The Delphi Murders: First Person: Updates and Conclusions: Part One

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[00:02:56] [SPEAKER_03] So, let's get into it.

[00:02:58] [SPEAKER_02] Let's get into it. We've been doing a series that we've called First Person. We've been talking to a variety of people connected to the Delphi case in some ways. I think we've likely reached the end of that series. It's always very possible that we'll get a few more here and there, but certainly at the rate we've been doing it, that's now concluded.

[00:03:24] [SPEAKER_02] So, before we moved on from that, we thought it'd be worthwhile to sit down and talk about some of our reflections on that series. And also, as long as we're talking Delphi, Judge Gull issued a rather interesting order not too long ago. And then there's some more stuff in the continuing saga of Ricky Davis and Kagan Klein that we thought was worth discussing.

[00:03:47] [SPEAKER_03] Yes. Ballad of Ricky Davis. So, shall we get into it?

[00:03:52] [SPEAKER_02] Let's do it.

[00:03:53] [SPEAKER_03] So, this conversation turned out to be a lot longer than either of us anticipated. So, we're going to divide it into two parts. This is going to be part one.

[00:04:01] [SPEAKER_02] Part two will be released on the same day. So, you could listen to them both on the same day. I think we're releasing these on Monday. But the count is the Tuesday episode. One of them does.

[00:04:12] [SPEAKER_03] My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist.

[00:04:15] [SPEAKER_02] And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney. And this is The Murder Sheet. We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases. We're The Murder Sheet.

[00:04:27] [SPEAKER_03] And this is The Delphi Murders. First person. Updates and conclusions. Part one.

[00:05:19] [SPEAKER_02] Should we start with the order that Judge Gull recently issued?

[00:05:23] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah, we'll talk about this. And I think one reason we wanted to sort of highlight this is because it can kind of – a lot of people ask us, you know, when are we all going to see the exhibits? Things like that. The exhibits from court. When are we going to see the video that Liberty shot on her phone? You know, and this – I don't know. The answer is we don't know. But –

[00:05:42] [SPEAKER_02] Before we get into the nitty and gritty of what she had to say, should we make a few general comments about the overall tone of Judge Gull's? And what we think of that.

[00:05:59] [SPEAKER_03] Sure. So what this is, is she's kind of responding to a request from the media to get exhibits. And this filing she responded with is maybe a bit snarky. Maybe I would describe it as a bit petulant. A bit kind of like, how dare you ask me this? And how I feel about this is that, you know, I'm going to say this.

[00:06:28] [SPEAKER_03] I've said it again and again and again. But I feel that Judge Frances Gull, when it came to the law on this case, for the most part, perhaps with one notable exception, pretty much adhered to what I would expect from a judge. I thought she actually did quite a good job commanding the courtroom during trial and being fair to both sides.

[00:06:50] [SPEAKER_03] The one weakness I see with Judge Gull in this case – and I think it's a pretty important weakness because obviously it concerns what we do – But I don't think she's been good on media and public access issues. And I think that's – there's a – it's not just us saying, well, we want this stuff so we're annoyed. It's saying that the public deserves to have more answers.

[00:07:15] [SPEAKER_03] And I feel that her handling of some of this stuff has actually just increased and given fuel to the fire of conspiracy theories. And that's not helpful.

[00:07:24] [SPEAKER_02] Yes. And I think the tone of this particular – I think it's an unfortunate tone. I think it is a tone that you could understand if a person is not doing a deep dive into the case and just knows the big, big points about the case. If that person looks at this, reads it, and thinks this judge is pretty mean, pretty unreasonable.

[00:07:54] [SPEAKER_02] Maybe this judge was also unreasonable in how she treated the defense. I don't think that's the case, but this is not an order that really covers her in glory, in my opinion. I also think it's worth noting that in life sometimes, I'm sure we've all had people that – we've all known people who seem to be really kind to everyone but us.

[00:08:22] [SPEAKER_02] And we've had a bad experience with one person. And I think in those instances, that affects our personal judgment of that person. And I think a lot of reporters have had bad experiences with Judge Gull. And I think, understandably or not, I think that has colored some of their coverage.

[00:08:44] [SPEAKER_02] And I think reporters who look at things like this and see how badly they and their peers are being treated by the judge, I think that has to color how they cover the trial and its aftermath. And I think that's very unfortunate because, as Anya mentioned, the ironic thing is, Judge Gull actually has a good story to tell.

[00:09:09] [SPEAKER_02] She handled the legal aspects of the case in an above-the-board manner. She protected Richard Allen's rights. She deserves credit for that. And I think if there was a camera in the courtroom, if there was an audio recording of the courtroom, most people would have a much higher opinion of Judge Gull than they do today.

[00:09:34] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. It's like self-sabotage. And again, I understand part of it. We've talked about it endlessly. We don't need to get into it again. But we'll talk about what's happening here. And I'll give you a sense. We, you know, listen, we've been writing the book on this case. We've been writing Shadow of the Bridge, which is going to be out in August. We've been really going hard on that. We've not had a lot of time to do a lot else. And that's why we've been doing so many first-person interviews because it's like we're working on this.

[00:10:00] [SPEAKER_03] We can't just be pivoting to other cases right now that would not be in the best interest of us, those cases, or our audience because, you know, it's better to focus, I think, in a situation like this. But we did reach out on January 6th asking for exhibits, you know, just seeing what's the situation, what's going to be the process. We received a brief response from court staff indicating that sort of at some point in the future, media may be permitted to view the exhibits that are not sealed and confidential.

[00:10:28] [SPEAKER_03] And that it would probably be after the filing of the transcript with the Indiana Court of Appeals because the exhibits are needed to put together that transcript.

[00:10:37] [SPEAKER_02] And to be clear, I believe that email came from court reporter Jody Williams, and it was very professional.

[00:10:44] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah, very prompt and professional. Listen, it's a little bit vague, but at the same time, it does set expectations. And also my view of it was, you know, Kevin and I were, after repeated attempts, not considered media by this court. So it sort of seemed to be telling us, you know, like whatever, whatever is going to happen, we're not going to have a part in it because we're not media.

[00:11:06] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah.

[00:11:06] [SPEAKER_03] As far as this judge is concerned, although I will say the Indiana Supreme Court disagrees. But yes.

[00:11:11] [SPEAKER_01] But you're not bitter.

[00:11:12] [SPEAKER_03] But I'm not bitter at all. I'm not bitter at all. But, you know, so, OK, so but anyways, we appreciate that response, that clarity. Or maybe if it's not clear, at least it's sort of indicating, well, perhaps after the appeal. Again, like we just don't have a lot of time to, like, fight about this stuff right now. But other media filed into the case saying we like the exhibits. So that was good to see. We're looking at that and saying, OK, maybe things will get released this way, potentially.

