The Delphi Murders: More Defense Filings

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[00:02:25] Content warning this episode includes discussion of the murder of two children.

[00:02:30] Today on the murder sheet we are going to be discussing some new filings that have come down in

[00:02:38] the Delphi case and this is all in the run up of course to the hearings that are going to occur

[00:02:44] on Monday, one of which is a contempt hearing. These focus on the contempt hearing

[00:02:51] and I guess we're gonna talk about maybe what to expect and these latest filings.

[00:02:58] My name is Ania Cain. I'm a journalist and I'm Kevin Greenley. I'm an attorney.

[00:03:03] And this is the murder sheet. We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting,

[00:03:08] interviews and deep dives into murder cases. We're the murder sheet.

[00:03:14] And this is The Delphi Murders, More Defense Filings.

[00:03:33] I think it's actually

[00:04:03] difficult to try to discuss what to expect because who knows?

[00:04:10] For one thing, the defense has filed a lot of motions indicating they want to call witnesses

[00:04:19] to discuss the behavior or the alleged behavior of prosecutor Nick McLean especially is it relates

[00:04:27] to the prosecutor McLean's purported communication with YouTuber such as Gary Budette.

[00:04:34] They've indicated that they also want to hint that there might be some sort of source who works

[00:04:41] for the judge or with the judge who might have been leaking information.

[00:04:46] While all of that is interesting, it is not clear if it would even be allowed in the hearing

[00:04:53] because the hearing is actually supposed to be about the behavior of the defense attorneys.

[00:04:57] Which frankly for the most part, although they do get into it somewhat in today's violence

[00:05:03] is not really been discussed by them that much or explained and that's kind of interesting in

[00:05:09] and of itself. I think one thing that's clear to me is that by bringing in YouTubers and online figures

[00:05:19] to discuss some of this, it kind of adds to the circus atmosphere of this whole situation

[00:05:29] bringing in non-credible people. Like if you bring YouTuber number five into to say he knows for

[00:05:36] a fact because the aliens told him that Nick McLean is talking to other YouTubers. How is that

[00:05:44] relevant and how can anybody trust any of these people? I mean, they're so eager to put these

[00:05:51] people on the stand and these people are so eager to comply. There's something very

[00:05:56] gross and off-putting about their strategy going into this. And frankly, I see this as potentially

[00:06:03] if they're allowed to bring in some of these sources, it's potentially a turning point as far

[00:06:07] as the defense's credibility. And along those lines, let's note that one of the recent

[00:06:16] finalings is a list of additional witness. I won't read this. Comes now, Council for Defense

[00:06:25] Council and notifies the state in the court that he intends to call Richard Snaid during the

[00:06:30] contempt hearing. Council first learned of the substance and importance of Mr. Snaid's testimony

[00:06:36] on March 14, 2024 when he returned to call as requested in a voicemail. Notice is being given the

[00:06:43] same day and that signed by David Hennessy. Now I'm not sure what Richard Snaid intends to testify to.

[00:06:55] Richard Snaid certainly told a variety of different stories about his involvement and the League

[00:07:03] of Fair, which is at the center of the contempt hearings. Someone did send us a clip from an episode

[00:07:13] if it's a YouTube show where Mr. Snaid said, oh some people think Murdersheet played me.

[00:07:20] Let's see what Kevin Ananya say or have Kevin Ania ask me about that after Monday. That suggests

[00:07:28] the possibility that he intends in his testimony to somehow attack us. I'd certainly like to make

[00:07:37] the obvious point that we never under any circumstances discuss sourcing with Mr. Snaid.

[00:07:45] I know he's tried to put out some sort of utterly bizarre and frankly ridiculous conspiracy theory

[00:07:53] where we were somehow involved with a plot to leak pictures to him so that he would share them

[00:08:00] for the record. That's a stupid idea, that's a stupid plot but for the record I categorically

[00:08:06] deny that it's an odd situation for us to be in because we never want to be a part of the story.

[00:08:14] All that happened is what we told you. We got leaked graphic crime scene pictures.

