The Delphi Murders: Richard Allen On Trial: Day One: Opening Statements and More

[00:00:01] [SPEAKER_03]: Content Warning, this episode contains discussion of the murder of two girls.

[00:00:08] [SPEAKER_03]: So I guess we just experienced the first day of the Delphi Murders trial. We've been waiting for this day in some ways for a very long time. And today we experienced it. I guess we kind of experienced it over the course of several days, right?

[00:00:25] [SPEAKER_03]: But, you know, this is the start of it all. And we saw opening statements from the parties and a few witness testimonies.

[00:00:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Richard Allen Ones, including some very significant ones, family members.

[00:00:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Richard Allen Ones, Absolutely.

[00:00:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Richard Allen Ones, They're the ones who care more about this case than any of the rest of us because it is their loved ones.

[00:00:44] [SPEAKER_03]: Richard Allen Ones, Absolutely.

[00:00:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Richard Allen Ones, And we have not been able to hear from them for a long time because of this gag order.

[00:00:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Richard Allen Ones, Right.

[00:00:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Richard Allen Ones, So it was nice to give them a chance to speak and hear their voices today. And we're going to talk about that and some other stuff too.

[00:01:01] [SPEAKER_03]: Richard Allen Ones, Absolutely.

[00:01:03] [SPEAKER_03]: My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist.

[00:01:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Richard Allen Ones, And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

[00:01:08] [SPEAKER_03]: Richard Allen Ones, And this is The Murder Sheet.

[00:01:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Richard Allen Ones, We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases. We're The Murder Sheet.

[00:01:19] [SPEAKER_03]: Richard Allen Ones, And this is The Delphi Murders.

[00:01:21] [SPEAKER_03]: Richard Allen Ones, And this is The Murder Sheet.

[00:01:24] [SPEAKER_03]: Richard Allen Ones, Ones, Day One, Opening Statements, And More.

[00:02:14] [SPEAKER_01]: So I don't want us to make a habit of this Anya.

[00:02:19] [SPEAKER_01]: I think for the second episode in a row we're going to start by complaining about public access.

[00:02:25] [SPEAKER_03]: Somebody's gotta, somebody's gotta say something.

[00:02:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Richard Allen Ones, So last night there started being reports about people camping out to attend the first day of trial as early as 8 p.m.

[00:02:43] [SPEAKER_01]: And we wanted to bring the information about this trial to you.

[00:02:47] [SPEAKER_01]: So we ended up getting there around, I believe, 11 p.m. last night.

[00:02:52] [SPEAKER_00]: Richard Allen Ones, We did.

[00:02:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Richard Allen Ones, A full nine hours before the court opened.

[00:02:55] [SPEAKER_01]: And we were like 12th in line, I think.

[00:02:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:02:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Richard Allen Ones, 12th in line.

[00:02:59] [SPEAKER_01]: And it was a night where I think it went below freezing and it was very, very unpleasant.

[00:03:03] [SPEAKER_03]: Richard Allen Ones, It was very cold out.

[00:03:04] [SPEAKER_01]: And it makes me reflect on the fact that the reason Judge Gull indicated that she wanted the trial to be in Carroll County was because she thought it was important for people from Carroll County to attend.

[00:03:19] [SPEAKER_01]: And she thought it was important for family members to attend.

[00:03:23] [SPEAKER_01]: But the way this is set up, the family members are not getting enough seats.

[00:03:27] [SPEAKER_01]: There are family members of the victims who have literally been to every single pre-trial hearing who aren't being given seats for this.

[00:03:36] [SPEAKER_01]: And if the only way to get access is to give up sleep and stand out in the freezing cold for a chance of getting one of the handful of seats that are available, that's not really a meaningful way to get access.

[00:03:53] [SPEAKER_01]: And what if you are an older person like me or what if you have some sort of health issue or you're in a wheelchair or something like that, then even the option of standing out in line all night in the freezing cold, that's not available to you.

[00:04:12] [SPEAKER_01]: So this just underscores I think this is an embarrassment.

[00:04:16] [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's an embarrassment and it is very wrong.

[00:04:20] [SPEAKER_01]: There are so many easy things that could have been done that could have opened this up to a lot more people a lot more easily.

[00:04:30] [SPEAKER_01]: One thing that comes to mind just off the top of my head is they could have said maybe the courtroom is just for family, but then maybe have some kind of a video or audio feed closed circuit that goes to another room with plenty of seating to be made available for media and members of the public.

[00:04:46] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, like an auditorium somewhere.

[00:04:48] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I feel like that could have been rigged up and is any solution perfect?

[00:04:53] [SPEAKER_03]: No.

[00:04:53] [SPEAKER_03]: Would almost anything be better than what we're experiencing?

[00:04:57] [SPEAKER_03]: Yes.

[00:04:59] [SPEAKER_01]: And while we're on the topic, let's jump ahead briefly.

[00:05:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Anya, tell us what we learned today about breaks.

[00:05:11] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, yeah, we learned something.

[00:05:13] [SPEAKER_03]: So it turns out that if you get up, well, I mean, listen, this is just what we experience.

[00:05:22] [SPEAKER_03]: There's often a lot of conflicting information going on that is being given to people here.

[00:05:26] [SPEAKER_03]: So I guess keep that in mind.

[00:05:28] [SPEAKER_03]: So what our understanding was when you get up during a break, like if you have to go to the restroom or go for a walk or whatnot, unlike all the pretrial hearings, you then can't get back in the room.

[00:05:41] [SPEAKER_03]: And at one point, you know, we were sort of blocked and it was almost implied that they were going to then open it up to all the people who hadn't made it in that morning.

[00:05:51] [SPEAKER_03]: Even though our stuff and our bags and all our stuff is like in the room.

[00:05:55] [SPEAKER_03]: So that was bizarre.

[00:05:56] [SPEAKER_03]: It got worse at lunch.

[00:05:58] [SPEAKER_03]: At lunch, it was made clear.

[00:06:00] [SPEAKER_03]: It actually was not made clear.

[00:06:01] [SPEAKER_03]: At lunch, everyone was dismissed.

[00:06:04] [SPEAKER_03]: Then one of the deputies started saying, everyone get your stuff out of the courtroom.

[00:06:08] [SPEAKER_03]: It's being cleared.

[00:06:09] [SPEAKER_03]: You need to get your stuff out and then get back in line.

[00:06:12] [SPEAKER_03]: So we had to wait in line to get into the courthouse.

[00:06:16] [SPEAKER_03]: And then, you know, you think, OK, we're these are our seats for the day.

[00:06:20] [SPEAKER_03]: No, at noon, it all starts anew.

[00:06:24] [SPEAKER_03]: So here are your options.

[00:06:25] [SPEAKER_03]: You go out for lunch like a lot of people needed to do because there are human beings who need to eat and consume nutrients in order to live and hydrate.

[00:06:36] [SPEAKER_03]: Or you could be nuts like we are and get back in line, which is what we did.

[00:06:42] [SPEAKER_01]: And we just barely got back in.

[00:06:44] [SPEAKER_03]: We did not eat or drink anything.

[00:06:48] [SPEAKER_03]: And actually, a nice, nice lady gave you a water bottle.

[00:06:52] [SPEAKER_03]: So thank you to her.

[00:06:53] [SPEAKER_03]: And but but other than that, you know, we we barely got in.

[00:06:58] [SPEAKER_03]: So we barely got into the afternoon session.

[00:07:01] [SPEAKER_03]: So let me just be clear.

[00:07:02] [SPEAKER_03]: Obviously, it would be my preference that the people who come in first have the seats for the whole day.

[00:07:08] [SPEAKER_03]: That being said, if you're going to open it up anew, maybe you want to get the most people in and you feel like that's the fairest way.

[00:07:14] [SPEAKER_03]: I just I think it's I think it's stupid.

[00:07:16] [SPEAKER_03]: But whatever.

[00:07:16] [SPEAKER_03]: Let's just say we're doing that.

[00:07:18] [SPEAKER_03]: This is where it got even more chaotic.

[00:07:21] [SPEAKER_03]: So we line up.

[00:07:22] [SPEAKER_03]: We're in this line.

[00:07:23] [SPEAKER_03]: Everyone's tense.

[00:07:24] [SPEAKER_03]: Everyone's like looking daggers at each other.

[00:07:26] [SPEAKER_03]: Like, don't you dare move or don't you dare run for the thing?

[00:07:29] [SPEAKER_03]: Like, it's like everyone's like it's like a standoff.

[00:07:31] [SPEAKER_03]: You know what I mean?

[00:07:32] [SPEAKER_03]: It's like something out of a Sergio Leone film.

[00:07:35] [SPEAKER_03]: Like we're all like, you know, like.

[00:07:38] [SPEAKER_03]: Screeching falcons in the background.

[00:07:39] [SPEAKER_03]: And then you have this deputy come out.

[00:07:43] [SPEAKER_03]: And let me just be very clear.

[00:07:44] [SPEAKER_03]: Let me just be so clear about something.

[00:07:46] [SPEAKER_03]: A lot of these deputies are folks from different counties.

[00:07:49] [SPEAKER_03]: They don't know what's going on.

[00:07:51] [SPEAKER_03]: And it's not their fault.

[00:07:52] [SPEAKER_03]: They're there to keep everyone safe and to do what they're told.

[00:07:56] [SPEAKER_03]: And, you know, they're they're they're trying their best.

[00:07:59] [SPEAKER_03]: They're just not given a lot to work with here because they're basically being told to do things and convey conflicting messages to everyone.

[00:08:06] [SPEAKER_03]: It's not their fault.

[00:08:07] [SPEAKER_03]: No one should be getting mad at them or frustrated with them.

[00:08:10] [SPEAKER_03]: They're just in a bad situation along with everyone else.

[00:08:12] [SPEAKER_03]: So I just want to make that very clear.

[00:08:14] [SPEAKER_03]: So they come up and they say, actually, we need to clear the third floor because we need to remove Richard Allen.

[00:08:19] [SPEAKER_03]: OK, well, that that seems fair.

[00:08:20] [SPEAKER_03]: So then after a lot of negotiating, this line travels backwards downstairs.

[00:08:25] [SPEAKER_03]: But of course, you know, there's some people kind of like edging off to the side like no one really knows.

[00:08:29] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, like maybe people are just going to run for it.

[00:08:31] [SPEAKER_03]: Eventually, somehow this lasts and we make it back upstairs in one piece as a line.

[00:08:37] [SPEAKER_03]: And you and I barely got in.

[00:08:39] [SPEAKER_03]: A lot of people behind us did not get in.

[00:08:43] [SPEAKER_03]: And as we were waiting to finally get in, who walks past us?