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[00:13:02] [SPEAKER_03] Tier 1 compensation provided. Investing involves risk. Acorns Advisors LLC and SEC Registered Investment Advisor. View important disclosures at acorns.com slash msheet. And so what happened was NBC Universal Media LLC and Twist Media LLC filed a motion to intervene.

[00:13:21] [SPEAKER_02] Those were separate.

[00:13:22] [SPEAKER_03] Separate motions to intervene and compel access to public trial exhibits. Those were filed on February 3rd and February 7th of this year. To give you a sense, everyone knows what NBC is. It's a major media corporation. Twist LLC seems to be something that is like an imprint or like a label within something called Wheelhouse Entertainment LLC. And so Twist Media LLC seems to be the kind of crime-focused production side of that company.

[00:13:52] [SPEAKER_02] Let me say this. It's certainly always good to hear more about the people filing into cases or the organizations filing into cases. But to me personally, to some extent, doesn't matter what Twist LLC is. Doesn't matter who they are. The fact is they are asking for the same rights and the same privileges that are granted to media organizations anywhere into members of the public. So I think that's all that matters.

[00:14:21] [SPEAKER_03] So in the filing, Judge Gull says that NBCU, on behalf of Dateline NBC, emailed them January 8th requesting public records. In the order, she writes, this court and the court reporter have received thousands of emails regarding this case. This court has no way of verifying the true identity of people who have represented themselves to be media or anyone else by email. Just because you claim to be NBC or ABC or PBS or CBS does not make you NBC or ABC or PBS or CBS, end quote.

[00:14:50] [SPEAKER_03] So, okay, getting a little snarky here. I don't really know what the media is supposed to do other than just try to reach out. And like, it's not like there's been some sort of designated process by which everyone's supposed to do this where they're not. I could understand that annoyance if it's like, guys, I told you to do this, but I don't really know what they're supposed to do. So then she expressed some annoyance that NBC was asking her court to prioritize their request, I guess, over everyone else.

[00:15:20] [SPEAKER_03] And, you know, yeah, I don't – she said, quote, this court refuses to allow the media or the public to dictate its schedule or work responsibilities by making such priority requests. No authority has been advanced by NBC or twist media LLC that authorizes such demand, end quote. Yeah, I mean, they wouldn't have any authority to make a priority request, but I think they're just doing their jobs.

[00:15:39] [SPEAKER_02] If I understand it correctly, if I recall correctly, it's been a couple of weeks since I read the NBC request. I think they were – if I recall, they were basically saying there's a ton of exhibits. We can't expect you to go through all of the exhibits and give us everything. So we would like to prioritize just a couple of items. So I think when they were saying priority request, they were saying just get us this handful of items.

[00:16:08] [SPEAKER_03] Or either way, I mean, they're on deadline. So, I mean, like, I think it's important to have an understanding of how the media does operate. I think you don't have to like it or agree with it, but I guess getting mad about journalists or producers trying to get something by a deadline, it's just sort of like that's what they're expected to do. Like, it's not personal, I guess, you know.

[00:16:33] [SPEAKER_03] So they talked about – and then this is where the court got into something that I think is important to highlight. The exhibits are needed for the production of a transcript if one is requested by the parties. Those exhibits exist now in two bankers' boxes. They took weeks to organize and could exceed 15 volumes at the end of the day. And it will take weeks to prepare confidential and non-confidential volumes of these exhibits.

[00:16:59] [SPEAKER_03] So it's not as simple as like, oh, I'll share my Google Drive with you and you can see all the exhibits. It's going to be a complicated process. There's confidential stuff that should not be out there. There's non-confidential stuff that can be out there. But at the same time this is going on, a transcript may be being prepared for appeal. And that ultimately is more important to Richard Allen and therefore takes priority in this situation, takes priority over even public access.

[00:17:28] [SPEAKER_03] I would agree with that. I think a person's appeal is more important than this stuff. So it's not as simple as somebody clicking a button, flipping a switch. I think that's important to remember. I think that's a fair point. But again, I think some of the good points here are maybe lost somewhat by the tone. And then also what the judge notes is that the requests in the media have been overly broad, not specific enough, and they're not going to guess what people really want.

[00:17:58] [SPEAKER_03] So what NBC wanted was recorded police interviews with Allen. She wants to know which one exactly. And then another one was any and all recorded prison phone calls between Allen, his wife, and mother, audio. And the court noted that they're not in possession of all those because not all of those were entered into evidence. They want to know which calls are being requested. And the media also requested the 43-second phone video recorded by Liberty.

[00:18:29] [SPEAKER_03] There's a couple of versions of that. There's the stabilized version. There's the original version. So she's asking that's not specific enough. She's saying, which one?

[00:18:36] [SPEAKER_02] And in terms of any no-recorded police interviews with Richard Allen, okay, well, we know there were, for all intents and purposes, there were two. There was his conversation with Liggett and Steve Mullen, and then there was Richard Allen's conversation with Jerry Holman. The complicating factor is that I believe both of those were edited. Certainly the interview with Jerry Holman was edited.

[00:19:04] [SPEAKER_03] I think they both were to remove stuff about polygraph.

[00:19:09] [SPEAKER_02] So is NBC asking for the edited version, the unedited version? So I understand what she's saying here.

[00:19:21] [SPEAKER_03] She's thinking about it like a lawyer and a judge. They're thinking about it like journalists. When I read it, I was like, I could see myself making requests like that because I would think that's pretty specific. But from the court's perspective, it's not, and I also understand that. I think one thing I think, you know, there was always going to be this interest in seeing these publicly.

[00:19:44] [SPEAKER_03] I think it may have been a good thing for there to be some kind of expectation setting or process by which that would happen that could have been communicated at an earlier date so that there wouldn't need to be so many emails. And there could be like, at this time, this is what will happen and this is how you get what you want. I mean, would that have been totally not a thing they would do?

[00:20:09] [SPEAKER_02] It would have been nice.

[00:20:12] [SPEAKER_03] But anyways, so they also talk about she also talks about how this is where things kind of get a little wild. Actually, I like this part. She shouts out Cindy Hebert with WTHR, a wonderful producer there, thanking her for organizing the media pool.

[00:20:31] [SPEAKER_02] One thing that Cindy did that I loved was she invited us into the media pool. I love Cindy. And this person who Judge Gould says did a great job was then told by Judge Gould to kick us out.

