The Delphi Murders: Orders and an Upcoming Hearing

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Content Warning. This episode contains discussion of the murder of two girls, as well as topics

[00:00:05] [SPEAKER_00]: like mental health and suicide.

[00:00:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, since the last time we have spoken, there have been a few fresh filings in the

[00:00:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Richard Allen case, which is of course the case wherein he is charged with being responsible

[00:00:20] [SPEAKER_01]: for the murders of Abigail Williams and Liberty German. Namely, there's been a

[00:00:25] [SPEAKER_01]: couple of orders issued by the judge. Another hearing has been scheduled. There's been

[00:00:29] [SPEAKER_01]: a filing from the defense as well. So there's quite a few things for us to chat about here today.

[00:00:36] [SPEAKER_00]: My name is Anya Cain. I'm a journalist.

[00:00:39] [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

[00:00:41] [SPEAKER_01]: And this is The Murder Sheet.

[00:00:43] [SPEAKER_01]: We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews and deep dives into

[00:00:48] [SPEAKER_01]: murder cases.

[00:00:50] [SPEAKER_01]: We're The Murder Sheet.

[00:00:52] [SPEAKER_00]: And this is The Delphi Murders, Orders and an Upcoming Hearing.

[00:01:43] [SPEAKER_01]: So let's take this in chronological order.

[00:01:47] [SPEAKER_01]: And the first development was that Judge Gull scheduled a status hearing for August

[00:01:54] [SPEAKER_01]: 23rd, 2024 at 1 p.m. in the Carroll Circuit Court.

[00:02:00] [SPEAKER_01]: And one interesting thing about this particular hearing is the first portion of it will be

[00:02:06] [SPEAKER_01]: closed to the public.

[00:02:07] [SPEAKER_01]: The second portion of the hearing will be open to the public.

[00:02:12] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think one question that springs to mind immediately for everyone listening is

[00:02:19] [SPEAKER_01]: how will this hearing be impacted by Bacon Fest?

[00:02:23] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's actually a legitimate question.

[00:02:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Bacon Fest is an event that is held regularly in Delphi, Indiana and is actually

[00:02:32] [SPEAKER_01]: being held on Saturday, August 24th.

[00:02:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Pretty big event.

[00:02:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Attracts a lot of people.

[00:02:41] [SPEAKER_01]: The former lead singer from Foreigner is going to be there.

[00:02:44] [SPEAKER_01]: And my understanding is that parking will be an issue and the parking will be an

[00:02:52] [SPEAKER_01]: issue even on Friday, particularly later in the day on Friday as people get ready

[00:03:00] [SPEAKER_01]: for Bacon Fest.

[00:03:01] [SPEAKER_01]: So there is likely to be some sort of an impact there.

[00:03:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[00:03:04] [SPEAKER_00]: It's also a reminder that Delphi, Indiana is a city.

[00:03:08] [SPEAKER_00]: It's a place where people live.

[00:03:10] [SPEAKER_00]: It's not just a place where something awful happened in 2017.

[00:03:14] [SPEAKER_00]: People continue to live there and go about their business.

[00:03:16] [SPEAKER_00]: I think it's very important to remember that when we're talking about

[00:03:20] [SPEAKER_00]: communities, especially communities that we personally don't belong to, it's

[00:03:24] [SPEAKER_00]: not just a backdrop for a crime that we're fascinated with.

[00:03:28] [SPEAKER_00]: It's a living, breathing place with living, breathing people.

[00:03:31] [SPEAKER_00]: And that's something that we try to keep in mind, especially if we're not from an

[00:03:35] [SPEAKER_00]: area.

[00:03:36] [SPEAKER_00]: And we've just encouraged everyone to do so because I think sometimes Delphi

[00:03:39] [SPEAKER_00]: gets maligned as, oh, it's so mysterious and people there and, you know,

[00:03:44] [SPEAKER_00]: conspiracy theorists say it's corrupt.

[00:03:45] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's just, it's just a city in Indiana.

[00:03:48] [SPEAKER_00]: It's got, it's got its problems.

[00:03:50] [SPEAKER_00]: It's got its nice parts.

[00:03:51] [SPEAKER_00]: It's got its cool things like Bacon Fest.

[00:03:54] [SPEAKER_00]: And so, I mean,

[00:03:54] [SPEAKER_01]: We've never been to Bacon Fest, but I suspect that's going to change

[00:03:58] [SPEAKER_01]: shortly.

[00:03:58] [SPEAKER_01]: It sounds like a great event.

[00:03:59] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, it definitely does.

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[00:05:07] [SPEAKER_01]: But with that said, there are some more other questions raised by this,

[00:05:11] [SPEAKER_01]: namely what is this hearing all about?

[00:05:15] [SPEAKER_01]: All the order says is that it is a status hearing and a status hearing

[00:05:21] [SPEAKER_01]: is literally what you would think it is.

[00:05:25] [SPEAKER_01]: It's a hearing to determine the status of a case.

[00:05:28] [SPEAKER_01]: And that can be everything from, for instance, if the defense attorneys

[00:05:32] [SPEAKER_01]: don't feel they're getting all the discovery they're needed or if there's

[00:05:35] [SPEAKER_01]: problems with witnesses or things like that, they can discuss the status

[00:05:41] [SPEAKER_01]: of the case with Judge Goal, with the other counsel present so they

[00:05:45] [SPEAKER_01]: can figure out where things stand, whether things need to change.

[00:05:49] [SPEAKER_01]: And yes, sometimes in status hearings it's possible for pleas, a possible

[00:05:56] [SPEAKER_01]: pleas to be discussed because judges like to run courts and stuff in an

[00:06:03] [SPEAKER_01]: efficient manner.

[00:06:04] [SPEAKER_01]: And if there is a way to avoid having a trial while serving the rights

[00:06:09] [SPEAKER_01]: and interests of all of those involved, certainly that is something

[00:06:13] [SPEAKER_01]: that would be explored.

[00:06:16] [SPEAKER_01]: So it would not surprise me if either this hearing or before this

[00:06:20] [SPEAKER_01]: hearing or some point after this hearing, some sort of a potential

[00:06:25] [SPEAKER_01]: plea might be proffered or offered by prosecutor McClellan.

[00:06:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Let's just, let's just, before everyone gets spun around, let's

[00:06:35] [SPEAKER_00]: just make that, that would be McClellan offering or proffering

[00:06:40] [SPEAKER_00]: a plea deal of some kind.

[00:06:42] [SPEAKER_00]: That would not necessarily mean that Richard Allen, we are not

[00:06:45] [SPEAKER_00]: saying in any way that Richard Allen would be likely to accept that.

[00:06:48] [SPEAKER_00]: That's something that's between him and his attorneys.

[00:06:51] [SPEAKER_01]: So-

[00:06:51] [SPEAKER_01]: And his wife and mother.

[00:06:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, apparently.

[00:06:54] [SPEAKER_00]: So this is something let's just, let me just break this down because

[00:06:57] [SPEAKER_00]: this can be confusing for me sometimes.

