The Delphi Murders: Richard Allen on Trial: Day Four: The Video

[00:00:01] Content Warning, this episode contains discussion of the brutal murder of two girls, including some discussion of the crime scene.

[00:00:10] So today is Tuesday, October 22nd, I want to say.

[00:00:15] I want to say that.

[00:00:16] Because it's true.

[00:00:18] The fourth day of trial in the Delphi Murders case.

[00:00:21] Of course, Richard Allen stands accused of brutally murdering teenagers Liberty German and Abigail Williams in Delphi, Indiana in 2017.

[00:00:32] And the trial is ongoing.

[00:00:34] Currently, the prosecution led by Carroll County Prosecutor Nicholas McClelland is making its case.

[00:00:39] Right.

[00:00:40] So we have a lot to go.

[00:00:41] We have a lot of evidence for the prosecution to present, but we also have a lot of evidence and kind of counterclaims by the defense to put on eventually.

[00:00:49] So things are far from settled right now.

[00:00:51] And we saw the video.

[00:00:52] We saw the entire video today and will tell you what we saw and what we heard.

[00:00:59] My name is Anya Kane.

[00:01:01] I'm a journalist.

[00:01:02] And I'm Kevin Greenlee.

[00:01:03] I'm an attorney.

[00:01:04] And this is the murder sheet.

[00:01:06] We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews and deep dives into murder cases.

[00:01:13] We're the murder sheet.

[00:01:14] And this is the Delphi Murders.

[00:01:17] Richard Allen on trial.

[00:01:18] Day four.

[00:01:19] The video.

[00:02:06] So one of the few things many people may know about the Delphi Murders case is that it in some ways centers around a video footage captured by Liberty German on her cell phone,

[00:02:18] on her iPhone before she and her best friend, Abby were abducted from the Monon High Bridge in Delphi, Indiana.

[00:02:25] And this footage led to the capture of the image of a man who became known as Bridge Guy and who is believed to be the person behind their murder.

[00:02:37] And so there's been so much speculation and discussion of this video over the years with only a bit of audio, an image or two, and then kind of a little brief series of images or little clip that you can see of the bridge guy walking.

[00:02:55] But we've never seen the whole thing.

[00:02:57] We've only heard it discussed.

[00:02:58] But it was played in its entirety twice today.

[00:03:01] And we'll discuss that before we do.

[00:03:03] There's other witnesses to discuss.

[00:03:06] I think you had a personal note you wanted to mention.

[00:03:08] Oh, I just wanted to say thanks so much for everyone to reach out and ask if I was okay.

[00:03:12] And if we were okay, I'm okay.

[00:03:14] Yesterday was a bad day.

[00:03:15] But today's a new day.

[00:03:16] And we're going to keep going and figure it out.

[00:03:20] And keep our fingers crossed for tomorrow.

[00:03:22] I also wanted to mention that our friend Thomas came to the trial today.

[00:03:28] And as you will see, he kind of picked a good day to come because there was a lot of interesting information, including the playing of the video that Anya mentioned.

[00:03:39] It was really nice to hang out with Thomas.

[00:03:40] But also, like, I feel like I have become closer and like there's a solidarity in the line, all the people who are breathing cold to go in here.

[00:03:50] And that's nice to see.

[00:03:52] I've talked a bit about the chaos and how things get heated.

[00:03:54] That happens.

[00:03:54] But I also have had so many pleasant conversations with some genuinely nice and interesting people.

[00:03:59] And so thanks to them.

[00:04:00] And, you know, it's definitely that's a positive side to what is generally just a difficult and very sad situation.

[00:04:09] We're all here because of this horrible tragedy.

[00:04:11] But lots of nice people out there.

[00:04:14] And it's a pleasure to meet some of them.

[00:04:15] So the first witness today was actually finishing up some old business from yesterday.

[00:04:21] You want to dive in?

[00:04:24] So this was crime scene investigator for the Indiana State Police, Brian Olahi.

[00:04:29] Right.

[00:04:29] Am I saying that right?

[00:04:30] I believe you are.

[00:04:30] I believe I am.

[00:04:31] And sorry if I'm not.

[00:04:34] This is a witness who came to discuss his work on the crime scene in the Delphi murders case.

[00:04:41] And, yeah, as Kevin said, he started yesterday but did not finish.

[00:04:48] And so we were still in direct examination today.

[00:04:52] And one thing, we kind of got some hints yesterday that the defense is going to try to suggest that the bullet recovered at the crime scene is not the bullet that's going to be shown to the jury.

[00:05:08] I'm not sure why they would suggest that other than that would be convenient for them if that was the case.

[00:05:14] They don't really seem to have any evidence for that, at least no evidence that they've suggested so far.

[00:05:18] But in order to kind of deal with that claim almost before it's actually made, prosecutor James Luttrell.

[00:05:29] Luttrell.

[00:05:30] Luttrell.

[00:05:31] Again, I apologize to him and his family.

[00:05:33] He spent some time with this witness this morning just discussing the procedures that are followed by the Indiana State Police when it comes to handling of evidence.

[00:05:47] They went as in-depth as to talking about, like, the case number filing system and how that works and how, in this case, it was 17 ISP C001748.

[00:05:59] And the 17 at the beginning refers to 2017.

[00:06:03] ISP is because it's an ISP case.

[00:06:05] And the C is because it's a criminal case.

[00:06:07] And so all of those kind of – it's just a complicated system involving lots of – it sounds like – bags, seals, numbers, case numbers being assigned.

[00:06:19] Tracking numbers, stickers with barcodes.

[00:06:22] You can't just leave evidence out in your car or whatever.

[00:06:26] Like, there has to be a chain of custody.

[00:06:28] There has to be – he talked about at one point the Indiana State Police Laboratory.

[00:06:33] If they get something without, like, a seal on it, they just won't do anything with it because that's against procedure.

[00:06:39] So they were talking about all of the complicated measures that go into, you know, what basically Olai indicated was that the most important thing that they do is protect, preserve evidence.

[00:06:51] Yeah, and every bit of evidence that's put in one of these envelopes or whatever thing it's stored in also has a sticker with a unique barcode on it that's used to help with tracking.

[00:07:03] So he explained all this in detail.

[00:07:05] And then he went through and they started talking.

[00:07:09] They held up a variety of sealed bags or small boxes that had evidence in them that had been retrieved from the creek, such as the tie-dyed shirt, a sock, a pink sock.

[00:07:26] Purple sock, a Sonoma brand pink underwear, a green head scarf, a spaghetti strap size L shirt.

[00:07:36] Right.

[00:07:36] So there were all these various things.

[00:07:39] He also discussed some of the things that were recovered from the larger crime scene.

[00:07:44] So, again, we didn't see this stuff.

[00:07:46] We saw the containers that he said that, oh, this is a paper bag and inside this sealed paper bag is a white bag and that white bag contains so-and-so.

[00:08:00] So he really wanted to stress the effort they take to protect the integrity of this evidence.

[00:08:07] Yeah.

[00:08:07] In one of the bags, I believe, was the .40 caliber Smith & Wesson cartilage.

[00:08:13] Cartridge.

[00:08:13] Cartridge.

[00:08:14] Cartridge.

[00:08:15] Jeez.

[00:08:16] Sorry.

[00:08:16] That was part of the things that were recovered from the crime scene.

[00:08:19] Other things that were recovered from the crime scene included swabs they took off of various parts of the girls' bodies.

[00:08:28] And as they explained yesterday, when they would take these swabs off the bodies, they would try to find a place that didn't have a lot of blood on it.

[00:08:35] Because the blood would likely be the blood of the victim, either Abby or Libby's blood.

[00:08:41] And they were hoping to find some sort of biological material that would be linked to the killer.

[00:08:46] So some swabs in this case included inside Libby's left wrist, right wrist, above her belly button.

[00:08:52] In addition, things like swabs around their thighs.

[00:08:57] There were talk of a fibrous material in one of the girls' pinky fingers.

[00:09:03] You know, organic material.

[00:09:04] There was a couple of different discussions of what they were looking for.

[00:09:09] The next item that really jumped out at me that they took, and this is not going to come as a surprise to anyone, that they showed us inside here is the iPhone.

[00:09:21] Libby's iPhone that was collected from the scene.

[00:09:28] Absolutely.

[00:09:29] Obviously, that was very important.

[00:09:35] Was there anything else about, oh, another couple of things.

[00:09:40] There was some talk yesterday where the defense attorneys, I forget whether it was Rosie or Baldwin in their cross, were asking one of the crime scene investigators, oh, was there a rape kit done?

[00:09:50] Was there a rape kit done?

[00:09:52] At one point, Latrell handed Olai a couple of boxes which were similar in size to a cigar box, only a little bit smaller.

[00:10:04] And it was explained that each one of those was an Indiana sexual assault kit, and there was one done on each of the girls.

[00:10:13] They didn't discuss the results of that, but it has been reported that neither girl was sexually assaulted.

[00:10:20] Absolutely.

[00:10:23] And they talked again about why they would dry off some of these things at the Putnamville Post, and it's because they don't want the evidence becoming mildewy.

[00:10:32] So it means you're removing the moisture that's caused by – they talked about the water, but also blood and things like that.

[00:10:41] So it's about preserving evidence for the long term.

[00:10:44] And then Brad Rosie gave his cross-examination.

[00:10:48] Yes. And he – one thing he asked early on was, well, is it common to find Smith & Wesson cartridges?

[00:10:56] And the witness says, I wouldn't say so.

[00:10:59] Because they were trying to get him to say, oh, yeah, anytime you walk in a park in Indiana or in the woods, you see bullets lying everywhere from, I guess, hunters.

[00:11:09] Because they were trying to – what they want is to create the impression that this cartridge had nothing to do with the crime scene, because that would be what's convenient for them.

[00:11:17] And that was the impression they were trying to put out there.

[00:11:24] Yes. One thing with the defense attorneys, and I think attorneys in general tend to do this, is there's kind of this – all throughout a statement that might be kind of true in some instances, but maybe – it's very broad, but kind of make you agree with them.

[00:11:42] I know, like, when I've – when I've experienced being deposed, I feel like that was kind of a thing where it would be like, here you go.

[00:11:50] And, like, you have to be like, well, yes, but no.

[00:11:53] And, you know, like, yes, a lot of people have guns in Indiana, but I don't quite agree with everything.

[00:12:01] Yeah.

[00:12:02] Rosie did mention – he asked – you mentioned all of the swabs that were collected.

