The Delphi Murders: Richard Allen on Trial: Day Five: The Driver, the Autopsy, and the Phones

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Content Warning, this episode contains discussion of the brutal murder of two girls. And in this episode, just so everyone knows, we will also be discussing autopsy photos. So if that would be problematic for you, maybe consider skipping this one.

[00:00:19] [SPEAKER_01]: We're not going to go into a lot of detail.

[00:00:20] [SPEAKER_00]: No, we're not. But it's still just generally upsetting.

[00:00:23] [SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[00:00:24] [SPEAKER_00]: So today is October 23rd, 2024. And it's day five of the Delphi Murders Trial. Of course, this is has a Delphi resident and former CVS worker Richard Allen facing four counts of murder for the murders of Liberty German and Abigail Williams back on February 13th, 2017.

[00:00:48] [SPEAKER_00]: And we've been covering the trial and giving you guys some updates. So today we will be, I guess, giving some more.

[00:01:05] [SPEAKER_00]: My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist.

[00:01:08] [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

[00:01:10] [SPEAKER_00]: And this is The Murder Sheet.

[00:01:12] [SPEAKER_01]: We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases.

[00:01:19] [SPEAKER_01]: We're the murder sheet.

[00:01:21] [SPEAKER_00]: And this is The Delphi Murders, Richard Allen on trial, day five, the driver, the autopsy, and the phones.

[00:02:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Let's get right started. Let's get started right away.

[00:02:18] [SPEAKER_01]: The first witness of the day was Sarah Carball.

[00:02:22] [SPEAKER_01]: And you might recognize that name, or if you don't, you might recognize her by a kind of a nickname she's been given.

[00:02:30] [SPEAKER_01]: She's the muddy and bloody witness.

[00:02:32] [SPEAKER_01]: This is the woman who said as she was driving not far from the vicinity of the crime scene shortly after the murders occurred,

[00:02:41] [SPEAKER_01]: she sees a man walking down the road who has mud and blood on him.

[00:02:47] [SPEAKER_01]: And before today, we'd only gotten a little bit of her story through the probable cause affidavit.

[00:02:54] [SPEAKER_01]: But today, we got to hear her story from her own lips.

[00:03:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. And so what Miss Carball testified to is that she often visited the Moan on High Bridge.

[00:03:07] [SPEAKER_00]: She'd gone on there like three times when she was younger, although she, quote, chickened out the last time.

[00:03:13] [SPEAKER_01]: In terms of crossing it.

[00:03:14] [SPEAKER_00]: And ended up crawling her way back.

[00:03:17] [SPEAKER_01]: But as an adult, she often visited because she had dogs.

[00:03:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Unfriendly dogs.

[00:03:22] [SPEAKER_01]: And...

[00:03:23] [SPEAKER_00]: Which I can relate to because our dog is very friendly to people, but not so friendly to other dogs.

[00:03:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.

[00:03:29] [SPEAKER_01]: And so the trails around that area were often not too full of people.

[00:03:35] [SPEAKER_01]: And so she would go there almost every day to walk her dogs.

[00:03:39] [SPEAKER_00]: Mm-hmm.

[00:03:42] [SPEAKER_00]: And so she ended up, you know, just sort of because of that, I guess, she ended up playing a pretty huge role in this whole bizarre and twisting case.

[00:03:54] [SPEAKER_00]: So she talked about how she had the day off from work on February 13th, 2017.

[00:04:01] [SPEAKER_00]: And she remembers it being very warm.

[00:04:03] [SPEAKER_00]: And she wanted to sort of check out the trails and see if there were a lot of people there.

[00:04:07] [SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, seeing if it might be a good time to take the dogs out.

[00:04:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Again, the dogs aren't very friendly.

[00:04:11] [SPEAKER_01]: She actually drives by a couple of times checking it out.

[00:04:16] [SPEAKER_01]: And when she drove by, she...

[00:04:20] [SPEAKER_00]: She noticed a group of people?

[00:04:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, first of all, she drove by and it seemed crowded.

[00:04:25] [SPEAKER_01]: And the other time, it seemed less crowded.

[00:04:27] [SPEAKER_01]: And so she decides to go with her dogs.

[00:04:30] [SPEAKER_01]: And as she's parking, she sees a group of people who look kind of stressed.

[00:04:35] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, including what she said, I believe, a girl with bright blonde hair.

[00:04:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[00:04:40] [SPEAKER_00]: Wearing sort of a bright outfit or something.

[00:04:45] [SPEAKER_00]: And so, yeah, that was something that seemed odd.

[00:04:49] [SPEAKER_00]: And then she, I guess, drove off.

[00:04:54] [SPEAKER_00]: And that's when...

[00:04:55] [SPEAKER_01]: She is driving down the road.

[00:04:58] [SPEAKER_01]: And she sees a man covered in mud and blood walking by the side of the road.

[00:05:07] [SPEAKER_01]: And in her account, she is driving towards where he is.

[00:05:12] [SPEAKER_01]: He is facing her and walking in her direction.

[00:05:17] [SPEAKER_01]: And she looks right at him.

[00:05:20] [SPEAKER_01]: But he does not make eye contact.

[00:05:23] [SPEAKER_01]: She estimated she was driving about 30 to 35 miles per hour.

[00:05:28] [SPEAKER_01]: And just because the road is, I guess, maybe a little narrow, she says she slowed down even from that speed to avoid hitting this man.

[00:05:36] [SPEAKER_01]: She did not recognize him.

[00:05:39] [SPEAKER_01]: And at that time, she did not know that Libby and Abby were missing.

[00:05:45] [SPEAKER_00]: She said, quote, his demeanor was very sketchy, end quote.

[00:05:49] [SPEAKER_00]: She talked about how he was walking sort of like with his shoulders hunched up.

[00:05:55] [SPEAKER_00]: I think face downturned, sort of like someone who did not want to be observed and kind of shuffling.

[00:06:06] [SPEAKER_01]: And she mentioned that when she saw how...

[00:06:10] [SPEAKER_01]: When she saw the mud and blood on him, her assumption was that he had fallen.

[00:06:15] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that he had taken a tumble down.

[00:06:18] [SPEAKER_00]: As we've talked about, these trails have some pretty steep areas.

[00:06:23] [SPEAKER_00]: Someone could fall, get injured.

[00:06:25] [SPEAKER_00]: And she thought that that may have been what happened at first before she heard about the kidnapping through an Amber Alert.

[00:06:32] [SPEAKER_01]: And she described that it was, you know, a winter's day.

[00:06:36] [SPEAKER_01]: The sun goes down early.

[00:06:38] [SPEAKER_01]: And she described pretty memorably that the orange hue of the setting sun was behind her as she passed him.

[00:06:48] [SPEAKER_01]: So then she goes home.

[00:06:50] [SPEAKER_01]: She hears about the missing girls.

[00:06:53] [SPEAKER_01]: And at some point subsequent to that, she sees the image that the police release of Bridge got.

[00:07:00] [SPEAKER_01]: And of course, we talked yesterday about how that image was created.

[00:07:05] [SPEAKER_01]: But she sees this image and she realizes that the person she saw was, in fact, Bridge Guy.

[00:07:13] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[00:07:14] [SPEAKER_00]: And this is so interesting because again and again, we've heard these witnesses have issues because they have disparate descriptions of Bridge Guy to a certain extent.

[00:07:22] [SPEAKER_00]: But they're all convinced that they saw the person in the photo.

[00:07:25] [SPEAKER_00]: And in the beginning of all this, I indicated that regardless of whose sketch does what or whatnot, if all the witnesses are in agreement that they saw the man in Libby's video, then that is a significant consensus that could actually really work in favor of the prosecution, in my opinion.

[00:07:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Because then it becomes a matter of putting Richard Allen in that blue Carhartt jacket on the bridge.

[00:07:48] [SPEAKER_01]: And now here's something that might bother you a bit because the obvious question is, okay, the girls are missing.

[00:07:55] [SPEAKER_01]: They've been killed.

[00:07:56] [SPEAKER_01]: And she realizes she saw a man covered with mud and blood who was Bridge Guy leaving the scene.

[00:08:03] [SPEAKER_01]: What does she do?

[00:08:05] [SPEAKER_00]: She does not report it immediately.

[00:08:07] [SPEAKER_01]: She waits three weeks.

[00:08:10] [SPEAKER_01]: And then as it turns out, at some point about that time, law enforcement in Delphi actually set up kind of a roadblock where they were stopping people and asking them if they had any information about the murder.

[00:08:27] [SPEAKER_01]: And she described the reasons why she had waited is that she overthinks things.

[00:08:34] [SPEAKER_01]: She panics.

[00:08:35] [SPEAKER_01]: She was traumatized by another murder in her life.

[00:08:38] [SPEAKER_01]: And she was just worried about what would happen if she came forward.

[00:08:43] [SPEAKER_00]: She spoke about dealing with really, really intense anxiety issues.

[00:08:47] [SPEAKER_00]: So there's sort of a mental health component here.

[00:08:50] [SPEAKER_00]: And she also indicated that multiple times, very overtly on the stand, she didn't want to be a part of this story.

[00:08:58] [SPEAKER_00]: This was not something she felt equipped to do, especially then.

[00:09:03] [SPEAKER_00]: And she kind of was even gesturing to the jury like, yes, I was a chicken.

[00:09:07] [SPEAKER_00]: She was very, very outspoken about that.

[00:09:12] [SPEAKER_01]: And then in the final part of her direct examination.

[00:09:16] [SPEAKER_00]: Which was done by, of course, Deputy Prosecutor Stacy Diener.

[00:09:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Who did a great job.

[00:09:20] [SPEAKER_00]: She did a great job, yeah.

[00:09:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Ms. Carball mentions that she reviewed some of the security footage from the Hoosier Harvester store.

[00:09:32] [SPEAKER_01]: They had a camera set up that captured some traffic going by, including some cars that were identifiable.

[00:09:39] [SPEAKER_01]: And so they were able to pinpoint, okay, that's her car with her help.

[00:09:45] [SPEAKER_01]: And that allowed them to figure out exactly where this encounter occurred.

[00:09:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Or when it occurred, pardon me.

[00:09:53] [SPEAKER_00]: And just, sorry, I'm sure most of you who are listening know this.

[00:09:57] [SPEAKER_00]: But I feel like I should mention it.

[00:09:59] [SPEAKER_00]: Probably should have mentioned this at the top.

[00:10:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Sarah Carball, we mentioned she saw the Muddy Bloody Man.

[00:10:04] [SPEAKER_00]: But she's also the source for the first released sketch.

[00:10:10] [SPEAKER_00]: Which is, again, it was the second one drawn up, but the first one released.

[00:10:15] [SPEAKER_00]: And it is the one that depicts the person known as Bridge Guy as an older man.

[00:10:21] [SPEAKER_00]: Wearing some kind of vague hat with facial hair.

[00:10:25] [SPEAKER_00]: So it's one that I think a lot of people have felt over time maybe looks a little bit more like Richard Allen.

[00:10:33] [SPEAKER_00]: There's certainly differences.

[00:10:34] [SPEAKER_00]: But certainly more than the younger man sketch that came from Betsy Blair, another witness, that was drawn first but released later.

[00:10:41] [SPEAKER_00]: So that's, this is where, like, it's just fascinating to kind of see all of this.

[00:10:47] [SPEAKER_00]: There's been so much speculation for years about what these sketches mean, where they came from, whatnot.

[00:10:52] [SPEAKER_00]: And now we're kind of seeing the genesis of all of it play out on the stand.

[00:10:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Now it's time for the cross-examination by Andrew Baldwin.

[00:11:02] [SPEAKER_01]: And things got interesting here.

[00:11:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Things got absolutely wild.

[00:11:06] [SPEAKER_00]: I always tell people, hey, you know, court is a lot more boring than you think.

[00:11:12] [SPEAKER_00]: We've all watched the courtroom dramas.

[00:11:14] [SPEAKER_00]: We've all watched the kind of Perry Mason yelling at someone or, you know, those shows are really fun.

[00:11:20] [SPEAKER_00]: But honestly, like, the drama is very much more of a seasoning than a main course when it comes to most courtrooms.

[00:11:28] [SPEAKER_00]: But this one, this one got heated.

[00:11:30] [SPEAKER_00]: There were quips.

[00:11:32] [SPEAKER_00]: There were statements made.

[00:11:34] [SPEAKER_00]: I do want to say, and I'll be curious to hear what you say, I think, I guess I'll save my opinion for a while.

[00:11:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Why don't we describe what happened and then we'll talk about our opinions.

[00:11:43] [SPEAKER_01]: So it started with Andrew Baldwin's mentioning, well, you know, the first time you gave an interview, you mentioned the mud on the clothes 11 times.

[00:11:53] [SPEAKER_01]: You never mentioned seeing blood on the clothes.

[00:11:56] [SPEAKER_01]: And she said, well, I believe I did in fact say that there was blood on the clothes in that first interview.

[00:12:02] [SPEAKER_01]: The transcript says I was mumbling at some points.

[00:12:05] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think it was those points I was talking about blood.

[00:12:09] [SPEAKER_00]: She said I was mumbling.

[00:12:10] [SPEAKER_00]: I was rambling because I was nervous, essentially.

[00:12:13] [SPEAKER_01]: But apparently the word blood does not actually appear in the transcripts.

