The Delphi Murders: New Trial Date

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[00:02:44] So today in the Delphi case, there was a court hearing in Fort Wayne that unfortunately,

[00:03:07] due to some circumstances, Kevin and I were not able to attend. The good news is that some people

[00:03:14] were able to attend and those are some awesome case observers who've been doing this for a long

[00:03:18] time. They go, they know everything about the case, and they take excellent notes. And two of

[00:03:24] those people, Angie and Sarah, were generous enough to share their notes with us and let us

[00:03:31] know what they saw, what their impressions were, and what happened today. So today, they're going

[00:03:37] to fill us in, talk us through their notes, talk us through what happened, and we're all going to

[00:03:42] sort of analyze together what this May 7th hearing meant and what will be surely some pretty big

[00:03:49] ramifications for the Delphi case. My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist. And I'm Kevin Greenlee.

[00:03:55] I'm an attorney. And this is The Murder Sheet. We're a true crime podcast focused on original

[00:04:01] reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases. We're The Murder Sheet. And this is the

[00:04:08] Delphi Murders, new trial date. So Sarah and Angie, thank you both so much for coming today, for helping

[00:05:00] us out. Just we really appreciate it and just want to start off by saying both of you are people who

[00:05:06] have been covering this case for a long time. You've been interested in it. You've been going,

[00:05:10] taking notes, and you're both people whose notes, whenever we'd see them, we were like, these are

[00:05:15] really good. So we're just so enthusiastic and thrilled to have you both here today. So just

[00:05:20] wanted to start off by saying thank you. You're welcome. You're welcome, guys. Thank you.

[00:05:27] I guess to start off with, let's just start at the beginning. And we'll just kind of give you

[00:05:31] both an opportunity to respond. But what's sort of the first thing that happened in this May 7th

[00:05:36] hearing? Well, you know how usually when we got in line and we went up to the courtroom,

[00:05:42] the courtroom doors were closed as before. And we waited for somebody to open them.

[00:05:47] Well, they were unlocked and nobody told anybody. So we all gathered in the hallway until one of the

[00:05:54] gentlemen come and let us in and notified us that the doors have always been unlocked. So

[00:06:00] anyway, we went in. The usual people were there. The families from Abby and Libby, Richard's

[00:06:10] mother, cat, mother and wife was there. And then the first attorney then came in would have been

[00:06:22] the defense team. And that consisted of Robbie Baldwin, and I'm going to call her Jennifer A,

[00:06:31] because of her last name. And there's a little bit of back and forth in the court proceedings

[00:06:36] that will cover that for you. And then the prosecution team, which was Nick McClellan,

[00:06:42] Stacy Diner, Binger and Mr. Litchfield. Also with him was Holman, Lieutenant Holman,

[00:06:50] Detective Vito, Steve Mullins, who is the investigator, you know, for the prosecution,

[00:06:57] and ISP support staff. Sheriff, Sheriff Wessonby was the person in charge of overseeing for Carroll

[00:07:11] County. As you know, Carroll County and Allen County both have to be in the courtroom.

[00:07:15] That this is a Carroll County case. And there was one special guest today that I didn't know

[00:07:22] who it was. It was the Attorney General was there. Todd Rakita was there? Yes. And we found out a

[00:07:29] little while later. Well, she didn't know I had, but we found out no, I mean, I did. Yeah,

[00:07:35] I did. Because he represents the state of Indiana and their employees. And as you know, there is a

[00:07:41] section on their employment records and stuff for the employees at Westfield and at Wabash.

[00:07:49] So Rakita didn't talk, but he was present? Right. He was present. And when trials,

[00:07:56] when the hearing was called to order, we found out why. But I just wanted to say,

[00:08:03] just to add to what Sarah said, Judge Gull came in around 826. And she had,

[00:08:11] she was very calm and everything was, she had a focused discussion with the staff and

[00:08:17] Miss Jennifer Ogier from the defense was also speaking to them at that time,

[00:08:22] which ended up becoming a little bit relevant later when the hearing started. But, and when

[00:08:30] Baldwin come in, so Rosie and Ogier entered and sat up, set up everything, sat down,

[00:08:38] got ready to work on their laptops. But Baldwin come in just a little bit later,

[00:08:44] like a couple minutes later and with support staff and they had these trolley carts that they brought

[00:08:52] a whole bunch of stuff in, like two, two of their carts. Like what you would see at a concert when

[00:08:58] Yeah, with files and stuff. So they were set up for a full day today. Yeah. And I found that

[00:09:06] interesting after what ended up transpiring. Right? Because as we'll get to this was not a

[00:09:13] full day. And obviously they were going to do my thought was because they kind of opened.

[00:09:20] I thought that they were going to, I think they thought they were going to do the

[00:09:25] the motion and the mean for I think that's what Mr. Rossi thought was going to fire.

[00:09:34] And that's not what that's not what did happen.

[00:09:42] Was very timely. Yeah. All the court to order call the case. They called the case number.

[00:09:50] And at that point, that's when Rossi asked Judge golf, exactly what we're going to do today.