[00:20:42] [SPEAKER_03] Cindy was amazing. Cindy was like my hero throughout this thing, even though we obviously did not end up in the media pool.

[00:20:49] [SPEAKER_02] That was not Cindy's fault. Cindy was very professional. She was great.

[00:20:54] [SPEAKER_03] She was great. And where, like, I mean, the pressure was enormous. She had all these people to deal with and she just was a consummate professional. And so I think we appreciated her just from looking on that. We're looking from behind the pane of glass separating us from the media. But I think the people in the media, I'm sure, appreciated her work, too. So it was nice to see her get a shout out. I like that. Very nice person. Very. Yeah. She's great.

[00:21:23] [SPEAKER_03] So she talks about how by she, I mean, Gould, she talks about how she gave front row access to the media, gave remaining public seating to the media, quote, much to the displeasure of the podcasters, YouTubers and true crime enthusiasts, end quote. You didn't know what she was talking about there. But see, I remember I actually remember there were a lot of complaints about that. See what you have to understand, everybody.

[00:21:47] [SPEAKER_02] She did not give them the remaining public seat. She gave them access.

[00:21:52] [SPEAKER_03] She said that basically if you want to get in line, you feel free. You can get in with the rest of the public if you didn't get a press pass that day. That's what she's talking about. Some people were indeed upset by that. Well, you have to understand, people, is that this trial, you know, we're in the public seating. We're in the line. And people in the traditional media who didn't get a press pass that day, along with people on more of the public side, on more of the podcast, YouTube side, are all coming to us to complain about the other party.

[00:22:21] [SPEAKER_03] We're trying to be like Switzerland, like, can we get along? And everyone's the traditional media people were very upset that basically like these kind of what they regarded as rubberneckers are coming to watch this thing and, you know, don't know how to act in some cases and are taking up space from them. They view their job as more important than people basically watching it for entertainment. And from the other side, they're saying, well, these media people think they're better than us and they're kind of like trying to crowd us out.

[00:22:48] [SPEAKER_03] And like we, you know, they already got a seat up there. They had their chance. So why are our seats being taken? So, you know, we really tried to stay out of that particular fight. That may surprise some of you because I feel like given the amount of blood feuds we're in. But it was one of those things. I just think tensions were high there. And it was people, you know, people were on edge. So I think that's just what happened. And I think that's what that's referring to.

[00:23:13] [SPEAKER_02] And apropos of nothing, I'll mention this. There was all of this tension and stress and turmoil about the seats and what's my line number, this, this, this, this, that, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And the fact is, I would say if there were just like maybe 10 more seats available, everything would have been fine.

[00:23:33] [SPEAKER_03] That's so true.

[00:23:33] [SPEAKER_02] There was just not quite enough seats.

[00:23:38] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah, that's exactly right.

[00:23:39] [SPEAKER_02] And so there was a number of things that could have been done to alleviate that situation and completely release all of this pressure.

[00:23:48] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah.

[00:23:48] [SPEAKER_02] But I digress.

[00:23:50] [SPEAKER_03] So this is this is what she's talking about. She also talked about how at the end of each day of trial, all credential media were invited. They could go into the well of the courtroom. They could review all the exhibits in person. And she even says Dateline NBC producer Marianne O'Donnell was present. We talked to Marianne. Very nice lady. She had access. I don't know why she emphasizes this, because obviously, Miss O'Donnell and the rest of the NBC Dateline people would. It's not just enough for Marianne to go view these with her eyes.

[00:24:20] [SPEAKER_03] They want to play them on TV, presumably. Yeah. That's why they're asking for them. So, like, I like it like, you know, I don't. There seems to be like a discrepancy between like what they want and what she's understanding them to be asking for. Although she may just be, I don't know, being kind of legalistic. I don't know. It's it's just it is what it is. But she talks about this. I think I think this is an important point.

[00:24:44] [SPEAKER_03] Quote, this court is one of the busiest trial courts in the state of Indiana with over 25 murder cases set for jury trial, as well as hundreds of other major felony cases pending jury trial, attempted murder, rape, child molesting, robbery, burglary, arson, corrupt business, influence, et cetera. End quote. Obviously, here is a bit like. Miss me with your penny anti media requests. I got I got some serious stuff to deal with. And, you know, to a certain extent, I get the frustration. It's like you guys are all banging on my door for this stuff.

[00:25:11] [SPEAKER_03] I think that's why it might have been good to kind of set expectations, have a bit of a process going into things. So there could be this kind of like understanding with the media. Here's when you can expect to get stuff, if at all. Or here's like here's the process. Don't bother me until March or whatever, whenever the appeal is going to be, whatever. I don't know.

[00:25:33] [SPEAKER_02] But do you think this is a hypothetical question? Let's say Judge Gull served you with some kind of a summons. That you did not respond to in a prompt way. And do you think if you wrote Judge Gull a letter saying, you know, Judge, you're right. I do have to take care of this. But you know what, Judge? I'm so busy. Do you think Judge Gull would have looked upon your explanation with favor?

[00:25:59] [SPEAKER_03] I think I'd still be in jail as we speak. You know, the media is annoying. We're annoying when we've been doing journalism.

[00:26:11] [SPEAKER_00] No, we're charming and delightful.

[00:26:12] [SPEAKER_03] No, it's true. But that's the job. That's the job to be annoying because you want to get stuff to the public. You can't really get around that. So, you know, being annoyed by the media, it's fine if you are. People are entitled to their feelings. But at the same time, I think there has to at least be an understanding of where they're coming from in order to kind of, you know, be able to kind of get through all this. So what surprisingly, oh, this was wild.

[00:26:37] [SPEAKER_03] She accused Twist Media LLC of plagiarizing NBC's filing, saying this is basically the same thing and also I don't consider Twist Media to be media. Twist Media, welcome to the club.

[00:26:49] [SPEAKER_02] I don't understand why she doesn't consider the media. And I thought it was – I was surprised that she accused them of plagiarizing. If you were filing a request for the same sort of materials under the same sort of laws, I would expect there to be a lot of similarity in your argument.

[00:27:09] [SPEAKER_03] Surprisingly, given the tone, she actually does not deny NBC's request. She says, quote, if the media public would submit particularized specific requests for an actual exhibit introduced in the jury trial in this matter, the court will make the exhibit available at a date to be determined. End quote.

[00:27:27] [SPEAKER_03] And then what she's saying is that when they get those specific requests for an actual exhibit, the court and court reporter will set aside times and dates on its extremely busy calendar to accommodate such particularized requests. The media public cannot expect the court and court reporter to guess at what they're asking for in this cause. End quote. End quote.

