According to his defense team, Richard Allen has made numerous incriminating statements about the Delphi murder case while incarcerated. They claim this is because of mental health concerns and have asked Judge Frances Gull to throw out the evidence. If this evidence remains, it will damage Allen's claims of innocence.
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[00:01:48] This episode contains discussion of the murder of two children.
[00:01:52] Hi everybody this is Anya from the murder sheet.
[00:01:56] Today we will be doing an episode on
[00:02:00] the latest defense filing. It's got some really
[00:02:04] pretty bombshell pieces of information in it.
[00:02:08] So we'll be discussing and talking about it.
[00:02:12] You're going to hear a lot from me in this episode and not as much from my wonderful co-host Kevin Greenlee.
[00:02:16] He is actually in the process of recovering from a surgery right now.
[00:02:20] Everything's okay, but when you hear him he'll sound a little bit
[00:02:24] more ragged than normal. He's just healing right now
[00:02:28] but he still wanted to participate in the episode because he is a trooper.
[00:02:32] And I did write some notes that if
[00:02:36] audio will be kind enough to share. Yes we're going to be getting the Kevin insights
[00:02:40] just delivered by me so it's going to be an odd experience for everyone
[00:02:44] but it should be my puppet today. Yeah I'm going to be his ventriloquist dummy
[00:02:48] like from the musical Chicago so
[00:02:52] we're going to try to do it but that's what's going to be happening.
[00:02:56] Bear with us with my apologies. My name is Anya Cain.
[00:03:00] I'm a journalist and I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney
[00:03:04] and this is the murder sheet. We're a true crime podcast focused on original
[00:03:08] reporting, interviews and deep dives into murder cases.
[00:03:12] We're the murder sheet. And this is The Delphi Murders
[00:03:16] More Confessions
[00:03:42] The Delphi Murders
[00:03:46] The Delphi Murders
[00:03:50] The Delphi Murders
[00:03:54] The Delphi Murders
[00:03:58] The Delphi Murders
[00:04:02] So as you could probably tell from the
[00:04:06] title of this episode, the biggest bombshell that
[00:04:10] we've seen in this document which is the Memorandum of Law
[00:04:14] in Support of Defendant Allen's Motion to Suppress
[00:04:18] is going to have to do with the fact that we have now learned that there are multiple confessions
[00:04:22] from Richard Allen in this case. We'll be breaking down exactly what we've learned.
[00:04:26] I'll just say that Kevin and I tend to have an approach with these things where
[00:04:30] whether it's a defense filing, a judges filing or a
[00:04:34] prosecutorial filing, we almost kind of sort of separate out the ingredients
[00:04:38] and get rid of the spin and really delve into
[00:04:42] the facts revealed by what are the filing. So this is a
[00:04:46] good opportunity to do that because the defense's job is to sort of spin the
[00:04:50] facts as favorably to their client as possible, but when you kind of
[00:04:54] peer through the veil
[00:04:58] a different story starts to emerge somewhat. And so
[00:05:02] we're going to be diving into this. I will say a lot of it may read as
[00:05:06] repetitive for folks who are following this because there's a lot of repeated complaints
[00:05:10] about conditions in Westville and
[00:05:14] what not. So I think some
[00:05:18] folks might kind of start reading it and think, oh this is just the same thing. It's not. There's
[00:05:22] a lot in here and we're going to get to it now. I think
[00:05:26] to start out, I know Kevin you highlighted the following
[00:05:30] quotes and I'm going to read them quickly. So
[00:05:34] through this process and what we're talking about is
[00:05:38] the process of the attorneys holding depositions
[00:05:42] so through this process
[00:05:46] Alan's attorneys have learned that Alan has been accused of making incriminating statements
[00:05:50] to both inmates and guards. Nearly all of these statements
[00:05:54] appear to have occurred between mid-March of 2023 and
[00:05:58] June of 2023. During this timeframe there also exists
[00:06:02] medical slash psychiatric records suggesting that Alan was in a
[00:06:06] state of psychosis. That's interesting because it
[00:06:10] highlights previously we'd heard about confessions to his wife and
[00:06:14] mother. And now we're finding that not only did he confess to them
[00:06:18] but he confessed to fellow inmates and guards
[00:06:22] and nearly all but not all
[00:06:26] of these statements took place between March and June of last year. So
[00:06:30] that means that there are more that did not take place between that
[00:06:34] timeframe. So that's shocking.
[00:06:38] This is shocking, I know that the when the it came
[00:06:42] out that Alan had confessed to his wife and mother
[00:06:46] a long time ago. That was a pretty big deal
[00:06:50] that ended up becoming a you know pretty widely talked about moment.
[00:06:54] Now we're hearing that that was not the end of it. That was not the extent
[00:06:58] of it. In fact he has been confessing to
[00:07:02] different people in while incarcerated for months.
[00:07:06] So yeah this is a big deal.
[00:07:10] Let me get to the next part of the quote. Alan's defense team
[00:07:14] has learned that Alan was not only detained in an isolation cell
[00:07:18] in WCU which refers to the isolation
[00:07:22] unit at Westville but that prison officials chose to
[00:07:26] post inmates at Alan's door and required the inmates to keep logs
[00:07:30] of all of Alan's actions statements and behaviors. This appears to have
[00:07:34] occurred during all hours of the day and continued over the course of much of Alan's
[00:07:38] stay in the WCU. These inmates all of whom are convicted felons
[00:07:42] were not only actively engaged in surveying Alan's activities but were also
[00:07:46] communicating with him from time to time. Alan's attorneys have also
[00:07:50] learned that at some point in early April of 2023 prison
[00:07:54] officials deliberately pulled the inmates from Alan's door
[00:07:58] from Alan's cell door and replaced them with prison guards. Alan's attorneys
[00:08:02] have learned that this appears to have been prompted by an inmate or inmates engaging
[00:08:06] Alan regarding his pending charges and communicating Alan's thoughts or
[00:08:10] words to the families of these inmates thereby violating any sense of
[00:08:14] confidentiality that might exist within the walls of the penitentiary.