[00:08:46] [SPEAKER_03]: Richard Allen.

[00:08:48] [SPEAKER_03]: So the rule about like have make moving him around without us on the floor obviously was not like consistently conveyed to everyone.

[00:08:57] [SPEAKER_03]: So this is a situation where it's just like, here's what I'm going to suggest.

[00:09:01] [SPEAKER_03]: And no one's going to listen to me.

[00:09:03] [SPEAKER_03]: Why would you?

[00:09:04] [SPEAKER_03]: But I mean, I'm not even listening.

[00:09:05] [SPEAKER_03]: You're not even listening.

[00:09:06] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm just rambling.

[00:09:06] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm sure the people, the listeners aren't listening.

[00:09:08] [SPEAKER_03]: But here's here's the thought.

[00:09:10] [SPEAKER_03]: Have if you want to have an afternoon session, have a like a little spot on the second floor, second floor where people line up in order to get in line for that.

[00:09:18] [SPEAKER_03]: And then those people are ushered up to the seats afterwards.

[00:09:21] [SPEAKER_03]: That seems because I'm going to tell you this.

[00:09:23] [SPEAKER_03]: Things got heated in this line.

[00:09:25] [SPEAKER_03]: There will not be order in the court if you have people fighting physically, verbally, loudly, whatever you want over seats.

[00:09:35] [SPEAKER_03]: People are tired.

[00:09:37] [SPEAKER_03]: People are cranky.

[00:09:38] [SPEAKER_03]: People really want to get in.

[00:09:39] [SPEAKER_03]: And this is just adding fuel to a fire.

[00:09:43] [SPEAKER_03]: And I would really hope they would not want that.

[00:09:46] [SPEAKER_01]: And I also think it's important for Anya to be very open and honest with you.

[00:09:50] [SPEAKER_01]: The rules that Judge Gull and her Allen County outfit have created around public access for this trial seem to change on an almost daily basis.

[00:10:01] [SPEAKER_01]: And right now we're at a point that if you want to cover this trial, you need to get by on two hours sleep.

[00:10:11] [SPEAKER_01]: You have to be sure not to eat or drink anything during the day because if you go to the bathroom, you're going to lose your seat.

[00:10:17] [SPEAKER_01]: And you have to completely skip lunch.

[00:10:20] [SPEAKER_01]: And this is what Anya and I have been doing.

[00:10:22] [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's having an impact on our health.

[00:10:25] [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm not sure it's sustainable.

[00:10:27] [SPEAKER_03]: It's not.

[00:10:28] [SPEAKER_01]: We think, though, it's very important for all of you who have been following this case to continue to get good information about it.

[00:10:35] [SPEAKER_01]: So we're going to try to figure out a way to cover this case without killing ourselves.

[00:10:41] [SPEAKER_01]: But I just wanted to note that Judge Gull, it's obviously she obviously doesn't care about giving people information about one of the most important trials in Indiana history.

[00:10:57] [SPEAKER_01]: And she doesn't care about the fact that she's given the Indiana legal system a black eye because people all over the world are looking at this case and this story and how this trial is being handled.

[00:11:08] [SPEAKER_01]: And Indiana is not coming off well when it's entirely because of her.

[00:11:14] [SPEAKER_03]: And I just think, again, whenever something like we can all maybe say, well, we have differing opinions on like how much the public should get or what what convenience should be there for public attendees to a trial.

[00:11:25] [SPEAKER_03]: Like maybe we have different opinions.

[00:11:27] [SPEAKER_03]: But ultimately, if you're creating a situation where I mean, I saw like three verbal altercations break out in this line, you know, that's day one.

[00:11:36] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't feel like that's a good system because it could ultimately lead to some, you know, people getting hurt, people fighting each other in a really needless way.

[00:11:46] [SPEAKER_03]: When all that is people want rules in this situation, people want to be told, go here and you may get this.

[00:11:54] [SPEAKER_01]: And not only that, people want rules that stay the same from one day to the other.

[00:11:58] [SPEAKER_03]: Yes.

[00:11:59] [SPEAKER_03]: People don't want to be told, get in line here.

[00:12:01] [SPEAKER_03]: No, get out.

[00:12:01] [SPEAKER_03]: Go downstairs.

[00:12:03] [SPEAKER_03]: No, no, no.

[00:12:03] [SPEAKER_03]: Come back up.

[00:12:04] [SPEAKER_03]: People want to be told, just tell people what to do.

[00:12:06] [SPEAKER_03]: Clearly, some people will still walk away.

[00:12:09] [SPEAKER_03]: Most people will still walk away disappointed.

[00:12:11] [SPEAKER_03]: I would really encourage you if you're considering coming to trial to consider not coming, because if it's going to be very upsetting and expensive for you to come and not be able to get in, just acknowledge that that is a very likely thing that will happen.

[00:12:26] [SPEAKER_03]: And you should really consider that.

[00:12:56] [SPEAKER_03]: As true crime podcasters, we know that conversations with those in pain can bring about empowerment, clarity, and catharsis.

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[00:14:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Can I move on to something else before we get to the trial?

[00:14:37] [SPEAKER_03]: Let's do it.

[00:14:38] [SPEAKER_01]: So the other day, I thought this was interesting.

[00:14:42] [SPEAKER_01]: I didn't mention it, but I did think it was interesting.

[00:14:47] [SPEAKER_01]: So there was this YouTuber in Fort Wayne during the jury selection process who would walk around the courthouse in the vicinity of the courthouse.

[00:14:59] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, you mean like around the outside of the courthouse?

[00:15:02] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, walk around the outside of the courthouse in the vicinity of the courthouse.

[00:15:04] [SPEAKER_01]: And she would approach people with her whatever she was using to film and say, are you a potential juror?

[00:15:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Are you a potential juror?

[00:15:13] [SPEAKER_01]: So she was trying to record the faces of these potential jurors.

[00:15:17] [SPEAKER_01]: And she was also recording some license plates of cars that I think quite likely belong to some potential jurors.

[00:15:25] [SPEAKER_01]: So this is a huge invasion of a lot.

[00:15:29] [SPEAKER_01]: It really threatens to compromise the integrity of the jury process.

[00:15:36] [SPEAKER_01]: So a YouTuber does something irresponsible and shameful.

[00:15:40] [SPEAKER_01]: That's not news.

[00:15:40] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that's every day on YouTube.

[00:15:41] [SPEAKER_01]: But what made it a little interesting to me was a name you've heard before, a disgraced YouTuber, Bob Mata.

[00:15:51] [SPEAKER_01]: He tweeted out that, oh, I've decided to come to Fort Wayne and guess what?

[00:15:56] [SPEAKER_01]: This one particular YouTuber has offered to let me like crash at her hotel.

[00:16:01] [SPEAKER_01]: And the YouTuber he's crashing with is the one who is doing this thing to the potential jurors.

[00:16:08] [SPEAKER_01]: So I found that troubling.

[00:16:10] [SPEAKER_01]: But I didn't say anything about it.

[00:16:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe I should have.

[00:16:13] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, I mean, we didn't really want to give this attention necessarily.

[00:16:18] [SPEAKER_03]: But given what's happened, I think it's fair.

[00:16:20] [SPEAKER_01]: So today, as we mentioned, Anya and I had to get in line at 11 p.m.

[00:16:27] [SPEAKER_01]: in the freezing cold to see this trial.

[00:16:32] [SPEAKER_01]: There were other people who got in line at like 4.30 or a little after that time.

[00:16:38] [SPEAKER_01]: They didn't even get in.

[00:16:40] [SPEAKER_01]: So they stood shivering in the cold for hours because this case was that important to them and they didn't get in.

[00:16:47] [SPEAKER_01]: So we all get seated.

[00:16:49] [SPEAKER_01]: The lucky ones get seated.

[00:16:51] [SPEAKER_01]: And then about 20 minutes or so before the session begins, Bob Mata walks in with Rosie.

[00:17:00] [SPEAKER_01]: And Rosie gestures to a woman who's sitting in one of the defense seats.

[00:17:05] [SPEAKER_01]: I think her name is Sarah.

[00:17:07] [SPEAKER_01]: And he asked her to move so that Bob Mata can sit there.

[00:17:10] [SPEAKER_01]: So these seats are very valuable commodities.

[00:17:14] [SPEAKER_01]: And one of them was being given to Bob Mata.

[00:17:17] [SPEAKER_01]: And you have to assume that if it is important for the defense to give Bob Mata a seat there, it's because there's a close relationship there and that he's basically acting as a shill for them.

[00:17:31] [SPEAKER_01]: He is their spokesman going out and repeating their talking points.

[00:17:35] [SPEAKER_01]: And he is so closely aligned to them that he is actually sitting with them and their team at this trial.

[00:17:42] [SPEAKER_01]: And I don't know if he discloses that to his audience.

[00:17:45] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if he discloses that at all.

[00:17:48] [SPEAKER_01]: But I think it's not the sort of behavior that is ideal.

[00:17:54] [SPEAKER_01]: I would never tell a person, oh, you shouldn't listen to this.

[00:17:59] [SPEAKER_01]: You shouldn't watch this.

[00:18:02] [SPEAKER_01]: If you want to listen to a shill, if you want to watch a shill, by all means.

[00:18:09] [SPEAKER_01]: But I just want to make sure that that's an educated choice.

[00:18:12] [SPEAKER_01]: And you need to know that a shill is a shill.

[00:18:15] [SPEAKER_01]: And Bob Mata is a shill.

[00:18:17] [SPEAKER_01]: And what he is offering you is talking points from defense.

[00:18:22] [SPEAKER_03]: In exchange for access and seats.

[00:18:25] [SPEAKER_01]: He's not giving you a fair and independent analysis.

[00:18:28] [SPEAKER_01]: He is working with them and getting things from them, whether he discloses it or not.

[00:18:33] [SPEAKER_01]: And that is pretty much the definition of a shill, which is all he is.

[00:18:38] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think I referred to him as a disgraced YouTuber.

[00:18:41] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that may have been too generous.

[00:18:43] [SPEAKER_01]: But shall we move on?

[00:18:44] [SPEAKER_03]: No, let me just say, lead attorney Bradley Rosie escorting somebody into – and just to be clear, when we're talking about this, first row is credentialed media.

[00:18:56] [SPEAKER_03]: And then there's a row, I believe, that is reserved for just defense people.

[00:19:01] [SPEAKER_03]: So Kathy Allen is in that row, Richard Allen's wife.

[00:19:04] [SPEAKER_03]: Janice Allen was in that row, Richard Allen's mother.

[00:19:07] [SPEAKER_03]: Marvin Allen, Richard Allen's stepfather, is in that row.

