The Delphi Murders: First Person: Lieutenant Jerry Holeman: Part One

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Content Warning. This episode contains discussion of the brutal murder of two girls. It also contains profanity.

[00:00:08] [SPEAKER_00]: Today we will be hearing directly from one of the lead investigators in the Delphi Murders case, Lieutenant Jerry Holeman of the Indiana State Police.

[00:00:17] [SPEAKER_00]: He was on this investigation from the beginning and played a crucial role, working within Unified Command to seek a resolution.

[00:00:24] [SPEAKER_00]: The members of Unified Command were tasked with solving the brutal murders of 14-year-old Liberty German and 13-year-old Abigail Williams, two best friends who were abducted and murdered in Delphi, Indiana, in 2017.

[00:00:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Unified Command was a team of investigators and personnel made up of individuals from the Indiana State Police, the Carroll County Sheriff's Office, the Carroll County Prosecutor's Office, and several volunteers who all worked on the case.

[00:00:55] [SPEAKER_01]: They ran down lead after lead for years, until volunteer Kathy Schenck found the crucial tip sheet about Richard Allen and the whole thing broke open.

[00:01:07] [SPEAKER_00]: After that, it fell to Lieutenant Holeman and the others to investigate Allen.

[00:01:11] [SPEAKER_00]: They did so, putting together a case that resulted in a successful conviction this past November.

[00:01:17] [SPEAKER_00]: With the lifting of the gag order, Lieutenant Holeman is now free to speak with us about the experience of investigating the case.

[00:01:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Some background.

[00:01:27] [SPEAKER_00]: Lieutenant Holeman graduated from the 61st Indiana State Police Recruit Academy and has worked for the state police since 2001.

[00:01:35] [SPEAKER_00]: He was promoted to become a detective in 2009.

[00:01:38] [SPEAKER_00]: This past year, he was promoted to lieutenant.

[00:01:40] [SPEAKER_00]: He has undergone trainings around narcotics operations, drug intelligence, informant development and management, undercover techniques, hostage negotiations, crisis interventions, assessing criminal behavior, and the Reed Interview School.

[00:01:55] [SPEAKER_00]: And he also graduated from the Federal Bureau of Investigations National Academy.

[00:02:00] [SPEAKER_00]: In this interview, he will discuss the challenges of this investigation, the lead involving Keg and Klein, and Lieutenant Holeman's own interactions with Allen.

[00:02:10] [SPEAKER_00]: This will be the first of two episodes featuring Lieutenant Holeman.

[00:02:15] [SPEAKER_01]: This marks the beginning of our first-person interview series.

[00:02:19] [SPEAKER_01]: We will seek to interview as many of the individuals with firsthand experience in this case as possible in the coming weeks and months.

[00:02:26] [SPEAKER_01]: If you had a direct role in the case and are open to speaking with us, please email us at murdersheet at gmail dot com.

[00:02:35] [SPEAKER_01]: This is part of our ongoing efforts to report on the Delphi murders.

[00:02:39] [SPEAKER_01]: For years, we have not gotten the chance to hear directly from some of the principal figures in the case.

[00:02:44] [SPEAKER_01]: That all changes now.

[00:02:47] [SPEAKER_00]: My name is Anya Kane.

[00:02:48] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm a journalist.

[00:02:49] [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm Kevin Greenlee.

[00:02:50] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm an attorney.

[00:02:52] [SPEAKER_01]: And this is The Murder Sheet.

[00:02:53] [SPEAKER_01]: We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases.

[00:03:00] [SPEAKER_01]: We're The Murder Sheet.

[00:03:02] [SPEAKER_00]: And this is The Delphi Murders.

[00:03:05] [SPEAKER_00]: First Person.

[00:03:06] [SPEAKER_00]: Lieutenant Jerry Holeman.

[00:03:08] [SPEAKER_00]: Part One.

[00:03:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Can you tell us a little bit about your background?

[00:03:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Sure.

[00:03:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I grew up in the White County area.

[00:04:00] [SPEAKER_02]: I lived in most of my teenage years in Reynolds, Indiana, and Monon.

[00:04:06] [SPEAKER_02]: I graduated in 1989 from North White High School, which is located up in Monon.

[00:04:12] [SPEAKER_02]: After that, I joined the Marine Corps.

[00:04:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Shortly after that, probably in the fall of 1989, I went to Marine Corps boot camp out in San Diego, California.

[00:04:19] [SPEAKER_02]: After that, I did some more training in California and then went to Fort Sill, Oklahoma for field artillery training.

[00:04:26] [SPEAKER_02]: I was a 0811.

[00:04:28] [SPEAKER_01]: What's an 0811?

[00:04:29] [SPEAKER_02]: It's a field artillery cannoneer.

[00:04:31] [SPEAKER_02]: So I basically shot howitzers, loaded them, things like that.

[00:04:36] [SPEAKER_02]: Cannons, basically, if people don't know what howitzers are.

[00:04:39] [SPEAKER_02]: From there, I went to Camp Lejeune, North Carolina, where I spent a majority of my time.

[00:04:43] [SPEAKER_02]: I was first assigned to Fox Battery, 2nd Marine, 10th Division.

[00:04:48] [SPEAKER_02]: In that time, I got married probably a year, year and a half after I joined the Marine Corps.

[00:04:53] [SPEAKER_02]: My wife was three months pregnant when I went on my first deployment.

[00:04:57] [SPEAKER_02]: It was supposed to be for six months.

[00:04:58] [SPEAKER_02]: We were going to, we call them pumps, where we fly to Okinawa and we train over there.

[00:05:04] [SPEAKER_02]: Spent very little time in Okinawa.

[00:05:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Went to the Philippines for a little bit.

[00:05:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Went back to Okinawa and the day that we were supposed to fly home, we flew to Saudi Arabia because that was 1991.

[00:05:17] [SPEAKER_02]: End of 1990, beginning of 91 when the Gulf War, the ground war kicked off.

[00:05:23] [SPEAKER_02]: So they needed more artillery support.

[00:05:25] [SPEAKER_02]: So we went over there, flew to Saudi Arabia, ended up moving up into Kuwait.

[00:05:30] [SPEAKER_02]: And I believe just into Iraq.

[00:05:33] [SPEAKER_02]: And that was during January, December, January, February of 90, end of 91.

[00:05:41] [SPEAKER_02]: After that, came home, stayed in North Carolina.

[00:05:47] [SPEAKER_02]: And I went on two Mediterranean floats.

[00:05:49] [SPEAKER_02]: We call them med floats.

[00:05:50] [SPEAKER_02]: You're on a U.S. vessel and you float around the Mediterranean.

[00:05:54] [SPEAKER_02]: We go train with different countries like Turkey, Italy, Greece, Albania, Spain, just to name a few.

[00:06:03] [SPEAKER_02]: I can't remember all of them, but I did two med floats.

[00:06:06] [SPEAKER_02]: One was on the USS Gunston Hall.

[00:06:08] [SPEAKER_02]: That was my first one.

[00:06:09] [SPEAKER_02]: And the second one, I was aboard the USS Saipan.

[00:06:12] [SPEAKER_02]: And I reenlisted and then it was honorably discharged in 1997.

[00:06:19] [SPEAKER_02]: After that, I wanted to be a state trooper.

[00:06:23] [SPEAKER_02]: I wanted to get into law enforcement.

[00:06:24] [SPEAKER_02]: My father was in law enforcement.

[00:06:26] [SPEAKER_02]: He was a town marshal of Reynolds and also corrections officer at White County.

[00:06:32] [SPEAKER_02]: And ended up becoming the director of community corrections when they started that and when they first started that in White County.

[00:06:40] [SPEAKER_02]: So I kind of had an idea after being in the Marine Corps.

[00:06:43] [SPEAKER_02]: And what my dad did, I wanted to get into law enforcement.

[00:06:47] [SPEAKER_02]: But I didn't really want to go city or county.

[00:06:50] [SPEAKER_02]: I did apply for a few.

[00:06:51] [SPEAKER_02]: But I really wanted to be a state trooper.

[00:06:54] [SPEAKER_02]: I had some people, retired Lieutenant Jay Jenke, Sergeant Kim Riley, some of those people, Al Strange.

[00:07:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Those are some troopers that I knew growing up that my dad would hang around.

[00:07:05] [SPEAKER_02]: And I always thought, that's what I want to be.

[00:07:07] [SPEAKER_02]: I want to be like those guys.

[00:07:08] [SPEAKER_02]: But at the time I got out of the Marine Corps, you had to have 40 credit hours.

[00:07:12] [SPEAKER_02]: And I didn't have any college at the time.

[00:07:14] [SPEAKER_02]: So I went to work at Wabash National, which is a trailer factory in Lafayette.

[00:07:20] [SPEAKER_02]: My father-in-law at the time was a supervisor over the used trailer department.

[00:07:26] [SPEAKER_02]: And they would hire a bunch of people through the temporary services.

[00:07:30] [SPEAKER_02]: And I went through the temporary service.

[00:07:32] [SPEAKER_02]: And I worked there for him for six months.

[00:07:34] [SPEAKER_02]: And then I got hired on full-time at Wabash, went and worked a line and ended up in Metal Fab.

[00:07:40] [SPEAKER_02]: But I just, I didn't enjoy it.

[00:07:41] [SPEAKER_02]: I didn't feel like it was rewarding.

[00:07:43] [SPEAKER_02]: I was doing the same thing.

[00:07:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Just coming out of the Marine Corps where you're doing all kinds of traveling and doing all kinds of exciting things and serving your country.