[00:09:58] Are we going to have the scheduling hearing? Asking for to change the length of time for the

[00:10:05] trial. And also the order for women. And then she pulled the record and read back to him his

[00:10:18] or his request for this pre trial here. So obviously, as she said, we're going to hear

[00:10:24] them both. This was at the initial part of it. And intended on hearing both motions today. But

[00:10:30] that's not as we know, not what happened. Don't know what Andy take it from here.

[00:10:38] Well, the issue seemed to be about the limited appearance that had been filing a file for Miss

[00:10:47] and they had a sidebar and they approached the bench on that like almost immediately.

[00:10:52] As soon as Judge go came in and called the order. Alan had come in with three Allen County

[00:11:00] deputies not IDOC, escorting him. And he I guess you've seen the new booking photo that was released

[00:11:09] last night. And that Judge go had some things to say about a little while later. But their first

[00:11:16] they basically approached the bench in a sidebar right away regarding Miss OJ and she said,

[00:11:23] Judge golf said, I don't know her name. She said she greeted Baldwin and Rosie.

[00:11:29] And then she said, I'm sorry, I don't I don't know your name. I don't know you. Yeah.

[00:11:35] But and then the so the limited appearance discussion was almost immediate. And Rosie

[00:11:42] asked to approach because it might have an impact on what she could present today. So they wanted to

[00:11:50] sort that out and not cross any boundaries. Everybody was very calm, focused. Just there

[00:12:00] was no inclination really, that it was going to end as quickly as it did. There really wasn't.

[00:12:07] It was very wasn't it? Wouldn't you think? I think to the point that well with the attorney.

[00:12:13] Yeah, yeah. And you even though they're, they were at the sidebar having the discussion.

[00:12:21] She did question rather they hurt her. She has a limited appearance for digital type.

[00:12:27] She's a deposition for the FBI. Right. So that's Jennifer OJ. She's she's definitely

[00:12:33] she's a limited appearance attorney in this. And I want to ask you both just before we get on with

[00:12:38] the legal elements, how did Richard Allen look? I know we've all seen this new booking photo,

[00:12:44] but for folks who may not have seen it, what were your impressions about him? Was he

[00:12:48] looking healthy? Did he look different? What were your thoughts? He seemed a little groggy at first

[00:12:54] when he got there. But as things started to progress, he did look like he's probably put

[00:13:00] on another 15 pounds. He has more of a full beard now. And it was very, he was very unkempt.

[00:13:09] And I thought when I looked up at him, I thought he looked like a hunchback, like all hunched over

[00:13:14] like he was very, but when he come in here at 858 two minutes before Judge Gold called order,

[00:13:22] he came in and looked for Kathy and Janice and his mother and wife. And Baldwin immediately

[00:13:29] started talking to him for quite some time, actually. And then Rosie got up and came over

[00:13:35] and and squatted down beside him and had a discussion with him as well. And this all

[00:13:39] just basically happened within the few minutes before she called the order.

[00:13:44] Understood. So we had that kind of interaction with his family and then his his lawyers. So

[00:13:48] that's definitely a pattern we've seen in some of these hearings.

[00:13:52] Yeah. And Max, the intern from the defense and another intern were seated in the front row

[00:13:59] with Kathy and Janice there. And so they sat in their kind of their usual spot.

[00:14:04] Was the courtroom a full house today?

[00:14:08] Not by any means. No, no, no.

[00:14:11] Wow. OK.

[00:14:12] And the entire defense side of the seating of Allen County was full. And then we had

[00:14:20] no because I looked back because I was going to do a count and then I noticed that it was awful.

[00:14:25] And then on on the prosecution and family side, we had one row of family and then two rows of

[00:14:36] there was plenty of plenty of extra seats. It was by no means full. There was it was not

[00:14:41] the same scenario as the March 18th contempt hearing.

[00:14:46] So what was the next thing that happened in terms of the lawyers and the judge?

[00:14:50] So Robbie did announce that he had put in the paperwork to Jennifer A., as I referred to her,

[00:15:01] will now become part of the defense team as a whole. She won't have a limited appearance. And

[00:15:09] Judge Bill said she hadn't seen the paperwork on that. But when she does,

[00:15:13] she'll take a look at it and sign off.

[00:15:17] Oh, wow. So he's getting a new attorney, like an additional attorney, I should say,

[00:15:22] to fully represent him through this.

[00:15:25] Right. Well, and but we don't know if that's going to be a limited amount of hours that

[00:15:29] she's going to allow or if she can allow him unlimited amount of time.

[00:15:34] Understood.

[00:15:36] She could be able to cover more than just the FBI interrogation.

[00:15:39] Not too sure, because they did file another appearance for her that said criminal.

[00:15:45] But yeah, that would be for she did not approve it.

[00:15:48] So there was a she had not seen it yet.

[00:15:50] So there's some there's some question about what will happen going forward with that.

[00:15:54] But it sounds it sounds like they're kind of slotting Miss OJ in for more.

[00:15:59] Yes. And actually, there's some sort of a disconnect with this IDOC issue with the

[00:16:07] yes, they talked about that was how it all come up about the deputy.

[00:16:13] Sorry, the Attorney General rather like right away, there was something that was entered and

[00:16:19] dated on May 2nd and put through the CCS, which I assume is the system court never entered it as

[00:16:30] an actual order of court.