[00:19:11] [SPEAKER_03]: All of those people makes a lot of sense that they'd be there to potentially support Richard Allen, support each other during this difficult time.

[00:19:18] [SPEAKER_03]: And there's other people in there, and one of them is Bob Mana.

[00:19:21] [SPEAKER_03]: And these are seats that I imagine are the defenses to give out, right?

[00:19:26] [SPEAKER_03]: And again, as indicated by the fact that Bradley Rosie rolled out the red carpet, so to speak here.

[00:19:32] [SPEAKER_03]: So I think in the past, we've done a lot of reporting on Bob's association with the defense team and why we felt that in many ways it was very questionable and very ethically dubious.

[00:19:46] [SPEAKER_03]: But in case there was any doubt about what we were saying there, people thought we went too far.

[00:19:51] [SPEAKER_03]: I think the fact that he's sitting with the defense at this trial is a pretty good indication that we may have been onto something.

[00:19:58] [SPEAKER_01]: And I have to tell you, when this happened, there were audible gaffes in the room.

[00:20:04] [SPEAKER_01]: There were.

[00:20:05] [SPEAKER_01]: People were like turning and looking at us with their mouths agape.

[00:20:10] [SPEAKER_01]: People were horrified.

[00:20:11] [SPEAKER_01]: As in my opinion, they should have been.

[00:20:14] [SPEAKER_03]: He just admitted it.

[00:20:16] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it was amusing.

[00:20:19] [SPEAKER_03]: Not surprising to me, but certainly illustrative, I think, for a lot of people.

[00:20:25] [SPEAKER_03]: It's possible to believe in this defense team, be very pro to this defense team, and to be an independent creator who's just spouting their opinion and saying,

[00:20:36] [SPEAKER_03]: Hey, this is what I think, guys.

[00:20:37] [SPEAKER_03]: This is why I think they're doing a great job.

[00:20:38] [SPEAKER_03]: That is a very possible thing to be, and there's no issue with that.

[00:20:42] [SPEAKER_03]: That's your opinion.

[00:20:43] [SPEAKER_03]: Go for it.

[00:20:44] [SPEAKER_03]: It's another thing to be posing as that while you are directly working with them.

[00:20:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Anya mentioned us all lining up to get back into the courtroom at one point because we weren't allowed on the third floor.

[00:20:56] [SPEAKER_01]: And I remember at one point during that process, I looked up and on the third floor, there was Bob Mata standing with the Allen family because, again, part of the defense team.

[00:21:04] [SPEAKER_01]: This is a disagreeable topic that just makes you.

[00:21:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:21:10] [SPEAKER_01]: So let's move on.

[00:21:11] [SPEAKER_03]: Slimy.

[00:21:12] [SPEAKER_03]: All right.

[00:21:12] [SPEAKER_03]: Let's go.

[00:21:13] [SPEAKER_03]: Is it trial time?

[00:21:15] [SPEAKER_03]: Finally?

[00:21:15] [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's trial time.

[00:21:17] [SPEAKER_03]: Let's talk about the trial.

[00:21:18] [SPEAKER_01]: So, goal comes in at 910.

[00:21:22] [SPEAKER_03]: She seemed actually in a good mood to start.

[00:21:24] [SPEAKER_01]: And we found out why.

[00:21:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[00:21:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Because she said, well, the reason why I'm late is because I had to arrange for some cameras to be confiscated from some media people.

[00:21:37] [SPEAKER_01]: She said that some media people took pictures of the jury.

[00:21:41] [SPEAKER_01]: I have no idea if that's true or not.

[00:21:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I have no idea.

[00:21:44] [SPEAKER_01]: At this point, I'm not going to take her.

[00:21:46] [SPEAKER_03]: And I'm not going to name the people because we don't know what happened.

[00:21:48] [SPEAKER_03]: But it's NBC and the Associated Press were two of them and then two other ones where the outlet was not named.

[00:21:53] [SPEAKER_03]: But I'm just going to say this.

[00:21:55] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, this legitimately the happiest I have seen her on the bench in a while.

[00:22:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[00:22:02] [SPEAKER_03]: And those cameras will never be returned.

[00:22:05] [SPEAKER_03]: They took them.

[00:22:06] [SPEAKER_03]: They confiscated the SD cards.

[00:22:09] [SPEAKER_03]: They're not getting them back.

[00:22:10] [SPEAKER_03]: These are, you know, these are.

[00:22:11] [SPEAKER_01]: And based on what I know about Judge Gill's attitudes towards the press and other things, I don't necessarily take her account at face value.

[00:22:19] [SPEAKER_01]: But that's what she said.

[00:22:21] [SPEAKER_01]: And then she said.

[00:22:21] [SPEAKER_03]: Listen, if they were photographing the jury, that's obviously irresponsible and they shouldn't have done that.

[00:22:26] [SPEAKER_03]: Whether or not that's an accident on purpose or what exactly happened.

[00:22:29] [SPEAKER_03]: Because we didn't see it, we can't really come down on either side.

[00:22:33] [SPEAKER_01]: And then she said, well, we have some housekeeping.

[00:22:35] [SPEAKER_01]: There were a couple of minor things that needed to be addressed.

[00:22:40] [SPEAKER_01]: As we'll mention in a moment, one thing that happens at the start of any trial is the judge reads this long thing to the jury, basically saying, well, here's what's going on.

[00:22:52] [SPEAKER_01]: And here's what we expect of you.

[00:22:54] [SPEAKER_01]: And here are the standards.

[00:22:55] [SPEAKER_01]: And so apparently the defense had some special requests around what she would read to them about the definition of reasonable doubt.

[00:23:02] [SPEAKER_01]: And she accepted those.

[00:23:04] [SPEAKER_01]: She also mentioned that the defense and prosecution had entered joint stipulations.

[00:23:11] [SPEAKER_01]: So typically in a trial, you have to prove every last thing.

[00:23:17] [SPEAKER_01]: But oftentimes the defense and the prosecution will agree on a few basic issues.

[00:23:26] [SPEAKER_01]: And when they do that and put it in writing, that's called a joint stipulation.

[00:23:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Like if Anya was facing criminal charges for potentially having stolen cereal at her house, it'd be important to establish that that was indeed a house she owned.

[00:23:44] [SPEAKER_01]: And she could stipulate the yes, I do own that house.

[00:23:48] [SPEAKER_01]: And if she doesn't stipulate to that, you know, the prosecution would have to go and get bank records and things of that nature.

[00:23:55] [SPEAKER_01]: So this is basically a good thing when the teams agree to that that certain things are true.

[00:24:02] [SPEAKER_01]: That means the trial itself is going to be a little bit shorter.

[00:24:06] [SPEAKER_01]: There's less things to prove.

[00:24:08] [SPEAKER_03]: Right.

[00:24:09] [SPEAKER_03]: Exactly.

[00:24:10] [SPEAKER_03]: Which is helpful in this case.

[00:24:12] [SPEAKER_03]: It's already a long trial.

[00:24:13] [SPEAKER_03]: So having some areas where everyone can agree and we can kind of move along quickly, I think makes sense.

[00:24:19] [SPEAKER_01]: And then she made some rulings.

[00:24:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Do you want to discuss that?

[00:24:22] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, I will say one thing that was interesting, breaking down, I think, the elements.

[00:24:27] [SPEAKER_03]: And I want to do this for the audience because I thought it was helpful in the way to think about some of these things.

[00:24:32] [SPEAKER_03]: If that's okay, Kevin.

[00:24:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[00:24:35] [SPEAKER_03]: She talked about, like, the definitions of kind of the murder and the felony murder.

[00:24:42] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, can I...

[00:24:42] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, yeah.

[00:24:43] [SPEAKER_03]: Go ahead.

[00:24:44] [SPEAKER_01]: She had some motions before she got to that.

[00:24:45] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, before she got to that?

[00:24:46] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, okay.

[00:24:47] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm sorry.

[00:24:47] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm blurring things together.

[00:24:48] [SPEAKER_01]: We got two hours sleep, though.

[00:24:51] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm just normally like this in fairness.

[00:24:54] [SPEAKER_03]: It's not much of a change.

[00:24:55] [SPEAKER_01]: There was an outstanding motion on whether or not sketches would be allowed.

[00:25:00] [SPEAKER_03]: Sketches are out.

[00:25:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Sketches.

[00:25:02] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm not surprised given how things went the other day.

[00:25:05] [SPEAKER_03]: And also she indicated that she, you know, was going to probably do that.

[00:25:09] [SPEAKER_03]: So sketches are out.

[00:25:10] [SPEAKER_03]: The sketches are not going to be used at trial at all.

[00:25:13] [SPEAKER_03]: I think I had mixed feelings about this generally.

[00:25:16] [SPEAKER_03]: I kind of felt like, well, you know, seems reasonable for the defense to raise those issues.

[00:25:22] [SPEAKER_03]: But I also understood McClellan's take that the sketches weren't even used to identify Richard Allen.

[00:25:27] [SPEAKER_03]: So what really role did they play?

[00:25:30] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:25:31] [SPEAKER_03]: And they can certainly cross-examine witness Betsy Blair, who described seeing a younger man.

[00:25:37] [SPEAKER_03]: So they can still get that in in front of the jury.

[00:25:39] [SPEAKER_03]: It's just they're not going to have a sketch to look at.

[00:25:41] [SPEAKER_01]: And then Rosie said, well, there's another outstanding motion.

[00:25:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Should I be going to be allowed to have our expert, Bill Tobin, testify?

[00:25:50] [SPEAKER_01]: And she said it got too late last night for her to read the information on that.

[00:25:54] [SPEAKER_01]: But she'd do it soon and make a ruling on that matter soon.

[00:25:58] [SPEAKER_01]: And then she made the point, this is kind of a truism in law, but it's always worth repeating.

[00:26:06] [SPEAKER_01]: The first thing that was going to happen after the definition that Ani is going to discuss in a moment is going to be the opening statements.

[00:26:14] [SPEAKER_01]: And she just reminded everyone that the opening statements is not an argument and it's not evidence.

[00:26:21] [SPEAKER_01]: It's just a preview of what evidence is expected to show.

[00:26:26] [SPEAKER_01]: So basically what that means is the lawyer, what the lawyer says is not evidence that should be considered by the jury.

[00:26:39] [SPEAKER_01]: He's just telling the jury, here's like a preview of coming attractions.

[00:26:42] [SPEAKER_01]: If I say as the prosecutor, I'm going to find 10 people who heard Anya say,

[00:26:50] [SPEAKER_01]: gosh, there's nothing I love more than stealing cereal.

[00:26:52] [SPEAKER_01]: And then during the course of the trial, those witnesses don't testify.

