The Delphi Murders: First Person: Brian Olehy: Part One

[00:00:00] The Murder Sheet keeps us super busy, and so sometimes between writing and podcasting and trying to sell these t-shirts, we don't do a great job of taking care of ourselves. That's probably something a lot of people can relate to. We're all busy people with jobs and families and obligations. It can be hard putting yourself and your own health first.

[00:00:17] Our brand new sponsor Prolon can help. Prolon's fasting mimicking diet is a plant-based nutrition program that is backed by science. It takes all the fuss out of fasting. Instead of giving up food, you undergo a five-day program where you enjoy snacks, soups and beverages designed to make your body's cells believe they are fasting.

[00:00:41] It's designed to give a serious boost to your metabolic and cardiovascular health. Plus, it's a no-brainer. Your food comes in prepackaged and labeled so you know what to eat and when. They found that three consecutive Prolon cycles can reduce your biological age score by 2.5 years and cut your waist circumference down by 1.5 inches. Plus, it gets you down to a healthier blood sugar level. Fast with food. Take charge of your health. Try Prolon.

[00:01:07] To help you kickstart a health plan that truly works, Prolon is offering Murder Sheet listeners 15% off site-wide plus a $40 bonus gift when you subscribe to their five-day nutrition program. Just visit prolonlife.com slash msheet. That's P-R-O-L-O-N-L-I-F-E dot com slash msheet to claim your 15% discount and your bonus gift. Prolonlife slash msheet.

[00:01:33] Add some luxury into your life without breaking the bank. Check out our wonderful sponsor, Quince. This is a brand that's unlocking luxury products for all of us ordinary people. All the things that sound pricey and out of reach like washable silk shirts and dresses, 14-karat gold jewelry, European linens, Italian leather handbags, sweaters of Mongolian cashmere and organic cotton. That's what Quince offers, but at an unbeatable price.

[00:02:01] All Quince items are 50-80% less costly than those of their competitors. It's an amazing deal. They cut down the middleman and pass the savings on to you. And remember, by supporting our sponsors, you're supporting our show. We recently gifted ourselves some pieces from Quince. I got their suede bomber jacket. This one is very stylish and it keeps me really warm, which is helpful because it's been a cold winter. I also like the way I look in it, which is big for me.

[00:02:27] Give yourself the luxury you deserve with Quince. Go to quince.com slash msheet for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's quince.com slash msheet to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com slash msheet. Content warning. This episode contains discussion of the murder of two girls.

[00:02:52] A little over eight years ago, Brian Olahi was one of the crime scene investigators called out to the crime scene in the murders of Liberty German and Abigail Williams. At the time, Olahi worked for the Indiana State Police. He was a crime scene investigator with the Lafayette Post. It fell to him and his fellow CSIs to meticulously document the scene with photographs, preserve pieces of evidence, and gather other clues.

[00:03:17] Mr. Olahi has since retired, but his work with the state police saw him tackle many interesting cases over the years. He has served as a trooper, a detective, a public information officer, and a CSI. In this episode, we will talk with him about some of those investigations, how he came to become a CSI, and the major inaccuracies out there about that line of work. Now that the gag order is lifted, Mr. Olahi and others are free to speak about their experiences with the Delphi case.

[00:03:44] This will be the first of two episodes featuring our interview with him. They will be released on the same day, so check out the second part as well. These episodes are part of our first-person interview series. We seek to interview as many of the individuals with first-hand experience in the Delphi case as possible. If you had a direct role in the case and are open to speaking with us, email us at murdersheet at gmail.com. This is part of our ongoing efforts to report on the Delphi murders. For many years, we have not gotten the chance to hear directly from some of the principal figures in the case.

[00:04:14] That all changes now. My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist. And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney. And this is The Murder Sheet. We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases. We're The Murder Sheet. And this is The Delphi Murders. First Person. Brian Olahi. Part One.

[00:05:21] I guess to start off with, can you just tell us a bit about your background, where you're from, your life before joining law enforcement? So, I mean, I had a pretty typical Midwestern upbringing. I grew up in East Central Illinois, Champaign, Mattoon, Decatur area, small town, agriculture, some limited industrial. So, I mean, just kind of that small town, small school, athletics. You know, just growing up in middle America, basically, in East Central Illinois.

[00:05:48] And then went to college, went to a couple of schools, got an associate's degree in criminal justice, and got a bachelor's degree from Western Illinois University in law enforcement and justice administration. And then just started looking for careers and jobs. And, you know, I had friends that were in law enforcement that were mentors to me or just people that I knew and influenced probably my decisions to find a job in law enforcement. And several of them were troopers with the Illinois State Police.

[00:06:14] And, I mean, I just knew that I really wanted to be a trooper probably more than anything else. Just the style and the lifestyle of how you enforce things and what your job is and the opportunities that a state agency or a larger agency like that presents. Illinois was on a hiring freeze when I was in college. They went through several years. My parents had actually moved to Indiana during my senior year of college.

[00:06:36] So, I applied with the Indiana State Police in late 1994, I guess middle of 1994, and then started the academy with the state police in January of 95. Can you tell us a bit about your trajectory within the state police then? I went through the State Police Academy, which is held at the Indiana Law Enforcement Academy in Plainfield. It's run by the state police and held at the ILEA. But my first assignment out of recruit school was to go to the Lowell Post in northwest Indiana.

