The Delphi Murders: Perspectives on the Case So Far from Susan Hendricks and Aspen Conner

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Content Warning. This episode contains discussion of the murders of two girls.

[00:00:05] [SPEAKER_01]: The Delphi Murders case can be noisy, lots of clamor, recriminations, rumors. It's loud.

[00:00:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes it can be hard to pick out what's relevant and true from all of that.

[00:00:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Well today we'll be tuning out some of the white noise and hearing from two voices on this case.

[00:00:22] [SPEAKER_01]: We'll talk with them about what they've seen so far and what they expect to see in the future.

[00:00:27] [SPEAKER_02]: The first voice will be that of Susan Hendricks. She brings a world of journalistic experience to this case.

[00:00:34] [SPEAKER_02]: She's anchored for CNN and HLN and began to look in the Delphi case all the way back in 2017.

[00:00:43] [SPEAKER_02]: She even wrote an empathetic true crime book called Down the Hill, My Descent into the Double Murder in Delphi.

[00:00:51] [SPEAKER_02]: That volume centered her discussions with the families of Abby and Libby.

[00:00:56] [SPEAKER_02]: With Susan's traditional media background, she brings the savviness and groundedness that comes from that television experience

[00:01:03] [SPEAKER_02]: along with a sincere sense of empathy for the victims' families.

[00:01:08] [SPEAKER_01]: The second voice will be that of Aspen Conner. Aspen is a YouTuber. On his channel, he strives to bring respect

[00:01:16] [SPEAKER_01]: and compassion to his coverage of the Delphi case and other crimes.

[00:01:19] [SPEAKER_01]: He wants his listeners to always remember that this case is about two murdered children.

[00:01:25] [SPEAKER_01]: He went from following the Delphi case to focusing on it on his own platform.

[00:01:30] [SPEAKER_01]: He also co-hosts It's a Crimeing Shame, another channel on YouTube.

[00:01:34] [SPEAKER_02]: They will each speak to their experiences at the recent three-day hearings, their views of the case

[00:01:39] [SPEAKER_02]: and the media environment that surrounds it and their thoughts on the upcoming trial.

[00:01:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Through these conversations, we hope to illuminate what this experience has been like to cover the case

[00:01:50] [SPEAKER_01]: and what those on the ground expect to happen next.

[00:01:54] [SPEAKER_01]: My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist.

[00:01:57] [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

[00:02:00] [SPEAKER_02]: And this is The Murder Sheet.

[00:02:01] [SPEAKER_02]: We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases.

[00:02:08] [SPEAKER_02]: We're The Murder Sheet.

[00:02:09] [SPEAKER_01]: And this is The Delphi Murders.

[00:02:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Perspectives on the case so far with Susan Hendricks and Aspen Connor.

[00:03:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Here's Susan Hendricks.

[00:03:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Susan, thank you so much for joining us.

[00:03:06] [SPEAKER_01]: We're super excited to talk to you for the show.

[00:03:09] [SPEAKER_01]: And as a reminder for everyone, Susan Hendricks has a wonderful book on the Delphi case.

[00:03:14] [SPEAKER_01]: It's one of the most empathetic, victim-centric pieces.

[00:03:19] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's called Down the Hill, and you should absolutely read it if you haven't already.

[00:03:22] [SPEAKER_01]: But Susan, thank you so much for joining us today.

[00:03:25] [SPEAKER_00]: It's so great to be with you both.

[00:03:27] [SPEAKER_00]: I feel like I know you so much more now after that three-day hearing together.

[00:03:33] [SPEAKER_01]: We definitely all went through it together.

[00:03:36] [SPEAKER_01]: And Susan, we were so appreciative that you were there to kind of bear witness to everything.

[00:03:41] [SPEAKER_01]: It's definitely a different thing going to the hearings versus hearing about them afterwards.

[00:03:47] [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm curious, you know, given that you were there, you were there in line with us early in the morning every day.

[00:03:55] [SPEAKER_01]: What was that experience like for you?

[00:03:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, Ania, definitely is an experience because of the fact that they don't have press passes.

[00:04:03] [SPEAKER_00]: And I remember texting you like, how do I get a press pass?

[00:04:06] [SPEAKER_00]: You're like, they don't give them out.

[00:04:08] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm so grateful that I had the advice from both of you to get there very early because that is true.

[00:04:14] [SPEAKER_00]: People start to line up and you did say it's hit or miss in terms of how many people show up and how long the line is, but you want to be there early.

[00:04:22] [SPEAKER_00]: So by the time the doors open to the courtroom, the courthouse, and you're walking in, you have already been there five hours and you get to know.

[00:04:32] [SPEAKER_00]: The upside of this is I got to know so many great people in the line who are dedicated to this case, who are there to support the families.

[00:04:39] [SPEAKER_00]: So it's a whole experience outside of the courtroom before you even walk in.

[00:04:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.

[00:04:47] [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm wondering if you can talk more because, I mean, I think sometimes Kevin and I are pretty negative about a lot of the online community, especially around Delphi.

[00:04:55] [SPEAKER_01]: And I do stand by that.

[00:04:57] [SPEAKER_01]: I think there's a lot of problems with it.

[00:04:59] [SPEAKER_01]: But there are, but there's a good side.

[00:05:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:05:01] [SPEAKER_01]: There is a good side.

[00:05:02] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think you got to interact with some of that good side.

[00:05:05] [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm wondering if you can sort of speak to that.

[00:05:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Who are these people that are so dedicated to this case?

[00:05:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, Sarah, who is the first in line, I think all three days runs the Facebook page and she was just so wonderful.

[00:05:19] [SPEAKER_00]: And you could tell by her interaction with Becky and with Mike that she's dedicated to it.

[00:05:24] [SPEAKER_00]: She knows them so well.

[00:05:26] [SPEAKER_00]: She was even helping me with a ride back to my hotel.

[00:05:30] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, just the sweetest, most kind person who really cares.

[00:05:34] [SPEAKER_00]: So she was there.

[00:05:35] [SPEAKER_00]: Then another woman who goes by the name of Jinx, she was there.

[00:05:39] [SPEAKER_00]: So it's names that were familiar to me, but to put a face to them and they would approach me and Aspen, I believe is one of the guys.

[00:05:48] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's just they approached me and the names kind of clicked for me.

[00:05:53] [SPEAKER_00]: And I was putting two and two together in terms of what their format was.

[00:05:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Some of them having YouTube channels, podcasts or some just there to support the family.

[00:06:01] [SPEAKER_00]: And again, I said Sarah runs the Facebook page.

[00:06:04] [SPEAKER_00]: So it's the people that seem to be in the front of the line, but you're right.

[00:06:08] [SPEAKER_00]: There's so much negativity surrounding this case.

[00:06:12] [SPEAKER_00]: And I wonder if that's how it's going to be in the future with all cases.

[00:06:15] [SPEAKER_00]: But there certainly is an outlet for people who want the clicks, who want the negativity.

[00:06:21] [SPEAKER_00]: They lead with that back in the day, old school reporting.

[00:06:24] [SPEAKER_00]: If it bleeds, it leads in terms of TV reporting.

[00:06:26] [SPEAKER_00]: So if the more dramatic, better at times for some of these content creators.

[00:06:32] [SPEAKER_00]: But my experience with you guys and with people there who are really dedicated, I say overall was a positive one.

[00:06:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.

[00:06:41] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's so well said.

[00:06:42] [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm just curious with your media background, we're in a weird place where we have this sort of intersection of new media and also the traditional outlets.

[00:06:53] [SPEAKER_01]: But like, how have things changed to this point in time where this is kind of an odd moment where you can have YouTubers or sort of new creators with a lot of power and that can be not such a good thing sometimes.

[00:07:07] [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm just, can you speak to that?

[00:07:08] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, and I forgot a Frank Meister of course.

[00:07:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah.

[00:07:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Times have certainly changed.

[00:07:14] [SPEAKER_00]: Usually it would be the mainstream quote unquote media in terms of when I was in local news, the local news outlets there.

[00:07:23] [SPEAKER_00]: So I think this is a good thing because it broadens the spectrum in terms of reporting.

[00:07:28] [SPEAKER_00]: You don't have to work for a local news outlet to want to report the story and be there and experience it.

[00:07:34] [SPEAKER_00]: So I think it is good, but it is definitely a changing of the guard if you will in terms of who's interested in going and the outlets that we get to choose from.

[00:07:44] [SPEAKER_00]: That can also be a bad thing because you tend to click on what you believe, whether this is true crime, whether it's politics and they feed you what you already believe.

[00:07:56] [SPEAKER_00]: So if you believe, let's say that Richard Allen is innocent and innocent till proven guilty, we don't know all of the evidence.

[00:08:06] [SPEAKER_00]: If you believe something like that then everything that you click on or listen to will validate that and vice versa.

[00:08:12] [SPEAKER_00]: That's why I'm open to listen to various outlets.

[00:08:17] [SPEAKER_00]: If the negativity isn't there meaning if the claims aren't so outrageous and against family members, that's a whole different thing.

[00:08:25] [SPEAKER_00]: But I believe overall in general that it's a good thing that people know who you are and approach you both because of the good work that you've done.

[00:08:35] [SPEAKER_00]: So I think back in the day with that have been possible before podcasting, probably not unless you both work for the same station.

[00:08:42] [SPEAKER_00]: So I think I found and especially after this three-day hearing, it changed my tune in terms of in a positive way.

[00:08:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think it's been really hard for me to think about it because it is good for us as new media creators.

[00:09:01] [SPEAKER_01]: We could not have broken into this case to the degree that we have in the 90s or whatever.

[00:09:08] [SPEAKER_00]: Back in the 90s. But they shouldn't lump everyone together in my eyes obviously.

[00:09:14] [SPEAKER_00]: Because of your background, Kevin being an attorney here, a journalist, it's very different than people who are just spewing lies.

[00:09:20] [SPEAKER_00]: So there are different ends of the spectrum.

[00:09:24] [SPEAKER_01]: But I will say, I will say, I feel like maybe even if it's good for us, it's mixed overall.

[00:09:30] [SPEAKER_01]: It really depends on the caliber of people that are attracted to a case where if you have people who are well-meaning coming into it, trying to get to the truth.

[00:09:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe even if they're untrained, it's not necessarily such a toxic environment.

[00:09:45] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think there are definitely people who fit that bill in Delphi, absolutely 100% where they're trying and they're doing a good job and they're ultimately well-intentioned.

[00:09:57] [SPEAKER_01]: And then you do have the flip side, which is frankly a disaster where as you said, the negativity, the attacks on people, the ad hominems, the targeting victims' families.

[00:10:08] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's the really ugly side that I'm...

[00:10:10] [SPEAKER_00]: I think that has to be corrected because it is the Wild Wild West out there in terms of what people are allowed to say and they lead with maliciousness.

[00:10:19] [SPEAKER_00]: And if it works, if it gets the clicks, I don't even want to repeat some of the things that I've seen and I've read.

[00:10:24] [SPEAKER_00]: It's gross about the family member.

[00:10:27] [SPEAKER_00]: So I think that something should happen or will happen in terms of family lawsuits.

[00:10:35] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know what the answer is, but I think it has to be corrected somehow.

[00:10:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think the thing we can all do today, the thing that all consumers can do today is just don't give it any air.

[00:10:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Don't even look at it.

[00:10:48] [SPEAKER_00]: That's a good point.

[00:10:49] [SPEAKER_01]: These people are after attention and if you starve them of that then they have to change their tune and that's...

[00:10:55] [SPEAKER_01]: It's hard to do because you want to check on the dumpster fires, but just let them out.

[00:11:02] [SPEAKER_00]: I like that analogy.

[00:11:04] [SPEAKER_00]: How is it different for you guys this three-day hearing?

[00:11:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Because I know you've been to several of them.

[00:11:10] [SPEAKER_00]: Was this different to you in terms of, of course, the length of it, the amount of time that was spent?

[00:11:16] [SPEAKER_00]: It felt like a mini-trial to me.

[00:11:18] [SPEAKER_01]: It really did, Susan.

[00:11:19] [SPEAKER_01]: And I'll say this.

[00:11:20] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, Kevin might not think differently, but we were...