[00:08:20] We notified the prosecution. We contacted the defense and we cooperated as I would hope

[00:08:27] any good citizen would do. Because of that certain people in the YouTube community and the

[00:08:35] Reddit community who align themselves with the defense have been attacking us and accusing

[00:08:42] us of being a part of the leak of organizing the leak. I would certainly hope that the defense team

[00:08:52] doesn't put anyone on the stand who was going to purger themselves or do unhinged hearsay

[00:08:59] and make baseless accusations because obviously if it comes to that we would vigorously defend

[00:09:07] ourselves. Yes, quite vigorously and quite ably I would say. I would say this.

[00:09:13] Maybe a month ago if you told me, hey, do you think the defense is going to defend themselves on

[00:09:18] the contempt charges by bringing in a bunch of lawyers who can talk about what contempt is or do you

[00:09:23] think they're going to bring in a bunch of YouTubers who are going to scream and cry and throw up

[00:09:30] and make themselves look like idiots. I would say the first option because that makes sense

[00:09:36] but I don't really necessarily just the way things have been going with some of these

[00:09:40] filings, some of that confidence that I had in the level of defense we're going to be getting here

[00:09:45] has declined. We are both of the strong belief that credibility is something that

[00:09:54] is very difficult to claw back once you've lost it, that once you are essentially famous for

[00:10:03] telling lies on the internet, spreading around rumors and conspiracy theories

[00:10:07] being wrong constantly. Putting ridiculous witnesses on the stand. Attacking others

[00:10:15] and yeah, in the case of defense putting ridiculous witnesses on the stand.

[00:10:20] I mean, I can't emphasize enough how better off you would be

[00:10:25] not going, if Hennessy went door to door and in de Napolis and asked random people what they

[00:10:29] thought about this and then put them on the stand. You would be better off with that because even though

[00:10:33] they're not informed, they've not outed themselves as bad actors. Unlike everybody else aside from

[00:10:41] Matt Hoffman that they're calling. Matt Hoffman is a reason to be there. Matt Hoffman is a defense

[00:10:45] investigator. He may have something legitimate to say. Everybody else, I mean it's a circus.

[00:10:54] They're bringing in the clowns and frankly the whole thing leaves a very bad taste in the mouth

[00:11:02] and I don't think I'm alone in saying that at this point. It's a shame because I thought some of

[00:11:07] Hennessy's early filings were made sense as far as strategy and seemed like a good way to tackle

[00:11:15] this. But obviously, this is the defense team that I think it ties into their overall strategy.

[00:11:21] But I kind of feel like again, Monday could be a turning point as far as how they're received.

[00:11:28] I don't think it benefits their client to play to the YouTube audience which is comparatively

[00:11:34] very small compared to the wider world. You could win on YouTube and alienate everybody else who

[00:11:42] is a reasonable person. And it's really when I say YouTube, it's a corner of YouTube. It's not

[00:11:47] even all of YouTube. But those people, the pro defense YouTubers are virantly pro defense. So I

[00:11:54] think there's like an ego boost in having people who really have your back. But the cost is that

[00:12:00] everybody else is standing there feeling like what the heck is going on? And one thing that's

[00:12:05] interesting as we mentioned the other day is pretty easy to determine who on YouTube is most

[00:12:12] closely aligned with the defense because they got advanced looks at one of Hennessy's motions

[00:12:18] this week. So just look and see who covered it the day before it appeared on my case. And those are

[00:12:24] some of the voices that they are most acidiously courting. I mean, which is stupid because

[00:12:31] they're courting the converted. They're evangelizing to the converted. There's no, you know, there's

[00:12:37] no new ad there. And in addition, it is just I can't emphasize how dumb it is to leak something

[00:12:44] that is going to go up the following morning. Like there's no benefit. I mean, you're trying

[00:12:51] to set a narrative but these people have limited reach. They've already out of themselves in most

[00:12:56] cases to be again pro one side to the point of being untrustworthy. And again, like there's no

[00:13:04] utility. Like there's just well, the only utility is that it outs the people who have some sort of

[00:13:10] relationship with David Hennessy in the defense doesn't that's not utility for the defense that

[00:13:14] just makes them look foolish. Well, it's utility for the rest of us. It's a utility for the rest of

[00:13:19] it. I mean, it's just again, it's clown town. I'm sorry like it I can't it's shocking. And frankly,

[00:13:25] it's getting to the point where you know, there's like serious criticisms to be made of the prosecution

[00:13:32] or law enforcement or the judge. But when when you're basically like hold my beer, like let me out

[00:13:39] do all of that, you're distracting from criticism that you could be making of the other side.