[00:28:27] [SPEAKER_03] End quote. End quote. End quote. End quote.

[00:28:56] [SPEAKER_03] End quote. I can understand. But I just think generally public access was not great. I think if everyone, I think in a different world with a different judge or maybe a judge goal who favored public

[00:29:21] [SPEAKER_03] access, we could have some of these things that people are saying would have been put to rest by now. But that's just my take. Should we move on to the Ricky? Oh, do you want to say anything

[00:29:31] [SPEAKER_02] else? I just wanted to repeat what I said before. If the judge had actually allowed cameras in the courtroom or recordings of the courtroom, if she had made access to the actual trial proceedings were open to the public, I think people would have a higher opinion of her because her actual performance in the courtroom itself, it was praiseworthy. And I think people would have seen

[00:29:57] [SPEAKER_02] that. And not only would they have a higher opinion of her, but I think they would have a better understanding of the case. And a lot of the crazy conspiracy theories would no longer be out there.

[00:30:07] [SPEAKER_03] And you know what? Throw in cameras at that three-day hearing and nobody would be doing this lost cause nonsense about how Odinism would have saved Richard Allen and the jury would have wept tears of joy as they acquitted him because that theory was so good. You know, no. People who said that did not see what we saw or they're actively lying. They saw it and they act like that's the case.

[00:30:34] [SPEAKER_02] So yeah, let's talk about this Ricky Davis stuff again. So as a quick reminder, yeah, the defense originally put all their chips on Odinism and lost. Now they're apparently putting their chips on Ricky Davis.

[00:30:48] [SPEAKER_03] After the trial is over.

[00:30:49] [SPEAKER_02] And are about to lose. So Ricky Davis is a person who is in prison and he says he was in prison with Ron Logan and Ron Logan told him all about how Ron Logan committed the murders. Problem is that the details that he says he got from Ron Logan don't match the actual facts. And on top of that,

[00:31:16] [SPEAKER_02] Ricky Davis massively failed a lie detector test.

[00:31:20] [SPEAKER_03] Oh, but there's more. Ricky Davis also claims that Kagan Klein also made incriminating statements to him about the very same case.

[00:31:29] [SPEAKER_02] So that's been getting a lot of play in some quarters recently.

[00:31:35] [SPEAKER_03] Including the mainstream press.

[00:31:37] [SPEAKER_02] Including the mainstream press. The most recent episode we did devoted to that. We were very blunt and said it's not worth your time. I mean, this is worthless. There's nothing to it. I keep sighing. So.

[00:31:52] [SPEAKER_03] I'm contagious.

[00:31:55] [SPEAKER_02] But with that said, you have to do your due diligence. And so since this story came out, we reached out to both Kagan Klein and Ricky Davis. Got several messages back from each man. I'd like to begin by highlighting what Kagan Klein told us. I'm not going to read all of the messages we got from these people, but I want to read some of them.

[00:32:21] [SPEAKER_03] Can you explain why you're not doing that? Because I think that would be helpful for people to understand.

[00:32:25] [SPEAKER_02] Why don't you explain that?

[00:32:26] [SPEAKER_03] Well, I think, I mean, we're not going to put anything in here that we're not 100%, you know. I think like there's basically just wholesale putting out their statements from people where there are credibility issues is irresponsible and not helpful. So I think what we're trying to do is kind of pick out what we think is relevant to our listeners and not

[00:32:49] [SPEAKER_03] necessarily just air attacks on people or claims about what people are doing when we don't have evidence of that and we don't have multiple people corroborating it. So, and that's the, that's the, that's the, that's the case for with Klein. It's actually what he's saying Ricky Davis is doing because we don't have additional reporting to back that up.

[00:33:11] [SPEAKER_02] There's a couple of things that Kagan Klein says about Ricky Davis that we're not including.

[00:33:16] [SPEAKER_03] Which if true would hurt his credibility, but if not true, then we'd just be airing something that's false against somebody. And then for Davis again, you know, it's, it's, it's his kind of playing into this whole conspiracy theory that the defense is so adhered to. I don't feel

[00:33:30] [SPEAKER_02] comfortable just putting out there. Okay. So as Anya mentioned, uh, Ricky Davis claims that, uh, Kagan Klein talked to him about the murders. So we said to Kagan, Hey, Ricky Davis, if you talk to him and, uh, Kagan Klein said, quote, that dude is an idiot. I've only talked to him maybe two times. He's one of those guys in prison that tries to write all different prosecutors

[00:33:58] [SPEAKER_02] and get time cuts on people's case. It's laughable. Uh, we then, uh, wrote back him back and asked the obvious question. You said you, you talked to him. What, what did you talk to him about? And Kagan said, quote, I talked to him about my lawsuit against ISP due to me getting stabbed.

[00:34:21] [SPEAKER_02] Okay. Okay. What that's about is, uh, Kagan Klein has, uh, told us and the, he, he claims that he got stabbed in prison. And I think he wants to have some kind of a lawsuit as a result of that. So he's saying that's why he talked to Ricky Davis. I don't know for a fact if he got stabbed or not or not, but I can tell you that he claimed he got stabbed to us months,

[00:34:47] [SPEAKER_02] if not a year ago. Yes. Another obvious question to Kagan Klein was key part of the story. Ricky Davis is telling is that you knew Ron Logan and Ricky Davis even alleged that Kagan Klein would be, is Anya memorably put it, the pedophile tech guy because Kagan Klein, according to Ricky Davis,

[00:35:13] [SPEAKER_02] would help Ron Logan access child sexual abuse materials on his phone. And so Kagan, sorry, I asked, we asked Kagan, do you know what, did you know Ron Logan? Quote, no, I did not know Ron Logan or anything about that case. If I did, I wouldn't be in prison for 43 years over a few pictures, unquote. What do you make of that?

[00:35:36] [SPEAKER_03] Well, this is something I do go back. I mean, I obviously we've covered Kagan Klein's story extensively on the show and I think it's fair to say mildly he has credibility issues of his own. That's yeah, I would say he has a lot of credibility issues. I think it's interesting that he's minimizing the cache of child sexual abuse materials he had here and that's certainly not ideal and concerning. But I would say that on the count of him saying if I didn't, I wouldn't

[00:36:05] [SPEAKER_03] be in prison for 43 years. Kagan Klein is somebody who I always do feel is looking out for Kagan Klein. And I think had he had any information to give about Richard Allen, Ron Logan or anyone else. And we know that he tried to, you know, he tried to basically say his father committed the crimes, his father, Tony Klein. But what he the story he told police didn't add up based on the evidence.