[00:26:56] [SPEAKER_03]: Who snitched.

[00:26:56] [SPEAKER_01]: The jury can't say, well, we remember Kevin in his opening statement said that 10 people said this.

[00:27:02] [SPEAKER_01]: So that's evidence that we can consider.

[00:27:04] [SPEAKER_03]: Kevin wrote a check he couldn't cash.

[00:27:06] [SPEAKER_01]: So that just, that's what it means.

[00:27:08] [SPEAKER_01]: You can't consider the statements themselves as evidence.

[00:27:12] [SPEAKER_01]: They're just kind of like a summary in advance to kind of whet the appetite.

[00:27:16] [SPEAKER_03]: Right.

[00:27:16] [SPEAKER_03]: And it's important that attorneys then don't argue in their opening statements,

[00:27:20] [SPEAKER_03]: which is something that ended up happening plot twist.

[00:27:22] [SPEAKER_03]: But we'll get to that later.

[00:27:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Now talk about the definition.

[00:27:25] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know.

[00:27:25] [SPEAKER_03]: I just find it helpful when people break things down so I can understand it.

[00:27:29] [SPEAKER_03]: Because otherwise I don't really understand a lot of things.

[00:27:31] [SPEAKER_03]: It's just my life.

[00:27:32] [SPEAKER_03]: But I guess this is what was broken down in terms of the counts that Richard Allen is specifically facing.

[00:27:40] [SPEAKER_03]: Now, as a reminder, he's facing four counts of murder.

[00:27:44] [SPEAKER_03]: Two for each victim.

[00:27:46] [SPEAKER_03]: One is sort of what I would call the traditional murder.

[00:27:49] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, and the intentional killing of another human being.

[00:27:51] [SPEAKER_03]: And then the other two are what I would describe as it's not called this in Indiana,

[00:27:56] [SPEAKER_03]: but it is essentially felony murder, which means murder.

[00:27:59] [SPEAKER_03]: Someone dies when someone is committing a specific potentially violent or dangerous felony.

[00:28:05] [SPEAKER_03]: So if I'm stealing cereal, waving a gun around to people, I mean, that's kind of making the fun example a little bit dark.

[00:28:13] [SPEAKER_03]: But and somebody, you know, gets shot and dies, then I'm I'm.

[00:28:17] [SPEAKER_03]: No, actually, it's more like if Kevin was with me and I was flailing the gun around, because that's probably how it would go.

[00:28:23] [SPEAKER_03]: To be honest.

[00:28:24] [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, we not even not even questioning that.

[00:28:28] [SPEAKER_03]: Everybody.

[00:28:29] [SPEAKER_03]: We and I shot somebody.

[00:28:31] [SPEAKER_03]: He's helping me with the felony.

[00:28:32] [SPEAKER_03]: He doesn't have to be the shooter.

[00:28:34] [SPEAKER_03]: It's still it's still can count for him.

[00:28:36] [SPEAKER_03]: So but let's break them down to their basis elements.

[00:28:39] [SPEAKER_03]: This is what the prosecution has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt and make sure that the jury is reasonably convinced.

[00:28:48] [SPEAKER_03]: Was that the standard essentially?

[00:28:50] [SPEAKER_01]: I think so.

[00:28:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:28:51] [SPEAKER_01]: I didn't write it down.

[00:28:52] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, it was was, you know, firmly convinced.

[00:28:55] [SPEAKER_03]: I think that was it.

[00:28:56] [SPEAKER_03]: Firmly convinced that that the following aspects are true.

[00:29:02] [SPEAKER_03]: And if they can't do that, then he should be acquitted.

[00:29:07] [SPEAKER_03]: One.

[00:29:08] [SPEAKER_03]: Richard Allen.

[00:29:09] [SPEAKER_03]: Two.

[00:29:10] [SPEAKER_03]: Killed.

[00:29:11] [SPEAKER_03]: Three.

[00:29:12] [SPEAKER_03]: Abigail Williams.

[00:29:13] [SPEAKER_03]: Four.

[00:29:13] [SPEAKER_03]: While committing or intending to commit kidnapping.

[00:29:17] [SPEAKER_03]: Then the same thing for Libby.

[00:29:19] [SPEAKER_03]: Those are the two felony murders.

[00:29:20] [SPEAKER_03]: And then the other two are one.

[00:29:23] [SPEAKER_03]: Richard Allen.

[00:29:24] [SPEAKER_03]: Two.

[00:29:25] [SPEAKER_03]: Knowingly and intentionally killed.

[00:29:27] [SPEAKER_03]: Knowing and knowingly and intentionally three killed.

[00:29:31] [SPEAKER_03]: Four.

[00:29:32] [SPEAKER_03]: Abigail Williams.

[00:29:32] [SPEAKER_03]: And again, the second one.

[00:29:33] [SPEAKER_03]: Same thing with Liberty German.

[00:29:35] [SPEAKER_03]: Carmen.

[00:29:36] [SPEAKER_03]: So I don't know.

[00:29:37] [SPEAKER_03]: I just found it interesting kind of breaking it down to those like basic elements.

[00:29:40] [SPEAKER_03]: It's almost like a math problem.

[00:29:42] [SPEAKER_03]: Like do you get something that adds up to all of these things or do you fall short?

[00:29:46] [SPEAKER_03]: Because if you fall short with any of those aspects, if you fall short and people are not

[00:29:51] [SPEAKER_03]: certain of this, then, you know, that you have to acquit.

[00:29:55] [SPEAKER_03]: You can't just be like, oh, well, I think this guy has guilty vibes.

[00:29:58] [SPEAKER_03]: So we're going to go with it anyway.

[00:30:00] [SPEAKER_03]: You have to be firmly convinced.

[00:30:02] [SPEAKER_03]: And that is what this is all going to boil down to.

[00:30:05] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:30:06] [SPEAKER_01]: That was the point I believe Baldwin made in the voir dire.

[00:30:11] [SPEAKER_01]: If you think, even if after you listen to everything in the trial, you emerge convinced,

[00:30:17] [SPEAKER_01]: well, Richard Allen is probably guilty.

[00:30:19] [SPEAKER_01]: That's not good enough.

[00:30:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Guilty is a legal determination, at least in the context of a court.

[00:30:27] [SPEAKER_01]: And you can't apply it to a person unless they meet a certain standard.

[00:30:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Now, in your own life, in your own private life, you can look at somebody and say, well,

[00:30:34] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah, I think O.J. Simpson is guilty, even if he was acquitted.

[00:30:37] [SPEAKER_01]: But when you're in a court of law, when you're a juror, you have to use the legal standard,

[00:30:41] [SPEAKER_01]: which is very high.

[00:30:42] [SPEAKER_03]: It's very high.

[00:30:44] [SPEAKER_01]: So Nick McClellan's opening statement opened up interestingly, and Anya had a humorous remark

[00:30:50] [SPEAKER_01]: about it.

[00:30:52] [SPEAKER_03]: What did I say?

[00:30:56] [SPEAKER_03]: Did I?

[00:30:57] [SPEAKER_03]: Yes.

[00:30:57] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I wasn't like cracking wise in the courtroom.

[00:30:59] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, this was later.

[00:31:00] [SPEAKER_03]: Later.

[00:31:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Later, as we were talking about it before we kind of did our own little mini podcast on

[00:31:05] [SPEAKER_01]: the drive to the hotel.

[00:31:06] [SPEAKER_03]: So Steve Mullen, who's the chief investigator for the prosecution.

[00:31:11] [SPEAKER_01]: And he is known, I guess, because he's emerged.

[00:31:14] [SPEAKER_01]: He's known for many reasons.

[00:31:15] [SPEAKER_01]: But among the defense team, he's known because he is accused of accidentally, or I guess

[00:31:24] [SPEAKER_01]: they might argue intentionally.

[00:31:26] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't think they had evidence for intentionally.

[00:31:28] [SPEAKER_03]: They did try to argue that and it kind of fell on his face.

[00:31:31] [SPEAKER_01]: But he was somehow involved with the deletion of a lot of recorded interviews.

[00:31:36] [SPEAKER_03]: He was the Delphi police chief when the murders happened.

[00:31:38] [SPEAKER_03]: And then he later went on to work for the county.

[00:31:41] [SPEAKER_00]: So with that.

[00:31:42] [SPEAKER_03]: But so like, so anyways, but you know, the whole technical issues around Steve Mullen came up.

[00:31:47] [SPEAKER_03]: And he, this started off with several awkward minutes of him struggling with to set up this,

[00:31:53] [SPEAKER_03]: like smart TV situation that they had in there, the smart TV monitor.

[00:31:59] [SPEAKER_03]: They wanted to play a video.

[00:32:00] [SPEAKER_03]: It was not cooperating.

[00:32:02] [SPEAKER_03]: I felt bad for everyone involved.

[00:32:05] [SPEAKER_03]: It was, it was one of those things you're cringing a little bit like, oh, that's not the right time to have the tech issues.

[00:32:10] [SPEAKER_03]: And I was like, why are they keep giving these things to Steve Mullen?

[00:32:13] [SPEAKER_03]: I think that's, that's probably unfair.

[00:32:15] [SPEAKER_03]: I imagine it was not his fault in that these things just happen.

[00:32:19] [SPEAKER_03]: And he's not cursed by technology.

[00:32:21] [SPEAKER_03]: And some of us are, but you know, I, I, it was just a silly remark.

[00:32:25] [SPEAKER_03]: I, you know, it was, it was unfortunate, but ultimately stuff like this is sort of to be expected in a trial.

[00:32:31] [SPEAKER_03]: This would never happen to the fellows in law and order.

[00:32:33] [SPEAKER_03]: Right.

[00:32:33] [SPEAKER_03]: But, but it certainly happens in real life.

[00:32:36] [SPEAKER_03]: I've seen, I've seen a prosecutor try to set up a video on a laptop, give up halfway through and just roll with it.

[00:32:43] [SPEAKER_03]: So like this, you know, it, it wasn't one of, I mean, it wasn't, it wasn't a moment to be a crowned in glory, but it wasn't like a huge deal in my opinion.

[00:32:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, so let's talk about the statement itself.

[00:32:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, but Cleveland started by repeating a line from his many opening statements, which is that this is a case about bridge guy, a bullet and the brutal murder of two girls.

[00:33:07] [SPEAKER_01]: And he said, Richard Allen murdered Abigail Williams and Liberty German on February 13th.

[00:33:15] [SPEAKER_01]: That is the day that everything changed for Abigail Williams and Liberty German.

[00:33:21] [SPEAKER_01]: And he started describing the day, didn't he?

[00:33:23] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:33:24] [SPEAKER_03]: He talked about it being an unseasonally warm, um, summer's day in winter.

