The Delphi Murders: First Person: Chief Deputy Prosecutor Stacey Diener: Part One

[00:00:00] Content Warning, this episode contains discussion of murder, including the murder of children. At the Delphi Murders trial, Stacey Diener was a prosecutor who one day would be compassionately walking the victim's family members through the worst moments of their lives, and then later could subject a defense witness to an intense cross-examination. Carroll County Prosecutor Nicholas McClelland successfully tried and convicted Richard Allen of the murders of Liberty German and Abigail Williams.

[00:00:27] But, as he will be the first to say, he did not do this alone. He worked with a terrific team of two other attorneys, each of whom once served as an elected prosecutor in another Indiana County. We will be speaking with all of them this week. Stacey Diener has devoted her career to serving as a prosecutor. She was an elected prosecutor in Pulaski County and then moved on to work as an assistant prosecutor in White County.

[00:00:53] After a brief stint in private practice, she shut down her own law office to work on the Richard Allen case. Over the summer, she accepted a position as Carroll County Chief Deputy Prosecutor. We spoke with Chief Deputy Prosecutor Diener in the Carroll County Prosecutor's Office. The room is divided by a small wall, and as we talked with Stacey Diener, Prosecutor McClelland was on the other side of that wall preparing for the next trial.

[00:01:15] Now that the gag order is lifted, Chief Deputy Prosecutor Diener and others are free to speak about their experiences with the Delphi case. This will be the first of two episodes featuring our interview with her. They will be released on the same day, so check out the second part as well. These episodes are part of our first-person interview series. We will seek to interview as many of the individuals with first-hand experience in the Delphi case as possible in the coming weeks and months.

[00:01:42] If you had a direct role in the case and are open to talking to us, email us at murdersheet at gmail dot com. This is part of our ongoing efforts to report on the Delphi murders. For many years, we have not gotten the chance to hear directly from some of the principal figures in the case. That all changes now. My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist. And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney. And this is the Murder Sheet. We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases.

[00:02:11] We're the Murder Sheet. And this is the Delphi murders. First person. Chief Deputy Prosecutor Stacey Diener. Part one.

[00:03:05] I guess to start out with, can you tell us a bit about your background? Where are you from? That could be a long story. I consider myself to be from Hobart, Indiana, because that is where I was born. A lot of my childhood was there, but my parents divorced and we moved to Lafayette area. So I attended school there as well, then went back to Hobart, then went to Purdue, then went to Valparaiso.

[00:03:31] So you can see I kind of went back and forth between Northwest Indiana and Lafayette. I consider both of them a hometown. I went to Purdue for undergrad. I went to law school in Valparaiso. Right out of law school, I got a job as a Chief Deputy Prosecutor in Winnemack, Indiana, which would be Pulaski County. Eight years as a Chief Deputy, then I ran for prosecutor for three terms. So I was there a total of 20 years.

[00:03:59] And then made a change to being a Deputy Prosecutor in White County simply because I wanted to change my location to be close to my mom who lived in White County. Did that for eight years, 10 months of private practice. And then I got to join Nick McLeland on the Richard Allen case as a deputy for Carroll County. And then in that process, there was an opening as Chief Deputy.

[00:04:27] So before the case went to trial in the mid-July of 2024, I became the Chief Deputy here. So by the time trial happened, I was the Chief Deputy, full-time state paid. So what made you decide to go into law? What was the appeal? My mother was a legal secretary, as they called it, when I was in grade school.

[00:04:52] And so after school, my sister and I would walk downtown to Lafayette and hang around the courthouse and her law office, the office where she worked, until she got off work. So I was around attorneys and it just planted the seed that I would like to work in a courthouse, wear a suit every day. And I was an English major at Purdue. So it was a good background for law school. We talked a little bit about Perry Mason with Prosecutor McClellan.

