The Delphi Murders: Motion to Suppress the Accused's Second Statement

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[00:01:47] Content warning. This episode contains discussion of murder.

[00:01:51] It also contains profanity.

[00:01:54] Today on the Murder Sheet, we're going to be talking about a pretty interesting filing that came out from the defense team recently.

[00:02:01] This, of course, is the motion to suppress Richard Allen's second statement to police.

[00:02:07] We're going to talk about what this all means, topic of Miranda rights,

[00:02:12] and just kind of get into what this reveals about the early days of the investigation into Richard Allen for the murders of

[00:02:20] Delphi teenagers Abigail Williams and Liberty German.

[00:02:24] My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist.

[00:02:27] And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

[00:02:29] And this is the Murder Sheet.

[00:02:31] We're a true crime podcast focused on original reported interviews and deep dives into murder cases.

[00:02:37] We're the Murder Sheet.

[00:02:39] And this is the Delphi murders motion to suppress the accused's second statement.

[00:03:10] I always think it's interesting when we look at these documents to try to let them speak for themselves.

[00:03:38] In other words, instead of having us as a filter, why don't we at least begin by having the person who wrote the document basically explain in their words what they think it's about.

[00:03:49] And this document is written by Andrew Baldwin, of course, one of Richard Allen's defense attorneys.

[00:03:55] And let's hear how he sums it up.

[00:04:08] Okay. So there is a lot to

[00:04:18] Okay. So there is a lot to pack there.

[00:04:29] And before we really get into the specific allegations that attorney Baldwin and the attorney

[00:04:36] Baldwin is making, I think it is interesting to try to focus as much as we can on that October 26

[00:04:44] interrogation and try to figure out as much as we can what it was the Richard Allen

[00:04:52] said during that interrogation that perhaps attorneys Baldwin and Rosie would like to see suppressed.

[00:05:00] I think you did some research on that.

[00:05:02] I will be reading from the probable cause affidavit for Richard Allen's arrest.

[00:05:07] This gets into some of the most recent investigations that have been made about the murder of Richard Allen.

[00:05:15] I will be reading from the probable cause affidavit for Richard Allen's arrest.

[00:05:20] This gets into some of the details about that October 26, 2022 meeting.

[00:05:27] Richard Allen voluntarily came to the Indiana State Police Post on October 26, 2022.

[00:05:33] He spoke with investigators and stated that he never allowed anyone to use or borrow the SIG Sourd Model P226 firearm.

[00:05:42] When asked about the unspent bullet, he did not have an explanation of why the bullet was found between the bodies of victim one and victim two.

[00:05:49] He again admitted that he was on the trail but denied knowing victim one or victim two and denied any involvement in their murders.

[00:05:56] Okay, so in this interrogation, he basically said he didn't loan the gun out to anybody else and he didn't know why a bullet was there.

[00:06:07] So that is ultimately important to note because that is what is at stake here.

[00:06:11] When the defense is asking for this evidence to be suppressed, they're talking about specifically the statement he made in this second interview with police.

[00:06:19] And basically the stuff from this interview that is mentioned in the PCA, which seems to therefore indicate that it's the most important aspects of the interview,

[00:06:30] is the fact that he did not loan his gun out to anybody else.

[00:06:34] So if the defense succeeds in getting the suppressed, then the prosecution can't use that statement from him that he did not loan his gun out to other people.

[00:06:44] And that's crucial because of course a bullet from that gun was found at the crime scene near one of the bodies of one of the girls.

[00:06:54] So if he's saying I never loaned it out, that means basically he's the only one who could have left the bullet there.

[00:07:04] If you know a crazy hypothetical, let's say that there is a gun club in town and he would often let the gun club borrow the gun or something like that.

[00:07:15] Then you wouldn't be able to say for certainty whose hands were on the gun at the time it deposited the bullet.

[00:07:22] But if Richard Allen is saying I never loaned it to anybody, it has to be in his hands.

[00:07:29] Yes, so it is somewhat important, although I guess we'll get into this more, but I don't know that it's necessarily incredibly detrimental to the state's case if they lose this

[00:07:43] because I don't really see this defense team then turning around and saying well Brad Holder barred the gun.

[00:07:48] They're not going to try to connect their client, I don't think, to a group of avowed odinists or what they avow as odinists that they say murdered the girls in a ritual sacrifice.

[00:08:01] I just don't really see that happening but let's move along.

[00:08:06] I don't know how important I see this.

[00:08:11] I see what your point is and I think if we had a situation where they were trying to pin the crimes on, let's say his neighbor who he was friends with.

[00:08:24] This is a complete hypothetical but let's say he's got a neighbor buddy, they go shooting together and the defense's theory in some hypothetical universe is that the neighbor did it because he borrowed his gun.

[00:08:35] In that case, this would be really bad if the state lost this because who's to say that the neighbor didn't do it?

[00:08:41] We've established that both of them have the gun and if Richard Allen admits no I never loaned in to him, maybe when you lose that the defense can construct something around that.

[00:08:53] But when you have a theory that doesn't really make any sense for Brad Holder or Patrick Westfall to come break into the Allen residence, steal his gun without leaving evidence and then return it,

[00:09:09] it just feels like obviously the defense is going to want to get as much suppressed as possible so I think it makes sense for them to be going this route.

[00:09:17] I don't see how this particularly necessarily aligns with their theory or their goals.

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[00:12:40] We refer to this particular interrogation as the second interrogation. What about the first interrogation?

[00:12:47] Well, we know now that that happened on October 13th, 2022 and Richard Allen was interviewed or interrogated if you prefer by Steve Mullen and Tony Liggett.

[00:12:59] Can you remind us who those gentlemen are?

[00:13:01] So Tony Liggett is the current sheriff of Carroll County, Indiana.

[00:13:05] He was a member of the sheriff's department, the sheriff's office rather for many years and he was one of the lead investigators in this case.

[00:13:14] Likewise, Steve Mullen has been involved in this case since day one.

[00:13:18] He was at the time of the murders, the Delphi police chief, and he subsequently joined the Carroll County prosecutor's office as an investigator.