[00:07:50] [SPEAKER_02]: It was kind of a drop-off.

[00:07:52] [SPEAKER_02]: So then I really knew I wanted to get into law enforcement.

[00:07:56] [SPEAKER_02]: So I went back to Purdue for a little while.

[00:07:59] [SPEAKER_02]: I kind of thought, well, if I don't want to be a police officer, maybe I'll be a school teacher.

[00:08:03] [SPEAKER_02]: So I went for education at first.

[00:08:06] [SPEAKER_02]: I did a couple semesters at Purdue.

[00:08:08] [SPEAKER_02]: It was extremely difficult because I was working at 11 p.m. to 7 a.m.

[00:08:12] [SPEAKER_02]: And then not every day, but I would go substitute teaching from like 8 to 3.30, take a nap.

[00:08:19] [SPEAKER_02]: And then I had night classes.

[00:08:21] [SPEAKER_02]: I had two night classes.

[00:08:22] [SPEAKER_02]: So I'd go to my night classes, which usually started at 7 or 8 and ended at 9 or 10.

[00:08:27] [SPEAKER_02]: And then I'd go right to work and try to get a nap in here or there.

[00:08:31] [SPEAKER_02]: But at some point around 2000, I think it was the summer of 2000, I call him my neighbor, but we live out in the middle of nowhere.

[00:08:39] [SPEAKER_02]: So Kim Riley lived about a mile and a half, maybe three cornfields over.

[00:08:46] [SPEAKER_02]: And then my wife, where she grew up, they were neighbors.

[00:08:50] [SPEAKER_02]: So my wife would babysit Kim Riley's kids when he was younger.

[00:08:53] [SPEAKER_02]: And he'd always stop by or see me mowing the roadsides and ask if I was still interested in being a state trooper.

[00:09:00] [SPEAKER_02]: And I said, yeah, I'm still working on it.

[00:09:03] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, I'm working full-time job going back to school part-time.

[00:09:05] [SPEAKER_02]: And he said that the state police was going to use, if you had a certain amount of time in the military, you could use that in lieu of the 40 credit hours.

[00:09:15] [SPEAKER_02]: And I said, well, if that happens, bring me an application, I'll apply right away.

[00:09:18] [SPEAKER_02]: And he did one day, pulled out a, you know, this is before internet and laptops and everything in 2000.

[00:09:26] [SPEAKER_02]: They're, you know, kicking off.

[00:09:28] [SPEAKER_02]: But he brought me a written application and I filled it out and went, started the process of like June, I believe, June of 2000.

[00:09:37] [SPEAKER_02]: And got hired with the state police in January of 2001 is when I started.

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[00:11:18] [SPEAKER_00]: So tell us a bit about your career with the state police and how you sort of rose up the ranks with that.

[00:11:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Sure.

[00:11:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Like I said, I was selected to go to the academy in January of 2001.

[00:11:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Graduated in June of 2001.

[00:11:33] [SPEAKER_02]: I was appointed to the Lafayette District as a road trooper.

[00:11:37] [SPEAKER_02]: So everybody that comes through the state police, no matter where they are now, starts as enforcement or road trooper.

[00:11:44] [SPEAKER_02]: And I did that for about five years.

[00:11:46] [SPEAKER_02]: I worked White and Carroll counties.

[00:11:48] [SPEAKER_02]: I worked mid-shift and night shift.

[00:11:50] [SPEAKER_02]: So mid-shift back then would have been like 2p to 10.30.

[00:11:56] [SPEAKER_02]: And then night shift would have been 10 p.m. to – or late shift would have been 10 p.m. to 6.30 a.m.

[00:12:02] [SPEAKER_02]: So I worked those shifts a lot.

[00:12:04] [SPEAKER_02]: So I got a lot of experience with OWI investigations, drug investigations, things like that.

[00:12:11] [SPEAKER_02]: And then in 2004 or 5, I was sent to a methamphetamine clandestine lab training.

[00:12:20] [SPEAKER_02]: And I was able to identify meth labs and dismantle them.

[00:12:25] [SPEAKER_02]: And at that time we had a part-time team.

[00:12:28] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think sometime in 2005 or 2006, the law changed to where you had to sign for the pseudephedrine.

[00:12:36] [SPEAKER_02]: And if you bought too much, then that was a crime.

[00:12:39] [SPEAKER_02]: But it also was a lead for us to find out who was manufacturing methamphetamine illegally in the communities.

[00:12:47] [SPEAKER_02]: So in 2006, I was a full-time meth suppression guy for the Lafayette Post.

[00:12:53] [SPEAKER_02]: And I did that for about three years, did a lot of training, a lot of investigative experience interviews,

[00:13:00] [SPEAKER_02]: following up on people that basically were buying pseudephedrine for people to make methamphetamine.

[00:13:07] [SPEAKER_02]: And so I worked hand in hand with the drug enforcement section.

[00:13:12] [SPEAKER_02]: And like I said, I did that until 2009.

[00:13:15] [SPEAKER_02]: I really enjoyed that job.

[00:13:16] [SPEAKER_02]: It was just nobody wanted to deal drugs or make meth, you know, nine to five.

[00:13:20] [SPEAKER_02]: So it was always an inconvenient, you know, two in the morning or on your birthday or your wedding anniversary or Christmas.

[00:13:27] [SPEAKER_02]: And so after three years of doing that, I just kind of thought my services would be better and better enjoyed regular investigation.

[00:13:36] [SPEAKER_02]: So I put in for a promotion to district detective is what we call them.

[00:13:40] [SPEAKER_02]: And I got that promotion in 2009.

[00:13:44] [SPEAKER_02]: So I was a district detective.

[00:13:45] [SPEAKER_02]: District detectives work a little bit of everything, you know, child molest cases, bank robberies, homicides, officer-involved shootings, financial crimes, internet crimes.

[00:13:58] [SPEAKER_02]: So I did that for about five years.

[00:14:00] [SPEAKER_02]: And then in 2014, I was promoted to sergeant and I was assigned as the investigative squad leader.

[00:14:09] [SPEAKER_02]: The investigative squad leader does a lot of the day-to-day supervision of the detectives.

[00:14:16] [SPEAKER_02]: And we, back then, I think we had between four and six detectives at a time.

[00:14:21] [SPEAKER_02]: And you're just responsible for reviewing their reports, making sure that they have the training and resources available to do their job.

[00:14:30] [SPEAKER_02]: And as a sergeant, you still worked a lot of cases with them as well.

[00:14:34] [SPEAKER_02]: And I only did that for two years.

[00:14:35] [SPEAKER_02]: And then I was promoted to the district investigative commander, the rank of first sergeant.

[00:14:41] [SPEAKER_02]: And the first sergeant basically oversees the sergeant, but he also oversees all other investigations that even troopers do.

[00:14:50] [SPEAKER_02]: So you have the ISL that you're responsible for.

[00:14:54] [SPEAKER_02]: You work with the road sergeants and their troopers to make sure that they're doing the reports correctly in a timely manner and getting to the prosecutor for their review.

[00:15:03] [SPEAKER_02]: And also making sure they have any resources they need to do a thorough investigation.

[00:15:07] [SPEAKER_02]: And I did that from 2016 to 2024, where in March of 24, I was promoted to the rank of lieutenant and I was the area one investigative commander.

[00:15:20] [SPEAKER_02]: The area one investigative commander covers area one, which is the Peru post, the Lafayette post and the Lowell post.

[00:15:30] [SPEAKER_02]: And basically, I supervise the district investigative commanders and make sure same thing you do as a district investigative commander, but you just have a bigger area.

[00:15:40] [SPEAKER_02]: And just make sure that they have the resources, training and other logistic such as travel.

[00:15:50] [SPEAKER_02]: If they're going to travel out of state, you organize that.

[00:15:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Just make sure that they have the tools necessary to be able to do their job.

[00:15:56] [SPEAKER_02]: And that's what I've been doing since March of 2024.

[00:16:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Let's go back a minute to 2017.

[00:16:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Of course, in February of that year, Liberty German and Abigail Williams were murdered and you became involved in that investigation.

[00:16:13] [SPEAKER_01]: How did you happen to become involved in that case?

[00:16:16] [SPEAKER_02]: I was in charge of all district investigations.

[00:16:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Actually, I was on my way to work.

[00:16:21] [SPEAKER_02]: I had an office at the Lafayette post and I heard on the radio that there was two missing girls in Delphi.

[00:16:29] [SPEAKER_02]: So I immediately called Sheriff Lesenby at the time and asked him what was going on.

[00:16:35] [SPEAKER_02]: And he basically said that two young females went missing.

[00:16:39] [SPEAKER_02]: They were supposed to be on a trail and picked up on the 13th.

[00:16:45] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think he said that pretty much had a bunch of volunteers over there and didn't really need any assistance at that time.

[00:16:53] [SPEAKER_02]: That was probably eight in the morning on my way to the post.

[00:16:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Later, I was contacted by a retired captain, Dave Kirkham.

[00:17:02] [SPEAKER_02]: He was the area captain.

[00:17:05] [SPEAKER_02]: And he asked me if I knew what was going on.

[00:17:06] [SPEAKER_02]: I said, yeah, I heard there was two girls missing in Delphi.

[00:17:10] [SPEAKER_02]: I reached out to the sheriff at this time.

[00:17:12] [SPEAKER_02]: He said he had enough help.

[00:17:13] [SPEAKER_02]: He said, well, they're requesting a helicopter.

[00:17:16] [SPEAKER_02]: So we need boots on the ground, so to speak.