[00:06:59] [SPEAKER_00]: And I just think it's helpful to take a pause here and talk about

[00:07:01] [SPEAKER_00]: what we're talking about when we're talking about pleas.

[00:07:04] [SPEAKER_00]: So a plea deal is something where the prosecutor essentially goes to

[00:07:09] [SPEAKER_00]: the defendant and the defense attorneys and says, if you plead

[00:07:15] [SPEAKER_00]: guilty to this, this is the sentence we'd be willing to give you.

[00:07:18] [SPEAKER_00]: And that can be an opportunity in some cases for people to serve less time

[00:07:24] [SPEAKER_00]: or possibly get some perks or some control about where they're serving

[00:07:29] [SPEAKER_00]: time or how they're serving time.

[00:07:31] [SPEAKER_01]: We know for instance, that Richard Allen is someone who seems to

[00:07:35] [SPEAKER_01]: be quite close to his wife and mother.

[00:07:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe something could be established where he could be serve his time

[00:07:43] [SPEAKER_01]: at a correctional facility closer to them.

[00:07:48] [SPEAKER_00]: So that is a plea deal.

[00:07:50] [SPEAKER_00]: They're very common.

[00:07:52] [SPEAKER_00]: Most cases do not go to trial.

[00:07:54] [SPEAKER_00]: Most cases involve some kind of deal being reached between prosecution and

[00:07:58] [SPEAKER_00]: defense, and that is not a bad thing.

[00:08:01] [SPEAKER_00]: If every case went to trial, the courts would be swamped.

[00:08:04] [SPEAKER_00]: It just, it would not be possible.

[00:08:06] [SPEAKER_00]: So oftentimes they're maligned by people who say that's, you know,

[00:08:09] [SPEAKER_00]: prosecutors are making deals.

[00:08:10] [SPEAKER_00]: That's bad.

[00:08:11] [SPEAKER_00]: No, it's very much the lifeblood of how this all works.

[00:08:14] [SPEAKER_00]: Let's talk about something else.

[00:08:16] [SPEAKER_00]: A guilty plea.

[00:08:17] [SPEAKER_00]: A guilty plea does not necessarily have to come with a plea deal.

[00:08:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Kagan Klein.

[00:08:21] [SPEAKER_00]: Kagan Klein, one of the kind of Delphi suspects at one time who was convicted

[00:08:26] [SPEAKER_00]: or rather who pled guilty to a range of charges around child sexual abuse

[00:08:30] [SPEAKER_00]: materials, he preferred to not go to trial.

[00:08:33] [SPEAKER_00]: He pled guilty.

[00:08:35] [SPEAKER_00]: There was no deal offered him.

[00:08:36] [SPEAKER_00]: He was not incentivized in any way to do that.

[00:08:39] [SPEAKER_00]: He stood up and said, I did this and that's it.

[00:08:43] [SPEAKER_00]: And so that is a situation where no plea deal, but still a guilty plea.

[00:08:49] [SPEAKER_01]: And a potential reason for that is it can be awful.

[00:08:53] [SPEAKER_01]: The prospect of going into a courtroom day after day for the length of a

[00:08:59] [SPEAKER_01]: trial and hear everybody discuss horrible things you did and expose

[00:09:04] [SPEAKER_01]: that to the whole world.

[00:09:05] [SPEAKER_01]: I believe Mr.

[00:09:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Klein likely did not want to go through that.

[00:09:09] [SPEAKER_01]: And that is why he chose the course of action he did.

[00:09:12] [SPEAKER_00]: And so those are two different things, but let's talk about, you know,

[00:09:18] [SPEAKER_00]: I think a lot of people have already jumped to the conclusion that this

[00:09:21] [SPEAKER_00]: August 23rd hearing, it must be about some sort of plea or they're

[00:09:25] [SPEAKER_00]: going to work.

[00:09:26] [SPEAKER_00]: We don't know.

[00:09:27] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[00:09:27] [SPEAKER_00]: We don't know that Kevin's guessing about a plea deal possibly being

[00:09:31] [SPEAKER_00]: offered later on, but that's not necessarily what this is about.

[00:09:35] [SPEAKER_00]: And no one should be jumping to the conclusion that there's been some

[00:09:38] [SPEAKER_00]: sort of agreement reached already.

[00:09:39] [SPEAKER_00]: And also, let me just tell you, there would be a filing.

[00:09:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[00:09:43] [SPEAKER_01]: If a plea offer had been made and been accepted, there would be a

[00:09:47] [SPEAKER_01]: filing indicating that we need to have a change of plea hearing.

[00:09:51] [SPEAKER_00]: There's no filing.

[00:09:53] [SPEAKER_00]: And in addition to that, it wouldn't even make sense for a plea

[00:09:55] [SPEAKER_00]: agreement to be reached at this time.

[00:09:57] [SPEAKER_00]: And here's why because nobody knows where the chips have fallen in

[00:10:02] [SPEAKER_00]: terms of Odinism being a lot of.

[00:10:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Let's talk about that.

[00:10:05] [SPEAKER_01]: So the argument would be that if Odinism is allowed into the trial,

[00:10:10] [SPEAKER_01]: the defense would imagine they have a stronger hand to play at the trial.

[00:10:14] [SPEAKER_01]: And the argument would be that if Odinism is not allowed to the

[00:10:18] [SPEAKER_01]: trial, the prosecution would argue that they have a stronger hand.

[00:10:22] [SPEAKER_01]: And so before making a potential plea agreement, I think both sides

[00:10:28] [SPEAKER_01]: would want to know just how strong their hands are.

[00:10:30] [SPEAKER_01]: And they won't have that information until after the judge

[00:10:34] [SPEAKER_01]: makes those particular rulings.

[00:10:36] [SPEAKER_01]: So I don't mean to confuse anybody.

[00:10:39] [SPEAKER_01]: I think at some point an offer probably will be made.

[00:10:43] [SPEAKER_01]: That doesn't mean it will be accepted.

[00:10:46] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[00:10:46] [SPEAKER_00]: I think it's really important to emphasize that we have no idea

[00:10:49] [SPEAKER_00]: what this is going to be about.

[00:10:50] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think another thing that's important to emphasize is if you

[00:10:55] [SPEAKER_00]: were to see a plea deal already in Meckan, like there would be filings,

[00:10:58] [SPEAKER_00]: there would be things would look different than they do.

[00:11:02] [SPEAKER_00]: But there is some hint perhaps, and we can talk about the

[00:11:06] [SPEAKER_00]: likelihood of a plea deal.

[00:11:07] [SPEAKER_00]: I think we actually feel differently about this.

[00:11:09] [SPEAKER_00]: So this is an area where we, I think we disagree somewhat.

[00:11:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Is that right?

[00:11:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[00:11:14] [SPEAKER_00]: So do you want to talk about that now and then we can get

[00:11:16] [SPEAKER_00]: into what I think this might be?

[00:11:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Why don't we talk about it a little bit?

[00:11:21] [SPEAKER_00]: So I don't believe that Richard Allen is going to plead guilty

[00:11:25] [SPEAKER_00]: or accept a plea deal.