[00:13:28] So they're two central figures to this case. They've been investigating it for a long time and they were the people who initially spoke with Richard Allen here.

[00:13:36] And there is no doubt that Richard Allen was properly barandized at the beginning of this particular interrogation.

[00:13:44] Despite this, it says in this document that Richard Allen didn't seem to realize that he was a suspect and that in fact he thought he was just there to try to help out.

[00:13:57] What do you make of that? I think for a lot of people that might be surprising. I think a lot of us associate being barandized with, you know, being an instant red flag that you are on the radar of police at the very least.

[00:14:08] But how do you sort of think about that in terms of maybe the general public, people who are not invested in true crimes, you know, knowledge about something like that?

[00:14:19] I think there could be a cognitive dissonance where suddenly you're in a situation where people suspect you of a serious crime. That can be hard to think in. I don't know.

[00:14:31] Yeah.

[00:14:32] That's certainly a possibility and it's also very possible that he did realize that he was a suspect but didn't want to acknowledge that or call him lawyers because he thought that would make him look bad.

[00:14:48] Or he thought he was confident in his ability to talk his way out of the situation.

[00:14:52] Yeah, and I have my lawyer hat on here. People need lawyers and they use lawyers for a reason and it is important if you're going into a situation where you are facing a situation like this to have an attorney with you to fully apprise you of your rights.

[00:15:14] Yeah, I think when you look at a situation like this, you don't know what's in his head. So it's hard to read too much into that. You could read it as ignorance. You could read it as arrogance. You know, it's just sometimes people just feel like they want to handle a situation themselves and that can be not the best move in many cases.

[00:15:34] Sometimes getting a lawyer makes things seem more real. You just want to push it away. I don't know. There's lots of different possibilities there.

[00:15:43] And over time, while the defense claims that Richard Allen did not immediately recognize that he was a suspect in the case, they do note that over the course of the interview as the questions heated up as things got more tense, it dawned on him that, oh, I am a suspect in this case that I've just been

[00:16:05] called in to talk about. And so Richard Allen then says something somewhat interesting. Do you want to read that, Kevin?

[00:16:13] I will. I don't want to be somebody's fall guy and we're going to try to make pieces of a puzzle fit somewhere they don't fit so we can close this thing. I'm not saying you guys please don't think I'm questioning your integrity. That's that's not what I'm saying.

[00:16:28] And then there's another quote in here a little bit further down from Richard Allen that I would also like to read.

[00:16:37] It's over. I was perfectly fine. I was cooperating. I was going to give you my phone and then, you know, when you started reading all these documents, that's at the here's my thing is I feel like you guys think I've done this.

[00:16:50] So I'm done. You do what you need to do. It's your job. I understand that, but you better fucking leave my reputation out of it. So you do what you need to do. And then like I said when you do find this guy, I'll expect the apology.

[00:17:04] We see him becoming heated cursing coming agitated concerned about his reputation.

[00:17:12] And basically indicating that he doesn't wish to cooperate any further.

[00:17:19] So it's heated a little bit of an alpha male sort of thing. Yeah, definitely. At least an attempt to be an alpha male sort of situation. Yeah.

[00:17:30] Oh, you'd be apologizing to me. And also my reputation is so incredible that needs defending. I think, yeah. So we're seeing kind of going from cooperative to kind of more adversarial.

[00:17:45] And again, this is all within the context of he has been mirandized.

[00:17:50] But he's basically indicating in so many words, I don't want to cooperate anymore.

[00:17:56] Yes. And that might be important later. So let's hang on to that.

[00:18:01] And I will read from the defense filing itself as well just to kind of underscore what we're talking about here.

[00:18:12] However, at the end of the interview that turned into an aggressive interrogation, Rick made it clear that he no longer wanted to talk to law enforcement.

[00:18:19] Within hours of the first interrogation, Ligget drafted in affidavit for search warrant.

[00:18:24] Judge Deener then signed the warrant to search Rick's home and vehicle on that day. Rick Allen's vehicle was also seized.

[00:18:30] Okay, that's going to be important later.

[00:18:32] So at the very least if there is searching your home and seizing your vehicle in the investigation of a double homicide case, things are pretty serious.

[00:18:45] Yeah, I would think that would probably dawn on most people at that time.

[00:18:48] And also it seems like it's already dawned on him because he stands up aggressively walks out or has this kind of confrontation where he's swearing and upset.

[00:18:57] And yeah, I would think that then when cops show up at your house, take your car and search through all your stuff, take all your knives, take your guns.

[00:19:06] Things are serious. Things are not going well.

[00:19:11] Um, yeah, that's that's important to note.

[00:19:15] I think we can move on to the next portion of the document that we think is significant and sort of read through that kind of gives a narrative of what happens next, which is important to understanding what happened.

[00:19:25] On October 13 2022, Kathy Allen, Rick's wife and Rick Allen asked the state police where when they could pick up their vehicle that had been seized.

[00:19:35] They were told they could pick it up in a couple of days.

[00:19:38] On October 17 2022, either Kathy or Rick contacted the state police to determine how and when they could get their vehicle back that had been seized as they were in need of that vehicle as Kathy and Rick were having difficulty sharing only one vehicle as they worked in two different places and needed two vehicles.

[00:19:55] After a few phone calls with the state police. Finally on October 26.

[00:19:59] Rick and Kathy were scheduled to arrive at the state police post in West Lafayette at 9am to pick up their vehicle.

[00:20:06] On October 26 2022, Rick Allen drove with Kathy to the West Lafayette police post to retrieve their vehicle that had been seized 13 days earlier by law enforcement.

[00:20:15] State police had told Rick and Kathy that upon their arrival, that upon arrival, their car would be released but never mentioned anything about additional questioning.

[00:20:23] When Rick and Kathy arrived at the station, Holman met them at the front and said he just had a few things he wanted to clear up before he released the vehicle.

[00:20:31] Holman requested Rick to follow him to the interrogation room without Kathy, Rick complied.

[00:20:37] So the first thing we should note is who's Holman.