[00:36:32] [SPEAKER_03] And his phone shows him in Peru, Indiana that day. We know he was in contact with Liberty German via his Anthony Schatz account. He was catfishing her. But the Kagan that we've interacted with and the Kagan that we've kind of, you know, reported on for a while, why if he had if he had some kind of connection to Allen, I don't understand why he did not divulge that. I think he would have played that card because, again, he got pretty much the worst

[00:37:00] [SPEAKER_03] outcome possible for himself with his CSAM conviction. He got over four decades in prison. That's a that's a pretty steep penalty. And I guess I just I don't understand why he wouldn't have deployed some kind of negotiations early on had had he been able to. I think it's because he didn't know. I think I think he was I think his communication with Liberty was very likely a coincidence.

[00:37:28] [SPEAKER_02] And I want to really underscore and point arrows to some of the stuff you just said. Kagan Klein does indeed have serious, serious, serious credibility issues. With that said, based on what I know about Kagan Klein, he is a person who always acts relentlessly in his own self-interest.

[00:37:52] [SPEAKER_02] In the past, whenever he has made statements indicating he may have had some connection to the crime, it was because he got something out of it. He was leading investigators on for a while. I think he thought he might get a shorter prison sentence or something of that nature. He was sending messages to women on the outside indicating he had information about the case.

[00:38:21] [SPEAKER_02] And he was doing that because he was getting sexual messages back in return. I don't understand why he would make incriminating statements to Ricky Davis, because I don't know what Ricky Davis could have given him in return.

[00:38:38] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah, that's a good point. So and again, if you're wondering, why haven't you asked Ron Logan for comment? He has passed away. He died of covid. So it's you. So basically, Kagan is the only one we can go to about, hey, what was your interaction with Davis?

[00:38:54] [SPEAKER_02] Well, also could go to Ricky Davis. Right.

[00:38:57] [SPEAKER_03] And that's what we did.

[00:38:58] [SPEAKER_02] We did do that. We got several messages here from Ricky Davis. We'll read the last one in full when we get to it.

[00:39:05] [SPEAKER_03] We reached out at first, I believe, on February 6th of this year.

[00:39:10] [SPEAKER_02] I think so.

[00:39:10] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah, we just kind of an initial reach out. We gave him our names. We said we're we run a true crime podcast. We're covering Delphi. We heard about some of your interactions with Ron Logan. Can you just tell us about your experience?

[00:39:23] [SPEAKER_02] I'll go so far as to say in all of our communications with him, we never told him we believe you. We don't believe you. It was all just very basic, simple questions. And in one of them, you know, Kagan Klein said, oh, you know, he writes to prosecutors like we'd write it. We'd ask him about that. So that's one thing to stress. Yes. The other thing to stress is I want to phrase this delicately.

[00:39:49] [SPEAKER_02] Ricky Davis's writing style is challenging. He has seems to have some difficulties articulating.

[00:40:00] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah, sometimes he's borderline incoherent in my mind. And I think you saw that with some of the letter we read from him previously. But he's hard to understand. I feel bad for any prisoners forced to use him in any way as some, you know, doing any filings or whatever the heck he's doing because it communication style is not clear.

[00:40:19] [SPEAKER_02] Yes. I don't know if that's an educational thing or something else.

[00:40:23] [SPEAKER_03] It could be anything. I'm not criticizing the guy for it because, I mean, you know, if it was a lack of educational opportunities or other things, then it's just a note to let you know that, like, some of this was kind of hard to understand what he's saying exactly. Or you kind of felt like he was like, you know, it's just a note about the writing, I guess, to kind of let you know about that.

[00:40:50] [SPEAKER_02] So I see here he sent us a message just asking us more questions about us. And we told him we always try to be fair and accurate. We just want to get your perspective. And then he wrote us an email that seems very similar to what he wrote Max Lewis. That's correct.

[00:41:12] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah, very similar. It hits a lot of the same points that he wrote to Fox 59's Max Lewis. Um.

[00:41:19] [SPEAKER_02] Where he says he seems to implicitly acknowledge that he failed the lie detector. Everybody tries to talk his way out of it, saying, oh, they told me to write down the story I got from Ron Logan, but only condense it to two paragraphs. So then when I was asked if I was giving them the complete information, obviously I wasn't because it would take more than two paragraphs to contain it all.

[00:41:44] [SPEAKER_03] Jesus. Jesus.

[00:41:46] [SPEAKER_02] Uh. Uh. And they asked me, you know, if it's true. Well, how do I know it's true? Because I'm only reporting, uh, what I was asked.

[00:41:53] [SPEAKER_03] Well, this guy seems pretty adamant that it's true because, I mean, he's inserted himself into this case to this degree. So, I mean, there's a lot of like.

[00:42:00] [SPEAKER_02] I think anyone who really understands how polygraph tests are administered. If, if I was to ask Anya a question on the polygraph, it would be about something that she herself would have knowledge of. I'm not going to ask, uh, Anya on the polygraph, did Kevin only eat one package of Pez last night? Because she doesn't know. Maybe I told her that.

[00:42:22] [SPEAKER_02] So, it's, it's, there's no point in polygraphers asking people whether or not information that they did not personally experience is true.

[00:42:33] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah, this just seems like excuse making to me. And also.

[00:42:38] [SPEAKER_02] You can ask them if they believe it's true.

[00:42:39] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah, do you believe it's true? Or are you telling the truth about what they related to you? But, yeah, it doesn't add up. And it just seems like a lot of like, you know, oh, this is why I lost the game. It's because the other guy cheated and da, da, da. It's just like, it's excuse making. It's very defensive. And, uh, you know, then there's something interesting.

[00:43:02] [SPEAKER_03] He talks about how he offered and, and think of this was in the Lewis letter to, he offered to wear a wire for investigators so he could spy on Logan and they could hear his confession themselves. And he, he guaranteed investigators he could have it within, uh.

[00:43:18] [SPEAKER_02] 30 to 45 minutes.

[00:43:19] [SPEAKER_03] So very, very convenient, uh, on demand. And, uh, he's even risking his own safety from talking to, I guess, a, you know, what, like 70 year old man. So, you know, what, what a hero. Profiles in courage right here. I would say for this, one thing I think it's important to remember is if you have somebody who, you know, lies in their polygraph and fails the polygraph.

[00:43:44] [SPEAKER_03] And also, more importantly, conveys details to investigators that don't at all match up the crime. Match up with the crime, rather, I should say. Then why on earth would they want to wire you up and use you? I mean, the, the responsible thing to do, the thing that I believe happened here and the thing that does not seem to be happening with Andrew Baldwin on the defense side for whatever reason, is that the thing to do would be to walk away. Why? This guy's lied. It's very clear he lied.

