00:54:07] [SPEAKER_02]: It looks like you were at a – looks like you were at a tractor pull last weekend.

[00:54:13] [SPEAKER_02]: And Nick said I was.

[00:54:19] [SPEAKER_02]: And so – and then the next time Jason saw him, his hair looked like that, like it does now.

[00:54:23] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, that is so funny.

[00:54:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, my God.

[00:54:25] [SPEAKER_02]: So he made him feel bad.

[00:54:27] [SPEAKER_02]: He bullied him.

[00:54:29] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:54:31] [SPEAKER_02]: We drew a picture of Latrell.

[00:54:34] [SPEAKER_02]: Latrell?

[00:54:35] [SPEAKER_02]: We all thought it was Woodrow.

[00:54:37] [SPEAKER_01]: We did, too, until, like, halfway through the show.

[00:54:39] [SPEAKER_01]: And then we realized we were totally wrong because we got emails from all these people.

[00:54:44] Fuck!

[00:54:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I think even Fran might have thought it was Latrell because I swear that's what she was saying.

[00:54:48] [SPEAKER_02]: No, she got it wrong, too.

[00:54:50] [SPEAKER_02]: So one of the jurors, she's, like, good at drawing.

[00:54:52] [SPEAKER_02]: So he, like, did a little doodle of him, like, doing that whole holding his hands thing that I was explaining earlier.

[00:54:59] [SPEAKER_02]: And I forget they, like, wrote something at the bottom, but it was hilarious.

[00:55:03] [SPEAKER_02]: And we kind of, like, we would put the – what the weather was going to be, like, the highs and lows

[00:55:07] [SPEAKER_02]: because you didn't have any way to know the weather and what to wear.

[00:55:10] [SPEAKER_02]: So there was, like, a little bulletin we'd always look at.

[00:55:14] [SPEAKER_02]: We put it on the bulletin, so we were just looking at it the whole time.

[00:55:18] [SPEAKER_01]: It's, like, I don't know.

[00:55:19] [SPEAKER_01]: I feel like we all should be in group therapy together because I feel like there's certain things about this experience that only people who are there would ever even understand or find funny.

[00:55:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.

[00:55:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and we definitely kept the humor going.

[00:55:29] [SPEAKER_01]: That's necessary and that's something as bad as this, you know.

[00:55:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh.

[00:55:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:55:34] [SPEAKER_01]: It was.

[00:55:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I kept the same for sure.

[00:55:37] [SPEAKER_01]: I bet it did because, like, it's just you're seeing all this awful stuff.

[00:55:41] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm curious, you know, what witnesses stand out in your mind as being particularly powerful or memorable?

[00:55:47] [SPEAKER_02]: A big one.

[00:55:49] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if it's necessarily, like, her testimony specifically, but just really working through her.

[00:55:56] [SPEAKER_02]: And I mean, that was just almost the nail in the coffin for me, like, at the end.

[00:56:01] [SPEAKER_02]: But her just seeing him and him seeing her, you know, the long brown hair.

[00:56:07] [SPEAKER_02]: So that one was very easy to remember, of course.

[00:56:10] [SPEAKER_02]: And I'll be honest, like I said the whole time, I was really, like, trying to play devil's advocate and just see it from the defensive perspective almost, I guess.

[00:56:21] [SPEAKER_02]: So I really did try to question everything.

[00:56:24] [SPEAKER_02]: I just, it felt like a really hard thing to do and I just didn't want to get it wrong no matter what.

[00:56:30] [SPEAKER_01]: That's what you have to do as a juror.

[00:56:32] [SPEAKER_01]: And so, like, you should be proud of yourself for doing that.

[00:56:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Like, the worst outcome is convicting an innocent person.

[00:56:39] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:56:40] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, thank you.

[00:56:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks very much to the juror for trusting us with her story.

[00:56:46] [SPEAKER_00]: We so appreciate it.

[00:56:48] [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks so much for listening to The Murder Sheet.

[00:56:50] [SPEAKER_00]: If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us at murdersheet at gmail dot com.

[00:56:59] [SPEAKER_00]: If you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[00:57:08] [SPEAKER_01]: If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon dot com slash murdersheet.

[00:57:18] [SPEAKER_01]: If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www.buymeacoffee dot com slash murdersheet.

[00:57:28] [SPEAKER_01]: We very much appreciate any support.

[00:57:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for The Murder Sheet, and who you can find on the web at kevintg dot com.

[00:57:41] [SPEAKER_01]: If you're looking to talk with other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook.

[00:57:49] [SPEAKER_01]: We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much.

[00:57:55] [SPEAKER_01]: We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages.

[00:58:02] [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks again for listening.

[00:58:05] [SPEAKER_00]: Can we talk a little bit before we go about Quince, a great new sponsor for us?

[00:58:11] [SPEAKER_00]: I think in one of the ads that we've already done for them, we talked about the compliments I'm getting on my jacket.

[00:58:18] [SPEAKER_00]: I know you're a very modest woman, but can we talk about the compliments you're getting on the Quince products you wear?

[00:58:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I've got two of their Mongolian cashmere sweaters.