[00:13:45] So focusing on some of the other emotions made concerning specifically the contempt hearing

[00:13:52] now scheduled for Monday, March 18th as we mentioned, there was some motions filed to

[00:13:57] continue it or even wait until after the trial. Surely it won't come as a shock to anyone

[00:14:05] that prosecutor Nick McLean formerly filed an objection to all of that. He doesn't want to wait.

[00:14:12] He wants to have it done and over with on Monday. I'm honestly surprised that the defense

[00:14:19] doesn't want that at this point to you. I mean, having an opportunity to vigorously defend

[00:14:23] themselves from the charges and then moving on. You know, it just like this is a strategy of

[00:14:29] delay going on that I don't understand because they've had months to brace for this because since

[00:14:34] they've come back given that Hennessy himself suggested that contempt would be a reasonable outcome

[00:14:41] of all of this, I would think that they would at least be thinking about how are we going to defend

[00:14:46] ourselves from that? Yeah, and also you think they would be tired of having an ongoing topic

[00:14:55] of conversation be their alleged and purported misbehavior. You would think they would want to turn

[00:15:03] the page close that chapter. Let's have this conversation. Let's get it settled. Let's move on.

[00:15:10] As long as it's an open book, as long as it's still going to be discussed and argued about in court

[00:15:17] and such. I don't see how that helps them to have constant reminders of what happened.

[00:15:24] Also, I mean just from a practical standpoint, I believe they can appeal. So if they've essentially

[00:15:32] they've made it clear that they feel judge gullas biased against them and blah, blah, blah. Now the

[00:15:37] Indiana Supreme Court seems to have disagreed and essentially said that nothing she did was biased.

[00:15:43] It was in the interest of the case. They just feel she did the wrong thing so they put the attorneys

[00:15:47] back on. So as far as the highest court in Indiana is concerned, she gets kind of a blank check

[00:15:54] prior to them being reinstated. So I think if they're really feeling oh no we're not going to get

[00:16:01] a fair shot with her, do it and then appeal it. I mean like get it over with. All the delays,

[00:16:10] what are they afraid of? Again, I don't understand unless there's stuff that's not out there right

[00:16:16] now that is bad for them. The fear and consternation from this side over this one hearing where as far

[00:16:25] as we've heard, the only consequences might be financial or maybe they get some sort of like

[00:16:31] you guys need to be viewing certain sensitive documents while supervised by some sort of court staff.

[00:16:40] I don't really see it's not an existential threat like being kicked off is.

[00:16:46] So I don't again, I don't know why and again you have the option I imagine to appeal

[00:16:52] whatever judge gullas decision is that would delay things more sure but

[00:16:57] I to me it's like I don't understand the the reaction to this and I don't understand

[00:17:05] why you wouldn't just have a bunch of respected smart attorneys who know what they're talking about

[00:17:12] who may have been in similar situations or at the very least can speak to what contempt is

[00:17:16] and what it isn't get up there and say that this is not contempt. That carries a lot of weight with

[00:17:23] mysteries are the heart of everything we do here on the murder sheet but sometimes it's more fun

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[00:19:15] So let's move on to another filing from this morning. David Hennessy filed a memorandum concerning

[00:19:23] contempt proceedings and he's basically giving us all a preview of some of the arguments he's

[00:19:32] going to make on some of the different points. For instance, it's been argued that the fact that

[00:19:39] Baldwin and Rosie issued a press release was a violation of the gag order and therefore indicated

[00:19:47] contempt but here is what attorney Hennessy has to say about that. He writes that the gag order was

[00:19:55] issued on December 22nd, 2022 and states explicitly that it was issued in response to the

[00:20:02] defense press release from December 1, 2022. Thus the press release could not have violated

[00:20:08] an order issued the next day. What do you think about argument? I think that's a fair argument.