[00:20:41] Holman is one of the investigators on this case who works with the Indiana State police at this time.

[00:20:48] He was Sergeant Jerry Holman, he's subsequently been promoted and is now Lieutenant Jerry Holman.

[00:20:54] Yes, and he is also much like Liggett and Mullen, an important figure in this case, one of the lead investigators who has been on it for many years.

[00:21:03] Pretty much the beginning, right?

[00:21:04] I believe so, yeah.

[00:21:05] Yeah, so there's, I mean this is one of those cases that is sort of a team effort between different agencies, Carroll County Sheriff's Office, Indiana State Police and the Carroll County Prosecutor's Office.

[00:21:18] So these different agencies, these different groups are working together on this and so he, this is going to be now the second interview with Richard Allen.

[00:21:30] And there is a problem because the very beginning of the interview is not captured on video.

[00:21:38] Yes, and this is the second instance of sort of video recording issues that have occurred in this case that we've, you know, heard about recently.

[00:21:47] So one was the loss of the Brad Holder interview in 2017, which occurred when the, when basically video recording software recorded over that and other interviews.

[00:22:01] And that was brought up with another suppression hearing.

[00:22:04] And in this instance, the entire interview was not lost but the first few minutes.

[00:22:10] And that's significant because it is the first few minutes of the interview where you would have expected a Miranda warning to be given.

[00:22:18] Yes.

[00:22:21] And that was not captured on video.

[00:22:25] So all we really know about the first few minutes of this interview comes from a report that Jerry Holman prepared a few days later.

[00:22:35] Can you read us the relevant portion of in Holman's report?

[00:22:40] I asked Mr. Allen if he remembered the other detectives reading him his Miranda rights and he said yes, I told him he was free to go at any time and that the door was unlocked.

[00:22:51] So it doesn't specify there and there's a lot of speculation in the filing, you know, who are these detectives who supposedly gave him his Miranda rights.

[00:23:00] I'm guessing that's likely a reference to Mullen and Liggett who we know Miranda is him fully at the beginning of the first interrogation.

[00:23:10] Yes, that makes sense.

[00:23:13] It's also when Holman saying I told him the door was unlocked.

[00:23:19] That's also a crucial point because a person needs to be fully Miranda eyes if they are in a custodial situation.

[00:23:29] In other words, if I arrest Anya for her rampant serial theft and handcuff her to a chair in a police station, I would need to mirandize her.

[00:23:40] But if Anya just comes into a police station to have a friendly conversation about serial and is aware that she can leave at any time and she's not under arrest, then it's not so crucial to mirandize her.

[00:23:54] So the question is, was he under police custody? Or was it just a voluntary if he did conversation?

[00:24:03] I think what you said there gets to the absolute crux of everything we're talking about today and we'll try to unpack some of that.

[00:24:11] But I think suffice to say, you know, there are different interpretations of what this means and.

[00:24:17] And it's also worth noting he had been fully mirandized earlier before the first interrogation and apparently was given some sort of a reminder of his Miranda rights before the second interrogation.

[00:24:30] But we because it wasn't captured on video, we have no idea how extensive that reminder was.

[00:24:38] Right.

[00:24:39] So he's reminded his house is searched, his car is seized and then there was a previous Miranda warning that was documented.

[00:24:47] So that's that's where that's his knowledge base going into this.

[00:24:51] So let me get to another portion of the filing from the defense just to kind of keep taking us through this story.

[00:25:00] Okay.

[00:25:01] Does that make sense?

[00:25:02] Yeah.

[00:25:03] Before we do, can I just make a quick comment?

[00:25:06] Yeah.

[00:25:07] I think this is one of the better filings from the defense.

[00:25:12] It is.

[00:25:13] And I think that the issue with Miranda, no matter how you ultimately fall on that issue, no matter whose interpretation you agree with.

[00:25:26] There's at least some meat on those bones.

[00:25:28] So I think the stuff with the Miranda issues is interesting.

[00:25:33] I think some of the other stuff in the filing, frankly is embarrassing.

[00:25:37] It's embarrassing.

[00:25:38] I was going to say it was a little bit less interesting.

[00:25:41] Yeah.

[00:25:42] Maybe that's that.

[00:25:43] I'll let you that's a very generous term for it.

[00:25:45] Again, it's like take something that's a real issue and just cover it in just stupid jargon that's just meant to incite your online base.

[00:25:54] Let's see.

[00:25:56] The following are true and accurate depictions of what occurred at Allen's October 26, 22 interrogation as shown on the videotape of said interrogation that was not missing or deleted but was actually provided to the defense.

[00:26:08] A. On video, Holman never read Rick Allen his Miranda rights nor mentioned them to Rick Allen.

[00:26:13] B. Rick Allen was placed in a tiny confined room without windows.

[00:26:17] C. Rick Allen was placed in a tiny confined room and Holman shut the door.

[00:26:22] D. Rick Allen was placed in a tiny confined room with Jerry Holman while the door was shut.

[00:26:28] So I guess the room was small and the door was shut.

[00:26:33] It's no secret it's come out in court.

[00:26:36] We've told you the story here on the podcast, but during the matter of the crime scene photos.

[00:26:44] We actually went to the Lafayette Indiana State Police post and were interviewed by Jerry Holman and I guess you'd say a small confined windowless room windowless room.

[00:26:58] Yeah, I don't even know how you talk about size of room.

[00:27:04] It wasn't like a luxury conference room, but certainly you and I have recorded episodes of this podcast in rooms at libraries which were a lot smaller and also windowless.

[00:27:15] And I'm not sure I understand how if there was a window in the room it would take some pressure off or something.

[00:27:22] Yeah, maybe like a nice beautiful vista of the parking lot.

[00:27:25] I mean, I don't know. It just seems like one of those things where you know that's the defense can't help themselves but just sort of inject a bunch of detail that they think is really powerful,

[00:27:37] but just kind of ends up sounding like should they have taken them out to dinner or like at St. Elmo's?