[00:58:27] [SPEAKER_01]: They're a brand that just does this sort of luxurious products, but without the crazy costs really well.

[00:58:34] [SPEAKER_01]: They give you Italian leather handbags.

[00:58:38] [SPEAKER_01]: They do like European linen sheets.

[00:58:40] [SPEAKER_01]: You have a really cool suede jacket, and I really like the way I look in my sweaters.

[00:58:46] [SPEAKER_01]: I like the way you look in your bomber jacket.

[00:58:48] [SPEAKER_01]: It looks super cool.

[00:58:49] [SPEAKER_00]: You've gotten a lot of compliments when you go out wearing these sweaters.

[00:58:52] [SPEAKER_01]: I think I have, yeah.

[00:58:54] [SPEAKER_00]: And deservedly so.

[00:58:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Also, I'm one of those people, my skin is very sensitive.

[00:59:00] [SPEAKER_01]: So when it comes to wearing sweaters, sometimes something's too scratchy.

[00:59:04] [SPEAKER_01]: It really bothers me.

[00:59:06] [SPEAKER_01]: These are so soft.

[00:59:07] [SPEAKER_01]: They're just very delicate and soft.

[00:59:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Wearing them is lovely because they're super comfortable.

[00:59:14] [SPEAKER_01]: It's not one of those things where you buy it and it looks great, but it doesn't feel that great.

[00:59:18] [SPEAKER_01]: They look great.

[00:59:19] [SPEAKER_01]: They feel great.

[00:59:20] [SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, I really love them.

[00:59:21] [SPEAKER_01]: And you've got your cool jacket.

[00:59:22] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that's a little bit of a – you're the guy who wears the same thing all the time.

[00:59:27] [SPEAKER_01]: So this was a bit of a gamble for you, a bit of a risk.

[00:59:29] [SPEAKER_01]: You got something a bit different.

[00:59:30] [SPEAKER_00]: I do wash my clothes.

[00:59:32] [SPEAKER_01]: I know you wash your clothes, but I mean –

[00:59:35] [SPEAKER_00]: You're filthy.

[00:59:36] [SPEAKER_00]: You just made me sound awful.

[00:59:37] [SPEAKER_00]: So no, I wash my clothes.

[00:59:39] [SPEAKER_01]: But you don't really –

[00:59:40] [SPEAKER_01]: I launder them.

[00:59:41] [SPEAKER_01]: You don't really experiment with fashion that much is what I'm saying.

[00:59:43] [SPEAKER_01]: So this is a little bit out of the norm for you, but I think you really like it and it looks good.

[00:59:47] [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you.

[00:59:48] [SPEAKER_00]: Great products.

[00:59:49] [SPEAKER_00]: Incredible prices.

[00:59:50] [SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.

[00:59:51] [SPEAKER_00]: Quince.com.

[00:59:52] [SPEAKER_01]: There you go.

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[01:00:10] [SPEAKER_00]: Before we go, we just wanted to say another few words about VIA.

[01:00:14] [SPEAKER_00]: This is really a wonderful product.

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[01:00:23] [SPEAKER_01]: So what does that mean?

[01:00:24] [SPEAKER_01]: It means that they're all about crafting different products to elicit different moods.

[01:00:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Kevin and I really like their non-THC CBD products.

[01:00:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Specifically, Zen really helps me fall asleep.

[01:00:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Some Zen can really just kind of help me get more into that state where I can relax and fall asleep pretty easily.

[01:00:42] [SPEAKER_01]: And they've been such a wonderful support to us.

[01:00:44] [SPEAKER_01]: They're a longtime sponsor.

[01:00:46] [SPEAKER_01]: We really love working with them and they really make this show possible.

[01:00:49] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to say this.

[01:00:50] [SPEAKER_01]: You may not realize this, but when you support our sponsors, you're supporting us.

[01:00:54] [SPEAKER_01]: And it kind of makes it possible for us to do this show.

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[01:01:05] [SPEAKER_00]: Anya, if I wanted to give this discount you speak of, what do I do?

[01:01:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, if you're 21 and older, head to VIAHEMP.com and use the code MSHEET to receive 15% off.

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[01:01:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Say the murder sheet because then it lets them know that our ads are effective and it really helps us out.

[01:01:38] [SPEAKER_00]: Before we wrap up this episode, can we take just a moment to say a few more words about our great new sponsor, Acorns?

[01:01:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, thanks so much to Acorns.

[01:01:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Remember, when you support our sponsors, you're supporting us.

[01:01:49] [SPEAKER_01]: And our sponsors make it possible for us to do this job, so we really appreciate them.

[01:01:54] [SPEAKER_00]: We love our sponsors.

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[01:03:02] [SPEAKER_01]: Paid non-client endorsement.

[01:03:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Compensation provides incentive to positively promote Acorns.

[01:03:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Tier 1 compensation provided.

[01:03:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Investing involves risk.

[01:03:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Acorns Advisors LLC and SEC Registered Investment Advisor.

[01:03:11] [SPEAKER_01]: View important disclosures at acorns.com slash msheet.