[00:07:05] So, I worked up in the seven northwest counties of Indiana at the Lowell District. Worked out of that post. And like every other trooper, you begin your career on patrol. I worked in Lake County, everything from Gary down to the south part of the rural area of Lake County. And then I spent several years on patrol in Newton and Jasper counties. And then I spent a little bit of time. I spent a year in gaming enforcement with the state police at the Trump Casino in Gary and then came back to patrol duties.

[00:07:34] Then I transitioned to a role as a detective at the Lowell Post and worked as a detective there. Worked a whole bunch of different cases. And one of my primary responsibilities was all the A, B, and C felonies that came out of the Indiana Department of Corrections facilities that were located up there. There were several facilities, everything from Westville Maximum Control Complex, Lakeside Facility, the Indiana State Prison.

[00:08:01] At the time, there was a Summit Farm and also a Jasper-Pulaski minimal security facility. So, I worked all the A, B, and C felonies as a detective out of there. Worked other cases that I was assigned as a detective at the Lowell Post. And then after that, I was promoted to sergeant in the public information office. And I was the media services officer for Northwest Indiana, primarily working out of the Lafayette Post just because it had media in Lafayette that Northwest Indiana didn't have.

[00:08:29] Northwest Indiana is very Chicago-driven. There's no TV stations really to speak of in Northwest Indiana. There's, you know, just news. But all of the news coverage came out of Chicago. And, like, if you ask somebody from, you know, the northwest part of Lake County who their governor was back in those days, they probably would have said Brad Blagojevich or, you know, because that's – they didn't know. So, I mean, we didn't get as much coverage just because Chicago oversourced, I guess, everything from Indiana. So, I was primarily working out of the Lafayette area.

[00:08:56] And then, again, in 2004, I was promoted to first sergeant. And I was the assistant section commander for the public information office for the state police. And I worked at headquarters downtown in Indianapolis. And I was in that position for about 11 years until 2016, I guess. 2016, I put in for and actively requested a demotion back to sergeant and sought the job as a crime scene investigator working out of the lab.

[00:09:23] Getting back into, you know, no pun intended, but getting my hands dirty again with actual criminal work. And doing, you know, crime scene investigation and using my investigative skills to – I just feel like I was making more of a difference than just dealing with media and public requests. It feels like you've had a really varied career within the state police, kind of going between PIO, CSI, gaming, all these different things. Can you tell us about that? Was that on purpose?

[00:09:50] Like I said about my career opportunities and why I wanted to be with the state police was just for those kind of opportunities. I mean, you know, a local kind of small Midwestern sheriff's department, you might wear a lot of hats, but you don't get to do a lot of things to the extent that I got. I've been fortunate to do them in my career. You know, we've talked before about some of the cases I've worked and, you know, I've been blessed to do a lot of really interesting things and been blessed to be in opportunities.

[00:10:19] Like, I mean, I'm just really – this is the 10-mile overview of my career. Things like, you know, working the Indianapolis 500 and all the races at the Motor Speedway and, you know, having a command position at those and, you know, being infamely involved in literally the largest sporting event in the world on an annual basis or things like the drags or working part of the Super Bowl when it was Indianapolis.

[00:10:42] Just different things that you – you know, I was fortunate enough to be in the right place to get to do things and to be put in a position to work on those kind of things. I just call myself fortunate, you know, not that I'm better or worse than anybody else, but I was just in the right place at the right time to get to do some cool things. And honestly, I mean, when big things happen, I mean, usually the state police is going to be involved in some way, shape, or form if it's that big.

[00:11:05] And, you know, just to be in the room for some of those discussions and to be around some of those investigations and people that I worked with coming up and people that I worked with when I was in a command position. I mean, I was around great and quality people and, you know, I've been blessed to learn from people who are, you know, experts in law enforcement and in our field and leaders of, you know, men and women who are exemplary. And I hope that I carry on their legacy, I guess.

[00:11:34] When we sound all dry and weird, that's not good for anyone. So we try to drink lots of water. The problem is I don't like tap water. I always go for the bottled water, but maybe I'm onto something. Extensive research by the Environmental Working Group finds that many homes in America can have harmful contaminants in their tap water. But there's one system that's selling me on tap water once and for all. I'm talking about AquaTrue.

[00:12:01] Their four-stage reverse osmosis purification system makes your life so much easier. No more water bottles, no more pitcher filters you have to keep changing. According to AquaTrue, AquaTrue is countertop purifiers. No installation and no plumber either. They do also have higher capacity under the sink options, a Wi-Fi connected purifier, and some that give your water a boost in minerals.

[00:12:22] Targeting chemicals like PFAS, which is found in 45% of United States tap water, AquaTrue removes 15 times more contaminants than ordinary pitcher filters. Plus, it's going to save you money. One set of filters from their classic purifier gets you the equivalent of 4,500 bottles of water for basically three cents a bottle and no mountain of plastic waste. AquaTrue comes with a 30-day money-back guarantee and even makes a great gift.

[00:12:49] Today, my listeners receive 20% off any AquaTrue purifier. Just go to AquaTrue.com. That's A-Q-U-A-T-R-U dot com and enter code M-Sheet at checkout. That's 20% off any AquaTrue water purifier when you go to AquaTrue.com and use promo code M-S-H-E-E-T. We like to automate things here at the Murder Sheet. We get all kinds of alerts about our episodes. We schedule emails in advance.