[00:05:21] And of course, the creator of Perry Mason went to Valparaiso Law School. I wish I knew that. Thank you for that tidbit. He was there very briefly. What was that school like? I enjoyed it a lot. I was a Lutheran. So I kind of liked the affiliation that it's a Lutheran University. I was familiar with it. It's very near Hobart. And so it felt like hometown. It was, I would consider it a small law school.

[00:05:49] And it was very easy to know pretty much everybody or at least be familiar with everyone there. The locality was nice. I had a lot of family in the area. So just a good fit. When you're sort of recounting your career, it seems like you've spent a lot of time on the prosecution side. And I'm curious, was that always your goal? What about what about that work sort of drew you to it? I really became a prosecutor unexpectedly.

[00:06:19] So in law school, I wanted to be a judge someday. Didn't really seek a lot of information about the steps to become one. When I found out it required running for office in a campaign, my thought was I will never do that. But upon graduating from law school, I was paying for all of it myself. I needed to make a certain amount of money in order to pay my law school debt and to live.

[00:06:48] So I knew what I needed to make and I started looking for jobs that were salary. And that meant government jobs. And I liked the, that appealed to me because I wanted to be on the right side of the law in my perception. And I didn't want to do defense work. So that was never really under consideration. So I was looking for things like working for the attorney general's office, being a clerk for a judge.

[00:07:14] There was a chief deputy spot open in Winnemack, Indiana that I had never heard of. It was posted on a bulletin board, the old fashioned way of finding a job back in 1994. And so I looked it up and applied and it was going to pay enough. And I knew it would entail being in the courtroom, which I wasn't necessarily comfortable with. And I thought this is the best way to overcome my fear of trial work is to just force myself to do it. And that's what I did. I'll be brutally honest.

[00:07:42] I have not heard of Winnemack, Indiana. What's it like and what kind of crimes did you work on there? Winnemack is quite similar to Delphi. If you were to drive through it, it's very small, very quaint. I believe there are three stoplights on the main highway that goes through it. Very rural, lots of farming. The industry, there's, you know, five or six industries that are there that employ pretty much everyone.

[00:08:13] And it's kind of in the middle of nowhere. So the crimes, mostly domestic battery, operating while intoxicated. They had a methamphetamine problem just like other small communities, just as we do here. So very similar to Delphi and to Monticello. You did mention you were in private practice for about 10 months. What was that like compared to working in public service?

[00:08:39] I tried to steer toward family law because I felt like my background as a prosecutor and doing child support enforcement and domestic violence lended itself more to child support from a standpoint of helping people sort out those details in a domestic situation. Domestic battery, those are often reasons people get divorced. So to me, it had a direct link. So I felt more at home in those cases.

[00:09:09] Doing criminal defense, I was pretty selective about taking things where people knew what they were charged with. They were planning to resolve by pleading guilty and trying to negotiate the consequences. So operator never licensed, operating while intoxicated, not early domestic abuse or things like that.

[00:09:31] So in 10 months, I didn't have a lot of criminal caseload and certainly nothing that was very controversial. When you look back at your career, what cases really kind of stand out in your mind prior to the Richard Allen case? Despite Winnemack and Pulaski County being very rural, we did have major crime. And so I had a rape case that then became a case for conspiracy to commit murder.

[00:10:01] That was very interesting. I did have several murder cases, all of them pled except for one. And it was a three week trial. And it was tried jointly with myself and my chief deputy. We split up the duties very much like we did Richard Allen. But it was not a seven year investigation. So that simplified things. I had arson, a lot of child molesting as major families.

[00:10:29] But I would say the murder cases and the rape case with the murder for hire were probably the ones that are standouts. Can you tell us a little bit about that murder for hire case? Sure. It was a young man who was enamored with a young lady and they would see each other out at the local tavern. He was obviously interested in her and had kind of pursued her and she had turned him away. And he decided that he wanted to have sex with her.

[00:10:58] So he hid in her apartment. And when she arrived home, he was there. He was raping her. And she pulled a gun out of her nightstand and told him to get out of her house. Police were called. He was arrested. And while he was in jail, he made statements to other inmates that he wanted to hire someone to kill her so that she couldn't testify. So that became known to law enforcement. We had a state police.