[00:08:18] There's a couple things I wanted to mention there. They seem to
[00:08:22] sound a little bit odd if not menacing
[00:08:26] that they choose to station inmates outside his
[00:08:30] door but there was a reason for that wasn't there? He was on
[00:08:34] Suicide Watch. It's our understanding that companion
[00:08:38] inmates who are inmates that have essentially
[00:08:42] earned a level of trust within the system to the point where they
[00:08:46] can go do jobs like this who are stationed outside
[00:08:50] of the inmate cell and are
[00:08:54] basically watching them to ensure that they do not commit suicide.
[00:08:58] So at some point
[00:09:02] after it was revealed that the Westville system operated this way
[00:09:06] they seemingly switched it out for guards. So
[00:09:10] that's what I want to say this. This makes
[00:09:14] the odinous guard thing make so much more sense to me. You're trying
[00:09:18] to discredit the guards and the system as a whole and saying well
[00:09:22] the vast odinous conspiracy actually reaches
[00:09:26] within the prison in the form of these guards. So if you can do
[00:09:30] that then you can disrupt the effectiveness
[00:09:34] of guards who are coming forward to say that he is confessing
[00:09:38] to these crimes to us. So it makes that
[00:09:42] strategy a bit more bare. I still think
[00:09:46] it's a bad strategy because it sounds like they do not have any
[00:09:50] real concrete indication that these guards even were
[00:09:54] odinous as opposed to heathens which as we've talked about on the show multiple times
[00:09:58] not the same thing but
[00:10:02] beyond that it does make it make more sense because they're just trying to basically get these additional
[00:10:06] confessions thrown out or put into disarray in front
[00:10:10] of a jury. And then I wanted to also highlight
[00:10:14] that they talk about the inmates repeating things to
[00:10:18] other people that they hear and that this violates
[00:10:22] any sense of confidentiality that might exist within the walls
[00:10:26] of the penitentiary. Is there a sense of confidentiality that
[00:10:30] exists within the walls of the penitentiary? Penitentiary?
[00:10:34] Sorry I'm not feeling my best. You're fine. Because it's not like
[00:10:38] your fellow inmates are your attorney or your doctor.
[00:10:42] I'm not sure if I'm incarcerated and I say something to a fellow
[00:10:46] inmate. I really have that much expectation of privacy.
[00:10:50] I don't know what the heck they're getting at here. It doesn't really make a lot of sense to me.
[00:10:54] Maybe they're making the argument that well these people are
[00:10:58] tasked with ensuring his mental health to some extent so therefore they have some sort of
[00:11:02] responsibility to keep what he says confidential. I don't understand
[00:11:06] how they get there. These are inmates. They're not state actors. They may
[00:11:10] have been basically assigned prison roles but I think they
[00:11:14] pretty much have the right to do whatever the heck they want. With that said
[00:11:18] I think I can imagine some hypothetical situations
[00:11:22] where they might become state actors if Tony
[00:11:26] Liggett or Jerry Holman go and talk to an inmate and say
[00:11:30] I want you on my behalf to go ask Richard
[00:11:34] Allen these five questions and then the inmate goes
[00:11:38] and asks Richard Allen those five questions without an attorney present.
[00:11:42] That sounds like being a state actor. Right. So you can anyone can become
[00:11:46] a state actor and that's a really good point to make by
[00:11:50] taking on a state assignment essentially and so
[00:11:54] if that were to be true then that would definitely become more controversial
[00:11:58] and make this more likely to be thrown out. In this document they don't
[00:12:02] make any allegations of that sort that like oh Nick McClurell and put these inmates up to it.
[00:12:06] That becomes a time when we're getting into different territory.
[00:12:10] They're not making those allegations but it is important to note that
[00:12:14] if those allegations were to come up then that would be more serious.
[00:12:18] I think that would be more serious for the prosecution of possibly getting some of this tossed out
[00:12:22] because they would have had to mirandize him essentially right
[00:12:26] or you know be designated as state actors.
[00:12:30] If they're doing an interrogation of someone
[00:12:34] at the behest of law enforcement and that person's lawyer is not present.
[00:12:40] That's a problem. It's a huge problem. But I haven't seen
[00:12:44] in this document any evidence that that's what was happening. And if they're just
[00:12:48] people who have a slightly you know elevated job within a prison
[00:12:52] setting because they've earned trust through the system then
[00:12:56] I don't see why the heck they would need to keep anything confidential
[00:13:00] and why wouldn't they be able to tell their families. I mean they're
[00:13:04] free speech. Yeah that doesn't really make a lot of
[00:13:08] sense. It sounds like they're trying to just make it sound like
[00:13:12] it's something that wasn't. I'm also not clear
[00:13:16] because I'm not feeling my best but I'm not clear as
[00:13:20] if an inmate hears Richard Allen make a confession and then the inmate shares
[00:13:24] this with his own family. How does that damage Richard
[00:13:28] Allen. I guess they don't want it out there that he's
[00:13:32] telling everyone he committed the crimes. I guess I mean
[00:13:36] they don't want the public knowing that he
[00:13:40] you know I mean they want to be able to explain it to the public. They don't want the public just
[00:13:44] unilaterally knowing that he's been confessing to killing
[00:13:48] two kids. So I don't see those inmate family
[00:13:52] members getting on CBS Evening News
[00:13:56] and spreading it. Or on YouTube. Yeah I don't either
[00:14:00] yeah I think there's a desperation with this
[00:14:04] defense team at this point to kind of you know like
[00:14:08] everything is a leak. Everything is a leak to them.