[00:44:14] [SPEAKER_03] He made all these statements about the, the case that don't fit what we see at the crime scene. Why are they going to wire him up and, and use him at all? He's, he's not a truth teller. And also there's, there's certain people where if they have, I believe like certain convictions on their record, they're not going to be able to be used in capacities like this. You shouldn't be using someone who's a forger in, in a, in a situation like this, I think, you know, I mean, like I, there's no reason to use him undercover.

[00:44:42] [SPEAKER_03] It's just that, I mean, he, he seems very offended that he was not utilized in any way. Like he doesn't understand that, but it's because he's not trustworthy.

[00:44:54] [SPEAKER_02] And it's because the story he says he will get is obviously a false story. I don't believe he would have gotten it. I believe if in some alternate universe where investigators were much poorer stewards of time and resources and in this alternate universe wired him up, I think he would have gone and talked to Ron Logan and gotten nothing. And then he would have come up with some excuse about it just to have is how he comes up with excuses for why he failed the polygraph test.

[00:45:20] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. But, you know, it's just, it's just this kind of bluster and bluff that honestly makes me beyond the fact that he is an inmate and is a convict and has all of this criminal history. I do believe that you can't necessarily write someone off based on all of that all the time.

[00:45:42] [SPEAKER_03] There can be people who are trying to do the right thing in a circumstance and just because they have a history with drugs, just because they have a history of crime, that doesn't necessarily mean they're trying to do harm. But I would think that somebody who wasn't inserting themselves into the situation based on lies and based on wanting attention or based on wanting to feel important or whatever the heck he's doing here.

[00:46:05] [SPEAKER_03] I would think that someone like that would be a little bit more open minded and a little bit more coming into this like, hey, this is what he told me. This is what I'm conveying to you. If you need me, I'll be over here. But I'm just passing it on to you. Ricky Davis does not have access to discovery. Ricky Davis doesn't know anything about this case when he's coming forward with this. So why is he so adamant that it's so important and correct? When the normal thing to be to just comes forward and say, hey, I got this.

[00:46:34] [SPEAKER_03] If it's worth anything, if not, whatever. Like you would be a little bit less committed to suddenly trying to be the hero in this case. I mean, am I am I? Yeah, yeah.

[00:46:44] [SPEAKER_01] I'm with you.

[00:46:45] [SPEAKER_03] Like this this this this sort of entitlement and this sort of excuse making and trying to talk around every single angle doesn't add up to a guy who is just casually. Hey, I'm just trying to help out if it's helpful. Whatever. It just it doesn't. It. The story stinks.

[00:47:07] [SPEAKER_02] The story stinks. Thanks.

[00:47:08] [SPEAKER_03] So let's move along.

[00:47:10] [SPEAKER_02] And also keep in mind that he's acknowledged that there was a point where he thought that Richard Allen was guilty.

[00:47:18] [SPEAKER_03] I can't wait. I can't wait for that. I can't wait for the Ricky Allen saga of actually being pro Allen guilt to come out and everyone to lose lose their minds. Because I just that to me is funny. It's like he's he's he's like a YouTuber. He's like trying to see what he has an audience for. Hey, you guys like Richard Allen's guilty? No. Oh, Ron Logan. Kagan. Kagan Klein. Ron Logan and Kagan Klein.

[00:47:44] [SPEAKER_03] I mean, like it's like seeing someone try to, like, you know, find an army of cranks on YouTube and just saying whatever until he hits on something.

[00:47:52] [SPEAKER_02] So, again, I'm reading bits and pieces here on February 16th. We said, hey, what was Ron Logan like? What was Kagan Klein like? Ricky Davis wrote back to us on the 17th of February. There is so much to this. But when the appeal is released, you will see in a couple of days people have been lied to. And I know people will feel caught up about me being some prisoner.

[00:48:19] [SPEAKER_02] But when the appeal is released, I will speak more onto it. But people must know they've been lied to about the case for some time. And I attend to give evidence so it won't be speculations, only factual basis. And I wanted to highlight that because it reminded me in the filings in the case, Baldwin said something very similar.

[00:48:44] [SPEAKER_02] He said that when he first went and talked to Ricky Davis in prison close to a year ago, Ricky Davis made similar comments about, oh, I can't tell you what I want to tell you, but it's all out there in these other sources. So it feels to me to be a classic con man's trick to tell you, well, the real evidence is just around the corner. Just hang out with me and support me now and you'll get the real stuff somewhere down the line.

[00:49:13] [SPEAKER_02] And as I'm talking aloud and thinking aloud, it occurs to me that perhaps the defense in this case has been guilty of that as well. Oh, because they frequently say, oh, the real evidence of odinism is just around the corner.

[00:49:24] [SPEAKER_03] Just around the corner. Stick with us and we're going to get there. And then you get there and it's nothing. And oh, no. Well, the evil police and judge and prosecutor actually hit it around the next corner. Let's keep going. And then you're, you know, it's.

[00:49:37] [SPEAKER_02] So this is the same sort of BS that Ricky Davis gave Baldwin over a year ago. If he really did have solid evidence and information, then you would think he would have put that in his very first alleged letter to the prosecutor. Yes.

[00:49:53] [SPEAKER_03] And, you know, if he had information, you would think that he would be at this point. Oh, well, I mean, like, like, let's remember this guy is alleging that Carroll County prosecutor Nicholas McClelland is corrupt and hiding evidence. And so why not? Why not state candidly to everyone? OK, here's what it is. He hid it from you. But now I'm going to tell you. This is the point. Like, because they don't have anything. This is just nonsense. This is just smoke and mirrors. These are liars. So moving on.

[00:50:23] [SPEAKER_02] So he asked for our address. We gave him our business address. And he was saying, oh, you know, I'll be able to give you more information when the appeal comes out. Sure. So we wrote a quote. This is us. The appeal explaining that you had written all these letters to the prosecutor came out. Is that the appeal you were talking about? We'd love to hear more from you instead of the lawyers, though.

[00:50:46] [SPEAKER_03] Oh, and also, to be clear, none of this is the appeal. I believe he's using the appeal interchangeably with Baldwin's recent filings, which are not the appeal. The appeal is going to be done by appellate attorneys. I think he just is confused by the terminology. But we didn't want to further confuse matters by saying, actually, it's not. That would have just been pointless.

[00:51:06] [SPEAKER_02] In the same message we wrote, is it true you help other people write prosecutors to get time off? That's something we heard. So he wrote back on February 19th, quote, I worked with inmates assisting with modifications, but it is general knowledge, really, as all inmates try to do at least one while incarcerated. Mostly I do them for those who can't read well or things like that.