[00:27:43] I mean, I don't know. It just seems kind of like a meaningless thing that's supposed to portray this man as some poor persecuted figure in all of this.

[00:27:54] I think sticking with the law tends to be, I think a more powerful argument in general.

[00:28:00] And so this is going to be more of this kind of extraneous in my view detail as we go on and it's a shame because I do think it ends up for a lot of people overshadowing some of the points about Miranda which might actually be interesting to consider.

[00:28:14] So let's get onto the next section.

[00:28:18] E, a considerable size difference existed between Rick Allen and Jerry Holman.

[00:28:23] Okay, here's more just that's I don't know.

[00:28:27] I mean, Richard Allen is the person who is a short gentleman.

[00:28:31] He's a small man.

[00:28:33] Jerry Holman is a former football player.

[00:28:36] He's a tall person.

[00:28:38] Again, this just is one of those things like should they have just tried to find the shortest guy in the state police post?

[00:28:44] I mean, what?

[00:28:46] Yeah, I'm not sure what they're suggesting should have happened.

[00:28:50] Richard Allen, as I say, is a man of smaller stature.

[00:28:54] It may have been difficult to find someone who needs his stature.

[00:28:57] I'm not aware of any case law that would say police need to find someone with similar size to a person to conduct interviews.

[00:29:07] So I'm not really sure.

[00:29:09] I guess like I've gotten to the point where with some of these kind of again extraneous bits in these these filings, you know, you just who cares?

[00:29:17] You know, I mean, why even mention that if it's not relevant?

[00:29:22] Unless you're just again trying to paint a little story for your online followers to run with.

[00:29:27] I just think it makes them look ridiculous when they're kind of just throwing everything at a wall.

[00:29:37] This some of this feels like one of those details like maybe like maybe you write all this down and then you take it out and focus on the stuff that really matters.

[00:29:45] You know, just like you're writing everything down fine on the big whiteboard, but then just take it out.

[00:29:50] I mean, it's just f a power differential existed as Holman was a state trooper in his home court Lafayette police post while Rick Allen was a CVS worker from Delphi who had only driven to West Lafayette to pick up a vehicle he and his wife needed for transportation.

[00:30:06] So again, frankly, that's something I have trouble understanding what they're trying to suggest here.

[00:30:12] Are they saying it would have been more appropriate for Richard Allen to be interviewed by a CVS pharmacy technician?

[00:30:22] Is that is that what you understand?

[00:30:25] I think they're just like, oh, he was coerced.

[00:30:28] I think it's basically trying to sow seeds of coercion here.

[00:30:32] I guess I don't know the way the system works.

[00:30:36] Obviously there's always a power imbalance.

[00:30:39] Oh, they're not going to bring in the CVS, you know, asset protection officer to deal with this.

[00:30:45] And I guess this is why if we do something bad, are they going to bring in the podcast police?

[00:30:51] I mean, like what?

[00:30:53] That's a horrifying idea.

[00:30:55] Again, not to repeat myself.

[00:30:57] This is a good reason if anybody in the audience finds themselves and the sort of unfortunate situation get an attorney.

[00:31:05] Well, yeah, that's I mean, again, I find it odd that.

[00:31:09] He's his house.

[00:31:10] I mean, he's been interviewed once realizes in said interview that.

[00:31:14] Oh no, they're looking at me.

[00:31:16] It gets his house searched.

[00:31:18] He gets his vehicle seized and then he's still seemingly trying to talk his way out of this.

[00:31:24] I just find that very interesting just from a, you know, what are they thinking?

[00:31:30] I mean, what is he thinking?

[00:31:31] I don't know.

[00:31:32] I'm fascinated by that.

[00:31:34] But yeah, again, I just I some of some of the portions of this just I don't get.

[00:31:44] Gee, Rick Allen was never told he was being videotaped.

[00:31:49] So again, this is something I have trouble understanding because I don't think there's really an expectation of privacy when you're being interviewed by investigators at a police station.

[00:32:02] You know, certainly if I'm doing a confession with a priest, there's an expectation of privacy.

[00:32:09] And if the Catholic Church is videotaping my confessions and selling them online or whatever, I'd have reason to be upset.

[00:32:16] But I don't believe there's any sort of an expectation of privacy in this situation.

[00:32:22] I think when you basically take, I mean, I've said this before, but they're their process of doing these filings, even ones where there might be a good legal point in this.

[00:32:31] And the reason they're in there is to basically like have scary music playing in the background of everything and they need to know we was videotaped.

[00:32:39] And it's like, words lose their effect when you keep doing that.

[00:32:44] And when you attempt to make everything sound like the most sinister thing you've ever heard, it's actually better to save that for the points you're making that are on point and have some relevance to the situation.

[00:33:01] With that said, we're about to get into something a bit more interesting.

[00:33:06] H. When Jerry Holman would leave the room, he told Rick Allen to sit tight at the 925 and 4520 marks or hang on one second at the 1640 mark.

[00:33:17] In other words, Jerry Holman told Rick that he, Alan could not leave.

[00:33:22] I, when Jerry Holman would leave the door and tell Rick to sit tight, he Holman would shut the door.

[00:33:30] So this really again gets to the crux of the whole thing.

[00:33:34] Was when Jerry Holman told Rick Allen to sit tight or wait a minute, was this like a friendly suggestion?

[00:33:42] Like if I'm going to the other room to get a drink of water and I tell Anja, oh just hang on Anja, I'll be right back.

[00:33:49] Or is it a situation where Jerry Holman was giving an order and saying, Rick Allen, you do not have the right to leave or exit this room?

[00:33:58] Because you are in custody whether you know it or not.

[00:34:01] So it boils down to what does sit tight mean?

[00:34:04] What does hang on a minute mean in this context?

[00:34:08] The language to me sounds pretty casual.

[00:34:11] I mean, these are sort of common idioms that people use sit tight.

[00:34:15] What does that actually mean?

[00:34:16] You're sitting and you're all scrunched up.

[00:34:18] It means basically wait there.

[00:34:21] But I don't know.

[00:34:24] It seems pretty casual in terms of the diction use.