[00:14:12] That looks like a leak, that's a leak. It's sort of like
[00:14:16] their own leak. They're the team with the documented
[00:14:20] leak that ultimately resulted
[00:14:24] in graphic photos of the bodies
[00:14:28] of these children being sent to family members
[00:14:32] by a YouTuber who also posted them on YouTube. That's the culmination
[00:14:36] of their leak. And also when their leak
[00:14:40] man took his own life. So when you're kind of up against
[00:14:44] that I guess maybe to try to minimize your own
[00:14:48] responsibility for what happened you see leaks where there
[00:14:52] really aren't none. What's more fun than living out your own cozy
[00:14:56] mystery? You know Kevin and I love to explore real life mysteries
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[00:16:52] buying should be. So moving on they talk
[00:16:56] about how they deposed Warden John Gallapo who's one of the
[00:17:00] witnesses at the hearing on the safekeeping order way back
[00:17:04] when he contested a lot of what the defense said
[00:17:08] in the courtroom noting that essentially Richard Allen was being treated
[00:17:12] unusually well by Westfield standards
[00:17:16] and there was a lot of back and forth between him and Brad Rosie in trial
[00:17:20] so they deposed him on March 22nd 2024
[00:17:24] and he said Warden Gallapo, so here quote
[00:17:28] Warden Gallapo acknowledged that during his entire tenure he was unaware
[00:17:32] of any other circumstances involving the pretrial detention of a man who had not been convicted
[00:17:36] of a crime. Okay that's interesting so he's saying this is highly
[00:17:40] unusual my understanding is that it is highly unusual but I just wanted to point
[00:17:44] out that we just happened to be covering another case where this happens
[00:17:48] this happened this exact same thing happened where in the murder
[00:17:52] of Laurel Jean Mitchell a 1975 cold case
[00:17:56] out of North Webster Indiana two men Fred Bandy and John Wayne
[00:18:00] Lehman were recently arrested for that so John Wayne Lehman for
[00:18:04] physical health related reasons was transferred to the Miami
[00:18:08] Correctional Facility which is a prison pending trial
[00:18:12] seems like a somewhat similar argument was made because for physical
[00:18:16] health versus Allen with mental health
[00:18:20] in terms of like we need somewhere with the resources to take care of him
[00:18:24] so while this is highly unusual obviously if we can easily
[00:18:28] find another case then that tells me that it's not unheard of
[00:18:32] that being said I think one area where it does differ is I've not seen
[00:18:36] any indication that Lehman was put under some sort of segregation
[00:18:40] or in some sort of segregation unit so that is a different
[00:18:44] circumstance he may have been it's just not clear to me that he was
[00:18:48] but obviously given Allen's
[00:18:52] suicidal the possibility of suicide as well
[00:18:56] as behavior that we're going to get into later in this filing
[00:19:00] it's not necessarily surprising that he was kept segregated also
[00:19:04] in the project that he is accused of killing two children in a very highly
[00:19:08] publicized case that's kind of a
[00:19:12] puts a target on your back when you're in any sort of incarcerated setting
[00:19:16] I think
[00:19:20] branching off on this let's read this next quote
[00:19:24] Allen they're talking about the conditions
[00:19:28] and a lot of this is incredibly repetitive from previous filing
[00:19:32] I'm not going to skip over most of that but they do talk about the
[00:19:36] reception he received from other inmates incarcerated with him
[00:19:40] so quote Allen's attorneys have learned that he was referred to as
[00:19:44] a baby killer that he was the target of other similar accusations during
[00:19:48] his stay in WCU so that seems to be
[00:19:52] their attempt to kind of like show how something like that would hurt your mental health
[00:19:56] which you know I imagine it would
[00:20:00] it is important to remember that child predators are considered the lowest of the low in prison
[00:20:04] they are the lowest people in the hierarchy that develops within
[00:20:08] a prison so people who go after kids
[00:20:12] are frequently targeted for violence and
[00:20:16] and obviously in this case we've seen people
[00:20:20] it doesn't sound like they're threatening him but they're certainly labeling him as
[00:20:24] a child murderer which is a dangerous thing to be labeled as one you're
[00:20:28] incarcerated so it's interesting that they included this because to me this kind of
[00:20:32] highlights the reason why you would not want him in gen pop and general population in a prison
[00:20:36] or frankly in a county jail because I don't really think that
[00:20:40] inmates in either of those settings would be like more inclined
[00:20:44] to invite him to a tea party I think
[00:20:48] he would be in physical danger potentially if he was in either
[00:20:52] setting and I think that the isolation
[00:20:56] unit I mean the WCU seems like a way to
[00:21:00] keep him safe until trial now there can be
[00:21:04] really damaging detrimental effects to being that isolation
[00:21:08] I just don't feel like there's a really good answer for him because if you say
[00:21:12] no yeah go interact with people then he gets shived in gen pop then that's
[00:21:16] obviously not good either
[00:21:20] if he gets attacked in jail by people who
[00:21:24] don't like people who are accused of killing kids
[00:21:28] that's a problem I think at some point there has to be
[00:21:32] a look at what is the least bad option so I don't know
[00:21:36] so going to the next section we
[00:21:40] wanted to highlight this gets into Alan's mental health
[00:21:44] so they kind of recap the Odinus theory and okay there's Odinus
[00:21:48] guards and it's all part of this thing but
[00:21:52] one thing they get into is actually Alan himself Alan himself has almost
[00:21:56] become like a real enigma at the heart of this case
[00:22:00] he's not a lot of information that's been dug up about him
[00:22:04] at least as far as we've seen and certainly not a lot that's verifiable
[00:22:08] or has been verified when we talk to people who knew him they described a
[00:22:12] quiet man who could be funny but kind of kept to himself
[00:22:16] and you know that kind of makes it hard to say
[00:22:20] well was he was he did he give off creepy vibes
[00:22:24] did he ever do anything to another kid that was suspicious what happened was he just totally
[00:22:28] normal um whatever that means
[00:22:32] but now his attorneys themselves are kind of getting more into some of
[00:22:36] his mental health history so I'm going to read this
[00:22:40] quote Alan has also battled depression throughout most of his adult life
[00:22:44] he was medicated over the course of his life and in fact has sought out
[00:22:48] therapeutic resources to treat and manage his depression
[00:22:52] the idoc Indiana department of correction gave very little
[00:22:56] consideration to Alan's condition at the time of his intake and initial