[00:33:28] [SPEAKER_03]: And because of a quirk of the school calendar, both girls had the day off.

[00:33:32] [SPEAKER_03]: He described them as quote, they were best friends.

[00:33:34] [SPEAKER_03]: They were always together.

[00:33:36] [SPEAKER_03]: They always were together.

[00:33:37] [SPEAKER_03]: They were more like sisters than friends, end quote, which is something we've heard from a lot of people in Delphi.

[00:33:43] [SPEAKER_01]: And he, there were always rumors that Abby had a phone too, not just Libby, but he said only Libby had a phone, but Libby had it set up so it could use Abby's fingerprints so that Abby could use it whenever she wanted.

[00:33:58] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:33:58] [SPEAKER_03]: Um, and, uh, McClellan described how this day, February 13th, uh, 2017, a Monday, the girls decided to go to the.

[00:34:10] [SPEAKER_01]: It was a day off from school.

[00:34:11] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:34:12] [SPEAKER_01]: They decided to go to the Monon High Bridge.

[00:34:15] [SPEAKER_03]: The trails in Delphi.

[00:34:16] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:34:17] [SPEAKER_01]: And, uh, Libby's, uh, older sister, Kelsey agreed to give them a ride there.

[00:34:22] [SPEAKER_01]: And Derek German, uh, Libby and Kelsey's father was to pick them up.

[00:34:28] [SPEAKER_03]: Um, he describes the bridge, uh, quote, it's a very high bridge.

[00:34:34] [SPEAKER_03]: It's a very old bridge.

[00:34:35] [SPEAKER_03]: It's a very long bridge.

[00:34:37] [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, there's nowhere to go, you know, so end quote.

[00:34:40] [SPEAKER_03]: And then there's nowhere to go once you're on it.

[00:34:42] [SPEAKER_01]: He said there was no way to escape, but to jump off.

[00:34:45] [SPEAKER_01]: And so, uh, that really illustrates how, uh, trapped.

[00:34:50] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:34:52] [SPEAKER_03]: Um, he talked about like how this kind of bridge in Delphi is kind of a common place for people to go and like kids walk on it or walked on it.

[00:35:00] [SPEAKER_03]: He talked about it when he was a kid, he walked on it, you know, but it's kind of, it's a very scary bridge.

[00:35:05] [SPEAKER_03]: Um, and, uh, yeah, they talked about, um.

[00:35:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Abby and Libby are together.

[00:35:11] [SPEAKER_01]: They cross the bridge as they do so.

[00:35:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Libby continues to take pictures, uh.

[00:35:17] [SPEAKER_03]: Of Abby and, and yeah.

[00:35:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Abby reaches the end of the bridge first.

[00:35:22] [SPEAKER_03]: No, I thought, it wasn't, Libby reached the end of the bridge first.

[00:35:25] [SPEAKER_03]: It was Libby leading, Abby following.

[00:35:28] [SPEAKER_01]: And Libby notices that a man is following Abby.

[00:35:34] [SPEAKER_01]: And she films him and this guy, uh, pulls a gun and orders them to go down the hill.

[00:35:42] [SPEAKER_01]: And they comply.

[00:35:44] [SPEAKER_01]: And at that point, the video is, uh, cut off.

[00:35:48] [SPEAKER_03]: So there's been rumors for years and people have always asked us,

[00:35:52] [SPEAKER_03]: is there more, is there more, is the whole thing recorded?

[00:35:55] [SPEAKER_03]: And our understanding has always been no.

[00:35:58] [SPEAKER_03]: But this is pretty good confirmation.

[00:36:01] [SPEAKER_01]: And people have also wondered why Libby began to film.

[00:36:07] [SPEAKER_01]: And McClellan said, you know, sometimes you just get a feeling.

[00:36:09] [SPEAKER_01]: He said, you get that chill, that feeling.

[00:36:12] [SPEAKER_01]: And he believes Libby got a feeling like that.

[00:36:14] [SPEAKER_01]: And that is why she decided to film this man who, of course,

[00:36:19] [SPEAKER_01]: McClellan alleges to have been Richard Allen.

[00:36:22] [SPEAKER_03]: I think when you're two teenage girls alone in the woods and you're up high on a bridge

[00:36:28] [SPEAKER_03]: and some guy is kind of starting to amble towards you,

[00:36:33] [SPEAKER_03]: that is going to cause a creepy feeling.

[00:36:35] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, fortunately, maybe nine times out of ten,

[00:36:37] [SPEAKER_03]: it's just a guy who's walking past you and there's no, no ill intent.

[00:36:40] [SPEAKER_03]: But there's, but there's something that obviously felt wrong to Libby here.

[00:36:45] [SPEAKER_01]: He said, McClellan said, imagine the fear as a gun is pointed at you.

[00:36:52] [SPEAKER_01]: The girls complied.

[00:36:54] [SPEAKER_01]: They were completely powerless.

[00:36:58] [SPEAKER_03]: Yes.

[00:36:59] [SPEAKER_03]: And another thing people often talk about, and I find it kind of like exasperating to kind of

[00:37:04] [SPEAKER_03]: keep making the same points, but like, please understand that like,

[00:37:07] [SPEAKER_03]: it's really easy for us all to say, oh yeah, if someone pointed a gun at me,

[00:37:11] [SPEAKER_03]: I'd just run or like, I'd fight back.

[00:37:14] [SPEAKER_03]: I would never let them take me to a second look.

[00:37:16] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, that is something that you are saying without a gun being pointed at you, right?

[00:37:21] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, like, I tell myself things like that.

[00:37:23] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, I'd never let myself be taken.

[00:37:24] [SPEAKER_03]: But let's be honest, if you're in that situation where you're dealing with a fight or flight response

[00:37:29] [SPEAKER_03]: and your brain is frozen, and in this situation you have someone else you care about,

[00:37:34] [SPEAKER_03]: so if you just cut and run, they might suffer the consequences.

[00:37:39] [SPEAKER_03]: Compliance might be a natural reaction.

[00:37:42] [SPEAKER_03]: And when people talk about one person,

[00:37:45] [SPEAKER_03]: and I'm not even making a comment about what theory is most likely,

[00:37:48] [SPEAKER_03]: but when people talk about one man overpowering or taking under his power two people,

[00:37:54] [SPEAKER_03]: teenage girls, first of all, we've done episodes on a number of different murders of multiple children

[00:38:02] [SPEAKER_03]: in broad daylight by strangers.

[00:38:04] [SPEAKER_03]: It happens.

[00:38:05] [SPEAKER_03]: It's rare, but it certainly happens.

[00:38:07] [SPEAKER_03]: And second of all, a gun is a very good way to immediately assert control

[00:38:11] [SPEAKER_03]: and ensure that people comply with you.

[00:38:13] [SPEAKER_03]: So this is just something, you know, that argument has always never really, you know,

[00:38:19] [SPEAKER_03]: kind of meant anything to me because it's like you can easily do a lot of things

[00:38:24] [SPEAKER_03]: and control a lot of people with a gun, including two kids who are scared and alone in the woods.

[00:38:30] [SPEAKER_01]: So Derek German arrives to pick up his daughter and Abby cannot find them.

[00:38:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Police are ultimately called.

[00:38:39] [SPEAKER_01]: And as we all know, after a search, the girls were found dead.

[00:38:44] [SPEAKER_01]: And McClellan told the jurors they will see pictures of this.

[00:38:47] [SPEAKER_01]: And he tells them Libby was naked.

[00:38:51] [SPEAKER_01]: She was covered in blood.

[00:38:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Her throat was cut in several places and blood was everywhere, including on a tree.

[00:38:59] [SPEAKER_01]: He says Abby had her own undershirt on, but Libby's sweatshirt and jeans.

[00:39:07] [SPEAKER_01]: And she wore her own shoes, but no socks.

[00:39:12] [SPEAKER_03]: Yes.

[00:39:13] [SPEAKER_03]: Yes.

[00:39:13] [SPEAKER_03]: And she had one of Libby's shoes and Libby's cell phone under her body.

[00:39:19] [SPEAKER_01]: And also, of course, on the scene, there was a Winchester .40 caliber bullet.

[00:39:25] [SPEAKER_03]: And the girls, other articles of the girls' clothing had been tossed into Deer Creek.

[00:39:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[00:39:32] [SPEAKER_01]: But Cleland continues the story.

[00:39:34] [SPEAKER_01]: He says some witnesses came forward who were also on the trail and had taken some pictures.

[00:39:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Some were, they ran into a man who was walking with purpose and he did not seem friendly.

[00:39:48] [SPEAKER_01]: And he told the jury that they will, these people would tell the jury that the person they saw was a bridge guy.

[00:39:55] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:39:56] [SPEAKER_03]: They're going to say it's the guy in the video where you see this bridge guy lumbering towards the girls.

[00:40:02] [SPEAKER_01]: Betsy Blair saw a bridge guy on the bridge.

[00:40:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Sarah Carball saw a muddy, bloody man walking on the road and apparently says that he looked like he had, quote, just slaughtered a pig.

[00:40:19] [SPEAKER_01]: McClellan then confirmed something we've heard a long time.

[00:40:23] [SPEAKER_03]: And something that we've reported.

[00:40:24] [SPEAKER_01]: We have reported this.

[00:40:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Tell them about Kathy Shanks.

[00:40:27] [SPEAKER_03]: So it's Kathy Shank, I believe.

[00:40:29] [SPEAKER_03]: And so McClellan said that in 20 – so Department of Natural Resources Officer Dan Doolin, we already know this, interviewed Richard Allen in February 2017 shortly after the murders.

[00:40:43] [SPEAKER_03]: And that this tip was – he didn't mention this part, but I mean obviously because it's a mistake.

[00:40:49] [SPEAKER_03]: But that tip was ultimately misfiled.

[00:40:52] [SPEAKER_03]: Our understanding from filings is that it was classified – he was classified as Richard Whiteman of Allen Drive, which is not his name obviously.

[00:41:01] [SPEAKER_03]: It was a mix-up.

[00:41:03] [SPEAKER_03]: And that we learned though now how this was uncovered.

[00:41:08] [SPEAKER_00]: So Kathy Shank.

[00:41:10] [SPEAKER_03]: I think it's just Shank.

[00:41:11] [SPEAKER_00]: Kathy Shank.

[00:41:12] [SPEAKER_03]: Kathy Shank was going through the, I guess, records of the case.

[00:41:19] [SPEAKER_03]: As happens, you kind of keep going through maybe back to the beginning or in other different – opening different boxes, so to speak, or whatever, to kind of look over is there anything we missed with this unsolved case.

[00:41:31] [SPEAKER_03]: And she seemingly found this tip.