[00:16:32] So there's something there's a stipulation to it also that Mr. Harvey will see the records prior.

[00:16:39] But then after that, they will be under seal.

[00:16:43] So these are employees of the IDOC, which Rakita, you know, he is our state's attorney.

[00:16:51] So he is responsible for building foot since we don't have the other two that

[00:16:55] represent the employees of the getting their appearances dropped off.

[00:17:00] And so once he receives those, he wants to review those and then he has to put them under seal.

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[00:19:54] What happened next after some of this IDOC and Jennifer Oje matters were sort of dealt

[00:20:01] with?

[00:20:03] So we went into the time that we were taught right off the bat, they were

[00:20:08] Rosie started discussing about the times and Rosie stated that each witness list currently

[00:20:15] has over 100 on it, with probably 50% of them duplicated.

[00:20:21] But not everyone's going to be called.

[00:20:25] So help me out here, Sarah, I'm reading my notes.

[00:20:32] He tried to explain that he felt like with only two and a half weeks, a lot of time,

[00:20:38] that it would be not enough time for the defense to put on what they had planned.

[00:20:45] And that by that the judge was trying to restrain the time and it would be against the end of

[00:20:52] the trial.

[00:20:55] That he said, there's not enough time for him to properly defend for them to probably

[00:21:02] defend Richard Allen in court.

[00:21:07] And he brought up that the prosecution brought up the fact that they had indeed whittled

[00:21:15] their witness list down to 45 witnesses.

[00:21:19] And the state was definitely satisfied with the time that is being allowed and that they

[00:21:24] would be done with their case by the 25th if the dates stayed as they are.

[00:21:30] Wow, so the defense is or rather the prosecution is saying we're ready to go.

[00:21:35] Oh, they streamlined Nick made it very clear.

[00:21:38] They've streamlined everything.

[00:21:41] They've done every he said we've done everything we can.

[00:21:46] The state doesn't have any objections.

[00:21:49] They have six to 12 chain of custody witnesses as an example out of that 40 to 45 and they

[00:21:56] think they're ready to go.

[00:21:57] They're ready to go and Rosie stated quite a few times that they require 15 business

[00:22:05] days to import and he wants he wanted to know how they're going to divvy up the time like

[00:22:13] if the state takes rate till if we were going with the old court date if they took rate

[00:22:18] till the 26th does that mean we get a couple of days to do our case and then we're going

[00:22:22] to end up having to retry this whole thing again.

[00:22:25] So Rosie was trying to look for a solution a practical solution.

[00:22:32] And it so it was all quite civil.

[00:22:37] So Judge Gull asked well what is you know what is your request then Mr.

[00:22:43] Rosie the first time I'm hearing that the time isn't adequate was April 30th.

[00:22:49] And then so then we go into once he brings up that he needs at least two weeks or 15

[00:22:59] days to present and that the jury the questionnaires had already went out and in the jury package

[00:23:08] it included the dates and that she can't he suggested bringing in the jury and asking

[00:23:16] at that time if they wouldn't mind to add on the extra week and she said she could not

[00:23:23] do that under jury rule for that that deals with the jury selection process because the

[00:23:31] length of time is definitely on the jury selection.

[00:23:35] Those are things that she cannot change and there's nothing she could do about it.

[00:23:40] So I think at this point everybody everybody knew where we were headed.

[00:23:46] It was still quite civil.

[00:23:50] Actually it shouldn't be civil.

[00:23:53] Rosie wasn't heated yet.

[00:23:54] His voice kept showing up higher.

[00:23:58] He was getting a little bit louder whenever he was asked a question as far as from Judge

[00:24:05] Gull what do you suggest what do you what do you think we do and there was her hands were

[00:24:13] tied as far as what she was able to do on her end and so from that point we go into

[00:24:22] another point where I'll let Angie discuss at what point Rosie asked about having a five

[00:24:32] minute break to go and research for about five minutes so he can have a discussion with

[00:24:40] his client.

[00:24:44] Oh well we skipped a little bit there sir so I know I'm looking well okay well he

[00:24:53] Rosie got very animated and was pointing down and very loud directly at Richard Allen and

[00:25:01] saying that it's his right to have an adequate defense and Allen was very engaged when he was

[00:25:11] doing that and then Judge Gull talked about six-way phone calls and the emails and that's

[00:25:20] not how I do business and I don't know what you want me to do when I only found out about

[00:25:27] this objection about the timeline April 30th. I should say Rosie did originally back at the June

[00:25:34] 15th hearing last year when Judge Gull set the trial date she said it for two weeks to start

[00:25:43] in January 2024 and Rosie made an objection at that time and he did reference that today

[00:25:51] at the hearing he said I brought it up myself although he said he

[00:25:54] that was in October the first part of October when he said that was he brought his concerns up to her

[00:26:00] again. He talked about I believe he talked about both hearings today but originally she turned

[00:26:07] around Judge Gull added an extra week at the June 15th hearing and made it three like this

[00:26:12] was during the hearing made it three weeks and then and then yeah the stuff happened in October

[00:26:18] so Rosie requested the five-minute recess and she asked why and he said I would like to have

[00:26:27] a meeting with my staff and talk to talk to Allen and Nick didn't have any objections

[00:26:34] so they took a they took a recess and then what happened there?