[00:23:00] incarceration in the wcu especially given the unusual circumstances
[00:23:04] in which he was detained so this was interesting to me for a couple
[00:23:08] of reasons first of all it seems like
[00:23:12] a diagnosis of depression
[00:23:16] would make it more understandable as to why he we put on
[00:23:20] suicide watch uh yeah
[00:23:24] uh then secondly depression is one of those things
[00:23:28] you hear a lot about maybe you're not aware of
[00:23:32] all of the symptoms and what it may mean now
[00:23:36] I understand that not everybody with depression
[00:23:40] would have all of the symptoms of depression maybe you just have some
[00:23:44] of the symptoms and out of the others but with that in mind I was curious
[00:23:48] and I went to the Mayo Clinic site and looked
[00:23:52] up what kind of symptoms you might see with men
[00:23:56] who have depression and Ania is going to be kind enough to read that
[00:24:00] absolutely so this is what the
[00:24:04] Mayo Clinic says quote like women with depression
[00:24:08] men with depression may feel sad hopeless or empty
[00:24:12] feel very tired have a hard time sleeping or sleep
[00:24:16] too much not get pleasure from activities usually enjoyed
[00:24:20] other behaviors in men that could be symptoms of depression include
[00:24:24] problems getting along with others including your spouse or partner
[00:24:28] and other family members escape as behaviors such as spending a lot
[00:24:32] of time at work or on sports physical symptoms such as headaches
[00:24:36] digestive problems and pain problems with alcohol or drug
[00:24:40] use controlling violent or abusive behavior
[00:24:44] irritability or anger that gets out of control risky
[00:24:48] behavior such as reckless driving
[00:24:52] that's very interesting that's very interesting we don't know
[00:24:56] which symptoms Alan had or has
[00:25:00] yeah I'd be very curious about how did his depression manifest itself over the course of his life
[00:25:04] was this something that was
[00:25:08] only really witnessed by close family
[00:25:12] members and friends in his life was this something that was
[00:25:16] overt did he engage in risky behaviors or any sort of violent abusive
[00:25:20] behaviors did he did he cope with alcohol or drugs did he
[00:25:24] just simply kind of deal with the kind of the
[00:25:28] traditional sad hopeless emptiness or feeling tired or things like that I
[00:25:32] be we don't know the answer to this we don't know and we certainly don't want to stick
[00:25:36] but we certainly don't want to stigmatize everyone with depression
[00:25:40] no well it's a serious serious issue and
[00:25:44] it's I mean it's like this is something that's very common for people
[00:25:48] to have it's not a rare diagnosis I think
[00:25:52] by any means and just because he was
[00:25:56] depressed is certainly not mean he is guilty of a violent crime
[00:26:00] but it is interesting to look into the symptoms of depression
[00:26:04] as far as men are concerned because it can manifest
[00:26:08] itself a little differently you know depending on the person it's not a
[00:26:12] cookie cutter diagnosis where it's like one one set of symptoms
[00:26:16] fits all it's just different for different people this certainly explains why
[00:26:20] prosecutor McLean is so interested in getting the mental health records
[00:26:24] yeah really does and my recollection is when we talked to some wonderful
[00:26:28] mental health experts about this case they noted that
[00:26:32] in some cases I think there can be
[00:26:36] some kind of link when it comes to
[00:26:40] depression and psychosis
[00:26:44] that's not necessarily
[00:26:48] it would have to be a pretty severe form of depression is my understanding
[00:26:52] in most cases but there can be some link there
[00:26:56] so it's not unheard of
[00:27:00] and I just am curious when they say like no
[00:27:04] consideration was given to his depression what does that mean because it sounds like they put him on
[00:27:08] suicide watch possibly in part because of that reason
[00:27:12] yeah that's certainly my impression
[00:27:16] and again it sort of just feels like a lot of this is like the defense
[00:27:20] attorney is making everything so like people are damned if they do or they
[00:27:24] damned if they don't if they put him in gen pop or they didn't put him on suicide watch
[00:27:28] and he was heard as a result of that I imagine that that would also be
[00:27:32] a pretty severe and terrible outcome and bad from their
[00:27:36] perspective as well so I don't really know
[00:27:40] suicide watch means watching people and they complain a lot about how he's being watched
[00:27:44] and I imagine that's a very uneasy feeling but
[00:27:48] that is kind of the purpose of suicide watch no
[00:27:52] anyways so moving on
[00:27:56] to some very
[00:28:00] telling statements from the defense that I think you wanted to highlight so this is
[00:28:04] this is the quote
[00:28:08] here Alan's free will was overcome by the forces of his environment
[00:28:12] all of which were placed upon him by the government and its actors
[00:28:16] yeah I wanted to highlight that because I think it's always important
[00:28:20] when we look at these filings to try to highlight the
[00:28:24] arguments being made and their contention basically
[00:28:28] to oversimplify is that
[00:28:32] all of the confessions that were made were the
[00:28:36] result of bad treatment of one kind or another
[00:28:40] and therefore they should be thrown out because he lost his
[00:28:44] free will as a result of them it's
[00:28:48] like if I if like to use
[00:28:52] an example like if we or if like let's say the government
[00:28:56] like tortured somebody into confessing for
[00:29:00] days and days and days and then they confessed to a crime they would have lost their free will
[00:29:04] essentially because of the torture right yes
[00:29:08] they side a case where there was a problem with somebody because he had
[00:29:12] he was subjected to
[00:29:16] long long hours long interrogation
[00:29:20] in a good mental state
[00:29:24] they said basically Richard Alan was under an interrogation situation
[00:29:28] for five months so I don't know how compelling
[00:29:32] that argument is but that's the argument he was put in
[00:29:36] an untenable environment similar to torture
[00:29:40] where his free will is gradually taken
[00:29:44] away from him because of this awful treatment
[00:29:48] and since judge Gohl has already reviewed
[00:29:52] most if not all of this treatment and indicated she thought it was
[00:29:56] actually better than the treatment received by many people
[00:30:00] at Westville I'm not sure how compelling she would find that argument
[00:30:04] I think that's the argument being made
[00:30:08] yeah that does seem to be the argument being made and I understand in the
[00:30:12] generality of it talking about how essentially
[00:30:16] the end of the day he is in this prison because of the government and its
[00:30:20] act so like I understand like macro wise like
[00:30:24] he doesn't make these confessions unless he's in this prison and he's there because of the government