[00:12:19] [SPEAKER_01]: And then Baldwin said, well, what about the second interview?

[00:12:22] [SPEAKER_01]: In that one, you mentioned mud 13 times and you never mentioned blood.

[00:12:27] [SPEAKER_01]: And it apparently a portion of this interview was not preserved.

[00:12:37] [SPEAKER_01]: It was lost.

[00:12:39] [SPEAKER_00]: This seems to be part.

[00:12:41] [SPEAKER_00]: And so this ties back to something we reported earlier.

[00:12:44] [SPEAKER_00]: There was an incident where the Delphi police station ended up losing because because of some tech glitch that just happened.

[00:12:54] [SPEAKER_00]: It ended up losing interviews with Brad Holder.

[00:12:57] [SPEAKER_00]: And we were told numerous other people in the early days in the investigation.

[00:13:00] [SPEAKER_00]: So it seems like that particular talk with Sarah Carbaugh may have been part of that and, you know, that sort of loss that we had already heard about.

[00:13:09] [SPEAKER_00]: So that that may have been, you know, sacrifice.

[00:13:11] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm just speculating here.

[00:13:12] [SPEAKER_00]: It's possible it was totally unrelated.

[00:13:14] [SPEAKER_01]: But don't know.

[00:13:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Then talk about the third interview you just mentioned.

[00:13:19] [SPEAKER_01]: You never mentioned mud.

[00:13:20] [SPEAKER_01]: You just said blood.

[00:13:21] [SPEAKER_01]: So I think maybe he was trying to suggest that she was changing her story as time goes along.

[00:13:28] [SPEAKER_01]: And she insisted that she had not.

[00:13:31] [SPEAKER_01]: And then Baldwin said at one point, you said that you saw this man and you thought he had fallen perhaps even down a cliff.

[00:13:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Did you stop to help the guy?

[00:13:41] [SPEAKER_00]: This was a great.

[00:13:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:13:42] [SPEAKER_01]: And Sarah Carbaugh responded, no, I'm a woman.

[00:13:45] [SPEAKER_01]: You don't stop to help random men.

[00:13:48] [SPEAKER_01]: And I saw a lot of women in the courtroom kind of smiling and nodding at that.

[00:13:56] [SPEAKER_00]: She said some things.

[00:13:58] [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, I, this is, this is what I wrote at one point.

[00:14:02] [SPEAKER_00]: She kind of like, she got kind of heated.

[00:14:04] [SPEAKER_00]: She said, quote, I saw a bridge man.

[00:14:07] [SPEAKER_00]: And, and then she said something.

[00:14:09] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't, I didn't catch the whole quote, but it was something to the effect of like, I know you're just doing your job.

[00:14:14] [SPEAKER_00]: But so to be clear, Sarah Carbaugh has obviously been deposed by this defense team.

[00:14:19] [SPEAKER_00]: And, and you, you kind of sense that there was some.

[00:14:21] [SPEAKER_01]: The relationship is not good.

[00:14:23] [SPEAKER_00]: No, I wrote, uh, I wrote down in my notes, Andrew Baldwin keeping it cool, which is probably smart.

[00:14:28] [SPEAKER_00]: And then I just wrote, OMG, because things just, things got heated.

[00:14:33] [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe.

[00:14:33] [SPEAKER_01]: He was asking her all sorts of questions.

[00:14:36] [SPEAKER_01]: And Sarah Carbaugh said, well, you guys know more about this than I do.

[00:14:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Gesturing to the jury.

[00:14:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Outside of this testimony, I want nothing to do with this case.

[00:14:46] [SPEAKER_01]: But Baldwin at one point claimed that in some interview or with law enforcement, apparently, that she had claimed that a bridge guy had very effeminate eyes.

[00:14:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, God.

[00:14:59] [SPEAKER_01]: And Sarah Carbaugh said, you're romanticizing.

[00:15:03] [SPEAKER_01]: And he said, well, you said it.

[00:15:05] [SPEAKER_01]: You want to refresh your recollections?

[00:15:06] [SPEAKER_01]: And she says, no, I'm good.

[00:15:08] [SPEAKER_01]: She was obviously very fed up with Baldwin.

[00:15:12] [SPEAKER_00]: He questioned saying, well, you said the bridge guy looked like he just slaughtered a hog.

[00:15:16] [SPEAKER_00]: And she said, quote, that's something I use as an analogy.

[00:15:21] [SPEAKER_00]: And, um, like, what was it?

[00:15:24] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I love that.

[00:15:25] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not going to stop and help a random man.

[00:15:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, uh, he also challenged her on the fact that she didn't come forward immediately, that she had waited three weeks.

[00:15:36] [SPEAKER_01]: And at that point, she raised her hand and said, I'm the cowardly lion here, a chicken.

[00:15:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, she, she was, she was very self-critical about that decision to the jury.

[00:15:47] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, and, you know, he questioned her on also saying, she said that, uh, there was a curl to bridge guy's hair.

[00:15:56] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, and she clarified that, you know, this, she was, you know, she saw him briefly.

[00:16:02] [SPEAKER_00]: She passed him on the road and, and he only had a little bit of hair peeping out.

[00:16:06] [SPEAKER_00]: So she said it was, it was a bit hard, uh, to tell.

[00:16:09] [SPEAKER_00]: I noticed one of the male jurors definitely smiling while she was, uh, talking.

[00:16:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, is this the part where she was asked how far away she was from him?

[00:16:20] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, no, they got to remember there was, there was cell phone stuff first.

[00:16:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, go ahead.

[00:16:24] [SPEAKER_00]: She, they're talking about like, uh, like, you know, she started going off on like, you

[00:16:28] [SPEAKER_00]: know, almost like I, I'm, I was definitely there.

[00:16:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Like my cell phone pinged off the tower.

[00:16:35] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, like everyone I know in town was being like chased down at their cell phones had gotten,

[00:16:40] [SPEAKER_00]: you know, like kind of like been, been in one of these, uh, sort of tower things.

[00:16:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, yeah, it was, it was wild.

[00:16:47] [SPEAKER_00]: She said she saw him for about 30 seconds at most.

[00:16:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[00:16:51] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, because she's basically like, she's seeing him in the, in the, in, you know, ahead of

[00:16:56] [SPEAKER_00]: her and she's driving slowly and then she's kind of passing him.

[00:17:01] [SPEAKER_00]: And then I think they got into a distance.

[00:17:04] [SPEAKER_00]: I was, I was confused.

[00:17:06] [SPEAKER_00]: I was a little bit confused and maybe someone can refresh our memories.

[00:17:10] [SPEAKER_00]: Although frankly, we're not really checking anything right now.

[00:17:12] [SPEAKER_00]: So we're just, we're going to roll with it.

[00:17:14] [SPEAKER_00]: I was a little bit confused about like what side of the street she was on.

[00:17:18] [SPEAKER_00]: She mentioned that this, uh, I believe it, I believe it's the County road 300 North.

[00:17:24] [SPEAKER_01]: I think so.

[00:17:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, she mentioned it being very narrow, but if there were two pickup trucks side by side,

[00:17:32] [SPEAKER_00]: like some of the wheels would be like, you know, like maybe that would be pretty crowded.

[00:17:36] [SPEAKER_00]: Is that something she said?

[00:17:37] [SPEAKER_00]: So, so she said it's a very, so I don't know whether she was on, I, I, I thought originally

[00:17:44] [SPEAKER_00]: from the documents that he was on one side and she was driving the opposite way.

[00:17:48] [SPEAKER_00]: So they'd be on opposite sides of the road.

[00:17:50] [SPEAKER_00]: But I guess if it's a narrow road, I don't know.

[00:17:53] [SPEAKER_01]: And actually looking ahead, uh, the question about distance comes up from juror questions.

[00:17:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh yeah.

[00:17:58] [SPEAKER_01]: So let's go right into, uh, redirect.

[00:18:02] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, she actually, I think this is when she kind of modeled his walk a little bit or was

[00:18:08] [SPEAKER_01]: that earlier?

[00:18:09] [SPEAKER_00]: She did.

[00:18:09] [SPEAKER_00]: No, yeah.

[00:18:10] [SPEAKER_00]: One point.

[00:18:10] [SPEAKER_01]: She kind of hunches her head up or scrunches her shoulders up around her herself, puts

[00:18:16] [SPEAKER_01]: her hands in her pockets.

[00:18:17] [SPEAKER_01]: She slumps and she says he was kind of curled into himself.

[00:18:21] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:18:21] [SPEAKER_00]: She said that, uh, also she was wearing a hat, but she said, I'm, I'm pretty much burned

[00:18:25] [SPEAKER_00]: out on the hats.

[00:18:26] [SPEAKER_00]: She described going through different types of hats with police as basically like flipping

[00:18:30] [SPEAKER_00]: through Tinder profiles, but with hats because she looked at so many hats and she said it

[00:18:35] [SPEAKER_00]: was a weird hat that she wouldn't, she wouldn't really think of someone wearing in her life,

[00:18:40] [SPEAKER_00]: but she, she believed he was wearing some kind of hat.

[00:18:44] [SPEAKER_00]: And, uh, yeah, let's see it.

[00:18:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, so at this point they, they had a big picture of bridge guy, uh, out and, uh, also

[00:18:57] [SPEAKER_01]: some of the lawyers were looking at pictures of bridge guy and it's the picture you've seen,

[00:19:02] [SPEAKER_00]: uh, all over the place on the bridge where he's, he's strolling.

[00:19:06] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:19:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:19:07] [SPEAKER_01]: And I was really interested to see that Richard Allen was staring.

[00:19:14] [SPEAKER_01]: He was holding in his hands a picture of bridge guy and he was just kind of staring at it,

[00:19:20] [SPEAKER_01]: uh, transfixed.

[00:19:21] [SPEAKER_01]: And so that was an odd moment.

[00:19:24] [SPEAKER_01]: And what would love to know what he was thinking.

[00:19:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:19:28] [SPEAKER_01]: He was staring at that picture because if you believe the prosecution's case, he's looking

[00:19:34] [SPEAKER_01]: at a picture of himself just before he committed a double homicide.

[00:19:40] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:19:41] [SPEAKER_00]: His, his behavior in court has been getting more and more back to its pretrial state where

[00:19:48] [SPEAKER_00]: there's been some kind of strangeness to it, frankly, which I don't think we should necessarily

[00:19:53] [SPEAKER_00]: read into because I think sometimes people behave strangely when they're very stressed, but I

[00:19:57] [SPEAKER_00]: do observe it.

[00:19:58] [SPEAKER_00]: And so we'll, we'll note it without necessarily drawing conclusions.

[00:20:03] [SPEAKER_00]: It is something to note though, because I don't think that's always super helpful to

[00:20:07] [SPEAKER_00]: do in front of a jury.

[00:20:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[00:20:10] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, you, you want to, you want to make the jury not feel uncomfortable.

[00:20:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Then there was a recross exam from Andrew Baldwin.

[00:20:20] [SPEAKER_01]: He's talking again about what you say.

[00:20:22] [SPEAKER_01]: You said all these things in the second interview, but there's no record of that.

[00:20:25] [SPEAKER_01]: And Cardball said, well, that video is missing and that's not my fault.

[00:20:30] [SPEAKER_01]: And then it was time for some questions from the jurors.

[00:20:34] [SPEAKER_01]: The first question a juror asked was, what was your age in February, 2017?

[00:20:41] [SPEAKER_01]: And she said, well, I'm 35 now.

[00:20:44] [SPEAKER_01]: So I was maybe 26 then.

[00:20:47] [SPEAKER_01]: And then there was the question Anya just mentioned, how wide is the road?

[00:20:51] [SPEAKER_01]: She said it is a country road.

[00:20:53] [SPEAKER_01]: So if two pickup trucks are there at the same time, they're going to have some tires off the

[00:20:58] [SPEAKER_01]: road.

[00:21:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Another question was, how did you conclude that what you saw was blood spatter?

[00:21:07] [SPEAKER_01]: And she said, well, I saw it.

[00:21:08] [SPEAKER_01]: And she was asked how obvious was the blood.

[00:21:11] [SPEAKER_01]: And she said, blood when it is fresh is bright red.

[00:21:16] [SPEAKER_01]: And so it really stood out to her.

[00:21:19] [SPEAKER_00]: I think she indicated he had lighter color jeans on.

[00:21:21] [SPEAKER_00]: So it was more visible.

[00:21:23] [SPEAKER_00]: And I just want not to be an annoying person, but I know we've gotten corrected on this in

[00:21:26] [SPEAKER_00]: the past.

[00:21:27] [SPEAKER_00]: It's not blood splatter.

[00:21:28] [SPEAKER_00]: It's blood spatter.

[00:21:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Did I say splatter?

[00:21:32] [SPEAKER_00]: It's spatter.

[00:21:34] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know what you said.

[00:21:35] [SPEAKER_00]: I thought you said splatter.

[00:21:37] [SPEAKER_00]: If you didn't, I apologize.

[00:21:38] [SPEAKER_00]: I just, we've gotten corrected by that, by people.

[00:21:41] [SPEAKER_01]: One of us has.

[00:21:43] [SPEAKER_01]: No, we both did, sir.

[00:21:44] [SPEAKER_01]: So then the final question was, how close to the man were you?

[00:21:49] [SPEAKER_01]: And she said at the closest point, they were less than three feet apart.