[00:12:09] Was there any DNA on any of these swabs that could be linked to Richard Allen?

[00:12:15] And the question was not that I'm aware of.

[00:12:17] Well, didn't he basically go through piece by piece any swabs on the wrists, any swabs on the thighs?

[00:12:25] So I think that was kind of meant to really send a point to the jury.

[00:12:29] Hey, all of these places, all of these swabs, it's – there's no DNA.

[00:12:35] Right.

[00:12:36] And I think that that's kind of – that's something he was able to convey to the jury just through the repetition.

[00:12:40] So I thought that was a good moment for Rosie.

[00:12:43] What are some of the other things that jumped out at you from this cross-examination?

[00:12:48] I thought – I think Brian Olajai was a good witness for the prosecution.

[00:12:53] He seemed very kind of cool, you know, kind of like – you know, he – like, not even cool, just more of like – I mean, cool-headed, you know what I mean?

[00:13:02] Like, he wasn't wearing, like, sunglasses or something.

[00:13:04] Like, he was – he was just kind of, like, not really losing his temper but also not really giving the defense an inch when he felt like what they were saying was –

[00:13:15] Like, he – like, if he was saying – like, he would sometimes agree with him and be like, oh, yeah, that's – you know, like, that's fair or whatever.

[00:13:21] But in other situations, he'd be like, no.

[00:13:23] Like, what you're saying is just not how things work or not true.

[00:13:26] They kept on trying to get him to, like, admit, like, do you wish you'd, like, videotaped the bullet being extracted from the ground?

[00:13:32] And he's like – I feel like he kept on, like – on things like that, he'd be like, that's not how we do things.

[00:13:36] So, no.

[00:13:38] So, they got him to say one thing was – like, he – they talked about, like, I guess in crime scene investigations, you don't really want to take photos with, like, a crime scene investigator in them at all.

[00:13:49] Like, so, like, they talked about – I think it was someone's hand, like, holding up a piece of evidence.

[00:13:54] And they're like, is that unprofessional?

[00:13:56] And he's like, well, it's not really the way I would prefer for things to be done.

[00:13:59] But, like, I don't know if I'd call it unprofessional.

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[00:15:39] I felt like Rosie worked himself more up into a lather crossing this witness than broke down the witness.

[00:15:49] Yeah, and he returned to this idea that in the woods in Indiana there's bullets everywhere.

[00:15:55] Because at one point he said, well, you're a hunter.

[00:15:58] Is it unusual to find an unexpended round lying on the ground?

[00:16:04] And the guy said, yeah, it is unusual.

[00:16:06] He also noted that you would expect, like, if that was the case, to find some shotgun rounds, right?

[00:16:13] Yeah.

[00:16:14] So, like, a different type of gun, not like a handgun.

[00:16:17] And then Rosie switched tacks because, you know, like, okay, well.

[00:16:21] And then Rosie started getting into this thing where it's like, well, don't you live in the country?

[00:16:25] Aren't people just going out into the backwoods and shooting off handguns all night?

[00:16:30] That doesn't really seem to be the case.

[00:16:31] Well, like, I mean, I think that probably happens sometimes.

[00:16:34] But I think one thing that Latrell was able to do to kind of, like, reel that back in was essentially say, okay, well, did you find any other unspent rounds throughout the entire search process of this?

[00:16:47] Not only Ground Zero where, like, the main crime scene stuff was, but, like, throughout this whole area that you were looking towards, like, from the bridge onward?

[00:16:55] And the answer was no.

[00:16:57] This was one bullet.

[00:16:58] This was one cartilage.

[00:17:01] Cartridge.

[00:17:02] Cartridge.

[00:17:03] Oh, my God.

[00:17:03] I'm going to be doing this the whole episode.

[00:17:05] I'm so sorry.

[00:17:06] And then I wanted to mention an interesting point that happened is Rosie, he was discussing this cartridge.

[00:17:15] And he says, you know, this is what we on the defense call the magic bullet.

[00:17:20] And, of course, he says that because he wants the jury to suggest there's something untoward or not entirely accurate about this.

[00:17:29] Why is he citing JFK lore but it doesn't even make sense because the magic bullet is supposed to be a bullet that does stuff it's not supposed to do.

[00:17:35] So, like, I don't even – whatever.

[00:17:38] James Latrell.

[00:17:40] Am I pronouncing that correctly?

[00:17:41] Latrell.

[00:17:41] James Latrell was – got a little fiery today.

[00:17:46] He started making lots of objections.

[00:17:48] And he made one here.

[00:17:49] He said, why is he calling it the magic bullet?

[00:17:52] His opinion or what they call it on their side is really irrelevant.

[00:17:56] Oh, yeah, that was brutal.

[00:17:57] And so the judge agreed.

[00:17:59] And then Rosie still wasn't quite ready to give up on this tack.

[00:18:03] And he asked the witness, will you ever heard the phrase the magic bullet?

[00:18:07] And at that point, Gull said, just refer to it by the, you know, evidence or exhibit number.

[00:18:13] It's like they – sometimes it feels like this defense team cares more about, like, branding things than anything else.

[00:18:19] And I just don't feel like that serves them from a legal perspective.

[00:18:22] I will also say I just want to interject here.

[00:18:24] But anyway, one thing I wrote down, Ola High is good at gray rocking.

[00:18:29] I feel like that's what we were seeing.

[00:18:31] What do you mean by gray rocking?

[00:18:32] Gray rocking is when you just kind of are blank and you're just kind of not really giving a lot of energy back to someone who's kind of pestering you.

[00:18:38] I mean, I'm sure there's a more defined psychological thing, but that's kind of what I'm saying here.

[00:18:45] I was – we had a better vantage point of Richard Allen throughout this thing.

[00:18:48] Again, he's wearing his civilian clothes.

[00:18:51] He's, for the past couple of days, I felt been having a much more normal affect.

[00:18:56] He smiles.

[00:18:56] He laughs.

[00:18:57] Sometimes he makes eye contact with his family and his kind of – his face lights up.

[00:19:02] Today, for whatever reason, there were a couple of instances where I felt the pretrial behavior of what I would call like kind of maybe glares or stares, depending on what your perspective is, are back.

[00:19:18] He's kind of turning around.

[00:19:19] And I wasn't sure if he was looking at the audience or he was trying to catch his family's eye and upset that he wasn't able to or he was just staring at them.

[00:19:31] I don't know.

[00:19:32] And it's impossible to know because we unfortunately cannot ask him, hey, what was going on here?

[00:19:36] But that kind of thing seems to be back today at least.

[00:19:41] And I think his affect was a little bit more – maybe worse today.

[00:19:50] I would agree with that.

[00:19:52] I wanted to highlight a moment where I felt the witness got the better of Rosie.

[00:19:58] Rosie and Baldwin are really trying to concentrate on what they claim is the notion that the recovery of the bullet wasn't documented in as full a way as they claim it should have been.

[00:20:12] They want to see videotape of it being picked up or what have you.

[00:20:15] And another objection that Rosie said today was, well, after the bullet was taken out of the ground, there should be pictures of what the ground looks like with the bullet not in it.

[00:20:27] Why wasn't that area of the ground ever photographed?

[00:20:29] And the guy said, well, it was.

[00:20:33] And indeed it was.

[00:20:35] But Rosie said, well, that's not a close-up.

[00:20:37] I mean you should have a close-up.

[00:20:39] You should have a bunch of cool YouTuber lights shining down on it.

[00:20:43] Like, I mean at some point it's like – like when you hear a cross like that, you want them to at least be on top of the research so they're not asking questions where they can just – can be thrown back in their face.

[00:20:54] And I want to – again, it was – I want to mention again it was a fiery prosecutor, James Luttrell.

[00:20:59] He really was objecting a lot.

[00:21:03] And one thing he was objecting to, Rosie has a way of asking questions.

[00:21:10] One of his favorite forms would be something of the equivalent of Anya, wouldn't you agree that you're a big idiot?

[00:21:19] He really likes this phrase, would you agree?

[00:21:23] How dare you?

[00:21:23] And Prosecutor Luttrell started objecting saying this isn't a way to ask a question because what he's really doing is he is using the question to tell the jury his opinion.

[00:21:34] So instead of saying, Anya, would you agree you're a big idiot?

[00:21:37] You should say, Anya, do you believe you're a big idiot?

[00:21:41] Yeah.

[00:21:42] Does that make sense?

[00:21:42] Or maybe ask questions around some times I acted like an idiot and maybe kind of start the process that way.

[00:21:50] And Rosie had a really difficult time giving up that particular rhetorical style of asking a question.

[00:21:59] He seemed to be tripping up a lot over it.

[00:22:01] And so he was really thrown off his game by that.

[00:22:05] I know you said he had a – I think you said it was a fiery cross situation yesterday.

[00:22:10] Today I felt like maybe because of the witness, maybe because of Luttrell's intervention with the objections, he – it didn't seem as – he seemed very mad, but it didn't seem like as effective.

[00:22:24] And when I think of Rosie, I think his passion can play well.

[00:22:28] I think that kind of anger and passion, I think that can be a good thing for any attorney, especially when you're cross-examining.

[00:22:34] And I think that could be something he's good at and certainly I'm sure we'll see him be good at that at times in this trial.

[00:22:40] But I also think that when you don't wield it with sort of some selectivity, it ends up just kind of being abrasive.

[00:22:51] And also just like making mistakes, you know.

[00:22:55] And so I think it's a situation where maybe like – I don't know, like dialing it back a little bit and then really letting it out when it makes sense.

[00:23:03] That's just my thing.

[00:23:05] My think.

[00:23:06] That's just my thought.

[00:23:07] Whew.

[00:23:08] One thing I thought was also interesting is there was a lot of – at one point Rosie was getting in on like time of death.

[00:23:15] Why don't we have time of death and whatnot?

[00:23:17] And Olai came out with, quote, I think time of death is a very imprecise science.

[00:23:23] And I wrote down Luttrell's quote here, quote, an attorney's opinion is not relevant to this jury.

[00:23:30] I think, yeah, I think Rosie's questioning definitely was getting – you know, was taking off Luttrell and then he started making all these objections.

[00:23:41] And I mean –

[00:23:43] And it was working.

[00:23:44] Yeah, it was working.

[00:23:45] So in redirect, Luttrell asked the witness, you know, isn't it – he said, why wouldn't you want to take lots and lots of pictures of you holding a crucial piece of evidence in your hands?