[00:13:16] We set reminders for ourselves to do interviews, lest we accidentally ghost a detective or a defense attorney. Automation makes life easier because it's one less thing to have to think about. That's why we love Acorns. This is an automatic investment service that's built to help everyone invest, no matter how much money you have. You've heard us speak about our sponsor, Acorns, before. Today's episode is sponsored by them. Acorns is a financial wellness app that makes it easy to start saving and investing for your future.

[00:13:45] You don't need to be an expert. Acorns are a recommended diversified portfolio that matches you and your money goals. You don't need to be rich. Acorns lets you get started with the spare money you've got right now, even if all you've got is spare change. I just wish we had had an app like Acorns back when we were just starting out. It would have saved us so much money-related time and stress because it's really a no-brainer. All it takes is $5 or even just your spare change.

[00:14:12] Sign up now and join the over 13 million all-time customers who have already saved and invested over $22 billion with Acorns. Head to acorns.com slash msheet or download the Acorns app to get started. Paid non-client endorsement. Compensation provides incentive to positively promote Acorns. Tier 1 compensation provided. Investing involves risk. Acorns Advisors LLC and SEC Registered Investment Advisor. View important disclosures at acorns.com slash msheet. You have worked on a variety of very big cases.

[00:14:42] Can you share with us some of the ones you find most memorable? I mean, there are a lot. You know, when one case that I was intimately involved with in kind of an odd way was the death of Governor O'Bannon. When Governor O'Bannon had his stroke at the Palmer House Hotel in Chicago on a trip for the state, I was called and asked to go and basically investigate the events that led up to that because he was traveling with state police personnel as his executive protection.

[00:15:12] So to make sure that, you know, A, the state police had done everything correctly to determine what had happened with the governor, which, you know, he later succumbed to his injuries from the result of his stroke. So, I mean, I did a full death investigation basically documenting what was done with the state police. Because, ironically, I guess, you know, I got asked to go up there by a member of the legal staff with the state police as a detective.

[00:15:41] And I had to remind him that I was going to Chicago where I had the legal authority, you know, and I think of, you know, if anybody knows Jerry Azelle, they would know that maybe a four-letter word came back across the phone at me when I was told to go to Chicago and do some investigative stuff.

[00:15:58] And, remarkably, I cold-called, you know, fire dispatch when I got to the Palmer House for the Chicago Fire Department and just told them who I was and what I needed and what I was doing. And they took me at my word and they said, you know, I basically wanted to talk to the ambulance crew that had come and taken the governor from the hotel and just get, you know, information from them because he was the governor of Indiana. Remarkably, they said, you know, they're on a run right now. They're out of the hospital.

[00:16:27] When they get done, we'll mark them out of service. We'll take them out of service. We'll send them back to you. And they took a, you know, a downtown, you know, busy Chicago firehouse ambulance and took it out of service and sent them back so I could interview the three or four people that were from that service. And I was, I was, I'm, that's about as shocking as anything that they took me at my word and that happened. And so, yeah, the governor's death was something that was kind of unique. I mean, not, not many people can say they're the only person to write paper on the death of a sitting governor.

[00:16:56] I was also the lead investigator on the murder of a trooper who was a friend of mine, Trooper Scott Patrick. I was the lead investigator on his murder. It's kind of ironic. Several years later, when I was in media and public information and was the assistant commander and PIO, I got a phone call from one of my PIOs at the Lowell Post. And a reporter from the Washington Post was doing a multi-part series, a multi-platform journalism series on straw purchased firearms used to kill law enforcement.

[00:17:26] She came out with an entire crew, a photographer, a photo, a video, videographer, a multimedia specialist, and Cheryl, the reporter, came out and they interviewed me on that. And Scott's case was because it was a straw purchase was one of the stories featured in their four part series. And then I think probably one of the most memorable cases, probably the last murder I worked with Jason Page.

[00:17:50] It was a subject who murdered three people in a trailer park in Peru, Indiana, Mitchell Page. And he got one of the longest, I want to say it was maybe the longest ever sentence in Miami County ever given out to an individual. It was a pretty heinous crime just in terms of what happened and how things, you know, materialized.

[00:18:12] He actually killed a male and female who the female was the mother of his child with her. He took his child and then he also executed a about a four-year-old child who could have identified him and knew him. And then he left about a two, two and a half year old boy alive to fend for himself for almost a week before the bodies were discovered. And there were two dogs and the little boy were left alive.

[00:18:41] And that was a pretty heinous one. So, I mean, those are three that pop into my head as you ask that question. I mean, there's been a lot of cases that have just been unique or different or odd. And I think when we talked before, like I use the analogy to describe law enforcement of, you know, you can watch cops or you can watch real stories of the highway patrol where they ride live. Or you can watch a show like Law & Order, which, you know, is fairly accurate.

[00:19:07] I mean, in a lot of ways, you know, but I watch police shows and I always pick out the things that are wrong, just like my wife does when she watches medical shows. So I tell people, honestly, the most realistic depiction of law enforcement that I've ever watched is Reno 911 because it's because it's so outlandish and so over the top and so filled with absolute crazy characters that that's what real life is.