[00:11:27] I don't know if he would be considered a detective. He was working the boats for gambling. And he volunteered to be to pose as someone that would be willing to be hired for murder. And the young man paid him with a baseball card collection. That was consideration. That was payment. And so we filed the charge. He did lead to both of those things. Can you tell us a little bit about this murder trial you mentioned? Yes.

[00:11:54] The murder trial happened on the very edge of our county. We got the call that there had been someone shot and killed. And it was a real question of was it Plaski County or Stark County. So it was right at the end of the business day. My chief deputy and I and our investigator get in the car. We go to the location because it was a big question of jurisdiction. Turned out to be in our jurisdiction.

[00:12:22] We had a lot of Indiana State Police support, very much like Richard Allen's case. So I believe we had four or five investigators with the state police with video or I'm sorry, audio recorders taking statements. It was it was a great situation to have that kind of support in such a small community. The man had shot his wife in the face. He just became angry with her and shot her.

[00:12:51] And then he left the house with his gun on his lawnmower, driving away from his trailer and confessing to shooting his wife. But he wanted to go to trial. And we did. You told us a little about Winnemac. What was White County in Monticello like? White County, I was familiar with.

[00:13:17] White County, I had family living there and I was good friends with Robert Guy, who was the elected. He had been a prosecutor longer than I. And we had become friends because of continuing education and proximity. So at the time I was ending my third term as the elected, I decided I didn't want to run for a prosecutor again and asked if I could be his chief deputy to move closer to family. And he was fine with that.

[00:13:46] And in that county, there's only all of the criminal docket is in one court, which is unique. They have a circuit court and a superior court, but all of the criminal stuff is in superior court. So it was pretty easy to keep a handle on everything that was going on for the prosecutor's office with it being all in one court, easy to schedule and predictable. So those were nice things. The crimes are about the same. The work was the same.

[00:14:15] When did you first meet now Carroll County prosecutor Nicholas McCleeland? And like, how do you guys know each other? So when I went to White County, that was a county that Nick McCleeland as a defense attorney would frequent. He was not someone who came up to Winamac. So that was a new acquaintance.

[00:14:35] I thought that he was very impressive in his preparation, his familiarity with the cases, knowing who his clients were when he arrived at court and being ready for whatever was scheduled. So that impressed me. And when we knew that when we I say myself and Mr.

[00:14:56] Guy knew that there was an opening for the prosecutor's office in Carroll County, we heavily encouraged him to step forward and take that opportunity. And then I'm going to about like February 2017. How did you first hear personally about what happened to Libby and Abby in Delphi? I would say news traveled pretty fast that the two girls that were missing were found the next day murdered.

[00:15:24] And as a prosecutor, we're paying attention to those kinds of things, especially when it happens so close to home. And so I would say it was word of mouth in the workplace. And then going to pretrial. Can you tell us about kind of coming into this case and coming to work for the Carroll County Prosecutors Office? You did you did mention that earlier, but, you know, sort of what did that journey look like for you? I knew the case. I knew that the murder happened.

[00:15:54] I knew that it was an investigation that was going on for a very long time. When Nick McLeiland made the decision to charge, I'm sure we had a conversation about it because that was a big event, not just for the general public, but as prosecutors to know that it had gotten to that point. I offered a lot of encouragement and assistance if it was needed or wanted.

[00:16:19] And then I just checked in with him, you know, on a monthly basis or every couple of months. Hey, how's it going? Do you need anything? Things like that. And then when it came to sort of joining the team and becoming like part of the case, what did that look like? And what made you want to to join up? It's obviously it's a it's a disturbing case. And it's also there's a lot of I don't know how to say this, like online and media nonsense surrounding it.