[00:23:59] And I'm paraphrasing, but the witness explained basically the more you handle a piece of evidence, the more you risk basically contaminating it by, you know, spreading something or transferring something from yourself to that.

[00:24:16] A recurring theme from the defense has been, well, if the girls really were dead and out there all night, there would have been some sort of scavenger activity by animals presumably doing something awful to the girl's body.

[00:24:31] And so Luttrell just asked this man, if a person is dead outside overnight, would we expect to see critter activity?

[00:24:40] And the answer was no.

[00:24:42] He said I would – he said basically in terms of how they were found, you know, if they were left out overnight in the cold, quote, I would expect to find them in a very similar condition to how I found them.

[00:24:55] And it was – the point was made to Rosie, quote, at that time of – at the time of year, insect activity is essentially non-existent.

[00:25:08] And so what Olahi said and what I didn't realize is that with the insects, like often the insects are the things drawing the other predators to a body.

[00:25:17] And so lack of insect activity – and he noted there were – he didn't really see any insects out and about in mid-February in northern Indiana.

[00:25:27] But maybe that delayed any sort of thing.

[00:25:29] Even if there were – I mean, I don't really know enough about Indiana wildlife to say that there couldn't be, you know, a turkey vulture or something like that.

[00:25:37] But, like, it may have delayed that awful process.

[00:25:41] They were only out there at night.

[00:25:44] And, again, it was quite cold out.

[00:25:46] So this is one thing that I – like, I'm very much cognizant of the fact that the defense needs to make the most vigorous argument that works to their side.

[00:25:59] But, you know, and that's what they're going to do and that's what they're going to present to the jury and that's their jobs.

[00:26:04] But as an observer, that doesn't mean I have to necessarily, like, give credence to everything they say.

[00:26:10] And sometimes as somebody who tries to, like, keep an open mind, it kind of irks me when they sort of try to be, like, no predator activity equals kidnapping where they were held and left, you know, seemingly unmarked and then brought back and murdered.

[00:26:27] And it's like – I just – I feel like they're asking us to go on a lot of logical leaps here.

[00:26:31] And I wish they were just focusing maybe a little bit more on some of the problems with the state's case.

[00:26:37] Because, like, I don't like being told to go on flights of fancy.

[00:26:43] It's like, no.

[00:26:44] Like, I don't.

[00:26:45] I just feel like that's –

[00:26:47] Yeah, I agree.

[00:26:47] You know, like, I don't like if it's big.

[00:26:50] Okay, no predators.

[00:26:52] Then hop to – you know, it's like the freaking phantom toll booth jumping to conclusions.

[00:26:56] You know, it's – I just – I don't like it.

[00:26:58] I don't find it logical and I don't find it compelling.

[00:27:01] I want to move on to the questions asked by the jury at this point.

[00:27:06] And I want to say if you care enough about this case to be listening to this program, you care about this case a lot.

[00:27:13] Because we – it shows you really want to get all of the details and get into the nitty-gritty.

[00:27:18] And so maybe you have had a concern that perhaps the jury would not share our interests.

[00:27:25] Well, juries get a bad rep in true crime.

[00:27:26] Everyone's like, well, you know, they only pick people who don't know the case.

[00:27:29] Guess what?

[00:27:30] That's usually a very good thing.

[00:27:32] And I want to say the questions that these jurors have been asking at least to me indicate that they really are engaged with the details of the case.

[00:27:43] And I think this first one is a case in point.

[00:27:47] As we know, Abby was wearing some of Libby's clothes when her body was found.

[00:27:53] And so a juror had a question.

[00:27:57] Here's the question.

[00:27:58] Did the undergrowth underneath Abby look as if it had been disrupted, which might indicate that she was dressed as she lay there?

[00:28:08] I think that's a great question.

[00:28:10] It really is.

[00:28:10] And the answer was that there was no disruption.

[00:28:15] The next question is, when evidence is tested in lab, how is it resealed?

[00:28:23] So this shows me that they're really engaging with this issue of how is this evidence being tracked?

[00:28:30] How can we be sure that the integrity of it is being kept?

[00:28:35] And how did he answer that?

[00:28:37] He talked.

[00:28:38] He said, basically, may I illustrate?

[00:28:40] So he took one of the pieces of evidence, you know, one of these kind of brown paper bags that had been, you know, discussed where he was talking about there's this bag and then inside is a bag and inside of that is a converse shoe.

[00:28:52] And he talked about how like there would be sort of a bottom side where you could open it with a sharp edge tool.

[00:29:01] And there would be this numbering system, you know, like people initialing things, you know, from the lab.

[00:29:09] It basically kind of talked us through a bit of the process.

[00:29:12] And then another question was about like, you know, do you change gloves at the scene?

[00:29:17] So if you're handling Abby's body and then suddenly you're handling Libby's body, how do you prevent?

[00:29:23] That's a great question.

[00:29:25] Cross-contamination because that could cause a huge problem.

[00:29:27] And he said, quote, I go through boxes of gloves at a crime scene.

[00:29:31] He talked about how at all times he is wearing typically two pairs of gloves.

[00:29:36] And that is so he can remove the outer pair easily, discard those without getting sweat everywhere and causing more problems.

[00:29:46] So he talked through his process with gloves.

[00:29:49] And then this next question is a great one.

[00:29:52] I don't recall if I mentioned this yesterday, but one of the CSIs, I don't even recall which one, made an offhand comment that the cartridge was put in a pillbox.

[00:30:04] And other people have suggested it was put in some sort of a paper container.

[00:30:08] So the question was, well, which one was it?

[00:30:11] Who misspoke?

[00:30:12] And so the witness said, well, it was put into an evidence envelope.

[00:30:16] So they're paying attention.

[00:30:18] They're engaged.

[00:30:19] You can tell watching them.

[00:30:21] No one's dozing off.

[00:30:23] I'm not, at least I'm not seeing that.

[00:30:25] And we're hearing question after really intelligent question.

[00:30:28] There was one more.

[00:30:29] It again goes back to the integrity of the evidence.

[00:30:34] Who IDs which items have been open for testing?

[00:30:38] And he explained that any time the evidence envelope is open for any reason, whoever is doing the testing has to initial it, initial it when it's open, initial it when it is resealed.

[00:30:53] I really like that they are engaging with this issue.

[00:30:59] Integrity of evidence is a very important issue in any case.

[00:31:04] So I'm glad they really want to understand it.

[00:31:09] I agree.

[00:31:09] It's important and it's important not to take it for granted.

[00:31:14] It's important to say, how does this actually work so I can conceptualize that and make sure that what I'm seeing here is evidence that has been handled properly and can therefore be trusted?

[00:31:25] Or where can I raise questions about concerns I have around the evidence?

[00:31:28] So I think go jury.

[00:31:31] You'll love to see it.

[00:31:32] The next witness was presented by Prosecutor Nick McClellan.

[00:31:36] It was Brian Bunner.

[00:31:37] Before I get into his testimony, I want to mention that at one point during the testimony, Andy Baldwin was sitting like right next to Richard Allen.

[00:31:46] He had his arm around the back of Richard Allen's chair.

[00:31:50] I don't know if he was trying to.

[00:31:52] I noticed that too.

[00:31:53] Yeah.

[00:31:53] I felt like Richard Allen didn't seem to be doing as well today.

[00:31:59] And again, I noted and this happened a couple times.

[00:32:03] It's in my notes where he kind of kept up the weird stares.

[00:32:07] And I feel like when we're seeing Baldwin kind of get close and kind of do that, that might be like a calming mechanism for him to kind of engage with his client and make him feel like, you know, don't be worried.

[00:32:20] You know, like that kind of comfort perhaps.

[00:32:21] So Brian Bunner is the ISP officer who worked on the cell phone.

[00:32:27] And I have to admit, as soon as I realized that's who it was, I realized we're going to see the video.

[00:32:36] And I have mixed feelings about that because obviously I am very, very curious about what's on this video.

[00:32:44] Because for all of these years that we have been so interested in this case, I don't have to tell any of you this.

[00:32:50] We have been wondering what is on this video other than what we have, the small bit of it we have seen.

[00:32:56] But the other side of me is like this video shows the last moments of freedom these girls ever enjoyed in its opening seconds.

[00:33:09] So I knew it would be in some way difficult.

[00:33:13] So I was thinking through all that when Mr. Bunner started testifying.

[00:33:17] Some information about him.

[00:33:18] He's a lieutenant now.

[00:33:19] I believe he's a sergeant back in 2017.

[00:33:21] He's been a law enforcement officer for 27 years and has worked a lot in the digital forensic division, which used to be the cyber crimes division for the Indiana State Police in Indianapolis.

[00:33:32] So that is sort of his CV.

[00:33:36] And he's done a lot with that.

[00:33:39] He knows a lot about there are different.

[00:33:41] So what you have to understand is there are different paid programs that allow law enforcement to go into a phone and extract all of the data or at least as much as they can get.

[00:33:51] But before they do that, he explained they do a manual examination of the phone.

[00:33:57] In other words, they look at the phone.

[00:33:59] They notice if the screen cracked or anything of that.

[00:34:03] And they take pictures of every bit of it.

[00:34:05] And then they open it up and they open up apps and they take pictures of everything they see even before they really try to extract anything from it.

[00:34:13] And different programs, again, these paid company programs that kind of come in, they might handle different phones or different types of phones.

[00:34:21] So the one that's kind of coming up here is Cellbrite because that was one that would work with Libby's phone, which was, I believe, an iPhone 6S.

[00:34:30] Does that sound right?

[00:34:31] Yeah, I think so.

[00:34:34] And I thought it was clever of McClelland here.

[00:34:38] He mentioned, you know, like he would say stuff like, quote, I want to make sure I understand, end quote.

[00:34:42] So I think that was kind of a way of kind of relating to the jury, like asking the everyman questions that makes them feel like, oh, man, I was about to think that.

[00:34:52] You know what I mean?

[00:34:52] Like I thought that was kind of a way of connecting with them subtly.

[00:34:55] What do you think?

[00:34:56] Yeah, he's good at this.

[00:34:58] He's good at that.

[00:34:59] He's very good at that, I think.

[00:35:00] So one of the things they did was they used a program called Cellbrite, and that told them that the last activity on the phone was a video that had been taken about 2.13 p.m. on 2.13, 2017.

[00:35:18] And then they played the full video.

[00:35:22] Mm-hmm.

[00:35:22] So why don't you, do you want to describe what was on, why don't you describe the visuals, and then we'll jump back and describe what we heard.

[00:35:31] Okay.

[00:35:32] Okay.