[00:19:34] I mean, and yeah, I mean, it's a caricature of it all, but you just can't make this stuff up sometimes. So, I mean, in a nutshell, that's what a career in law enforcement ends up being is, you know, moments and hours and days of boredom interrupted by intense, brief spurts of chaos. Just things that you never thought you would see or sometimes they're funny, sometimes they're sad, sometimes they're just ironic.

[00:20:03] But, you know, it all it all works out in the end. You mentioned, you know, some of those cases that you mentioned, the murder of a friend and fellow trooper, this horrible case involving a murdered child with parents and then kid left alive in heinous circumstances. Does that stuff take a toll? How do you kind of kind of keep moving and do the job even in the face of that? I mean, I can't sit here and say that I'm not scarred in some way from things that I've dealt with or done or been around.

[00:20:32] I definitely am. But I guess you just you just live in the moment. And so, yeah, I don't think it, you know. When when you change or something changes on you, it becomes your new norm. So I don't know that we really realize how much things in life change us. And that's not just law enforcement. That's just human nature. I mean, we were. Very good at adapting to our circumstances as human beings.

[00:20:59] And I think that's what most people do is you learn to adapt. And I think you had the most problem when you can't learn to adapt. So as far as, you know, the toll. Yeah, I've. Yeah, I got a lot of scars left bad things and bad taste in my mouth. Bad, you know. Bad stuff has happened to me. Bad stuff's happened to my family. I probably neglected things that I should have done at some point in time or another. But. I mean, my sense of duty, I guess.

[00:21:29] You know, you get asked when you start in law enforcement, one of the canned responses is, why do you want to do this? And you say help people. And it's it's a it's a very canned response. And it's a very. Like, oh, yeah, well, of course, you're going to say that. But in the end, that's really what you're doing. Tell us about your pivot into crime scene investigation work. How did you kind of mentioned at some point turning to that? How did that work? What drew you to it?

[00:21:58] And tell us about getting started with that. When I was a detective at the Lowell Post and I first become a detective, really, we were working a homicide where a subject had been essentially, you know, kind of murdered by a. Person. At the request of a guy's. For lack of a better term, common law life, they'd been together for years. She was convicted. I don't know that the we believe the suspect to be the shooter was ever actually convicted.

[00:22:28] But I was working that case and one of the crime scene guys came out. And I remember we dug up the body and got the body out of the barn where it was where it was buried on the guy's property. And a position had come open for a crime scene investigator's job. And I only had about five years on the state police. And I interviewed for it and I was interested in it then. That was actually the point in time. The other person that interviewed was Dwayne Datsman.

[00:22:55] And Dwayne actually got the position, which I'm glad that he did, because I know at that point with five years on and being a brand new detective, I wasn't. I was experienced enough and ready to do crime scene work to the extent that, you know, Dwayne was. Dwayne was well into his career when he had that position. And ironically, Dwayne and I actually retired from the state police. He had, you know, 30, 34 plus years. I had 27 when I retired. Dwayne and I retired within a week of each other. Yeah.

[00:23:23] I mean, I was interested in it then. And then as I worked as a detective, just, you know, working, you know, around crime scene investigation things and with different cases. I mean, I knew like that was interesting. And I'd been a detective and I didn't really want to go back to just, you know, being a district detective and work in cases and just draw on what came in. I wanted to be more intimately involved with the minutia of the cases. Yeah.

[00:23:47] I mean, it was just it was an opportunity and it was time for me to, you know, change gears and shift shift my career. I was, you know, kind of done with going to headquarters on a regular basis and there was changes that, you know, within the agency. It was just a good opportunity at the right time. And, you know, I feel like God puts things in your path sometimes at the right time for the right reason. And I felt like that's where I was supposed to be. What kind of training did you have to prepare yourself to be a CSI?

[00:24:13] I mean, a lot of the things I think that people miss are just being a police officer, you know, just looking at things and noticing things and watching things. And being aware of things around you, you know, and kind of understanding crime and crime scenes from, you know, just an officer standpoint. You know, responding, being a first responding officer a lot of times to securing scenes, you know, because a patrol officer may be the first one there.

[00:24:38] And what he does or doesn't do can really lead to success at a crime scene, finding evidence or preserving evidence. And so that's important. I think I had that knowledge and that experience. And then my time spent as a detective prepared me for kind of what the job would entail and the kinds of things I would need to obtain at crime scenes. And that increased my ability to work with the detectives.

[00:25:06] Jason Page was also a district detective before he was a crime scene investigator. You know, and I think that gives you a unique perspective rather than just going straight into crime scene work. You have a different perspective. You have an investigator's perspective. And, you know, we could talk about the CSI effect that you see on TV. And a lot of times on TV, you see somebody in a really fancy suit collecting with really nice shoes, collecting evidence.

[00:25:31] And I don't, you know, I like Merrill's personally, but I don't have any high heels or any patent leather shoes that I wear to crime scenes. But a lot of times on TV, you'll see a detective. And there are places where this is the norm, where a detective walks through a crime scene and tells the crime scene investigator, collect that, do this, you know, dust that, do this. And that's what you see on TV. And I think there are probably some places where it is kind of like that.