[00:20:14] In previous prosecution filings it came out that the defense prosecution and the judge had a

[00:20:21] conversation prior to this where they all agreed that they were not going to try it in the press

[00:20:26] and going to avoid doing things like this. So essentially they pulled one over on the judge

[00:20:32] potentially but if they're not violating the official gag order that came down, that might be

[00:20:38] something that would certainly undermine trust but that's not a violation of a gag order. If the

[00:20:44] gag order doesn't exist when you're allegedly violating it I don't see how you can be penalized for

[00:20:49] that. The next issue of import is that of accidentally misdirected email. This of course

[00:20:56] refers to the fact that at some point relatively early on it has representation of Richard Allen,

[00:21:04] attorney Andrew Baldwin is said to have accidentally forwarded some information to Brandon Woodhouse

[00:21:13] that he intended to send to Brad Rosie. I believe what was forwarded was a list or in index they

[00:21:20] had begun to prepare of some discovery materials. What does Hennessy have to say about that?

[00:21:27] Hennessy talks about how this could happen to anybody with email. This is something that's common

[00:21:35] and he says that they fully explained what happened and that they didn't mean it on purpose.

[00:21:41] It's interesting to me that he keeps on you know he refers it to Baldwin and Rosie given that

[00:21:46] it came out in the chambers meeting between all of the attorneys when they were initially when

[00:21:52] they initially withdrew that Rosie apparently didn't even know about this. So I don't know

[00:22:01] I think it's bizarre not to tell your co-counsel that something like that happened.

[00:22:05] That actually kind of brings us to the next point in the memo which is headlined

[00:22:10] candor towards the tribunal. In other words, did Andrew Baldwin have a duty as soon as he

[00:22:17] accidentally sent this email to Brandon Woodhouse to notify the judge? What does Hennessy say about that?

[00:22:23] He basically says he didn't have the obligation to be honest about what happened as long as he

[00:22:30] wasn't actively lying. He's arguing that it would have been wrong for Baldwin to get out there

[00:22:36] and say I didn't send an email today to anybody that I shouldn't have apropos of nothing, but

[00:22:42] that it would that that would be wrong. But if he just didn't say anything then he's not lying.

[00:22:49] Okay. So is a layperson? Is an attorney that sort of makes sense to me? Is a layperson

[00:22:54] you're laughing? I've gotten used to the attorney's way of thinking so I think I understand it,

[00:22:59] but I think to most people, you know, I'm not lying because I didn't actively lie, but I just

[00:23:05] don't admit it. But I mean again, it's all about what what the lawyers think it's all about what

[00:23:09] the judge thinks it's all about what the legal system is. So you have to go with that even if

[00:23:14] it sounds foreign to laypeople. Yeah, and again as we alluded to earlier, some of these arguments that

[00:23:22] he's making, they may not be slam dunk arguments, but at the very least they are plausible arguments.

[00:23:28] Most of this stuff in my opinion is fine and even well thought out like that's why I don't understand

[00:23:37] the other stuff because it's like you have some perfectly good arguments here. It's like I'm making

[00:23:41] a nice sandwich and then I you know dump a bunch of old garbage old relish I find in the fridge on

[00:23:47] it. It's like I just wrecked a decent sandwich for what? I guess maybe to give some of my biggest

[00:23:55] fans a thrill. I mean, like is that it? I mean and that's not a good reason. That's not like I can't

[00:24:01] emphasize enough how disturbing I find the defenses continuous courting of conspiracy theorists they've

[00:24:09] cited YouTubers they've leaked to youtubers you know, they've it's interesting that oftentimes on

[00:24:16] YouTube you see like the same talking points come up again and again and maybe that's people

[00:24:21] being hacks who can you know, conjure up an original thought in their lives or maybe this so I

[00:24:27] mean, I don't know it's just it's bizarre to see and it doesn't benefit them in the long term

[00:24:32] because these people have very little influence in the wider community. So I don't

[00:24:38] and again, I don't get if it was a strategy that I thought was morally reprehensible but there

[00:24:42] was like some real utility to it at least I'd like respect it. The issues we don't know what

[00:24:47] we don't know so we don't know if there's going to be something shocking coming out at the hearing

[00:24:52] this that perhaps they know about that we don't but based upon what we do know, there are plausible

[00:24:59] and strong arguments to be made that perhaps this is not contempt and perhaps they should not

[00:25:06] be found in contempt and so it is confusing as to why they don't focus on that instead of this