[00:34:27] Hang on one second.

[00:34:28] Obviously that cannot be interpreted literally because it's going to take him more than one second to leave and come back.

[00:34:35] The act of opening the door is going to take one second, right?

[00:34:39] And is he hanging on?

[00:34:40] Is he like hanging off the chair?

[00:34:42] I mean what, I don't know.

[00:34:43] I guess it really depends on how literal a judge wants to take that.

[00:34:46] And also the weight of that coming from a state actor, like a state police detective.

[00:34:54] Maybe that is more significant.

[00:34:56] I think that's debatable.

[00:34:59] I think it's debatable to interpret that as telling somebody they cannot leave.

[00:35:05] If you said sit tight or I'll throw you in prison then I think that becomes more clear.

[00:35:10] Or like sit tight, you know, I'm not done with you.

[00:35:14] You're not leaving yet.

[00:35:15] But when you're just, I mean could that just be interpreted as a request?

[00:35:19] I don't know.

[00:35:20] Yeah it's a gray area.

[00:35:23] My instinct is that judge goal is likely to interpret it as a request and is likely to say that it's non-custodial situation where a second full Miranda warning wasn't required.

[00:35:36] But I think there's enough meat on the bones here.

[00:35:38] It could go either way.

[00:35:40] And I think it's a valid issue of discussion.

[00:35:45] I think that this is again one of the, I mean when you cut away all the fat, there is considerable fat on this.

[00:35:53] But when you cut away the fat, I think this is one of the more respectable filings from the defense recently.

[00:36:00] So I'm happy to see that.

[00:36:01] I'm happy to see and we'll talk about this later that the case they cite is on point and certainly has resemblance.

[00:36:08] So I think from all that, from my perspective, great.

[00:36:11] You know, I mean I want to see that.

[00:36:13] I want to see that kind of relevance and that attention to the details of what they're specifically asking for.

[00:36:22] So in that case, great.

[00:36:24] In my view it's absolutely sounds like a request and he was mirandised earlier and he was there of his own volition to get his car back.

[00:36:34] I mean it doesn't sound like anybody strong armed him into that room.

[00:36:37] It sounds like he was, it sounds like he's been oddly interested in talking with folks throughout this process which is kind of on him.

[00:36:47] Like many things in this case, Richard Allen continues to do himself no favours and have done himself no favours in the past.

[00:37:07] Wait until you hear our episode about his sinister brain experiments.

[00:37:11] First he ruined Twitter, now he's coming for your actual brain.

[00:37:14] We've also got one about that time I stormed the runway at New York Fashion Week to protest coach's leather handbags.

[00:37:19] Yeah I heard they weren't happy about that.

[00:37:21] I couldn't tell you, they're not talking to me at the moment.

[00:37:23] And we're just getting started.

[00:37:25] In the coming weeks we're going to blow the lid off of everything from shady pet dealers to monkeys health hostage by coconut milk companies

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[00:37:37] And so much more.

[00:37:38] We'll hope you join us for this surprisingly fun journey full of strange characters, secretive companies and a whole world of stuff they really don't want you to know.

[00:37:46] Subscribe to Just So You Know wherever you get your podcasts and look for our new episodes every Thursday.

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[00:39:25] That's been just a consistent pattern.

[00:39:35] Jay.

[00:39:37] Jerry Holman lied to Rick Allen during the interrogation several times including the following.

[00:39:43] One at the 710 mark Jerry Holman told Rick Allen

[00:39:48] that we have experts that say that's you on the bridge and that's your voice on the video.

[00:39:53] There is no evidence that supports the statement Jerry Holman lied to Rick Allen.

[00:39:57] Two, at the 1525 mark Holman told Rick Allen that experts are saying that's you on the video

[00:40:03] and experts are saying you said down the hill.

[00:40:06] There is no evidence that supports the statement Jerry Holman lied to Rick Allen.

[00:40:10] Three, at the 1507 mark Holman tells Rick that witnesses saw a gun in his pocket.

[00:40:16] There is no evidence that anyone claims to have seen a gun in Rick's pocket.

[00:40:19] Holman lied to Rick Allen.

[00:40:21] Four, at the 3905 mark Holman states I'm not lying to you about anything.

[00:40:26] Everything I'm telling you is fact.

[00:40:28] The experts say that you said go down the hill.

[00:40:30] Holman was lying to Rick about many things and not everything Holman told Rick was a fact.

[00:40:35] Five, at the 4233 mark Holman said I'm not lying to you Rick that's unethical.

[00:40:40] Holman had been lying to Rick.

[00:40:47] They're talking about lies that they view that Holman told Rick through this process.

[00:40:57] So I guess to me, given my, given our history with this reading some of these filings and some of the accusations that have been made therein,

[00:41:11] I'm kind of, I'm in a place where I'm sort of wait and see with some of these claims.

[00:41:18] Well, also police are allowed to lie.

[00:41:21] Well, I mean that goes without saying yes police are allowed to lie in interviews that's not against the rules.

[00:41:26] You may think that's right.

[00:41:28] You may think that's wrong but they have that right.

[00:41:31] If you think it's wrong then I think, you know, we can, there's discussions to be had about systemic changes that can be made or when it's appropriate, when it's not appropriate, whatever.

[00:41:43] That's a wider discussion but I don't think you can fault people for doing something, you know, that's within their arsenal of tools in order to interview suspects in a crime.

[00:41:56] But again, that is to say that if, if in fact some of these were lies, I guess to me when experts is doing a lot of work here.

[00:42:11] I don't know if that's like people are saying like, oh that definitely looks and sounds like him.

[00:42:15] You know, it could be stretching the truth to say that they've conclusively identified you perhaps my understanding is with voice fingerprinting you need more words than like four words to read.

[00:42:26] I don't really like lock on someone so I don't know.

[00:42:29] That's my understanding.

[00:42:30] Yeah, so I mean like but again, a lot of people have said that video recordings of his voice posted on social media do sound very similar to the man saying down the hill.

[00:42:40] So it just seems like one of those things like I'm not even prepared to necessarily say oh these are all absolute lies without really understanding maybe some of the background of it.