[00:41:33] [SPEAKER_01]: This tip that says there was this man who says he was there from 1.30 to 3.30 and that he saw three girls.

[00:41:40] [SPEAKER_01]: She calls this to the attention of Tony Liggett.

[00:41:43] [SPEAKER_01]: And Tony Liggett says, wait a minute, there were three girls who said they saw Bridge Guy.

[00:41:48] [SPEAKER_01]: This could be something big.

[00:41:51] [SPEAKER_01]: And so Richard Allen is interviewed.

[00:41:54] [SPEAKER_01]: And he said he did see the three girls.

[00:41:56] [SPEAKER_01]: He admitted he owned a gun.

[00:41:59] [SPEAKER_01]: And it ended up being the gun that the bullet that was recovered was cycled through.

[00:42:07] [SPEAKER_01]: And he indicated –

[00:42:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, the Carhartt jacket.

[00:42:10] [SPEAKER_01]: That he owned the same jacket.

[00:42:11] [SPEAKER_01]: And he had no explanation for any of this.

[00:42:15] [SPEAKER_01]: And so he was arrested.

[00:42:18] [SPEAKER_03]: And in terms of – you know, McClellan indicated to the jury this could have all ended here and that would be the case.

[00:42:28] [SPEAKER_03]: But instead, over the course of his incarceration, he's spoken at length and in detail about the murders, including, quote, how he did it, why he did it, and these – I'm trying to read my own handwriting.

[00:42:44] [SPEAKER_01]: And that he had details that only the killer would know.

[00:42:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Yep.

[00:42:48] [SPEAKER_01]: And that he made these confessions and these incriminating statements not to people who were interrogating him under bright lights, but to family members he loves.

[00:42:57] [SPEAKER_03]: So the thing that really jumped out to me here was the quote, details only the killer would know.

[00:43:04] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.

[00:43:07] [SPEAKER_03]: Because whatever sort of mental health argument could be made, which I am frankly sympathetic to with – you know, with what we know about things like solitary confinement, right?

[00:43:18] [SPEAKER_03]: Like we know that this is very harmful to human beings, right?

[00:43:23] [SPEAKER_03]: And you can absolutely point to those examples.

[00:43:26] [SPEAKER_03]: And so if you just have someone saying, I'm guilty, I'm bad, I did it, I'm sorry.

[00:43:31] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, I don't know.

[00:43:33] [SPEAKER_03]: Maybe at a certain point that's interesting, but maybe it's just somebody who's just losing it.

[00:43:41] [SPEAKER_03]: But if there's details only a killer would know, and that's kind of what's been alluded to in the past, that is a sticking point.

[00:43:48] [SPEAKER_03]: Because there's no amount of issues that are going to plant accurate details of a crime scene.

[00:43:54] [SPEAKER_03]: And this – I mean, if it's details only the killer would know, I presume, and perhaps I'm wrong, and maybe the defense can exploit this if this isn't the case.

[00:44:05] [SPEAKER_03]: But I imagine that's more than like they were killed with a knife.

[00:44:09] [SPEAKER_03]: That sounds like something very – or some things that are very specific here.

[00:44:14] [SPEAKER_01]: McClellan said that Richard Allen used his gun to gain power over the girls.

[00:44:20] [SPEAKER_01]: He forced them down the hill so he could have his way with them, but he was interrupted.

[00:44:27] [SPEAKER_01]: And then he had what I thought was a very effective line.

[00:44:29] [SPEAKER_01]: He said the last face that Abby and Libby saw before their throats were slit was the face of Richard Allen.

[00:44:39] [SPEAKER_03]: That was very powerful.

[00:44:41] [SPEAKER_03]: So here's what I think about the opening, what it says about where things are going with this.

[00:44:47] [SPEAKER_03]: First of all, I thought McClellan did a good job.

[00:44:50] [SPEAKER_03]: Technological issues in the beginning notwithstanding, he told a story.

[00:44:54] [SPEAKER_03]: He told a narrative.

[00:44:56] [SPEAKER_03]: I felt it flowed well.

[00:44:57] [SPEAKER_03]: It made sense.

[00:44:59] [SPEAKER_03]: It was easy to follow.

[00:45:01] [SPEAKER_03]: And I felt like when I was watching the jury, they seemed interested.

[00:45:05] [SPEAKER_03]: They were engaged.

[00:45:07] [SPEAKER_03]: And so I felt like he did a good job.

[00:45:09] [SPEAKER_03]: It was well written.

[00:45:10] [SPEAKER_03]: It was well executed.

[00:45:11] [SPEAKER_03]: What I'm seeing in this is that the state's duty here and their goal is going to be, first of all, prove bridge guy is the killer and prove Richard Allen is bridge guy.

[00:45:25] [SPEAKER_03]: Okay.

[00:45:26] [SPEAKER_03]: They're not going to be having any of these witnesses say, hey, I saw Richard Allen.

[00:45:29] [SPEAKER_03]: Obviously, if that was the case, the case would have been solved years ago.

[00:45:34] [SPEAKER_03]: But this is a situation where it's like we're going to build a raft to get to one island and then we're going to the next island.

[00:45:41] [SPEAKER_03]: And if they can do that, they will convict him.

[00:45:45] [SPEAKER_03]: If they can't, you will be acquitted.

[00:45:48] [SPEAKER_03]: Or I guess, I don't know, maybe there'll be a mistrial.

[00:45:50] [SPEAKER_03]: Who knows?

[00:45:52] [SPEAKER_03]: Is that kind of your sense?

[00:45:53] [SPEAKER_03]: That we're not having direct like, you know, Sarah Carbaugh and Betsy Blair saying it's Richard Allen.

[00:45:59] [SPEAKER_03]: That's who I saw.

[00:45:59] [SPEAKER_03]: They were saying bridge guy is who I saw.

[00:46:03] [SPEAKER_03]: And frankly, the fact that all those witnesses, despite the totally different sketches, are saying, no, my sketch is bridge guy.

[00:46:10] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, that's that's actually a pretty big boon for the prosecution, in my view, because everyone can agree on the video.

[00:46:16] [SPEAKER_03]: And I think that's more compelling for the jury than just people being like, well, I saw this guy.

[00:46:20] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know if it's the same dude.

[00:46:23] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I think that's what we're seeing.

[00:46:24] [SPEAKER_03]: We're seeing kind of like these kind of this step by step process.

[00:46:27] [SPEAKER_03]: And this is always going to be a case where it's more about stacking up things against Allen.

[00:46:32] [SPEAKER_03]: Then they obviously don't have the big blockbuster DNA.

[00:46:35] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, it doesn't sound like they found the murder weapon.

[00:46:38] [SPEAKER_03]: But this would be, you know, a lot of cases are one not on that, but they are one on the sort of stacking of evidence that makes it so the jury.

[00:46:47] [SPEAKER_03]: Sort of like I can't escape it.

[00:46:48] [SPEAKER_03]: He's guilty.

[00:46:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Let's talk about Baldwin's opening statement.

[00:46:54] [SPEAKER_03]: Now, Baldwin, Andrew Baldwin, one of the defense attorneys, he's known to to definitely, you know, opening statements are his thing.

[00:47:04] [SPEAKER_03]: So we were not surprised that he was the one executing that in this in this group.

[00:47:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, he said very early.

[00:47:15] [SPEAKER_01]: He said Richard Allen is innocent.

[00:47:17] [SPEAKER_01]: But, you know, folks, even when you're innocent, there may be reason to doubt.

[00:47:21] [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm not sure that was the strongest way to begin that, you know, this guy is innocent.

[00:47:26] [SPEAKER_01]: But, you know, you might think he's guilty.

[00:47:27] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm going to just be blunt.

[00:47:29] [SPEAKER_03]: I was disappointed.

[00:47:31] [SPEAKER_03]: Maybe I had too high expectations.

[00:47:34] [SPEAKER_03]: I was disappointed stylistically, though, as well as content.

[00:47:39] [SPEAKER_03]: I actually thought in terms of content, he made some really good points.

[00:47:42] [SPEAKER_03]: It seemed like there were some really good raw material here that could have been spun into something that was a little bit more compelling.

[00:47:52] [SPEAKER_03]: I felt like we got a grocery list instead of a meal.

[00:47:56] [SPEAKER_01]: One thing that was really good about McClellan's was he had a story, a very clear story.

[00:48:02] [SPEAKER_01]: And Baldwin, we discussed his opening statement, but he never explicitly lays out what the defense theory of the case is.

[00:48:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Now, he doesn't need to, but it's clear they do have a theory of the case that they're going to work on.

[00:48:17] [SPEAKER_03]: You had a fun way of putting it.

[00:48:18] [SPEAKER_01]: And I don't know if it's a fun way of putting it, but there are bits.

[00:48:22] [SPEAKER_01]: We've gotten hints of this from the three-day hearing, and there are indications of it in some of the questions he asked witnesses today.

[00:48:31] [SPEAKER_01]: And so this is my best guess as to what their theory is.

[00:48:38] [SPEAKER_01]: It may or may not be totally correct.

[00:48:40] [SPEAKER_01]: I may be off.

[00:48:41] [SPEAKER_01]: But this is based on what I've heard in other pretrial hearings and what I've heard today.

[00:48:47] [SPEAKER_01]: So I believe that they want to argue that Libby and Abby were ordered down the hill by an unknown assailant and that when they got down the hill, they were ordered into a vehicle.

[00:49:06] [SPEAKER_01]: And their claim is that when a phone is in the vehicle, it doesn't track movement.

[00:49:12] [SPEAKER_01]: They said that over the summer.

[00:49:14] [SPEAKER_01]: And so that's why the phone didn't track movement.

[00:49:17] [SPEAKER_01]: They are then taken to an unknown location for unknown reasons.

[00:49:23] [SPEAKER_01]: But then they are returned to the exact spot where they were kidnapped, even though ostensibly there are searches going on.

[00:49:36] [SPEAKER_01]: In fact, they try to claim that there are a lot of searches going on.

[00:49:39] [SPEAKER_01]: But for some reason in this theory, the killers decide to return Abby and Libby to the spot where they are being searched for.

[00:49:50] [SPEAKER_01]: And either they have already been murdered at this point or they are about to be murdered.

[00:49:55] [SPEAKER_03]: I think their theory has to be that they're murdered in the woods because the blood at the scene.

[00:50:01] [SPEAKER_01]: So the first thing they do is they take Libby's phone, which presumably has been with her all this time or with them.

[00:50:09] [SPEAKER_01]: They turn it on and then they toss it outside and then they kill the girls so that one of them falls on top of the phone.

[00:50:19] [SPEAKER_01]: And then they speed off content in the knowledge they've committed the perfect crime.