[00:25:13] other material. It seems like they have some good arguments in that department, it seems like

[00:25:17] they have some really talented law you know, like lawyers who can come in and speak to that

[00:25:24] and to me that's all great strong, lawyering but when you're you know adding to that just people

[00:25:31] who have no credibility, who have no business being there who treat this like it's a wrestling match

[00:25:36] who have lied repeatedly deceived their audiences and each other repeatedly online

[00:25:43] that really takes away from some of this and like it's just embarrassing again, like I mean

[00:25:49] talk about inserting themselves into this case. I mean it's about egos with some of these

[00:25:54] YouTubers and like inviting them in you know the one time we filed into the case it was to get

[00:26:00] documents released like that's all we care about you know let's have more transparency in the case

[00:26:06] of you know this leak we did not want to be involved in this but we felt we had to do the right

[00:26:10] thing by coming forward and you know turns out afterwards a bunch of bunch of frigging YouTubers

[00:26:16] had this stuff days earlier said nothing. We're talking about the leak let's discuss how attorney

[00:26:22] Hanesie covers it in this memo he says the leak complained of cannot be laid at the feet of defense

[00:26:29] council it is beyond cavalved they did not provide any part of discovery by photographs or

[00:26:34] otherwise to anyone outside the defense team that might be an issue at the hearing because I believe

[00:26:45] there were some hints in some motions that perhaps the Franks memorandum which may or may not

[00:26:52] included some of these crime scene photographs may have been shared with michewesterman so I think

[00:26:56] that is an issue that will probably be discussed at the hearing and then uh mr. Hanesie goes on

[00:27:06] to know it is impossible to tell exactly what information on the internet came from where

[00:27:12] that's not true yes that's that but I think that goes to the heart of whether strategies been

[00:27:18] with some of these YouTubers and other things who was to say who has what when they're just like

[00:27:22] oh there's lots of leaks who knows where they come from and then he has a page on here where they

[00:27:29] repeat some a lot of material about mr. Bodette who used to be known as fig solves indicating that

[00:27:37] he had some leaks somebody working for the judge and the he even gives some specific examples

[00:27:43] where mr. Bodette seemed to have some information about the bullet which he was sharing publicly

[00:27:50] before the pca came out that was a pretty closely held secret so so he's essentially saying how could

[00:27:57] he have known this unless he had the sources he claimed he had and when the sources he claimed

[00:28:03] he had with somebody who worked with the judge so maybe everybody's leaking he also

[00:28:10] makes the claim that uh Barbara Mcdonald had a

[00:28:14] Barbara Mcdonald had a stick drawing a photograph of the tree and professor turkos report

[00:28:21] that could not have come from or be connected to the defense I admit I'm not uh following a lot

[00:28:29] of mr. McDonald's work this is the first I've heard that she's had a copy of the turkos report

[00:28:35] so maybe that's something that would be elaborated upon do you have any uh thoughts

[00:28:43] on any of the things I've just mentioned I mean it's kind of like I don't know at this point

[00:28:50] with with Hennessy strategy on all of this you know some of it then I might be

[00:28:56] taking pretty seriously in normal circumstances I'm kind of like well I guess that's the

[00:29:02] Hennessy interpretation you know let's see what happens in court you know let's see what how it

[00:29:07] comes down in court I'm not really prepared to necessarily like I mean again like I'm not aware

[00:29:13] Barbara Mcdonald publishing the turko report I guess if she did then sorry but I don't like

[00:29:19] so I'm so I have to ask did she email the defense and say I have the turko report did she

[00:29:25] is it just like her reporting is so spot on that she must have the turko report I don't know

[00:29:30] like I don't know because they're not because this is basically thrown out in a sentence and then

[00:29:36] you know moved on from it's very hard to analyze the validity of these claims

[00:29:41] also you know with Professor turko's report is this something that he did recently is this

[00:29:49] something that he did in 2017 if let's say I'm not saying this happened but if turko

[00:29:58] gave her his report back early early on before Richard Allen even came up on the radar

[00:30:05] is that necessarily as catastrophic a leak as if like a police official a few weeks ago gave it to her

[00:30:12] I mean like you know what I'm saying like there's different there's different levels and to me