[00:16:48] So why did you want to get involved? I would say I didn't follow the investigation closely. I did not read the newspaper articles about it. And this may seem cynical, but my husband would try to tell me about things that were in the newspaper. And I said, I'm not interested because I don't know that it's factually correct. And that proved to be very true once I became close to the case and and knew the details. So I'm glad that I had not.

[00:17:18] And I believe I told Nick that when we discussed the possibility of coming on the case, I said, I don't I haven't really followed the details, but I'm interested in helping. It's a really important case. It's a lot of work. And I know that it's not something if I were the elected that I would feel comfortable doing it alone. And I think that was true for this case as well. So I did say to him, I am in private practice.

[00:17:46] But if you have the ability to hire other prosecutors, I'm interested. And I would close my practice today if you thought I was a good fit. In addition to the issues Anya mentioned with social media coming to a case this complicated late in the game, there is just so much material out there. As we sit on your desk behind you, there's a long row of binders full of papers.

[00:18:11] I'm guessing that only represents a tiny portion of all of the evidence and reports you have had to sift through. How did you get up to speed? That was a pretty interesting feat.

[00:18:26] And the nice thing was that I was coming into this case with my sole responsibility being Richard Allen in preparation, whereas Nick was still trying to do a caseload and all of his administrative duties. I had the luxury of spending 100% of my time getting up to speed. So I started with law enforcement reports and Richard Allen phone calls.

[00:18:55] So I was simultaneously listening to calls. I don't mean at the same time, but I was spending my time between listening to calls and reading law enforcement reports. And I just started at the very beginning for me. Chronological order is the best way for me to comprehend a situation. So I just started at the beginning.

[00:19:14] I read about 3000 pages and highlighted them so that if I needed to go back and reference, I downloaded it as a PDF so I could do a word search in my own make my own work product basically. And then with Richard Allen calls, I made handwritten notes of every phone call, what I thought was significant, what day it was, what time the call was. I just started working through the information. What struck you about those calls and then also the law enforcement reports as you sort of kind of getting into it?

[00:19:44] Were there any things that stood out to you early on? With regard to the calls, I did not know at that point that there had been any confessions. So really, I was starting on November 1st of 2023 when I officially came on the case, just trying to understand who is Richard Allen. And my feeling was the best way to do that was to listen to him, talk to his family. So I listened to every call and I took notes.

[00:20:13] And I think doing it that way did its job so that when it came to listening to confessions, I had a sense of who Richard Allen was and how he communicated with his family and what kinds of things he would talk to them about with regard to his experience incarcerated.

[00:20:30] And then with regard to the reports, I just wanted to know what did the scene look like when law enforcement got there and who were they able to talk to that was closest in time and place to what we knew had happened. So that when we when I got to the evidence that came later, I would be able to put it in perspective.

[00:20:54] But what kind of having listened to so much of Richard Allen and his interactions with his family, are there any takeaways that you kind of came away from that situation with like about his personality or what kind of person he is? I would say I'm not in a position to draw conclusions about how someone might categorize his personality.

[00:21:17] But I would say that when it came to making a judgment call about confession statements, specifically those made to his wife and to his mother, I can say that the bizarre behaviors that may have been documented by others who observed him while he was incarcerated.

[00:21:45] Those were not present when he spoke to his wife and his mother. What is it like starting to work on such a high profile case? I could say I was a little nervous at the beginning.

[00:21:56] I mean, as much as I wanted to be helpful and as much as I felt like I had a lot professionally to add to the prosecution of this case based on my past experience, not only just years of experience, but also the cases I had worked on in the responsibility of the prosecutor and elected prosecutor as well, because that adds to the responsibility.

[00:22:18] And I was nervous because I knew that there was a lot of animosity, I think, from some people and they were being very bold about contacting people involved like Nick McLean, Jerry Holman, the superintendent. And it was pretty concerning, some of it.

[00:22:42] And I thought, well, as soon as my name is put out there on this case, am I going to start to get that kind of feedback as well? But it didn't happen. I didn't have anyone contact me personally or by email and make any threats to me. So I was lucky. That's surprising, actually. I agree.