[00:26:42] Well they come out and at that point he comes back in they go back on the record

[00:26:54] at that point they're talking that's when Judge Gull went through the about four or five different

[00:27:00] cases well first Judge Gull he was Mr. Rozzi was complaining that he did not have a private

[00:27:09] conversation with his client due to the fact that Allen County deputies had to stand at the door

[00:27:16] and keep their eyes on Mr. Allen first he complained about that

[00:27:22] and he brought up another subject and it had to do with

[00:27:29] the judge ending the trial on the 31st and he's never been told a time limit like that as far

[00:27:37] as when a jury trial would end and so then she fires back at him about I'm not communicate

[00:27:48] we can't communicate through email because I don't want to see my emails in your motion

[00:27:55] this is when things start to get a little bit more so the email we saw last week that you guys all

[00:28:02] you read on your last podcast which was really good that was not intended that was not supposed

[00:28:08] to be in that motion. Wow that's really interesting yeah that sounds like things are getting needed

[00:28:15] yeah to say the least yeah you could tell this had been coming the intense and granted there probably

[00:28:22] have should have been probably some free trials which I kept wondering when are we going to start

[00:28:28] seeing some of these free trials and she then went into discussion about when was he was bringing

[00:28:39] up about the evidence now we're still coming this is just now coming back after conversation that he

[00:28:46] couldn't have a private conversation with and then at that time the there was an open office in the

[00:28:57] courtroom that they could go into by themselves and be it would be a secure room and the Allen

[00:29:05] County deputies would not have to be in place and Rosie said what's the point of that now I've already

[00:29:13] had the discussion I needed to have with it right so so goal actually judge goal actually uh said we

[00:29:20] can do that right now because Rosie made the point that it had happened before when they've been there

[00:29:26] with Alan that there's been you know you know guards present and they don't have full privacy

[00:29:33] and Judge Gull immediately asked her the fellow in charge of the court the bailiff immediately

[00:29:41] and she said we can do that right now and he said it's too late now that ship has passed

[00:29:48] and so then he made the 15 he brought up about the 15 business um days that they required to

[00:29:57] give an adequate defense and then he withdrew the speedy trial uh and and and then so that

[00:30:06] was very short he he made a few sentence statements about withdrawing the speed

[00:30:13] and then Baldwin stood up and he has he had a motion to request that she be disqualified that

[00:30:23] that you be disqualified is what he said to her and he said do you need a copy and she said no

[00:30:31] she says it needs to be e-filed no I'll read it after and it was I believe it was 24 pages

[00:30:38] that they referred to that motion to disqualify her and then she asked

[00:30:45] Nick if he wanted to respond to that and he said no and she said you can respond to it after it's

[00:30:53] been filed and that's fine so then she confirmed that he's waiving his Alan is waiving his right

[00:31:03] to a speedy trial Rosie answered yes and she immediately set the date of October 14th to

[00:31:09] November 15th she made mention of 8 30 a.m with a court starting every day at 9 a.m and then

[00:31:18] then my favorite quote I gotta let me finish I gotta finish

[00:31:24] is that the defense and the prosecution are not communicating very well either

[00:31:30] because of the shame fear of the emails ending up in motion

[00:31:36] when there's supposed to be private communications going on between them right it seems like

[00:31:41] communications have sort of broken down to a certain extent and in the sense that you know

[00:31:45] people are doing things that the other parties are not happy with but Angie what was your favorite

[00:31:50] quote yeah I got an I got an okay so she said well I haven't written down an or and like I have

[00:31:56] of course I have never known but in perspective because first she mentioned over the hundreds

[00:32:02] and hundreds and hundreds of murder cases that she dealt with in a criminal case including that

[00:32:09] over 27 years the explosion and up in Marion County you remember that one the big case up there

[00:32:18] yeah

[00:32:21] a case involving a father that murdered his wife and three kids well she mentioned several

[00:32:29] different cases but they by this time the defense was really just they were very to the point of

[00:32:40] being unprofessional in their tones because the other courtroom figure Mr. Rosie

[00:32:48] voice I didn't say she stayed very calm through it all she never raised her voice

[00:32:56] and there was very little talk involved and so I'm going to go ahead and let Angie

[00:33:01] now I'm going to do my quote it was probably one of the best quotes of the whole

[00:33:05] that was said it was quite shocking I think yeah all right so what was

[00:33:11] a guess like yeah yeah yeah because it was it was it does have it does seem unprofessional to me

[00:33:19] yeah it was a little bit um it was startling it was it was very to me it was unprofessional

[00:33:26] in the line of work that they do it was an unprofessional thing to say but I'm going to go

[00:33:29] ahead and let Angie share that so Judge Gold set her seat for the new trial immediately in response

[00:33:38] to them withdrawing the speech of Petey and she said he made comments

[00:33:50] you read that I don't that's your note Rosie had pointed out that she had denied

[00:33:54] almost everything he had put in right yeah and then Gold responded if you can't try this case