[00:17:18] [SPEAKER_02]: We need you to go over there and give us some feedback of what's going on.

[00:17:21] [SPEAKER_02]: So I went over there.

[00:17:22] [SPEAKER_02]: I was familiar with Sheriff Lesenby, worked some cases, worked with him when he worked the road.

[00:17:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Same thing with Tony Liggett.

[00:17:28] [SPEAKER_02]: I knew of Tony and Kevin Hammond.

[00:17:32] [SPEAKER_02]: So I saw all three of them.

[00:17:33] [SPEAKER_02]: I met with them and we discussed what was going on.

[00:17:36] [SPEAKER_02]: They had a large amount of people there volunteering to go search and I had nothing to do with that.

[00:17:42] [SPEAKER_02]: They were organizing, having people sign in and things like that.

[00:17:45] [SPEAKER_02]: So I probably got there between 11, 1130.

[00:17:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Shortly after that, around 12, 12 p.m., we were notified that two girls were located in the woods near the Monon High Bridge.

[00:18:01] [SPEAKER_02]: So I went, actually, my car was blocked in.

[00:18:04] [SPEAKER_02]: So I rode out with a FBI agent at that time named Rich Davies.

[00:18:08] [SPEAKER_02]: And we went to the scene.

[00:18:10] [SPEAKER_02]: There was already some police officers there, not very many.

[00:18:13] [SPEAKER_02]: But I went down to the bottom of the hill.

[00:18:15] [SPEAKER_02]: And later, Sergeant Buckley, he took over as the ISL for me when I got promoted to DIC.

[00:18:26] [SPEAKER_02]: And him and I met with, at some point, we met with Tony Liggett and Kevin Hammond.

[00:18:34] [SPEAKER_02]: And we were asking, you know, do you want to work, do you want to be the lead in this or do you want us to be the lead in it and things like that?

[00:18:41] [SPEAKER_02]: So we worked out the logistics of that and got some crime scene tape up and started the investigation from there.

[00:18:49] [SPEAKER_00]: Can you tell us a little bit about how brutal this crime was against these two young girls?

[00:18:56] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I would say it was very brutal.

[00:19:01] [SPEAKER_02]: Two young girls had their throats slit.

[00:19:04] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, Abby, one time.

[00:19:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Libby, depending on how you look at it, at least three or four times, several times.

[00:19:13] [SPEAKER_02]: And then they were just treated like animals.

[00:19:16] [SPEAKER_02]: They were left in the woods with sticks on them.

[00:19:18] [SPEAKER_02]: Libby was completely naked.

[00:19:21] [SPEAKER_02]: Abby was naked at some point or had some of her clothes off.

[00:19:25] [SPEAKER_02]: She had some of Liberty's clothes on.

[00:19:27] [SPEAKER_02]: And like I said, Richard Allen treated these two like animals.

[00:19:32] [SPEAKER_02]: You don't treat humans like that.

[00:19:34] [SPEAKER_02]: He embarrassed them.

[00:19:35] [SPEAKER_02]: He controlled them with a gun.

[00:19:38] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, so it was brutal.

[00:19:39] [SPEAKER_02]: I think with my background as a Marine, I've become compartmentalized a little bit.

[00:19:44] [SPEAKER_02]: And scenes like that don't really bother me as much.

[00:19:47] [SPEAKER_02]: So I wasn't like, oh, my God.

[00:19:49] [SPEAKER_02]: I was more like angry that someone would treat two human beings, two innocent young girls like that.

[00:19:54] [SPEAKER_02]: I just I'll never be able to understand how somebody could treat two people like that.

[00:19:59] [SPEAKER_02]: So I was more angry about that than in all of the brutal, horrific crime that it was just because I become a little bit callous to it with eight years in the Marine Corps.

[00:20:13] [SPEAKER_02]: And at that time, 20, 15, 20 years as a state trooper, you just unfortunately get used to that.

[00:20:20] [SPEAKER_00]: So you mentioned that, you know, from the get go, you guys were working this with the Carroll County Sheriff's Office and there were other agencies involved as well.

[00:20:28] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm just wondering, you know, you worked it for so many years.

[00:20:33] [SPEAKER_00]: What was working in the beginning like and how did that change over time?

[00:20:37] [SPEAKER_00]: Sort of what sort of what did the workflow look like for you?

[00:20:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[00:20:41] [SPEAKER_02]: I think, like I said, we established early on that it was going to be the county's case.

[00:20:46] [SPEAKER_02]: Initially, ISP agreed to assist with the FBI.

[00:20:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Steve Mullins was the chief of Delphi.

[00:20:54] [SPEAKER_02]: And I remember standing at the bottom of the hill, talking to Kevin and Tony and asking them, like I said earlier, you know, you, you guys want to be the lead on this or do you want us to?

[00:21:04] [SPEAKER_02]: And I can't remember which one, but one of them said, you guys should probably take it.

[00:21:07] [SPEAKER_02]: And the other one's like, well, let's talk to the sheriff.

[00:21:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Sheriff come down and said, Hey, I think we're going to take it, but will you support us and give us all the resources that we need that the state police have so that we don't have?

[00:21:19] [SPEAKER_02]: And I said, absolutely.

[00:21:20] [SPEAKER_02]: I said, we're not going to leave you hanging on this.

[00:21:22] [SPEAKER_02]: We're going to be in this with you from day one until the end.

[00:21:26] [SPEAKER_02]: So we did, you know, initially, like I said, it was a small group, but within days, every surrounding county, every seemed like every county, every agency wanted to help.

[00:21:38] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, they're just, it just hit the media, hit social media and everybody wanted, you know, they had good intentions and they wanted to help.

[00:21:48] [SPEAKER_02]: And they did help.

[00:21:49] [SPEAKER_02]: And it just become a managerial nightmare at times because you don't, as a state trooper.

[00:21:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:21:55] [SPEAKER_02]: I have authority over them, but I don't have authority over the county or the FBI or, you know, so when you ask for reports or you ask somebody to do something, you don't know their strengths and weaknesses.

[00:22:07] [SPEAKER_02]: So it just got a little bit frustrating at how difficult it was at times to manage.

[00:22:13] [SPEAKER_02]: But again, how are you going to tell people not to help you find the killer of two innocent young girls?

[00:22:20] [SPEAKER_02]: So after a few years, it started calming down a little bit.

[00:22:25] [SPEAKER_02]: A lot of people had to get back to, you can only hit the pause button so long.

[00:22:28] [SPEAKER_02]: So other agencies had to start pulling back the resources that they were given, including the FBI.

[00:22:35] [SPEAKER_02]: The FBI had some turnover rate where I know Mike Peasley was transferred.

[00:22:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Rich Davies had retired.

[00:22:42] [SPEAKER_02]: We've got a few other people in and out of there, but, you know, they had other things to do as well.

[00:22:46] [SPEAKER_02]: But anytime we'd ask them, anytime we asked the FBI, you know, we were able to get assistance if needed.

[00:22:53] [SPEAKER_02]: And I can still call those guys today.

[00:22:55] [SPEAKER_02]: And I just had Mike Peasley call me a couple weeks ago asking for a couple troopers to help the FBI serve a search warrant.

[00:23:02] [SPEAKER_02]: And we did.

[00:23:04] [SPEAKER_02]: So, and Rich Davies ended up coming back after he retired as a special deputy to assist with the investigation.

[00:23:11] [SPEAKER_02]: So we still have good rapport with most of the agencies that we worked with, including the FBI.

[00:23:19] [SPEAKER_02]: I know there's some misconceptions there, but we, you know, everybody wanted to help and we wanted everybody's help.

[00:23:27] [SPEAKER_02]: But it was just turned into a little bit more than what we anticipated.

[00:23:32] [SPEAKER_00]: What unique challenges did you guys face in this case?

[00:23:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I think when people think about the case, they don't realize how far out in the middle of nowhere it occurred.

[00:23:44] [SPEAKER_02]: So we only had one video camera that was catching a little bit of traffic on a road near the scene.

[00:23:50] [SPEAKER_02]: There's very little evidence, you know, and I think that people get caught up with that.

[00:23:56] [SPEAKER_02]: But there's many crimes where you don't have DNA or you have insufficient amount of DNA.

[00:24:02] [SPEAKER_02]: That's not uncommon, but it is a challenge when you don't have the evidence.

[00:24:07] [SPEAKER_02]: And it became a very high profile case amongst the media nationwide.

[00:24:13] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, we were getting calls from everywhere, media outlets from Chicago, California, you know, talk shows.

[00:24:21] [SPEAKER_02]: So that's one of the things where it became challenging because you're trying to manage this.

[00:24:26] [SPEAKER_02]: And all the agencies involved made it somewhat challenging as well.

[00:24:34] [SPEAKER_02]: And not to mention that we had to move our command center three or four times.

[00:24:38] [SPEAKER_02]: We started just above the Delphi Police Department, moved to a better facility where our EMC building, the old RMC building, which was nice of them to let us use.

[00:24:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Then we moved back to the Delphi building and then we moved to another location, you know, and that was a challenge.

[00:24:59] [SPEAKER_02]: And just having a lot of people wanting to help, you know, we mentioned it, we talk about it all the time amongst us is you had a lot of people with good intentions, but you can't have an electrician do a plumber's job.

[00:25:12] [SPEAKER_02]: So that got a little bit chaotic there.

[00:25:16] [SPEAKER_02]: I always say, you know, it started out as chaos.

[00:25:19] [SPEAKER_02]: We got it to be controlled chaos.

[00:25:21] [SPEAKER_02]: And then as soon as we could, it was more manageable chaos.