[00:23:03] I was braced and kind of ready for it to happen, trying to avoid putting, you know, lending any sort of invitation to that sort of thing. But it never happened. Were you familiar at all with the defense attorneys on this case? I'm speaking namely of Andrew Baldwin, Bradley Rosey and Jennifer Oje. I had never met or heard of Andrew Baldwin or Jennifer Oje because of proximity.

[00:23:32] I had had experience throughout my time as a lawyer with Brad Rosey because of his location of practice. He would be a person that would come to Pulaski County, White County. And so I was familiar. And then in terms of, you know, this prosecution team that forms, it's you, it's Nicholas McClelland and it's James Lettrell.

[00:23:57] And I was curious, you know, we talked a little bit about this with the other two prosecutors, but how did you end up dividing up what you were going to work on for trial? Sure. I knew James Lettrell because he had been a longtime prosecutor and he and I were both on the board for Indiana Prosecuting Attorney Council. So we had an opportunity beyond just being in the same place at the same time for continuing education to get to know one another. And he knew he had a great reputation, even though I had never seen his work.

[00:24:27] And when we got together to discuss who would do what, Nick knew that he wanted to take law enforcement. And I said, I'm happy to take trail people. And if you want me to do family, I will. At that point, we were undecided, but we pretty much expected we would need to call some of the family as witnesses. And so that that was the initial conversation. And Jim, in usual form, said, I'll take whatever you want me to take.

[00:24:59] So that's how he ended up with pathology and ballistics. And it worked out nice. I think it played on our strengths for each of us. And then because of my choice delving into the Richard Allen phone calls, and then as soon as we got the medical records, that was of interest to me. And I wanted to organize and read all of those. And so I said, I'll take Dr. Walla and Dr. Martin. It just seemed logical.

[00:25:24] And we were trying to make sure that no one person had a heavier load so as to diminish their ability to be prepared. We just really wanted it to make sense. How would you describe the team dynamics between the three of you as you're kind of preparing for this trial? I think we worked really well together. We each have our own style, I would say.

[00:25:46] But, you know, when you're talking about strategy and how to respond to defense motions, how to prepare for hearings in addition to trial. I mean, there was there was a lot to do. And it wasn't just trial. A lot of pretrial motions and topics to cover.

[00:26:06] We decided that we didn't want to miss anything and we didn't really mind duplicating research because we wanted the input of all of us so that we were vetting different ideas and approaches. And that worked out well for us. Jim was probably our most conservative and contributor.

[00:26:31] And he would be the one that would play devil's advocate, say, you know, well, if you want to go this route, what about that? So it really helped in deciding how to go forward on every aspect of the case. You said he was a devil's advocate. How would you characterize your role? I respond more emotionally to certain things like the Frank's motion or a motion to dismiss based on accusing law enforcement of being corrupt.

[00:27:00] I am eager to respond strongly. And I think that Jim Luttrell's influence would be how might we temper that? What do we want to maybe not respond to? And maybe our non-response is a response. So I would say in that fashion. Do you have any stories to share about just the deposition process in this case as we're in the pretrial phase?

[00:27:30] There were a lot of depositions. And they were happening very close to trial, which was, I would say, frustrating. Because you have a case that had been pending for a year. And the people being deposed were not new witnesses. They're witnesses that would have been known to both sides from the beginning for the most part.

[00:27:57] So I would say we, I personally felt frustrated that we were doing so many depositions so close to trial because it was a distraction from trial prep. I mean, in and of itself, it is trial prep as well. But it took a lot of time.

[00:28:12] And we made a decision that we were going to do our best to have two of us at every deposition just so that we had an additional person hearing what was being asked and what was being said so that we could have meaningful discussions about it. And then I know we talked about this a little bit beforehand, but in terms of your first like pretrial hearing where you were there and sort of presenting something, do you remember which one that was?