[00:30:28] that being said it feels like at times they try to label the people
[00:30:32] he's confessing to as state actors as well
[00:30:36] obviously in the case of the guards they are they're employed by the state of Indiana
[00:30:40] but in the case of the inmates I think that becomes I don't think they owe him
[00:30:44] confidentiality and then what about his confessions to his wife and
[00:30:48] his mother there's certainly not state actors but I think the argument
[00:30:52] is Richard Allen is been beaten down at least
[00:30:56] metaphorically to such an extent that he's lost his
[00:31:00] free will is basically confessing to everybody I think that would be the
[00:31:04] argument yeah I don't know I guess it's
[00:31:08] interesting I will
[00:31:12] be very curious to see how this plays out but I think we're going to get into some more information about
[00:31:16] what exactly these confessions may have contained and
[00:31:20] first we have another line I wanted to highlight about his free will be broken down
[00:31:24] absolutely so this gets into
[00:31:28] they've talked about how basically his depression wasn't properly treated which again
[00:31:32] they don't really give any specific information they do note that he was put into suicide
[00:31:36] watch pretty quickly which indicates that they were taking the issue of depression seriously
[00:31:40] so this is the quote quote all of this occurred
[00:31:44] while Allen's medications were being adjusted by the prison medical team
[00:31:48] combination of which factors reduced him to nothing more than a human experiment
[00:31:52] Alan's free will was overcome this is a very
[00:31:56] very bold claim
[00:32:00] and I say that because let's translate it
[00:32:04] they're essentially claiming with no offered evidence as far as I could
[00:32:08] see that licensed medical professionals would
[00:32:12] violate their sworn duties and responsibilities to their
[00:32:16] patients and therefore jeopardize their license and their entire
[00:32:20] career that they've worked so hard for to perform an experiment
[00:32:24] on a patient
[00:32:28] if you make a claim like that you better have some evidence
[00:32:32] to back it up otherwise it reminds me
[00:32:36] of the line in the first Frank's memo where they say well maybe guards
[00:32:40] pressured him to make in confessions now that we know this we're just
[00:32:44] guessing and it sounds like for their conspiracy
[00:32:48] to work you need odeness guards and now I guess
[00:32:52] odeness doctors who are willing to lose their careers over this case
[00:32:58] that's a very well I didn't even pick that up
[00:33:02] on the first read because I'm so used and I've been so
[00:33:06] like I guess trained by this defense team to just like keep reading
[00:33:10] through what is often incredibly
[00:33:14] how do I say this
[00:33:18] bold and forceful language I guess
[00:33:22] not bold and forceful that in a way that is always backed up by
[00:33:26] back seemingly but it's more of like basically written in a way to shock
[00:33:30] value seems to be very important if you if you put
[00:33:34] two descriptions of an event one of which was more accurate
[00:33:38] but less flashy and one of which was incredibly flashy but maybe boiled
[00:33:42] it down to a point where like it actually kind of lost any meaning before this
[00:33:46] defense team I think they would pick the latter because that's just been
[00:33:50] par for the course here just basically
[00:33:54] style over substance and I think that has hurt them again and again
[00:33:58] to be honest if if a doctor
[00:34:02] were to experiment on a patient to remove that
[00:34:06] patients free will in order to extract confessions for him
[00:34:10] you lose your license that's not why you become a doctor that's not why you go to mad school
[00:34:14] it's a bold claim and I would
[00:34:18] really need to see a lot more evidence to actually
[00:34:22] back that up right now the only
[00:34:26] one I see to believe that is because it would be convenient to
[00:34:30] their case and you need more than that before you smear the names of this
[00:34:34] mentee well they don't I mean they haven't for anything and this is why
[00:34:38] you know I just I I've met a point where in our reporting on this I'm not
[00:34:42] going to necessarily just take the word of the defense team from
[00:34:46] a filing to jump to any conclusions I've done that before
[00:34:50] I think if I got this filing
[00:34:54] months ago I would have been like wow this is explosive
[00:34:58] here we go I mean it would have been
[00:35:02] a really big deal to me personally but again we've had things like
[00:35:06] Turca we've had time and time again when there's been
[00:35:10] any other analysis of what's going on or other people
[00:35:14] describing their own experiences with this defense team it's been
[00:35:18] exaggeration to the point of like stretching the truth until it snaps and I'm
[00:35:22] just not willing to really I guess
[00:35:26] necessarily take their word for anything unless I'm seeing
[00:35:30] you know additional corroboration that's where I am
[00:35:34] so I guess going back to
[00:35:38] this are we at a point where we need to talk about
[00:35:42] what is a very disturbing description of Alan's mental health
[00:35:46] within this yeah there's a long quote here you're going to read for us
[00:35:50] yeah and I'll just warn you it's pretty horrifying stuff so
[00:35:54] quote already suffering from a
[00:35:58] bonafide mental health disorder and then having been cut off from the most
[00:36:02] from the moral support of his wife mother and daughter Alan was weakened
[00:36:06] to the point where he slipped into a state of psychosis plagued with grossly
[00:36:10] disorganized delusional paranoid and highly dysfunctional behavior
[00:36:14] these behaviors were manifested through verbal confessions that he may have been
[00:36:18] drugged verbal confessions to the double homicide inconsistent
[00:36:22] with the known facts about the crime scene periods of not sleeping for days
[00:36:26] paranoia stripping off his clothes drinking toilet water
[00:36:30] covering himself with and eating his own feces
[00:36:34] and many other socially unacceptable behaviors on one
[00:36:38] occasion Alan confessed to molesting those two young girls and shooting them
[00:36:42] in the back on another occasion he
[00:36:46] was sorrow for molesting Abby Libby and others which he specifically named
[00:36:50] these facts are known to be falsities none of which are
[00:36:54] supported by the autopsy findings by Dr. Roland Kor as the cause
[00:36:58] of the death of the girls and unsupported by the absence of any evidence
[00:37:02] that either one of the girls was sexually assaulted near or before
[00:37:06] the time of their deaths at the time Alan uttered these falsities
[00:37:10] the state's actors were in the ready position with pen and hand documenting
[00:37:14] the entirety balance mental and physical deterioration in action
[00:37:18] stemming there from the infringements on Alan's legal rights didn't