[00:11:27] [SPEAKER_00]: I think that signs point to his relationships with his wife and

[00:11:34] [SPEAKER_00]: mother being very important to him.

[00:11:38] [SPEAKER_00]: And essentially what we've heard in the past three hearings is that

[00:11:43] [SPEAKER_00]: they essentially gave him some kind of indication through their

[00:11:48] [SPEAKER_00]: actions and through their conversations with him and through their then

[00:11:51] [SPEAKER_00]: lack of conversations with him when they sort of iced him out,

[00:11:53] [SPEAKER_00]: that it is very important emotionally for them that he not confess to murder,

[00:12:00] [SPEAKER_00]: murdering two kids and that he continued to fight.

[00:12:03] [SPEAKER_00]: So if this is a person who is looking at two futures, one is plead

[00:12:09] [SPEAKER_00]: guilty, possibly lose the most important relationships in your life,

[00:12:13] [SPEAKER_00]: and then go to prison for a very long time, possibly for life and have no

[00:12:17] [SPEAKER_00]: visit you or gamble, go to trial, probably lose, but then be able to

[00:12:24] [SPEAKER_00]: maintain, well, I didn't really do it.

[00:12:26] [SPEAKER_00]: And people continue to come to visit you.

[00:12:28] [SPEAKER_00]: I think that ends up being the better option.

[00:12:31] [SPEAKER_00]: So if I'm looking at this from a guy who is trying to control the

[00:12:35] [SPEAKER_00]: best outcome for himself, that makes more sense.

[00:12:38] [SPEAKER_00]: And I also think it's very possible based on just sort of what's going

[00:12:42] [SPEAKER_00]: on here, that he may have some unrealistic views about his chances

[00:12:46] [SPEAKER_00]: at trial, because I am not convinced that this is a man that knows

[00:12:53] [SPEAKER_00]: everything about what he's facing here.

[00:12:55] [SPEAKER_00]: Because otherwise-

[00:12:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, obviously, we don't know what his attorneys say to him and his

[00:13:00] [SPEAKER_01]: family in private, but we did see in some of the messages we shared

[00:13:04] [SPEAKER_01]: recently that the due process gang sent back and forth-

[00:13:09] [SPEAKER_00]: The unofficial advisors to the Delphi defense team.

[00:13:11] [SPEAKER_01]: They indicated that members of the defense team, including the

[00:13:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Mr. Hoffman, were indicating that they believe that the prosecution

[00:13:19] [SPEAKER_01]: literally had absolutely no case against Richard Allen.

[00:13:23] [SPEAKER_01]: That is not actually true.

[00:13:25] [SPEAKER_01]: And if Richard Allen is being told they have no case against you,

[00:13:29] [SPEAKER_01]: you're saying that might incentivize him to fight.

[00:13:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:13:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Why not I fight?

[00:13:32] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, they have no case.

[00:13:34] [SPEAKER_00]: They bungled the case.

[00:13:35] [SPEAKER_00]: I might as well roll the dice here.

[00:13:37] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, that's, that is a concern of mine, frankly, because if he is

[00:13:41] [SPEAKER_00]: being told that, then he is being lied to.

[00:13:44] [SPEAKER_01]: So you basically think there's almost no chance of a plea.

[00:13:50] [SPEAKER_01]: I, if you wanted me to make a prediction, I would predict there

[00:13:55] [SPEAKER_01]: would be no plea, but I think there is more chance of it than what you are

[00:14:02] [SPEAKER_01]: suggesting and I say that for a couple of reasons, first of all, just the fact

[00:14:06] [SPEAKER_01]: that he went around making all of these confessions over and over again.

[00:14:11] [SPEAKER_01]: And he did this because he wanted to get right with God.

[00:14:14] [SPEAKER_01]: The desire to get right with God and unburden yourself doesn't necessarily

[00:14:19] [SPEAKER_01]: go away just because you want to make your wife happy.

[00:14:23] [SPEAKER_01]: I think it must still be in there somewhere.

[00:14:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Somewhere in there is still someone who wants to confess and to as much

[00:14:32] [SPEAKER_01]: as possible do what he sees as the right thing.

[00:14:36] [SPEAKER_01]: I also was struck in these hearings at one point, they were talking

[00:14:41] [SPEAKER_01]: about how Richard Allen, when he wasn't eating in prison or rather yet in

[00:14:47] [SPEAKER_01]: prison, it was because he was trying to lose some weight and they indicated

[00:14:51] [SPEAKER_01]: that control is very important to Richard Allen and the ability to

[00:14:56] [SPEAKER_01]: control his weight.

[00:14:58] [SPEAKER_01]: That was important to him because it was one of the few things he could

[00:15:01] [SPEAKER_01]: control and I think if he did choose to try to work out a plea deal,

[00:15:07] [SPEAKER_01]: that would be one of the last things in his life he really could have a lot

[00:15:11] [SPEAKER_01]: of control over, which is where he was going to spend the rest of his

[00:15:14] [SPEAKER_01]: life behind bars so he could exert some sort of control over his own

[00:15:18] [SPEAKER_01]: future if he did negotiate a plea.

[00:15:21] [SPEAKER_01]: So I don't think he will.

[00:15:23] [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's more likely than what you say.

[00:15:25] [SPEAKER_01]: I think you say it's pretty close to zero.

[00:15:27] [SPEAKER_01]: I rank it a bit higher than that.

[00:15:29] [SPEAKER_00]: I think what you're saying is totally reasonable and I definitely respect it.

[00:15:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Both of these things are both of our personal opinions about the situation

[00:15:39] [SPEAKER_00]: at this time, so this is not based on anything we've reported out.

[00:15:42] [SPEAKER_00]: It's more of assessing the different factors and trying to make educated

[00:15:48] [SPEAKER_00]: guesses around what makes sense to happen next.

[00:15:51] [SPEAKER_00]: But as we know in Delphi, expect the unexpected.

[00:15:54] [SPEAKER_01]: And one more thing, this may be naive of me and I acknowledge that.

[00:15:59] [SPEAKER_01]: We know that the investigator Mr.

[00:16:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Hoffman was being all blustery and making these pronouncements about no case,

[00:16:07] [SPEAKER_01]: but he was making those pronouncements to people who he was trying to

[00:16:11] [SPEAKER_01]: influence to spread sentiments and information that he wanted spread.

[00:16:17] [SPEAKER_01]: I would hope that in the privacy of their own counsel with their

[00:16:22] [SPEAKER_01]: client, that attorneys Baldwin and Rosie would offer Mr.

[00:16:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Allen a more accurate assessment of what he faces, including the fact that Mr.

[00:16:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Allen's own actions in making these confessions have made it much, much

[00:16:37] [SPEAKER_01]: more difficult for him to ever get acquitted.

[00:16:41] [SPEAKER_00]: I sincerely hope that those conversations are going on because

[00:16:47] [SPEAKER_00]: that it is not effective and good and ethical lawyering to basically

[00:16:53] [SPEAKER_00]: pump somebody up so that you can have a glamorous, high profile trial.