[00:28:40] The hearing in Allen County, the motion to dismiss for destruction of exculpatory evidence. Can you tell us about that? Because we were really impressed with it. I remember the first time I noticed you and you were, you did an incredible job. Well, thank you. Yes, that was the first time I was on record and there was a lot pending for that particular day. And so again, we divided it up and I was handling the motion to dismiss for destruction of exculpatory evidence.

[00:29:10] That was the allegation for the missing recordings from very early on. Luckily, I had started my research for the case at the very beginning. And so in talking about discovery and the difficulties of organizing themselves as law enforcement for all of the information they were trying to gather with the tips and investigation on the ground, you know, where the crime scene is.

[00:29:38] I mean, all of that's being juggled, you know, at the same time. And so I felt very strongly, as I said, I respond emotionally about the allegation that this was somehow on purpose and intended to cripple the defense or to keep information from them. So it was pretty easy to get excited about being involved in that regard.

[00:30:01] And then speaking with, you know, Steve Mullen about the difficulties of technology and trying to make it easy to use and available to all of these officers who were volunteering to come from all over the place. I mean, it really was far and wide to use equipment they're not familiar with. And it really was a function of technical difficulties that no one intended to have happen. So it was easy to prepare for.

[00:30:28] It was a mix of excitement and nervousness going to Allen County with Judge Gall, knowing that she works in a fast-paced court where things happen very quickly and there's a large volume. You know, their perspective toward the procedure is quite different than when you're in a small community. I wanted to ask you, because you mentioned, you know, law enforcement a number of times and working with Steve Mullen.

[00:30:53] You know, you got to work closely with some of the investigators with Unified Command. I was just wondering, what were your impression of these investigators and the work they did on this case? I, like others, I think that it's been said, we're not sure where Unified Command came from. I don't think it was a label they put on themselves or something they intended to be referred to or pinpointed, you know, the way that it has been.

[00:31:21] I think it was a group of officers that were allowed to have the inside knowledge about all of the intricacies of the case that really needed to be kept under wraps in order to protect the evidence, protect the investigation, to allow Nick McGleeland to make a good decision when charging was being made. So I was very impressed. I knew Jerry Holman. He's from the county where I live.

[00:31:50] His district works closely with White County as well as Carroll. So I knew Jerry Holman. I knew he was reputable and honest and hardworking. He's very well respected in our area. And the new faces that I met, I was similarly impressed with. Dave Vito, Brian Harshman, the list goes on and on.

[00:32:16] You worked with a lot of civilian witnesses who probably most of whom have never had to testify in court before. How do you get them ready for that experience? It's very different by comparison to preparing a law enforcement witness or let's say a specialized witness like someone who works for the lab or someone who's a psychologist. They just have a different background.

[00:32:42] So it's unique because you have to spend significantly more time with them explaining the process and making them comfortable with it. So that's what I needed to do with each of them. And each one's different. Each one comes with a different background, a different set of experiences. So you have to feel it out and find out what it is that will help them the most to be ready.

[00:33:09] I imagine it's especially difficult with like family members because you're wanting to talk about the worst day of their lives. Very true. There was a lot of sleepless nights leading up to trial prep for the family. I wanted to make sure that I developed the right relationship with them. You know, I have a job to do. These are things that I'm going to have to ask you.

[00:33:32] This is how the process works in court, you know, making them comfortable and making sure that I communicated with them that they could, you know, ask me anything they needed to in order to better prepare them for testifying, taking them to the courtroom.

[00:33:53] And that I was going to have to ask them things that might make them emotional, but that that was okay, that it was important for them to be able to tell what they know about the facts surrounding what happened. I guess, you know, I'm curious, just anything else about the pretrial phase? You know, what was it like kind of getting finally getting to like trial in October after, you know, it seemed kind of like a long time then suddenly it's there. What was that like emotionally for you?

[00:34:23] Well, the long hours and lack of sleep happened long before jury selection because we were doing preparation. And when you're working on a case like this, at least for me, I was totally consumed with the case because I needed to be. I didn't have a lot of time. It was a lot of information to catch up with. So I was working 10 hours a day on average. I spent my weekends in this case because I wanted to know the facts forwards and backwards.