[00:34:00] in that amount gentlemen and lady there's something wrong I see no reason why it can't be tried

[00:34:08] in that time and Rosie responded with you don't know anything about this case

[00:34:15] and it was that's amazing how did she respond to that that's what he said and he was very firm

[00:34:25] and it was like there was yeah it was there was a moment it was to me it was very unprofessional

[00:34:31] yeah well yeah yeah how did she react though was she like mad or was she just did you just

[00:34:38] amazingly she had no reaction

[00:34:46] she said after 27 years are you telling me that 30 days isn't long enough and at this point Richard

[00:34:53] Allen was not engaged he was just staring down and she said she also continued on and said why

[00:35:00] don't you have these discussions and let me know it is patently clear that the defense of

[00:35:07] prosecution are dealing with each other in written form only and then Rosie responded

[00:35:13] and I missed the response but then she said we are all here now why don't we have these discussions

[00:35:19] now and so what did happen instead if they weren't discussing what they were there to discuss

[00:35:28] well I actually left at this point because we had the motion to disqualify her and a new trial date

[00:35:39] and she granted the motion to continue or to continue I don't know how they're specifically

[00:35:44] going to file motion to withdraw the speedy or motion to continue or what have you so Sarah

[00:35:50] will continue on with the rest of the observations she granted that the trial be trapped

[00:35:56] and reset for October 14th through November 15th I am assuming that she'll go on Monday

[00:36:07] through Saturday like original plans are and then she had also asked the state if they had any

[00:36:16] response to what had just transpired with this being now a month-long trial and he which I

[00:36:26] totally agree with the burden of proof is on the state it's not up to any defense attorney to say

[00:36:35] anything if the burden is on the state to prove that that person is guilty so with the tone that

[00:36:43] was set and you could see that this wasn't going to calm you could tell it wasn't going to calm down

[00:36:49] Baldwin gave her once he gave her that 24 page motion for her to recuse herself

[00:37:00] and she just shook her head and she said she wouldn't she hadn't read it and he asked her

[00:37:05] if she wanted a copy of it and she said no you can refile it and I'll read it on there

[00:37:11] yeah there was no reaction about it oh yeah she had no so I was you know it was very cute

[00:37:17] so let me just uh let me just interject here quickly uh so so just let me kind of go over

[00:37:23] everyone's sort of mood and and you can tell me so McLean speaks very little during this um

[00:37:30] Judge Gull's pretty calm maybe stony faced a bit and um Baldwin's talking less than Rosie

[00:37:37] and and Rosie's yelling basically the whole time yeah very yeah he worked his way up he

[00:37:43] yeah he worked his way up very similar to the June 15th 2023 yeah I remember thinking he was

[00:37:49] somewhat um had somewhat of a lack of control during that June hearing and so it's surprising

[00:37:55] that he's sort of gone back to that strategy a very different one than what was in there March 13th

[00:38:04] or 18th remember you're here right during the contempt issues right yeah right um

[00:38:12] the state the state did bring up if they were going to discuss today the Frank's hearing

[00:38:18] and immediately Judge Gull said no and but it was kind of like the uh state um and that would be um

[00:38:29] Ms. Cleveland um said are we asked are we going to be hearing Frank's number two or three or

[00:38:34] whatever number we're on and she said no wow so I mean this is it sounds like it kind of got a

[00:38:44] little bit out of control frankly and the second Kevin and I are not there then obviously then

[00:38:49] it's going to be some dramatic nobody shows up in the audience well it was you know in fairness

[00:38:56] though you guys were there in June of last year you saw a bit of the tension that slowly built

[00:39:02] build up so it kind of like build up but it built up a little bit faster the language was

[00:39:07] went from when Rosie came out and he was very I mean I have all this you know what he said and his

[00:39:14] speech was very um deferential and he was he was very um considerate and you know it wasn't it

[00:39:24] wasn't like a groveling type of speaking or anything like that because I just kind of saw that at the

[00:39:29] contempt hearing from Hennessey but no it was just normal it by all appearances didn't seem like

[00:39:36] it was going to go the way it ended up going right and I yeah and I just we were headed down this path

[00:39:43] of a new trial date I guess the majority of that have followed this case yeah it's kind of

[00:39:50] sounds obvious they're still doing depositions they haven't looked at the discovery yet they're

[00:39:55] not you know they're not preparing opening you know fine-tuning their opening statements

[00:40:00] like at this point right now when the trial starts next week they're not now but the state is the

[00:40:07] state's already got Nick Nick is ready to go well and both sides very obvious they both had their

[00:40:15] the evidence in their discovery that they come out oh rather quickly but it was done let me just

[00:40:22] ask you both something I just want to just sorry to cut you off I just want to ask um did did the

[00:40:26] defense give a reason for their um nixing the speedy trial other than or was it just a matter of

[00:40:34] we can't get a longer time in May because of the jury rules and therefore we need to move it back

[00:40:41] the time constraint they felt would amper a proper they wanted a full 15 days

[00:40:50] to put on a defense so so was there anything else covered in the hearing before it wrapped up

[00:41:01] yes yes so um they have set May 21st May 22nd and May 23rd starting at nine o'clock in Carroll