[00:25:26] [SPEAKER_02]: It was still chaotic, but we were able to manage it.

[00:25:29] [SPEAKER_02]: The other thing that was challenging was the enormous number of tips, tips and leads.

[00:25:34] [SPEAKER_02]: We had well over 14,000 emails, calls, and our job was to leave notes unturned and we didn't.

[00:25:44] [SPEAKER_02]: So we would not only address those tips as they come in, but go back over and review it, have other agencies do a peer review.

[00:25:53] [SPEAKER_02]: And by doing that, we cleared a lot of people.

[00:25:55] [SPEAKER_02]: We also made a lot of unrelated arrests too.

[00:25:58] [SPEAKER_02]: So that was helpful.

[00:26:00] [SPEAKER_01]: How did the tips lead to arrests and unrelated cases?

[00:26:03] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, I always said that the public has an eye for bad people.

[00:26:07] [SPEAKER_02]: They know this person's bad, doesn't necessarily make him be the child murderer or whatever.

[00:26:12] [SPEAKER_02]: But we did help clear a cold case of murder.

[00:26:16] [SPEAKER_02]: We had a tip on a guy from the Peru area.

[00:26:18] [SPEAKER_02]: We passed that information on over to Peru district.

[00:26:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Bob Burgess took it and they were able to make an arrest from that.

[00:26:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Just going to people's houses, we would stumble upon meth labs.

[00:26:31] [SPEAKER_02]: People wanted on warrants.

[00:26:33] [SPEAKER_02]: People doing things they shouldn't be doing at the time when we went to interview them.

[00:26:37] [SPEAKER_02]: So those kind of some examples of how we made some arrests.

[00:26:42] [SPEAKER_01]: So some of the tips were obviously helpful, you know, even in ways they may not have been intended to be.

[00:26:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Were all of the tips helpful?

[00:26:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Not all of them.

[00:26:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Not all of them.

[00:26:52] [SPEAKER_02]: We did get a lot of unorthodox tips and some tips just didn't have enough information.

[00:27:00] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, we'd get a call saying, looks like the guy sounds like the guy, but they wouldn't tell us where or who or, you know, he's at the Walmart.

[00:27:09] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, what Walmart?

[00:27:09] [SPEAKER_02]: We didn't know if it was the state of Indiana or North Carolina.

[00:27:12] [SPEAKER_02]: So those were often not helpful.

[00:27:18] [SPEAKER_02]: We would get some just, like I said, off the wall type tips about the Sasquatches living under the bridge.

[00:27:25] [SPEAKER_02]: We should interview the Sasquatches and Pottawatomie Indians that live out there.

[00:27:30] [SPEAKER_02]: They observed this crime.

[00:27:33] [SPEAKER_02]: So you need to interview them.

[00:27:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Just things like that that just weren't helpful.

[00:27:38] [SPEAKER_02]: And then we got a lot of what I would refer to as investigative suggestions.

[00:27:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Like you should do this, you should do that.

[00:27:45] [SPEAKER_02]: And a lot of them we'd already done.

[00:27:46] [SPEAKER_02]: I can't remember anybody giving us a suggestion that we didn't think of.

[00:27:52] [SPEAKER_02]: Like some of them were good.

[00:27:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Like check all the sex offender register lists in the area.

[00:27:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Check all the cameras around the crime scene.

[00:28:02] [SPEAKER_02]: Interview everybody that lives out there.

[00:28:05] [SPEAKER_02]: Things like that that, you know, we'd already done multiple times.

[00:28:10] [SPEAKER_02]: But some of them were just a little bit crazy.

[00:28:13] [SPEAKER_02]: Like we should polygraph the guy on the bridge.

[00:28:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, use sodium pentothal on the guy on the bridge to make him tell the truth.

[00:28:23] [SPEAKER_02]: And just some things like that.

[00:28:26] [SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, we definitely, you take the good with the bad.

[00:28:30] [SPEAKER_02]: But we appreciated how much the public wanted to help.

[00:28:33] [SPEAKER_02]: It was just not locally, but nationwide.

[00:28:35] [SPEAKER_02]: We were getting tips all over.

[00:28:37] [SPEAKER_02]: And it was duly noted and very appreciated.

[00:28:42] [SPEAKER_00]: You mentioned the bridge guy.

[00:28:44] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm wondering, you know, can you speak a bit about the video found on Libby's phone

[00:28:48] [SPEAKER_00]: and how integral that ended up being to the case?

[00:28:51] [SPEAKER_02]: We were really confident that that guy on the bridge was the one person that murdered the girls

[00:28:57] [SPEAKER_02]: or had significant involvement in it.

[00:29:01] [SPEAKER_02]: And our main focus the whole time was trying to locate that person.

[00:29:07] [SPEAKER_02]: So it was very important for us to identify him.

[00:29:11] [SPEAKER_02]: And unfortunately, it took us a long time to do that.

[00:29:13] [SPEAKER_02]: But we did.

[00:29:15] [SPEAKER_01]: One thing I always wondered about was a couple of years into the case, there was this press

[00:29:22] [SPEAKER_01]: conference where it was announced that a new direction was being taken.

[00:29:27] [SPEAKER_01]: What was that about and what inspired it?

[00:29:29] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, like I said earlier, we had a lot of different agencies reviewing the case and we

[00:29:34] [SPEAKER_02]: had people giving their input.

[00:29:36] [SPEAKER_02]: And we're at the point where we weren't really getting any new information.

[00:29:41] [SPEAKER_02]: So we wanted to try a different approach.

[00:29:44] [SPEAKER_02]: And some of the suggestions were to speak directly to the killer and tell him that we

[00:29:48] [SPEAKER_02]: thought he was hiding in plain sight and trying to generate better tips.

[00:29:52] [SPEAKER_02]: I think a couple of times during press conferences, we put a poster board up saying, this is what

[00:29:57] [SPEAKER_02]: we need for a tip.

[00:29:59] [SPEAKER_02]: And I don't remember exactly what it was, but, you know, give us more information than just

[00:30:03] [SPEAKER_02]: sounds like my cousin looks like my cousin.

[00:30:05] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, where's your cousin live?

[00:30:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Is he tied to Delphi?

[00:30:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Do you, do you know?

[00:30:10] [SPEAKER_02]: And, and, and we understand that some people don't know all that information, but we were

[00:30:14] [SPEAKER_02]: just requesting more information to do.

[00:30:18] [SPEAKER_02]: And then, and then also we, we did the new sketch.

[00:30:21] [SPEAKER_02]: I and others always thought it was the same person, but because different witnesses saw

[00:30:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Richard Allen from different angles and different locations, different lighting, uh, the sketches

[00:30:32] [SPEAKER_02]: were different.

[00:30:32] [SPEAKER_02]: So we thought putting out this new sketch may give someone the same perception that the

[00:30:40] [SPEAKER_02]: witness had that day.

[00:30:42] [SPEAKER_02]: So we thought that that might help.

[00:30:44] [SPEAKER_02]: And I always thought it was just a younger version.

[00:30:46] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, if an older person sees someone a little younger, they're going to describe

[00:30:50] [SPEAKER_02]: them as a lot younger.

[00:30:52] [SPEAKER_02]: If a younger person sees somebody that's older than them, they may perceive him as older.

[00:30:57] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, I'm not a huge fan of the sketches.

[00:31:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, I know that they're not always reliable and witness statements sometimes get a little

[00:31:04] [SPEAKER_02]: messy and just because people aren't trained to be witnesses.

[00:31:09] [SPEAKER_02]: They're out there.

[00:31:10] [SPEAKER_02]: They don't know a crime's about to occur or a crime just occurred.

[00:31:13] [SPEAKER_02]: They're just out there enjoying the day.

[00:31:15] [SPEAKER_02]: So then when it comes down to seeing that, you know, kind of like, you know, a bank robbery,

[00:31:20] [SPEAKER_02]: you have four tellers, you're going to get four different descriptions.

[00:31:23] [SPEAKER_02]: But once they see that still photo from the surveillance video, they're really, yep, that's

[00:31:27] [SPEAKER_02]: the guy.

[00:31:28] [SPEAKER_02]: And they get angry at themselves for giving sometimes a poor description of that.

[00:31:33] [SPEAKER_02]: So I think that that's common with witnesses.

[00:31:36] [SPEAKER_02]: But again, we weren't going to leave any stone unturned.

[00:31:39] [SPEAKER_02]: We're going to try every avenue of approach to approach to this and try to find out who

[00:31:45] [SPEAKER_02]: did it.

[00:31:45] [SPEAKER_02]: And at the end of the day, we're focused on that photo that Lebby provided off her video.

[00:31:50] [SPEAKER_02]: That was who we were saying, you know, the superintendent said multiple times, don't focus

[00:31:55] [SPEAKER_02]: on the sketches, you know, focus on the video, you know, the clothing, the anything that that's

[00:32:02] [SPEAKER_02]: the guy we want to talk to.

[00:32:04] [SPEAKER_02]: So that was kind of the gist of the new direction.

[00:32:09] [SPEAKER_00]: You mentioned that you wanted to kind of confront this guy or speak directly to him through that

[00:32:14] [SPEAKER_00]: press conference.

[00:32:15] [SPEAKER_00]: Behind the scenes, what sort of things were you guys as investigators talking about when you're

[00:32:18] [SPEAKER_00]: thinking about, you know, what kind of person did this in terms of characteristics that he

[00:32:23] [SPEAKER_00]: might have?

[00:32:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Sure.