[00:42:55] Yeah, why bring up this is this more for the social media media side of things of like don't believe law enforcement in this case they're all liars.

[00:43:05] Is that what this is for because it definitely doesn't have really anything to do with the I mean my understanding is that it's either a Miranda violation or it isn't whether or not he's doing this.

[00:43:16] So I put this more in the same bucket as the claims that oh Richard Allen wasn't interviewed by CVS employee.

[00:43:24] Who was exact same size and age and yeah I had the same life experiences.

[00:43:30] So to me it's a lot less interesting frankly than some of the Miranda stuff.

[00:43:34] This to me just seems like more like the press release element of what they do the red meat for you know sewing unhappiness with other figures in the case that's what it strikes me as.

[00:43:50] Okay Jerry Holman told Rick Allen in what was supposed to be an exploratory interview the prosecutor and the other investigators they want to see you lock you up and throw away the key.

[00:44:00] L Jerry Holman barked at Rick Allen and what was supposed to be an exploratory interview if you don't tell me you're going down for this.

[00:44:08] Jerry Holman told Rick Allen and what was supposed to be an exploratory interview.

[00:44:12] Do you realize the death penalty is on the table for this and at various times Jerry Holman yelled at Rick Allen including using profanity lace language while accusing Rick Allen of the murders.

[00:44:22] Oh, Rick Allen asked Holman to stop the interview Rick said I'm done early in the interrogation at the 1205 mark but Holman continued his interrogation.

[00:44:31] P the state police never turned over the vehicle to Kathy Allen after Rick was arrested returning the vehicle to Rick and Kathy was merely a subterfuge get Rick to the police post be interrogated.

[00:44:45] So I guess sometimes when police are interviewing suspects, they might curse.

[00:44:52] I'm not sure if that's something that really surprises many people.

[00:45:00] Also, I mean just looking at some of what Rick Allen was saying at least in the first interview at this point.

[00:45:07] He was being combative and cursing so they don't really talk about who turned up the temperature.

[00:45:13] Did Holman start just suddenly out of the blue cursing wildly?

[00:45:17] Was it in response to some provocation from Richard Allen?

[00:45:21] Yeah, matching the temperature. I mean that can be a way of interviewing someone to be kind of on the same wavelength as them.

[00:45:28] I mean if you start cursing at me and I'm interviewing you and I'm just like prim improper sipping my Earl Grey tea and saying oh by heavens then that might not be a very effective way of communicating with you at that point.

[00:45:42] I don't know it just seems kind of more of the same of slapping around.

[00:45:47] What about the whole thing I'm done as sort of asking him to stop the interview?

[00:45:57] I'd really love to see more of a context for that because sometimes I'm done is a colloquial phrase that doesn't really mean that much.

[00:46:06] It means I'm exasperated.

[00:46:08] Yes.

[00:46:09] And other times it means something specific so it's really hard.

[00:46:12] Yeah I'm finished talking to you go away yeah so that's fair.

[00:46:16] And then in terms of one thing that struck me as interesting is in K there's a lot of dots between the prosecutor and the other investigators dot dot dot they want to see you dot dot dot lock you up and throw away the key.

[00:46:29] So I'd be very curious what's in between the dots there?

[00:46:33] Is there more of that phrase?

[00:46:36] Is he pausing for effect?

[00:46:38] I don't know.

[00:46:41] They spelled Kathy Allen's name wrong here but yeah I guess what is the significance of an exploratory interview versus an accusatory interview?

[00:46:53] An exploratory is more like a casual conversation as opposed to interrogation.

[00:46:59] So that can have Miranda implications as we'll talk about and so that you know something that defines Miranda when Miranda is necessary versus when it's not.

[00:47:11] We've been talking a lot about Miranda without really explaining it.

[00:47:15] Is this a good time to like just get into the nitty gritty of what Miranda is?

[00:47:20] Certainly.

[00:47:21] Miranda v Arizona was a 1966 Supreme Court of the United States case a decision that effectively established that police are required to advise suspects in their custody of their rights specifically against self-incrimination.

[00:47:38] And failing if the police failed to do this then that can render statements inadmissible in court.

[00:47:45] So if I arrest Kevin, the shoe's on the other foot now Kevin, so if I arrest you and I fail to Mirandize you and then you tell me that you've done the crime that I'm accusing you of then that can be thrown out because I didn't properly Mirandize you.

[00:48:00] So it's very important for Miranda warnings to be issued for Miranda rights to be explained to suspects.

[00:48:07] But there are some specific sort of rules where Miranda should apply and that means that there can be a bit of a gray area with some of this.

[00:48:22] And so while it's very common in police shows for you know we always hear the Miranda warnings and sort of like a dragnet or a lawn or something like that.

[00:48:30] In some instances, it doesn't necessarily apply and so it's not necessarily given.

[00:48:37] So let's talk about that.

[00:48:39] So my understanding is that there are sort of six rules around you know where Miranda applies and there has to be some kind of statement from a suspect.

[00:48:51] So it can't you know if they just naturally invoke their right to silence without being Mirandize then there's not really any foul there obviously.

[00:49:01] It has to be an actual statement.

[00:49:03] So Miranda does not apply to something like if I bring in a suspect to the police station or if I'm tailing someone or have coffee with them and I use that to collect a DNA sample, they don't need to be Mirandized.

[00:49:20] It's only for them testifying their testimonials, their statements.

[00:49:26] Here's the crucial one for this case.

[00:49:29] The suspect must be in police custody.

[00:49:32] What does custody mean?

[00:49:34] Well that can mean under arrest or essentially like basically kind of the gray areas like almost as good as formal arrest.

[00:49:47] So you can be restrained physically.

[00:49:50] You can be restrained when the police officer announces their intent to arrest you.

[00:49:56] But one thing that is not necessarily covered by this is somebody who comes into a police station voluntarily.

[00:50:04] They're not in custody.

[00:50:08] So Richard Island came into this police station voluntarily and an attempt to pick up a vehicle.