[00:41:10] County we will have um the defense's two suppression hearings and the state's uh

[00:41:18] fine and all that will be in Carroll County um there was also a concern brought out

[00:41:28] about the notification that Alan was being housed at the Allen County Jail um Judge Bill brought this

[00:41:36] up and she looked and talked with Rose Rosie about this she was very upset that that news got out

[00:41:45] that that that and I felt the same way that you decide a safekeeping order by letting that

[00:41:54] information out and notifying everybody where Richard Allen was last night yeah because last

[00:42:05] night there was a mugshot released and it revealed that he is now in the Carroll County Jail and that

[00:42:11] caught a lot of people by Allen County Jail Allen County that was that was not to be released

[00:42:18] so did they explain what the heck happened there like why was it released um well the defense

[00:42:23] didn't know it wasn't supposed to be released so did they they sent it to journalists or the defense

[00:42:31] did we really don't know it didn't come clear but she was leaning towards the defense with that okay

[00:42:41] so yet another instance of the defense maybe doing something that ticks off the judge

[00:42:47] like unprofessionalism I mean you're playing in great danger when you're doing stuff like this

[00:42:55] and another thing is that as we when we got back to the hotel here I get a message on my

[00:43:02] in vine account and it states on there that Richard Allen is being transported back

[00:43:13] he has left Allen County Jail but I never got one that he was moved yesterday

[00:43:19] and so that was supposed to be tucked under for his protections because he is in the care

[00:43:25] under a safekeeping order for a region yes and we know that in prisons and in jails people who

[00:43:32] are perceived as having harmed children are at an especial risk from other inmates in terms of

[00:43:38] violence absolutely and this was supposed to have been done and be kept quiet yeah that's shocking

[00:43:45] and it was easier for Richard Allen to you know be able to get there and rest overnight and then

[00:43:51] go to court the next morning so that's not that was the judge being considerate of him

[00:43:57] but I don't think they were ready that was that was not to be released but in part

[00:44:04] so how did this thing end oh so it ended with the discussion over how and when that all got released

[00:44:16] and how upset she was over that and it ended with the scheduling of the hearing

[00:44:23] which will since they had them them dates already reserved for the actual trial they're

[00:44:29] going to use three of those days for the suppression hearing and to plan to go all day on all three

[00:44:35] days okay and and then that was it basically yeah we'll see you guys up there yeah we'll be there

[00:44:44] we'll definitely be there and so and we just thank you again for for going and for taking such

[00:44:49] good notes and for sharing your insights with us this has really been fascinating we really

[00:44:53] appreciate both of you before we go are there any other things you wanted to mention or do you want

[00:44:59] to share your opinions about any of the impressions yeah I'm going I'm going to because I have been to

[00:45:06] almost every one day I think I missed one hearing and that was very far back in February of 23

[00:45:15] and there was there's a certain there's a certain amount of respect you have in a courtroom

[00:45:25] even us little people you know when you go into a courtroom there's a hierarchy

[00:45:31] and there's below it just like in any other but there is a certain amount of respect to be shown

[00:45:40] to a judge she's being painted as a very unfair judge but she has guidelines she has rules she

[00:45:51] has to go by and she's following those rules these are her decisions as you know you said in a

[00:45:59] courtroom last October 31st with me and her negative things said about Judge Gull that if

[00:46:07] she had been a man I would not have been called she would not have been called that and I think

[00:46:15] the unprofessionalism has to stop or they're going to be butting heads all the way through

[00:46:20] and it's actually harming the climate well said Sarah Angie uh what were your impressions

[00:46:30] well I was right I was prepared for that to go longer than the contempt of dismissal hearing I

[00:46:39] thought we were going to be uh that motion and the mean was going to be you know I thought we

[00:46:45] were going to be grinding it out over odinism and um and you know on Logan and the climb

[00:46:52] Logan and the climb Todd click I thought that that in and of itself was going to be a full

[00:46:58] day to be honest and judging by the looks of the of the carts that they wheeled in

[00:47:04] full of files I think that's where we were headed but it just didn't happen and um it's

[00:47:11] just it's just another day in the bubble as I like to say it's just you know you can't predict

[00:47:19] what I mean you can but you can't there's always some surprises and real quick probably I think our

[00:47:25] final my my definitely final thought is and I know and yet you know being in the law and judicial

[00:47:33] system Richard Allen isn't he is innocent until he's been proven guilty by a jury of his peers

[00:47:41] but so much of this this upheaval and this stuff needs discount because in the middle of these we

[00:47:48] lost two innocent young girls I don't know I have not heard the evidence I can't say anybody who

[00:47:55] says he's guilty or he's innocent really that's an opinion or speculation because nobody's heard

[00:48:02] evidence the state of Indiana has been extremely tight-lipped yeah but we need to remember

[00:48:11] we lost two two little girls Abby and Libby and we can't forget that yeah thank you so much for

[00:48:18] this yeah you both have been wonderful and just thanks for doing it oh wait listen to

[00:48:24] the world of you guys you can edit that part out don't tell anybody oh Sarah we're leaving that in