[00:34:51] I would say the big stressors for me were making sure that I had good questions for the family that was going to put them at ease and make their testimony as comfortable as possible. I was really concerned about whether the defense would come out and be aggressive with them. And there was no way for me to know that. So it was really just mental preparation in case it happened.

[00:35:22] Luckily, it did not. With trail witnesses, again, these are young people. They were teenagers and they were great to work with. Very accommodating and understanding. Some of them quite nervous. I can remember a couple that were exceedingly nervous. And so I spent a lot of time with them just trying to put their mind at ease.

[00:35:42] A lot of time spent with preparation for Dr. Walla and Polly Westcott was really just me trying to absorb the information, understand it, reading it over and over again, making sure I understood concepts so that I was being effective at trial. How would you describe your style as a trial lawyer? I would say Nick and I have very similar styles. We like everything in binders. We like everything tabbed.

[00:36:06] I like to have an outline for my questions, not necessarily a word-for-word list, but ideas to get from point A to point B to keep me on track. I like to talk to all of my witnesses and give them an idea of the questions so they're not surprised. I think that that's the way our case played out in trial. You know, it's a lot easier to deal with the stress that comes with trial when you're prepared and organized.

[00:36:35] So we mentioned you did a lot of work with the families and the sort of civilian and trail witnesses. You know, we kind of touched upon some of this, but when we actually get to the trial and those are happening, what are the challenges around directing them in direct exams? I would say I think that it's harder to direct or cue lay witnesses like I had than it is witnesses that are there because it's connected to their profession.

[00:37:05] You know, law enforcement understands their role and, you know, elements of an offense or the different aspects of their specialization, like Christopher Cecil, for example. And when you're dealing with lay witnesses, it's less easy for them to kind of know where you're going, which is why you kind of want to give them a blueprint beforehand. So I would say that's a unique challenge to having lay witnesses.

[00:37:32] One of the witnesses that you worked with, as you mentioned, is Dr. Walla. Can you tell us about the challenges and your strategy as you prepped her? It was interesting. In that situation, we had a deposition with a defense counsel and it was with Fred Rosie. And we had between five and six hours of deposition at his office, at which time I indicated this.

[00:37:58] I can't really stay much longer than this. I think we need to reschedule to finish this. We did another three hours on another date. So that was nine hours of deposition. That was the first opportunity for any of us to question or speak with Dr. Walla. It was a very controlled setting, obviously. There's an attorney there on behalf of her employment. We also had, you know, support staff with us. So I pretty much expected that that was the only prep we were going to have.

[00:38:26] But at some point she had resigned from her position at Wabash Correctional Unit. And so then I had an opportunity to meet with her one more time prior to trial and then go through what I perceived to be my area of questioning and to be able to have a brief conversation about some concepts, you know, language that she would use or diagnosis to understand what it meant. So that was helpful.

[00:38:56] Thanks very much to Stacey Diener for taking the time to talk to us. We so appreciate it. Thanks so much for listening to The Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us at murdersheet at gmail.com. If you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[00:39:24] If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com slash murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www.buymeacoffee.com slash murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.

[00:39:48] Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for The Murder Sheet, and who you can find on the web at kevintg.com. If you're looking to talk with other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages.

[00:40:18] Thanks again for listening. Before we go, we just wanted to say another few words about Vaya. This is really a wonderful product. I think it's really helped both of us get a lot better rest. Vaya is pretty much, I guess you'd say, the only lifestyle hemp brand out there. So what does that mean? It means that they're all about crafting different products to elicit different moods.

[00:40:46] Kevin and I really like their non-THC CBD products. Specifically, Zen really helps me fall asleep. Some Zen can really just kind of help me get more into that state where I can relax and fall asleep pretty easily. And they've been such a wonderful support to us. They're a longtime sponsor. We really love working with them, and they really make this show possible. I'm going to say this. You may not realize this, but when you support our sponsors, you're supporting us, and it kind of makes it possible for us to do this show.