[00:37:22] stop there inmate companions then spread the good word of
[00:37:26] Alan's confessions to inmates in general population at Westville prompting
[00:37:30] these inmates to then share the information with their respective family members in public
[00:37:34] proof of these leaks were offered up by the state in the form
[00:37:38] of audio recorded interviews and accompanying transcripts included in large
[00:37:42] volumes of discovery dumps received by the defense in the recent past
[00:37:46] however neither Alan nor his legal team are aware of any self reporting of
[00:37:50] said leaks by the state to the defense or by the state to the court despite the fact that
[00:37:54] the state was aware of this information as early as May 12th 2023
[00:37:58] when Patton and Elliott
[00:38:02] were interviewed by law enforcement investigators Alan's due process rights have been all but ignored
[00:38:06] so just as a side note Jason Elliott and Lacey
[00:38:10] Patton are two of the inmates who apparently
[00:38:14] heard confessions from Alan you looked about did I did
[00:38:18] they're both inmates at Westville Lacey Patton
[00:38:22] his sentencing occurred over the crime of intimidation
[00:38:26] and
[00:38:30] he is from Elkhart I guess
[00:38:34] he seemingly could be you know seeing a release relatively soon
[00:38:38] so that's one of them and then the other
[00:38:42] Jason Elliott also at Westville he has a number of
[00:38:46] charges the most recent
[00:38:50] gets into possession of methamphetamine
[00:38:54] and he you know he has a release date in a couple years so
[00:38:58] those are the two people who are
[00:39:02] kind of associated with this at least in this document
[00:39:06] what makes a life a good one
[00:39:10] is it the adventure you have
[00:39:14] or the friends you find along the way
[00:39:18] maybe it's pursuing your passion while striving to protect defend and save what you believe in
[00:39:22] every single day
[00:39:26] so what makes a life a good one
[00:39:30] in the Coast Guard we think it's all of the above and more
[00:39:34] visit gocoastguard.com to learn more
[00:40:04] so let's start by jumping back to the beginning
[00:40:18] there's a lot to unpack here
[00:40:20] let's start by joining back to the beginning of what you read
[00:40:24] which was a description of shall we say unusual
[00:40:28] behavior by Richard Allen
[00:40:32] it seems to me that that type of behavior seems
[00:40:36] to justify the conditions under which Allen is held
[00:40:40] that you need to keep an eye on a person who is doing these sorts of things
[00:40:44] to monitor and ensure his mental health
[00:40:48] and ensure that he's not harming himself. Yeah they complain endlessly about the facets
[00:40:52] of suicide watch and the facets of isolation
[00:40:56] and then they basically explain why that is occurring
[00:41:00] and why you would have someone who is doing this who is smearing themselves
[00:41:04] and eating their own feces in Gen Pop
[00:41:08] or I mean that just seems like if he is exhibiting
[00:41:12] a mental health crisis
[00:41:16] or exhibiting the behaviors associated with one then I think it would be deeply
[00:41:20] irresponsible to not have him on suicide watch and to not have
[00:41:24] him be isolated so that he can't hurt others and that they can't hurt him
[00:41:28] and then when it comes to these confessions
[00:41:32] they're highlighting here certain details
[00:41:36] about the murders that he talks about that appear to be inconsistent
[00:41:40] with the actual facts like the girls being shot according to him
[00:41:44] when they weren't shot. This is obviously
[00:41:48] done to make us feel that the confessions as a whole are not
[00:41:52] credible and we will return to that in a minute but I think you wanted to talk
[00:41:56] about the molestation angle. Okay so the molestation angle really
[00:42:00] stood out to me when I first read this. I think
[00:42:04] there is, I guess this is going to sound like the understatement
[00:42:08] of the year but there is a stigma against being a pedophile
[00:42:12] and against being specifically a child predator, a child molester
[00:42:16] in our society. That's not
[00:42:20] a good thing as far as anyone is concerned. So
[00:42:24] someone opting to take on the label of child molester
[00:42:28] to me is highly significant.
[00:42:32] In cases where there is child molestation
[00:42:36] you often have perpetrators trying to kind of get around it by making excuses or
[00:42:40] dodging that label. A label that Richard Allen seems all too ready to embrace
[00:42:44] I think that's really shocking that he's essentially identifying himself as somebody
[00:42:48] who is attracted to children because
[00:42:52] why would that happen? Why would you do that?
[00:42:56] Why would you claim that I can understand, I guess from a personal perspective
[00:43:00] I can understand being incredibly depressed and being on a phone call
[00:43:04] with your wife and mother and telling them you know what I did it and you know what
[00:43:08] maybe you didn't. Maybe you're totally innocent of it but maybe you just want your loved ones
[00:43:12] to move on with their lives and forget you because you feel so bad about the agony
[00:43:16] that your situation is putting them through. To me
[00:43:20] that might speak to some sort of depression or some sort of self loathing
[00:43:24] or some sort of you know mental health issue
[00:43:28] but adopting the label of child molester
[00:43:32] saying that you molested kids
[00:43:36] I don't know what the reason would be to say that. I don't understand that at all
[00:43:40] and I want to say that
[00:43:44] the detail about him molesting
[00:43:48] young Abby and young Libby prior to killing
[00:43:52] them. I'm not sure if that is a false detail
[00:43:56] because I think a lot of these things depend on how you
[00:44:00] define molestation or how you define sexual
[00:44:04] assault. We know that prior to
[00:44:08] the killer taking the lives of these two children
[00:44:12] he made them strip and presumably that was for
[00:44:16] some sort of sexual gratification. So maybe
[00:44:20] to the mind of the person who did that, that would constitute
[00:44:24] molestation. There are cases where a perpetrator goes out
[00:44:28] to sexually assault somebody and then either because they fight
[00:44:32] back or because they panic or because the victims fight
[00:44:36] back or because the perpetrator panics or just something goes wrong
[00:44:40] or they get to that point and they don't want to do it
[00:44:44] and they kill the victim instead. The motivation
[00:44:48] seems to be to me in Delphi sexual, the fact that they're naked
[00:44:52] is kind of the biggest clue to that. I don't think they need
[00:44:56] to have been sexually assaulted for this to be a sexually motivated crime in some
[00:45:00] way. So I don't
[00:45:04] kidnaping two young girls and then forcing them to strip
[00:45:08] in the woods and then killing them
[00:45:12] I mean is it traditional child molestation in that there's a sexual
[00:45:16] assault? No. But could it be something that a child molester does?