[00:21:55] [SPEAKER_01]: And kind of testily, she said, well, I didn't take a ruler out when I was driving.

[00:22:02] [SPEAKER_00]: I just want to say, I just want to say, like, I didn't know at first how this went down.

[00:22:07] [SPEAKER_00]: I was like, I, this was, this was a roller coaster.

[00:22:11] [SPEAKER_00]: I, I was kind of back and forth about whether it played better for the prosecution and the

[00:22:15] [SPEAKER_00]: defense.

[00:22:16] [SPEAKER_00]: And frankly, I don't know.

[00:22:17] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know at this point, but I will say two observations.

[00:22:21] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'd be curious if you agree with, with either.

[00:22:23] [SPEAKER_00]: First of all, I thought Andrew Baldwin did a good job with the cross-examination.

[00:22:28] [SPEAKER_00]: He got, he got some important questions there about, about things.

[00:22:32] [SPEAKER_00]: He got, you know, the whole like, well, you didn't mention, you emphasize the mud first

[00:22:36] [SPEAKER_00]: and not the blood.

[00:22:37] [SPEAKER_00]: I thought he, he certainly was not friendly at all.

[00:22:42] [SPEAKER_00]: There seemed to be like some hostility there, but it was, it was, it was muted and it was

[00:22:46] [SPEAKER_00]: relatively patient.

[00:22:47] [SPEAKER_00]: All I could think is goodness gracious.

[00:22:49] [SPEAKER_00]: If Brad Rose, you were doing this cross-examination, there would be, this would blow up even more.

[00:22:57] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think, I think Baldwin not losing his temper was, was good.

[00:23:02] [SPEAKER_00]: I think that what might've really tipped it over to being total chaos and also bad for the

[00:23:07] [SPEAKER_00]: defense.

[00:23:08] [SPEAKER_00]: So I thought he did a good job.

[00:23:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, I was, I was impressed with that.

[00:23:11] [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, and I also say Sarah Carball was absolutely a favorite of the gallery from the people we

[00:23:16] [SPEAKER_00]: talked to.

[00:23:17] [SPEAKER_00]: People were, were definitely like she did so well.

[00:23:21] [SPEAKER_00]: I think people kind of expect more of that sass.

[00:23:24] [SPEAKER_00]: Obviously this would never fly with an expert witness or like a police officer, but when

[00:23:29] [SPEAKER_00]: it's a civilian who's basically had enough of being deposed, I think a lot of people

[00:23:34] [SPEAKER_00]: really, a lot of people like that.

[00:23:36] [SPEAKER_00]: And they liked some of the quips she was putting out there.

[00:23:38] [SPEAKER_00]: So she, she very much, uh, carried the morning with, with what she did.

[00:23:43] [SPEAKER_00]: And, uh, I thought Stacy Diener also to give her credit too.

[00:23:46] [SPEAKER_00]: She did a good job of kind of reeling her in a few times when she started to go like, you

[00:23:51] [SPEAKER_00]: know, okay, like, don't like, just focus on your experience.

[00:23:53] [SPEAKER_00]: So I thought, um, yeah, it was just a lot of people afterwards did, you know, cause I

[00:23:58] [SPEAKER_00]: was asking, uh, some of the other folks in the media and in the, um, just the public,

[00:24:03] [SPEAKER_00]: like, what did you think of that?

[00:24:05] [SPEAKER_00]: And, uh, what I heard was very positive about, about Sarah.

[00:24:09] [SPEAKER_00]: So that's something to report.

[00:24:10] [SPEAKER_00]: What do you, what do you think about both of those things?

[00:24:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, I agree with you.

[00:24:14] [SPEAKER_01]: But before we leave the topic of Sarah, I wanted to mention one thing.

[00:24:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, so when a person, uh, you get subpoenaed to appear as a witness in a trial like this.

[00:24:26] [SPEAKER_01]: And so one routine thing that happens after each of these witnesses testify, and I don't

[00:24:33] [SPEAKER_01]: think we've noted it because it's very routine, is that, uh, one of the lawyers will say, judge,

[00:24:40] [SPEAKER_01]: can we release this witness from the subpoena?

[00:24:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:24:42] [SPEAKER_01]: That means their obligations are over, they can, they're done.

[00:24:48] [SPEAKER_01]: And usually that is granted, but they, uh, prosecutor Diener asked for Sarah to be released

[00:24:55] [SPEAKER_01]: from her subpoena and Andrew Baldwin said no.

[00:24:58] [SPEAKER_01]: So this certainly raises the possibility that this is not the last we have seen from Sarah

[00:25:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Carbaugh in this trial.

[00:25:07] [SPEAKER_01]: And the defense intends to do something with her when they come to present their own case.

[00:25:13] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, they're going to need, they're going to, yeah, they're going to need some luck with

[00:25:17] [SPEAKER_00]: that after this first round, I would say.

[00:25:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:25:20] [SPEAKER_01]: I honestly don't know.

[00:25:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Usually you see a witness and think, oh, this really helped the prosecution or this really

[00:25:25] [SPEAKER_01]: helped the defense.

[00:25:27] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know who this helped.

[00:25:28] [SPEAKER_01]: It was, uh, interesting.

[00:25:29] [SPEAKER_00]: It seemed kind of like a draw, but to me, ultimately much of this is, is, is a bit academic

[00:25:35] [SPEAKER_00]: because I think we're seeing the building up of the bridge guy thing.

[00:25:40] [SPEAKER_00]: And I really think, I know it might sound weird, but witnesses are so shaky in general

[00:25:45] [SPEAKER_00]: that I think it is more important that people are gravitating towards the image of bridge

[00:25:50] [SPEAKER_00]: guy from Liberty's phone rather than their own individual descriptors or sketches.

[00:25:56] [SPEAKER_00]: One, I, I'm, you know, someone might perceive if they're, if they're shorter, someone might

[00:25:59] [SPEAKER_00]: perceive Kevin as very tall or if they're taller, oh, he's not as tall.

[00:26:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Like people might kind of think of all kinds of things.

[00:26:07] [SPEAKER_01]: No, I'm, I'm, I'm pretty tall, but I think, I think there is something.

[00:26:12] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't mean, you're, you're, you're the perfect height, but let me just.

[00:26:14] [SPEAKER_01]: I, I think there is some justice in the idea that perhaps the most effective witness in

[00:26:20] [SPEAKER_01]: this case, when all is said and is done, might be Liberty German.

[00:26:24] [SPEAKER_00]: That's what I was thinking.

[00:26:25] [SPEAKER_00]: It's like, that's what everyone is gravitating towards and that we would not have that if

[00:26:30] [SPEAKER_00]: it was not for what Liberty did.

[00:26:32] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that that, I think that that is possibly going to have a lot more weight than

[00:26:38] [SPEAKER_00]: somebody having an instantaneous perception of someone that could be incorrect.

[00:26:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Have you, you know, I'm sure we've all had an experience where we've looked at someone

[00:26:44] [SPEAKER_00]: and we're like, like, oh, they have kind of wavy hair.

[00:26:47] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh wait, no, it's just the way the light hit it made it look like that.

[00:26:50] [SPEAKER_00]: It's actually straighter.

[00:26:51] [SPEAKER_00]: Like you don't necessarily form, like, I feel like sometimes like all the data doesn't quite

[00:26:57] [SPEAKER_00]: hit my brain right away if it's just an instantaneous thing.

[00:26:59] [SPEAKER_00]: So I feel like that's less important than people saying, no, it's that guy on the bridge.

[00:27:07] [SPEAKER_00]: So that's, that's just a thought.

[00:27:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Next was the most, certainly the most disturbing portion of the day.

[00:27:14] [SPEAKER_01]: This was Dr. Roland Kaur, who is a semi-retired forensic pathologist.

[00:27:20] [SPEAKER_01]: And before we get into his testimony, I want to mention he, it was for large chunks of time,

[00:27:30] [SPEAKER_01]: he's a soft-spoken man and it was incredibly difficult to hear him, especially if like Anya

[00:27:37] [SPEAKER_01]: and myself, you were in the very last row of the courtroom.

[00:27:41] [SPEAKER_01]: It was so bad that even Judge Gull apologized for the sound and she said, well, at least

[00:27:50] [SPEAKER_01]: the credentialed members of the media in the front row can hear it so they can get it out

[00:27:55] [SPEAKER_01]: to people.

[00:27:56] [SPEAKER_01]: And she said, well, there's nothing I can do about this issue.

[00:27:59] [SPEAKER_01]: And when she said that, I thought to myself, obviously, that actually there is something

[00:28:05] [SPEAKER_01]: she could have done because she had a long time to make some choices here.

[00:28:10] [SPEAKER_01]: And if she cared, she could have very easily have set up a system where all of the witnesses

[00:28:17] [SPEAKER_01]: could have been heard by anybody who was interested.

[00:28:20] [SPEAKER_01]: But with that said.

[00:28:21] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I mean, that is fair.

[00:28:23] [SPEAKER_00]: I do think some folks in the gallery don't like this is mostly we're here, but it's mostly

[00:28:29] [SPEAKER_00]: for the jury and the other parties that they're most concerned about hearing about.

[00:28:33] [SPEAKER_00]: So that is something to keep in mind.

[00:28:35] [SPEAKER_00]: But it would be nice.

[00:28:36] [SPEAKER_00]: And also, I will note, I saw members of the credentialed press shaking their heads.

[00:28:40] [SPEAKER_00]: They couldn't hear it either.

[00:28:41] [SPEAKER_00]: So I think I'm going to be very curious to see what the coverage is because I think people

[00:28:46] [SPEAKER_00]: are struggling when they're hearing things.

[00:28:49] [SPEAKER_00]: So we shall see.

[00:28:51] [SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, there's a lot where I was really straining to hear.

[00:28:57] [SPEAKER_00]: And I mean, I tried to kind of just be conservative about these notes because I didn't want to

[00:29:02] [SPEAKER_00]: guess and then get it wrong.

[00:29:03] [SPEAKER_00]: So there's a lot I just kind of gave up on because I'm like, no, I'm not even going to

[00:29:06] [SPEAKER_00]: try to do that one.

[00:29:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's where I was.

[00:29:10] [SPEAKER_00]: If you don't get it, then I'm not even going to try because it's medical terms as well,

[00:29:17] [SPEAKER_00]: which is not an area we're at all experts in.

[00:29:20] [SPEAKER_01]: So he did mention that both girls had been tested for sexual assault.

[00:29:27] [SPEAKER_01]: He didn't mention the results of this test, but he did say there were no signs, visible

[00:29:31] [SPEAKER_01]: signs that either had been assaulted.

[00:29:33] [SPEAKER_01]: This was the man that did the autopsies, to be clear.

[00:29:36] [SPEAKER_01]: And so in the course of his testimony, we were actually shown some autopsy photos of these

[00:29:46] [SPEAKER_01]: of these girls.

[00:29:47] [SPEAKER_00]: Now, you had a better view of of that than I did.

[00:29:52] [SPEAKER_00]: I was sitting, I think, in the last column of chairs that could see anything.

[00:29:56] [SPEAKER_00]: But my angle wasn't as good because, I mean, frankly, I like I didn't after the crime scene

[00:30:06] [SPEAKER_00]: pictures, I kind of.

[00:30:08] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, I didn't even know if I'd be up for it.

[00:30:10] [SPEAKER_00]: So I it's just awful.

[00:30:11] [SPEAKER_00]: And like we were sitting on the side with the victims families.

[00:30:14] [SPEAKER_00]: It's just it's just like a surreal nightmare.

[00:30:17] [SPEAKER_00]: I just I my heart.

[00:30:18] [SPEAKER_00]: My these people are incredibly strong and they're sitting there and they're present and

[00:30:22] [SPEAKER_00]: they're there to represent these girls.

[00:30:24] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm like in awe of how formidable they are.

[00:30:27] [SPEAKER_00]: But it just it must be incredibly painful.

[00:30:29] [SPEAKER_00]: And my heart goes out to them.

[00:30:30] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm just, you know, I want to be I don't I don't want us to go into a lot of detail.

[00:30:34] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't I don't want to go into a lot of detail either.

[00:30:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Use your imaginations.

[00:30:39] [SPEAKER_01]: They were awful.

[00:30:40] [SPEAKER_01]: I saw all these pictures.

[00:30:42] [SPEAKER_01]: There were these wonderful girls deceased with close up images of the wounds that killed

[00:30:51] [SPEAKER_01]: them in some cases in order to document the wound.

[00:30:56] [SPEAKER_01]: The pathologist would like stretch it out and they were horrible images.

[00:31:02] [SPEAKER_01]: But it's it's necessary for the jury to see this, to have a full understanding of what

[00:31:11] [SPEAKER_01]: happened and what these girls went through.

[00:31:17] [SPEAKER_01]: So at one point, we're looking at a close up of some of these wounds.

[00:31:23] [SPEAKER_01]: I think he said Liberty had four or five.

[00:31:26] [SPEAKER_01]: And in some cases, they may have overlapped.

[00:31:28] [SPEAKER_01]: And so we're looking at a close up of some of these wounds and the Dr.

[00:31:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Core is talking and he says, well, if first I thought the wounds might have been caused,

[00:31:41] [SPEAKER_01]: at least this one wound might have been caused by a serrated knife.

[00:31:45] [SPEAKER_01]: And then he's talking about a thumb guard.