[00:35:33] And correct me if I'm wrong, because it was so surreal to be watching.

[00:35:37] I felt like, I feel like I probably missed stuff.

[00:35:40] But so it's very obviously the bridge.

[00:35:45] They're at the end of the bridge.

[00:35:46] You can see gravel, perhaps.

[00:35:49] Yeah.

[00:35:49] Maybe grass, the start of, you know, like the start of the bridge, the wooden planks.

[00:35:58] And there's, like the phone goes up at some point, and I think you see Abby on the bridge.

[00:36:05] You see Abby on the bridge.

[00:36:07] It almost looked to me like it was just a couple of seconds after the photograph we've all seen.

[00:36:11] Right.

[00:36:12] The Snapchat picture.

[00:36:14] And you see Abby on the bridge, and then I think it goes back down, perhaps.

[00:36:18] And again, like we're, this is just our initial impression.

[00:36:21] So if we're wrong, we apologize.

[00:36:22] We're just trying to give you, it's hard to take notes because it's such a short video.

[00:36:28] And then.

[00:36:29] And then it turns upside down.

[00:36:30] It turns upside down.

[00:36:32] Abby, there's like a form running.

[00:36:35] Like she picks up the pace and like runs to the end.

[00:36:38] Yeah.

[00:36:39] And I think, now I missed bridge guy.

[00:36:43] You saw him, but it goes back up.

[00:36:46] It's upside down at one point.

[00:36:48] It's upside down.

[00:36:49] And bridge guy is there.

[00:36:52] It's what we've all seen, but it is very, very small.

[00:36:56] It's a very small part of the image.

[00:36:58] And I'll also mention it's not a landscape video.

[00:37:01] It's, what's the term for the other one?

[00:37:05] I don't know.

[00:37:06] I can't think right now.

[00:37:07] Whatever the non-landscape video is, it's like that.

[00:37:10] And the portrait and the image of bridge guy, it's just a very small part of, of the image.

[00:37:18] And so it's very interesting that they were able to go and do what they did to make that image more legible.

[00:37:27] And they talk about that later, how they did that.

[00:37:29] Now let's talk about what we heard.

[00:37:33] The video starts with, I believe it's Libby.

[00:37:37] Well, should, was there, was there, did we listen to the, just like, let me ask you a question.

[00:37:42] Did we listen to the same, because we mentioned at the top, we listened, we saw the video twice.

[00:37:46] Did we listen to the same audio both times or was it rougher on the first one and then they cleaned it up for the second?

[00:37:52] I could not tell.

[00:37:53] I thought it was the same audio.

[00:37:54] You thought it was the same exact audio?

[00:37:55] Because I felt like I had a hard time understanding anything on the first listen.

[00:37:58] On the second listen, I got a bunch of stuff that I hadn't the first time.

[00:38:03] I think anytime you, if you hear something and there's a, it's hard to hear and then you hear it the second time, I think there's something natural to make.

[00:38:09] So keep in mind some of my conclusions and what I think I heard, because I'm not going to say like, oh, this is definite.

[00:38:15] This is just my impression.

[00:38:16] This came from the second listen, not the first.

[00:38:19] In the first, I was a little bit like, ooh, I think I might have.

[00:38:21] And then like later on, I was like, oh, I think I'm pretty certain about this.

[00:38:25] Because remember, the only part of the audio that they worked on was the ending.

[00:38:30] Guys down the hill.

[00:38:31] Guys down the hill.

[00:38:32] Or girls down the hill, because I think some of the attorneys in the case have been saying girls down the hill.

[00:38:37] But let's talk about what we actually heard.

[00:38:40] The video begins with, I believe it is Libby making comments about how the trail ends here.

[00:38:49] Yes.

[00:38:50] So they're like stuck, basically.

[00:38:52] And then there is a comment about a gun.

[00:38:56] I heard the word gun.

[00:38:58] I definitely heard the word gun on the second listen.

[00:39:02] And then Abby made a comment that what I heard was freaking me out.

[00:39:09] Yes, I heard freaking me out too.

[00:39:11] And I don't remember if this is when she's running or if this is like immediately after she kind of gets closer to Libby.

[00:39:20] But there's like, and also I want to convey like a very frightened tone.

[00:39:25] Like very nervous, very frightened.

[00:39:28] Like not, like high pitched.

[00:39:31] Yes.

[00:39:32] And then you hear the sound of a bridge guy saying, guys.

[00:39:38] There is a pause.

[00:39:40] And I heard kind of a metallic noise that sounded to me like the racking of a gun.

[00:39:47] Is that what you heard?

[00:39:48] I don't really know what a racking of a gun sounds like.

[00:39:50] I'm not going to lie.

[00:39:51] Like I know from the movies.

[00:39:52] I don't know if that's accurate.

[00:39:54] I heard a metallic sound.

[00:39:55] And then down the hill, Abby says something like.

[00:40:01] Like, huh?

[00:40:02] Yeah.

[00:40:03] And then they seem to start moving and the video ends.

[00:40:08] Yeah, it was really, it was upsetting because it's, we just got through all these horrific crime scene photos.

[00:40:13] But then it's like, this is like an abduction.

[00:40:16] And we're listening to it.

[00:40:19] And just this creep, this utter creep, like walking towards them.

[00:40:22] Like just, it makes me angry and sad at the same time.

[00:40:27] It's just horrifying.

[00:40:28] It's sick.

[00:40:30] And yeah, but it's also like, it's just so bizarre to see the whole thing because it's been so like discussed and analyzed.

[00:40:36] And people have always said, oh, there's all this stuff on it.

[00:40:39] And like, you know, I mean.

[00:40:41] And it was over so quickly, 43 seconds.

[00:40:44] Some people, after they saw it the first time, said it was, you know, that just seemed like a few seconds.

[00:40:49] A lot of people were like, wait, is there more?

[00:40:51] And it's like, I mean, we always had a feeling that there wasn't much more to it because why wouldn't they use it at some point?

[00:40:59] But, you know, I think it's a miracle that they got what they did off of it in terms of being able to zoom in on Bridge Guy.

[00:41:08] So then there was some discussion about how we didn't talk about the contents of the video at that point.

[00:41:16] No.

[00:41:17] It was more about analysis of the phone.

[00:41:20] Can I just say one thing that was interesting?

[00:41:21] I know there was a motion in Lemonade where the defense didn't want the prosecution to play the audio on loop and like speculate about it or something like that.

[00:41:28] But in this case, the judge, the parties indicated that they, what was the word?

[00:41:36] We'll get to that in a second.

[00:41:37] Oh, okay.

[00:41:37] That's okay.

[00:41:38] Later.

[00:41:38] Okay.

[00:41:38] I got it.

[00:41:39] So the officer talked about how in the passage of time, there's new programs that come out that can do more phone extraction.

[00:41:48] It's like DNA.

[00:41:49] The technology is always getting better.

[00:41:51] So they're always doing more with it.

[00:41:52] So there were other occasions where they did work on the phone again later in 2017 a couple of times.

[00:42:00] In 2019, Chris Cecil, the ISP, did some work on it.

[00:42:05] 2021?

[00:42:06] Yeah.

[00:42:06] And yeah, that's not because it's like DNA.

[00:42:10] The technology improves.

[00:42:11] They want another go at it.

[00:42:13] Maybe we can get some more.

[00:42:15] We'll see.

[00:42:16] And so that's what that's all about.

[00:42:18] And that's, you know, these investigations, when they remain ongoing, you're going to see stuff like that where people kind of keep going back and back for another attempt to see if they can garner some more evidence.

[00:42:28] So then I think this is when cross-examination started.

[00:42:32] I think this is what you are remembering about stipulation.

[00:42:36] And correct me if I'm wrong.

[00:42:38] Cross-examination was handled by Jennifer Auger.

[00:42:42] And she started by talking about, oh, this phone is kept in an envelope when it went to get tested.

[00:42:47] And, oh, the only thing I see on it is a Post-it note.

[00:42:50] Is that enough for a chain of evidence?

[00:42:52] And Prosecutor McClellan asked to approach the bench.

[00:42:57] There was some sort of conferring between the two attorneys and Judge Gull.

[00:43:03] And afterwards, Judge Gull announced that the parties were stipulating to the chain of custody of the phone.

[00:43:09] Is that what you were remembering?

[00:43:10] Yes.

[00:43:11] So what does that mean?

[00:43:11] So that means with the bullet, they're trying to suggest, oh, maybe the bullet from the crime scene isn't the bullet that's being shown the jury.

[00:43:20] And so when she was talking about, oh, maybe they're not doing a good job with the integrity of this.

[00:43:28] What this means is, no, everybody is agreeing that the phone that has been tested, the phone that has these videos on it, the phone that has all of this stuff on it.

[00:43:39] But everybody now agrees that this is the proper phone.

[00:43:43] This is definitely Libby's phone.

[00:43:44] Yeah, the chain of evidence has been maintained properly.

[00:43:47] Okay.

[00:43:48] So I think that's what you were maybe misremembering a little bit.

[00:43:53] And then this is another interesting point.

[00:43:57] Jennifer Orge asked, well, what else was on the phone?

[00:44:02] And she got him to say, we've all seen this picture, of course, of Libby on the phone.

[00:44:09] Pardon me.

[00:44:10] We've all seen the image of Abby walking across the bridge that was posted on Snapchat.

[00:44:16] That picture, it was established, is not on the phone.

[00:44:21] I believe that's also a fact that has been established before.

[00:44:24] And don't worry, we will come back to that.

[00:44:27] Yes, because, well, Snapchat, you just take it on the app and then you post it.

[00:44:31] But we're getting back to that.

[00:44:32] Okay.

[00:44:34] Don't get ahead of the jurors.

[00:44:36] Sorry, jurors.

[00:44:38] There was also some talk about the GPS information associated with the video.

[00:44:43] Yeah, there was a lot of talk about that.

[00:44:45] Because apparently the GPS data that's associated with the video doesn't line up with the Monon Highbridge.

[00:44:53] And so it's explained the way GPS works.

[00:44:56] Sometimes it starts by saying, oh, a person's somewhere in this really big area.

[00:45:00] And then the longer the video runs, it gradually narrows and pinpoints to a specific.

[00:45:06] So they were talking, OJ kept on talking about longitude and latitude.

[00:45:09] But it sounds like it's a lot more of a margin of error, especially with a short video.

[00:45:12] Yes.

[00:45:13] And, you know, to be very clear, I think this would be more of a potential problem for the prosecution if they were just in the woods and you couldn't really tell exactly.