[00:17:01] [SPEAKER_00]: So that when there could be something worked out in a situation where the

[00:17:06] [SPEAKER_00]: person actually wants to confess and doesn't want to go through that.

[00:17:11] [SPEAKER_01]: You said there were some hints in here what you thought this might be about.

[00:17:14] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I would say that it's not really, I mean, this is my

[00:17:18] [SPEAKER_00]: speculation obviously, but at the end of the third day of hearings,

[00:17:22] [SPEAKER_00]: you know, it was working, you know, getting to eight o'clock in the evening.

[00:17:27] [SPEAKER_00]: And all of all six of the attorneys, the three defense attorneys and

[00:17:31] [SPEAKER_00]: three prosecutors gathered together before judge Gull's bench and had a

[00:17:35] [SPEAKER_00]: discussion.

[00:17:36] [SPEAKER_00]: It went on for quite some time.

[00:17:38] [SPEAKER_00]: At one point I saw Brad Rosie sort of step away from the bench

[00:17:41] [SPEAKER_00]: and sort of gesture.

[00:17:42] [SPEAKER_00]: He seemed very animated, perhaps agitated, I would say.

[00:17:46] [SPEAKER_00]: And there just seemed to be this kind of discussion and it was kind

[00:17:49] [SPEAKER_00]: of odd.

[00:17:50] [SPEAKER_00]: It struck me as odd because previously I'd been struck by how well everyone

[00:17:54] [SPEAKER_00]: seemed to be mostly getting along as far as the defense attorneys, the

[00:17:58] [SPEAKER_00]: judge and the prosecutors.

[00:18:00] [SPEAKER_00]: But this was kind of a display of emotion from Rosie.

[00:18:06] [SPEAKER_00]: And what I don't, I'm paraphrasing, but what judge Gull essentially said was

[00:18:10] [SPEAKER_00]: basically we don't have time to deal with this now.

[00:18:13] [SPEAKER_00]: We will revisit it next week.

[00:18:15] [SPEAKER_00]: So there was some unfinished business that the rest of the gallery were

[00:18:19] [SPEAKER_00]: not privy to that had to be finished up at a time later on.

[00:18:24] [SPEAKER_00]: And so what I suspect is that whatever was being discussed there may come up

[00:18:29] [SPEAKER_00]: for August 23rd and may in fact be the private portion of the session.

[00:18:35] [SPEAKER_00]: It may be they're all going to get together and talk more about whatever

[00:18:38] [SPEAKER_00]: the heck they were talking about and then let everyone in.

[00:18:40] [SPEAKER_00]: And I don't know what the difference will be.

[00:18:43] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know what we can expect people often ask, is this going to be

[00:18:46] [SPEAKER_00]: really important?

[00:18:46] [SPEAKER_00]: With Delphi, you don't know.

[00:18:48] [SPEAKER_00]: It could be really important or it could be five minutes and then

[00:18:52] [SPEAKER_00]: everyone's dismissed.

[00:18:53] [SPEAKER_00]: We just don't know.

[00:18:54] [SPEAKER_01]: I think we saw some hearings in the Kagan Klein case where basically

[00:18:58] [SPEAKER_01]: attorneys for both sides showed up and the judge said, how are things

[00:19:01] [SPEAKER_01]: going?

[00:19:02] [SPEAKER_01]: And both sides said things are going great.

[00:19:03] [SPEAKER_01]: And they said, okay, see you next time.

[00:19:05] [SPEAKER_00]: So it could be nothing, could be everything, could be huge,

[00:19:09] [SPEAKER_00]: could be very miniscule, but either way there's just no way of knowing.

[00:19:12] [SPEAKER_00]: And we don't even know what's going to be discussed here, but I

[00:19:16] [SPEAKER_00]: think it's just important to stress anyone going around saying, oh, it's

[00:19:19] [SPEAKER_00]: going to be a plea deal is just guessing.

[00:19:22] [SPEAKER_00]: That's just guesswork.

[00:19:23] [SPEAKER_00]: And I would say I don't believe that that's what this hearing is

[00:19:26] [SPEAKER_00]: for because we've not seen any signs of that from the from the

[00:19:29] [SPEAKER_00]: filings.

[00:19:30] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it's possible that one could be proffered between then and

[00:19:34] [SPEAKER_00]: now, but I think both sides need more information before that can

[00:19:39] [SPEAKER_00]: even happen.

[00:19:41] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's also entirely possible that if Judge Gold doesn't allow

[00:19:45] [SPEAKER_01]: the odonism in that the defense would try to appeal that in some

[00:19:51] [SPEAKER_01]: manner.

[00:19:51] [SPEAKER_01]: So there's all sorts of different things.

[00:19:53] [SPEAKER_00]: That would delay things considerably.

[00:19:56] [SPEAKER_01]: So shall we move on?

[00:19:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[00:19:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Let's talk about Judge Gold also issued some other orders.

[00:20:03] [SPEAKER_01]: I am going to read from one, this she is responding to the

[00:20:07] [SPEAKER_01]: defense's third Frank's notice and request for a Frank's hearing.

[00:20:12] [SPEAKER_01]: She denied it without a hearing.

[00:20:15] [SPEAKER_01]: She denied the request for the Frank's hearing.

[00:20:17] [SPEAKER_01]: She says that the court, I'm quoting now quote, the court finds

[00:20:21] [SPEAKER_01]: that the affidavit submitted in support of the issuance of the

[00:20:26] [SPEAKER_01]: search warrant contain information that a reasonable belief existed

[00:20:29] [SPEAKER_01]: that that evidence of the murders would be found in the

[00:20:32] [SPEAKER_01]: defendant's vehicles and home.

[00:20:34] [SPEAKER_01]: The affidavit did not contain false statements nor does the

[00:20:37] [SPEAKER_01]: affiant amidst statues with reckless disregard.

[00:20:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Further, the court does not find the affiant intended to mislead

[00:20:43] [SPEAKER_01]: the judge by failing to present relevant information.

[00:20:46] [SPEAKER_01]: End quote.

[00:20:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Because of course, in the Frank's motions, they indicated

[00:20:50] [SPEAKER_01]: that law enforcement misled the judge.

[00:20:54] [SPEAKER_01]: In that case it was Judge Deener and didn't supply all the

[00:20:59] [SPEAKER_01]: relevant information that should have been included when they

[00:21:02] [SPEAKER_01]: were applying for a search warrant to search the

[00:21:05] [SPEAKER_01]: residence of Richard Allen.

[00:21:08] [SPEAKER_01]: And Judge Gold is indicating, no, I don't see it that way.

[00:21:11] [SPEAKER_01]: And in fact, you haven't even given me enough evidence to

[00:21:15] [SPEAKER_01]: justify having a hearing.

[00:21:17] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I don't see how this could have gone any other way.

[00:21:20] [SPEAKER_00]: I feel like the Frank's motions have gotten patently

[00:21:24] [SPEAKER_00]: ridiculous.