[00:31:47] [SPEAKER_01]: And then all of a sudden he says, well, actually, I think the murder weapon could have been a box

[00:31:52] [SPEAKER_01]: cutter.

[00:31:54] [SPEAKER_00]: And like to me, like maybe it's because I'm tired, but like that just like that stopped

[00:32:00] [SPEAKER_00]: everything.

[00:32:01] [SPEAKER_01]: That seemed to stop everything.

[00:32:02] [SPEAKER_01]: In case you don't remember, it came out as a three day hearing over the summer that Richard

[00:32:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Allen, in one of his many confessions to these horrific murders, claimed that the murder

[00:32:15] [SPEAKER_01]: weapon he used was a box cutter from CVS.

[00:32:19] [SPEAKER_01]: So now we have this very distinguished man with a very long career.

[00:32:25] [SPEAKER_01]: He has a great reputation.

[00:32:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Very credible.

[00:32:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Very credible.

[00:32:29] [SPEAKER_01]: And he's saying, well, when I look at this, I think it very well could have been a box

[00:32:34] [SPEAKER_01]: cutter.

[00:32:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Not to be too graphic, but it was basically something about the way the injuries were that

[00:32:39] [SPEAKER_00]: almost like there was there was the cuts, there was the incisions or the incised wounds.

[00:32:45] [SPEAKER_00]: But there was also a wound that was almost like something bumping up against the skin.

[00:32:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Like a thumb guard.

[00:32:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Like a thumb guard.

[00:32:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Which you might see on a box cutter.

[00:32:53] [SPEAKER_01]: On a box cutter.

[00:32:55] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:32:56] [SPEAKER_00]: When he said that, I was just like, what?

[00:32:59] [SPEAKER_01]: And if you look at the reactions, at the very least, the defense seemed to be totally taken

[00:33:04] [SPEAKER_01]: back by it.

[00:33:05] [SPEAKER_00]: They were stricken, I thought.

[00:33:07] [SPEAKER_01]: They did not.

[00:33:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Understandably.

[00:33:08] [SPEAKER_01]: They did not expect that.

[00:33:10] [SPEAKER_00]: No.

[00:33:11] [SPEAKER_00]: It was a bombshell.

[00:33:12] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, that was a bombshell.

[00:33:14] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if anyone else necessarily realized that.

[00:33:17] [SPEAKER_01]: But then he talked a little bit about how long it would have taken each girl to die from

[00:33:25] [SPEAKER_01]: her injuries.

[00:33:26] [SPEAKER_01]: And he said it'd be very difficult to tell because there's so many variables, maybe five

[00:33:32] [SPEAKER_01]: to 10 minutes.

[00:33:34] [SPEAKER_01]: With Abby, it may have been closer to 10.

[00:33:37] [SPEAKER_01]: And she may have lost consciousness first.

[00:33:40] [SPEAKER_01]: And with Liberty, it may have been closer to five.

[00:33:45] [SPEAKER_00]: There was also some odd details about something that I'd never heard of before.

[00:33:50] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:33:50] [SPEAKER_00]: Why don't you tell us about that?

[00:33:52] [SPEAKER_00]: He talks about like, you know, with Abby, there were questions around.

[00:33:56] [SPEAKER_00]: And also James Luttrell.

[00:33:58] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm sorry.

[00:33:58] [SPEAKER_00]: James Luttrell did this direct.

[00:34:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yeah.

[00:34:04] [SPEAKER_01]: I neglected to mention that.

[00:34:05] [SPEAKER_01]: He's very good.

[00:34:05] [SPEAKER_01]: I apologize.

[00:34:06] [SPEAKER_01]: He did a wonderful job.

[00:34:07] [SPEAKER_00]: He's very good at these kind of very technical but deeply upsetting kind of guiding us all

[00:34:13] [SPEAKER_00]: through it.

[00:34:15] [SPEAKER_00]: Now, this is just bizarre.

[00:34:18] [SPEAKER_00]: They talked about Abby.

[00:34:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Was she injured in any other way?

[00:34:22] [SPEAKER_00]: And the answer was no.

[00:34:24] [SPEAKER_00]: Except there's very slight.

[00:34:28] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, they were like, were there any signs that she'd been restrained?

[00:34:32] [SPEAKER_00]: And the answer was almost no.

[00:34:33] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, no.

[00:34:34] [SPEAKER_00]: You would expect ligature marks, wrists, ankles, things like that.

[00:34:38] [SPEAKER_00]: But that's not what was the case here.

[00:34:41] [SPEAKER_00]: But there was almost like these faint marks across her face.

[00:34:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Like just below her lips.

[00:34:48] [SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[00:34:48] [SPEAKER_00]: And what he said, it like made him think of like duct tape or cloth, like a gag or something.

[00:34:58] [SPEAKER_00]: And like.

[00:34:59] [SPEAKER_01]: But it couldn't have been duct tape because there was no sign of adhesive material.

[00:35:03] [SPEAKER_00]: No.

[00:35:03] [SPEAKER_00]: No adhesive residue whatsoever.

[00:35:05] [SPEAKER_00]: So it can't be duct tape.

[00:35:06] [SPEAKER_00]: But that those were the examples he used.

[00:35:08] [SPEAKER_00]: And like, I mean, who knows?

[00:35:10] [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe it could just be like something else entirely.

[00:35:13] [SPEAKER_00]: I just.

[00:35:14] [SPEAKER_00]: That that was that was very, very odd.

[00:35:17] [SPEAKER_00]: And he noted it was far more visible in a photograph than to the naked eye.

[00:35:22] [SPEAKER_00]: And that was, again, odd.

[00:35:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Never heard that before.

[00:35:28] [SPEAKER_01]: He was asked to estimate the time of death.

[00:35:31] [SPEAKER_01]: And he said you can't do that with precision.

[00:35:34] [SPEAKER_01]: But.

[00:35:36] [SPEAKER_01]: The way their bodies appeared, it was consistent that they died sometime after the last time they were seen and prior to when they were discovered.

[00:35:46] [SPEAKER_00]: And the defense was.

[00:35:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Completely furious about the complete was the defense was completely furious to the extent.

[00:35:58] [SPEAKER_01]: And I saw Brad Rosie handled the cross exam.

[00:36:02] [SPEAKER_01]: And at one point he has a piece of paper in his right hand and his hand, his right hand is shaking a little bit as if in fury.

[00:36:11] [SPEAKER_01]: And so then he puts the paper in his left hand and he sticks his right hand in his pocket.

[00:36:16] [SPEAKER_01]: And he keeps it there for a while.

[00:36:18] [SPEAKER_01]: And he's like, first of all, he's he's upset about the box cutter.

[00:36:21] [SPEAKER_01]: If you changed your mind about the box cutter and the serrated knife, why didn't you tell us a long time ago?

[00:36:26] [SPEAKER_00]: Because here's the thing.

[00:36:27] [SPEAKER_00]: The serrated knife was good for the defense because a box cutter is not serrated.

[00:36:35] [SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[00:36:35] [SPEAKER_00]: Or at least I don't think some of them can be actually some of them can be.

[00:36:39] [SPEAKER_00]: But I mean, like the serrated knife might point to something else.

[00:36:42] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think they they seem to be like, we want that.

[00:36:45] [SPEAKER_00]: And then to have it go from a go from that to like the thing they really don't want was a blow.

[00:36:52] [SPEAKER_01]: He was really rattled.

[00:36:53] [SPEAKER_01]: And at one point he started a question with, well, do you agree with me that and he stopped himself because he remembered he got in so much grief for that yesterday.

[00:37:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Latrell traumatized him with all those objections because he kept on.

[00:37:04] [SPEAKER_00]: He did that a few times.

[00:37:05] [SPEAKER_00]: He was like, do you agree with me?

[00:37:06] [SPEAKER_00]: And then strike that.

[00:37:09] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, he you know, that's that's a kind of a traditional way he asked a question.

[00:37:13] [SPEAKER_00]: And he ran into a lot of trouble with that the other day.

[00:37:15] [SPEAKER_00]: So he's trying to reform it.

[00:37:16] [SPEAKER_00]: But he's he's thinking on the go.

[00:37:17] [SPEAKER_00]: I think this was a huge blow to them.

[00:37:19] [SPEAKER_00]: So I think it was kind of something where they had to, you know, kind of sort through the emotions and the shock and then kind of figure out how to deal with that.

[00:37:26] [SPEAKER_01]: And this box cutter thing totally rattled him.

[00:37:30] [SPEAKER_01]: You should have told us you should have told us.

[00:37:32] [SPEAKER_01]: And then oddly enough, towards the end, he's like, well, you know, this case has gotten so much notoriety and you know that.

[00:37:41] [SPEAKER_01]: So isn't it true that you once had coffee with a reporter?

[00:37:45] [SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, that's it.

[00:37:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Sure.

[00:37:47] [SPEAKER_00]: If you've ever had coffee with me, anybody don't tell anyone.

[00:37:50] [SPEAKER_00]: No, I'm just kidding.

[00:37:51] [SPEAKER_01]: It's one of those things where I don't even know what he was trying to.

[00:37:55] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't understand that.

[00:37:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Prove there.

[00:37:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:37:57] [SPEAKER_01]: I would guess the most of the people involved in this case have at one time or another spoken with a member of the press.

[00:38:04] [SPEAKER_00]: There's nothing wrong with that.

[00:38:06] [SPEAKER_00]: We're not all bad.

[00:38:07] [SPEAKER_00]: And the thing is, like, I think it was – I don't blame him because I think this was just a shock.

[00:38:15] [SPEAKER_00]: And so I'm like I'm really not trying to Monday morning quarterback here.

[00:38:18] [SPEAKER_00]: I just think to me as a layperson, I understand what he's saying about the legality.

[00:38:23] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, you know, if I were them, I'd be really annoyed that I wasn't informed about that immediately, you know, and that, you know, I'd be like, what the heck?

[00:38:32] [SPEAKER_00]: But at the same time, like, to me as someone who really ultimately more of cares about the truth of the matter and, like, what happened to these girls and finding out, to me it's like if an expert looks at something and is like, actually, box cutter fits.

[00:38:48] [SPEAKER_00]: That fits better than a serrated head.

[00:38:50] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, like, I felt he just was, like, basically beating up on this guy on the stand because he said something he didn't like as opposed – you know what I mean?

[00:38:58] [SPEAKER_00]: It's like –

[00:38:58] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:38:59] [SPEAKER_01]: That's his job.

[00:39:00] [SPEAKER_00]: I know that's his job.

[00:39:02] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm just saying that, like, if I were a jury member and I was dedicated to getting to the truth and figuring it out, I don't know if that would play that well with me because I would just be like, all right, well, yeah, that sucks.

[00:39:11] [SPEAKER_00]: But, like, maybe you kind of got to roll with it.

[00:39:14] [SPEAKER_01]: The thing to remember is that for the people in the gallery and for all of you listening, when the man says that the murder weapon very well could have been a box cutter, that fits.

[00:39:26] [SPEAKER_01]: To us all, that's a bombshell.

[00:39:29] [SPEAKER_01]: That's very, very bad for the defense.

[00:39:31] [SPEAKER_01]: But the jury doesn't know that.

[00:39:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, they don't know that yet, though.

[00:39:34] [SPEAKER_00]: But they're going to know it.

[00:39:35] [SPEAKER_01]: They're going to know it later.

[00:39:35] [SPEAKER_01]: But right now, when Rosie is reacting this way and all this stuff is going on, they don't understand why.

[00:39:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Have you ever heard of foreshadowing?

[00:39:43] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, and that's almost more powerful to a jury sometimes because it's like, oh, wait, box cutter?

[00:39:49] [SPEAKER_00]: Where did we hear that before?

[00:39:51] [SPEAKER_00]: From the pathologist.

[00:39:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[00:39:53] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, I think this is a real problem for the defense.

[00:39:58] [SPEAKER_00]: I'd be curious about, like, what they're going to do.

[00:40:01] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I have a question.

[00:40:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Just from a legal standpoint was, I mean, because basically what Dr. Kor said was, you know, listen, I'm giving you my opinion.

[00:40:09] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm saying this is a possibility.

[00:40:11] [SPEAKER_00]: I didn't conclude it's a box cutter.

[00:40:13] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm just saying that that would fit the evidence.

[00:40:16] [SPEAKER_00]: And they're like, well, you should have given us a supplementary report on that.

[00:40:19] [SPEAKER_00]: And he's like, on like a thought, on like a possible solution for this.

[00:40:24] [SPEAKER_00]: So, like, what would be the correct thing?

[00:40:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Did he do anything wrong?

[00:40:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Is the defense overreacting?

[00:40:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Who's right?

[00:40:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Is no one right?

[00:40:32] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's just complicated.

[00:40:33] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.

[00:40:34] [SPEAKER_01]: It's complicated.

[00:40:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Certainly if I was the defense, I understand why.

[00:40:37] [SPEAKER_01]: I'd be mad.

[00:40:37] [SPEAKER_01]: I'd be mad.

[00:40:38] [SPEAKER_00]: I would be super mad.

[00:40:39] [SPEAKER_00]: But at the same time, it's kind of like, I don't know if he did anything wrong.

[00:40:44] [SPEAKER_00]: If it's basically just him being like, well, guys, I know we've all been talking about this.