[00:32:26] [SPEAKER_02]: I think through our investigation and some of the outside peer reviews, we thought it was

[00:32:31] [SPEAKER_02]: somebody that was a power assertive or a controlled person.

[00:32:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Some of the BAU and some of these other agencies that kind of reviewed it said that it more than

[00:32:43] [SPEAKER_02]: likely was someone with limited or no criminal history.

[00:32:47] [SPEAKER_02]: Some people said it was somebody that was introverted and didn't get out or lived in their

[00:32:51] [SPEAKER_02]: parents' basement.

[00:32:52] [SPEAKER_02]: But it was somebody that had that controlling demeanor of them that wanted to be in control.

[00:33:00] [SPEAKER_02]: So that's kind of what we were thinking.

[00:33:02] [SPEAKER_02]: At the time of this press conference, we did not have any indication or any evidence leading

[00:33:08] [SPEAKER_02]: us to believe that it was Richard Allen.

[00:33:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Not at that time.

[00:33:11] [SPEAKER_02]: We just didn't.

[00:33:11] [SPEAKER_02]: So we were just kind of working off of what the behavioral analysis units were telling us

[00:33:19] [SPEAKER_02]: from the FBI.

[00:33:21] [SPEAKER_02]: Can't remember if the U.S.

[00:33:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Marshals were involved at that time yet or not, but their BAU did analysis on the information.

[00:33:28] [SPEAKER_02]: And then we had another group from the Sherry Black Foundation, a couple of former psychiatrists

[00:33:35] [SPEAKER_02]: and a former Pennsylvania state trooper that gave us an analysis.

[00:33:39] [SPEAKER_02]: So we were going off all that information and trying to figure out what type of person.

[00:33:45] [SPEAKER_02]: And that's what we come out with is it was a power assertive control freak, probably someone

[00:33:52] [SPEAKER_02]: who had his fantasies about sexually assaulting two young girls as well.

[00:33:59] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sure throughout this entire investigation, there were times when names came up and they

[00:34:05] [SPEAKER_01]: were looked at and then maybe dismissed or the public didn't even know about it.

[00:34:10] [SPEAKER_01]: But one name that the public did find out about was Kagan Klein.

[00:34:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Can you talk a little bit about him?

[00:34:18] [SPEAKER_02]: Sure.

[00:34:18] [SPEAKER_02]: I can't remember exactly how we got to tip, but I know it came through our ICAC, Indiana

[00:34:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Crimes Against Children.

[00:34:27] [SPEAKER_02]: They started working that case as somebody who was a child predator and was soliciting young

[00:34:35] [SPEAKER_02]: girls to meet him and get pictures.

[00:34:40] [SPEAKER_02]: And at some point we found out that he was communicating with Libby and some of her friends.

[00:34:46] [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, what we learned about Kagan is he was a pathological liar.

[00:34:53] [SPEAKER_02]: He was using a fake persona named Anthony shots to lure these girls in.

[00:35:00] [SPEAKER_02]: And we investigated him very thoroughly.

[00:35:03] [SPEAKER_02]: We spent countless hours, manpower and resources on him.

[00:35:08] [SPEAKER_02]: And at the end of the day, we just were not able to establish probable cause in this case.

[00:35:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Do I think he was communicating with the girls?

[00:35:16] [SPEAKER_02]: And that may be one of the reasons why they showed up on the bridge.

[00:35:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.

[00:35:20] [SPEAKER_02]: But that doesn't mean that he's responsible for murdering them.

[00:35:24] [SPEAKER_02]: We, we've exhausted every investigative technique we could and just couldn't establish that probable

[00:35:33] [SPEAKER_02]: cause that he's involved.

[00:35:34] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think he kind of to get jailhouse cred or whatever took, took his opportunity and

[00:35:42] [SPEAKER_02]: tried to get his 15 minutes of fame by doing some interviews and saying some things that

[00:35:46] [SPEAKER_02]: weren't necessarily true.

[00:35:48] [SPEAKER_02]: But that's my take on Kagan Klein.

[00:35:51] [SPEAKER_02]: I think other people might have a different perception of that, but.

[00:35:55] [SPEAKER_00]: So things like the red Jeep that he traveled to the crime scene in, you know, that you guys

[00:36:00] [SPEAKER_00]: were not able to find on any footage, like you have to go where the evidence is.

[00:36:03] [SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[00:36:04] [SPEAKER_02]: And we did find the red Jeep and we did, we had it for a while and tested it and didn't,

[00:36:09] [SPEAKER_02]: you know, didn't find any evidence indicating that was used.

[00:36:12] [SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, the red Jeep was not on.

[00:36:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Here's your harvest store video, which the, the indication was he would have drove right

[00:36:20] [SPEAKER_02]: past it.

[00:36:21] [SPEAKER_02]: We went and picked him up from the jail and said, Hey, how'd you get there?

[00:36:24] [SPEAKER_02]: And he took us right past the, here's your harvest store.

[00:36:26] [SPEAKER_02]: And there was no red Jeep on, on that video.

[00:36:29] [SPEAKER_02]: So we could prove a lot of his lies and we can prove that, that he was communicating

[00:36:35] [SPEAKER_02]: with the girls and we can definitely prove that he lied to us multiple times in the

[00:36:40] [SPEAKER_02]: investigation.

[00:36:41] [SPEAKER_02]: And I don't know why my, my best assumption is he was trying to get street cred, which is

[00:36:49] [SPEAKER_02]: stupid because it's not, that's the way, that's not the way to do it.

[00:36:53] [SPEAKER_01]: But of course, one of the key moments in the investigation involves a discovery made

[00:36:58] [SPEAKER_01]: by Kathy Shank.

[00:37:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Can you tell us about that?

[00:37:02] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, first of all, Kathy's amazing.

[00:37:04] [SPEAKER_02]: She is a heart of gold, retired for years and came back to volunteer to help, help with

[00:37:11] [SPEAKER_02]: investigation.

[00:37:13] [SPEAKER_02]: And we, and we had a few retired people do that, but not at the level that she was.

[00:37:18] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, she first started out at the front desk when I first remember her being involved

[00:37:22] [SPEAKER_02]: was after we moved to the RMC building, she would be down at the front desk.

[00:37:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Anybody come in with a little tip or lead, she'd write it down, come and get a detective.

[00:37:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Just amazing what she did.

[00:37:34] [SPEAKER_02]: And she was there a lot.

[00:37:37] [SPEAKER_02]: And then, you know, she was asking to help even more.

[00:37:40] [SPEAKER_02]: So Steve Mullen knew her very well, worked with her when she was with the DCS or CPS, whatever

[00:37:47] [SPEAKER_02]: it was called back then, but department of child services.

[00:37:50] [SPEAKER_02]: So he knew her, he trusted her.

[00:37:52] [SPEAKER_02]: We all trusted in her.

[00:37:54] [SPEAKER_02]: And when she started organizing the filing cabinets, it made the investigation a lot

[00:37:59] [SPEAKER_02]: better because we were getting a lot of multiple tips on multiple or multiple tips on one person.

[00:38:07] [SPEAKER_02]: And what we were finding out that Orion wouldn't put it together.

[00:38:12] [SPEAKER_02]: So if you got a tip on Kevin Greenlee and then Kevin, Jerry Greenlee or Jerry, Kevin Greenlee,

[00:38:21] [SPEAKER_02]: it wouldn't put that together.

[00:38:22] [SPEAKER_02]: So we were giving these tips out and investigators were going out and they're like, yeah, I interviewed

[00:38:28] [SPEAKER_02]: him.

[00:38:28] [SPEAKER_02]: He said he's already been interviewed four times.

[00:38:31] [SPEAKER_02]: So once we got the interviews and hard copies and put them in a folder, if you got a tip on

[00:38:37] [SPEAKER_02]: a guy, if you got a tip on Jerry Holman, you would go to the H's in the filing cabinet,

[00:38:41] [SPEAKER_02]: look and be like, okay, yeah, he's already been talked to.

[00:38:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Is there anything in this tip that's new that we need to talk to him about now?

[00:38:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Or is this the same tip or same information?

[00:38:52] [SPEAKER_02]: If there's something new, then yeah, we would go interview him multiple times if we

[00:38:56] [SPEAKER_02]: needed to.

[00:38:57] [SPEAKER_02]: So that was very helpful when, when she would do that.

[00:39:00] [SPEAKER_02]: And then later in the investigation, she was going through and making sure that Orion was

[00:39:05] [SPEAKER_02]: matched up with the filing cabinet information.

[00:39:07] [SPEAKER_02]: And she would always bring tips to investigators saying, Hey, I don't, I don't see a report on

[00:39:12] [SPEAKER_02]: this.

[00:39:12] [SPEAKER_02]: And we're like, ah, we're pretty sure it was done.

[00:39:14] [SPEAKER_02]: And we'd contact a investigator and maybe he didn't have his report done quite yet.

[00:39:20] [SPEAKER_02]: And we would get the reports or maybe they didn't remember.

[00:39:23] [SPEAKER_02]: And we'd, we'd have to go back and, and redo the follow-up on the tip.

[00:39:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, so that was common for her to do.

[00:39:31] [SPEAKER_02]: And then, you know, the day and late, I believe September, she took the tip of Richard Allen

[00:39:39] [SPEAKER_02]: Whiteman and found that.

[00:39:41] [SPEAKER_02]: And that was a true blessing and definitely got us in the right direction.

[00:39:45] [SPEAKER_02]: And ironically, it happened on her deceased husband's birthday.

[00:39:50] [SPEAKER_02]: So that's why I believe that was a true blessing from powers of a lot higher than us.