[00:45:20] Yes, absolutely. I mean, I don't know.
[00:45:24] I was also struck by they said that Richard Allen
[00:45:28] passed Sorrow for molesting others whom he
[00:45:32] named and said this is known to be false and the obvious
[00:45:36] question is how do we know that it is false that he molested these other
[00:45:40] people he says he molested? Yes, has the defense investigated that? Have they
[00:45:44] interviewed the other purported victims?
[00:45:48] Are the other purported victims in a place where they would feel even comfortable divulging
[00:45:52] the truth about what happened? I would just want to know
[00:45:56] if they've basically gone through and done a very thorough investigation of their own and concluded that this
[00:46:00] couldn't have happened then I'd be very interested in seeing their notes on that.
[00:46:04] But I would be one thing I'm noting is that
[00:46:08] when they're talking about these are false and then they say because the
[00:46:12] coroner said there was no sexual assault but they don't get into why the other
[00:46:16] purported crimes could be false.
[00:46:20] So I'm
[00:46:24] it is a lot easier to explain away
[00:46:28] one confession than it is to explain not only multiple
[00:46:32] confessions but the fact that then you're saying essentially that
[00:46:36] you're a repeat child molester.
[00:46:40] Then I found it interesting that
[00:46:44] their belief is that the inmates sharing
[00:46:48] this information with their family members is a leak that should have
[00:46:52] been immediately reported. I would actually be curious when the defense
[00:46:56] receive recordings of these interviews
[00:47:00] because I think it would help all of us determine if they have a valid complaint there.
[00:47:04] Okay, yeah that is interesting seems to be more
[00:47:08] continuing to litigate their own leak.
[00:47:12] And then I wanted to highlight what I think is arguably
[00:47:16] the single most important line
[00:47:20] in this entire document.
[00:47:24] As we said a moment ago in their earlier discussions
[00:47:28] of the confessions they're highlighting things like oh he said they were shot and they weren't shot so
[00:47:32] these aren't even true.
[00:47:36] These are false confessions. He said he molested them and
[00:47:40] we don't think they were molested so false confessions
[00:47:44] that doing what they can to make it sound like the confessions he made
[00:47:48] were all false with false information which makes this line
[00:47:52] the most crucial line to me. They write quote,
[00:47:56] or falsity of Allen's statements are of no consequence to this analysis.
[00:48:00] So again in this
[00:48:04] memorandum they've been highlighting confessions Allen has made which they believe have false elements.
[00:48:08] This line suggests very very clearly
[00:48:12] to me that other confessions have been made.
[00:48:16] Confessions which may be wholly true. So it's interesting
[00:48:20] the defense is seeming to concede that some of the crimining statements made by Richard
[00:48:24] Allen may very well be true. I would be curious about
[00:48:28] those confessions and do they contain
[00:48:32] details that only the killer would know.
[00:48:36] Or is just the repetition and force of them enough to
[00:48:40] possibly be pretty convincing to a jury. It's a really good point Kevin.
[00:48:44] I think you're good at weeding out some of the lawyerly language where it's like
[00:48:48] oh okay this is what this means.
[00:48:52] I also thought it was just worth noting that in this memorandum
[00:48:56] they're talking about
[00:49:00] making claims and talking about all of the confessions as a whole
[00:49:04] instead of talking about them separately. And what I would expect
[00:49:08] what the judge would really need would be some sort
[00:49:12] of list of each specific confession
[00:49:16] along with an explanation of why each and every
[00:49:20] one of them individually needs to be thrown out.
[00:49:24] Right. Because I could imagine that maybe there are
[00:49:28] some confessions which should be thrown out
[00:49:32] others which shouldn't be thrown out. So it's not
[00:49:36] either everything or nothing situation. So I'm not clear
[00:49:40] why that wasn't done. Yeah that's a good question
[00:49:44] because you would think that it's better to at least get a bunch of them thrown out
[00:49:48] than to you know not get any
[00:49:52] you might as well go for knocking off
[00:49:56] a few rocks off the pile than just kind of not trying at all.
[00:50:00] Do you think that they have any grounds to
[00:50:04] possibly get some of these convert?
[00:50:08] What do you think the outcome to this is going to be I guess?
[00:50:12] I need more information. If some of these inmates were
[00:50:16] acting at the behest of the state if they were given specific questions
[00:50:20] to ask or things of that nature of Richard Allen
[00:50:24] I'd have a problem with that and maybe some of these confessions should be thrown out.