[00:11:23] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I was dreading it.

[00:11:24] [SPEAKER_01]: I was really like, this is going to be very difficult and we're going to have to get through it.

[00:11:28] [SPEAKER_01]: And in a way that was true, but in another way, it was very nice spending time with you.

[00:11:32] [SPEAKER_01]: I felt like we got to spend more time with some of the very nice people in line.

[00:11:36] [SPEAKER_01]: I actually felt it wasn't as emotionally draining that aspect of it, the logistics as I thought it was going to be.

[00:11:43] [SPEAKER_01]: But then the court side was actually a lot more draining than I did not realize we were going to get so many details.

[00:11:52] [SPEAKER_01]: That was so horrifying.

[00:11:55] [SPEAKER_01]: I thought we'd get a lot about odinism.

[00:11:58] [SPEAKER_01]: I didn't necessarily think we were going to get into the deaths of the girls as much.

[00:12:03] [SPEAKER_01]: So I wasn't...

[00:12:04] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think I was fully braced for that and that was really shooing and difficult.

[00:12:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Kevin, you might have some different thoughts.

[00:12:11] [SPEAKER_02]: I would agree with that.

[00:12:12] [SPEAKER_02]: The level of detail was upsetting.

[00:12:16] [SPEAKER_02]: It is...

[00:12:16] [SPEAKER_02]: It could be re-invigorating to be around some people who care so much about the case.

[00:12:21] [SPEAKER_02]: You mentioned a lot of them there was also...

[00:12:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Turbo was there.

[00:12:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Turbo, frogs.

[00:12:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you know.

[00:12:27] [SPEAKER_01]: That level.

[00:12:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Laura, that makes me wonder what is it about this case that you think inspires people to feel such a connection to it?

[00:12:38] [SPEAKER_02]: You wrote a book about it.

[00:12:40] [SPEAKER_02]: You came across the country to attend these hearings.

[00:12:42] [SPEAKER_02]: We're there all the time.

[00:12:44] [SPEAKER_02]: What is it about this case that gets to all of us?

[00:12:47] [SPEAKER_00]: I think because of the age of the girls and we could all put ourselves either in their shoes or remembering how you grew up

[00:12:55] [SPEAKER_00]: or maybe a family member, a niece, a cousin.

[00:12:59] [SPEAKER_00]: And it was innocence taken away and robbed from Delphi from that small town.

[00:13:05] [SPEAKER_00]: So it was the shock of this in the middle of the day.

[00:13:09] [SPEAKER_00]: And it was also to me, the bravery of the girls and the recording and also how much they had.

[00:13:16] [SPEAKER_00]: I remember Superintendent Doug Carter saying, I've never had this much evidence ever.

[00:13:21] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, when they believed Fridge Guy was the guy and then they had the voice and the way he walked, although we only saw a couple steps

[00:13:30] [SPEAKER_00]: and he would reiterate someone knows that gate.

[00:13:33] [SPEAKER_00]: Someone knows who this is.

[00:13:35] [SPEAKER_00]: And I believe they were banking on that coming in a whole lot sooner that someone would say, oh, that's my brother or cousin because it's such a small town.

[00:13:42] [SPEAKER_00]: And that call never came.

[00:13:44] [SPEAKER_00]: So that was intriguing too.

[00:13:46] [SPEAKER_00]: The investigation, I believe.

[00:13:48] [SPEAKER_00]: But what drew me in and I was assigned this case now it's so much more to me than a case, but I was assigned this story, if you will, from CNN and sent there several times in HLN.

[00:14:01] [SPEAKER_00]: And then just it became so much more to me getting to know the families because in the news cycle, as you may know, the next day happens and then the next day and the next news cycle.

[00:14:11] [SPEAKER_00]: And I when I was out in the community and local news too, in California people would ask me whatever happened to that one guy that you covered.

[00:14:20] [SPEAKER_00]: He owned a store. His store was robbed. How's he doing now? And we never did follow ups.

[00:14:25] [SPEAKER_00]: So this long form and allowing me to be there and take my time and do specials and really get to know the families was very different for me.

[00:14:33] [SPEAKER_00]: So emotionally I became connected and I just like the family members.

[00:14:38] [SPEAKER_00]: I just really, really like Becky and all of them and Kelsey and Mike and you name it.

[00:14:45] [SPEAKER_00]: So it's an Eric and Diane who were there.

[00:14:48] [SPEAKER_00]: You just get to know them on a different level and you see them going through the most excruciating time in their lives.

[00:14:54] [SPEAKER_00]: And you mentioned emotionally draining.

[00:14:57] [SPEAKER_00]: I felt that the final day, I believe it was 12, 13 hours.

[00:15:01] [SPEAKER_00]: I was emotionally drained and I'm sure that they were so much more so the family members to hear all of that.

[00:15:08] [SPEAKER_00]: But for us to be there and for us to hear it and see it, it was completely different than let's say, of course, covering it from a set at CNN.

[00:15:16] [SPEAKER_00]: It's so different even if there were cameras in the courtroom, it's very different.

[00:15:19] [SPEAKER_00]: You would separate yourself through the lens and you're not really there and you don't see the facial expressions of everyone involved in that courtroom.

[00:15:28] [SPEAKER_00]: So it was very different than I expected.

[00:15:32] [SPEAKER_00]: I didn't expect like you both to hear all of the details we heard.

[00:15:36] [SPEAKER_00]: But I thought that the attorneys did a good job on both sides depending on who the witness was.

[00:15:45] [SPEAKER_00]: And we had a front row seat to that seeing maybe how they will move forward during the trial.

[00:15:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.

[00:15:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's one thing to read about and it's another thing to hear a whole gallery of people.

[00:16:00] [SPEAKER_01]: I heard some people crying when they were talking about the blood evidence.

[00:16:04] [SPEAKER_01]: I know I was crying and if I was then I can't imagine what those family members are going through.

[00:16:10] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know how the families do it.

[00:16:11] [SPEAKER_02]: One thing that is obvious, they go to every single one of these hearings.

[00:16:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Even the less significant hearings, even the hearings that just take a few minutes,

[00:16:22] [SPEAKER_02]: they always make the time to rearrange their schedules so they can get off work,

[00:16:28] [SPEAKER_02]: maybe rearrange doctors appointments, whatever it takes.

[00:16:31] [SPEAKER_02]: They were always there.

[00:16:32] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know how they do it.

[00:16:34] [SPEAKER_02]: It must be very, very different.

[00:16:35] [SPEAKER_00]: And you realize and now looking back and Judge Gold's ruling about jury selection in a different county

[00:16:42] [SPEAKER_00]: and then coming back to Carroll County makes sense because you don't want to put the families out

[00:16:47] [SPEAKER_00]: in terms of transportation because it's an all day thing.

[00:16:51] [SPEAKER_00]: And they have jobs but they swore that they would be there.

[00:16:54] [SPEAKER_00]: I remember Becky saying she'll be there every day whenever she can be.

[00:16:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Meaning whenever there is a hearing, significant or not.

[00:17:02] [SPEAKER_01]: I know at one point during the hearings, I think you and I locked eyes and I may have mouthed something to the effect of what the F.

[00:17:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[00:17:10] [SPEAKER_01]: And I turned back.

[00:17:11] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, oh my God.

[00:17:14] [SPEAKER_01]: This is when Dr. Perlmutter was speaking.

[00:17:16] [SPEAKER_01]: So I just I just was really going through it at that moment because I just thought it was the most surreal thing I've ever seen.

[00:17:21] [SPEAKER_01]: But I'm wondering were there any standout moments for you at these hearings where you were truly like this is really not what I expected

[00:17:29] [SPEAKER_01]: or this is wild in some way or just sort of seems like you'll.

[00:17:33] [SPEAKER_00]: There were so many.

[00:17:34] [SPEAKER_00]: But with the witnesses and I was surprised was a day three because they're all kind of blending together where it was Baldwin who it felt like a little bit like an opening statement but was telling the judge everything that he would be saying.

[00:17:48] [SPEAKER_00]: So that was an hour long.

[00:17:50] [SPEAKER_00]: And then some of the witnesses, the odinist or odinism expert.

[00:17:55] [SPEAKER_00]: Sorry.

[00:17:56] [SPEAKER_00]: She was on the stand for a very long time.

[00:17:58] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, so it just would drag on and on and on.

[00:18:02] [SPEAKER_00]: And you saw I thought McLean Dennis cross examination was excellent.

[00:18:07] [SPEAKER_00]: You saw where this was going and it felt almost fringe worthy at times.

[00:18:11] [SPEAKER_00]: That was surprising to me that she said and she admitted to not knowing all of the evidence or but in her mind it was textbook.

[00:18:21] [SPEAKER_00]: So it was odd to hear from her for such a long period of time.

[00:18:25] [SPEAKER_00]: But I think the most shocking to me besides Cisarro at the very end, the last person on the stand talking about the blood evidence that shocking in such a heartbreaking way.

[00:18:36] [SPEAKER_00]: But was shocking was the prison psychologist to me and how that was handled by Rosie.

[00:18:43] [SPEAKER_00]: So she's on the stand.

[00:18:45] [SPEAKER_00]: She's being questioned.

[00:18:46] [SPEAKER_00]: He's being very nice to her matter of fact saying, well, didn't you tell me that at the deposition?

[00:18:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Just forceful, but you feel like, OK, this is his witness.

[00:18:58] [SPEAKER_00]: Then it turns completely and you realize, oh my gosh, it was you.

[00:19:06] [SPEAKER_00]: He went into so you're a fan of true crime.

[00:19:08] [SPEAKER_00]: And that was the turning point.

[00:19:10] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh no, you listen to this podcast, you knew about this case.

[00:19:14] [SPEAKER_00]: You did.

[00:19:14] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm thinking, OK, so he this isn't his witness.

[00:19:17] [SPEAKER_00]: And sure enough, I feel like it was done because he doesn't want the alleged confessions admissible from her.

[00:19:26] [SPEAKER_00]: I would assume that that was tough to watch for a look again.

[00:19:30] [SPEAKER_00]: I think an hour plus she was on maybe even more.

[00:19:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, these witnesses definitely went through it in terms of how long many of them were up there.

[00:19:38] [SPEAKER_01]: And I completely agree.

[00:19:40] [SPEAKER_01]: I think Rosie definitely wanted to discredit the confession she allegedly heard from Alan or confessions.

[00:19:46] [SPEAKER_01]: It's not really clear.

[00:19:48] [SPEAKER_01]: But he also definitely needs her to sort of paint a picture of Alan's life in prison and kind of give a sense of what he might have been going through.

[00:19:57] [SPEAKER_01]: So I noticed that same thing.

[00:19:59] [SPEAKER_01]: It was like a seesaw, like suddenly wait, whoa, this is a totally different.

[00:20:03] [SPEAKER_01]: I did good at both actually.

[00:20:05] [SPEAKER_01]: I just it just seemed like I don't know if you can do both.

[00:20:09] [SPEAKER_00]: I saw I know exactly.

[00:20:11] [SPEAKER_00]: I was listening to one of your shows where you said, you know, if Detective Holman would have been there because they couldn't find him.

[00:20:19] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not sure where he specifically was.

[00:20:21] [SPEAKER_00]: He wasn't that we would have made lunch because Baldwin seemed frustrated and said, well, he's not around.

[00:20:26] [SPEAKER_00]: So we'll start with.

[00:20:28] [SPEAKER_00]: And it was the expert on Odinus.

[00:20:31] [SPEAKER_00]: So it was just a turning point.

[00:20:34] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's like buckle your seatbelts because she's going to be on here for a very long time.

[00:20:38] [SPEAKER_00]: I had a question for you both.

[00:20:40] [SPEAKER_00]: Do you think that Cicero was the final witness intentionally so the judge would have that in her mind?

[00:20:46] [SPEAKER_00]: Or is it no rhyme or reason?

[00:20:48] [SPEAKER_00]: Is it scheduling where they have?

[00:20:50] [SPEAKER_00]: I wonder.

[00:20:51] [SPEAKER_02]: I think Cicero was intentionally the final witness.

[00:20:55] [SPEAKER_02]: I think Nick McCleland is what I've seen from him and other hearings.