[00:40:47] [SPEAKER_00]: And actually, I kind of thought it made me.

[00:40:50] [SPEAKER_01]: It was a very, very bad moment for this defense team.

[00:40:56] [SPEAKER_01]: On redirect, James Luttrell asked an interesting question.

[00:41:01] [SPEAKER_01]: He said, when you look at all of these wounds on these two girls, what is the minimum number of knives or weapons that had to have been used?

[00:41:12] [SPEAKER_01]: And the minimum number was what?

[00:41:14] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, because that was one thing Rosie did mention.

[00:41:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, the defense wants it to be, I think, a group of people.

[00:41:21] [SPEAKER_00]: So they're saying, like, well, don't you think that some of these injuries look like because with Libby, again, not going to be graphic about this, but there were sort of four wounds that appeared to be two, but were in fact four separate wounds.

[00:41:41] [SPEAKER_00]: And so, you know, what the defense, I think, has been alluding to is like maybe a bunch of people did that.

[00:41:47] [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe there were multiple knives and multiple weapons involved.

[00:41:49] [SPEAKER_00]: They want to make it bigger and bigger and bigger.

[00:41:51] [SPEAKER_00]: So what Luttrell was doing there was basically saying, could one knife have done it?

[00:41:56] [SPEAKER_00]: And the answer is yes.

[00:41:59] [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe it's not a knife.

[00:42:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe it's a box cutter.

[00:42:01] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.

[00:42:02] [SPEAKER_00]: I guess a box cutter is like a form of knife.

[00:42:04] [SPEAKER_00]: But, yeah.

[00:42:05] [SPEAKER_01]: So before we talk about the next witness, I want to give you all some context.

[00:42:14] [SPEAKER_01]: So the defense theory, they haven't completely spelled it out.

[00:42:19] [SPEAKER_01]: But their theory in some way involves when the girls go down the hill, they are not killed.

[00:42:27] [SPEAKER_01]: They are instead placed in a vehicle which transports them to another location.

[00:42:34] [SPEAKER_01]: And then the vehicle comes back and drops them off in the same general vicinity of where they were kidnapped.

[00:42:41] [SPEAKER_01]: And at this point, the killer, using his hand, turns on Libby's phone and then throws it on the ground.

[00:42:50] [SPEAKER_01]: And then they killed the girls in such a way that one of the girls, Abby, lands on top of the phone.

[00:42:56] [SPEAKER_01]: And so for that theory, there's some obvious problems with that theory.

[00:43:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, really?

[00:43:02] [SPEAKER_01]: We're not going to go into those problems now.

[00:43:06] [SPEAKER_01]: But for that theory to work, you need for the phone to move after the girls were kidnapped.

[00:43:15] [SPEAKER_01]: And you also need for the phone to be turned off and then turned back on around 430.

[00:43:24] [SPEAKER_01]: That's absolutely crucial.

[00:43:26] [SPEAKER_01]: So if you can establish that the phone was not turned off between the time of the kidnapping and 430 a.m.,

[00:43:35] [SPEAKER_01]: which is when the defense contends all these other activities supposedly happen.

[00:43:40] [SPEAKER_01]: If the phone was not turned off or then turned back on during that time,

[00:43:45] [SPEAKER_01]: if the phone was not turned on during that time,

[00:43:47] [SPEAKER_01]: then that is a pretty fatal blow to their entire theory.

[00:43:52] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[00:43:52] [SPEAKER_01]: And so the expert witness that testified for the entire afternoon session was a phone expert.

[00:44:01] [SPEAKER_01]: It was Christopher Cecil.

[00:44:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Now, you may remember his name.

[00:44:04] [SPEAKER_00]: We've talked about him on the show a bunch of times because he was also involved in the Kagan Klein case.

[00:44:10] [SPEAKER_00]: He's a commander with the Indiana Internet Crimes Against Children Unit.

[00:44:16] [SPEAKER_00]: And he does a lot of work around this.

[00:44:19] [SPEAKER_00]: He was involved in Kagan Klein.

[00:44:20] [SPEAKER_00]: He was a part of the three-day hearing.

[00:44:23] [SPEAKER_00]: And so he's been very much a part of this ongoing story.

[00:44:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.

[00:44:30] [SPEAKER_01]: And I should also tell you that a lot of the testimony about analysis of the cell phone is pretty complicated.

[00:44:38] [SPEAKER_01]: And I thought there was, when it started, Prosecutor Nick McClellan, who presented this witness himself, he said,

[00:44:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, you know, this stuff is so complicated.

[00:44:49] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to need you to dumb it down for me so I can understand it.

[00:44:55] [SPEAKER_01]: And that kind of felt like it may have been a callback to a remark Brad Rosey made in front of some prospective juror members where he said he was going to dumb down some stuff for them.

[00:45:07] [SPEAKER_01]: So, in other words, Rosie was acting like he was smarter than the jury.

[00:45:12] [SPEAKER_01]: And McClellan was saying, well, I need it dumbed down for me.

[00:45:16] [SPEAKER_00]: McClellan is very – Nicholas McClellan, the Carroll County prosecutor, is handling – I think he's doing a really good job.

[00:45:23] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think his demeanor is – to a certain extent, all these lawyers are playing some kind of role.

[00:45:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, you know, it's almost like an actor performing, right?

[00:45:36] [SPEAKER_00]: Like you might have the sharp, fast-talking bulldog.

[00:45:39] [SPEAKER_00]: You might have the kind of like, you know, kind of out there but profound and brilliant one.

[00:45:45] [SPEAKER_00]: And then you have – what he's doing is really more relatable, boiling it down so it's understandable, and charming.

[00:45:52] [SPEAKER_00]: I think he's very charming.

[00:45:53] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think he's really – I think he's doing a good job because I feel like when I look over at the jury when he's talking or if he's kind of like saying something like in kind of a low-key kind of rapport-building way, I'm seeing people smiling.

[00:46:08] [SPEAKER_00]: I think that's a good thing for him.

[00:46:11] [SPEAKER_00]: And by people, I mean the jurors.

[00:46:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[00:46:14] [SPEAKER_00]: So, yes.

[00:46:15] [SPEAKER_01]: So, he talked about – he looked at this phone for the first time, I believe, in 2019.

[00:46:22] [SPEAKER_00]: And by he, you mean Cecil.

[00:46:24] [SPEAKER_00]: Cecil.

[00:46:24] [SPEAKER_01]: And he talked about – the phone was looked at again at that time because there was a new tool that was made available to the Indiana State Police.

[00:46:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Was it called GrayKey?

[00:46:33] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, GrayKey.

[00:46:34] [SPEAKER_01]: And GrayKey was essentially some sort of tool that gave them the ability to extract massive amounts of data from Apple devices.

[00:46:46] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think this is one important point to clarify here because I think, you know, like there might be an element of like, wait, they only looked at the phone like that late?

[00:46:57] [SPEAKER_00]: But this technology, this phone extraction technology, which is not something I've ever really thought about a lot outside of this case, is apparently developing all the time, getting better.

[00:47:07] [SPEAKER_00]: You can do more with it.

[00:47:09] [SPEAKER_00]: There are different tools coming online all the time.

[00:47:11] [SPEAKER_00]: And so what we're seeing is these investigators –

[00:47:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Think of it like DNA.

[00:47:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:47:19] [SPEAKER_01]: If you follow true crime at all, you know that DNA technology is constantly improving and you can test for things now that you couldn't possibly have tested for like five years ago.

[00:47:29] [SPEAKER_01]: So apparently something similar is going on with this.

[00:47:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:47:35] [SPEAKER_00]: That's a good analogy to make, I think.

[00:47:39] [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, so it's not a matter of them being like, oh, I guess we should check out the phone.

[00:47:43] [SPEAKER_00]: It's a matter of like, let's try this now.

[00:47:46] [SPEAKER_00]: We already did this.

[00:47:47] [SPEAKER_01]: So Gray Key basically extracts a bunch of data, but it gives you something that basically people like you and Anya and I probably wouldn't be able to read.

[00:48:01] [SPEAKER_01]: And so Cecil went through this and presented it and organized it into different logs.

[00:48:10] [SPEAKER_01]: And doing this and doing that analysis takes a lot of time.

[00:48:14] [SPEAKER_01]: He did two different analysis of the phone.

[00:48:18] [SPEAKER_01]: The first one started on June 26, 2019, and he was not completed with it until August 21st of 2019.

[00:48:28] [SPEAKER_01]: And he mentioned that when he did his analysis, he largely focused on one day in the life of the phone.

[00:48:35] [SPEAKER_01]: He focused, of course, on February 13th, 2017, because he knew that that was the day the girls went missing.

[00:48:42] [SPEAKER_01]: And, of course, he knew that was the date of the bridge guy video.

[00:48:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:48:46] [SPEAKER_00]: Also, just a little thing that, you know, kind of made me sad was Libby's phone case was this burgundy rubber one that had some sort of Harry Potter illustration on it.

[00:48:56] [SPEAKER_00]: These were just kids.

[00:48:58] [SPEAKER_00]: And there were at least two users, he said, for the phone.

[00:49:01] [SPEAKER_00]: And those two users were, of course, Liberty German and her best friend, Abigail Williams.

[00:49:05] [SPEAKER_00]: Abby did not have her own phone at this point.

[00:49:08] [SPEAKER_00]: That was something that she, you know, Anna Williams, her mother, testified that she might get in high school when she was a little bit older.

[00:49:14] [SPEAKER_00]: But she did not have one at that point.

[00:49:16] [SPEAKER_00]: So the girls would kind of share Libby's phone a bit, like she would be able to use it.

[00:49:21] [SPEAKER_00]: So that's the reason.

[00:49:22] [SPEAKER_00]: And she even had a bio.

[00:49:24] [SPEAKER_00]: There were fingerprints, I guess, like get into the phone.

[00:49:28] [SPEAKER_00]: And two of those were Libby's.

[00:49:30] [SPEAKER_00]: The, I believe, I think two were Libby's and then one was Abby's.

[00:49:34] [SPEAKER_01]: And then he talked about the Apple Health app.

[00:49:39] [SPEAKER_01]: And I don't use an iPhone, but maybe those of you who do are familiar with this Apple Health app, which is always on in the background, he says.

[00:49:51] [SPEAKER_01]: It's always working.

[00:49:53] [SPEAKER_01]: And it works like the Fitbits that we talked about the other day worked, where it tracks the number of steps you take.

[00:50:01] [SPEAKER_01]: It tracks the distance you travel.

[00:50:05] [SPEAKER_01]: It tracks changes in elevation, like if you climb up or down a hill or go up and down some steps.

[00:50:10] [SPEAKER_01]: And so by using information from that health app, they were able to calculate some of the steps and movements that the phone made on that day.

[00:50:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Do you want to talk about those?

[00:50:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, so basically my understanding, like there was discussion of like almost, and correct me if I got this wrong, Kevin, but like the phone traveling up like two flights almost.

[00:50:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, it said at one point, well, let's go back a little bit.

[00:51:00] [SPEAKER_01]: The phone was moving from to about 2.08, stopped moving about 2.18.

[00:51:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Then it's moving again from 2.25 to 2.32.

[00:51:11] [SPEAKER_01]: And at 2.31, the phone changed elevation, the equivalent of two floors, which is about a change in elevation of about 20 feet.

[00:51:22] [SPEAKER_01]: So it's not clear.

[00:51:25] [SPEAKER_01]: He didn't explicitly say they went down, but based on everything we know, that was probably when they went down the hill.

[00:51:33] [SPEAKER_01]: And then he indicated the last movement of the phone occurred at 2.32 and 39 seconds.

[00:51:40] [SPEAKER_01]: And the phone stopped moving at 2.32.

[00:51:45] [SPEAKER_00]: That to me, that to me is like, I don't know, that's a sticking point for me personally.

[00:51:54] [SPEAKER_00]: Because I know the defense has this theory where, oh, well, and we'll get into this, but Apple Health, you know, doesn't work when you're in the car and it wouldn't track.

[00:52:04] [SPEAKER_00]: But like, like, I don't know.

[00:52:07] [SPEAKER_01]: The thinking is that if you have something tracking your steps and then you put that object in a car, it's not going to track your movements anymore because you're not taking steps.

[00:52:19] [SPEAKER_01]: And if, you know, if I have an Apple Health tracking my steps and I drive 10 miles across town, you don't want to say, well, Kevin walked 10 miles in 10 minutes.

[00:52:31] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, obviously that would be ludicrous.

[00:52:33] [SPEAKER_01]: So it's not designed to track movements in cars.

[00:52:39] [SPEAKER_01]: They indicated that it possibly could.

[00:52:41] [SPEAKER_01]: If you're in a car that's very bumpy, it could trick the phone into thinking that it was taking steps.

[00:52:47] [SPEAKER_01]: But it's one thing also that I am curious about.

[00:52:53] [SPEAKER_01]: If you buy the idea that the girls were not killed and they were immediately put in this vehicle and that's why there's no more movements shown on the car.

[00:53:04] [SPEAKER_01]: But the fact is the the car.

[00:53:10] [SPEAKER_01]: When the car returns with the girls, the girls and the phone have to step out of the car and take some steps there.

[00:53:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:53:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Does the is the is it a flying car?

[00:53:19] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, like, like, I'm not trying to be like.

[00:53:22] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, seriously, like, I don't like it would have to move.