[00:50:23] [SPEAKER_01]: And so if you believe that, then you would believe that the state's timeline is wrong.

[00:50:30] [SPEAKER_01]: And maybe Richard Allen doesn't have an alibi for the afternoon when the state says the crime was committed.

[00:50:36] [SPEAKER_01]: But he does allegedly have an alibi for the middle of the night when the defense says the crime was committed.

[00:50:44] [SPEAKER_01]: And I don't know if they're going to go into this.

[00:50:47] [SPEAKER_01]: This is more speculation.

[00:50:48] [SPEAKER_01]: But over the years, there have been claims that there was a scream in the middle of the night.

[00:50:54] [SPEAKER_01]: So perhaps their argument would be that that was the girls.

[00:50:59] [SPEAKER_01]: So I think that's what they're going to go after.

[00:51:02] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think they're going to argue that the Indiana State Police would have figured all that out if only they had let the phone experts at the FBI analyze Libby's phone.

[00:51:13] [SPEAKER_01]: So they don't spell all this out.

[00:51:15] [SPEAKER_01]: But I think that's what they're going for.

[00:51:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Is that your impression?

[00:51:18] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:51:19] [SPEAKER_03]: And like, listen, their job is just to raise reasonable doubt, right?

[00:51:22] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, ultimately, no matter how as far as they're concerned, no matter how they get to that destination, it doesn't matter.

[00:51:29] [SPEAKER_03]: That's their job.

[00:51:31] [SPEAKER_03]: And if they can kind of raise enough of that, then they win.

[00:51:40] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm just going to say we don't know.

[00:51:42] [SPEAKER_03]: I agree with your interpretation.

[00:51:44] [SPEAKER_03]: That does seem to fit what they're alluding to.

[00:51:47] [SPEAKER_03]: If that is what they're going for, taking it out of a legal context just as a logical exercise, that just sounds kind of stupid.

[00:51:56] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't understand why.

[00:51:58] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't feel like that's realistic.

[00:52:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Why you would return them to the exact place where they were kidnapped in order to kill them.

[00:52:04] [SPEAKER_03]: And also, are there any marks on them that would indicate that they were abducted and held for an extended period of time?

[00:52:11] [SPEAKER_03]: Like, it just, I just find that really hard to believe.

[00:52:14] [SPEAKER_03]: And also, people are just driving around on these, like, alleged, you know, these service roads, access roads, while searches are going on, but no one's hearing or noticing, like, a car in the woods.

[00:52:23] [SPEAKER_03]: Like, I just, that just sounds a lot less realistic than, like, what the state is saying, which is that one guy wanted to sexually assault these two kids, got interrupted and freaked out.

[00:52:37] [SPEAKER_03]: Like, I'm not saying I'm like, that has to be it.

[00:52:40] [SPEAKER_03]: I think, you know, you could raise reasonable doubt about that.

[00:52:43] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't, I don't feel like, I don't feel like that's impossible.

[00:52:46] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm just saying that the whole, like, extended abduction seems to be very thin and have very little evidence pointing toward it.

[00:52:54] [SPEAKER_03]: At least, so that we've heard so far, maybe they've got some good stuff and they're going to unroll it and it's going to sound really convincing and come all together.

[00:53:01] [SPEAKER_03]: But that's the kind of thing where I'm like, that just sounds like nonsense.

[00:53:05] [SPEAKER_03]: And so you're going to have to have some, I think, good evidence to really indicate.

[00:53:08] [SPEAKER_01]: So, as I said, he starts by saying Richard Allen is innocent, but even when you're innocent, there may be really good reason to doubt.

[00:53:15] [SPEAKER_01]: And so I think at that point, if I were a juror, what I would like to have heard there is, tell me why this guy is innocent.

[00:53:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Tell me what you got.

[00:53:23] [SPEAKER_01]: But instead, he starts complaining about the investigation.

[00:53:27] [SPEAKER_01]: He said the investigation was messed up early on.

[00:53:31] [SPEAKER_01]: It was messed up in the beginning, middle, and it was even messed up in the last few days.

[00:53:37] [SPEAKER_01]: And he talks about how, what I referred to earlier, about Mullen's erasure of those interviews.

[00:53:45] [SPEAKER_03]: I guess, why was he allowed to bring those up?

[00:53:48] [SPEAKER_03]: Because aren't those about, I guess they must be about more than Brad Holder because they said they erased a couple of days with their interviews.

[00:53:54] [SPEAKER_03]: So it made sense to bring it up because you're just saying, hey, look how sloppy the police are, which I think they deserve to get knocked for that.

[00:54:00] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, it's a pretty embarrassing issue, although it sounds like stuff like that can happen.

[00:54:05] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know.

[00:54:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Then he says in the middle of the investigation, the Indiana State Police kicked out the FBI.

[00:54:11] [SPEAKER_01]: And he said the FBI had digital forensic people who could have given the phone a much better analysis.

[00:54:19] [SPEAKER_01]: But he doesn't explain what they would have found.

[00:54:21] [SPEAKER_01]: I think I told you what I think he was getting at.

[00:54:23] [SPEAKER_03]: I agree with you, yeah.

[00:54:24] [SPEAKER_01]: And then he's talking about the last two days where he says law enforcement was scrambling.

[00:54:30] [SPEAKER_01]: And this is a call back to a couple of days ago, the second day of jury selection, where he revealed that there was a hair in Abby's hand that was not Richard Allen's.

[00:54:45] [SPEAKER_03]: We learn more about that.

[00:54:47] [SPEAKER_01]: We learn that it was a female hair.

[00:54:49] [SPEAKER_03]: Which frankly immediately makes it significantly less interesting to me.

[00:54:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, she was wearing, as we've just mentioned, Libby's sweatshirt.

[00:54:58] [SPEAKER_01]: And a sweatshirt quite likely may have had some of Libby's hair, maybe Libby's sister's hair, maybe Becky Patty's hair.

[00:55:07] [SPEAKER_01]: So apparently in the last couple of days, law enforcement has called in Becky Patty and Kelsey to give DNA samples.

[00:55:18] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I mean, I guess I'm just curious, like, they made a big deal of that.

[00:55:22] [SPEAKER_03]: Like, is it scrambling?

[00:55:24] [SPEAKER_03]: Is it doing their due diligence?

[00:55:26] [SPEAKER_03]: What do we, like, what do we think?

[00:55:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, what I think is unfortunate about it is for many people since the defense came onto this case, they have developed a reputation for writing big checks.

[00:55:43] [SPEAKER_03]: That's my problem.

[00:55:44] [SPEAKER_03]: Some of this stuff, maybe early on, I would have been like, ooh, wow, let's check it out.

[00:55:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, no, but the thing is, people who follow the case are aware of that.

[00:55:53] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think for a lot of people, the defense has lost credibility.

[00:55:57] [SPEAKER_01]: But the jurors don't have that background.

[00:56:00] [SPEAKER_01]: No, they don't.

[00:56:01] [SPEAKER_01]: So I think it's a bad idea to start out with an extravagant claim that you then have to kind of back off a couple of days later.

[00:56:09] [SPEAKER_03]: If they wrote checks that they cannot cash in this opening, then that is a huge own goal.

[00:56:14] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean—

[00:56:15] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, they wrote a check about the hair in the jury selection.

[00:56:18] [SPEAKER_03]: That's true.

[00:56:18] [SPEAKER_03]: That's what I'm saying.

[00:56:19] [SPEAKER_03]: They did write a check about the—they acted—

[00:56:21] [SPEAKER_01]: They shouldn't have brought up the hair unless they had more information about it.

[00:56:26] [SPEAKER_01]: So for a juror, they see the defense team bring up the hair and then two days later find out, well, it really doesn't seem to be worth anything.

[00:56:34] [SPEAKER_01]: But you know what?

[00:56:35] [SPEAKER_01]: The fact that it's not worth anything, that's the prosecution's fault.

[00:56:38] [SPEAKER_03]: Let me just tell you, the way they talked about the hair in those four deer sessions, you would have thought that, like, Abby had in her fist a clump of hair that, like, maybe was from a male unknown possible offender.

[00:56:52] [SPEAKER_03]: Like, this was some death struggle.

[00:56:56] [SPEAKER_03]: That was the image I think they purposely conjured and what really excited people.

[00:57:02] [SPEAKER_03]: And to have it turn out to be, like, a female, like, that's probably from Libby's family.

[00:57:10] [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, because it's her sweater.

[00:57:11] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, that is a check that bounced.

[00:57:15] [SPEAKER_03]: And the jury heard it.

[00:57:17] [SPEAKER_03]: I didn't even think about that.

[00:57:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so they're already starting to do what they did with the rest of us a couple years ago.

[00:57:23] [SPEAKER_03]: That's unfortunate.

[00:57:24] [SPEAKER_03]: That's not—that's just—why would they—why do they do this?

[00:57:30] [SPEAKER_01]: And then he talks about how the truth of the case can come out in the phone data, which doesn't lie.

[00:57:36] [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, hard data.

[00:57:38] [SPEAKER_03]: Hard data.

[00:57:39] [SPEAKER_03]: Everything was hard data with the phones.

[00:57:40] [SPEAKER_03]: He's constantly holding up the phone for the jury.

[00:57:43] [SPEAKER_03]: Very into the phone.

[00:57:44] [SPEAKER_01]: I think it would have been helpful for the jury if he explained what exactly the data from the phone, what he thought it would show.

[00:57:52] [SPEAKER_01]: And then he said, well, here is the state's theory.

[00:57:56] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think people would have loved to have heard the defense's theory.

[00:58:00] [SPEAKER_01]: But he says the state's theory is that Abby and Libby were, in his words, on the ground by 4 p.m. at the latest.

[00:58:09] [SPEAKER_01]: And they will say that the phone was under Abby's body that whole time.

[00:58:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Their theory is that the phone and the bodies never moved.

[00:58:17] [SPEAKER_01]: So I guess just as I indicate, the defense's theory must be that they were moved.

[00:58:23] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, didn't they indicate that the defense's theory centers upon Libby getting a bunch of texts at 4 a.m.?

[00:58:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:58:31] [SPEAKER_03]: Was that in this portion?

[00:58:32] [SPEAKER_01]: I think that was in the three-day thing, right?

[00:58:35] [SPEAKER_03]: No.

[00:58:36] [SPEAKER_03]: I thought they talked about there was like a bunch of texts that came in at one point.

[00:58:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Wasn't that brought up in the three-day hearing?

[00:58:42] [SPEAKER_03]: It was brought up in the three-day hearing, but I'm saying they brought it up today as well.

[00:58:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh.