[00:45:23] Like there were no landmarks.

[00:45:24] But, I mean, they are very much on the Monon Highbridge in this.

[00:45:27] Like there's no, there's, I mean, that's the Monon Highbridge.

[00:45:32] It's a distinctive landmark.

[00:45:35] Well, let's get to the juror questions.

[00:45:38] The first one is, the first thing the juror wanted to know is what was the time on February 13th when the last image, the last picture was taken on the phone?

[00:45:51] And that was 2-13.

[00:45:52] And then they asked some highly tactical questions about the Knowledge C database, which shows they understand more about technology and we're paying more attention to the explanations than I was.

[00:46:06] And then what you need to know about the Knowledge C database is that it existed in 2017, but none of the digital forensic folks around the world knew about it at that time and only found out about it later.

[00:46:18] And, yeah, I was having a really hard time following that.

[00:46:21] I'm not going to lie.

[00:46:22] So, sorry.

[00:46:23] Apologies.

[00:46:24] Wasn't there a lot about the GPS, though?

[00:46:26] I mean, like in the cross?

[00:46:28] I mean, how did you think OJ did on that in terms of the cross examination?

[00:46:32] Oh, you want to go back to that?

[00:46:33] Go back to the juror questions?

[00:46:34] Well, yeah, just prior to wrapping it up, I feel like OJ seems to be doing a lot of the technology stuff, and I think I've appreciated her cross at other times more than this one.

[00:46:45] That's fair.

[00:46:46] I feel like it just kind of ultimately, like sometimes when she's crossing some of the tech experts, it just seems like things get confused or, you know, it's not.

[00:46:55] I don't know.

[00:46:56] I wasn't that impressed.

[00:46:58] Well, can I go back to the juror questions?

[00:46:59] Yeah, that's fine.

[00:47:00] So, one of the juror questions goes back to something Anya mentioned earlier.

[00:47:04] Jennifer Roger brought out that the picture of Abby on the bridge taken on Snapchat was not present on the phone.

[00:47:14] And so, a person, a member of the jury said, well, do Snapchat photos save to a person's phone or just to the app or the cloud?

[00:47:27] And the answer is they apparently just save to the app.

[00:47:30] So, the fact that that famous photo does not appear on the phone is not something to be suspicious about.

[00:47:37] It's just the way Snapchat works.

[00:47:38] Hell, I could have told you that.

[00:47:39] I was a prolific Snapchatter in college.

[00:47:47] There was a question about the GPS.

[00:47:50] They said, since Libby had an iPad and an iPhone, is it possible that if the iPad was somewhere else and it was logged on at the same account, could that somehow have been the explanation for why the video had a different GPS?

[00:48:07] And the answer to that was no.

[00:48:08] But I think it's an interesting question.

[00:48:10] Yeah.

[00:48:11] I think this jury is on the ball.

[00:48:13] I've been impressed with their questions and their attentiveness.

[00:48:17] I think it's a great – I mean, I think that's a good sign.

[00:48:21] You want a jury that's paying attention and is not letting moss grow.

[00:48:25] They're staying on it.

[00:48:29] The next witness is a man named Jeremy Graham Chapman.

[00:48:35] And I'm not a fan of Monty Python, but I believe – isn't Graham Chapman a member of MyPython?

[00:48:40] It's Monty Python.

[00:48:42] Are we saying MyPython?

[00:48:43] Yeah.

[00:48:44] Yes, Graham Chapman is one of the late members of Monty Python, a show I watched at a very young age.

[00:48:52] And you've probably never –

[00:48:54] It's not very funny.

[00:48:54] You've probably never heard of Jeremy Chapman, but all of us have seen his work because this is the person who produced the images of Bridge Guy that we've all seen.

[00:49:05] And this is the person who got the audio of Guys Down the Hill that we've all heard so many times.

[00:49:13] Because his role was basically as an AV technician for the Indiana State Police,

[00:49:19] his role is to make media more clear for the triers of fact.

[00:49:25] So he can make video clearer and crisper.

[00:49:29] So the data – but he says all the data is actually already present in the image.

[00:49:35] So he can't, like, create new data or pixels necessarily.

[00:49:40] It's like – it has to be there for him to exploit and bring out.

[00:49:45] Yeah, he's not creating anything.

[00:49:47] Yeah.

[00:49:47] He says his role is kind of like turning on the light to make it easier to see things.

[00:49:52] And, like, it seems like there's certain frames where you can do that and then others where that won't be possible.

[00:49:58] And you have to be able to identify which specific frames you can pull out and do something with.

[00:50:04] And so he went through the video and he found three frames that he thought would be most ideal to presenting a good image of Bridge Guy.

[00:50:15] And so with each of these frames, he basically did the same thing.

[00:50:19] He would rotate it so it was right side up.

[00:50:21] He would crop the image.

[00:50:24] He would then resize it.

[00:50:25] He did just the lights and levels and at least one case he did all of the above plus optical blurring in order to present the image.

[00:50:38] Mm-hmm.

[00:50:42] And he also enhanced the audio of the male voice saying, guys, down the hill.

[00:50:49] And at one point they played – well, Jennifer R. J. started asking some questions.

[00:50:57] Would you have any special skills in ballistics or in listening or in hearing?

[00:51:02] I thought that was kind of dumb.

[00:51:03] I'm not going to lie.

[00:51:04] And the answer –

[00:51:05] In feeling.

[00:51:08] And the answers to those were no.

[00:51:12] And then they played his enhanced audio, which you've already heard guys down the hill.

[00:51:20] And then after that was played, McClellan asked the man, what do you believe the guy on the audio said?

[00:51:30] And at that point Jennifer R. J. objected and said, before you ask him what he thinks, the man said, you should play it first for the jurors so they can decide for themselves.

[00:51:43] And Judge Gull stared at her dumbfounded and said, they just played the audio.

[00:51:50] And I think she was just like, oh gosh, I'm sorry.

[00:51:53] And she sits down and then –

[00:51:55] And honestly, I'm not going to criticize her for that because I feel like I've been doing stuff like that all day.

[00:52:00] Yes.

[00:52:00] Including in this very episode.

[00:52:02] Hey, so have you.

[00:52:03] No.

[00:52:03] You fell down the stairs at court, so don't talk.

[00:52:06] He's fine, by the way.

[00:52:08] Yeah, thanks for the concern.

[00:52:09] He's very fine, but there were some tumbles.

[00:52:13] But no, it's been a long time.

[00:52:15] But I mean, they don't have to wait in line, but they have to do a lot of work, so I imagine there's some late nights for all these people.

[00:52:22] There was no juror questions.

[00:52:25] The next witness – how do you pronounce her name?

[00:52:30] Is it Rayleigh Voorhees Garrison?

[00:52:33] Yes.

[00:52:34] I thought it was Harrison, so I apologize.

[00:52:38] But yes, Rayleigh Voorhees – I wrote down Harrison, so I could be wrong.

[00:52:44] This witness was very, very, very soft-spoken and difficult to hear.

[00:52:50] So she said her name a few times, and they kept telling her to speak up, but it was very hard to hear.

[00:52:55] She was obviously nervous and uncomfortable, and I felt terrible for her because this is not an expert subject matter witness.

[00:53:03] This is somebody who was just going for a walk with their friends and ended up being involved in something that they had no anticipation of being involved in.

[00:53:12] And before we go too far down this road, sometimes instead of us just throwing random witnesses at you,

[00:53:20] I think sometimes it's best to illustrate what the roadmap is and explain what it is the prosecution is trying to do here.

[00:53:30] Because the strategy is really becoming quite clear.

[00:53:35] Very clear.

[00:53:36] And I think, frankly, it's very effective.

[00:53:39] So we've met the girls.

[00:53:43] We know what happened to them.

[00:53:45] And now we've just seen the video where they were kidnapped by Bridge Guy.

[00:53:51] And we've seen the picture from the video that was created.

[00:53:55] So we see the video image of Bridge Guy.

[00:53:58] So now we're going to have some witnesses come forward and say, I was there that day at a certain time and place,

[00:54:06] and I saw a man who I now recognize as the man of the video.

[00:54:12] I recognize him as Bridge Guy.

[00:54:15] And so the next step will be to have witnesses come and establish.

[00:54:21] You know, Richard Allen says that all these witnesses were people he ran into himself when he was, by his own word,

[00:54:31] at the trails that day dressed as Bridge Guy was.

[00:54:35] And on the bridge.

[00:54:36] And yeah, it's...

[00:54:38] So they're like putting, they're tightening the noose, if that isn't a tasteless thing to say.

[00:54:43] I felt like things were, I felt like things were getting claustrophobic today.

[00:54:47] We'll get more into this.

[00:54:49] Because there were a lot of witnesses or, like, here's the thing.

[00:54:53] There were a lot of, like, I thought, wins that the defense got where they might be able to, you know,

[00:54:59] ding the CSI technique or, you know, maybe ding some of the witnesses.

[00:55:05] And, like, all that was valid.

[00:55:06] And, you know, those are, they should get credit for that.

[00:55:10] But, like, all I kept on thinking as somebody who's followed this case for a long time is,

[00:55:16] but he also saw that group of girls.

[00:55:18] And he put himself there.

[00:55:20] And in those clothes.

[00:55:23] And it's going to, it's like, it's almost like a, you're seeing the stack start to build up.

[00:55:28] And it's small right now.

[00:55:30] But it's starting to, you know, and I'm like, ooh, they're going to really need to be able to knock down some of those little rocks

[00:55:36] in order to get him...

[00:55:38] To a point of safety, you know?

[00:55:41] Exactly.

[00:55:41] Bridge guy kidnapped the girls.

[00:55:43] These women say, we saw bridge guy.

[00:55:45] And then Richard Allen says...

[00:55:47] I'm bridge guy, basically.

[00:55:48] I saw these girls.

[00:55:49] I was dressed as bridge guy was.

[00:55:52] Didn't he, in one of his things, say he was on the bridge and was, like, looking at fish?

[00:55:56] Yes.

[00:55:57] Which, again, is one of the witness statements.

[00:55:58] He's on the bridge.

[00:55:59] So, with that said, now that you know where we're going, let's talk, go back to Rayleigh.

[00:56:06] She was 16 years old in 2017.

[00:56:11] 2017.

[00:56:13] She went on the trail on February 13th, 2017.

[00:56:17] No school there.

[00:56:18] No school in Delphi that day.

[00:56:20] With some friends.