[00:21:00] [SPEAKER_02]: What I've read about him in some other cases, he's very good at arranging a trial, arranging witnesses to get the maximum effect.

[00:21:08] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think that was very intentional, not just for the judge or for everyone in the courtroom to go out of that courtroom with those last haunting images in mind that Cicero described.

[00:21:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Of course, we're the blood expert.

[00:21:22] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's interesting because it mirrored the previous day with Brian Harshman being the detective who spoke last.

[00:21:30] [SPEAKER_01]: And I believe he spoke last, right?

[00:21:32] [SPEAKER_01]: So he spoke last and that was again the bombshell we were all waiting for.

[00:21:36] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's interesting, I know some media because they were being pressured by their producers had to leave and get the live set up.

[00:21:46] [SPEAKER_01]: That's not their fault.

[00:21:47] [SPEAKER_01]: They were like that's their job.

[00:21:48] [SPEAKER_01]: But some people missed it.

[00:21:50] [SPEAKER_01]: And it was like that's where we learned 61 over 61 confessions, just this wave of incriminating statements and confessions from Richard Allen.

[00:22:01] [SPEAKER_01]: It seemed like the most dramatic moments often came at the end of those days.

[00:22:05] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, because there's lulls.

[00:22:07] [SPEAKER_00]: I know this from covering the KC Anthony trial from the set in Jodi area.

[00:22:11] [SPEAKER_00]: So there's lulls in terms of what witnesses this and is this a good time to take a break?

[00:22:16] [SPEAKER_00]: So there are lulls and there was definitely not a lull at the end of the day.

[00:22:20] [SPEAKER_00]: You're right.

[00:22:21] [SPEAKER_00]: So if you're in local news and you're expected to do a live shot at five and six, you got to leave and they're not going to let you in out, in out.

[00:22:27] [SPEAKER_00]: So I know the people who did leave you heard what was most shocking to me on day two with the final witness was that he spoke about motive.

[00:22:36] [SPEAKER_00]: And then I was just sitting there thinking, well, what is it?

[00:22:40] [SPEAKER_00]: And there's never if it is him, if he is guilty, there's never a reason that we go, oh, that makes sense.

[00:22:45] [SPEAKER_00]: But I was just curious to hear more and I'm sure they're saving that for trial.

[00:22:48] [SPEAKER_00]: But that was shocking too.

[00:22:50] [SPEAKER_00]: And I thought the prosecuting attorneys, not Stacy, Deena, not Nick.

[00:22:55] [SPEAKER_00]: James and Charles?

[00:22:56] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, did a wonderful job with Cesaro.

[00:22:59] [SPEAKER_00]: Very calm, not off-putting considering the topics at hand, meaning we really got to hear based on the blood evidence, Libby's final moments or how she was positioned.

[00:23:12] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm sitting next to Becky and Kelsey and it was so hard to sit next to them and to look over because that is excruciating.

[00:23:21] [SPEAKER_00]: And Kelsey posted the next day, like it's even worse than I thought.

[00:23:26] [SPEAKER_00]: Just posting pictures of her sister and saying I'm here no matter what.

[00:23:30] [SPEAKER_00]: And it was just heartbreaking to hear in court and then to understand or try to understand we never will what they continue to go through.

[00:23:40] [SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.

[00:23:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it was difficult for us to hear.

[00:23:43] [SPEAKER_02]: We never knew and loved these girls as the family.

[00:23:46] [SPEAKER_02]: They can't imagine how agonizing it was.

[00:23:50] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm curious in terms of, you know, you were there in the courtroom and that sort of experience, you know, you're around the family members but you're also actually seeing the defendant here, Richard Allen.

[00:24:02] [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm curious what was that experience like?

[00:24:04] [SPEAKER_01]: How did he strike you was, you know, in terms of his like sort of demeanor and actions during these hearings?

[00:24:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I've seen him of course in various shots being led in and out of different courtrooms that I haven't attended those hearings.

[00:24:20] [SPEAKER_00]: But to see that person in person it's very different and eerie because of he looked back at Tara Libby's aunt.

[00:24:31] [SPEAKER_00]: This is the first day as soon as he walks out and it was jarring for me.

[00:24:35] [SPEAKER_00]: And I can see someone looking around but to stare at Tara and then look me in the eyes and the gaze didn't leave.

[00:24:44] [SPEAKER_00]: He just kept staring at us throughout the hearing that I even said under my breath, what's happening?

[00:24:49] [SPEAKER_00]: And she said, oh, this happens at every hearing.

[00:24:51] [SPEAKER_00]: So I was like, this has got to be strange.

[00:24:55] [SPEAKER_00]: I've never seen this in any other case that I've covered while the attorneys were trying it.

[00:24:59] [SPEAKER_00]: They would usually tell the person who's in custody is being charged.

[00:25:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Hey, looks right ahead. You know, they go through that with their client.

[00:25:06] [SPEAKER_00]: But I don't know if they did go through it with him and he didn't listen.

[00:25:10] [SPEAKER_00]: Day two was less though.

[00:25:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Day two was less and I really feel like someone spoke to him but the first day was very jarring and I had a physical reaction to it.

[00:25:19] [SPEAKER_00]: Like just a weird feeling in my chest.

[00:25:23] [SPEAKER_00]: And you do think because I believe he is the man on the bridge.

[00:25:26] [SPEAKER_00]: You do think what were the girls final moments?

[00:25:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Is that the guy that we've been talking about for six plus years?

[00:25:33] [SPEAKER_00]: That's him.

[00:25:34] [SPEAKER_00]: It was just surreal for me to see him in person and wonder how could this happen?

[00:25:38] [SPEAKER_00]: Why did this happen?

[00:25:40] [SPEAKER_00]: And we rarely get the answer to why.

[00:25:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I'm a big believer in not reading too much into someone's body language.

[00:25:49] [SPEAKER_01]: And the reason for that is like there's things like neurodivergence or mental health issues.

[00:25:53] [SPEAKER_01]: And so you never know.

[00:25:55] [SPEAKER_01]: And I always say that, you know, I have a resting panicked face.

[00:25:58] [SPEAKER_01]: So if you were just looking at my body language like this woman's about to freak out in it.

[00:26:02] [SPEAKER_01]: No, I'm just, that's just how I look.

[00:26:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Unfortunately, but the thing is I found that behavior quite off putting to be blunt.

[00:26:11] [SPEAKER_01]: And when I mean I at one point he was looking at our row at one point.

[00:26:15] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean we locked eyes.

[00:26:16] [SPEAKER_01]: I sort of expected, you know, kind of the typical thing where it's like, and then you kind of keep.

[00:26:21] [SPEAKER_01]: But like he's like staring me down.

[00:26:24] [SPEAKER_01]: I know other people had that experience too.

[00:26:27] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's just, it's very off putting and the thing that came to my mind was like, is this kind of empty, slightly angry looking glare.

[00:26:37] [SPEAKER_01]: What the girls saw.

[00:26:39] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's something that you would expect that the lawyers would tell their client.

[00:26:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Stop doing this if you want to look at your family.

[00:26:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Go ahead.

[00:26:48] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't understand why he said, but don't be basically trying to stare down the victims families and everybody else in the courtroom.

[00:26:55] [SPEAKER_01]: It's just it's very off putting and I don't.

[00:26:59] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't understand why it keeps happening.

[00:27:01] [SPEAKER_01]: But as you said, I'm sure there have been conversations because that's just not something you typically see.

[00:27:07] [SPEAKER_00]: That's a good point because of Brian Cober we've seen in the hearings that he has had whoever is operating the hammer.

[00:27:14] [SPEAKER_00]: If it's a cold camera, but the judge is saying stop zooming into his facial expressions because I could see that people reading too much into this.

[00:27:22] [SPEAKER_00]: But a blatant stare it's different as you saw on.

[00:27:26] [SPEAKER_00]: It's just like it's hard to explain unless you see it and that's a great way to describe it as empty.

[00:27:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Like it was just off putting.

[00:27:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's it's creepy.

[00:27:36] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean it's creepy.

[00:27:36] [SPEAKER_01]: I'll just say it's creepy and I think you're absolutely right.

[00:27:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Like everyone deciphering somebody's whole life from a tick tock video where you're just looking at a brief expression.

[00:27:44] [SPEAKER_01]: One thing, but it's another thing to be kind of continuously doing this behavior.

[00:27:48] [SPEAKER_01]: It's not a one off incident where somebody gets the wrong idea is a consistent behavior that happens again and again.

[00:27:57] [SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, it's something that we've seen for a while and it's just kind of this strange very wide-eyed sort of eyes bugging out.

[00:28:06] [SPEAKER_01]: It's a thing that you do see.

[00:28:08] [SPEAKER_00]: And day one I think he was looking up at the ceiling a lot and turning his head a lot.

[00:28:12] [SPEAKER_00]: And I thought that was very strange behavior.

[00:28:14] [SPEAKER_00]: And of course we're sitting there behind him and you could see him directly from where I was sitting and then his wife and mother were in the front row.

[00:28:23] [SPEAKER_00]: And the wife seeming of course very upset throughout and the mom just sitting next to her.

[00:28:28] [SPEAKER_00]: So it's interesting to look around and see how everyone else is acting at different times during the trial.

[00:28:36] [SPEAKER_00]: Did you notice him reacting any particular way with any witness more so than others?

[00:28:41] [SPEAKER_00]: I thought he had some connection.

[00:28:43] [SPEAKER_00]: I could tell by the way he was looking with the prison psychologist, obviously.

[00:28:48] [SPEAKER_01]: No, I think that's I think that's apt.

[00:28:50] [SPEAKER_01]: I felt like we were more of in terms of we could see where he was looking when he looked back and then because we were in the row behind him.

[00:28:58] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh yeah.

[00:28:59] [SPEAKER_01]: I feel like we've noticed when he was most fidgety versus when he was calmer and his kind of you know, it was more still.

[00:29:06] [SPEAKER_01]: And so I felt he was the most fidgety when Cicero was testifying about how the girls actually died that he that seemed to bother him in my opinion.

[00:29:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Or at the very least it sparked a lot of agitated moving and kind of shifting.

[00:29:24] [SPEAKER_01]: And so I felt that may have been a bad time for him compared to some of the other ones he seemed most calm when they were talking about organism, when they were talking about here are these other guys who did it.

[00:29:36] [SPEAKER_01]: So I think that and I don't read too much into that because I think it was hard for everyone to hear the blood evidence.

[00:29:43] [SPEAKER_01]: But I did. I did note that there was a range in terms of how he seemed to be reacting to some of this.

[00:29:49] [SPEAKER_00]: And that was so telling to me that his wife and mother were not there for Cicero.

[00:29:54] [SPEAKER_00]: Again, that's the expert on blood evidence at the scene.

[00:29:58] [SPEAKER_00]: And I remember hearing the detective who was listening to his calls from prison saying that that was a big fear that I believe it was March of 2023 where he started to find God based on the calls and his biggest fear was that his wife and mother's family would see the crime scene photos

[00:30:17] [SPEAKER_00]: and they he wouldn't end up in heaven with them.

[00:30:21] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm paraphrasing here based on what the detective said, but that was a concern.

[00:30:25] [SPEAKER_00]: And so I remember one of the attorneys saying that this is going to be rough.

[00:30:30] [SPEAKER_00]: You can leave so wife and mother were not there for the testimony about the girls final moments.

[00:30:37] [SPEAKER_01]: My goodness. Yeah, that was that was surprising.

[00:30:40] [SPEAKER_01]: But I guess as you said it kind of makes sense given some of the context that we learned about the relationship here.

[00:30:45] [SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, we were there. Their absence was noted and it was actually somewhat ironic in a sense because right after that came Richard Allen's biggest triumph in court because he was transferred to Cass County.

[00:30:58] [SPEAKER_01]: And this was obviously something that was a great relief to him.

[00:31:01] [SPEAKER_01]: He was smiling as he was let out.

[00:31:03] [SPEAKER_01]: And those two empty seats are right there that he's walking past as he's kind of smiling and moving on to what he thinks is a better place.

[00:31:10] [SPEAKER_01]: That just seemed like they weren't even there to experience that with him. They just they just got out of there.