[00:48:29] we're leaving that in we want that in for the record that's on the record

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[00:50:08] wondery well anya before we wrap up this episode why don't we take a couple of minutes just to try

[00:50:16] to talk out and figure out what we think about all this first of all it was disappointing not

[00:50:21] to be there but i really appreciate angie and sarah being uh our eyes and ears today

[00:50:29] absolutely they were just amazing for doing this they were able to give us insights we also had a

[00:50:35] couple of other conversations on background with different people who were there so i feel like

[00:50:39] because we just you know were able to rely on people who care about this case we ended up with

[00:50:44] a decent perspective on what happened so we really appreciate both of them and everyone else who

[00:50:49] talked to us now anya knowing you as i do i suspect you might have some strong feelings well yeah i'm

[00:50:55] pretty you know disappointed that uh this is not gonna happen in may we were both i think in a

[00:51:01] position where we were doubtful about at different points and then allowing ourselves to believe it

[00:51:05] and then doubtful and just to be clear this whole thing is very grueling for everyone involved so i

[00:51:11] would have liked to see it over with for for that reason and yeah keep in mind the uh if people who

[00:51:17] follow the case or people like us who cover the case it's grueling for us but think about how

[00:51:23] this must be for the families and to be kind of a jerked around oh it's going to happen this day

[00:51:29] no it's not going to happen this day uh that that's hard i know it's hard i always felt that

[00:51:34] the defense was somewhat facetious in filing for a speedy trial and i'm going to explain why

[00:51:39] we know from previous filings that they had this document essentially carte blanche essentially

[00:51:45] where they had just richard allen signed it at a random time and they threw it out there

[00:51:49] so and we heard from other defense attorneys that that seemed like sort of a weaponization

[00:51:53] of speedy trial i had i had a feeling that it had a lot to do with the fact that they were being

[00:51:58] tried for contempt and honestly none of what happened today sort of um absolves them from that

[00:52:05] in my mind i think that i i think that's this is an instance where they were this was a strategic

[00:52:13] filing um and not necessarily a fully sincere one and um i'm i'm kind of doubtful at this point

[00:52:22] while i would like to see obviously them get as much time as as possible i think with another

[00:52:29] team another defense team i would probably be more sympathetic to the argument that we need

[00:52:34] more time but with with these people i just don't know um there's been so much frankly

[00:52:40] flim flam and nonsense going on that i i don't do they really need that much more time i mean what

[00:52:48] here's where i'm at i don't know i don't know how much time the defense needs to do their case

[00:52:54] and also obviously i don't know nobody knows if they're going to be allowed to include the

[00:53:00] odinism stuff that's what i mean if if half of their people are going to talk about odinism or

[00:53:04] like you know or some youtube commentator who's going to tell their theory and those aren't going

[00:53:09] to be allowed then how can they even determine how much time they need so we don't know we don't know

[00:53:14] but what i would have liked to have seen is uh judge gold pointed out that she did not get

[00:53:22] any communication from the defense about how much time they needed or rather she did not get

[00:53:28] any communication from them that the time allotted would not be sufficient until april 30th and it is

[00:53:36] difficult to believe that on april 29th they had no problems and on april 30th they suddenly did

[00:53:42] so they probably should have notified the judge of these types of issues pretty quickly after

[00:53:51] filing the order for the speedy trial and if they had done so i'm inclined to think that the jury

[00:53:59] questionnaire could have been written in such a way that maybe the trial could have happened

[00:54:04] it's almost like they don't really want it to go off in mid-may and they just self-sabotage until

[00:54:11] that inevitably fell apart i mean that's i mean again i'm not saying i know that for a fact i

[00:54:16] don't know what's in their heads but i think people who are serious about making something happen

[00:54:22] tend to be more methodical and meticulous about how they approach that goal you know when we

[00:54:30] want something to happen we check different things and make sure that nothing is happening

[00:54:35] that could preclude what we want from happening to go off without a hitch and in this case it

[00:54:42] doesn't seem like they did that so you're looking at either incompetence where they're just not

[00:54:47] thinking to do these things and it's a mistake it's an honest mistake but it's still a mistake

[00:54:52] or it's a matter of well we don't really want it to go in may that's just posturing so you know

[00:54:59] who cares we're not gonna we're not gonna make those make those uh statements we're not gonna

[00:55:04] send those emails to get it all planned properly i don't understand it i tend to look at it as just

[00:55:10] sort of cynical at this point because that's sort of what i've seen so far from this team i've not

[00:55:16] seen we've seen a lot of this kind of thing happen so i'm the you know the benefit of the doubt is

[00:55:23] something that i'm not willing to extend at this point uh also i'm very curious to see baldwin's

[00:55:31] motion for judge gold to be disqualified apparently it's a pretty lengthy one i think i

[00:55:38] think uh they said about 24 pages and the reason i'm interested in seeing this is that they tried

[00:55:45] to get her to disqualified by the indiana supreme court and the indiana supreme court said in january

[00:55:51] no nothing she has done rises anywhere near the level of disqualification so if you want her to

[00:55:58] be disqualified you would have to look at things she's done since january of 2024 when she was

[00:56:05] essentially absolved by the indiana state supreme court and it's difficult for me to see what she's