[00:56:22] They left home around 1130.

[00:56:24] Got there about 12.

[00:56:26] Had some fun.

[00:56:27] They walked out to the first platform on the bridge.

[00:56:29] They took some pictures.

[00:56:31] They went down to the water.

[00:56:33] Took some more pictures.

[00:56:35] They had to be home by 230 because there was a cheer practice.

[00:56:39] So...

[00:56:40] It was four girls, right?

[00:56:41] Because it was Anna Spath, Brie Wilber, and then Isabel Voorhees as well.

[00:56:45] Who was much younger than the others.

[00:56:48] So, they had to be home by 1230.

[00:56:50] So, at some point, they decided to head back.

[00:56:53] And as they do, according to Rayleigh, they see someone.

[00:56:58] They don't recognize him.

[00:57:00] He kind of glared at Rayleigh.

[00:57:05] And...

[00:57:07] Yeah.

[00:57:08] And that struck her as somewhat unusual.

[00:57:11] Yes.

[00:57:12] And sometime after that, they learned that Liberty, German, and Abigail Williams were missing.

[00:57:18] And they wondered if their disappearance had something to do with the man they saw.

[00:57:25] They gave statements and a description to law enforcement.

[00:57:30] They felt that it was a pretty moderate day weather-wise.

[00:57:33] And this man was overdressed for the weather.

[00:57:36] He had some kind of face covering.

[00:57:40] Some sort of, yeah, like running mask that was pulled up at least partly over the tip of his nose.

[00:57:44] Yeah.

[00:57:45] And, like, so they couldn't, they could only, she could make out that she believed he was Caucasian.

[00:57:51] But, you know, darker clothes, things like that.

[00:57:55] The key question was...

[00:57:57] Hands in pockets.

[00:57:58] Hands in pockets.

[00:57:59] The key question is...

[00:58:02] Later on, there was a still image released of Bridge Guy that was taken from the video.

[00:58:09] And Rayleigh says she saw that image.

[00:58:12] And when she did, she realized it was definitely the man she saw.

[00:58:17] Yeah.

[00:58:17] Yeah.

[00:58:17] She said it was an unsettling, quote, unsettling encounter.

[00:58:23] And then that came back to her.

[00:58:28] And, yeah, it was...

[00:58:31] So then Jennifer Roger did cross-examination on this witness.

[00:58:34] Why'd you talk about that?

[00:58:36] You know, she...

[00:58:39] I don't know if I cared for her demeanor with this witness.

[00:58:41] I mean, this was a teenager who was presumably at least somewhat traumatized by this experience.

[00:58:48] And at one point, you know, Roger's in, like, a very chipper tone.

[00:58:51] Like, north, south, east, west.

[00:58:52] Kind of like, I'm challenged, too, about geography.

[00:58:55] Like, kind of, like, making fun of her a bit.

[00:58:57] And it was like, listen, I think you can get away with that with an expert witness.

[00:59:00] Because, like, you're kind of bringing them down to size in front of the jury.

[00:59:03] But, like, someone like this, it's like, I don't know.

[00:59:05] It just seemed kind of unnecessary.

[00:59:08] I thought it was a bad look.

[00:59:11] And I'm not saying you need to go easy on people.

[00:59:14] But, like, you can do it in a way that I think is cleaner than what I saw with any of them today.

[00:59:21] She took her to the...

[00:59:22] Through the time...

[00:59:24] She took her pointing out fairly enough,

[00:59:28] Hey, like, if you only...

[00:59:29] If you got a running mask on, you only saw, like, you know, this much spreading her thumb.

[00:59:33] And point her finger over, like, between her forehead and just below her eyes.

[00:59:37] So she didn't really get a good look at this man's face.

[00:59:40] And she tries to highlight discrepancies in the description.

[00:59:44] Oh, you said he was, like, really tall, you know.

[00:59:49] Muscular, tall, sandy-haired, curly-haired, things like that.

[00:59:52] Here's one area where I think maybe we're getting the sense that law enforcement made a mistake.

[00:59:56] Because I feel like...

[00:59:57] Or at least aspects of law enforcement.

[00:59:59] I feel like in the years, these witnesses were kind of gone over again and again.

[01:00:04] Hey, do you remember anything?

[01:00:06] Hey, do you remember?

[01:00:07] Do you remember more details?

[01:00:08] And obviously, I don't think that's been helpful.

[01:00:11] Because it's like that just boxes them in more.

[01:00:15] When all you really need is basically kind of the clothing.

[01:00:18] The kind of, like, identifying bridge guy.

[01:00:20] And so this may be an instance where these guys, you know, because at some point you might just say,

[01:00:25] well, my initial impression based on this, like, two-second encounter is maybe he's sandy-haired or maybe he's 30.

[01:00:31] When you have a group of teenage girls who are, like, encountering a very unfriendly man just for a moment,

[01:00:38] I imagine maybe he looks a bit more muscular or big or more intimidating or tall than he actually is

[01:00:45] because maybe there's an element of fear in encountering that.

[01:00:49] I'd be curious if that would make someone look more intimidating than they actually were.

[01:00:54] I'd also wonder, you know, yeah, I mean, witness statements are, in my opinion, some of the weakest things that you can have

[01:01:03] because everyone's impressions are so different.

[01:01:04] We all see the world in such different ways, which is wonderful, but also, like, you know.

[01:01:08] Also, like, I mean, I feel like if I was just seeing someone for a second and you asked me to describe them later,

[01:01:13] I would have a very hard time with it.

[01:01:15] So I guess...

[01:01:16] Yeah, exactly.

[01:01:17] And on redirects, Stacey Diener said, you know,

[01:01:20] had you ever been asked to estimate a person's weight or height at a distance before?

[01:01:24] And, of course, the answer is no.

[01:01:28] And most of us probably couldn't do that.

[01:01:30] Well, I know I couldn't.

[01:01:30] I think some of these things, for me, would have been, like, pretty damaging.

[01:01:35] Because, you know, ultimately, when it's like, well, now you say you don't know, but back then you said, well, maybe he's muscular, maybe he's tall or whatever.

[01:01:43] And, you know, like that is inconsistent.

[01:01:46] You know, maybe it's understandably inconsistent, but it is inconsistent.

[01:01:49] But the problem again and again is, like, you can have something that would fall apart, but Richard Allen himself says he saw that group of girls,

[01:01:58] including a girl with long black hair.

[01:02:02] So he's specifying this group of girls.

[01:02:04] Yeah, so Richard Allen says, basically, he saw these girls unless you want to posit the existence of girls of exactly the same appearance who were there whenever you want us to believe Richard Allen was there.

[01:02:17] But the problem, that's where the problem is, because it's like so much of this you could say, well, listen, maybe they saw a guy who wasn't Richard Allen.

[01:02:24] Could have been a different guy.

[01:02:27] But then when he's stepping in and saying, nope, I saw him too, it's like he's boxing himself in so badly.

[01:02:33] And I think that's ultimately going to really hurt him.

[01:02:35] Yeah, I agree.

[01:02:36] Who was the next witness?

[01:02:37] The next witness was Breanne Wilber or Bree Wilber.

[01:02:42] This is a young woman who was, again, in this group of girls who was walking with Rayleigh and the others.

[01:02:49] And they were kind of, as we said, they went on this walk.

[01:02:55] They saw him.

[01:02:57] She was there to speak a lot about...

[01:03:00] She gave a bit more detail on their encounter with him.

[01:03:04] She said as they left, they saw someone basically coming in to the trails.

[01:03:10] It was a warmer day, but he, for some reason, was dressed in layers.

[01:03:14] She felt he was walking with purpose.

[01:03:20] And she mentioned, Breanne mentioned that Rayleigh was the sort of person who would say hello to everybody she passed.

[01:03:27] And because Delphi is the sort of place it is, people would kind of smile and say hi right back to her.

[01:03:34] But this guy, when Rayleigh said hi to him, he didn't answer.

[01:03:40] And as they left, they actually got, or Bree actually got a message from Libby German asking her if she was still there.

[01:03:53] And Bree replied, no, we left the Monon High Bridge itself about 10 minutes ago.

[01:04:01] Later that day, they learned that Libby and Abby were missing.

[01:04:07] And after Libby and Abby died, Bree saw a picture of Bridge Guy on television and recognized him as definitely the person they had passed on the trail.

[01:04:20] She said that the encounter with the man on the trail, quote, just kind of gave me weird vibes, end quote.

[01:04:26] And also noted that Libby, did you mention that she had messaged?

[01:04:30] Yes, I did.

[01:04:31] Yeah, you did.

[01:04:31] Okay.

[01:04:32] So, yeah, that's tragic because it's like, I don't know, maybe if they're in a larger group, you know, like that's, it's just a, it's just a horrifying thing.

[01:04:39] That's why I see like, Bree knew this family.

[01:04:42] Like she was friends with Kelsey, she knew Libby, like this isn't just some like expert witness who's coming in and doing a job.

[01:04:52] This is someone who is part of the tragedy.

[01:04:54] All of these girls are.

[01:04:56] Also, I must be running through all their minds that like if maybe they had been in the wrong place, maybe they would have fallen prey to Bridge Guy.

[01:05:03] So it's, it's a scary situation.

[01:05:06] And, you know, yeah.

[01:05:09] Across This Time was done by Andy Baldwin.

[01:05:12] Do you want to talk about it?

[01:05:13] Yeah, he starts off by lecturing her about saying yes more.

[01:05:17] So that was interesting.

[01:05:20] And, and then also talked about how she said that she was shorter than Bridge Guy and that he stood as high as her upper, I'm sorry, she stood as high as his upper forearm.

[01:05:32] Keeps on repeating this.

[01:05:34] And the thing he kept on repeating rather was like pointing at the image of Bridge Guy.

[01:05:39] This is the guy who creeped you out.

[01:05:40] But he talked about how Dave Vito of the Indiana State Police and the U.S. Marshals interviewed Bree later on.

[01:05:51] And yeah, kind of went on from there.

[01:05:53] They were definitely focusing a lot on the discrepancy of, you know, some of the witness side.

[01:06:02] And it seems like these girls thought the man was bigger and younger than Richard Allen would appear to be.

[01:06:08] And one thing that was interesting, though, I forgot this.

[01:06:10] I wanted to mention this with Riley.

[01:06:12] When she gave a response, I noticed one of the female jurors seemed like she gave something where she was like, listen, I gave as much as I could based on a very momentary impression when I was 16.

[01:06:23] But I'm convinced that I saw the man on the bridge.