[00:31:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. And I'm wondering because bringing up Brian Cobrger, Kevin, do you know this or you both know if it's state to state in terms of how they are led into court?

[00:31:27] [SPEAKER_00]: And will it be different? I'm wondering with the jurors, will he be dressed in street clothes like Brian Cobrger is, I believe, or or is it just state to state depending?

[00:31:37] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.

[00:31:39] [SPEAKER_02]: I think it's largely state to state depending. I would expect for him to be in street clothes in front of the jury and perhaps he does need to be let in and out in shackles or something for safety reasons.

[00:31:52] [SPEAKER_02]: I could imagine that would be done outside the presence of the jury.

[00:31:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you don't want to prejudice the jury against him and condition them to see him as a criminal in an orange jumpsuit because that's, you know, that's what that image conjures to mind which isn't fair to him.

[00:32:06] [SPEAKER_01]: He has not been convicted. And I would just say this, though, I think one thing that really complicates the matter is that he is or has been at times on Suicide Watch.

[00:32:16] [SPEAKER_01]: So that, you know, when you have someone in that state, that could be a problem. But I mean, it sounds like he may not be on it anymore necessarily.

[00:32:26] [SPEAKER_01]: So I think, you know, one, I would expect him to be wearing normal clothes because that's just what you typically see even in India.

[00:32:34] [SPEAKER_02]: This is the best we've seen him look. What did she say?

[00:32:37] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, it's hard if you were active, he was interacting with his environment. He was like making notes.

[00:32:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah.

[00:32:44] [SPEAKER_01]: At times they seem come in and seeming like, wow, he's lost a lot of weight and they actually went into that somewhat. So at times it was kind of like concerning.

[00:32:51] [SPEAKER_01]: So you'd be like, he really doesn't look good. He looks like a man who's lost a lot of weight in a short amount of time.

[00:32:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:32:57] [SPEAKER_00]: And it seemed like they both, though, agreed. Who was it? Was it Liggett who said, I don't care where he is, meaning, and McClelland as well, like saying, OK, but here's my concern in terms of Cass County.

[00:33:13] [SPEAKER_00]: If something incorrect me if I'm wrong, medically, he's the medical side of this is needed for him. He can't be.

[00:33:21] [SPEAKER_00]: They were concerned that he would be transported to Carroll County, general population, I believe was their biggest fear.

[00:33:28] [SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, I was shocked that she ruled on that right away. So something obviously changed her mind.

[00:33:34] [SPEAKER_01]: I felt like Rosie did a good job with that argument this time around. I think the first time he broached it, it was very much, I guess, putting it kindly.

[00:33:43] [SPEAKER_01]: It was very much like leaning into the rhetoric and leaning into this kind of idea.

[00:33:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Like the argument became Richard Allen is being treated worse than anyone at Westville versus just he shouldn't be here and everyone agrees.

[00:33:58] [SPEAKER_00]: Like a prisoner of war, I believe was the term.

[00:34:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Right. And so he put McClelland in a position where it's like, I'm going to push back against this idea that he's being tortured in prison.

[00:34:08] [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, even though at that time McClelland made it clear, like I don't really care where he is either.

[00:34:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Like, you know, like whoever will be here and whoever has the resources to keep him safe, that's fine.

[00:34:19] [SPEAKER_01]: But in this case, I felt like Rosie really more stuck to we're all in agreement. It's okay if he moves.

[00:34:25] [SPEAKER_01]: We just want to do it safely.

[00:34:26] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that was a really smart move by Rosie just to kind of tone it down and kind of get what you want because you're not when you kind of come at it in a more aggressive way.

[00:34:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Then the argument almost turns into something different than what you're initially asked for.

[00:34:41] [SPEAKER_01]: So I feel like that was smart and everyone seemed to be kind of on the same page with that.

[00:34:45] [SPEAKER_01]: And it sounds like Cass County will have significantly fewer resources for him in terms of medical stuff and mental health.

[00:34:54] [SPEAKER_01]: So that's something to note, but it seems like that's what he wants.

[00:34:59] [SPEAKER_01]: So.

[00:35:01] [SPEAKER_00]: And I was a little surprised.

[00:35:03] [SPEAKER_00]: I think it was a good call of Judge Gull to make the ruling on that immediately.

[00:35:10] [SPEAKER_00]: On day three.

[00:35:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that seemed that seemed fair and it seemed like it was just well argued.

[00:35:15] [SPEAKER_01]: And again, both sides seem to be in somewhat of an agreement as long as Cass County felt they could handle him.

[00:35:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Make it happen.

[00:35:22] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, why don't you think of Judge Gull overall?

[00:35:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Her performance has been both praised and criticized by different people on different sides at different times.

[00:35:31] [SPEAKER_02]: What did you think of the judge?

[00:35:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.

[00:35:33] [SPEAKER_00]: And considering everything that's happened, I mean the lawyers off the case on the case Indiana Supreme Court, you kind of from my perspective this being the first time I've been there, you forgot about that.

[00:35:44] [SPEAKER_00]: I thought everyone was professional and I didn't see any sort of favoritism.

[00:35:50] [SPEAKER_00]: And that's from my perspective.

[00:35:52] [SPEAKER_00]: And I thought that everyone was professional, except maybe one thing with Baldwin and day one flashing around the printed crime scene photos.

[00:36:03] [SPEAKER_00]: I was like, can you not do that?

[00:36:05] [SPEAKER_00]: We see what's on that paper and it just.

[00:36:07] [SPEAKER_00]: But other than that, I thought that overall it was very professional as a courtroom should be.

[00:36:14] [SPEAKER_00]: Right? That's the norm.

[00:36:15] [SPEAKER_00]: But I thought Judge Gull did a good job.

[00:36:18] [SPEAKER_00]: I really do.

[00:36:19] [SPEAKER_00]: It's a long three days and she even apologized and said, look, day two, this has gone much longer than I thought.

[00:36:24] [SPEAKER_00]: And of course, day three, she said both sides seemed to think three days was enough and clearly it was barely enough.

[00:36:30] [SPEAKER_00]: I believe they had to maybe eliminate a witness or I don't know if they did that by choice or for timing purposes, but it was a long day for everyone day three.

[00:36:40] [SPEAKER_00]: All three days, but especially day three going, I think, till 8.30 and hearing the most horrific testimony in my opinion.

[00:36:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.

[00:36:49] [SPEAKER_01]: I will say my personal opinion, just my opinion.

[00:36:53] [SPEAKER_01]: I was at times very unimpressed with the lawyering on the defense side at times.

[00:36:58] [SPEAKER_01]: But I will say everyone seemed very professional.

[00:37:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Everyone seemed this was more of what you would expect from your typical, you know, hearings or trial where everyone's just polite.

[00:37:11] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, maybe there's a couple of moments where they're both sides are getting a little snippy with each other, but nothing beyond the pale.

[00:37:18] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think like trying to call Judge Gull as a witness or getting her kicked off for the fifth time.

[00:37:24] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[00:37:24] [SPEAKER_01]: It was impressive and I was glad to see that because that's what you want to see from both sides and from the judge.

[00:37:30] [SPEAKER_01]: And I felt like it was actually one time, I don't know if you remember this, but where I think the prosecution side was objecting to something the defense said.

[00:37:38] [SPEAKER_01]: And they were like, well, you said this and then Judge Gull actually stepped in and was like, no, he said what he's saying.

[00:37:45] [SPEAKER_01]: She actually threw it to Baldwin because she was like they're telling the truth about what they said.

[00:37:50] [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, so basically kind of siding with them over the prosecution.

[00:37:55] [SPEAKER_01]: And it was just interesting to see because I think there's been so much constant about that that it's like you kind of wouldn't expect that.

[00:38:03] [SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.

[00:38:04] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think I'm paraphrasing because there was no cameras at this hearing but her saying, look, I'm just a referee here essentially.

[00:38:12] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not trying this case as a judge.

[00:38:15] [SPEAKER_00]: So I thought she was fair from what I saw.

[00:38:18] [SPEAKER_01]: I want to follow up with something you said about Baldwin handling the photographs.

[00:38:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Can you tell us about that because we were a bit further away so we had a bad feeling about what those showed, but I guess, you know, what was your experience being kind of closer to where that was happening?

[00:38:34] [SPEAKER_01]: And can you tell us what happened?

[00:38:36] [SPEAKER_00]: Coincidentally, I was in the same hotel as Baldwin.

[00:38:39] [SPEAKER_00]: And I, for I don't know what reason, but we kept walking out and the same floor.

[00:38:45] [SPEAKER_00]: We kept walking towards the elevator at the same time even at five in the morning.

[00:38:48] [SPEAKER_00]: So and he always had boxes, obviously he's an attorney, but I felt they had a lot of like big boards and they were a lot of visuals that they were bringing into this.

[00:38:58] [SPEAKER_00]: And I believe it was a young law clerk at one point with stacking papers on the table and judge called said, where are we going with this?

[00:39:07] [SPEAKER_00]: It was for dramatic reasons like these are the gigabytes of evidence and this is what it looks like and very theatrical at times, but they had the big boards and on the big board.

[00:39:19] [SPEAKER_00]: I just thought they should have been more careful in terms of what they were showing.

[00:39:23] [SPEAKER_00]: So from my perspective, it was like a photocopy.

[00:39:27] [SPEAKER_00]: I believe it was a split screen of some ritualistic.

[00:39:33] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not even sure what was on the right side, but the left was the crime scene photo and he kept handing it to, I believe, McClelland and the prosecution side.

[00:39:42] [SPEAKER_00]: But I'm sitting next to day one, Becky and Tara.

[00:39:46] [SPEAKER_00]: And I heard Tara say close your eyes like because it was so apparent.

[00:39:50] [SPEAKER_00]: I felt that that was irresponsible day one.

[00:39:52] [SPEAKER_00]: It felt like it was by design.

[00:39:53] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.

[00:39:54] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, how can you not know?

[00:39:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[00:39:58] [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm curious about this and this is, you know, you are coming from a broadcast background with HLN and whatnot.

[00:40:07] [SPEAKER_01]: And one thing that we often hear continue to hear a lot about is cameras in the courtroom.

[00:40:12] [SPEAKER_01]: What are your opinions on that?

[00:40:15] [SPEAKER_01]: I guess I'll state ours.

[00:40:19] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, not really an opinion, but we just really do not believe that there are going to be cameras in the courtroom.

[00:40:24] [SPEAKER_01]: I guess what are your thoughts on that?

[00:40:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Do you agree with that?

[00:40:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Do you kind of see both sides of it?

[00:40:29] [SPEAKER_00]: I think there should be cameras in the courtroom personally.

[00:40:32] [SPEAKER_00]: I wish there was.

[00:40:33] [SPEAKER_00]: I think especially, I think transparency should be there and especially with so many bizarre conspiracy theories that we've been hearing.

[00:40:41] [SPEAKER_00]: And oh, this is secretive and this is why and why don't they do that?

[00:40:46] [SPEAKER_00]: I just think it's easier if.

[00:40:48] [SPEAKER_00]: And of course, I know there's a risk, I guess for jurors to be seen, but we've been doing it for years in terms of.

[00:40:56] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I covered the Casey Anthony trial wall to wall.

[00:41:00] [SPEAKER_00]: We would have been saying we're pausing here before we go to a commercial break because the viewer didn't want to miss a moment of it.

[00:41:07] [SPEAKER_00]: So they wanted to see this and they wanted to feel part of it.

[00:41:10] [SPEAKER_00]: I thought that at first she may allow it.

[00:41:13] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm talking, you know, more than a year ago, I thought that may be the decision, but I agree with you.

[00:41:18] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't see that happening and maybe in Judge Schoel's own mind, she thinks it's too much of a circus if you will.

[00:41:25] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's obviously her decision, but I believe in cameras in the courtroom.

[00:41:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I tend to come down the same way.

[00:41:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Ultimately, I think the benefits of cameras outweigh the problems.

[00:41:37] [SPEAKER_01]: The problems I see with it are it encourages grandstanding from the attorneys.

[00:41:42] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, you pose them for the cameras and it just leads to more of the tip talk of occasion of like, look at this witness.

[00:41:49] [SPEAKER_01]: What did they say? Let's go find their address.