[00:39:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Um, and then we, when we got the tip, we just, we worked it like any other tip, like we would

[00:40:02] [SPEAKER_02]: get, and then we just thoroughly and investigated and exhausted every resource and manpower that

[00:40:10] [SPEAKER_02]: we could to, to either eliminate him as a suspect or establish probable cause.

[00:40:15] [SPEAKER_02]: That's what we do with everybody.

[00:40:16] [SPEAKER_02]: We get the tip, we'd either eliminate you or we establish probable cause.

[00:40:21] [SPEAKER_02]: And the only time we were able to establish probable cause was on Richard Allen.

[00:40:25] [SPEAKER_02]: So thank God for Kathy.

[00:40:27] [SPEAKER_02]: She's an amazing lady.

[00:40:29] [SPEAKER_02]: She's always going to have a special place in my heart.

[00:40:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Many, many others.

[00:40:34] [SPEAKER_02]: She's, she's awesome.

[00:40:36] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, so you yourself had a number of interactions with Richard Allen after he came on the radar

[00:40:42] [SPEAKER_00]: and this lead really started running.

[00:40:43] [SPEAKER_00]: Can you tell us a bit about that and what he was like?

[00:40:46] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:40:47] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, my, my interactions were brief.

[00:40:48] [SPEAKER_02]: So as a supervisor, you don't get to do all the fun stuff sometimes.

[00:40:52] [SPEAKER_02]: So during the search warrant, uh, I was there just to make sure that we did everything as

[00:41:00] [SPEAKER_02]: best as we could and didn't tear anything up.

[00:41:02] [SPEAKER_02]: That's kind of when you do a search warrant, you don't want to be responsible for having

[00:41:08] [SPEAKER_02]: to financially replace, uh, any property that was unduly destroyed.

[00:41:13] [SPEAKER_02]: So when I first got to the Allen's residence, I saw Richard and Kathy sitting in a vehicle.

[00:41:21] [SPEAKER_02]: I think it was like a van and I went over and they got out and I walked over towards the

[00:41:27] [SPEAKER_02]: CSI and Richard Allen kind of followed me over.

[00:41:31] [SPEAKER_02]: And I said, we have a search warrant for your house.

[00:41:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, our intentions are not to tear up anything.

[00:41:36] [SPEAKER_02]: Um, so if we do, there's a process and, uh, I'll give you the tort claim and you can file

[00:41:43] [SPEAKER_02]: for any damages.

[00:41:44] [SPEAKER_02]: And he, I remember him making a comment.

[00:41:47] [SPEAKER_02]: It doesn't matter.

[00:41:48] [SPEAKER_02]: It's over.

[00:41:49] [SPEAKER_02]: I did the walkthrough.

[00:41:51] [SPEAKER_02]: I went back over to him again and said something similar.

[00:41:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Like, Hey, I didn't see anything.

[00:41:55] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't think we're going to tear anything up.

[00:41:57] [SPEAKER_02]: If we have a locked container or lock cabinet or something like that, and you have the key,

[00:42:02] [SPEAKER_02]: would you be willing to let us open it?

[00:42:04] [SPEAKER_02]: He said, yeah, but again, it doesn't matter.

[00:42:06] [SPEAKER_02]: It's over.

[00:42:07] [SPEAKER_02]: So they started the search.

[00:42:09] [SPEAKER_02]: I, uh, again, the old guy supervisor would get to set out back and

[00:42:13] [SPEAKER_02]: not, not do the real police work at the time.

[00:42:17] [SPEAKER_02]: I was sitting out in my car and Richard Allen was with his wife in the van.

[00:42:22] [SPEAKER_02]: And at some point he come over and ask if he could sit with me because Kathy had to use

[00:42:27] [SPEAKER_02]: the restroom.

[00:42:27] [SPEAKER_02]: And I said, yeah, I said, no problem.

[00:42:30] [SPEAKER_02]: So he sat in there with me.

[00:42:31] [SPEAKER_02]: We didn't really talk much at all.

[00:42:34] [SPEAKER_02]: Um, he would get out and smoke cigarettes quite a bit after I want to say 15, 20 minutes.

[00:42:41] [SPEAKER_02]: He asked me, did you guys detain my wife or arrest my wife?

[00:42:46] [SPEAKER_02]: And I said, no, why would we?

[00:42:48] [SPEAKER_02]: And he's like, well, I don't know, but she's been gone a long time.

[00:42:51] [SPEAKER_02]: And I said, well, I could take you over to her, uh, place of employment if you want.

[00:42:55] [SPEAKER_02]: And he said, no, it doesn't matter.

[00:42:56] [SPEAKER_02]: It doesn't matter.

[00:42:57] [SPEAKER_02]: It's over.

[00:42:58] [SPEAKER_02]: He said that at least three or four times to me.

[00:43:03] [SPEAKER_02]: And shortly after that, we were about done with the search.

[00:43:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Um, Kathy came back with one of her friends and she was crying and Richard was trying to

[00:43:13] [SPEAKER_02]: console her.

[00:43:14] [SPEAKER_02]: And I said, Hey, we're done.

[00:43:15] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to, you want to walk through with me real quick?

[00:43:18] [SPEAKER_02]: And I can, I said, I already walked through.

[00:43:20] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't see any damages, but if there are, and you know, we can take care of them again.

[00:43:26] [SPEAKER_02]: And he said, no, it's over.

[00:43:27] [SPEAKER_02]: It's over.

[00:43:27] [SPEAKER_02]: It's don't worry about it.

[00:43:29] [SPEAKER_02]: It's already over.

[00:43:29] [SPEAKER_02]: Damage is done.

[00:43:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Something like that.

[00:43:32] [SPEAKER_02]: So that was my first interaction with him.

[00:43:34] [SPEAKER_02]: Um, the second was when I interviewed him at state police post, his demeanor was kind of

[00:43:42] [SPEAKER_02]: odd to me because we told him that he was coming to get his proper, some of his property

[00:43:48] [SPEAKER_02]: back.

[00:43:48] [SPEAKER_02]: He was coming to get his car.

[00:43:50] [SPEAKER_02]: When I went out to the lobby to get him, he handed his coat and emptied his pockets.

[00:43:55] [SPEAKER_02]: And gave his wife all of his belongings, which unless you think you're going to jail,

[00:44:01] [SPEAKER_02]: usually don't do that.

[00:44:02] [SPEAKER_02]: I've had people where in the interview, I said, Hey, you know, I don't know what's going

[00:44:06] [SPEAKER_02]: to happen.

[00:44:07] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to forward this report to the prosecutor.

[00:44:09] [SPEAKER_02]: If the prosecutor decides to file charges and I get a warrant, will you, you want me to call

[00:44:14] [SPEAKER_02]: you and you can turn yourself in?

[00:44:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.

[00:44:16] [SPEAKER_02]: And they would cooperate and they would show up just like that.

[00:44:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Sweatpants, t-shirt, no articles.

[00:44:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Cause they know, I think the average person knows that you don't want to bring things

[00:44:27] [SPEAKER_02]: to jail with you because they're probably going to get lost or thrown away.

[00:44:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Or you can't have, you can't bring your own things to jail.

[00:44:34] [SPEAKER_02]: You have to get the items you need while you're in jail.

[00:44:37] [SPEAKER_02]: So that was a little weird to me when he did that, just talking to him early on.

[00:44:41] [SPEAKER_02]: He seemed to be coherent.

[00:44:43] [SPEAKER_02]: He seemed to be a little bit agitated, but not, not at first, you know, and at first I

[00:44:49] [SPEAKER_02]: was just building rapport with him, talking to him about the Marine Corps and the army

[00:44:53] [SPEAKER_02]: and guns and giving him some scenarios about if somebody had your property for a long period

[00:44:59] [SPEAKER_02]: of time, you know, their DNA would be on it.

[00:45:02] [SPEAKER_02]: Just giving him an out, basically giving him a chance to explain how his round got next

[00:45:10] [SPEAKER_02]: to Liberty and between Liberty and, and Abby's deceased bodies.

[00:45:17] [SPEAKER_02]: So at some point I could tell he was becoming agitated with me, but for the most part, I

[00:45:23] [SPEAKER_02]: felt like he was just fishing, trying to get me to tell him what, what we had, but he made

[00:45:29] [SPEAKER_02]: some odd comments.

[00:45:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Like I said something about, you know, I don't think you're a bad person.

[00:45:33] [SPEAKER_02]: And Kathy doesn't think you're a bad person.

[00:45:35] [SPEAKER_02]: And he said, well, what kind of bad person kills two girls?

[00:45:38] [SPEAKER_02]: That was a little disturbing to me.

[00:45:40] [SPEAKER_02]: And the time that, uh, he met with his wife, I allowed his wife to come in and talk to

[00:45:46] [SPEAKER_02]: him.

[00:45:46] [SPEAKER_02]: I allowed him to take a smoke break.

[00:45:47] [SPEAKER_02]: I allowed him to use the restroom.

[00:45:49] [SPEAKER_02]: I got him a water, but when his wife was in there, he was telling her, Hey, all you

[00:45:53] [SPEAKER_02]: got to do is tell him you need an attorney.

[00:45:55] [SPEAKER_02]: They have to let you leave.

[00:45:56] [SPEAKER_02]: Don't worry about me.

[00:45:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Like I'm guilty.

[00:46:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Just let me deal with it.

[00:46:01] [SPEAKER_02]: It was what was going through my head.

[00:46:04] [SPEAKER_02]: And then he would hold his hands out when he'd get frustrated with me and says, just

[00:46:08] [SPEAKER_02]: arrest me.