[00:41:14] So if you or one of your loved ones is interested in trying some of this stuff, you're going to get a great deal. It's very high quality, high value. Anya, if I wanted to get this discount you speak of, what do I do? Okay, if you're 21 and older, head to VayaHemp.com and use the code MSHEET to receive 15% off. And if you're new to Vaya, get a free gift of your choice. That's V-I-I-A, hemp.com, and use code MSHEET at checkout. Spell the code. M-S-H-E-E-T.

[00:41:44] And after you purchase, they're going to ask you, hey, where did you hear about us? Say the murder sheet because then it lets them know that our ads are effective, and it really helps us out. Can we talk a little bit before we go about Quintz, a great new sponsor for us? I think in one of the ads that we've already done for them, we talked about the compliments I'm getting on my jacket. I know you're a very modest woman, but can we talk about the compliments you're getting on the Quintz products you wear?

[00:42:14] Yeah, I've got two of their Mongolian cashmere sweaters. They're a brand that just does this sort of luxurious products but without the crazy costs really well. They give you Italian leather handbags. They do like European linen sheets. You have a really cool suede jacket, and I really like the way I look in my sweaters. I like the way you look in your bomber jacket. It looks super cool. You've gotten a lot of compliments when you go out wearing these sweaters. I think I have, yeah.

[00:42:43] And deservedly so. Also, I'm one of those people, my skin is very sensitive, so when it comes to wearing sweaters, sometimes something's too scratchy. It really bothers me. These are so soft. They're just very delicate and soft, and wearing them is lovely because they're super comfortable. It's not one of those things where you buy it and it looks great, but it doesn't feel that great. They look great. They feel great. But yeah, I really love them. And you got your cool jacket.

[00:43:13] I mean, that's a little bit of a – you're the guy who wears the same thing all the time, so this was a bit of a gamble for you, a bit of a risk. You got something a bit different. I do wash my clothes. I know you wash your clothes, but I mean – you're filthy. You just made me sound awful. So no, I wash my clothes. But you don't really – I laundry them. You don't really experiment with fashion that much is what I'm saying. So this is a little bit out of the norm for you, but I think you really like it and it looks good. Thank you. Great products, incredible prices. Absolutely. Quince.com.

[00:43:42] There you go. So you can go to Quince.com slash msheet. And right now they're offering 365-day returns plus free shipping on your order. So that's Quince.com slash msheet. That's Quince.com slash msheet. Quince.com slash msheet. Before we wrap up this episode, can we take just a moment to say a few more words about our great new sponsor, Acorns? Yeah. Thanks so much to Acorns. Remember, when you support our sponsors, you're supporting us.

[00:44:11] And our sponsors make it possible for us to do this job. So we really appreciate them. We love our sponsors. Absolutely. Acorns is a terrific investing app. It's the perfect thing for somebody who wants to get started with their personal finance journey. They can seem daunting. It is daunting. I'm so not financially minded. For me, it's always really hard to get started with something like this where you're like, what am I doing? But Acorns sort of takes the guesswork out of that.

[00:44:39] It gets you started and it will essentially help you take control of your financial future. You can get set up pretty quickly and it allows you to start automatically saving and investing. That money can help you, your kids, if you have a family, your retirement. And you don't need to be rich. You don't need to be an expert to do this. It's very simple. And you can start with only $5 or whatever change you have. It's not like you need to put in some massive payment.

[00:45:05] So it's a great fit for people who are starting out, but they want to take the next step and improve themselves financially and make their money work for them more. So if you're interested, head to acorns.com slash msheet or download the Acorns app to start saving and investing for your future today. Paid non-client endorsement. Compensation provides incentive to positively promote Acorns. Tier 1 compensation provided. Investing involved risk. Acorns Advisors LLC and SEC Registered Investment Advisor.

[00:45:34] You important disclosures at acorns.com slash msheet.