[00:41:51] [SPEAKER_01]: And you know, it's like that we've seen it again and again with high profile trials where it just turns into definitely more of a circus.

[00:41:59] [SPEAKER_00]: So I got such a good point.

[00:42:00] [SPEAKER_01]: I didn't understand the judge on this.

[00:42:02] [SPEAKER_01]: I do understand it, but I don't agree with it because ultimately I think letting people see such a high profile case would be beneficial.

[00:42:11] [SPEAKER_00]: What are your thoughts on the jurors being sequestered?

[00:42:15] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I don't see how they couldn't be with the amount of attention this gets.

[00:42:20] [SPEAKER_01]: It's I think it's absolutely necessary.

[00:42:23] [SPEAKER_00]: I agree.

[00:42:24] [SPEAKER_02]: I think it's absolutely necessary.

[00:42:27] [SPEAKER_02]: It's not just will mainstream media be covering every detail of this trial, but these people, these jurors could potentially be exposed to people in social media reporting with quotation marks around the word reporting on facts that may not have actually happened.

[00:42:45] [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm sure there will be things that come up in the trial that are done in front of the jury for specific reasons.

[00:42:53] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think people would be speculating about that and that speculation would reach the jurors if they weren't sequestered.

[00:43:00] [SPEAKER_02]: So I think it's an absolute must.

[00:43:02] [SPEAKER_00]: I do too.

[00:43:02] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think as a society, we've learned of course since the OJ trial, I mean, that was a year.

[00:43:07] [SPEAKER_00]: This will probably be a month.

[00:43:09] [SPEAKER_00]: So I completely agree.

[00:43:11] [SPEAKER_00]: I remember when the PCA wasn't released yet, but Richard Allen was in custody and there was a petition that Becky drew up and had it was sending it around.

[00:43:22] [SPEAKER_00]: I couldn't sign it.

[00:43:23] [SPEAKER_00]: I was with CNN and so but I understood she posted something on Facebook saying, I believe that some people quote unquote reporting on this, the Internet slews, if you will, some of them, they'll go to any extent and they may see the witness names or so I could see that.

[00:43:41] [SPEAKER_00]: But if I was a juror on this case and I had not heard about it and I was selected, I'd be worried that people would be following me home to try to talk to me or interview me.

[00:43:49] [SPEAKER_00]: So I don't there's so many people out there and this case is front and center.

[00:43:53] [SPEAKER_00]: So I agree.

[00:43:54] [SPEAKER_00]: I'd want to be sequestered if I was a juror in the trial.

[00:43:57] [SPEAKER_01]: And the worst actors in this, I'm sure as you've heard about, you know, they don't respect the system.

[00:44:03] [SPEAKER_01]: They don't respect how anything works.

[00:44:05] [SPEAKER_01]: They don't respect other people's privacy.

[00:44:07] [SPEAKER_01]: They don't see they will do anything.

[00:44:09] [SPEAKER_01]: So it's not it's not as if it's a, you know, a certain group with like a lot of, you know, critical thinking skills or ability to sort of not just go with whatever is the angriest and stupidest option like that is we will get, you know, I mean there could be jury intimidation here if it's not handled properly.

[00:44:27] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's a fair concern.

[00:44:30] [SPEAKER_01]: And the jury system is the jury is the heart of our system, like the jury of your peers is is has been tried in the Constitution.

[00:44:38] [SPEAKER_01]: It's you know, if you have people messing with juries and that's that's pretty low.

[00:44:43] [SPEAKER_01]: It's pretty it's pretty bad.

[00:44:44] [SPEAKER_01]: So I think anything to prevent something like that from happening is so important.

[00:44:48] [SPEAKER_00]: Attorney Joey Jackson criminal defense attorney.

[00:44:50] [SPEAKER_00]: He's been on CNN with me in HLN talking about different trials.

[00:44:54] [SPEAKER_00]: And he always said to me and reiterated how important jury selection is.

[00:44:58] [SPEAKER_00]: He's like Susan some cases are one and lost in jury selection.

[00:45:02] [SPEAKER_00]: So those few days beforehand will be interesting on the jury questionnaire and who selected and if they have heard about the case before because if you're in it like we are and you learn so much about it, you think how can they not hear of it but there are people even believe it or not at crime con.

[00:45:22] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm talking years ago who were kind of familiar but not really.

[00:45:27] [SPEAKER_00]: So I do believe that they can pick an impartial jury, I believe that.

[00:45:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, absolutely.

[00:45:33] [SPEAKER_01]: I think all of us in the true crime bubble really overestimate how many people are interested in this and and as you said there's a significant population where they probably have heard of the case and they may be aware that two girls were murdered and not much else and not much else because it's just not something that they focus on and it's sort of like if you were asking Kevin and I about like the NFL and what was going on.

[00:45:56] [SPEAKER_01]: I was just going to say that.

[00:45:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[00:45:59] [SPEAKER_01]: I heard of Travis Kelsie, the guy who you know.

[00:46:04] [SPEAKER_00]: It's so funny you say that might need your old yesterday said mom name an NFL player but not Travis Kelsie.

[00:46:11] [SPEAKER_00]: I said, I couldn't Troy it went back in the day.

[00:46:14] [SPEAKER_01]: No, I know the Patrick Mahomes is that my home's the most.

[00:46:19] [SPEAKER_01]: The homies.

[00:46:20] [SPEAKER_01]: To the man.

[00:46:21] [SPEAKER_00]: So that's a great analogy because right how can you not know because really sports fans are people who cover the NFL would not believe or fathom that we don't we couldn't name a couple players so that's a great analogy and it's it's one of those things and it's like, you know, it just we just have different

[00:46:37] [SPEAKER_01]: interests and if I see oh you know the Kansas City Chiefs are going to the Super Bowl and I see that on the news.

[00:46:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, cool.

[00:46:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Like that's that's cool.

[00:46:44] [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm not going to necessarily follow up every big thing.

[00:46:48] [SPEAKER_01]: And so I think that's a lot of people fall into that category with crime and it's just hard for us to fathom we have to just acknowledge that our interest is not necessarily an interest shared by every single person.

[00:47:00] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm curious though, because you've actually been through the high profile splashy media centric trials before.

[00:47:10] [SPEAKER_01]: What should we all expect for this case, given that on the one hand there is an intense amount of public interest but on the other hand, there's no cameras.

[00:47:19] [SPEAKER_01]: What can we expect with the national press or you know perhaps look for in terms of them covering this.

[00:47:25] [SPEAKER_00]: I foresee there being some theatrics just based on what I saw in those three days and my mind goes straight to Jose Baez with Casey Anthony and just ladies and gentlemen of the jury and the opening statement and of course cameras were in that courtroom and saying something so outlandish in my opinion that she drowned in the pool

[00:47:45] [SPEAKER_00]: and the father is molesting this person and that just outlandish statements that come to find out you don't have to prove in the opening statement, which I see that coming in this case with that.

[00:47:57] [SPEAKER_00]: And there is an interest.

[00:47:59] [SPEAKER_00]: I know that ABC News David Muir's team Amy Robach covered it significantly so I absolutely see it being covered.

[00:48:07] [SPEAKER_00]: But it'll be interesting to see what happens inside the courtroom because even though I don't believe there will be cameras like you don't believe that but I absolutely foresee this to be as attorneys are they have to be performative.

[00:48:22] [SPEAKER_00]: But it'll be interesting to see and I remember Judge Gull ruled specifically wasn't that a request from the defense that they could deliver an opening statement was that during trial or hearing I'm not sure but she granted that.

[00:48:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and I'm curious in terms of the national outlets this is going to be.

[00:48:41] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean I have my own thoughts about a month long trial I think that's a lot of time and I think that's not going to be necessary if Odinism is not allowed in and I think if we're looking at the law Odinism probably should not be allowed in but but beyond that let's just say at the month for now because that's what's scheduled are without

[00:49:02] [SPEAKER_01]: without cameras in the courtroom do you see national outlets dedicating reporters to go out like for this month long thing or do you see it more as they're strategically having people go at different times and it's not necessarily going to get to that critical capacity where you know it's a total zoo outside the courtroom.

[00:49:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, exactly what you just said and I believe it's because of timing because of what's going on politically and there being an election if there wasn't if there were cameras in the courtroom.

[00:49:30] [SPEAKER_00]: And HLN was still there we would cover it wall to wall as I believe court TV would cover it because it absolutely has the interest there and we saw with Karen read and how many people were so invested in this but they could see it.

[00:49:43] [SPEAKER_00]: So I believe because cameras will not be allowed if that's what ends up happening that national news outlets may not cover it as extensively.

[00:49:53] [SPEAKER_00]: I believe that ABC News will cover it they may send someone maybe for opening statements and then maybe back in or maybe have a producer in there for the whole month, but then maybe have some TV personalities if you will reporters in there, maybe for the verdict.

[00:50:12] [SPEAKER_00]: But I don't think it will have the Casey Anthony level coverage because of the cameras because there won't be any and the election year two will play in.

[00:50:23] [SPEAKER_01]: That's a really good point about the election. This is that if it happens in October it would be happening in the final stretch and so I mean it would actually there would actually be the election taking place if it takes a month so we don't miss voting I guess so I guess anyone going get your apps and.

[00:50:41] [SPEAKER_00]: That's a good point. That's a good I didn't even think of that.

[00:50:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's that's actually really interesting so the rest of the country may be absorbed in that understandably and you know it'll be it'll be odd to be there but you know that's if it happens in October.

[00:50:57] [SPEAKER_01]: I suppose any other things that you're sort of looking forward to or not looking forward to in the sense that you're like happily anticipating but more of just anticipating or thinking could happen or you're keeping an eye on as far as we get closer to trial.

[00:51:11] [SPEAKER_00]: First I'll speak to after the trial once the gag orders are lifted who chooses to talk and why and what will they say like I know I don't know I'd assume it was hard for the families and depending on if you're less likely to give interviews like Abbie's mom but.

[00:51:28] [SPEAKER_00]: I know with Becky she found that healing to be able to connect and talk I think it will be interesting in terms of rulings what is admissible and what is not and what the jury.

[00:51:41] [SPEAKER_00]: listens to and hears and essentially believes because as you know the defense doesn't necessarily reasonable doubt right is there enough reasonable doubt if Odinism isn't brought in.

[00:51:53] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm wondering where they'll go with this but you know I did see as you mentioned with Rosie he's a good attorney and we'll see what happens but I also was very surprised and I shouldn't have been that surprised I mean their attorneys but just how.

[00:52:09] [SPEAKER_00]: What a great job McLean did I thought he was just on point constantly day to day just on it and I really like Stacy as well and if his co-counsel I really thought that they are a strong team.

[00:52:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah they really seem to be in sync and they all brought something different to the table but I was very impressed with McLean in particular with that some of those cross examinations were just devastating and so I felt like wow like this is.

[00:52:37] [SPEAKER_00]: The formidable opponent for the defense to be going up against it if they don't get Odinism in yeah I don't think I say surprise because there was talking whispers I'm talking years ago when McLean was new after I've.

[00:52:51] [SPEAKER_00]: That he's an experience and that he's young and so you know it's a double murder what's gonna happen and there's a lot on his plate but.

[00:52:58] [SPEAKER_00]: I did hear that from some of the family members that he's just I mean this is what he breathes this case he wants justice for the girls and he lives it and he's it's every day in the day.

[00:53:10] [SPEAKER_00]: Dedications there and I thought it was apparent you could see it it was interesting to see as I was sitting so close to the prosecution side it was interesting to see just how they are on it I mean I felt like this is what we may see during the trial we were able to witness three days of it.

[00:53:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Well said well said and I agree that that dedication is apparent just what we saw in that courtroom was spoke to it for sure.

[00:53:36] [SPEAKER_00]: What do you guys think about how on a superficial level the seats in that courtroom and and how many there are and how that will look but I mean Mike had seat cushions you need them and Becky I mean it felt like old church pews from back in the day.

[00:53:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Really were so smart to bring those cushions and every time I think oh man we should do that and then I just totally forget it.

[00:54:00] [SPEAKER_00]: And it sounds like we're exaggerating we're not when it's on eight nine hours that you're sitting there it's a.