[00:51:33] [SPEAKER_03] Right.

[00:51:33] [SPEAKER_02] So.

[00:51:34] [SPEAKER_03] Again, I feel bad for anyone who's using this guy because his writing is just not great.

[00:51:39] [SPEAKER_02] But he also wrote, as far as far as talking out about the other things. Pardon me. As far as talking about about. Let me try this again. As far as talking out about the other. There are things Andy Baldwin will reveal himself. Once that is done, we can talk in quote.

[00:52:01] [SPEAKER_02] I think that was interesting because it is a pretty much explicit confirmation that Andy Baldwin has some kind of strategy that Ricky Davis is aware of and is a knowing and willing participant in.

[00:52:19] [SPEAKER_03] He doesn't want to do anything to disrupt Baldwin's strategy here. You know, I'll talk to you after he reveals himself. Yeah. Interesting.

[00:52:27] [SPEAKER_02] But he's yeah, he seems to be very much a part of that strategy for whatever it's worth.

[00:52:32] [SPEAKER_03] So I don't feel like it's fair to call Ricky Davis some third party who's just coming into this at this point saying, hey, guys, this is what happened. I mean, he's obviously working closely with the defense.

[00:52:42] [SPEAKER_02] There was something in this message that you highlighted that you underrated.

[00:52:46] [SPEAKER_03] Yes. So this is this is how he closes this letter. Well, first, you know, he doesn't have anything personally against McClellan. He doesn't dislike him. But, you know, blah, blah, blah. He's a liar. He's corrupt. It's just ridiculous. Quote. Look, I just want the right people held responsible. It isn't about people feeling closure. Parentheses. Selfish. It is those girls getting full justice. Anything less is a mocky for their tragedy and justice. It isn't fair to them.

[00:53:16] [SPEAKER_03] Puroid. I think that was supposed to be period. End quote. So. I think it's interesting here. I don't know why a guy incarcerated who, again, does not have the case file, did not attend trial. Basically, by his own claim. Heard things from Ron Logan that, again, didn't add up, which I'm not convinced he even ever heard. And then from Kagan Klein, again, I'm not convinced Kagan Klein told him anything.

[00:53:45] [SPEAKER_02] I'll go further. I don't believe Ron Logan confessed to the crime to this man. I don't believe Kagan Klein confessed to the crime to this man.

[00:53:54] [SPEAKER_03] I don't believe this man.

[00:53:55] [SPEAKER_02] I believe Richard Allen is the person who did this crime.

[00:53:58] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah, but beyond that. So this guy. But like even if you were in prison and someone was saying something to you, I think you might be like, OK, well, they told me this. And if this matches the crime scene, maybe that's helpful to investigators. But you don't know that because you're not an investigator. You're not in the investigation. So this guy is suddenly incredibly certain that what he has to say is relevant to the point where he's saying that people are just clinging to closure about the conviction. And it's not about the girls getting like this high minded nonsense.

[00:54:26] [SPEAKER_03] I don't believe this man cares about justice at all. I don't believe he cares about anything else other than himself, because that's what his actions have demonstrated to me. I mean, this is it's just bizarre. But again, why would this guy know why? Like a normal person in this situation would not be this certain.

[00:54:46] [SPEAKER_03] They would just be saying, well, you know, if I told if I told people that I committed a crime or somebody if I if somebody confessed to me and they said, OK, I shot them and I go to police and I don't know what the cause of death was. I have no way of knowing if what I'm saying is helpful or not, because if they weren't shot, then it's out the window. Right. Right. So I'm not going to be confident either way. I'm just going to bring that information and say, do with this what you will.

[00:55:13] [SPEAKER_03] But this guy, you know, he's the main character now as far as he's concerned.

[00:55:18] [SPEAKER_02] OK, so before we got an opportunity to respond to that, he sent us another email. Now, previously, we have been reading excerpts from his emails. We have been basically doing him a kindness because we have been picking the parts of these emails that are the most coherent and clear. Again, he's not a clear writer in this one.

[00:55:42] [SPEAKER_02] I'm just going to read the whole thing word for word so you can get the flavor of what he actually writes like. And I think there was a content warning at the top of the episode. There is some profanity in this.

[00:55:55] [SPEAKER_03] We got this on February 21st.

[00:55:57] [SPEAKER_02] Yes. Quote, this is Ricky Davis to us.

[00:56:03] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah, not us to Ricky Davis.

[00:56:05] [SPEAKER_02] And this is right after this was soon after the other message. We had not written any messages in between. Quote, you clowns are in a butt business for the wrong reason. Keep playing with my name and you will regret it. I'm not that one and fall back on that mess. You don't even know me at all. I'm not sure if you understand what you are getting into. You are playing when it comes to the sake of justice for those girls, dumb asses.

[00:56:32] [SPEAKER_02] And for more, you're treading on deep shit talking about someone you don't know. Better go do more homework. Dig deeper before you piss me the fuck off. What is wrong with stupid ass people? Actually, he said stupid ass people because he misspelled it. So how ironic that he misspelled the word stupid. So first of all, he's clearly that that's some kind of a threat.

[00:56:58] [SPEAKER_02] So the star witness for the current iteration of the defense certainly is a charming gentleman.

[00:57:06] [SPEAKER_03] I'm very terrified. No, I'm not. I'm being sarcastic. This is I mean, it's not being stupid. Stop it. Stop it. Stop it. I would say that it is a threat. We're not afraid of stuff like this. People like this are just ridiculous.

[00:57:22] [SPEAKER_02] And shortly after this, we got a notification that he had blocked us.

[00:57:25] [SPEAKER_03] Which is interesting because he's you know, he's the he's the big man here threatening us. But then he's so scared of us emailing him back in a probably, you know, just a courteous manner of like, what's the issue that he blocks us so he can't hear from us again? So obviously, you know, very position of strength there. I just want to know. I'd be very curious. I what what I think happened here is that he's probably in contact with a number of different people.

[00:57:52] [SPEAKER_03] And he mentioned talking to us to somebody and they said, oh, my God, shut it down now. They don't want people like this talking to us and going on the record because they're afraid that we're going to be able to pull out lies that they told later. And unfortunately for Ricky Davis and for, you know, whoever is, you know, pulling his strings here, I think he already messed up probably a couple of times. And I think that's going to be borne out.

[00:58:19] [SPEAKER_02] But yeah, these we've only got a portion of these emails. Yeah, there's more gold to be mined.