[00:56:12] done since then that would be such an issue she's found them not in contempt uh she's ruled against

[00:56:20] some of their filings but she's that ruling against a lawyer's filings is not indicative

[00:56:27] of bias that's just not how it works you know people can read in whatever they want to specific

[00:56:35] actions but as far as the court is concerned that the judge has discretion to you know rule against

[00:56:43] or for whoever they want so i mean they're just trying to create a record so if they lose maybe

[00:56:51] an appeals court judge can look at this and say oh maybe you know but good luck with that given

[00:56:56] that the supreme court has said she didn't basically what the supreme court said is that

[00:57:01] she reached for the eject button when she should have reached for like the you know shields button

[00:57:07] she did the wrong thing but we've corrected that by bringing the attorneys back on after

[00:57:12] she dismissed them so it's a matter of you know we we fixed the issue but did she do the wrong thing

[00:57:23] yes have we corrected it yes but also was her impulse was her heart in the wrong place no

[00:57:28] because she didn't have the benefit of hindsight and she was scrambling to protect the case so

[00:57:34] basically they they gave her a thumbs up on that and it's not and frankly they they kind of did

[00:57:41] her a huge favor in what they wrote because they sort of gave her a blank check because they almost

[00:57:46] absolved her of any contention with the defense prior to the supreme court hearing they're saying

[00:57:52] this is all fine so that as kevin said the defense would have to nail her on something

[00:57:57] after now it's it's pretty clear from what we we've uh just heard from uh sarah and angie

[00:58:04] and what we we've seen in other filings and stuff that the defense doesn't like the judge

[00:58:10] and the judge doesn't like the defense it seems at this point that the defense is the ones

[00:58:15] really coming at this from a more hostile place from what they said in in fairness in her contempt

[00:58:20] decision i think she called them sloppy negligent incompetent but the thing is before i started

[00:58:27] working with anya there were times in my life where i worked with people i didn't like

[00:58:32] and you just have to be a professional and rise above it and it doesn't say in any indiana state

[00:58:38] constitution or federal constitution that i'm aware of that you have a constitutional right

[00:58:44] for defense attorneys and judges to be best friends yeah they don't need to be going over

[00:58:49] to each other's houses and hanging out and doing weekend trips together they just need to be

[00:58:54] professionals and make it work and frankly something that i've observed throughout this process

[00:58:59] is from the defense sort of a um an interesting set of priorities in terms of who they're writing

[00:59:07] their filings towards uh for and who they are sort of speaking to normally in a normal case you

[00:59:14] would see both sides writing filings for the benefit of the judge an audience of one hey judge

[00:59:20] here's why we're right you know side with us in in the defense's case we have not seen that

[00:59:29] we have seen again and again um essentially press releases disguised as um

[00:59:37] filings and we've seen um a kind of in my opinion disturbing willingness to sort of uh speak to

[00:59:46] what i would call people who are like cranks and conspiracy theorists and i don't feel like from

[00:59:51] their side there has been much of an effort to get along with the judge we even saw that early on

[00:59:57] where they essentially had some sort of in chambers conversation with her where they said

[01:00:00] we're not going to try it in the press and then like you know it's almost like a cut in a comedy

[01:00:05] movie to like them releasing a press release you know and and that's i don't think that's

[01:00:10] contemptuous but it's certainly not it's that's not the behavior of attorneys who are trying to

[01:00:14] get along with the judge i feel like they essentially wrote her off very early on and

[01:00:18] have just been doing whatever they want and then when she gets annoyed at them then maybe they're

[01:00:23] using that as sort of um ammo to go after her for being biased i just i don't really see that

[01:00:30] as necessarily a long-term effective strategy because i think the record is not necessarily

[01:00:37] going to be on their side in that situation anything else you want to cover well i would

[01:00:43] say again i'm disappointed that we're not we're not doing may it sounds like you know i mean i i

[01:00:49] really question how long this this trial needs to be at this point and i um i don't know i'm just

[01:01:00] i i guess i'll say this i've said this before but i'll say it again i really really feel like

[01:01:08] someone needs to get to the bottom of what richard allen wants in all of this

[01:01:14] and i don't know i'm not a lawyer i don't know what the process of that would be

[01:01:19] but if this man is being used as a pawn by other people in order to you know have some outcome that

[01:01:30] others want that's not fair to him he has the right to do whatever he wants and he should be

[01:01:36] getting support from people who are you know hired to support him in this process and there's been

[01:01:42] things in this case where i've been disturbed to see that he does not seem to have a real grasp of

[01:01:47] what's going on and that is not good and the fact that you know the fact that it's been diverted to

[01:01:54] october at this point is disappointing i think that's probably good for the defense to have

[01:02:00] more time to prepare i felt that they were completely unprepared for may um judging by

[01:02:07] what's happened so far i don't know that they'll be prepared for october but i certainly hope that

[01:02:12] they consider you know getting ready because i think they're really going to need to be ready

[01:02:18] for this well said thank you for listening everybody we'll talk with you soon thanks

[01:02:28] thanks so much for listening to the murder sheet if you have a tip concerning one of the cases we

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