[00:54:07] [SPEAKER_00]: You know it was funny how Mike was saying here use the cushion it gave us a laugh but it's very uncomfortable in there for hours and hours.

[00:54:15] [SPEAKER_01]: They gave us like a water bottle at one point like they're just very nice people I want to underscore that.

[00:54:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh my gosh they're so nice they are so nice.

[00:54:24] [SPEAKER_01]: It's one of those things where we you know you do start to feel it and you're just kind of like you know after a while with just how it's going to be it's going to be weird I think it's going to be a really surreal experience if I mean if it goes to trial I believe it will go to trial.

[00:54:38] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if it's going to go to trial in October to be honest but I do think it will be a trial and I think you know Judge Gull we've heard I think some of the was there was there a filing or something about this where she indicated like maybe we'll do Saturdays as well not come out.

[00:54:54] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah we'll really get to know each other then I'll be moving in with you guys but when I said so nice of course the families but also I was thinking those in the courthouse someone made chicken salad sandwiches for the family one day they ordered.

[00:55:08] [SPEAKER_00]: So I really think that they're up for the task I just think it's very small court in terms of where the public and media could sit but absolutely I think they are ready for this if it does go to trial.

[00:55:23] [SPEAKER_00]: What are your thoughts on you think it will be delayed maybe a couple months or.

[00:55:27] [SPEAKER_01]: No this is total speculation on my part but this is my logic so in a sane world I feel like Odinism will be thrown out on the curb I mean there's no I do not believe they even came close to reaching the standard that is needed to present that in a courtroom.

[00:55:46] [SPEAKER_01]: So I think that's gone and then if I'm looking at that in fairness to the defense then you know if they don't have you know a secondary theory ready to go or they don't feel comfortable just picking apart the state's case and going for reasonable doubt.

[00:56:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Then I think it's going to get delayed based on just that and so I think that's a very likely possibility and also you might have them try to appeal the dismissal of the throwing out of Odinism.

[00:56:14] [SPEAKER_01]: And that will take a long time so I think we're going to see things get delayed by by the defense due to that possibility happening that's just my gut.

[00:56:25] [SPEAKER_01]: I hope you're wrong.

[00:56:26] [SPEAKER_01]: I deeply hope I'm wrong I would love for this to just go to trial in October and just kind of like let's just have it out because that's I think what we've all been waiting for I think that's what everyone has been waiting for and but I just don't see that happening.

[00:56:40] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm hopeful for October.

[00:56:42] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm probably being naive.

[00:56:45] [SPEAKER_02]: I think everybody in the process on the prosecution side on the defense side for different reasons that they're ready for this to be over Richard Allen's family is also in a state of indecision here.

[00:56:57] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm sure having a verdict there would be helpful for them instead of just the endless waiting.

[00:57:02] [SPEAKER_02]: So I'm hopeful but I recognize the wisdom and on his words.

[00:57:07] [SPEAKER_00]: And that was a good point that you brought up in terms of I thought OK as you both know and how long you've been following this you know different names have come up throughout speaking of one Brad Holder his ex wife was on the stand.

[00:57:21] [SPEAKER_00]: But then with cross examination they had alibis so that's where it threw me that I was like OK well they're bringing up some good points here always an alibi.

[00:57:30] [SPEAKER_00]: So that is what I'm saying that how can you bring that in.

[00:57:34] [SPEAKER_00]: So in terms of other names a third party defense I believe it's called but it will depend a lot on her rulings.

[00:57:40] [SPEAKER_00]: I agree but I hope it happens in October because again going back to Facebook because there is a gag order.

[00:57:47] [SPEAKER_00]: Becky one day wrote in all caps.

[00:57:48] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm so tired of the circus and that of course is not necessarily surrounding the delays but how much has gone on to get to this point.

[00:57:56] [SPEAKER_00]: So I hope we're able to go all the way through October in normal trial or in a normal case.

[00:58:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Normal case if I saw those three days of hearings and then found out that this guy is made incriminating statements 61 times where he's trying to get right with God and is begging for his family to love him.

[00:58:16] [SPEAKER_01]: I would think we were heading for a plea deal that would be a normal case.

[00:58:19] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think we're heading in that direction here.

[00:58:21] [SPEAKER_01]: I think there's a lot that goes against a plea deal happening here.

[00:58:26] [SPEAKER_01]: So it's just one of those things that underscores how weird this case is in many ways because the things were like you'd be like well OK we're probably done here.

[00:58:36] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't I think that's all completely.

[00:58:39] [SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot of weird incentives going on here I think so I think that's a I wish it were I wish I were confident about October because I think it needs to end at some point.

[00:58:51] [SPEAKER_01]: But you know I hope I'm wrong.

[00:58:53] [SPEAKER_01]: I hope I'm really wrong.

[00:58:54] [SPEAKER_01]: I hope I'm way off on this.

[00:58:55] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah nothing normal really has been surrounding this case from the beginning even the investigation process and the sketches and all of that.

[00:59:04] [SPEAKER_00]: So and talk about a crash course in law the law clerks I mean what they're learning and seeing.

[00:59:10] [SPEAKER_00]: I could tell that I say young kid maybe mid 20s early 20s was putting slamming the paper down.

[00:59:16] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm wondering did he practice that last night.

[00:59:18] [SPEAKER_00]: How nervous is he and right nothing is normal about it.

[00:59:22] [SPEAKER_00]: But I just and there's never you both know this closure.

[00:59:26] [SPEAKER_00]: I've learned that through the years that family members of course don't like it because it's never back to normal.

[00:59:31] [SPEAKER_00]: You never the girls are not coming back.

[00:59:34] [SPEAKER_00]: I've heard time and time again which is true that that loss is forever there.

[00:59:38] [SPEAKER_00]: It's a crater in their lives.

[00:59:40] [SPEAKER_00]: So there is no closure but it is I believe justice if you believe he's guilty and I believe that we'll find that out soon.

[00:59:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely well Susan this has been delightful.

[00:59:51] [SPEAKER_01]: You're wonderful to talk to again we do so much underscore so much thank you for coming.

[00:59:56] [SPEAKER_01]: It was really fun to hang out in line and whatnot and you know just chat more and I just want to ask you is there anything we didn't ask you about this really important to underscore or to kind of explain to our audience.

[01:00:10] [SPEAKER_00]: How my eyeliner worked as a pen on day three when we had to run to your house and you were so nice to allow it.

[01:00:19] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm running upstairs we're both going to be on court TV I'm sweating it looked like a proof of life video and I don't have a pen and it's I'm running and I'm writing my eyeliner notes.

[01:00:30] [SPEAKER_00]: Cisarrow.

[01:00:33] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean and it was so great meeting you because I felt like we had spent.

[01:00:37] [SPEAKER_00]: It was three days a month together and you were just so kind because I don't.

[01:00:41] [SPEAKER_00]: I didn't know the ropes he told me when to get there where to go but of course with the house you're in it was just hilarious and then Kevin was cutting in and out downstairs I'm upstairs in a random room and I'm like everything's normal here nothing to see here folks.

[01:00:55] [SPEAKER_01]: It was awesome it really felt something like out of a sitcom and then I really did.

[01:01:00] [SPEAKER_01]: You were on a huge delay and then we kept cutting out and we're just like oh my God what have we done and that's unfortunately that's actually just the Internet and Delphi you know the producer so I know through HLN is just through the years I like Susan can you tilt your camera down I'm like tilt it down you're looking

[01:01:15] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm upright there's a cat about to crawl up my back at any moment.

[01:01:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Those cats were the real stars I love them so much they were like they were just they were they're they're the TV stars but I was just like oh my gosh it was I was just so glad we were all able to do that though because it was kind of a nice like way to kind of like kind of go on on

[01:01:35] [SPEAKER_01]: court TV and sort of decompress and be like here's what we just heard like it because it just felt so surreal at that point it's like maybe if I put it into words it'll make sense to me.

[01:01:43] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes and I'll end with which I think signifies the day and the people who really care about this case is there are no ubers or lifts or taxis in Delphi after a certain time and so you were able to find a ride for me with the most fantastic woman ever who were texting all the time now so just the openness of everyone involved.

[01:02:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes it really does underscore it again I get so negative I'm very pessimistic but there are very nice people who care deeply about this case and do a nice job and I'm so glad you got to meet some of them.

[01:02:16] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah you're positive person you're just skeptical in a good way it's the recorder in you.

[01:02:21] [SPEAKER_01]: He knows the different he knows.

[01:02:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh she's got her feet to help you.

[01:02:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Nancy no yeah I do I do I do have hope for people so no this is this been wonderful Susan thank you so much for all you do and I really again down the hill it's Susan's book it's about the Delphi murders it's excellent I really recommend just you know wherever you buy your books but we'll be sharing a link in our show notes so you can get it and it's very much worth your time very good book.

[01:02:48] [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks guys so good to talk to you.

[01:02:51] [SPEAKER_01]: You too Susan thank you so much.

[01:02:53] [SPEAKER_02]: And here's Aspen Connor.

[01:02:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Aspen first of all thank you so much for joining us today pleasure to speak with you.

[01:03:00] [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you it's a pleasure to speak to you.

[01:03:03] [SPEAKER_01]: We were really excited to see you at the last sort of three day sets of hearings that occurred in the Delphi case and I understand that that was your first time coming to one of those hearings is that right.

[01:03:13] [SPEAKER_03]: Kind of.

[01:03:15] [SPEAKER_03]: I am I had I had come to Delphi in May for the hearings originally and was sitting across the street having lunch with Tom Webster of all people we literally got an email.

[01:03:30] [SPEAKER_03]: While we were 75 yards from the courthouse that said the hearings were canceled.

[01:03:36] [SPEAKER_03]: So we had come from different you know different places in the country met in the middle had lunch at the office tavern and then found out it was all for nothing but it made me more committed to want to attend in July so I am glad that I did and it's funny after after the three days that we spent sitting near each other in court.

[01:03:57] [SPEAKER_03]: I feel like I know you and Kevin now you know even though we didn't get to talk about much but spend that much time with people and you kind of form a little bit of a bond I think.

[01:04:07] [SPEAKER_01]: I concur I was saying that to Kevin the other day I was like I feel like we kind of have like a weird like war bond with everybody who's in that line sometimes like we've all been through it together.

[01:04:18] [SPEAKER_01]: And so we agree it was really nice to meet you in person.

[01:04:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Sorry Tom wasn't able to get there this time he's great but I was very happy to see you and it is true you do have a sense of camaraderie with other people they're covering it.

[01:04:31] [SPEAKER_01]: And I guess you know if you had a boil down in a nutshell what was the experience of actually getting to attend these hearings like for you as somebody who's covered it for so long.

[01:04:40] [SPEAKER_03]: I think the overall experience of course was surreal to you after years of being very invested in this case and following the case and speaking to people from the case and getting to know some people from the case.

[01:04:54] [SPEAKER_03]: Both people that are you know relevant as far as being involved in the actual case and people that have covered the case as well.

[01:05:02] [SPEAKER_03]: There were some it was this weird like kind of like multiverse of like you know there were like the players of that you know we've all been talking about for all of these years mixed within like the people that talk about them for years.

[01:05:14] [SPEAKER_03]: And you know we're all in one room and so that experience was the initial thing that was interesting to me was to sit there and you know really finally in person be able to observe you know the body language and the the the speaking style of people like you

[01:05:31] [SPEAKER_03]: know Brad Rosie Andrew Baldwin Nick McClillan Judge Gall Toe Buzin B you know Jerry woman all of these people and then of course to see Richard Allen himself who's accused that was surreal as well.

[01:05:47] [SPEAKER_01]: What were your observations about Richard Allen as you said like he's the guy at the center of this whole thing and he remains somewhat of an enigma for a lot of people because there are not a lot of people coming out of the woodwork saying oh here's what he's like

[01:06:00] [SPEAKER_01]: here's what he was like before this. So when you're observing him that kind of one real key moment to actually kind of make some observations so what were some things you noticed about him.

[01:06:11] [SPEAKER_03]: You know I definitely want to preface that with saying you know anyone that was in that courtroom I feel like I know for me even though it was my first time there.

[01:06:18] [SPEAKER_03]: I wanted to try as hard as possible not to conflate my expectations or the things I already kind of had felt or thought about this about this person with the reality of happening in front of me.