[00:21:25] [SPEAKER_00]: And let me just say this, when it comes to this stuff,

[00:21:29] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, some of it there strategically, they're

[00:21:32] [SPEAKER_00]: essentially bringing up possible mistakes law enforcement made

[00:21:35] [SPEAKER_00]: that they're essentially giving prosecution time to deal

[00:21:40] [SPEAKER_00]: with and anticipate in preparation for trial, because instead of just holding

[00:21:43] [SPEAKER_00]: their fire and bringing it up in trial in a way that they can make the law

[00:21:47] [SPEAKER_00]: enforcement look bad in a way that would benefit them strategically.

[00:21:50] [SPEAKER_00]: They're trying to stretch points that don't really fit a Frank's motion.

[00:21:55] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, cause I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, Kevin, but a big

[00:21:58] [SPEAKER_00]: portion of their argument to boil it down to its simplest essence is

[00:22:02] [SPEAKER_00]: you didn't put odonism in the PCA and the probable cause affidavit.

[00:22:07] [SPEAKER_01]: That's a big part of it.

[00:22:08] [SPEAKER_00]: And you know what?

[00:22:09] [SPEAKER_00]: They don't have to do that.

[00:22:11] [SPEAKER_00]: They in no universe do law enforcement have to make a whole list of everyone

[00:22:17] [SPEAKER_00]: they looked into before they got to Richard Allen.

[00:22:19] [SPEAKER_00]: It's about Richard Allen.

[00:22:20] [SPEAKER_00]: It's not about any, like that's just, that's not how this works.

[00:22:24] [SPEAKER_00]: It's not how any of this works.

[00:22:26] [SPEAKER_00]: Like I, I don't even understand why they keep filing these things.

[00:22:30] [SPEAKER_00]: Do you?

[00:22:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, they did follow fourth one as well.

[00:22:34] [SPEAKER_01]: That was the, her answer to the third.

[00:22:36] [SPEAKER_01]: They also filed a fourth one, which she also responded to with an order.

[00:22:41] [SPEAKER_01]: She also denied this one without a hearing writing quote, the trial

[00:22:46] [SPEAKER_01]: court is obligated to conduct a Frank's hearing only if the defendant

[00:22:50] [SPEAKER_01]: makes a preliminary showing that the affiant knowingly or intentionally,

[00:22:55] [SPEAKER_01]: or with reckless disregard for the truth included a false statement

[00:22:59] [SPEAKER_01]: in the search warrant affidavit.

[00:23:00] [SPEAKER_01]: And that the allegedly false statement was necessary

[00:23:03] [SPEAKER_01]: to a finding of probable cause.

[00:23:04] [SPEAKER_01]: The defense has not made such a preliminary showing and therefore

[00:23:08] [SPEAKER_01]: is not entitled to a Frank's hearing end quote.

[00:23:11] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:23:12] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I'm not, I'm not surprised by any of those.

[00:23:15] [SPEAKER_00]: So they're also incredibly repetitive filings, which is not, I think

[00:23:19] [SPEAKER_00]: traditionally looked upon favorably by the trial court.

[00:23:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[00:23:24] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, if you keep it, you know, if you keep it like, it's

[00:23:26] [SPEAKER_00]: like the kid keeps asking their parents to pull over and get

[00:23:29] [SPEAKER_00]: taken to McDonald's.

[00:23:30] [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe that was a reasonable request on round one by round four.

[00:23:34] [SPEAKER_00]: People are getting irritated and that's not, that's, it's

[00:23:39] [SPEAKER_00]: just not effective.

[00:23:42] [SPEAKER_00]: I I'm, I'm of the belief, you know, if you can try something, try it.

[00:23:44] [SPEAKER_00]: If you're a defense attorney in this case, but if it doesn't work,

[00:23:48] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't really understand continuously going down that route.

[00:23:52] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.

[00:23:54] [SPEAKER_00]: I guess then you can say that everyone's biased against you.

[00:23:58] [SPEAKER_01]: The defense also made a filing today, the defendant's

[00:24:03] [SPEAKER_01]: supplemental submission regarding state's motion in lemonade.

[00:24:07] [SPEAKER_01]: So the motion in lemonade was the state's motion saying there are

[00:24:11] [SPEAKER_01]: certain things we feel should not be brought up in trial.

[00:24:14] [SPEAKER_01]: And this was included, but not limited to old NISM and then some of

[00:24:20] [SPEAKER_01]: the other suspects or alleged suspects that the defense has brought forward

[00:24:25] [SPEAKER_01]: such as Brad Holder, Patrick Westfall, and names like Kagan

[00:24:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Klein and Ron Logan.

[00:24:32] [SPEAKER_01]: So the state was saying there's no connection between old NISM and the

[00:24:37] [SPEAKER_01]: crime.

[00:24:37] [SPEAKER_01]: There's no connection between Brad Holder in the crime.

[00:24:41] [SPEAKER_01]: There's no connection between Kagan Klein and the crime.

[00:24:43] [SPEAKER_01]: So therefore it would be a waste of time to include these in the trial

[00:24:48] [SPEAKER_01]: unless the defense is able to make a showing in a hearing that there is a

[00:24:55] [SPEAKER_01]: solid connection between these topics or these people and the crime.

[00:25:00] [SPEAKER_01]: And that was one of the topics of the hearing that was held recently.

[00:25:04] [SPEAKER_01]: So in this filing, basically they want to add supplemental information to

[00:25:11] [SPEAKER_01]: that and the supplemental information they are adding to that is a

[00:25:16] [SPEAKER_01]: transcript from a November 22nd, 2022 hearing and a couple of

[00:25:21] [SPEAKER_01]: communications from investigators in this case, Jerry Holman and

[00:25:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Steve Mullen.

[00:25:26] [SPEAKER_01]: And to boil it down, what was said in that hearing and what was said in those

[00:25:34] [SPEAKER_01]: communications is essentially that at this time, which is about a month or

[00:25:40] [SPEAKER_01]: so after the arrest of Richard Allen, investigators were actively pursuing

[00:25:46] [SPEAKER_01]: the possibility that someone besides Richard Allen could be involved in the

[00:25:52] [SPEAKER_01]: crime.

[00:25:52] [SPEAKER_01]: And so the defense is saying, well, since the police were investigating that

[00:25:57] [SPEAKER_01]: theory that someone else was involved, we should be able to talk about

[00:26:01] [SPEAKER_01]: someone else.

[00:26:02] [SPEAKER_01]: And there's a couple of complications here.

[00:26:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Number one, first of all, it's not news to anyone that the police and law

[00:26:13] [SPEAKER_01]: enforcement were investigating the possibility of other people besides

[00:26:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Richard Allen being involved in this crime after Richard Allen's arrest.

[00:26:24] [SPEAKER_01]: That was discussed as recently as a couple of weeks ago in that hearing.

[00:26:29] [SPEAKER_01]: They indicated that after the arrest of Richard Allen, a great deal of time

[00:26:33] [SPEAKER_01]: and resources were spent trying to see if there was a connection between

[00:26:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Richard Allen and Kagan Klein.