[00:53:26] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, there would have to be more steps in there.

[00:53:29] [SPEAKER_01]: It's a confusing theory.

[00:53:31] [SPEAKER_01]: And so but we haven't heard the detail.

[00:53:33] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, listen, I'm open.

[00:53:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe they've got some really good explanation for some of these things.

[00:53:38] [SPEAKER_00]: And I would love to hear that if that is the case.

[00:53:40] [SPEAKER_00]: But I as it stands, that this sort of piecemeal rollout of hinting that they have something big is not working for me.

[00:53:48] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm very confused.

[00:53:49] [SPEAKER_00]: But whatever.

[00:53:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:53:52] [SPEAKER_01]: There are things about this theory.

[00:53:54] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't understand.

[00:53:56] [SPEAKER_01]: And the fact that the phone doesn't move after 232 as established by Cecil seems to be a pretty big problem for that is a huge problem.

[00:54:06] [SPEAKER_00]: And that indicates that that gives us a possible because the phone was found beneath Abby's body.

[00:54:13] [SPEAKER_00]: That gives us an approximation of possible time of death.

[00:54:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, because if the phone is I mean, we've received no indications that the bodies were, you know, like that Abby was in any way left left it up.

[00:54:26] [SPEAKER_00]: And because they even talked about like the brush underneath her, like it didn't show a lot of disturbance at all.

[00:54:31] [SPEAKER_00]: So I don't think people were like moving her around just to slide the phone under her.

[00:54:35] [SPEAKER_00]: Or, you know, it I don't know.

[00:54:37] [SPEAKER_00]: It just it just.

[00:54:40] [SPEAKER_00]: That is a hard thing to overcome.

[00:54:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Frankly, I don't even know why they're fighting so hard to overcome that, because maybe just maybe just say, hey, listen, Richard Allen looks like bridge guy.

[00:54:49] [SPEAKER_00]: He was there that day, but maybe he was just a witness.

[00:54:50] [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe there's another guy dressed similarly and he's the one who did it.

[00:54:53] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.

[00:54:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Then they talked about a kind of data on the phone called Knowledge C.

[00:55:01] [SPEAKER_01]: And if I explain this wrong, I certainly apologize.

[00:55:06] [SPEAKER_01]: But to my understanding and please, please jump in here a lot.

[00:55:10] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I'm going to be totally useless here, Kevin, but I will try.

[00:55:13] [SPEAKER_01]: He said that Knowledge C is basically some volatile data that tracks a lot of things that like you or I wouldn't really pay much attention to.

[00:55:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Like Knowledge C knows when your phone lights up.

[00:55:30] [SPEAKER_01]: They know when your phone locks.

[00:55:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Things like that, that basically you're understanding.

[00:55:36] [SPEAKER_01]: So basically that data gives them even more information about the way the phone was used that day.

[00:55:44] [SPEAKER_01]: He also mentioned that they could see that Libby used Snapchat that day.

[00:55:50] [SPEAKER_01]: So, for instance, at 141, Libby posts a picture to Snapchat with the Snapchat app.

[00:55:59] [SPEAKER_01]: And they found a copy of that picture within the cache that existed on the phone on the Snapchat app.

[00:56:09] [SPEAKER_01]: At 143 p.m., Libby posts another Snapchat image.

[00:56:16] [SPEAKER_01]: It's a close-up view of Liberty wearing a tie-dye shirt.

[00:56:22] [SPEAKER_01]: She is grinning.

[00:56:24] [SPEAKER_01]: And Abby is in the background.

[00:56:27] [SPEAKER_01]: He says that they had seatbelts on and Abby was looking at the camera with a blank expression.

[00:56:37] [SPEAKER_01]: And that photo they also found within the cache on the phone.

[00:56:44] [SPEAKER_01]: 205.

[00:56:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Another Snapchat is posted.

[00:56:50] [SPEAKER_01]: And then the phone is unlocked at 207.

[00:56:54] [SPEAKER_01]: That may have been when the last Snapchat picture was posted, the picture of Abby on the bridge.

[00:57:02] [SPEAKER_01]: And what is interesting, and no one seems to have an explanation for this,

[00:57:07] [SPEAKER_01]: is that all of the other Snapchats that she posted that day exist in some form on her phone.

[00:57:13] [SPEAKER_01]: But this final one does not.

[00:57:15] [SPEAKER_00]: And this is an area where, I will say this, I felt like there were some struggling on the part of the prosecution witness, Cecil.

[00:57:23] [SPEAKER_00]: I think for a lot of the stuff, he did a good job explaining some pretty technical terms in a way that people could understand.

[00:57:29] [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm not really knocking him.

[00:57:30] [SPEAKER_00]: But it does not seem like his expertise is necessarily the inner workings of Snapchat.

[00:57:37] [SPEAKER_00]: So I felt like there were some things he was kind of like, I don't know, and I can't account for that.

[00:57:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, I mean, I think, you know, when you're in that situation, you don't want to overstate anything and be like,

[00:57:47] [SPEAKER_00]: like, oh, well, that would never happen.

[00:57:49] [SPEAKER_00]: Or, of course, there's an explanation.

[00:57:50] [SPEAKER_00]: So I think he was staying in his lane, which was appropriate and good.

[00:57:53] [SPEAKER_00]: But I think it would have been nice to bring in somebody as well as sort of like maybe the person who's like,

[00:58:01] [SPEAKER_00]: I know Snapchat really well.

[00:58:03] [SPEAKER_00]: Here's why this would happen versus here's why that would happen.

[00:58:06] [SPEAKER_00]: Does that make sense?

[00:58:07] [SPEAKER_01]: That makes sense.

[00:58:07] [SPEAKER_00]: I just felt like ultimately and then we'll get to this.

[00:58:10] [SPEAKER_00]: Ultimately, the jury had questions.

[00:58:11] [SPEAKER_00]: I had questions.

[00:58:12] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'd want to know, like, OK, that happened.

[00:58:15] [SPEAKER_00]: That photo was lost somehow.

[00:58:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Is that like completely impossible?

[00:58:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Is that something that does happen?

[00:58:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes it's kind of random.

[00:58:24] [SPEAKER_00]: Is it rare, but possibly I would just want to know exactly.

[00:58:27] [SPEAKER_00]: And again, it sounds like they can't really account for it.

[00:58:31] [SPEAKER_00]: One thing that I think about in this case a lot that maybe might be might be hard for some people to accept.

[00:58:35] [SPEAKER_00]: And I understand that.

[00:58:37] [SPEAKER_00]: Is that like.

[00:59:06] [SPEAKER_00]: It's a criminal case.

[00:59:07] [SPEAKER_00]: There might be some things like that.

[00:59:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Then he got to his second report because, again, technology had improved.

[00:59:16] [SPEAKER_01]: This report and the analysis was done between May 10th, 2024 and August 18th, 2024.

[00:59:24] [SPEAKER_01]: He did not do a new extraction of the phone.

[00:59:27] [SPEAKER_01]: He just took the data from the previous extraction and used that.

[00:59:35] [SPEAKER_01]: He talked some more about the health app data and how it was essentially the same as before.

[00:59:46] [SPEAKER_01]: And he talked about how in some certain controlled environments.

[00:59:50] [SPEAKER_01]: It's been found that this health app is quite accurate when it comes to tracking steps.

[01:00:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Yep.

[01:00:02] [SPEAKER_00]: So kind of just a little bit more detail and showing that they're continuing to work on on that with these new reports.

[01:00:09] [SPEAKER_01]: And then he talked about GPS on the phone.

[01:00:14] [SPEAKER_01]: And he brought up this issue where, as we all know and have been talking about a lot, Libby takes this 43-second video.

[01:00:26] [SPEAKER_01]: So at the very beginning of the video, which we saw in court yesterday, we see an image of the Monon Highbridge.

[01:00:32] [SPEAKER_01]: But the GPS data says that that video beginning was actually taken at Delphi High School.

[01:00:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Which obviously not because we can see it.

[01:00:43] [SPEAKER_01]: But then a few seconds later, the GPS data changes.

[01:00:47] [SPEAKER_01]: No, it's on the Monon Highbridge trail.

[01:00:49] [SPEAKER_01]: And he talked about how essentially when the video camera starts working, the camera, when it starts working, the phone is using other apps.

[01:01:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Which basically don't take as much power and don't place as high a premium on accuracy.

[01:01:12] [SPEAKER_01]: So when it first switches over to the video app, where it is more important to have accurate data, it takes a few seconds before it becomes accurate.

[01:01:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Is that essentially I'm really...

[01:01:26] [SPEAKER_00]: No, I think you explained it very well.

[01:01:30] [SPEAKER_00]: Certainly better than I could right now.

[01:01:32] [SPEAKER_00]: I think that, you know...

[01:01:33] [SPEAKER_00]: Because like, what's the alternative?

[01:01:36] [SPEAKER_00]: That they were like somehow...

[01:01:38] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, they were obviously at the bridge and they obviously weren't flying through the air.

[01:01:44] [SPEAKER_00]: So, I mean, they weren't at Delphi High School.

[01:01:47] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it just...

[01:01:49] [SPEAKER_00]: We've all been there.

[01:01:50] [SPEAKER_00]: I remember, didn't one time like, you know, like...

[01:01:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, you looked at like...

[01:01:55] [SPEAKER_00]: We were like doing some Find My iPhone thing and you saw me and it looked like I was like walking to Costco or something.

[01:02:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, when I wasn't.

[01:02:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Anya was at home and I was somewhere else and I looked and it said she was walking to Costco.

[01:02:05] [SPEAKER_01]: And then it said she was in another store like a half mile away, like a minute later.

[01:02:12] [SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, this technology is not perfect.

[01:02:14] [SPEAKER_01]: I was on a secret shopping spree, apparently.

[01:02:17] [SPEAKER_01]: And Anya didn't have a car at the time.

[01:02:19] [SPEAKER_01]: So, she was like really running all over town.

[01:02:21] [SPEAKER_00]: You were at the...

[01:02:21] [SPEAKER_00]: You had the car and then it looked like I was zipping around.

[01:02:24] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think, unfortunately, given my history, one of those stores was like a liquor store.

[01:02:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I wasn't going to mention that part.

[01:02:30] [SPEAKER_01]: I know, but it's funny.

[01:02:33] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh my God, she's relapsing.

[01:02:34] [SPEAKER_00]: No, like it was just...

[01:02:36] [SPEAKER_00]: I was at home.

[01:02:36] [SPEAKER_00]: It was just...

[01:02:37] [SPEAKER_00]: It was just being weird.

[01:02:38] [SPEAKER_00]: So, I'm not saying that's the same exact mechanism, but it just...

[01:02:42] [SPEAKER_00]: I think we all can understand that sometimes the technology does not get it perfect.

[01:02:47] [SPEAKER_01]: So, then he started talking about battery power on the iPhone.

[01:02:52] [SPEAKER_01]: And again, please jump in to correct me.

[01:02:55] [SPEAKER_01]: But essentially, he says that when the battery starts getting below certain levels,

[01:03:00] [SPEAKER_01]: the iPhone battery starts like taking power conserving steps in order to make it possible for the battery to last longer.

[01:03:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[01:03:13] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's essentially at this point, it's slowing down the phone's ability to do things like playing games

[01:03:21] [SPEAKER_01]: while doing what it can to preserve the phone's ability to do more important functions like making or receiving calls

[01:03:30] [SPEAKER_01]: or using the Apple Pay app.

[01:03:32] [SPEAKER_01]: And so, the phone has these ways to extend its life.

[01:03:38] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[01:03:39] [SPEAKER_01]: When the battery gets very, very low.

[01:03:44] [SPEAKER_01]: And considering that and looking at all of this Knowledge C data, it's very clear, he says,

[01:03:52] [SPEAKER_01]: that the phone was never turned off and that the battery did not die on the phone until sometime after 4.30 in the morning.

[01:04:02] [SPEAKER_00]: So, he was very emphatic on this point.

[01:04:04] [SPEAKER_01]: He said that if the phone was turned off and then turned on, if the phone is turned on,

[01:04:11] [SPEAKER_01]: that is something that clearly would have shown in this Knowledge C data.

[01:04:16] [SPEAKER_01]: It would have shown in his analysis of the phone.

[01:04:21] [SPEAKER_01]: And he was emphatic that this was not what happened.

[01:04:26] [SPEAKER_01]: And so, essentially, this is quite a blow to the defense's theory, but they hadn't done the cross-exam yet.

[01:04:33] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[01:04:33] [SPEAKER_00]: So, maybe they have a chance to salvage it.

[01:04:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[01:04:36] [SPEAKER_00]: Spoiler alert.

[01:04:37] [SPEAKER_00]: They did not.

[01:04:40] [SPEAKER_01]: So, he talks a lot about that.

[01:04:43] [SPEAKER_01]: And then it is time for cross-examination by Jennifer OJ.

[01:04:48] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, it's kind of funny.

[01:04:49] [SPEAKER_00]: We did a break and then Nick McClelland was like, I have a few more omitted questions.

[01:04:53] [SPEAKER_00]: So, we went back to him for a while and then it was Jennifer OJ's turn.

[01:04:57] [SPEAKER_00]: This was something I was honestly like, oof.

[01:05:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Because we saw her cross him in the three-day hearing and I didn't really think it went well.