[00:25:58] And then the crime scene investigators, just a collector of stuff. Like they don't have any thought into it. They're just doing what they're told. So, I mean, as far as my training with being an officer, all of that got me to the point where I had an idea of what to do and how to do it. But then the specific training is the Indiana Law Enforcement Academy runs a crime scene investigation school. At the time, it was a Lieutenant Kiefer who oversaw the school.

[00:26:27] But it was predominantly run by state police personnel, and in particular, Dean Marks. Dean is the, he was, you know, the QA person for state police at that point in time. He was one of the chief trainers, one of the chief reviewers. I think it's important to note that, you know, state police crime scene cases, the cases that the crime scene investigators write, every one of them is reviewed by a peer in some way, shape, or form.

[00:26:51] Whether that's your immediate supervisor or whether that's a randomly chosen set of cases done by the quality analysis team where they review cases. Just check your work and make sure you're following practice and procedure. We operate at a high level of analysis and peer review within the state police. The school itself is about a four-week, it's a four-week long school, 40 hours a week.

[00:27:13] And I went through it with some other state police personnel and several local personnel, local law enforcement and county law enforcement. And that school is basically a broad overview of almost every area of crime scene investigation that you can imagine. It doesn't in no way, shape, or form make anyone an expert in any one area, nor does it make them an assertive expert in crime scene investigation in and of itself.

[00:27:42] What I would say is it makes you capable of documenting scenes and processing scenes in the manner which the state police want them done by policy procedure and practice. And then you go out and you begin to work kind of with a mentor. Jason Page was my kind of my mentor. He's my working mentor. He started going to scenes with me. I started going to scenes and events with him. And then until such time as, you know, you kind of get released on your own to do property crimes by yourself.

[00:28:12] And then after a period of time when you've proven yourself, you get released to go and do death investigations on your own. So whether that's a suicide or whether that's a homicide or some other death-related event, the state police goes to a lot of death events. I mean, I went to a lot of suicides just mainly to, you know, document them and go to a lot of autopsies as a crime scene investigator. I mean, a lot of autopsies. In my time in the state police, I probably went to more autopsies than anybody else.

[00:28:42] A, out of the desire to learn, I never went to an autopsy where I didn't learn something new. You know, and I've worked with pathologists. I've worked with forensic pathologists. You know, some of them are better than others. But, you know, so my training continues each and every day on the job. I mean, you never know what you're going to see or not see or learn or not learn from a scene. And again, it's, you know, it's really Reno 911.

[00:29:09] You never know what kind of crazy stuff you're going to see and what you're going to have to, what trick you're going to have to pull out of the bag or what skill you're going to need to use or even what new skill you're going to have to develop. And what I would say that is not captured on television programs, movies, to the extent that it should be. The primary job of any crime scene investigator is to document what's there.

[00:29:36] And that documentation is predominantly done with photographs. And if you can't take good quality images of a scene, then you're really not very useful or successful as a crime scene investigator. You know, I was fortunate. Jason Page is, he has a fine arts degree and he was a professional photographer, literally like working with film.

[00:30:03] And so he has an artist perspective of taking photos. And I learned a lot from taking photos with Jason, just perspective and, you know, overall and, you know, trying to tie things in. And I always find irony in a lot of photos, like, you know, sometimes we would take photos just for the irony. I'll give you, I'll give you an example. I had one where a woman was beaten by her niece and this woman was in her 90s.

[00:30:29] Matter of fact, the pathologist who did the autopsy said, this is the oldest person I've ever done an autopsy on because old people just usually die of natural causes or some, you know, extreme medical event. So they don't get a lot of autopsies on old people. So she had been beaten by her 60 some year old niece and they shared a duplex residence. And the old woman had a hospital bed and on her first floor where she slept now because she couldn't go up and down the stairs.

[00:30:55] And she was kind of slumped over her bed where her body was found. And the on the it was just outside the kitchen. So in the kitchen was a Christmas photo of the woman who was convicted of her murder with her picture on it, you know, just one of those Christmas cards you send to your family with your picture on it. And I thought, well, that's unique. So I ended up taking two photos and I used the, you know, the focal length to put the picture of the woman who was the murder suspect.

[00:31:25] And that picture is hanging on the fridge and very clear view. And then in the background, grainy and blurry is the deceased woman's body. And then I switched my focal length and I took that picture so that the old woman was now in clear focus and the suspect's picture up close was out of focus. And I thought, you know, those two pictures really tell a story like that's, you know.

[00:31:49] So and Jason taught me to think about things, you know, we present evidence to a court and whether that court is a judge or whether that's a jury, we're going to present that evidence to them. And that photo, that's a photo that speaks to people like people remember those kind of things. So we want to capture things that capture the essence of what the crime scene is. So, I mean, those are things we think about, you know, when taking pictures and documenting a crime scene. So, I mean, that's a really long answer to a really short question. It was a great answer.

[00:32:20] So you're not just going and snapping things at random. There's a lot of thought that goes into each of these shots, essentially. Yes and no. I mean, the nice thing is 15 years ago, they were still using film. So you had 25 or 30 shots, you know, on a roll of film and you didn't see them until they were developed. Now we're using digital and moving on to mirrorless cameras. That means a film's free. So I can see what I took a picture of.

[00:32:46] Now, what we don't do is if you screw a picture up or it's blurry, we don't delete them. I mean, and a good thing to point out is, you know, we might take a thousand photos at a crime scene, but the jury and the judge may only see 2% of them, 1% of them, 10 of them. In any case, I've never had my entire body of work presented to a judge or a jury.