[00:30:20] the if if it's a scenario on par with a recently from a police official that's that's a problem

[00:30:28] that's absolutely a problem if it's what I described initially like a civilian

[00:30:34] pasted on to her early on and she's never reported on it in full then I don't know

[00:30:40] I that that sort of seems like an apples and oranges comparison that seems like

[00:30:45] that does not rise the level of a former employee and close friend of one of the defense attorneys

[00:30:51] putting out

[00:30:53] what he put out those discovery materials those incredibly graphic images that are incendiary in nature

[00:31:01] and and obviously the he keeps on referring to them as discovery materials because that's a

[00:31:06] neutral way of describing them they are graphic crime scene photos of the murder of two children

[00:31:12] I don't know like some of this like well isn't everyone doing it like I'd not really seen a lot

[00:31:17] of evidence for that I with with with the Gary Boat dad stuff I don't know like there's

[00:31:24] just again given our dealings with him I I took with me for somebody who may have you know is saying

[00:31:31] that he had sources he got a lot wrong I you know I'm just but in fairness to Mr. Hennessey

[00:31:36] Hennessey is pointing out an opportunity when Hennessey is pointing out rather an occasion where

[00:31:42] Mr. Badek got something right he knew about the bullet before that information was public to

[00:31:48] me that's the strongest point in the kind of counter leak scenario but unless we can point to

[00:31:57] boh debt specifically receiving that information from somebody who's covered by the gag order

[00:32:03] I don't I don't know how much he can do with that and again given that this hearing is a

[00:32:09] contempt hearing for the defense attorneys vaguely flinging mud that we don't know the source of

[00:32:14] just feels like desperation I guess arguments have to go both ways let's assume for the sake of

[00:32:20] argument that Mr. Boat debt did indeed receive information about the bullet from a court employee

[00:32:30] if that was the case it appears he would have received that information prior to the release

[00:32:36] of the gag order and Mr. Hennessey is arguing that basically anything from before the gag order

[00:32:42] doesn't count so if that's the standard that we use when we discuss the behavior of attorneys

[00:32:48] bald women rosy perhaps we should use a similar standard when it comes to the behavior of Mr.

[00:32:54] Badek's alleged source and to be clear I have no idea who Mr. Badek's alleged court source is

[00:33:03] I'm not I'm not personally convinced that he'd had one that's just me I don't know if it turns out

[00:33:10] that it was someone in an official capacity was leaking to him obviously that becomes a

[00:33:13] significantly more serious situation in my opinion is there anything else you wanted to say about

[00:33:19] any of this is it a question we often ask at the interviewers I don't know why I'm asking you

[00:33:25] is there anything else you want to say about any of this ms. Can or we covered everything sufficiently

[00:33:30] I I think we've covered it pretty sufficiently I feel like if you're hearing exasperation for me

[00:33:38] about any of this it's just because I'm seeing legal strategy that strikes me as solid good compelling

[00:33:46] being overshadowed by legal strategy that just seems incredibly stupid and shortsighted

[00:33:52] yeah because there's there's ways plausibly they could win this I think that if judge

[00:33:58] gold doesn't allow them to have their YouTube you know little YouTube junior detectives running around

[00:34:05] I think that she would be doing them a massive favor

[00:34:10] I think she would be doing a massive favor from an optics point of view a PR point of view

[00:34:16] and a legal point of view because having a bunch of people get up there and lie or you know

[00:34:21] certainly purge her themselves but also just engage in hearsay and like that's just my opinion.

[00:34:26] So with all of that said it is my earnest hope that you will not have a new episode from us

[00:34:32] until after court on Monday because the only way you get a new episode from us prior to that would be

[00:34:39] if something really big happens if there's some another big filing or something of that nature

[00:34:44] hopefully that won't happen hopefully this is the end of the filings until the court hearing and if

[00:34:51] that is the case I hope you all have a wonderful weekend and I look forward to talking with you again

[00:34:56] on Monday thank you thanks so much for listening to the murder sheet if you have a tip concerning one

[00:35:04] of the cases we cover please email us at murder sheet at gmail.com if you have actionable information

[00:35:13] about an unsolved crime please report it to the appropriate authorities.

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[00:35:38] murder sheet we very much appreciate any support special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenley who composed

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