[00:50:15] There's an interesting Indiana Supreme Court case that could be relevant here that we're going to talk about that does throw that into some dispute.

[00:50:24] But I think what this all comes down to is what is the definition of custody was Richard Allen in police custody when he made this statement?

[00:50:33] That's what it's all going to come out there.

[00:50:35] That's what it all boils down to and a lot of this other stuff is window dressing.

[00:50:38] Yeah, and I'll just go over the other rules just so people know.

[00:50:41] So the statement must be garnered through some sort of interrogation.

[00:50:44] So I think that means that basically if I come into a police station and voluntarily blurred out something like maybe maybe a police officer say, hey, Anja, how was your day?

[00:50:52] I killed a lot of people.

[00:50:53] You know, they weren't interrogating me.

[00:50:55] They weren't trying to get me to say anything about that.

[00:50:57] They weren't trying to direct the conversation.

[00:50:59] It was just me unprompted stating that.

[00:51:02] So that's not an issue.

[00:51:04] The interview must be done by state actors.

[00:51:07] So actually, if the CVS detectives came in, then they wouldn't have, you know, that wouldn't they're not stayed out.

[00:51:15] I guess they would have been acting on behalf of the state.

[00:51:17] So they would have been state actors.

[00:51:18] But obviously Jerry Holman is state actor.

[00:51:21] He's a detective with the Indiana State Police and the evidence must apply to some sort of criminal proceeding.

[00:51:29] So as far as I can tell, all of these boxes are checked off except for possibly the third, which again gets into the issue of custody.

[00:51:38] I personally when I look at this, I don't believe that he was in custody, but I can understand why the defense is arguing that.

[00:51:45] And I think it makes sense to.

[00:51:47] But I when I look at this, it looks like a man who voluntarily came in and was allowed to leave it anytime.

[00:51:53] And therefore.

[00:51:57] Miranda doesn't apply.

[00:52:23] To let sleeping dogs lie.

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[00:52:58] Find love at first drive and start shopping now at carmax.com.

[00:53:03] Carmax, the way car buying should be.

[00:53:23] We've also got one about that time I stormed the runway at New York Fashion Week to protest coaches leather handbags.

[00:53:29] Yeah, I heard they weren't happy about that.

[00:53:31] I couldn't tell you they're not talking to me at the moment.

[00:53:33] And we're just getting started in the coming weeks.

[00:53:35] We're going to blow the lid off of everything from shady pet dealers to monkeys health hostage by coconut milk companies to the astonishing secret behind the no animals were harmed message you see at the end of movies and so much more.

[00:53:48] We'll hope you join us for the surprisingly fun journey full of strange characters, secretive companies and a whole world of stuff they really don't want you to know.

[00:53:56] Subscribe to Just So You Know wherever you get your podcasts and look for our new episodes every Thursday.

[00:54:01] Just So You Know is a Pita production.

[00:54:06] You mentioned that they cite a case.

[00:54:10] It's actually a case handled by Andrew Baldwin's law firm.

[00:54:15] It's the case.

[00:54:16] I believe it was called ER in the document.

[00:54:20] It refers to a man named Ernesto Ruez who was accused of child molestation.

[00:54:26] And he basically was asked to come into a police station to talk about the accusations.

[00:54:37] So he drives himself to the police station.

[00:54:41] He's he's in different times is put into a small room and is told to you know hang tight or whatever.

[00:54:49] And the courts ultimately found that he was in custody at that time, even though he was not under arrest.

[00:54:59] So that is there's certainly some similar things there but it's also definitely it's also different in that in that case it doesn't appear.

[00:55:09] Is if Ernesto Ruez had ever been Mirandized.

[00:55:14] This was probably or perhaps his first interrogation when he just shows up at their request and Richard Allen of course had been Mirandized earlier.

[00:55:25] And then also at the beginning of the second interrogation he had been reminded of his marital rights.

[00:55:31] So there's some similarities but also some differences.

[00:55:34] Okay, I mean when when you read their filing it sounds like exactly the same.

[00:55:38] Obviously there's some wrinkles to that.

[00:55:41] To me those sound like pretty significant differences but I think it's relevant to cite this and frankly if you're the defense you have to try.

[00:55:51] So I think you know this is again that's why we say even though some of the window dressing is just garish.

[00:55:59] This is probably one of their better filings recently because it's like some thought was put into the similarities here.

[00:56:08] And then we have some highlights from the transcript of the interview.

[00:56:13] Yeah, so I was thinking because we you and I enjoy going back and forth in the transcript would maybe we can read the different parts to kind of give everyone a sample of just sort of the aspects of this interview that the defense decided to present.

[00:56:29] And then we have a pull out to show that it was a combative situation.

[00:56:34] I will be reading the part of Jerry Holman and Kevin will be Richard Allen.

[00:56:40] You're going to drag your fucking wife and your daughter through this because you're too fucking bullheaded to get out in front of this and admit you made a mistake.

[00:56:48] And whatever the fuck happened out there will never fucking know because you're too big of a fucking.

[00:56:54] The evidence clearly indicates you were involved in this.

[00:56:57] No.

[00:56:58] Yes, it doesn't.

[00:56:59] I'm telling you that there is no way that a bullet from my gun was used in these murders.

[00:57:04] And I'm telling you that we had this fucking round on February 14th 2017 and it's been secured in a fucking laboratory and we've tested other guns.

[00:57:14] You could have taken it from somewhere else then because it's not possible.

[00:57:18] I did not take it from somewhere else.

[00:57:20] It was logged in.

[00:57:21] It was taken.

[00:57:22] It was photographed.

[00:57:23] You think we fucking took a round and threw it down by the dead girl's foot?

[00:57:26] This ain't fucking TV.

[00:57:28] This is realistic.

[00:57:29] I'm telling you, I can't explain something that.

[00:57:32] And I'm telling you that fucking analysts explain it.

[00:57:35] You can't get past this.

[00:57:37] I'm not on video.

[00:57:39] Neither am I.

[00:57:40] Four or five witnesses didn't see me out there.

[00:57:42] Me either.