[01:06:27] Maybe maybe some of my details are off or I was, you know, but like I know I saw that guy specifically.

[01:06:35] And Bree Wilber said something to the same effect, like.

[01:06:38] It's that guy on the bridge.

[01:06:41] And I thought I saw one of the jurors in the in the Riley portion of this sort of nodding along a little bit, kind of like that seems reasonable.

[01:06:50] Maybe maybe she was just nodding her head randomly.

[01:06:53] I'm just I'm just saying I it seemed to be like people they weren't these these young ladies weren't like defensive about it.

[01:07:02] Like they weren't like, no, I was right.

[01:07:03] Or like, how dare you question?

[01:07:04] It was more of like, listen, like we we've never done this before.

[01:07:09] Our we're faulty, but we are we're quite certain that at the very least we saw the man fitting this description, even if we thought he was a bit taller or younger.

[01:07:18] We saw this general guy.

[01:07:20] Yes.

[01:07:20] And Stacey Diener's redirect was very brief and very effective in my mind.

[01:07:27] So Andy Baldwin had just highlighted all of the discrepancies in the descriptions.

[01:07:32] And so Stacey Diener showed her a picture of bridge guy and said, did anyone else you see look like this?

[01:07:41] And of course, the answer was no.

[01:07:43] So the next witness is, again, someone whose name we've heard a lot over the years.

[01:07:50] This is Betsy Blair.

[01:07:53] Yeah.

[01:07:54] She said that she spent a lot of time using the Monon High Bridge Trail in 2016 and 2017.

[01:08:02] She had a very regular route.

[01:08:04] She would walk or she would call it a loop.

[01:08:07] She would typically do three of these loops.

[01:08:12] On this particular day, she did two and took, I guess, a bathroom break at the library and then came back and did the third loop.

[01:08:23] And maybe some of you will sympathize for lack of a better word with this.

[01:08:28] She used a Fitbit.

[01:08:29] I used to use a Fitbit.

[01:08:31] And one great thing about a Fitbit is it counts your steps, which is very convenient if you want to try to be in good shape.

[01:08:37] But it's extra convenient here because if we know she always took the exact route and we know when she was walking, the exact moment she was walking and taking these steps thanks to the Fitbit, it really helps pinpoint exact times that certain things happened.

[01:08:55] Yes.

[01:08:55] Yes.

[01:08:56] And, of course, you know, the first two loops seemingly go on without any incident.

[01:09:04] Yeah.

[01:09:04] And then she leaves.

[01:09:05] She leaves.

[01:09:06] Then she comes back for the third loop.

[01:09:08] What happens on the third loop?

[01:09:10] On the third loop, when she reaches the Monon High Bridge, she's up at what she called the Orange Barricade that at that time sort of separated this rickety old bridge from, you know, from rock solid land, this kind of precipice.

[01:09:24] She looks out and there is a man standing on the bridge on a platform to the right on one of the right side platforms.

[01:09:33] And she said that she got the impression that he was expecting somebody, but that he looked at her and that she kind of got the feeling, oh, it's not me.

[01:09:50] He must be like almost like he must be waiting for somebody.

[01:09:52] Right.

[01:09:53] And she turned around and left.

[01:09:55] And as she is walking back to where she parked, she passes Abby and Libby.

[01:10:04] They are walking along and chatting and heading towards the Monon High Bridge where, of course, Bridge Guy is there.

[01:10:14] And she said that Bridge Guy, when she saw him, was about 50 feet away.

[01:10:18] So she learns later that the girls were missing.

[01:10:26] She calls the sheriff, reported what she saw.

[01:10:30] She learned the next day that the girls were deceased.

[01:10:33] She sees a picture of Bridge Guy and she recognized him as being definitely the man she saw on the bridge just before Abby and Libby went to the bridge.

[01:10:45] She gave, as we said, a full statement to law enforcement.

[01:10:49] The Fitbit data let law enforcement know exactly when she was there.

[01:10:54] She says she was not able to see his face super clearly as he was about 50 feet away.

[01:10:59] He was on one of the platforms and just kind of looked at her.

[01:11:05] It's like he was almost looking off.

[01:11:07] She said upstream and then turned to her.

[01:11:10] Yes.

[01:11:11] So Cross?

[01:11:13] Well, before Cross, there is a rather dramatic.

[01:11:17] Dramatic.

[01:11:18] A rather dramatic moment.

[01:11:20] This was so dramatic.

[01:11:22] Yes.

[01:11:23] Stacey Diener asked some sort of question about law enforcement.

[01:11:29] I didn't get the exact wording of it, did you?

[01:11:31] No.

[01:11:32] It was like something about like when did you realize something would be unusual.

[01:11:35] I don't really remember.

[01:11:36] Whatever the answer, something about law enforcement and Betsy Blair's answer was something to the effect of they asked me to do a sketch.

[01:11:45] And then there was silence.

[01:11:47] And the reason for this is because just last week we had a hearing where it was determined that against the defense's wishes, the sketches would not be mentioned.

[01:11:59] But now Betsy Blair has potentially opened the door to a discussion of the sketches since she mentioned them in her examination.

[01:12:09] How does that work?

[01:12:10] Just for people who are not familiar.

[01:12:11] I'm sure people have heard like open the door in courtroom dramas.

[01:12:15] But practically, what does this mean?

[01:12:17] It means typically if you raise something in direct examination, it's subject to cross-examination.

[01:12:24] So you can't just be like, well, actually, no sketches allowed.

[01:12:29] Sorry about that.

[01:12:29] You have to be like, well, now we need to talk about it.

[01:12:31] And now I have a couple of follow-ups.

[01:12:33] Does this mean that the sketches will be actually introduced into the case where the jury will be shown them?

[01:12:38] Well, I'll tell you, I'll jump ahead briefly.

[01:12:42] At the very end of the day after the jurors left, Andy Baldwin said, we're going to have to have a talk and figure out what to do about this fact that Betsy Blair seemingly opened the door on the sketches.

[01:12:59] And so that's where things stand now.

[01:13:02] I am sure the defense will argue, yes, now the sketches definitely have to be in because of this.

[01:13:08] And the prosecution will argue otherwise.

[01:13:11] And then Judge Goll will make her decision.

[01:13:13] Yeah.

[01:13:13] But the door opened for sure.

[01:13:15] Yeah.

[01:13:16] And it actually opened twice because she brought back up the sketches again shortly thereafter, I felt.

[01:13:21] Yeah.

[01:13:23] So talk about the cross-examination by Andrew Baldwin.

[01:13:26] Much more friendly than the previous witnesses ones.

[01:13:29] Obviously, they like Betsy because she is the source of the younger man sketch.

[01:13:35] The older man sketch in many people's view, yours truly included, looks more like Richard Allen than the younger guy sketch, which doesn't resemble him as closely.

[01:13:45] Others have pointed out that the sketches in some ways are similar, have similar features if you kind of don't pay attention to some of the more like, you know, like beard and stuff like that, which I also understand.

[01:13:56] But I think for the defense's purpose, they love the younger guy sketch because it just doesn't really look like Allen.

[01:14:02] And again, that's my opinion, but that's other people's opinions, too, I think.

[01:14:07] And so he's very friendly.

[01:14:10] He talks about, you know.

[01:14:14] Like she at one point, like one thing that struck me was, I guess, based on and again, like here I go based on some of the defense filings, I had the impression that Betsy Blair was like super locked into her.

[01:14:27] Like it has to be the younger guy because the way the defense would always refer to her and her sketch.

[01:14:32] It was like she's like coming out of the woodwork to say this is I saw the guy and he's a young guy and I'll die on this hill.

[01:14:41] And that's not the Betsy Blair we saw on the stand today.

[01:14:45] She said, quote, that it was, quote, not super clear because he was about 50 feet away.

[01:14:51] She said, you know, like it just didn't seem like it was kind of what we'd been set.

[01:15:00] I mean, I'd been set up to think like this was going to be a really, you know, positive thing for the defense in that sense.

[01:15:08] I mean, am I like did you kind of have that impression or was that just me?

[01:15:12] Maybe a little bit.

[01:15:14] But she seemed very much ambivalent about it.

[01:15:17] She said, like, when I was asked how old he was, you know, she she thought it was young.

[01:15:23] He, you know, Baldwin kept on.

[01:15:24] You said he looked young.

[01:15:25] You said he was more boyish.

[01:15:27] And and she kind of just came back with like, quote, it was a moment like her initial impression was younger.

[01:15:34] But is she willing to like absolutely say it must be.

[01:15:39] That person that I described in the sketch, it really sounds like no.

[01:15:43] She talked about average height.

[01:15:45] The guy she saw thought was average height.

[01:15:48] But she just didn't seem that like she was kind of like I may have gotten it wrong, basically.

[01:15:51] And she said, yeah, I know.

[01:15:53] I said he had poofy hair.

[01:15:54] But, you know, I'm confident the man I saw is the man in the picture.

[01:16:01] And in fact, on redirect by Stacey Diener, she emphasized that I knew when I saw the photo that was the man I saw on the bridge.

[01:16:09] Yeah.

[01:16:10] Yeah.

[01:16:11] And then she said, oh, these witnesses again and again are basically like offering testimony, offering issues that offering sightings that are problematic in some way.

[01:16:19] But they all boil down to I saw that guy on the bridge.

[01:16:22] And then the recross by Baldwin, he said, well, since 2017, you have not changed your mind about the description of the man you saw.

[01:16:31] And he was asking that to try to get her to establish that, oh, there's all these discrepancies in the description.

[01:16:37] And her response was, well, I consistently said he was the man I saw on the bridge.

[01:16:45] I wrote down damn after that.

[01:16:47] Yeah, she's a strong witness.

[01:16:50] I know they want to bring her back to talk about the car.

[01:16:54] Yeah.

[01:16:54] Baldwin mentioned that we'll have her back for the cars, basically.

[01:16:57] Because when she was driving to the library for a quick bathroom break, she passes by the CPS.

[01:17:03] And she sees a car there that apparently does not fit the description of Allen's car.

[01:17:10] So here's my thinking.

[01:17:11] Can I just give a little thought on the sketches and kind of this upshot?

[01:17:14] The sketches coming back in is better for the defense because they can play around with that and say, like, does this really look like Richard Allen?

[01:17:21] And it's a visual.

[01:17:22] People like visuals, I feel.

[01:17:23] So all that would be good for them.

[01:17:25] But I feel like it would have been a hell of a lot better if they had a witness who was basically going to the mat for that sketch and basically saying, like, that sketch is it.