[00:26:40] [SPEAKER_01]: And prosecutors believe that they could not establish such a connection.

[00:26:43] [SPEAKER_01]: And furthermore, prosecutors argue that they were able to prove that

[00:26:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Kagan Klein and his father were in Peru, Indiana at the time the murders

[00:26:54] [SPEAKER_01]: were being committed.

[00:26:55] [SPEAKER_01]: But certainly shortly after the arrest of Richard Allen, they were

[00:27:00] [SPEAKER_01]: actively pursuing the possibility that Kagan Klein could be connected.

[00:27:05] [SPEAKER_01]: And so I believe when Prosecutor McClellan and when investigators

[00:27:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Mullen and Holman were talking about the possibility of another person

[00:27:14] [SPEAKER_01]: being connected, they were talking about the possibility of Kagan Klein.

[00:27:17] [SPEAKER_01]: And they looked into it and they would argue that they didn't find

[00:27:21] [SPEAKER_01]: anything. So at most, it would seem to me that this just offers further

[00:27:31] [SPEAKER_01]: substantiation to the argument that they thought Kagan Klein was involved

[00:27:35] [SPEAKER_01]: as recently as November of 2022.

[00:27:38] [SPEAKER_01]: And so at most, this could lend some credence to the argument.

[00:27:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe let's bring Kagan Klein into the trial.

[00:27:46] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't see how it lends credibility or credence to the arguments to

[00:27:52] [SPEAKER_01]: bring, say, Brad Holder into it.

[00:27:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Because certainly by this time, investigators would argue that they

[00:27:59] [SPEAKER_01]: looked into Holder thoroughly and found that he had an alibi that

[00:28:03] [SPEAKER_01]: precluded him from being involved in the crimes.

[00:28:05] [SPEAKER_01]: So this is supporting evidence for what was already established at the

[00:28:11] [SPEAKER_01]: hearings, namely that they were looking into Kagan Klein's possible

[00:28:16] [SPEAKER_01]: connection to Richard Adlin after the arrest.

[00:28:18] [SPEAKER_00]: So let's just break this down as simple as possible.

[00:28:22] [SPEAKER_00]: So having some evidence that, again, this was actually something I

[00:28:26] [SPEAKER_00]: believe McClellan said early on, like the possibility that other people

[00:28:29] [SPEAKER_00]: were involved was discussed, that having some indications here in the

[00:28:35] [SPEAKER_00]: evidence that law enforcement and prosecutors thought that more people

[00:28:39] [SPEAKER_00]: could be involved does not get them over the hurdle of saying, here's

[00:28:43] [SPEAKER_00]: why we can talk about Odinists in particular.

[00:28:47] [SPEAKER_00]: Is that right to say?

[00:28:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[00:28:50] [SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, this seems pretty weak from that perspective, from the

[00:28:54] [SPEAKER_00]: perspective of Kagan Klein being allowed in trial, I think that's

[00:28:58] [SPEAKER_00]: reasonable because I agree with you, they were talking about Kagan Klein.

[00:29:01] [SPEAKER_00]: They were trying to make that link.

[00:29:02] [SPEAKER_00]: So that was one of the people they wanted to talk about.

[00:29:05] [SPEAKER_00]: I think they could get Kagan Klein into the trial.

[00:29:08] [SPEAKER_01]: I think they could.

[00:29:09] [SPEAKER_01]: I think they could.

[00:29:10] [SPEAKER_01]: I think that is the best argument for them is for Kagan Klein.

[00:29:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Ultimately, it doesn't matter what investigators believed in November of 2022.

[00:29:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Ultimately, what matters is what does evidence show us now in 2024 as to

[00:29:31] [SPEAKER_01]: whether or not a particular person has a connection to the crime?

[00:29:37] [SPEAKER_00]: One thing I was really struck by with the three day hearings is that I was

[00:29:41] [SPEAKER_00]: thinking, you know, I've been a long vocal skeptic of the Odinist theory.

[00:29:46] [SPEAKER_00]: There are many problems with it.

[00:29:48] [SPEAKER_00]: I've been honest with how I feel about that.

[00:29:50] [SPEAKER_00]: That being said, one kind of hold back in my mind was, okay, well that may be true,

[00:29:57] [SPEAKER_00]: but it's possible that law enforcement were too dismissive of it and didn't

[00:30:00] [SPEAKER_00]: give it a chance and that's why there's no evidence.

[00:30:04] [SPEAKER_00]: And in that case you could say, well, they didn't do this and they should

[00:30:08] [SPEAKER_00]: have, and we would have gotten more answers.

[00:30:09] [SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, okay, I can kind of see that.

[00:30:13] [SPEAKER_00]: One thing I was really struck by is that Kevin Murphy, Todd Klick

[00:30:17] [SPEAKER_00]: worked very hard on this case.

[00:30:19] [SPEAKER_00]: I was surprised that Jerry Holman even helped them interview at least one

[00:30:23] [SPEAKER_00]: of the, one of the suspects.

[00:30:25] [SPEAKER_00]: I was really struck by all that.

[00:30:27] [SPEAKER_00]: So you actually had time and resources being put into Odinism.

[00:30:30] [SPEAKER_00]: And what they essentially proved is that law enforcement worked on the

[00:30:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Odinist angle and didn't get anywhere with it.

[00:30:37] [SPEAKER_00]: So they did their jobs.

[00:30:39] [SPEAKER_00]: It's not their jobs to make Odinist work beyond, you know, any,

[00:30:44] [SPEAKER_00]: any realm of reason it's, it's to work something.

[00:30:47] [SPEAKER_00]: And then if it doesn't go anywhere, move on.

[00:30:50] [SPEAKER_00]: And so I felt if anything, the three day hearings just frankly seemed like

[00:30:57] [SPEAKER_00]: in a, in a sane world should be the death knell of Odinism as a theory

[00:31:01] [SPEAKER_00]: in this case, but I'm, you know, it's, it's remains to be seen what

[00:31:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Judge Gull, what sort of a parameter she puts on evidence in her courtroom

[00:31:09] [SPEAKER_00]: and what she will do as a result of that, but I would not be surprised

[00:31:12] [SPEAKER_00]: if either Odinism was thrown out entirely or severely limited as far

[00:31:18] [SPEAKER_00]: as what could be stated.

[00:31:20] [SPEAKER_01]: And I, I frankly was also gratified to see the law enforcement after

[00:31:26] [SPEAKER_01]: the, after the arrest of Richard Allen did not just immediately

[00:31:30] [SPEAKER_01]: abandon all other leads.

[00:31:33] [SPEAKER_01]: There is some interesting stuff around Keegan Klein, no matter what you

[00:31:37] [SPEAKER_01]: think about Keegan Klein's involvement or non-involvement in this crime.

[00:31:41] [SPEAKER_01]: There was some smoke there and I think it would have looked bad if as soon

[00:31:47] [SPEAKER_01]: as Richard Allen was arrested, they just abandoned the Keegan

[00:31:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Klein lead altogether.

[00:31:52] [SPEAKER_01]: If they did that, I think you could justifiably accuse them of having

[00:31:56] [SPEAKER_01]: tunnel vision, but they didn't do that.