[00:57:43] My round out of my gun wasn't six inches away from a dead girl.

[00:57:47] Mine neither.

[00:57:49] I don't think you're a bad person.

[00:57:51] What kind of good person kills two people?

[00:57:55] Let's step away.

[00:57:56] Let's unpack that for a second.

[00:57:59] I don't know why they picked this particular segment without context because when you read it without context.

[00:58:10] It sounds bad.

[00:58:12] It's plausible that he is saying, oh, you don't think I'm a bad person, but I must be because what kind of a good person would kill two people.

[00:58:21] So it's possible that could be a confession, but it's also possible with context that maybe right before Holman says, I don't think you're a bad person.

[00:58:30] He had just accused him of committing the crime.

[00:58:33] So this was an odd choice to in.

[00:58:37] Yeah, he could.

[00:58:39] He could be saying just like hypothetically what kind of good person kills two people.

[00:58:44] You know, like I mean, like what kind of good person would commit a double homicide?

[00:58:48] If you think I did that, you can't think I'm a good person.

[00:58:50] Yeah.

[00:58:51] But it sounds bad.

[00:58:54] It was an odd choice to include that without more context.

[00:58:58] Also, it doesn't sound combative because basically Holman saying, I don't think you're bad.

[00:59:03] I mean, I don't know if Holman really believes that if he thinks that Alan is the murderer.

[00:59:08] But it's not like him.

[00:59:10] You know, it sounds like more of a conciliatory tone at this point.

[00:59:14] Yeah, it's supposed to be this big comes that of intimidating thing with big bad Jerry Holman and Jerry big bad Jerry Holman and saying, hey, I don't think you're a bad guy.

[00:59:24] So bizarre to include this.

[00:59:26] I don't know why.

[00:59:27] Honestly, again, I think all the cursing and stuff, it just doesn't matter.

[00:59:31] It just it doesn't matter.

[00:59:33] And it's kind of if you're going to include all this, maybe don't pick the one that sounds terrible.

[00:59:39] Let's get back to it.

[00:59:42] You're going to pay for what you've done to my wife.

[00:59:44] You want to fuck with me?

[00:59:45] Fuck with me.

[00:59:46] But you leave my wife out of this.

[00:59:48] Fuck leave me out of this.

[00:59:50] No, you're involved in this.

[00:59:52] Your fucking round is there.

[00:59:53] No, it is not.

[00:59:57] He's not explaining or giving an explanation for why the round might be there.

[01:00:02] He's just saying it's impossible that it could be there, sort of denying any sort of.

[01:00:09] Reality around it.

[01:00:11] I think that's interesting.

[01:00:12] I think some people might go for them more of like, well, listen, my buddy might have borrowed it or hey, I might have been shooting in the woods a couple months ago.

[01:00:18] Maybe he got there then.

[01:00:19] So he's not giving alternate explanations.

[01:00:22] He's just saying no, no, no, no, no, basically.

[01:00:25] So, I mean, that's just interesting to me.

[01:00:29] And there's one last little bit from Jerry Holman.

[01:00:33] You're guilty of something.

[01:00:35] You're guilty and I know it and I'm going to fucking prove it.

[01:00:39] As we said, I think this was probably one of the better filings from the defense recently because it got to some Miranda issues that seemed relevant.

[01:00:47] And in case that Andy Baldwin was previously involved in that seemed somewhat relevant.

[01:00:53] Do you think that personally, Kevin, that it rises to the level of warranting a suppression or that you would expect a suppression?

[01:01:02] I don't think Judge Gull is going to find this to be a custodial situation.

[01:01:11] But I recognize I could be wrong and also it feels like there is potentially a bit of a gray area here.

[01:01:18] I concur about the gray area.

[01:01:20] I don't believe that this was a custodial situation.

[01:01:22] And so I don't believe that she's going to rule in their favor, but I think it was smart for them to go for this.

[01:01:27] And I could be wrong.

[01:01:29] As Kevin said, you get into Miranda issues once we start defining custodial.

[01:01:35] What does that mean?

[01:01:36] Seems like the Indiana Supreme Court has given some leeway around what they define as custodial as indicated by that ER case.

[01:01:44] So it's possible that the defense could get some relief on this and that it could go their way.

[01:01:51] I just I tend to think that the facts are different enough from ER that even though superficially it sounds similar,

[01:02:00] that the context renders it somewhat, you know, maybe not similar enough to really warrant anything here.

[01:02:09] But again, could be wrong.

[01:02:11] And I mean, I just think it's unfortunate though where you do have the window dressing of just kind of like, you know, this guy was too tall and he was, you know, cursing is just it's just unfortunate.

[01:02:26] It just kind of continues that pattern of mixing in good points with points that are just just not good and just not not meaningful in the context of anything and just seem to be more of cobbled together to, you know,

[01:02:46] have this speak more to the court of public opinion than anything else. And I just don't really see how effective that is at this point because I think by doing this in many ways they've hurt their own credibility so it becomes somewhat difficult when they are making claims to just say, oh yes, this must be true.

[01:03:04] Before we wrap up, they also filed both sides indicated that the other side know about other witnesses that might be called.

[01:03:12] Yeah, supplemental witnesses and exhibits. So I mean, I've said that it's not going to happen in May. I've been definitely on the on the May doubting train. But as we get closer, it's April 16th. As we get closer, I think it is possible that it could happen in May.

[01:03:29] And I hope it does so that, you know, this doesn't drag on. But the more time we go without them calling for a continuance, the more hopeful I get about May. So at this point, I the may skeptic am daring to dream of a May trial.

[01:03:48] So that's where I am just to give everyone a heads up. And I'm surprised that I'm here because I really I felt so skeptical of it.

[01:03:55] It would be great if we got this adjudicated in May, no matter which side of things you fall on. It's good to get answers. It's good to have a verdict.

[01:04:07] Yes. Also watch them file it for a continuance while I'm editing this episode. Now but I mean, we're getting we're getting close were weeks away.

[01:04:17] So thank you so much for listening.

[01:04:19] Thank you.

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