[01:05:09] [SPEAKER_00]: I felt-

[01:05:09] [SPEAKER_01]: For either of them.

[01:05:09] [SPEAKER_00]: For either of them.

[01:05:11] [SPEAKER_00]: It was like, it was just like this, like, what are you talking about?

[01:05:14] [SPEAKER_00]: No, what are you talking about?

[01:05:15] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, and everyone else is just sitting there like, what is going on?

[01:05:20] [SPEAKER_00]: I think like, we had like reporters like talking to us afterwards like, what the hell was that?

[01:05:24] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, it was really-

[01:05:26] [SPEAKER_00]: It's like they were just talking past each other.

[01:05:28] [SPEAKER_00]: It was just really weird.

[01:05:29] [SPEAKER_00]: I thought she sounded like she did not know what she was talking about to a certain extent.

[01:05:33] [SPEAKER_00]: And he sounded very confused about what she was talking about and like wasn't answering questions as a result.

[01:05:38] [SPEAKER_00]: And it just like, it was like a cycle.

[01:05:40] [SPEAKER_00]: It was like a spiral.

[01:05:42] [SPEAKER_00]: But, I mean, she seems to be the one doing most of their technology stuff.

[01:05:46] [SPEAKER_00]: So, I guess it may, you know, like she came back to this.

[01:05:48] [SPEAKER_00]: But after seeing that, I was a little-

[01:05:50] [SPEAKER_00]: We saw her do some very good crossing of Thomas Plants, the former FBI agent, the other day.

[01:05:54] [SPEAKER_00]: So, it's like, it's not that she can't cross-examine people.

[01:05:58] [SPEAKER_00]: I thought she did a good job with that.

[01:05:59] [SPEAKER_00]: I think some people disagreed with me, but I thought she did a good job.

[01:06:02] [SPEAKER_00]: And I just think this one, this was not it.

[01:06:06] [SPEAKER_01]: This was crucial.

[01:06:07] [SPEAKER_01]: This was crucial because if you don't knock down what this man is saying about the phones,

[01:06:15] [SPEAKER_01]: then your case has been dealt a fatal blow.

[01:06:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Because if people walk away thinking, okay, the phone didn't move and the phone wasn't powered off and or on,

[01:06:26] [SPEAKER_01]: then you can't believe the defense's theory.

[01:06:29] [SPEAKER_01]: At least you can't believe it as it's been suggested to us in the opening and otherwise,

[01:06:34] [SPEAKER_01]: when we're talking about, you know, human hands turning on the phone at 430.

[01:06:38] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it sounds like human hands turned on the phone many, many hours ago and then never turned it off.

[01:06:43] [SPEAKER_00]: And that's what happened.

[01:06:44] [SPEAKER_01]: And those human hands were most likely liberties.

[01:06:46] [SPEAKER_00]: Libby's, yeah.

[01:06:48] [SPEAKER_01]: She focused it first on what we talked about earlier,

[01:06:53] [SPEAKER_01]: how the picture of Abby on the bridge that was posted to Snapchat does not appear on the phone.

[01:07:02] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's not clear what exactly the reason for that is, other than, you know, technology has glitches sometimes.

[01:07:09] [SPEAKER_01]: And these things happen.

[01:07:11] [SPEAKER_00]: I would imagine they do, but, you know, yeah.

[01:07:14] [SPEAKER_01]: She seemed to be proffering the possibility or positing the theory that maybe there was someone else there

[01:07:22] [SPEAKER_01]: who had another device that was somehow linked to Libby's account,

[01:07:27] [SPEAKER_01]: and maybe they took the picture and posted it.

[01:07:30] [SPEAKER_01]: But I don't know who that other person would be.

[01:07:33] [SPEAKER_00]: And wouldn't there be evidence like the person's phone appearing in the tower data that we're talking about?

[01:07:39] [SPEAKER_01]: And no one else saw this person, and you don't hear this person referenced in any way on the Bridge Guy video.

[01:07:46] [SPEAKER_01]: And so I find that incredibly, incredibly difficult to believe.

[01:07:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it feels hard to believe that there'd be no evidence for something as major as that.

[01:07:57] [SPEAKER_00]: That's just my opinion.

[01:08:00] [SPEAKER_01]: She did bring up that while Libby's phone did receive some iMessages throughout the day after she went missing,

[01:08:10] [SPEAKER_01]: she received no SMS messages between 4 or 6 and 4.33 a.m.

[01:08:17] [SPEAKER_01]: And then at 4.33 a.m., the phone suddenly got 15 messages.

[01:08:24] [SPEAKER_00]: And what she was indicating is that that is a clear sign that it had to be turned on.

[01:08:30] [SPEAKER_01]: But she didn't really attack his analysis of why...

[01:08:37] [SPEAKER_01]: He says that the data shows it was not turned on, and she didn't really punch a hole in it.

[01:08:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Not at all.

[01:08:43] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't even think she really tried.

[01:08:44] [SPEAKER_00]: There was one flashback to the three-day hearing when she asked him about,

[01:08:47] [SPEAKER_00]: like, tell us about the encrypted cache database.

[01:08:50] [SPEAKER_00]: And he was like, what?

[01:08:52] [SPEAKER_00]: And then finally she broke out a deposition he did with her where they talked about it,

[01:08:58] [SPEAKER_00]: and he explained that he was essentially like...

[01:09:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Wasn't he basically quoting something that they were asking him to do there?

[01:09:04] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.

[01:09:05] [SPEAKER_00]: That just seemed to go nowhere.

[01:09:07] [SPEAKER_01]: She did bring out that in 2019, the FBI apparently asked for the phone extraction data,

[01:09:13] [SPEAKER_01]: and they were not given that data.

[01:09:16] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think in the opening there were some suggestions that,

[01:09:20] [SPEAKER_01]: oh, if only the FBI had gotten involved.

[01:09:23] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, the same FBI whose behavioral analysis unit said very emphatically

[01:09:28] [SPEAKER_00]: that they thought that the sticks placement were not odinist in nature

[01:09:33] [SPEAKER_00]: and were in fact an undoing by the killer who might have sort of had some,

[01:09:39] [SPEAKER_00]: I guess, regrets afterwards.

[01:09:41] [SPEAKER_01]: And then I think she wanted...

[01:09:43] [SPEAKER_01]: She did not punch a hole in the analysis.

[01:09:48] [SPEAKER_01]: So this huge blow to the defense team's theory of the case is basically unanswered.

[01:09:56] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think she wanted to go out on a win.

[01:09:59] [SPEAKER_01]: And she asked a question that I, at the time, I was surprised by this question.

[01:10:06] [SPEAKER_01]: And I was...

[01:10:06] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, actually, can we do a little bit more with some...

[01:10:08] [SPEAKER_00]: Because I think there's other points, and I want to end with that.

[01:10:11] [SPEAKER_00]: Because that is the most important one.

[01:10:13] [SPEAKER_00]: But at one point, she was even talking about, like, she was kind of like,

[01:10:16] [SPEAKER_00]: well, you know, the one study that talks about how the Apple Fit data doesn't...

[01:10:23] [SPEAKER_00]: That app we were talking about that tracks steps,

[01:10:25] [SPEAKER_00]: it doesn't work in cars, but it only mentions that it starts working again if you hit a speed bump,

[01:10:31] [SPEAKER_00]: not if you hit, like, a pothole or something.

[01:10:33] [SPEAKER_00]: There was, like, a lot of weird semantics going on.

[01:10:35] [SPEAKER_00]: There was also a lot of consternation about, like,

[01:10:39] [SPEAKER_00]: whenever you do a phone extraction, all this data is deleted.

[01:10:42] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's data the jury will never see.

[01:10:46] [SPEAKER_00]: That's going to be clarified a little bit later.

[01:10:50] [SPEAKER_00]: I thought there was one, like, exchange where it really kind of fell apart for the whole, like,

[01:10:57] [SPEAKER_00]: the phone wasn't turned on.

[01:11:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, it almost seemed like she retreated at that point.

[01:11:04] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm having trouble finding in my notes at this moment.

[01:11:06] [SPEAKER_00]: But I do remember there was something where it was like,

[01:11:09] [SPEAKER_00]: wait, you're not even going to really, like, push on that?

[01:11:14] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.

[01:11:15] [SPEAKER_00]: Anyways, go with yours.

[01:11:16] [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm going to say what the question was.

[01:11:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Then I'm going to tell you what I thought a good objection would have been.

[01:11:24] [SPEAKER_01]: And then I will tell you what she said.

[01:11:26] [SPEAKER_01]: And then I will tell you what happened next.

[01:11:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Take us through.

[01:11:30] [SPEAKER_01]: So she obviously wants to end on a win.

[01:11:34] [SPEAKER_01]: And obviously there was nothing in her cross-examination to this point that could

[01:11:39] [SPEAKER_01]: at all be classified as a win.

[01:11:42] [SPEAKER_01]: And she has just witnessed the defense's theory been dealt a major blow.

[01:11:48] [SPEAKER_01]: So what she says is, well, you also extracted some information from some of Richard Allen's

[01:11:56] [SPEAKER_01]: devices.

[01:11:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Was there anything on those devices that linked him to Liberty German or Abigail Williams or to the murders?

[01:12:07] [SPEAKER_01]: And so I was expecting McClellan to object because that goes beyond the scope of direct examination.

[01:12:15] [SPEAKER_01]: There was nothing in the direct examination about Richard Allen's phones being examined.

[01:12:21] [SPEAKER_01]: So I was surprised by that.

[01:12:24] [SPEAKER_01]: But he did not object.

[01:12:25] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think he knew what he was doing because.

[01:12:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[01:12:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Because the answer the man gave, the witness gave was no.

[01:12:33] [SPEAKER_01]: There was nothing on those devices that linked him to those girls or to the murders.

[01:12:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[01:12:40] [SPEAKER_01]: So now it is time for redirect.

[01:12:45] [SPEAKER_01]: And.

[01:12:46] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, McClellan nailed this.

[01:12:49] [SPEAKER_01]: He said, okay, let's talk about Richard Allen's devices.

[01:12:53] [SPEAKER_01]: How many of Richard Allen's devices did you analyze?

[01:12:57] [SPEAKER_01]: And Cecil said he analyzed 23 of Richard Allen's devices.

[01:13:03] [SPEAKER_01]: So this is a man who has a lot of cell phones.

[01:13:08] [SPEAKER_00]: A lot of old cell phones.

[01:13:09] [SPEAKER_00]: And let me just say, I don't find that weird.

[01:13:12] [SPEAKER_00]: I think a lot of people keep their old cell phones maybe in a drawer.

[01:13:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, it's about to get weird.

[01:13:15] [SPEAKER_00]: It's about to get a little weird, though, given how many he has.

[01:13:19] [SPEAKER_01]: So he saved 23 cell phones.

[01:13:22] [SPEAKER_01]: And the thing is, we know the ID number of the phone he was using in 2017 because I believe that was shown in the Dan Doolin tip.

[01:13:32] [SPEAKER_00]: It was shown in the Dan Doolin tip.

[01:13:34] [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, basically to boil it down, all phones have like a very specific number.

[01:13:40] [SPEAKER_00]: It's not it's not your phone number.

[01:13:41] [SPEAKER_00]: It's like an identification number of the actual device.

[01:13:44] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[01:13:45] [SPEAKER_01]: And of the 23 phones that he had, that phone could not be found.

[01:13:51] [SPEAKER_01]: So apparently he saved every single phone he has owned in the last, I don't know, a decade or so, except for the phone he was using at the time of the murders.

[01:14:05] [SPEAKER_00]: 2017.

[01:14:06] [SPEAKER_00]: That's that.

[01:14:08] [SPEAKER_01]: That looks really bad.

[01:14:09] [SPEAKER_01]: That looks awful.

[01:14:10] [SPEAKER_01]: That looks that looks awful.

[01:14:12] [SPEAKER_01]: And it seemed to me the jury was reacting to that.

[01:14:15] [SPEAKER_01]: That that's kind of shocking information.

[01:14:17] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's kind of surprising that she like like that's like in soccer, a goalie like leaving the goal.

[01:14:26] [SPEAKER_00]: Like and trying to do something and then like somebody just scores from like the halfway mark.

[01:14:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Like it's like why would you why would you even that seems like a fact that you want to maybe like detonate yourselves like so you can almost make it sound better or like get ahead of it or something.

[01:14:44] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.

[01:14:45] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, like.

[01:14:46] [SPEAKER_00]: That was a that was devastating.

[01:14:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that was really surprising.

[01:14:53] [SPEAKER_01]: And then OJ did her recross.

[01:14:56] [SPEAKER_00]: Can I read the quote?

[01:14:58] [SPEAKER_00]: She she she recrossed with, quote, people generally don't keep their cell phones.

[01:15:03] [SPEAKER_00]: And and then McLeod objected for culture speculation, which was sustained.

[01:15:09] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that was kind of.

[01:15:11] [SPEAKER_00]: Was that kind of it or she may have asked one question, but I don't know if you got that.

[01:15:17] [SPEAKER_00]: But it was a weak ending.

[01:15:19] [SPEAKER_01]: She said, do you know for a fact that phone was not moving just because it doesn't show any steps being taken doesn't mean the phone itself was not moving.

[01:15:29] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's that's true.

[01:15:32] [SPEAKER_01]: But again, though, if they got in the car at two thirty.