[00:58:24] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah, I think this I saw. I think it's too late. I think I personally believe that Ricky Davis is going to be borne out as a liar publicly. And I I think this is ridiculous, but I think this is a again like we don't believe him and we've certainly been critical. But I mean, I think reacting to threaten people that don't believe your hard to believe story again doesn't really have the ring of truth or confidence that I think you'd want to go for.

[00:58:53] [SPEAKER_02] So, Mrs. Greenlee, do you realize we're like an hour into our big first person series wrap up? Haven't even said a word about first person.

[00:59:02] [SPEAKER_03] We've done all the updates and none of the conclusions. And frankly, it's embarrassing. But I guess we are.

[00:59:07] [SPEAKER_02] I think we need to move on.

[00:59:08] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah, we're just bloviating podcasters. So apologies to everyone.

[00:59:13] [SPEAKER_02] Thanks so much for listening to The Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us at murdersheet at gmail.com. If you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[00:59:33] [SPEAKER_03] If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com slash murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www.buymeacoffee.com slash murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.

[00:59:57] [SPEAKER_02] Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for The Murder Sheet, and who you can find on the web at kevintg.com.

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[01:00:30] [SPEAKER_02] Before we go, we just wanted to say another few words about Vaya. This is really a wonderful product. I think it's really helped both of us get a lot better rest.

[01:00:39] [SPEAKER_03] Vaya is pretty much, I guess you'd say, the only lifestyle hemp brand out there. So what does that mean? It means that they're all about crafting different products to elicit different moods. Kevin and I really like their non-THC CBD products. Specifically, Zen really helps me fall asleep. Some Zen can really just kind of help me get more into that state where I can relax and fall asleep pretty easily. And they've been such a wonderful support to us. They're a longtime sponsor.

[01:01:06] [SPEAKER_03] We really love working with them, and they really make this show possible. I'm going to say this. You may not realize this, but when you support our sponsors, you're supporting us, and it kind of makes it possible for us to do this show. So if you or one of your loved ones is interested in trying some of this stuff, you're going to get a great deal. It's very high quality, high value.

[01:01:25] [SPEAKER_01] Anya, if I wanted to get this discount you speak of, what do I do?

[01:01:30] [SPEAKER_03] Okay, if you're 21 and older, head to Viahemp.com and use the code MSHEET to receive 15% off. And if you're new to Viah, get a free gift of your choice. That's V-I-I-A, hemp.com, and use code MSHEET at checkout.

[01:01:44] [SPEAKER_00] Spell the code.

[01:01:45] [SPEAKER_03] M-S-H-E-E-T. And after you purchase, they're going to ask you, hey, where did you hear about us? Say the murder sheet because then it lets them know that our ads are effective, and it really helps us out.

[01:01:58] [SPEAKER_02] Before we wrap up this episode, can we take just a moment to say a few more words about our great new sponsor, Acorns?

[01:02:06] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah, thanks so much to Acorns. Remember, when you support our sponsors, you're supporting us, and our sponsors make it possible for us to do this job, so we really appreciate them.

[01:02:14] [SPEAKER_00] We love our sponsors.

[01:02:15] [SPEAKER_03] Absolutely. Acorns is a terrific investing app. It's the perfect thing for somebody who wants to get started with their personal finance journey. That can seem daunting. It is daunting. I'm so not financially minded. For me, it's always really hard to get started with something like this where you're like, what am I doing? But Acorns sort of takes the guesswork out of that. It gets you started, and it will essentially help you take control of your financial future.

[01:02:43] [SPEAKER_03] You can get set up pretty quickly, and it allows you to start automatically saving and investing. That money can help you, your kids, if you have a family, your retirement, and you don't need to be rich. You don't need to be an expert to do this. It's very simple, and you can start with only $5 or whatever change you have. It's not like you need to put in some massive payment.

[01:03:04] [SPEAKER_03] So it's a great fit for people who are starting out, but they want to take the next step and improve themselves financially and make their money work for them more. So if you're interested, head to acorns.com slash msheet or download the Acorns app to start saving and investing for your future today. Paid non-client endorsement. Compensation provides incentive to positively promote Acorns. Tier 1 compensation provided. Investing involved risk. Acorns Advisors LLC and SEC Registered Investment Advisor.

[01:03:32] [SPEAKER_03] View important disclosures at acorns.com slash msheet.

[01:03:35] [SPEAKER_02] Can we talk a little bit before we go about Quintz, a great new sponsor for us? I think in one of the ads that we've already done for them, we talked about the compliments I'm getting on my jacket. I know you're a very modest woman, but can we talk about the compliments you're getting on the Quintz products you wear?

[01:03:54] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah, I've got two of their Mongolian cashmere sweaters. They're a brand that just does this sort of luxurious products, but without the crazy costs really well. They give you Italian leather handbags. They do like European linen sheets. It's you have a really cool suede jacket. And I really like the way I look in my sweaters. I like the way you look in your bomber jacket. It looks super cool.

[01:04:19] [SPEAKER_02] You've gotten a lot of compliments when you go out wearing these sweaters.

[01:04:22] [SPEAKER_03] I think I have. Yeah.

[01:04:24] [SPEAKER_02] And deservedly so.

[01:04:25] [SPEAKER_03] Also, like I'm one of those people. My skin is very like, you know, like I kind of sensitive. So when it comes to wearing sweaters, like, you know, sometimes it's something's too scratchy. Like it really bothers me. These are so soft. They're just like very delicate and soft and make it. They're wearing them is lovely because they're super comfortable. You're not you're not. It's not one of those things where you're like you buy it and it looks great, but it doesn't feel that great. They look great. They feel great. Yeah, I really love them. And you got, you know, your cool jacket.

[01:04:52] [SPEAKER_03] I mean, that's a little bit of a you're the guy who like wears the same thing all the time. So this is a bit of a gamble for you, a bit of a risk. You got something a bit different.

[01:05:00] [SPEAKER_02] I do wash my clothes.

[01:05:02] [SPEAKER_03] I know you wash your clothes, but I mean, you're filthy.

[01:05:06] [SPEAKER_02] You just made me sound awful. So no, I wash my clothes.

[01:05:09] [SPEAKER_03] But you don't really. I longer them. You don't really experiment with fashion that much is what I'm saying. So this is a little bit out of the norm for you, but I think you really like it and it looks good.

[01:05:17] [SPEAKER_02] Thank you. Great products. Incredible prices. Absolutely. Quince.com.

[01:05:22] [SPEAKER_03] There you go. So you can go to Quince.com slash M sheet. And right now they're offering 365 day returns plus free shipping on your order. So it's Quince.com slash M sheet. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash M-S-H-E-E-T.