[00:46:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Just arrest me.

[00:46:09] [SPEAKER_02]: He did that a few times.

[00:46:11] [SPEAKER_02]: And I've never had an innocent person do that.

[00:46:13] [SPEAKER_02]: I've never, I don't think I've ever had anybody hold their hands out that many times at all

[00:46:20] [SPEAKER_02]: telling me to arrest him.

[00:46:22] [SPEAKER_02]: And then I told him he had a warrant for his DNA.

[00:46:26] [SPEAKER_02]: But before I could get that out, he said, yeah, I knew you had a warrant.

[00:46:29] [SPEAKER_02]: I knew you were going to arrest me.

[00:46:29] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm like, that's odd.

[00:46:31] [SPEAKER_02]: We didn't even know we were going to arrest you today.

[00:46:33] [SPEAKER_02]: We were going to get your DNA.

[00:46:35] [SPEAKER_02]: We were going to talk to you about this round.

[00:46:36] [SPEAKER_02]: And if you could tell us that I loaned this out to Jerry Holman and he go talk to him.

[00:46:42] [SPEAKER_02]: He had my gun at that time.

[00:46:43] [SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, we were looking, we were following every lead we could to, to, to either eliminate

[00:46:49] [SPEAKER_02]: him or establish probable costs.

[00:46:52] [SPEAKER_02]: So those behaviors were odd to me.

[00:46:54] [SPEAKER_02]: And then just observing videos and phone calls and, and his behavior while I was in jail.

[00:47:02] [SPEAKER_02]: And he obviously had some mental health issues.

[00:47:05] [SPEAKER_02]: I won't argue that, but I think he also played that to get what he wanted.

[00:47:11] [SPEAKER_01]: People talk sometimes since the trial about how certain things were not shared with the jury.

[00:47:18] [SPEAKER_01]: And I like to ask you about a couple of those things that I am quite a bit curious about.

[00:47:24] [SPEAKER_01]: You just mentioned this interview you had with Richard Allen.

[00:47:30] [SPEAKER_01]: The jury was played a recording of most of that, but not all of that.

[00:47:36] [SPEAKER_01]: There were some edits here and there throughout it.

[00:47:39] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think the most significant, most noticeable, most jarring edit was there was a time when

[00:47:46] [SPEAKER_01]: everybody was just sitting in the room, very quiet.

[00:47:49] [SPEAKER_01]: I think Richard Allen is looking down and then there was like a jump cut and suddenly like

[00:47:54] [SPEAKER_01]: everybody seems to be yelling and upset.

[00:47:56] [SPEAKER_01]: And it was very bizarre to watch.

[00:47:58] [SPEAKER_01]: And so can you tell us what was cut out?

[00:48:01] [SPEAKER_01]: What happened in that moment that the jury did not get to see?

[00:48:04] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:48:04] [SPEAKER_02]: And I would like to add to on, you know, how mean I was, but there was maybe 20 seconds

[00:48:10] [SPEAKER_02]: of me yelling and screaming.

[00:48:11] [SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, I have a rule of thumb when I interview people, I try to speak their language.

[00:48:16] [SPEAKER_02]: So if they're not cussing to me or cussing while talking to me, I try not to curse at them

[00:48:21] [SPEAKER_02]: or use curse words.

[00:48:22] [SPEAKER_02]: And if you watch that first part of that interview, the first hour and whatever, I never said

[00:48:28] [SPEAKER_02]: a curse word.

[00:48:28] [SPEAKER_02]: So that, that kind of was important because I know that everybody's like, oh, Jerry Holman's

[00:48:33] [SPEAKER_02]: so mean.

[00:48:34] [SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, I was using, using tactics to try to elicit information from him.

[00:48:40] [SPEAKER_00]: Why is it important to match somebody's behavior when you're interviewing them?

[00:48:45] [SPEAKER_02]: I think several reasons, uh, control, uh, tell them, you know, try to, you know, the old,

[00:48:52] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm asking the questions here, you know, it's like, I'm in control here.

[00:48:55] [SPEAKER_02]: You don't want to let them be in control.

[00:48:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Sometimes you do and you can play off of that.

[00:49:00] [SPEAKER_02]: But, you know, we use that deceptive behavior because number one, it's upheld in the Supreme

[00:49:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Court, but number two, it's, it, it elicits responses that lead you to other, um, statements

[00:49:18] [SPEAKER_02]: that they may make that would indicate that they're involved.

[00:49:21] [SPEAKER_02]: That's, that's one reason, but, uh, yeah, I mean, it's, it's definitely something that

[00:49:27] [SPEAKER_02]: we use, but back to the interview, I had offered Richard Allen, uh, an out.

[00:49:35] [SPEAKER_02]: I said, if you're innocent, take a polygraph.

[00:49:39] [SPEAKER_02]: And he said, no, he, he first said that he'd done helping us and he's already helped us

[00:49:45] [SPEAKER_02]: as much and he wasn't going to, you know, give it, give us any more help.

[00:49:50] [SPEAKER_02]: And then he said, well, because I, I'm on anxiety meds.

[00:49:53] [SPEAKER_02]: And I said, you know, we, our polygraph examiners deal with that all the time.

[00:49:57] [SPEAKER_02]: They'll establish a baseline and they'll be able to rule that out.

[00:50:04] [SPEAKER_02]: And if you're innocent and you have nothing to hide, you take a polygraph.

[00:50:09] [SPEAKER_02]: And during the time that Kathy Allen was in there, I asked her, I said, Hey, if I was

[00:50:13] [SPEAKER_02]: trying to help you prove your innocence, would you want my help?

[00:50:17] [SPEAKER_02]: And would you, if you were innocent, would you take a polygraph?

[00:50:21] [SPEAKER_02]: And she said, yes, absolutely.

[00:50:23] [SPEAKER_02]: I would.

[00:50:23] [SPEAKER_02]: And I said, well, Richard Allen won't as your husband won't or something like that.

[00:50:28] [SPEAKER_02]: And then he got angry and said, I'm not fucking helping you anymore.

[00:50:34] [SPEAKER_02]: And I said, well, you can only help yourself.

[00:50:37] [SPEAKER_02]: And then came out or, you know, he wanted his wife out of there.

[00:50:42] [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm like, you know, Kathy, tell him to do the right thing here and yelling and screaming

[00:50:47] [SPEAKER_02]: a little bit.

[00:50:47] [SPEAKER_02]: So that was the basis of it.

[00:50:49] [SPEAKER_02]: And then he also tried to put it on me.

[00:50:53] [SPEAKER_02]: He said, you're going to pay for this.

[00:50:54] [SPEAKER_02]: And I said, no, I'm not paying for this.

[00:50:56] [SPEAKER_02]: You pay for what, what you've done.

[00:50:59] [SPEAKER_02]: And it was obvious I was angry.

[00:51:01] [SPEAKER_02]: But again, it was tactic.

[00:51:03] [SPEAKER_02]: I came back calm, put handcuffs on him, made sure they were double locked for his comfort

[00:51:09] [SPEAKER_02]: and safety.

[00:51:09] [SPEAKER_02]: And they didn't tighten up and took him out, took him to the sheriff's department.

[00:51:14] [SPEAKER_02]: And we didn't have any interactions heated or not.

[00:51:19] [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, it was just some tactics that we use.

[00:51:22] [SPEAKER_02]: It's similar to kind of what you, as a parent, you use with your kids.

[00:51:26] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, trying to get them to tell the truth, try to be deceptive and tell them, you know,

[00:51:33] [SPEAKER_02]: more than what you do or yell and scream at them.

[00:51:36] [SPEAKER_02]: It just depends on the kid, you know, how they're going to react.

[00:51:39] [SPEAKER_02]: So it's, it's not, it's not anything that outrageous or not used on a daily basis.

[00:51:44] [SPEAKER_02]: So.

[00:51:45] [SPEAKER_00]: So, so things like anger, raised voices and deception can be part of a toolkit in an interview

[00:51:51] [SPEAKER_00]: that you can deploy strategically to see if you can elicit the reaction, you know, a reaction

[00:51:58] [SPEAKER_00]: or some answer.

[00:51:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think so.

[00:52:00] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think it's taught in interviewing schools and read technique and, but you have to, you

[00:52:05] [SPEAKER_02]: have to use something that's going to work for your personality too.

[00:52:08] [SPEAKER_02]: You can't, you know, I don't think Kevin can come in and just start yelling at people and

[00:52:13] [SPEAKER_02]: people might not respond on you.

[00:52:16] [SPEAKER_02]: On the other hand, you might be able to come and yell and scream at people and they would

[00:52:20] [SPEAKER_02]: respond to it.

[00:52:21] [SPEAKER_02]: And everybody's different.

[00:52:22] [SPEAKER_02]: So you have to find a technique that you, that your personality is going to work well

[00:52:27] [SPEAKER_02]: with.

[00:52:27] [SPEAKER_02]: And you also have to read the person, you know, yelling and screaming at people.

[00:52:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Some people aren't going to work.

[00:52:32] [SPEAKER_02]: They're going to shut down and.

[00:52:33] [SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, but being super nice to people isn't going to work either.

[00:52:38] [SPEAKER_02]: So you got to find that button to push for lack of better terms.

[00:52:42] [SPEAKER_02]: And, and again, it's not always about getting a confession.

[00:52:47] [SPEAKER_02]: It's about getting a response.

[00:52:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, we want confessions, but.

[00:52:52] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, that doesn't happen very often.

[00:52:54] [SPEAKER_02]: I make the baseball analogy.

[00:52:56] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, if you bat 300 in baseball, you're in a hall of fame.