[01:17:36] Get out of here.

[01:17:37] That's all.

[01:17:38] You know, but instead we have, like, the source of the sketch basically being like, well, you know.

[01:17:45] I tried my best after a moment looking at a guy for a second, you know, 50 feet away from me and then turning around.

[01:17:52] But I know it's the guy on the bridge.

[01:17:54] And this is what I said.

[01:17:55] I think I said something like this a while ago.

[01:17:57] Like, if all of the sketch witnesses are like, well, I don't know if it's that guy on the bridge, but I saw this guy.

[01:18:04] Then I said the prosecution's in deep trouble because, like, you know, then what the heck are we supposed to like?

[01:18:10] You know, like it then it's all over the place.

[01:18:12] I mean, forget about it.

[01:18:13] But I said that at the time, like, if everyone just says they saw the bridge guy and they're able to say, like, that guy in the image is the guy, then it's less of an issue.

[01:18:24] So it seems like that kind of fell into place.

[01:18:26] It's definitely a setback, I'd say, for the prosecution to have the sketches be in play because it just has the potential as far as they're concerned to confuse matters.

[01:18:35] But, like, I mean, this witness was pretty.

[01:18:39] This witness that I thought was going to be potentially a big boon for the defense seemed to be more of a bust for the defense.

[01:18:47] I don't think the sketches would really make much of a difference at this point.

[01:18:55] Because the point of the sketches would be, oh, look, this drawing, there's things about it that don't match Richard Allen.

[01:19:03] And we just have these witnesses on and they talked about the descriptions they gave that led to the drawings.

[01:19:10] And so those discrepancies in the descriptions have already been aired out to the jury.

[01:19:18] One, there were some juror questions.

[01:19:20] Yeah, there were some juror questions.

[01:19:21] Some good ones.

[01:19:22] One asked, how far away were you?

[01:19:25] And she had said that already, but clarifying 50 feet away.

[01:19:28] They said, how could you tell that he was, like, waiting for something?

[01:19:33] And she just kind of said, like, just the way he looked at her and it was, like, kind of, just more of a vibe than anything.

[01:19:40] Just, like, he was turning away and then he kind of looked directly at her and was staring.

[01:19:44] And then there was a very interesting question.

[01:19:47] A juror said, well, you said the man you saw had poofy hair.

[01:19:52] Is it possible that what you thought was his hair was actually some kind of a hat?

[01:19:58] And she said, yeah, that is possible.

[01:20:00] And that's interesting because this is a juror who is looking for reasons to believe that this witness saw Bridge Guy.

[01:20:09] Mm-hmm.

[01:20:10] I thought that question's got to scare the defense.

[01:20:14] Also, that question shows Bessie Blair saying, like, listen, I did my best.

[01:20:18] Like, all these witnesses, we did our best.

[01:20:20] We're humans.

[01:20:21] We saw him for a second.

[01:20:23] But we saw Bridge Guy.

[01:20:25] Maybe we don't know exactly what he looked like.

[01:20:27] And they're willing to back down off of their particular descriptions.

[01:20:32] But they're not willing to back down on that image on the bridge that was taken from Libby's phone.

[01:20:37] And that is a problem for this defense team.

[01:20:40] It is indeed.

[01:20:42] And sort of, like, having Betsy Blair as their favorite and sort of like, oh, hi, Betsy.

[01:20:46] Like, that's how he starts it with her, whereas he's kind of, I felt like the defense was more harsh to the other witnesses that didn't really line up with what they wanted.

[01:20:54] It's, I don't, I don't know if you can throw the sketches in as a nice little boost for them.

[01:20:59] I don't know if it matters now.

[01:21:01] I think you needed to have the witness who was willing to really go back up that sketch for the jurors to kind of start having some doubt seep in on those lines.

[01:21:12] And then the judge said, quote, we have one more witness for the day, just so you know where we're at.

[01:21:20] End quote.

[01:21:21] She was, she's very, like, I think she tries to be, like, very nice to the jurors.

[01:21:25] She's always smiling at them and kind of like, you know.

[01:21:28] Who was that final witness on you?

[01:21:30] It was a familiar face, Steve Mullen.

[01:21:33] He is the former Delphi police chief who is now the investigator for the Carroll County Prosecutor's Office.

[01:21:39] He's McClellan's investigator.

[01:21:41] And this was funny.

[01:21:42] McClellan made a mistake when he was asking his first question with Mullen, talking about how he was doing something on the 13th.

[01:21:48] And Mullen immediately jumped in.

[01:21:50] It was, like, February 14th because February 13th, you know, no one knew a crime had occurred.

[01:21:57] So they were talking about the Hoosier Harvest Store footage.

[01:22:01] And, of course, this is footage from the Hoosier Harvest Store, which faces, I believe, County Road 300 North.

[01:22:11] Right?

[01:22:12] Right.

[01:22:12] Yeah.

[01:22:14] And at 7 p.m. on February 14th, Mullen went to get it.

[01:22:20] He noted that, like, it really could only show the daytime movements.

[01:22:24] I wonder if the defense will have any fun with that.

[01:22:26] Well, he went to view it.

[01:22:28] Yeah.

[01:22:28] And then later the FBI actually.

[01:22:30] Yeah, the FBI's response team got it.

[01:22:32] But he watched it.

[01:22:32] I'm Mullen and I'm correcting you.

[01:22:34] Wow.

[01:22:34] Thank you.

[01:22:35] You're the Mullen of the group.

[01:22:37] And so basically he studied all of this footage and he identified on the footage Betsy Blair's vehicle, Kelsey's vehicle, and Sarah Carbaugh's vehicle.

[01:22:49] Sarah Carbaugh is the witness who said she saw a muddy and bloody man.

[01:22:54] And he indicated that basically there was a picture of Betsy Blair driving towards the Mears parking lot.

[01:23:10] So eastbound 12.02.

[01:23:12] So she's driving to the Monon High Bridge Trail at 12.02.

[01:23:17] She's leaving at 1.15 for her bathroom break.

[01:23:21] She is coming back at 1.46 p.m.

[01:23:26] At 1.49 p.m., Kelsey is driving there to drop off the girls.

[01:23:33] And at 2.18 p.m., Betsy Blair is leaving.

[01:23:36] And at 3.56 p.m., Sarah Carbaugh is there.

[01:23:40] So it's important to establish that these witnesses are where they say they are and they're not just inserting themselves into the story in order to, you know, whatever.

[01:23:49] Like this is, you know, their car movements match the, and, you know, this led to some interesting moments on Cross, I guess.

[01:24:00] What happened?

[01:24:01] Well, you know, they're like, why do you think what you're seeing is Betsy Blair's car?

[01:24:06] And Mullen, and Baldwin was one handling it.

[01:24:09] Mullen says the description of the vehicle and, you know, the drivers identified their cars.

[01:24:19] And I thought Baldwin kind of made an odd deal of like, oh, well, the, you know, oh, so it wasn't just you saying that.

[01:24:26] The ladies, you know, also identified their cars.

[01:24:29] That kind of makes me wonder if at some point there's going to be a question about whether or not a particular vehicle is Richard Allen.

[01:24:35] I want to know how good this Hoosier Harvest Store video is because there's been a lot about like, okay, there's been like discrepancies as far as eyewitness sightings with the cars that with a car that was parked at the old CPS filming.

[01:24:48] But if it's good video and it looks like Allen's car, then that's really bad.

[01:24:54] If it's really vague and blurry, then I think it's less important.

[01:24:59] But, yeah, and then as you said, Baldwin ended it, you know, after the jury left saying, you know, the door got open on the sketches.

[01:25:05] It definitely did.

[01:25:06] So I imagine we'll be hearing more about that very soon, possibly tomorrow.

[01:25:10] And that's it.

[01:25:12] Thanks so much for listening.

[01:25:15] And hopefully we'll talk to you again tomorrow.

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[01:26:39] Thanks so much for sticking around to the end of this Murder Sheet episode.

[01:26:42] Just as a quick post-roll ad, we wanted to tell you again about our friend Jason Blair's wonderful Silver Linings Handbook.

[01:26:50] This show is phenomenal.

[01:26:53] Whether you are interested in true crime, the criminal justice system, law, mental health, stories of marginalized people, overcoming tragedy, well-being.

[01:27:03] Like, he does it all.

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[01:27:05] He has so many different conversations with interesting people, people whose loved ones have gone missing, other podcasters in the true crime space, just interesting people with interesting life experiences.

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[01:27:52] Yes.

[01:27:52] He's been a really good friend to us.

[01:27:55] And so it's fun to be able to hit a button on my phone and get a little dose of Jason talking to people whenever I want.

[01:28:02] But it's a really terrific show.

[01:28:05] We really recommend it highly.

[01:28:06] Yeah, I think our audience will like it.

[01:28:08] And you've already met Jason if you listen consistently to our show.

[01:28:11] He's been on our show a couple times.

[01:28:12] We've been on his show.

[01:28:14] He's a terrific guest.

[01:28:15] I say this in one of our ads about him, but I literally always – I'm like, oh, yeah, I remember when Jason said this.

[01:28:20] That really resonated.

[01:28:21] Like, I do quote him in conversations sometimes because he really has a good grasp of different complicated issues.

[01:28:27] She quotes him to me all the time.

[01:28:28] I do – I'm like, I remember when Jason said this.

[01:28:30] That was so right.

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[01:28:36] Give it a try.

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[01:28:38] And again, he does a range of different topics, but they all kind of have this similar theme of compassion, of overcoming suffering, of dealing with suffering, of mental health, wellness, things like that.

[01:28:48] There's kind of a common through line of compassion and empathy there that I think we find very nice, and we work on a lot of stories that can be very tough, and we try to bring compassion and empathy to it.

[01:29:00] But this is something that almost can be like if you're kind of feeling a little burned out by true crime.

[01:29:04] I think this is kind of the life-affirming stuff that can be nice to listen to in a podcast.

[01:29:11] It's compassionate.

[01:29:12] It's affirming.

[01:29:13] But I also want to emphasize it's smart.

[01:29:17] People – Jason is a very intelligent, articulate person.

[01:29:22] This is a smart show, but it's an accessible show.

[01:29:25] I think you'll all really enjoy it.

[01:29:28] Yeah, and he's got a great community that he's building.

[01:29:30] So we're really excited to be a part of that.

[01:29:31] We're fans of the show.

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[01:29:36] Download some episodes.

[01:29:37] Listen.

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