[00:31:58] [SPEAKER_01]: They ran that lead down.

[00:32:00] [SPEAKER_01]: They believe they established that Keegan Klein could not

[00:32:03] [SPEAKER_01]: have committed these murders.

[00:32:06] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, this was, I mean, I think it paints a picture of

[00:32:08] [SPEAKER_00]: a comprehensive investigation.

[00:32:09] [SPEAKER_00]: I personally believe that some of the mistakes that have been highlighted

[00:32:13] [SPEAKER_00]: have been reasonable to talk about, but again, it's like giving prosecution

[00:32:18] [SPEAKER_00]: a heads up about what you're going to do.

[00:32:20] [SPEAKER_00]: They can neutralize that at trial.

[00:32:22] [SPEAKER_00]: I think a lot of these things just sort of seem like defense talking

[00:32:25] [SPEAKER_00]: out both sides of their mouth.

[00:32:27] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, on the one hand, they're, these cops are the sloppiest

[00:32:30] [SPEAKER_00]: people to ever exist and don't know what they're doing.

[00:32:32] [SPEAKER_00]: On the other hand, they're kind of implying some threatening,

[00:32:36] [SPEAKER_00]: vague Odinist conspiracy.

[00:32:38] [SPEAKER_00]: And frankly, both can't exist.

[00:32:44] [SPEAKER_00]: That's not how anything works.

[00:32:47] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm just, I don't know, I'm surprised and I will be very curious to see

[00:32:51] [SPEAKER_00]: how they address any of this.

[00:32:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:32:55] [SPEAKER_01]: And as I say, if you agree with the prosecution that Keegan Klein

[00:33:00] [SPEAKER_01]: is not involved with the crime, I still think you could make an

[00:33:06] [SPEAKER_01]: argument that the defense should have the right to bring him up in trial

[00:33:10] [SPEAKER_01]: because there is a lot of smoke there.

[00:33:14] [SPEAKER_00]: I concur.

[00:33:14] [SPEAKER_00]: I think there's smoke there.

[00:33:15] [SPEAKER_00]: I think it would be, I think it's wild that they've kind of circled

[00:33:19] [SPEAKER_00]: back to Keegan Klein after ignoring him for so long.

[00:33:22] [SPEAKER_00]: I find, I feel like that would have been the best thing to start with.

[00:33:25] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't understand how they were led down the Odinist path exactly.

[00:33:31] [SPEAKER_00]: It's certainly something that the press seems to love because it's

[00:33:35] [SPEAKER_00]: cult in the woods, but it was shocking how little they had for those hearings.

[00:33:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[00:33:42] [SPEAKER_01]: And this filing, I think they're trying to suggest that they didn't

[00:33:47] [SPEAKER_01]: know what they were doing.

[00:33:48] [SPEAKER_01]: The investigators didn't know what they were doing and they thought

[00:33:51] [SPEAKER_01]: someone else could be involved and they thought that someone else

[00:33:54] [SPEAKER_01]: could be anybody on that list.

[00:33:56] [SPEAKER_01]: But I think that if someone else they were investigating at that time

[00:33:59] [SPEAKER_01]: was pretty clearly the Klein lead.

[00:34:01] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think they ran it down to the best of their ability.

[00:34:06] [SPEAKER_01]: So to me, this filing doesn't really bring anything new to the table.

[00:34:11] [SPEAKER_00]: If Keegan Klein's phone was on in his house in Peru, Indiana, and he's

[00:34:17] [SPEAKER_00]: say messaging with people, then that it is hard to believe that then he

[00:34:24] [SPEAKER_00]: could be directly involved in the crime or even indirectly involved.

[00:34:27] [SPEAKER_00]: There's no digital evidence connecting him to Richard Allen.

[00:34:30] [SPEAKER_00]: It's very hard to believe.

[00:34:31] [SPEAKER_00]: And again, it's hard to believe that there could be a sexual predator like

[00:34:35] [SPEAKER_00]: Keegan talking with Liberty German via messages.

[00:34:40] [SPEAKER_00]: But the thing is, I think they were talking on maybe like Snapchat, but

[00:34:46] [SPEAKER_00]: one thing you have to remember if you actually dig into any unsolved case,

[00:34:49] [SPEAKER_00]: you will find that there are often a lot of very, very suspicious and

[00:34:55] [SPEAKER_00]: sketchy characters at the fringes of a case.

[00:35:00] [SPEAKER_00]: And usually they're not all involved.

[00:35:03] [SPEAKER_00]: Usually there's some people who are, and then some who it just kind

[00:35:07] [SPEAKER_00]: of happened to be that way.

[00:35:08] [SPEAKER_00]: It's a coincidence.

[00:35:09] [SPEAKER_00]: We live in a world where there are a lot of bad people out there.

[00:35:13] [SPEAKER_00]: And I understand that that can be hard to accept.

[00:35:15] [SPEAKER_00]: And I also understand that, you know, it seems like there was

[00:35:17] [SPEAKER_00]: certainly enough there to keep investigators busy for awhile, but if

[00:35:21] [SPEAKER_00]: there's nothing putting Keegan at the scene or in some level of

[00:35:26] [SPEAKER_00]: contact with Richard Allen, then I fail to see, you know, I think they

[00:35:33] [SPEAKER_00]: probably did the right thing by never charging him and not going down

[00:35:36] [SPEAKER_00]: that rabbit hole.

[00:35:37] [SPEAKER_00]: I think if you had seen people with tunnel vision, you would have

[00:35:39] [SPEAKER_00]: seen them trying to link him to Allen no matter what.

[00:35:44] [SPEAKER_00]: Like let's make this fit.

[00:35:45] [SPEAKER_01]: And I-

[00:35:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Or alternatively, you would see them immediately abandon the Keegan

[00:35:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Kline lead and focus all their attention on Richard Allen after

[00:35:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Mr. Allen was arrested.

[00:35:54] [SPEAKER_00]: Trying to close out Keegan and maybe find more to either put it to bed

[00:35:58] [SPEAKER_00]: or link them seems like the appropriate thing to do given the

[00:36:02] [SPEAKER_00]: circumstances.

[00:36:02] [SPEAKER_01]: I agree.

[00:36:03] [SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, I just don't understand why this defense team didn't go

[00:36:08] [SPEAKER_00]: with Keegan.

[00:36:08] [SPEAKER_00]: It was right there.

[00:36:10] [SPEAKER_00]: That's a perfectly respectable third party defense in my view.

[00:36:14] [SPEAKER_00]: I think it very well could make it into trial.

[00:36:17] [SPEAKER_00]: I just, I don't know why they didn't use it until kind of throwing

[00:36:22] [SPEAKER_00]: it as a secondary Hail Mary right now.

[00:36:26] [SPEAKER_01]: I wonder that myself.

[00:36:27] [SPEAKER_00]: I really wonder.

[00:36:28] [SPEAKER_00]: I think that is a very interesting question and I don't even want to

[00:36:31] [SPEAKER_00]: speculate about it, but I just, I'm very confused about that.