[00:33:07] So that's an important thing to consider, especially when you're forming opinions from things that are in the media or presented to the media or shown to the public, either through court or releases, that you're only seeing, you're looking through a door through a keyhole. And you're not looking through the entire doorway when you see what's presented. And I mean, and that's up to the prosecutor to determine what's presented, what's not presented. There are specifics to what can be presented or what would be prejudicial.

[00:33:37] I mean, graphic, gory color images to a jury could be prejudicial. One thing we don't do is we don't edit or, you know, do anything specific with our photos to Photoshop them. I mean, the image I take, the images are all there. I don't delete. You know, you can track the numbering system on the photos and the metadata, but you just leave that all there. And if you screw up or you, you know, take blurry pictures for a while, you should know right away because it's a digital image and you can just look on the back of the camera.

[00:34:07] But getting good photos is the key. So I guess I would sum it up with we don't go in and just click, click, click, click, click. But sometimes we take a lot of click, click, click because it's. It's digital. I mean, we can do that like I can, you know, I can put a 20, you know, a 20 gig SD card in the camera and store a lot of images on it. So, I mean, getting all of that stuff is is good and fine. And, you know, I don't think you can take too many pictures at a crime scene.

[00:34:36] And then one follow up question I want to go back to and I want to ask this for our audience and also for me because I don't know what the difference is. What is the difference between a pathologist and a forensic pathologist? So all forensic pathologists are pathologists. So they study the cells, basically. They study the area of cells in the body and they have a specific skill set as a pathologist.

[00:35:02] A forensic pathologist then goes through a specific fellowship and a board certified forensic pathologist is what I would call, you know, an extra two, three, four years of schooling and boards to become a forensic pathologist.

[00:35:18] They have expertise in cause and manner of death and things, you know, specific, specific to wounds and injuries, bullets, knives, blunt force trauma that a pathologist doesn't have. When you work a crime scene and you're going to have a body or a human, you know, remains taken to a pathologist for autopsy, you want it to be a forensic pathologist because of the expertise that they have.

[00:35:45] I am aware that there are people who pass themselves off as forensic pathologists to include in the name of their business. Forensic appears in it, but they are not board certified pathologists. In Indiana, coroners can kind of, you know, pick and choose who they want to perform their autopsies for them. Coroners are not pathologists. Generally speaking, in Indiana, there's no specific requirement in Indiana for being an elected coroner.

[00:36:15] I mean, you can, there are very minimal requirements for it. There's not a specific medical background required. There's not a specific set of, you know, degrees that you have to have to be able to, you know, able to run for coroner. Can I run for coroner right now? Absolutely. I mean, assuming you're registered and legal and legally in, you know, the state of Indiana as a resident and as long as you meet the residency requirements. What do you think about that?

[00:36:40] I mean, I don't, the coroner system is a, it is a statutory position within Indiana government. So it's term limited, just like the governor is. It's limited to two terms. I think it's kind of an old and archaic system. And I think a lot of people think that the coroner is actually the one doing the autopsy or is specifically medically trained. And quite often they're just lay people.

[00:37:07] In my experience in Indiana, there have been a lot of dentists who've been elected coroners, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. I think to one in one county where he was actually, he was good with bite marks, like he could do bite mark recognition. So, I mean, that was a good thing. We've also had several veterinarians as coroners. We've had paramedics, nurses. We've had school bus drivers as their occupation be coroners. Ultimately, you know, they are one of the signers of the death certificates.

[00:37:37] The coroners go through, in order to be certified and to be a deputy coroner, they go through a metallurgical death examination training. So they have that. But, I mean, I think a lot of people think they're like the person on TV, like Quincy M.D. or, you know, the person like on one of the Law and Order series who like pulls the sheet back and shows, you know, the, well, here, this is what, this tells you this. Like, and that's, that's not quite the case.

[00:38:01] I mean, you know, I've actually had a lot of, I've, I've, I've known coroners who were very green to the cause and manner of death. But they serve a function as far as record keeping and information that's very important. But other states have, Kentucky, for example, has a medical examiner system, which I think is very, very good. I've actually gone to training with the former chief medical examiner for the state of Kentucky, Tracy Corey. Dr. Corey, she's an amazing person.

[00:38:30] She's exceptionally gifted in cause of death and manner and injuries in children. So, but it's my fear always that, you know, someone might go into a scene and go, oh, yeah, it's a suicide. There's a gun in their hand and there's a bullet in their head. And yeah, suicide, let's go, you know, bag and tag them when maybe that's not necessarily the case. I think it's important that everything like that gets looked at.

[00:38:52] And I think for justice sake and for the victim's sake, it's important that it be looked at by, you know, honestly, a forensic pathologist to be absolutely certain that there's not something greater, larger or bigger at hand. It sounds like there aren't that many forensic pathologists compared to some of the other fields. I mean, is that common to run into one?

[00:39:20] It's probably been six or seven years that I went to the training with Dr. Corey from Kentucky. And at that point in time, there were what I, the number I recall her spewing was there are about 550 forensic pathologists in the United States. And the gold standard for them was, you know, no more than like 200 to 300 autopsies a year.