[00:53:00] [SPEAKER_02]: If you get three out of 10 people to confess, you're doing really well.

[00:53:05] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I think that's, you can kind of relate that.

[00:53:09] [SPEAKER_02]: To people just don't confess to stuff they don't want people to know about.

[00:53:13] [SPEAKER_02]: But if you can get a confession, great.

[00:53:16] [SPEAKER_02]: And these are ways that we try to elicit those.

[00:53:18] [SPEAKER_02]: But a lot of times it's just to get more information, to be able to go follow up and

[00:53:24] [SPEAKER_02]: get the, you know, circumstantial evidence or physical evidence you need to prove that

[00:53:28] [SPEAKER_02]: they're guilty.

[00:53:30] [SPEAKER_00]: I wanted to also ask you about polygraphs.

[00:53:33] [SPEAKER_00]: Obviously, they're not admissible in court.

[00:53:36] [SPEAKER_00]: Why can they be a tool used investigatively, though?

[00:53:40] [SPEAKER_00]: Like what, what can they help with in that sense?

[00:53:44] [SPEAKER_02]: On rare occasions, they can be used, you know, if they're stipulated, you can use them in court,

[00:53:48] [SPEAKER_02]: but that doesn't happen very often.

[00:53:50] [SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, it's just another interview process.

[00:53:52] [SPEAKER_02]: It's another tool that you can use to, again, elicit responses.

[00:53:58] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not a polygraph examiner by any means, but we've, you know, successfully used polygraphs

[00:54:06] [SPEAKER_02]: to get people to give us information that we need to establish the evidence to be able to get probable cause to get that arrest warrant.

[00:54:15] [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, they're very helpful.

[00:54:17] [SPEAKER_01]: I'd like to ask about something else that wasn't shared with the jury.

[00:54:21] [SPEAKER_01]: There was a video of Richard Allen at Cass County Jail that the prosecution seemed to really want to share with the jury,

[00:54:31] [SPEAKER_01]: and the defense really did not want the jury to see this video.

[00:54:36] [SPEAKER_01]: What can you tell us about this video and what it showed?

[00:54:41] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not sure why they wanted it or didn't want it, but I think what it would show,

[00:54:47] [SPEAKER_02]: they were trying to establish that Richard Allen was this fragile egg.

[00:54:52] [SPEAKER_02]: I think the term was used, and we were trying to establish that they, that he was not.

[00:54:59] [SPEAKER_02]: And in this particular video that we were trying to get in, you know,

[00:55:03] [SPEAKER_02]: Richard Allen was sitting there calm on his bed and then just from zero to a hundred snapped and just went ballistic,

[00:55:12] [SPEAKER_02]: verbally and physically abusive to anybody and everybody around,

[00:55:15] [SPEAKER_02]: punching the door, banging his head, yelling and screaming,

[00:55:20] [SPEAKER_02]: doing a throat slashing motion and just terrible behavior.

[00:55:26] [SPEAKER_02]: And then, but in a nutshell, and 10 seconds after he calmed down, oh no, I'm fine.

[00:55:31] [SPEAKER_02]: I'll sit over here and read my Bible.

[00:55:33] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think that just shows, you know, the kind of person he is and the ability that he has to go,

[00:55:45] [SPEAKER_02]: you know, off the wall.

[00:55:46] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think that's what probably happened on February the 13th is he got angry and just snapped

[00:55:51] [SPEAKER_02]: and wanted to be in control and power and killed two innocent girls.

[00:55:57] [SPEAKER_02]: So I think that was important, but it was too prejudicial to the jury.

[00:56:01] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think that's why the judge ruled on it, which is probably the right thing to do.

[00:56:05] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.

[00:56:06] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm pretty confident that she did a lot of the right things.

[00:56:09] [SPEAKER_02]: So, but that's why I think, and that's what it was about.

[00:56:14] [SPEAKER_00]: We would like to thank Lieutenant Holman for speaking with us about his experience with the case.

[00:56:19] [SPEAKER_00]: We very much appreciate it.

[00:56:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Check out the next episode for the rest of our conversation.

[00:56:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet.

[00:56:27] [SPEAKER_01]: If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us at murdersheet at gmail.com.

[00:56:36] [SPEAKER_01]: If you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[00:56:43] [SPEAKER_00]: If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com slash murdersheet.

[00:56:54] [SPEAKER_00]: If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www.buymeacoffee.com slash murdersheet.

[00:57:05] [SPEAKER_00]: We very much appreciate any support.

[00:57:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet, and who you can find on the web at kevintg.com.

[00:57:18] [SPEAKER_00]: If you're looking to talk with other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook.

[00:57:26] [SPEAKER_00]: We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much.

[00:57:32] [SPEAKER_00]: We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience, as we often receive a lot of messages.

[00:57:39] [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks again for listening.

[00:57:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks so much for sticking around to the end of this Murder Sheet episode.

[00:57:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Just as a quick post-roll ad, we wanted to tell you again about our friend Jason Blair's wonderful Silver Linings Handbook.

[00:57:53] [SPEAKER_00]: This show is phenomenal.

[00:57:56] [SPEAKER_00]: Whether you are interested in true crime, the criminal justice system, law, mental health, stories of marginalized people, overcoming tragedy, well-being.

[00:58:06] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, he does it all.

[00:58:07] [SPEAKER_00]: This is a show for you.

[00:58:09] [SPEAKER_00]: He has so many different conversations with interesting people, people whose loved ones have gone missing, other podcasters in the true crime space.

[00:58:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Just interesting people with interesting life experiences.

[00:58:24] [SPEAKER_00]: And Jason's gift, I think, is just being an incredibly empathetic and compassionate interviewer, where he's really letting his guests tell their stories and asking really interesting questions along the way, guiding those conversations forward.

[00:58:37] [SPEAKER_00]: I would liken it to, like, you're kind of almost sitting down with friends and sort of just hearing these fascinating tales that you wouldn't get otherwise.

[00:58:44] [SPEAKER_00]: Because he just has that ability as an interviewer to tease it out and really make it interesting for his audience.

[00:58:51] [SPEAKER_01]: On a personal level, Jason is frankly a great guy.

[00:58:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[00:58:55] [SPEAKER_01]: He's been a really good friend to us.

[00:58:58] [SPEAKER_01]: And so it's fun to be able to hit a button on my phone and get a little dose of Jason talking to people whenever I want.

[00:59:06] [SPEAKER_01]: It's a really terrific show.

[00:59:08] [SPEAKER_01]: We really recommend it highly.

[00:59:10] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think our audience will like it.

[00:59:12] [SPEAKER_00]: And you've already met Jason if you listen consistently to our show.

[00:59:14] [SPEAKER_00]: He's been on our show a couple times.

[00:59:15] [SPEAKER_00]: We've been on his show.

[00:59:17] [SPEAKER_00]: He's a terrific guest.

[00:59:18] [SPEAKER_00]: I say this in one of our ads about him, but I literally always – I'm like, oh, yeah, I remember when Jason said this.

[00:59:24] [SPEAKER_00]: That really resonated.

[00:59:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, I do quote him in conversations sometimes because he really has a good grasp of different complicated issues.

[00:59:31] [SPEAKER_01]: She quotes him to me all the time.

[00:59:32] [SPEAKER_00]: I do – I'm like, I remember when Jason said this?

[00:59:33] [SPEAKER_00]: That was so right.

[00:59:34] [SPEAKER_00]: So, I mean, I think if we're doing that, I think – and you like us, I think you should give it a shot.

[00:59:39] [SPEAKER_00]: Give it a try.

[00:59:40] [SPEAKER_00]: I think you'll really enjoy it.

[00:59:41] [SPEAKER_00]: And again, he does a range of different topics, but they all kind of have the similar theme of compassion, of overcoming suffering, of dealing with suffering, of mental health, wellness, things like that.

[00:59:52] [SPEAKER_00]: There's kind of a common through line of compassion and empathy there that I think we find very nice.

[00:59:57] [SPEAKER_00]: And we work on a lot of stories that can be very tough, and we try to bring compassion and empathy to it.

[01:00:03] [SPEAKER_00]: But this is something that almost can be like if you're kind of feeling a little burned out by true crime.

[01:00:07] [SPEAKER_00]: I think this is kind of the life-affirming stuff that can be nice to listen to in a podcast.

[01:00:14] [SPEAKER_01]: It's compassionate.

[01:00:15] [SPEAKER_01]: It's affirming.

[01:00:17] [SPEAKER_01]: But I also want to emphasize it's smart.

[01:00:20] [SPEAKER_01]: People – Jason is a very intelligent, articulate person.

[01:00:25] [SPEAKER_01]: This is a smart show, but it's an accessible show.

[01:00:29] [SPEAKER_01]: I think you'll all really enjoy it.

[01:00:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and he's got a great community that he's building.

[01:00:33] [SPEAKER_00]: So we're really excited to be a part of that.

[01:00:35] [SPEAKER_00]: We're fans of the show.

[01:00:36] [SPEAKER_00]: We love it.

[01:00:37] [SPEAKER_00]: And we would strongly encourage you all to check it out.

[01:00:39] [SPEAKER_00]: Download some episodes.

[01:00:40] [SPEAKER_00]: Listen.

[01:00:41] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think you'll understand what we're talking about once you do.

[01:00:44] [SPEAKER_00]: But anyways, you can listen to The Silver Linings Handbook wherever you listen to podcasts.

[01:00:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Wherever you listen to podcasts.

[01:00:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Very easy to find.

[01:00:51] [SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.