[01:06:36] [SPEAKER_03]: So I tried to keep that separate the entire time but there's no denying that you know when you know he's a slight man he's small he's you know he is petite.

[01:06:47] [SPEAKER_03]: He has looked different you know in all of the pictures I've seen of him even from the May 7 hearing photo that we saw of him where he had the beard and everything he looked much different in July he had his head buzzed.

[01:07:00] [SPEAKER_03]: I heard a few people say he looked like he'd put on a little weight since May I heard a few people say he looked like he lost a little weight either way he's a small man.

[01:07:10] [SPEAKER_03]: And I think he looks even smaller when he's then surrounded by six five or six you know bigger deputies.

[01:07:18] [SPEAKER_03]: My other first observation of him is that his eyes are a lot of people have used different words to describe this and I would say the you know they're very pronounced.

[01:07:30] [SPEAKER_03]: Some people have called them bulging some people have called them intense.

[01:07:34] [SPEAKER_03]: I can see all of those descriptions being accurate.

[01:07:38] [SPEAKER_03]: And the color of them I was surprised to see was incredibly in my opinion I thought was incredibly light for the majority of those three days because I've seen it.

[01:07:51] [SPEAKER_03]: I've seen his eyes look very different and in the depth of color that they usually have.

[01:07:57] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm curious in terms of the information that came out and it's sort of I imagine it's it's hard for anyone to boil it down because we had three days three very long days of hearings.

[01:08:09] [SPEAKER_01]: But when you're walking away and you're thinking the biggest things that you want to then impart to your audience what were some of the major takeaways about what we saw those three days or what we heard those three days.

[01:08:24] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh that said that is a hard question.

[01:08:28] [SPEAKER_03]: There were times of course and I understand this is just the way court goes sometimes you know the best majority of the public doesn't follow criminal cases as closely as a lot of us that cover them do so.

[01:08:41] [SPEAKER_03]: So while I felt like you know there was a lot of time and emphasis placed on in my head what were things that were repetitive.

[01:08:51] [SPEAKER_03]: I understand one that's important in the court process because when you have to lay foundation you have to you know lay all those those things out.

[01:08:59] [SPEAKER_03]: There was a lot of time spent on things that I'm not quite sure how important relevant or irrelevant they are.

[01:09:06] [SPEAKER_03]: I made a joke one day that if I ever have to hear the word Brad Holder's Facebook page again use as a reference to something that could be considered exculpatory evidence.

[01:09:19] [SPEAKER_03]: I might just lose all faith in our judicial system completely.

[01:09:25] [SPEAKER_03]: We did hear that a lot.

[01:09:26] [SPEAKER_03]: But you know of course we heard some information that we had not heard prior which that of course is going to be a strong takeaway.

[01:09:35] [SPEAKER_03]: And other than that I don't like to criticize people especially when I don't know if I'm qualified because I'm not a lawyer but there were points that I felt like if we are there for you know like let's say the second day which the entire day was focused on the suppression hearings.

[01:09:55] [SPEAKER_03]: And your entire goal as the defense team for Richard Allen is to have a third party defense admitted in court.

[01:10:06] [SPEAKER_03]: And you spend all of this time interviewing these people that seemed like very capable professional people and to support the the argument that that you know these are reasons that this should be allowed in court.

[01:10:24] [SPEAKER_03]: And then upon cross exam and not with just one but with all of them all of them within two to three questions were completely discredited by the prosecution.

[01:10:37] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean you spent hours talking about why these individual individuals like Brad Holder and Elvis Fields and Patrick Westphal and Ned Smith and Rod Abrams and all of these people should be suspects in this case.

[01:10:53] [SPEAKER_03]: And literally all the prosecution had to do was get up on us to get up there and say can you place them there. No.

[01:11:03] [SPEAKER_03]: Do you have any evidence they're involved. No.

[01:11:06] [SPEAKER_03]: You know even with their own expert she had to concede that there were you know that the evidence they were trying to use to get this admitted into court it wasn't there.

[01:11:17] [SPEAKER_03]: And and it's and it's not there. It's not there. But I was disappointed. I felt like that you know if you've if that's your entire focus I felt like the defense really missed a golden opportunity at that point to just to stand up and ask a question like do you believe there was no evidence because

[01:11:36] [SPEAKER_03]: because unified command didn't take your investigation seriously. I mean there were a million questions I think they could have asked that would have kept the door open to the possibility and I just think it was a wasted wasted moment.

[01:11:51] [SPEAKER_01]: I I tend to concur with you. I feel like we're you know to think about it in a sports analogy this is you know for the defense this is sudden death over time for their central theory of the crime which is that Brad Holder and a group of other people they claim are

[01:12:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Odinists sacrificed the girls in the woods if they lose they lose that theory. So there's no reason to not pull out every single stop and be as aggressive as possible. And I also felt there were a lot of missed opportunities with that to kind of keep it in play.

[01:12:25] [SPEAKER_03]: Right. I mean to the point where even I mean at one point I don't know if you caught this but Brad Rosie you know even made a mention to Judge Gull about perhaps a second deep dive hearing would would you know would be beneficial in that regard. And I was thinking like that's what we're here for today.

[01:12:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes. Are you expecting more Odinist evidence to like rain down from the sky like manna I mean like I don't I I I don't even think we talked about that on our show but I do remember that and I do remember thinking what are we do like you know I mean I don't know it's it's definitely perplexing but it's it does speak to perhaps some underlying weaknesses with this theory I think

[01:13:11] [SPEAKER_03]: and also raises questions about then why go with that theory when there are other ones available. Right. My other biggest takeaway was I whether you like or dislike the prosecution in this case I walked away from those hearings feeling like well actually I was impressed by all of the attorneys I thought

[01:13:31] [SPEAKER_03]: that all of them did a good job on both sides for the most part but I felt like Nick McClendon came off as very charismatic he came off as an incredibly intelligent smart prepared. I really felt like he was in kind of control of that courtroom and his in his presence and I feel like there's

[01:13:53] [SPEAKER_03]: a lot of confidence on the prosecution side to the point where they don't seem spooked at all. I got the opposite feeling a little bit from the defense I felt like they are I felt like they were playing spooked.

[01:14:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah I think I've heard a lot of people make that observation that at this point seems to be a common perception and I think that's well said I wanted to ask you aspen you cover the case with a lot of compassion you don't do the sensationalism you're just sort of calling it like you see it

[01:14:25] [SPEAKER_01]: and knowing this additional information and also having seen performances from both parties where do you how do you see the case against Richard Allen right now to see it as a very strong case and OK case a weak case where where does it sort of fall together for you.

[01:14:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Being keeping in mind that he still has to go to trial and there's a lot we still don't know I'm just talking about where we stand now based on what is public.

[01:14:51] [SPEAKER_03]: Right. I mean of course it's important to remember each factually and sent until proven guilty. You know and as even when we're talking about the performance of the defense prosecution I mean of course the burden is on the state where I see the case right now.

[01:15:09] [SPEAKER_03]: I feel like they I feel like the state has an incredibly strong case. I believe that they're very confident in their case. I think they're even I think they could you know I think they're pieces of their case that I even thought were stronger one point that I feel like they have even stronger

[01:15:32] [SPEAKER_03]: points now too. And to me it was very telling when Nick McClelland for the state added the two additional murder charges because the burden to achieve that conviction is higher than the felony murder.

[01:15:53] [SPEAKER_01]: And without clear cut evidence that you know you believe you can get that conviction why in the world would you make your job harder. Yes exactly exactly it's not something you do lightly just you know to look good in front of the press it's

[01:16:21] [SPEAKER_01]: a space where we're not with traditional outlets TV stations newspapers. Right. And that's certainly been something that's been kind of weirdly important in this case the sort of online sphere around Delphi.

[01:16:33] [SPEAKER_01]: And what are your thoughts on that online sphere like I'm I often rant about the toxic elements of it but I also realize that there's a lot of good people doing good work out there so it's not it's not all good or all bad but I guess where do you

[01:16:47] [SPEAKER_03]: sort of conceptualize that especially when it comes to the impact of that on the actual case. I try to quit I mean I try to quit with everything I do in life as far as room I always try to remember that the loudest voice in the room is rarely the smartest and just because

[01:17:05] [SPEAKER_03]: someone speaks the most doesn't mean they know what they're talking about. So if I go off of that baseline I have the utmost respect for for investigative journalists for journalists that do work for major media outlets.

[01:17:20] [SPEAKER_03]: I understand there's also you know there's there's the politics to go into play with that when it comes to networks and things like that about what gets on air what you know even sometimes you know your editorial you know what you're allowed to say etc.

[01:17:37] [SPEAKER_03]: That is that does not exist in the YouTube or social media world. And I feel like that can then present the opposite problem where people can say anything they can present it as fact they can present it however they want and and there's really no

[01:17:55] [SPEAKER_03]: overview and no one to tell them they're wrong. So I do believe there's a very toxic element to it. I feel like people whether intentionally or unintentionally just get a lot of information wrong.

[01:18:10] [SPEAKER_03]: And even if they genuinely believe the information they have is correct. I think it's irresponsible to then continue to report it, especially when you have you know an entire audience that has faith in you and trust you and believes you.

[01:18:25] [SPEAKER_03]: And sometimes then even after multiple times of having your lies or mistakes brought slight they continue to support and blindly believe you. And so I feel like that's a huge disservice that is being done to true crime.

[01:18:43] [SPEAKER_03]: And and I definitely felt feel it a vibe between the traditional media and the social media aspect of true crime reporting.

[01:18:55] [SPEAKER_03]: Whereas I feel like there for the longest time was kind of a kind of scuffing your nose up at the armchair sleuths if you will.

[01:19:07] [SPEAKER_03]: And now I feel like we're starting to see more and more traditional media outlets go to and rely on certain YouTubers, podcasters things like that because they are the ones that are getting the most information and the most you know access to certain things.

[01:19:28] [SPEAKER_03]: So I feel like it's just this really weird kind of like gray area right now.

[01:19:34] [SPEAKER_01]: It really that's a good way to describe it a gray area and that's where I feel like my opinion falls in. I feel like I came into this being very optimistic about the role that sort of sis and journalists could play.

[01:19:46] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's been completely eradicated and torn up into bits because I've just seen how bad it is out there.

[01:19:52] [SPEAKER_01]: But I think where I come down to it, it's me it's not really about the outlet per se.

[01:19:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Traditional outlets have more they have lawyers they have people making sure that they're not going to do anything wrong.

[01:20:04] [SPEAKER_01]: They can still get it wrong but there's there's less of a risk there.

[01:20:07] [SPEAKER_01]: I think if a new creator is in new media is doing a good job and basically doing the practices of journalism, they should be commended for that.

[01:20:16] [SPEAKER_01]: And then that is good.

[01:20:17] [SPEAKER_01]: That is a good thing because they might be more nimble.

[01:20:19] [SPEAKER_01]: That's what Kevin and I try to do.

[01:20:20] [SPEAKER_01]: That's I know what you've tried to do.

[01:20:22] [SPEAKER_01]: So we're applying those sort of practices.

[01:20:26] [SPEAKER_01]: It's where people are not doing that and then getting things wrong, slandering others and there's no recourse.

[01:20:32] [SPEAKER_01]: That's where it's really dangerous.

[01:20:34] [SPEAKER_01]: How would you recommend for listeners who are trying to find good information in a controversial case like Delphi on how to vet what they're hearing and what sort of what should they be looking for?

[01:20:45] [SPEAKER_01]: What are some red flags that maybe they're not getting something good and what should they do if they feel like they're kind of hearing from one of these very toxic creators?

[01:20:53] [SPEAKER_01]: What's the best way of handling that?

[01:20:57] [SPEAKER_03]: The best way of handling it is to just not watch it.

[01:21:02] [SPEAKER_03]: It can be very difficult because I even remember and this was, I think there was even less toxicity years ago when I started following true crime on YouTube.

[01:21:12] [SPEAKER_03]: It's easy to be kind of sucked in or manipulated by the information that a channel is providing, especially if the person is charismatic or you feel like you enjoy the people in their community because that's also another aspect to like, you know, like if you look at the

[01:21:30] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm going to use YouTube for an example.