[00:50:28] That makes sense. I think you wanted to talk about
[00:50:32] jailhouse snitches in general. Well yeah so this is something
[00:50:36] I've not been sure about saying on this show I have an issue with
[00:50:40] jailhouse snitches I have an issue with prison house snitches. I think in many cases
[00:50:44] this kind of witness has been detrimental
[00:50:48] because in many situations a jailhouse snitch or a
[00:50:52] prison house snitch may be incentivized in some ways to provide
[00:50:56] information beneficial to the state where none exists
[00:51:00] basically making up. If you tell me Anya
[00:51:04] if you get any information from your bunk mate
[00:51:08] about this murder then we can work out a deal with you to dismiss some of your
[00:51:12] serial thieving charges. I'm incentivized to
[00:51:16] hear things that didn't actually get said so in general
[00:51:20] that kind of evidence makes me uneasy so I think
[00:51:24] the defense has that going in their favor that I think people
[00:51:28] are increasingly skeptical of jailhouse and prison house
[00:51:32] testimony because there might be incentives
[00:51:36] I think but this remains a huge problem for
[00:51:40] them seemingly because of the sheer quantity
[00:51:44] of incriminating statements. He is not telling one person
[00:51:48] this who's then making a big deal of it or one person could be
[00:51:52] making it up he is seemingly telling everybody who will listen
[00:51:56] that what he did and what you know
[00:52:00] his version of what he did and his version of his motives and this stuff and that
[00:52:04] and that's really problematic in addition to
[00:52:08] that it's not just people who are incarcerated or hearing these
[00:52:12] it's the guards themselves as the people who work at this prison they're hearing
[00:52:16] it too and they make it clear that these confessions and these
[00:52:20] incriminating statements were to guards and inmates that is a huge
[00:52:24] problem quantity and the fact that this occurred with both
[00:52:28] guards and inmates may supersede
[00:52:32] to a large degree in my opinion any uneasiness
[00:52:36] around jailhouse and prison house testimony
[00:52:40] now this also frankly
[00:52:44] makes some of the behavior by the defense team make a little bit more sense
[00:52:48] why would you go for smearing guards
[00:52:52] as committed odinous to a part of some large statewide conspiracy when you could easily
[00:52:56] just say he had a mental health crisis and that's why he said those things
[00:53:00] well if you want to also smear the guards to basically
[00:53:04] you can't trust these guys they're odinous or their colleagues are
[00:53:08] odinous and they're part of this conspiracy so it's a way that kind of
[00:53:12] whole odinous guard thing was seemingly a way to try to get ahead of these
[00:53:16] multiple confessions and smear essentially the staff at
[00:53:20] Westville in anticipation of them coming out and saying
[00:53:24] he told us he did this that's the that's the what I read into that
[00:53:28] I think that this document
[00:53:32] seems like they're trying to very much get ahead of this kind of
[00:53:36] incoming flood of confessions that he's done
[00:53:40] and that makes sense that I will say this that is good strategy by the defense in my opinion
[00:53:44] it's always better to put out
[00:53:48] your version of events first so you can spin it so like if it's going to come out
[00:53:52] later that I was busted for a serial heist it would be great if Kevin could go
[00:53:56] together you know put together a statement or a filing about how desperate and hungry and sad I was
[00:54:00] and how I was going to give the serial to orphans you know regardless
[00:54:04] you know regardless of anything if he can put his own spin on it to make me look better
[00:54:08] that's good if the prosecution puts out a filing about how much heartless serial
[00:54:12] fee first then that's not as good for me
[00:54:16] so in terms of public perception it's helpful to get things out first
[00:54:20] and then I would say you know telling your wife and mother that you
[00:54:24] did the crime in a recorded phone call that's very bad
[00:54:28] because that's not a that's not a hulking
[00:54:32] interrogator who's trying to put you in jail those are people who support you
[00:54:36] and you're telling them it's exponentially worse to then
[00:54:40] go and repeat repeatedly do this
[00:54:44] for months even to the point where you're not just confessing to the crime
[00:54:48] at the heart of all this you're confessing to other crimes
[00:54:52] and you're labeling yourself as a child molester who's sexually interested in children
[00:54:56] that goes beyond anything I mean that is just
[00:55:00] there's no it's going to be very difficult to reason that away
[00:55:04] I mean I would be curious about what mental health experts say
[00:55:08] I don't know if a mental health crisis could fully
[00:55:12] excuse months and months of confessions
[00:55:16] but I'd be interested in hearing what the experts say because we're not mental health experts
[00:55:20] and perhaps there's some way that this is
[00:55:24] this is a symptom of a wider mental health issue that
[00:55:28] would make sense but we do know that mental health
[00:55:32] professionals who assessed Alan at Westville
[00:55:36] you know when it came to his really bad behavior all
[00:55:40] basically said that he did not need further medication or forced medication and then
[00:55:44] then he stopped his behavior so one thing about mental health crises
[00:55:48] is like you can't control them typically you can't just necessarily
[00:55:52] stop so that the fact that he was able to
[00:55:56] at some point stop the bad behavior
[00:56:00] is notable to me I would say
[00:56:04] on the surface it seems to me that Alan is either a guilty man
[00:56:08] who in 2023 was desperately trying to do the right thing
[00:56:12] and confess and that this may have been halted by the people
[00:56:16] in his life and his defense team a defense team that is of course married to a very
[00:56:20] colorful media friendly actual innocence defense
[00:56:24] and basically they diverted him
[00:56:28] or he is an innocent man who has for some reason opted to do
[00:56:32] everything he can in his power to get himself convicted
[00:56:36] even to the point of labeling himself as a child molester
[00:56:40] so either way
[00:56:44] he has done himself significant damage
[00:56:48] in that trial if any of this remains in
[00:56:52] if the defense doesn't get this thrown out this is going to hurt
[00:56:56] and I don't know if they if they if they get it thrown out
[00:57:00] it'll help him if they don't then repeated
[00:57:04] confessions around this even if he's bungling details at times
[00:57:08] is going to be a hard thing for the jury to hear and then explain
[00:57:12] away in my opinion very well
[00:57:16] so I want to thank everyone for listening
[00:57:20] and for being patient with me as
[00:57:24] I'm clearly far from my best
[00:57:28] it's my earliest hope that by next week I'll be back to normal
[00:57:32] especially I think we have two of the three episodes
[00:57:36] that are pre-recorded from before my surgery. Oh there you go
[00:57:40] so if Kevin goes back to sounding normal fast that's why. Hopefully by next week
[00:57:44] I'll be back in a cheat sheet I'll be back in fighting form. I bet you will
[00:57:48] and everyone if you pray say a little prayer for Kevin's recovery and if you don't
[00:57:52] just send good vibes. And again thank you so much for listening
[00:57:56] and for your patience with my sluggish performance
[00:58:00] I'm going to go back to bed. Alright thanks everyone
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