[00:39:44] I'm aware of a forensic pathologist in this state who was doing upwards of 900 to 1,000 a year. And those forensic autopsies sometimes took less than 30 minutes. And that's a full forensic autopsy that he was charging the coroner for and the citizens of that county for. A forensic autopsy is much like a crime scene examination of just the body itself.

[00:40:12] So, you know, taking your time and, you know, yeah, sometimes if it quacks like a duck and it walks like a duck and it swims like a duck, it's a duck. But, you know, trying to do that in 30 minutes is not necessarily the right way to do it, the best way to do it. I think slowing down and doing it as properly as possible is the right way to do it.

[00:40:32] And I don't, I think probably part of the system of the coroner system in Indiana lends itself to the speed of the process for someone like that pathologist to, you know, to do nine, you know, eight or nine, 10 autopsies in a day and not in one location. That's with travel time from county to county. You know, several states have, like I said, a medical examiner system with centralized labs where those pathology, those autopsies are completed.

[00:41:01] I think Indiana would be best served by that in a regional capacity where, you know, you're going to have a forensic pathologist completing the autopsy in a timely manner and doing a full forensic autopsy when it's needed. I want to go back again a little bit. And you mentioned Dean Marks. That's someone we heard a lot about from Major Pat Cicero in our previous interview with him. It seems like he's very influential within the CSI community in Indiana.

[00:41:29] Can you just tell us a bit about him and sort of all that? Obviously, I'm a disciple of Dean. I'm from his coaching tree because he trained me and I worked with Dean. He was my QA person the early part of my career prior to his retirement. Dean worked in the Peru area. His dad was with the state police, was, I believe, a commander at Pendleton Post when Dean was a little kid there. Also, Jack Marks was very famously part of the Ringo Starr. Where the heck is Ringo when the Beatles were here in 64?

[00:41:59] And when he took them back to the Marks home. And Dean doesn't really tell that story much anymore. And Jack got tired of telling that story prior to his passing. But that's part of the lore of the Marks family with the state police. Dean was a longtime crime scene investigator and was the driver behind, like I said, the crime scene investigator school at the Law Enforcement Academy where most people went. There are other places you can go to school. You can go out of state to a crime scene investigation school to four or five weeks.

[00:42:28] I know other agencies go other places. They send people to other places. But if you're going to do it in Indiana, probably in the last 15 years to 20 years and do anything with crime scene investigation, you've probably run across Dean or you've run across someone who's worked with Dean or been trained by Dean. He had a lot of experience. He was in the right place at the right time. And he is predominantly the person who trained most of the state police crime scene investigators that have worked in the last 20 years.

[00:42:57] And then this is something we just had a curiosity about when it comes to CSIs. Do individual CSIs have specialties like specialize in bloodstain pattern analysis or are you kind of doing it all at the crime scene? Sort of sounds like everyone's kind of doing it all. I would say from a state police perspective, you're expected to be able to do a little bit of everything. Are there people who are experts in an individual area like crime scene reconstruction or bloodstain analysis or shooting reconstruction?

[00:43:26] Those are areas of specialty which you can go to and obtain a certification or become certified. State police has some rules and regulations as far as when you're allowed to testify as an expert and going through the internal training process and certification process. It's not that you just go to two weeks of a school and then you're granted a united as an expert. You're trained and then you go out and work some of those things and it's peer reviewed by another expert in that area.

[00:43:58] Different people have had different specialties over time and you can give some of those up if you don't want to maintain the certification or maintain the training level. Just because you got trained, let's say, as a bloodstain expert doesn't mean that it's for good, you know, for perpetuity. It's something that you have to continue your education on. Just like in order to maintain your law enforcement certification, the law enforcement training board requires an amount of training.

[00:44:24] The Indiana State Police, in order to maintain my certification, I have to do certain trainings. In order to maintain my certification as a crime scene investigator through the law enforcement academy, the training board, you have to go through certain trainings and complete certain numbers of hours in crime scene investigation. So all of those things, I mean, you know, there are experts, but sometimes you're voluntold to become an expert and sometimes you, you know, choose to become an expert in an area. This is a very basic question.

[00:44:54] What kind of things can a crime scene tell us? It can tell you what happened. It can tell you who was there. It can tell you, it tells you very specific things. Doesn't tell you speculative things, though. You know, using Delphi is one of the questions I think people were asked or I've heard people being asked were, you know, from the defense was, you know, and maybe it was, I don't know. Prosecution defense, you know, could this have been done by one person? Yeah. Could it have been done by two people? Yeah.

[00:45:23] Is it, but, you know, is it possible it was done by one? Yeah, absolutely. You know, so that's something that, you know, does it, it doesn't always tell you exact things. Sometimes it does tell you very precise and exact things. It can tell you, like, if a body's in the middle of the room and there's a round hole in the middle of the forehead and it resembles and looks like a bullet, bullet entry wound. And there's no exit. I expect to take that, probably go x-ray it and find metal inside the head somewhere.

[00:45:54] And that would lead, you know, you can look and go, yeah, that looks like a bullet wound. But I don't, I can tell you it resembles a bullet wound. It presents all the characteristics of a, you know, a projectile fired from a firearm. But until I've recovered a projectile or had some other, something else that would present itself to say, yeah, that's what it was. I just go on the basis of, they got a hole in their head, you know, that does have a burn mark to it. Maybe they're stippling because of the range.