[01:15:38] [SPEAKER_01]: And then we're returned to that same general vicinity at four thirty.

[01:15:42] [SPEAKER_01]: They were had to have taken steps out of the car.

[01:15:44] [SPEAKER_00]: That's what I don't understand.

[01:15:45] [SPEAKER_01]: At the very least, the killer would have had to go over and carry the phone to where he dropped.

[01:15:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Where are the where are the missing steps for that?

[01:15:56] [SPEAKER_00]: That's what I want to know.

[01:15:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Where are the missing steps for whatever they needed to be?

[01:16:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Because it's in the middle of the woods.

[01:16:03] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't.

[01:16:04] [SPEAKER_00]: How like I don't know.

[01:16:06] [SPEAKER_00]: It's there.

[01:16:08] [SPEAKER_00]: Now, this is interesting.

[01:16:08] [SPEAKER_00]: The judge.

[01:16:10] [SPEAKER_00]: They asked for questions and the judge and the parties, specifically OJ and McClelland, disappeared into this haze of white noise sounds for a long time.

[01:16:23] [SPEAKER_01]: There were a lot of questions.

[01:16:24] [SPEAKER_00]: There were a ton.

[01:16:25] [SPEAKER_00]: At first we were like, are the questions like contentious or they may be not going to answer them?

[01:16:30] [SPEAKER_00]: But it turned out there were just a lot of them to go through.

[01:16:32] [SPEAKER_01]: I didn't get all of them.

[01:16:33] [SPEAKER_00]: No, I didn't get all of them either.

[01:16:35] [SPEAKER_00]: A lot of them had to do with Snapchat.

[01:16:37] [SPEAKER_00]: People were very interested in Snapchat.

[01:16:39] [SPEAKER_00]: This is why I said I felt like it would have been good for the prosecution to maybe clear some more of that up.

[01:16:43] [SPEAKER_00]: Because it seemed like Cecil's like his role is more as a ICAC investigator, not as a Snapchat expert.

[01:16:52] [SPEAKER_00]: But there were certain things like how could this happen where the Snapchat wouldn't be in the cache?

[01:16:56] [SPEAKER_00]: And he's like, I don't know.

[01:16:57] [SPEAKER_00]: He didn't have that answer.

[01:16:59] [SPEAKER_01]: And then they had like questions.

[01:17:02] [SPEAKER_01]: They were given a copy of Cecil's report.

[01:17:04] [SPEAKER_01]: We were not given such a copy.

[01:17:06] [SPEAKER_01]: But apparently there's like some blank spaces in the report.

[01:17:09] [SPEAKER_01]: And the jurors were concerned that meant something was being hidden.

[01:17:12] [SPEAKER_01]: But no, it was just a choice by Cecil because he wanted to keep information about the strength of the phone battery separate.

[01:17:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[01:17:22] [SPEAKER_01]: But I want to – I don't want to try your patience.

[01:17:25] [SPEAKER_01]: But I do want to mention what the last questions were that were asked.

[01:17:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Because, again, it's a heck of a way to end the day for the defense.

[01:17:44] [SPEAKER_01]: So a juror asked, how did you determine that Richard Allen had no connection to Liberty German and Abigail Williams from his devices?

[01:17:55] [SPEAKER_01]: And, again, please keep in mind that the only devices they tested were devices from years other than 2017.

[01:18:02] [SPEAKER_01]: And Cecil said, well, I found nothing on the devices that actually connected him to knowing these girls.

[01:18:11] [SPEAKER_00]: So like that would mean like calls with Liberty or Abby.

[01:18:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Facebook messages, Snapchat messages.

[01:18:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Being friends on social media.

[01:18:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Instagram, what have you.

[01:18:19] [SPEAKER_01]: So then McClellan asks a follow-up.

[01:18:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, so you didn't find anything indicating that they knew each other.

[01:18:27] [SPEAKER_01]: But did you find anything to indicate that he had searched for information about them after the murders?

[01:18:33] [SPEAKER_01]: And it turned out that, yes, Richard Allen did do some searches on his devices for stories about Liberty German and Abigail Williams.

[01:18:43] [SPEAKER_00]: And then I thought it wasn't OJ's only thing.

[01:18:45] [SPEAKER_00]: But that was after the murders, right?

[01:18:48] [SPEAKER_00]: It's like, yeah, that's ominous.

[01:18:51] [SPEAKER_00]: I think this was a terrible, terrible day for the defense.

[01:18:56] [SPEAKER_01]: This was a disastrous day for the defense in my mind.

[01:19:00] [SPEAKER_00]: We learned the box cutter thing.

[01:19:01] [SPEAKER_00]: The pathologist who examined the bodies believes that a box cutter is potentially a likely option as far as weapons go.

[01:19:08] [SPEAKER_00]: So obviously you can't say that for certain because that's not how this works.

[01:19:12] [SPEAKER_00]: But that's not good given that Allen was confessing to killing them with a box cutter.

[01:19:17] [SPEAKER_00]: That's very bad for the defense.

[01:19:20] [SPEAKER_00]: It's very bad for the defense that this whole the phone couldn't have been turned on except by human hands thing.

[01:19:27] [SPEAKER_00]: It seems to be completely falling apart before their eyes.

[01:19:29] [SPEAKER_00]: I think, you know, they can have experts come in and say whatever they want.

[01:19:35] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm sure they will about it.

[01:19:36] [SPEAKER_00]: No, no, no.

[01:19:37] [SPEAKER_00]: It's just the hands of the humans that could do that.

[01:19:39] [SPEAKER_00]: But like, frankly, I don't know.

[01:19:42] [SPEAKER_00]: I think it's going to be a big hurdle to overcome.

[01:19:45] [SPEAKER_00]: And now we're hearing that he was searching about the crime afterwards.

[01:19:50] [SPEAKER_00]: Now, listen, he's a local.

[01:19:52] [SPEAKER_00]: That could that could be that could range anywhere from being very innocuous to very creepy.

[01:19:58] [SPEAKER_00]: But it's definitely not a good thing.

[01:20:00] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think.

[01:20:03] [SPEAKER_00]: I'd be very curious to see what that that bears out.

[01:20:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I'd say pretty bad day for the defense.

[01:20:10] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't I mean, like, that's just our take.

[01:20:12] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if you'll hear that anywhere else, frankly, because I feel like there's a lot of spinning going on.

[01:20:18] [SPEAKER_00]: But we're just telling you like it is like this is how we see it.

[01:20:21] [SPEAKER_00]: And I you know, if if the prosecution has a bad day tomorrow, we'll tell you like I don't I don't care.

[01:20:27] [SPEAKER_00]: I want you to kind of have an accurate assessment of what's going on here.

[01:20:30] [SPEAKER_00]: But just just some of this testimony seemed like very problematic for them.

[01:20:34] [SPEAKER_00]: And they're going to really have to be, I think, super strategic about how they seek to overcome it.

[01:20:40] [SPEAKER_01]: I agree.

[01:20:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Because I think things are stacking right now.

[01:20:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Things are definitely stacking.

[01:20:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Things are stacking and they need to knock the stack down.

[01:20:48] [SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[01:20:49] [SPEAKER_00]: Like that's their job.

[01:20:51] [SPEAKER_00]: And they'll have a chance.

[01:20:52] [SPEAKER_00]: They'll have a time to present their case.

[01:20:54] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think let's let's hear them out and let's see what happens.

[01:20:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Let's see what their theory ultimately is.

[01:20:59] [SPEAKER_00]: I almost wondering if they're kind of like crafting it on the fly as they're kind of getting bad news.

[01:21:03] [SPEAKER_00]: OK, well, we can't say that, but we can do.

[01:21:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, they have file to bring Odinism back.

[01:21:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, good.

[01:21:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Excellent.

[01:21:10] [SPEAKER_00]: Hello, darkness, my old friend.

[01:21:15] [SPEAKER_00]: So basically, they're saying that Brian Olahi was talking about sticks or some of the CSIs were talking about sticks.

[01:21:22] [SPEAKER_00]: So sticks equal runes equal Odinism.

[01:21:26] [SPEAKER_00]: That seems like it's very unlikely to work.

[01:21:30] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, listen, are we done?

[01:21:31] [SPEAKER_01]: I think we're done.

[01:21:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, thanks, everyone, for listening to us.

[01:21:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Sorry we're so long winded.

[01:21:36] [SPEAKER_00]: We're just trying to get you as much detail as possible.

[01:21:39] [SPEAKER_00]: But thanks very much and take care.

[01:21:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Bye bye.

[01:21:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet.

[01:21:45] [SPEAKER_01]: If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us at murdersheet at gmail dot com.

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[01:22:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks again for listening.

[01:23:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks so much for sticking around to the end of this Murder Sheet episode.

[01:23:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Just as a quick post-roll ad, we wanted to tell you again about our friend Jason Blair's wonderful Silver Linings Handbook.

[01:23:15] [SPEAKER_00]: This show is phenomenal.

[01:23:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Whether you are interested in true crime, the criminal justice system, law, mental health, stories of marginalized people, overcoming tragedy, well-being, like he does it all.

[01:23:29] [SPEAKER_00]: This is a show for you.

[01:23:31] [SPEAKER_00]: He has so many different conversations with interesting people, people whose loved ones have gone missing.

[01:23:37] [SPEAKER_00]: Other podcasters in the true crime space.

[01:23:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Just interesting people with interesting life experiences.

[01:23:46] [SPEAKER_00]: And Jason's gift, I think, is just being an incredibly empathetic and compassionate interviewer, where he's really letting his guests tell their stories and asking really interesting questions along the way, guiding those conversations forward.

[01:23:58] [SPEAKER_00]: I would liken it to like you're kind of almost sitting down with friends and sort of just hearing these fascinating tales that you wouldn't get otherwise.

[01:24:06] [SPEAKER_00]: Because he just has that ability as an interviewer to tease it out and really make it interesting for his audience.

[01:24:13] [SPEAKER_01]: On a personal level, Jason is frankly a great guy.

[01:24:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[01:24:17] [SPEAKER_01]: He's been a really good friend to us.

[01:24:20] [SPEAKER_01]: And so it's fun to be able to hit a button on my phone and get a little dose of Jason talking to people whenever I want.

[01:24:28] [SPEAKER_01]: It's a really terrific show.

[01:24:30] [SPEAKER_01]: We really recommend it highly.

[01:24:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[01:24:32] [SPEAKER_00]: I think our audience will like it.

[01:24:34] [SPEAKER_00]: And you've already met Jason if you listen consistently to our show.

[01:24:36] [SPEAKER_00]: He's been on our show a couple times.

[01:24:37] [SPEAKER_00]: We've been on his show.

[01:24:39] [SPEAKER_00]: He's a terrific guest.

[01:24:40] [SPEAKER_00]: I say this in one of our ads about him, but I literally always – I'm like, oh, yeah, I remember when Jason said this.

[01:24:46] [SPEAKER_00]: That really resonated.

[01:24:47] [SPEAKER_00]: Like I do quote him in conversations sometimes because he really has a good grasp of different complicated issues.

[01:24:53] [SPEAKER_01]: She quotes him to me all the time.

[01:24:54] [SPEAKER_00]: I do – I'm like, remember when Jason said this?

[01:24:55] [SPEAKER_00]: That was so right.

[01:24:56] [SPEAKER_00]: So, I mean, I think if we're doing that, I think – and you like us, I think you should give it a shot.

[01:25:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Give it a try.

[01:25:02] [SPEAKER_00]: I think you'll really enjoy it.

[01:25:03] [SPEAKER_00]: And, again, he does a range of different topics, but they all kind of have the similar theme of compassion, of overcoming suffering, of dealing with suffering, of mental health, wellness, things like that.

[01:25:14] [SPEAKER_00]: There's kind of a common through line of compassion and empathy there that I think we find very nice.

[01:25:19] [SPEAKER_00]: And we work on a lot of stories that can be very tough, and we try to bring compassion and empathy to it.

[01:25:25] [SPEAKER_00]: But this is something that almost can be like if you're kind of feeling a little burned out by true crime, I think this is kind of the life-affirming stuff that can be nice to listen to in a podcast.

[01:25:36] [SPEAKER_01]: It's compassionate.

[01:25:37] [SPEAKER_01]: It's affirming.

[01:25:39] [SPEAKER_01]: But I also want to emphasize it's smart.

[01:25:43] [SPEAKER_01]: People – Jason is a very intelligent, articulate person.

[01:25:47] [SPEAKER_01]: This is a smart show, but it's an accessible show.

[01:25:51] [SPEAKER_01]: I think you'll all really enjoy it.

[01:25:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and he's got a great community that he's building.

[01:25:55] [SPEAKER_00]: So we're really excited to be a part of that.

[01:25:57] [SPEAKER_00]: We're fans of the show.

[01:25:58] [SPEAKER_00]: We love it.

[01:25:59] [SPEAKER_00]: And we would strongly encourage you all to check it out.

[01:26:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Download some episodes.

[01:26:03] [SPEAKER_00]: Listen.

[01:26:03] [SPEAKER_00]: I think you'll understand what we're talking about once you do.

[01:26:06] [SPEAKER_00]: But anyways, you can listen to The Silver Linings Handbook wherever you listen to podcasts.

[01:26:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Wherever you listen to podcasts.

[01:26:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Very easy to find.

[01:26:13] [SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.

[01:26:14] Absolutely.