[01:21:33] [SPEAKER_03]: But, you know, I know that from having from being a co-host on a channel that's been around for a little bit.

[01:21:39] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I think that there are people that probably, you know, come just as much to talk in the chat with other people that are there on every live stream because it does kind of become this community.

[01:21:55] [SPEAKER_03]: And so then, you know, it's almost like in some cases the reporting or the information being provided by the host becomes secondary.

[01:22:05] [SPEAKER_03]: And that's probably a whole nother like, you know, topic that I get very meta about sometimes but I mean, I would always try to apply my common sense and my logic to anything I'm hearing.

[01:22:20] [SPEAKER_03]: It doesn't, it doesn't pass the smell test then, you know, I'd probably throw it out.

[01:22:28] [SPEAKER_03]: But again, that's very difficult to do when you're really, you know, trying to discern what you can trust and what you can't.

[01:22:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it makes me sad when I see like listeners or viewers being taken advantage of like that where it's like, it's like it's wasting their time for person foremost beyond any other cause thing and it's just like

[01:22:51] [SPEAKER_01]: the lack of respect some people do show their audiences is really overt to me, but I understand that it's not always so overt when you're in it, when you're in a community.

[01:23:00] [SPEAKER_03]: Sadly, some of some there are creators and there are there are people that report information and put out content intentionally to deceive.

[01:23:10] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, we've we've seen people in different cases that have, I mean, gone as far as to manipulate or fake audio and then claim it is, you know, a literal recording of voices of the time of victims death.

[01:23:31] [SPEAKER_03]: In the Idaho case that happened, you know, in the Delta case we've seen creators have looked forged and doctored legal documents and released them as if they were as if they were real.

[01:23:44] [SPEAKER_03]: So I mean there's also a level of intentional manipulation that happens photos are edited, their people will take all sorts of things and they will manipulate them to fit the narrative they want and they'll present it as fact.

[01:23:59] [SPEAKER_03]: And that is, I mean, disgusting in my opinion and anyone that would behave like that or do anything like that. I think has no place. I don't think they should I don't think they should be allowed to have a platform.

[01:24:15] [SPEAKER_03]: But for the most part, I think that when people are doing it, I think they're either doing it because they rely on it for their income.

[01:24:21] [SPEAKER_03]: And if they have an audience that wants to hear more about, you know, a certain subject. They tell them more about that certain subject, whether it be true or not. And that's a sad thing.

[01:24:34] [SPEAKER_01]: It really is. And I would go as far as saying, I think in many cases, it might be an income based thing. I think in other cases, it's an attention based thing.

[01:24:43] [SPEAKER_01]: They're getting attention in life that maybe they're not used to and that becomes a sort of addiction for some people.

[01:24:51] [SPEAKER_03]: Bingo.

[01:24:53] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm important. These people listen to me. I'm a role in this community. And that's not inherently, you know, awful. But if you're only driven by that, then forget about it.

[01:25:04] [SPEAKER_03]: Right. It's validating. I mean, of course it's validating. I mean, I, you know, even when I can't even when I came to Delphi and, you know,

[01:25:12] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I'm no one. I don't, you know, like it's weird. It's, you know, it's the one it's weird to like walk up and see people and have them like, like, you know, want to like introduce themselves or like want to take a picture with you.

[01:25:24] [SPEAKER_03]: That's weird. You know, I'm like, so I get uncomfortable by it. Or is like some people, I think feel a huge sense of kind of an ego boost or something.

[01:25:32] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, it feels validating when people appreciate the work you do. But, but it's not what drives me, but I do see that it can drive some people. And I can see where if you don't feel relevant in your, in your day to day life and you start doing something that then

[01:25:50] [SPEAKER_03]: all of a sudden gives you some sort of feeling of validation. You're going to want more of it like you said a drug.

[01:25:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.

[01:25:58] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to be too negative. So I do want to talk a little bit about the contrary that we kind of mentioned earlier. I mean, I remember at one point during these hearings, I was like texting you, like, like, like, I think like 11pm seeing if you could get someone to pick up Susan Hendricks and bring her like because

[01:26:16] [SPEAKER_01]: there were no Ubers in Delphi past a certain time. And so there is this kind of community where we all kind of kind of have gotten to know each other through some of these hearings and being there very early and very late.

[01:26:28] [SPEAKER_01]: And so I was wondering if you could also speak to that. And thanks again for your help with that because I know Susan very much appreciated that.

[01:26:35] [SPEAKER_03]: I was just sad that I wasn't the one personally able to go take her because I would have and I, and I, and I wasn't able to set you know how to previous engagement that evening. But I'm glad that it worked out well.

[01:26:47] [SPEAKER_03]: But I'm glad that we could get her there safely with someone we knew. And I agree with you. I knew that there were a group of people that kind of went to these things for the most part like I was told the intel I was told before I got there was that you know, you know, you could expect having a non Yale be in the front, either

[01:27:04] [SPEAKER_03]: the first or second in line. And then you know that there were you know the list of people that would probably be there. Most of which I can be a little scatterbrained sometimes I'm like who's that who's that but um

[01:27:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Same.

[01:27:20] [SPEAKER_03]: Um, so, you know, I will admit like when I walked up youtuber I'm two of the first people I noticed and I was excited. I very quickly noticed Susan Hendricks and I started to fangirl a little bit.

[01:27:35] [SPEAKER_03]: And, and, and luckily you and her were in a conversation at that moment. So I was speaking to Kevin introducing myself and just kind of making small talk. But at the same time I was like, I want to say hi to Susan Hendricks.

[01:27:48] [SPEAKER_03]: She was the only person that I really was like kind of fangirling over a little bit. And it's silly now just because I really like after getting to know her for three days, she's so down to earth and she was so professional and so poised.

[01:28:04] [SPEAKER_03]: That was something I noticed about her that she did not lose that sense of poise at any point. And I am and, and she's so friendly and caring and it was sincere you could tell was genuine.

[01:28:16] [SPEAKER_03]: I appreciated that. But then there's this whole group of people that just come from the community and communities around Indiana and other places people from Canada, people from other states that care about these girls that care about these families and that just want to be there to support them in court.

[01:28:35] [SPEAKER_03]: I know in previous hearings there, you know, have also been quite a bit of a people that are there that are more naysayers to the to the prosecutor or the judge. So I expected there to be more of that as well.

[01:28:53] [SPEAKER_03]: And, and there were of course people that were varying opinions. But I felt like there was a sense of camaraderie all across the people in line. And it was really fun just getting to know people and having like small talking.

[01:29:07] [SPEAKER_03]: And it was refreshing. And I thought something else that was nice was with some of the past behavior that we've seen come out of these hearings by people outside of the courthouse or inside the courthouse, that that I felt like this hearing particular there was none of that.

[01:29:25] [SPEAKER_03]: I felt like there was a real sense of and what the right word would be.

[01:29:31] [SPEAKER_03]: Respect, just respect. And there was, you know, people that, you know, feel differently about things. You know, I didn't think I didn't see anyone getting into an argument or fight or anything like that and everyone was respectful and kind and

[01:29:44] [SPEAKER_01]: I think I think it was really the sense of respect that I got to from the crowd was was very palpable. And I really appreciate that because as you said, it's not always been like that. I do hope that bodes well for trial that people with that respect.

[01:30:00] [SPEAKER_03]: I hope so as well.

[01:30:02] [SPEAKER_03]: Now, I will the only the only thing that I was displeased about not to be negative is that, you know, there were a few instances inside the courtroom where even though I know that the you know one could hear it outside of the the surrounding audience but you know, if you're

[01:30:30] [SPEAKER_03]: you are having people laugh about the appearance of someone or telling people that, you know, the, you know, that they are corrupt cop or tomato face. You know, I feel like those are things that maybe

[01:30:46] [SPEAKER_03]: are not appropriate to be said inside of a courtroom to other people to make them laugh at a time that we're hearing testimony about two dead children.

[01:30:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, doing mystery science theater 3000 about a murder trial and blighted link to murdered kids. I didn't even know that happened so when we go off the record I will be asking you some questions that's really appalling.

[01:31:10] [SPEAKER_03]: I thought so as well.

[01:31:11] [SPEAKER_01]: So I want to now take some time. We've talked about sort of what happened and also the context of all this in an online space. I wanted to ask you to kind of follow, you know, kind of conclude this.

[01:31:22] [SPEAKER_01]: What sort of questions remain for you? What will you be looking for as we go into this sort of mysterious Friday hearing and just questions that linger as we go towards trial?

[01:31:34] [SPEAKER_03]: I of course would like, you know, I'm waiting with bated breath to hear whether or not such goal is going to allow the third party defense. I feel like that's going to determine probably where we see this case go and what steps take or take

[01:31:53] [SPEAKER_03]: and next in it. I would like to, I would really like to hope that the behavior I saw by the judge and all of the attorneys over those three days remains as professional and courteous as it was in those three days because I felt like for the first time

[01:32:18] [SPEAKER_03]: I felt like we were in a room with a group of people that were ready to proceed and act like adults. And I credit it to the fact that they both hired a female attorney to their team, but that's just me.

[01:32:35] [SPEAKER_03]: But no, I do. I feel like I feel like I feel like I saw adults standing in front of that room and that it gives me hope that these are these people can get to trial and get it done.

[01:32:54] [SPEAKER_03]: Now that may all change after Friday. So I do have a few thoughts about what Friday, you know, could be about but of course it's a it's a mystery to most people and it would be speculative of me to say as far as the closed session.

[01:33:12] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I think we've all heard some wild rumors. I personally have believed since we left the hearings that and this was actually my very biggest takeaway from the hearings was I felt very uncertain about how someone makes 61 direct confessions.

[01:33:33] [SPEAKER_03]: And yet somehow their attorneys are never made aware. And if they were, I would like to know how and under what circumstances because there's a difference between me as a defendant telling my attorney that I'm guilty.

[01:33:51] [SPEAKER_03]: That's different than me telling my attorney that I'm guilty and I want to formally change my plea to guilty. And then being convinced not to or being ignored, or saying, Oh, you're just your state of psychosis and we can't, you know, that's not smart to do because we

[01:34:15] [SPEAKER_03]: can't count one what you're saying is true. But yet we're not going to even question your competency. So if if Richard Allen made any formal request to change his plea, I would like to know under what circumstances that took place and why it was never brought to the court.

[01:34:39] [SPEAKER_03]: And I'm not saying that Brad and Andy did anything wrong. I'm saying I think that it warrants the question. And I feel like after watching the family of Richard Allen for three days, I felt there was 100% confidence in those attorneys by his family.

[01:34:59] [SPEAKER_03]: And I worry that if Richard Allen has the closest people in the world to him all condensing him of one thing and telling him one thing, I just hope that they're doing it in his best interest and not against his wishes.

[01:35:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and not by feeding him bad information like, Oh, the state has nothing against you. That's not yes.

[01:35:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Right. This has been delightful speaking with you. I wanted to ask you open it up for you. Is there anything you wanted to mention or that we didn't ask about that you wanted to know during think it's important for people to understand where we are in this case right now?

[01:35:33] [SPEAKER_03]: Just that I hope that people remember as this case in the trial gets closer and closer. And the focus is, you know, becoming more and more on the accused, as it does with every trial.

[01:35:46] [SPEAKER_03]: I really do hope that at the center of this all, you know, we're the 13 and a 14 year old girl that had their lives taken, regardless of who did that or how you believe it happened.

[01:36:04] [SPEAKER_03]: We all know it happened. And we know that because of it, we have multiple families that have now been broken and that have now been destroyed and have spent almost eight years trying to pick up those pieces.

[01:36:16] [SPEAKER_03]: And they're never going to fit back into the place that they should. So use your words wisely and choose compassion over vitriol and please just, you know, have some integrity.

[01:36:29] [SPEAKER_03]: And you don't have to say everything that comes into your mind. So just try to be respectful to the whole process and remember that those girls are at the center of this.

[01:36:40] [SPEAKER_03]: And you know, be careful where you get your information from.

[01:36:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much, Aspen.

[01:36:46] [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you.

[01:36:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Thanks so much for listening to the murder sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us at murdersheet at gmail.com.

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