[00:36:35] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.

[00:36:36] [SPEAKER_00]: In terms of something we've been hearing a lot, this is a kind

[00:36:40] [SPEAKER_00]: of a question we get a lot and it's just not even from listeners.

[00:36:42] [SPEAKER_00]: It's from just sort of people where we're discussing the case with them.

[00:36:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Like people will come up to us and sometimes talk about Delphi.

[00:36:47] [SPEAKER_00]: And one question we've heard a lot is at this point, why even have a trial?

[00:36:56] [SPEAKER_00]: That's what people are saying.

[00:36:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Why even have a trial?

[00:36:58] [SPEAKER_00]: Can you explain that Kevin?

[00:37:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Why, why is it important to have a trial, even if a man has

[00:37:03] [SPEAKER_00]: confessed over 61 times?

[00:37:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Everyone has a right to his or her day in court to confront their

[00:37:12] [SPEAKER_01]: accusers.

[00:37:13] [SPEAKER_01]: It's a, it's a basic fundamental right.

[00:37:19] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's important.

[00:37:21] [SPEAKER_00]: Richard Allen, or at the very least I should say this, Richard Allen is

[00:37:25] [SPEAKER_00]: calling the shots or the really should be calling the shots about

[00:37:28] [SPEAKER_00]: what happens to him next.

[00:37:30] [SPEAKER_00]: This is up to him.

[00:37:31] [SPEAKER_00]: It should be up to him.

[00:37:32] [SPEAKER_00]: I hope that he's getting good information so he can make

[00:37:35] [SPEAKER_00]: his decisions accordingly.

[00:37:36] [SPEAKER_00]: But if he wants a trial, he's going to get a trial.

[00:37:40] [SPEAKER_00]: This is his life on the line.

[00:37:41] [SPEAKER_00]: This is his, you know, he, he's ultimately supposed to be the pilot

[00:37:48] [SPEAKER_00]: of what happens next.

[00:37:49] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's not even if a case against him is damning, even if he's

[00:37:53] [SPEAKER_00]: confessed however many times, he still has those rights.

[00:37:56] [SPEAKER_00]: He still has those liberties and he should be able to do what he wants

[00:38:00] [SPEAKER_00]: and also to be able to change his mind.

[00:38:02] [SPEAKER_00]: So if he confessed a bunch of times, cause he thought that he

[00:38:05] [SPEAKER_00]: wanted to get right with God.

[00:38:06] [SPEAKER_00]: And then he turns around and says, actually I'd want to, I want to go

[00:38:09] [SPEAKER_00]: home to my wife and mother and, you know, get out.

[00:38:13] [SPEAKER_00]: And my attorneys think I have a good chance then he, he has

[00:38:16] [SPEAKER_00]: the right to change his mind.

[00:38:18] [SPEAKER_00]: I just, where I get, where I get kind of heartburn is I just hope

[00:38:22] [SPEAKER_00]: he's getting good information so he can make the best decisions for him.

[00:38:26] [SPEAKER_00]: If you, if you imagine somebody getting sort of, uh, you know,

[00:38:30] [SPEAKER_00]: puffed up and told, you know, you're going to do it.

[00:38:33] [SPEAKER_00]: And the, uh, the realization then that perhaps reality is a lot

[00:38:39] [SPEAKER_00]: different from what you've been told can be incredibly crushing.

[00:38:41] [SPEAKER_00]: And that would be, that would not be a good situation.

[00:38:46] [SPEAKER_00]: And to be very clear, he has damaged his own case beyond anything

[00:38:52] [SPEAKER_00]: anyone could have imagined at the start of this.

[00:38:55] [SPEAKER_00]: This has gone from being a case where you had an unspent round and

[00:39:00] [SPEAKER_00]: his own word putting him at the scene to a case where he has given

[00:39:08] [SPEAKER_00]: repeatedly detailed confessions, including specific crime related

[00:39:12] [SPEAKER_00]: information that are recorded.

[00:39:16] [SPEAKER_00]: That are not just somebody saying it, here's what he said that are recorded

[00:39:19] [SPEAKER_00]: and he's expressing remorse.

[00:39:22] [SPEAKER_00]: He's expressing all of this.

[00:39:25] [SPEAKER_00]: And regardless of what they say about the mental health issues,

[00:39:28] [SPEAKER_00]: psychosis can't put information in his mind about the crime

[00:39:32] [SPEAKER_00]: that is specific to the crime scene.

[00:39:35] [SPEAKER_00]: So I don't know.

[00:39:38] [SPEAKER_00]: I, I, I will be very, it's really, everyone is like, I feel like this

[00:39:43] [SPEAKER_00]: is one of those periods where there's a lot of rumors in the Delphi online space.

[00:39:47] [SPEAKER_00]: Just be careful with what you're seeing.

[00:39:48] [SPEAKER_00]: People are antsy.

[00:39:50] [SPEAKER_00]: People are fired up after the last three hearings.

[00:39:52] [SPEAKER_00]: It was like, wow, we've learned a lot.

[00:39:54] [SPEAKER_00]: This is usually the time where rumors really start to fly.

[00:39:58] [SPEAKER_00]: Speculation really starts.

[00:40:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Everyone's going to be, oh, here's what this means.

[00:40:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Let's just be, we don't know what anything means.

[00:40:04] [SPEAKER_00]: It's all on the fly.

[00:40:06] [SPEAKER_00]: This is not a normal case in a normal case.

[00:40:08] [SPEAKER_00]: You would expect to see some things I don't necessarily expect to see here.

[00:40:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Well said.

[00:40:14] [SPEAKER_01]: And before we go, I'll just say again, if you happen to be in the Delphi area

[00:40:18] [SPEAKER_01]: on August 24th, consider going to bacon fest.

[00:40:21] [SPEAKER_01]: It sounds like a terrific event.

[00:40:23] [SPEAKER_01]: I mentioned that the former lead singer from foreigner is going to be there.

[00:40:27] [SPEAKER_01]: It should be, it sounds really fun and Delphi is a place where you can have fun.

[00:40:33] [SPEAKER_01]: It's not just the tragedy.

[00:40:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[00:40:35] [SPEAKER_00]: And I just hope that, um, you know, the families of these two

[00:40:39] [SPEAKER_00]: girls are doing okay right now.

[00:40:40] [SPEAKER_00]: I think the three day hearing was really brutal for everyone.

[00:40:44] [SPEAKER_00]: And first and foremost, for the people who loved those girls, we learned a lot

[00:40:48] [SPEAKER_00]: more information about their last moments that frankly, I will, I feel like never

[00:40:52] [SPEAKER_00]: be able to unhear.

[00:40:53] [SPEAKER_00]: And if I feel that way, then I can't imagine what it feels like to be someone

[00:40:56] [SPEAKER_00]: who knew and loved them when they were alive and to know that.

[00:40:59] [SPEAKER_00]: And I just, um, I hope, uh, hope they're doing okay.

[00:41:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for listening.

[00:41:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks so much for listening to the murder sheet.

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