[00:46:20] And then once you get, you know, the autopsy and you go in and you find a bullet in the brain, then now you've, you've connected two dots. So, I mean, it tells you things that you, that are very obvious sometimes, and it tells you things that aren't so obvious sometimes. And I think that's part of the puzzle of unlocking the mystery of what, what did or didn't happen. We'd like to really thank Brian for taking the time to speak with us today. Thanks so much for listening to The Murder Sheet.

[00:46:46] If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us at murdersheet at gmail.com. If you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities. If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com slash murdersheet.

[00:47:13] If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www.buymeacoffee.com slash murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support. Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for The Murder Sheet, and who you can find on the web at kevintg.com.

[00:47:37] If you're looking to talk with other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join The Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience, as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening. Can we talk a little bit before we go about Quince, a great new sponsor for us?

[00:48:06] I think in one of the ads that we've already done for them, we talked about the compliments I'm getting on my jacket. I know you're a very modest woman, but can we talk about the compliments you're getting on the Quince products you wear? Yeah, I've got two of their Mongolian cashmere sweaters. They're a brand that just does this sort of luxurious products, but without the crazy costs really well. They give you Italian leather handbags. They do like European linen sheets.

[00:48:36] You have a really cool suede jacket. And I really like the way I look in my sweaters. I like the way you look in your bomber jacket. It looks super cool. You've gotten a lot of compliments when you go out wearing these sweaters. I think I have. Yeah. And deservedly so. Also, I'm one of those people, my skin is very sensitive. So when it comes to wearing sweaters, sometimes something's too scratchy. It really bothers me. These are so soft. They're just very delicate and soft.

[00:49:06] Wearing them is lovely because they're super comfortable. It's not one of those things where you buy it and it looks great, but it doesn't feel that great. They look great. They feel great. But yeah, I really love them. And you got your cool jacket. I mean, that's a little bit of a – you're the guy who wears the same thing all the time. So this was a bit of a gamble for you, a bit of a risk. You got something a bit different. I do wash my clothes. I know you wash your clothes, but I mean – you're filthy. You just made me sound awful. So no, I wash my clothes. But you don't really –

[00:49:35] I laundry them. You don't really experiment with fashion that much is what I'm saying. So this is a little bit out of the norm for you, but I think you really like it and it looks good. Thank you. Great products. Incredible prices. Absolutely. Quince.com. There you go. So you can go to Quince.com slash Msheet. And right now they're offering 365-day returns plus free shipping on your order. So it's Quince.com slash Msheet. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash M-S-H-E-E-T.

[00:50:05] Before we go, we just wanted to say another few words about Vaya. This is really a wonderful product. I think it's really helped both of us get a lot better rest. Vaya is pretty much, I guess you'd say, the only lifestyle hemp brand out there. So what does that mean? It means that they're all about crafting different products to elicit different moods. Kevin and I really like their non-THC CBD products. Specifically, Zen really helps me fall asleep.

[00:50:31] Some Zen can really just kind of help me get more into that state where I can relax and fall asleep pretty easily. And they've been such a wonderful support to us. They're a longtime sponsor. We really love working with them. And they really make this show possible. I'm going to say this. You may not realize this, but when you support our sponsors, you're supporting us. And it kind of makes it possible for us to do this show. So if you or one of your loved ones is interested in trying some of this stuff, you're going to get a great deal. It's very high quality, high value.

[00:51:00] Anya, if I wanted to get this discount you speak of, what do I do? Okay, if you're 21 and older, head to Viahemp.com and use the code MSHEET to receive 15% off. And if you're new to Viah, get a free gift of your choice. That's Viahemp.com and use code MSHEET at checkout. Spell the code. M-S-H-E-E-T. And after you purchase, they're going to ask you, hey, where did you hear about us?

[00:51:26] Say the murder sheet because then it lets them know that our ads are effective and it really helps us out. Before we wrap up this episode, can we take just a moment to say a few more words about our great new sponsor, Acorns? Yeah, thanks so much to Acorns. Remember, when you support our sponsors, you're supporting us. And our sponsors make it possible for us to do this job. So we really appreciate them. We love our sponsors. Absolutely. Acorns is a terrific investing app.

[00:51:53] It's the perfect thing for somebody who wants to get started with their personal finance journey. That can seem daunting. It is daunting. I'm so not financially minded. For me, it's always really hard to get started with something like this where you're like, what am I doing? But Acorns sort of takes the guesswork out of that. It gets you started and it will essentially help you take control of your financial future.

[00:52:18] You can get set up pretty quickly and it allows you to start automatically saving and investing. That money can help you, your kids, if you have a family, your retirement. And you don't need to be rich. You don't need to be an expert to do this. It's very simple. And you can start with only $5 or whatever change you have. It's not like you need to put in some massive payment.

[00:52:38] So it's a great fit for people who are starting out, but they want to take the next step and improve themselves financially and make their money work for them more. So if you're interested, head to acorns.com slash msheet or download the Acorns app to start saving and investing for your future today. Paid non-client endorsement. Compensation provides incentive to positively promote Acorns. Tier 1 compensation provided. Investing involves risk. Acorns Advisors LLC and SEC Registered Investment Advisor.

[00:53:07] You important disclosures at acorns.com slash msheet.