[00:58:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I'll see if it pops up in my notes.

[00:58:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[00:58:48] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I could just throw it out there now because it's relevant.

[00:58:51] [SPEAKER_03]: So I think at one point they talked about how somebody must have turned on the phone because she got a bunch of texts, and that's the only way that can happen.

[00:58:59] [SPEAKER_03]: Because like human hands touched her phone, and that's why.

[00:59:03] [SPEAKER_03]: And when we've talked to people, and listen, we're no tech experts, so I'll be really curious to hear what their experts have to say on both sides.

[00:59:09] [SPEAKER_03]: But how it was explained to us is that there can be a number of different reasons why what they're describing could happen, including someone turning on a phone, but also including other possibilities that don't require the killer to return to the crime scene in order to do this and then kill these kids.

[00:59:28] [SPEAKER_03]: So like if they're right and there's like only one explanation, then that could be reasonable.

[00:59:33] [SPEAKER_03]: If what we're hearing is correct, which is that actually the several different things that could be happening here, then frankly, again, it's another bounce check.

[00:59:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Baldwin said that they say that Richard Allen parked the CPS lot, and they even say that he drove there from a different way that he usually took.

[00:59:58] [SPEAKER_01]: And I don't know about you.

[01:00:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Where did your mind go?

[01:00:01] [SPEAKER_01]: I know where my mind went when he said that.

[01:00:03] [SPEAKER_03]: My mind went to if you're doing if you plan to do a crime, you might do some different things and try to conceal your vehicle.

[01:00:10] [SPEAKER_03]: And in the probable cause affidavit, I remember it was specifically mentioned that the car of the alleged perpetrator was parked in such a way to sort of disguise its license plate and things like that and be a bit hidden.

[01:00:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, my mind went to the fact that maybe he was driving there potentially from a different route because he was starting from a different place.

[01:00:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe he wasn't driving from home.

[01:00:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Michael Osbrook, another person who works closely with the defense team.

[01:00:42] [SPEAKER_01]: He has said on his Twitter feed that that day earlier, Richard Allen was not at home, but that he was visiting his mother in Peru, Indiana.

[01:00:55] [SPEAKER_03]: Back to Peru.

[01:00:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Back to Peru.

[01:00:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Baldwin says that the state will say that Richard Allen left around 4 p.m.

[01:01:04] [SPEAKER_01]: and that the killer never returned to the crime scene.

[01:01:08] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that seems more likely.

[01:01:10] [SPEAKER_01]: And the defense says Richard Allen was never on the trail at the same time as the girls and that the girl witnesses were mistaken and he was actually gone by 1.30 before the Abby and Libby arrived.

[01:01:27] [SPEAKER_01]: His car was gone from the CPS lot by 2.15 p.m.

[01:01:31] [SPEAKER_01]: They say and that Betty Blair, Betty Blair describes a car in the lot that they believe does not fit the description of Richard Allen's car.

[01:01:44] [SPEAKER_01]: And Baldwin said that to him is reasonable doubt.

[01:01:48] [SPEAKER_03]: Can I just say something what I wanted from this?

[01:01:52] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[01:01:53] [SPEAKER_03]: I was underwhelmed with Baldwin's performance here.

[01:01:56] [SPEAKER_03]: Honestly, I was a bit disappointed because, again, we were, you know, told that opening statements were really important to him.

[01:02:01] [SPEAKER_03]: And I think this had some really good elements.

[01:02:04] [SPEAKER_03]: I think they could have done some stuff with it.

[01:02:05] [SPEAKER_03]: I just didn't think it actually came together.

[01:02:08] [SPEAKER_03]: It just it it was like it bounced all over the place.

[01:02:11] [SPEAKER_03]: And it just what it here's what I wanted.

[01:02:13] [SPEAKER_03]: And I think they could have started with this and then maybe gone into more of what they ultimately did, which is kind of bounce around between fact to fact.

[01:02:20] [SPEAKER_03]: But it's sort of like, have you ever heard someone tell a story and they assume a lot of knowledge on your part?

[01:02:25] [SPEAKER_03]: And like, oh, yeah, Deborah said this.

[01:02:27] [SPEAKER_03]: Who the heck is Deborah?

[01:02:28] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know who you're talking about.

[01:02:29] [SPEAKER_03]: Like, you know what I mean?

[01:02:30] [SPEAKER_03]: Like, it was like that, you know, like.

[01:02:32] [SPEAKER_03]: So one thing that would have been nice, and this is something that's been lacking from their defense from the jump, is let's talk about Richard Allen.

[01:02:41] [SPEAKER_03]: Let's talk about the man at the center of this, the man that we are supposed to believe is innocent, the man that we maybe want the jury to care about if we think that we might get towards it in acquittal.

[01:02:53] [SPEAKER_03]: Who is this man?

[01:02:54] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, tell us about his life.

[01:02:56] [SPEAKER_03]: Tell us about his marriage.

[01:02:58] [SPEAKER_03]: Tell us about what he was doing that week, that month, that year.

[01:03:01] [SPEAKER_03]: How was he doing?

[01:03:02] [SPEAKER_03]: What struggles did he go through?

[01:03:04] [SPEAKER_03]: We've heard that he's had, you know, depression, anxiety.

[01:03:07] [SPEAKER_03]: What struggles has he gone through?

[01:03:09] [SPEAKER_03]: What has this done to his life?

[01:03:11] [SPEAKER_03]: Like, I'm not.

[01:03:13] [SPEAKER_03]: Give us like a character almost to care about from the jury's perspective.

[01:03:17] [SPEAKER_03]: I think that would have been helpful.

[01:03:20] [SPEAKER_03]: If some of this, I mean, if some of this fancy lawring is a bit about storytelling, I think your opening statement's a great opportunity to do that.

[01:03:26] [SPEAKER_03]: Set the stakes.

[01:03:28] [SPEAKER_03]: And then maybe go into some of the, you know, kind of forward looking things, although I think they could have still organized that better.

[01:03:34] [SPEAKER_03]: But what about Richard Allen?

[01:03:36] [SPEAKER_03]: Is there anything like like here's what I always thought of.

[01:03:39] [SPEAKER_03]: Like he obviously doesn't have an alibi because I think we would have heard that by now.

[01:03:43] [SPEAKER_03]: But let's say he doesn't have an alibi.

[01:03:46] [SPEAKER_03]: If he was, you know, on a nice dinner with his wife like an hour after the crime was alleged to have happened, wouldn't that be something to mention?

[01:03:55] [SPEAKER_03]: Like could a man really have this nice dinner and be totally normal?

[01:04:01] [SPEAKER_03]: Like, you know what I mean?

[01:04:02] [SPEAKER_03]: Like, don't you want something a little bit like who are we talking about?

[01:04:08] [SPEAKER_03]: I feel like we don't know Richard Allen and they just vaguely allude to like, oh, he was fragile going into prison.

[01:04:13] [SPEAKER_03]: He's had such a bad time in prison.

[01:04:15] [SPEAKER_03]: But like it would be nice to know the context of that because I think that also could help the jury say, oh, wow, like here were his struggles.

[01:04:23] [SPEAKER_03]: Maybe he was really susceptible to like then, you know, doing wrongful confessions.

[01:04:27] [SPEAKER_03]: Like, dude, does that make sense?

[01:04:29] [SPEAKER_03]: Am I just rambling?

[01:04:29] [SPEAKER_03]: I feel like I'm just I'm so tired.

[01:04:32] [SPEAKER_01]: So to get back to Baldwin's statement, he then described the abduction with bridge guy appearing on the video.

[01:04:42] [SPEAKER_01]: And according to Baldwin, when you watch the video, you cannot even be sure that it is bridge guy muttering the words down the hill.

[01:04:49] [SPEAKER_01]: And he says that the girls exited the bridge near the path that goes down the hill.

[01:04:56] [SPEAKER_01]: And he says it takes you down to an access road and the state cannot disprove there was people in a vehicle down there.

[01:05:04] [SPEAKER_01]: So, again, that goes to their theory.

[01:05:07] [SPEAKER_01]: And then you're right.

[01:05:08] [SPEAKER_01]: As I'm looking in my notes, he does.

[01:05:09] [SPEAKER_01]: He did talk at this point about Libby's phone receiving a bunch of messages for 33.8.

[01:05:18] [SPEAKER_03]: Kind of seemed to bounce around a lot.

[01:05:20] [SPEAKER_03]: I think that was a problem.

[01:05:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[01:05:23] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, build up to something.

[01:05:25] [SPEAKER_03]: Build up to the phone.

[01:05:26] [SPEAKER_03]: Hint at the phone and then like ramp up to that at the end.

[01:05:33] [SPEAKER_03]: They talk about this was a good point.

[01:05:35] [SPEAKER_03]: They talk about like the vehicle that some of the witnesses said they saw looks really different from the car he had.

[01:05:40] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, that seems like something pretty reasonable to bring up.

[01:05:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[01:05:44] [SPEAKER_03]: But again, kind of just like in there randomly.

[01:05:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, and also, I think he must have sensed that this state started getting really defensive with the jury.

[01:05:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[01:05:55] [SPEAKER_01]: The statement went on much longer than Nick McClellan's.

[01:05:58] [SPEAKER_01]: And he kept on saying, well, I'm going as quickly as I can.

[01:06:01] [SPEAKER_03]: Like, I know you guys probably want to go to the bathroom.

[01:06:03] [SPEAKER_03]: Didn't he say that at one point?

[01:06:04] [SPEAKER_03]: Like, wasn't there something like, I know you guys probably want to like like it's like just give your statement.

[01:06:08] [SPEAKER_03]: Like, I know, like he seemed nervous.

[01:06:10] [SPEAKER_03]: And I get that.

[01:06:12] [SPEAKER_03]: It's a really important case for him.

[01:06:15] [SPEAKER_03]: All the attorneys have put in a lot of work on this.

[01:06:18] [SPEAKER_03]: Obviously, they're all going to be nervous.

[01:06:19] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm sympathetic to that.

[01:06:21] [SPEAKER_03]: He just he had such a good flow with the jury during voir dire.

[01:06:25] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't really feel like we saw that.

[01:06:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Did you want to say anything else about his opening statement?

[01:06:34] [SPEAKER_01]: You wanted to mention the part of the end where he ventured into argument.

[01:06:38] [SPEAKER_03]: At some point, he was I don't really know what he did wrong here.

[01:06:43] [SPEAKER_03]: And I guess like.

[01:06:45] [SPEAKER_03]: Like, I'd be curious from your perspective, like why she at one point, Judge Gull snapped at him saying, you know, you're you're you're getting very dangerously close to arguing.

[01:06:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, what he said was, when you look at the crime scene pictures, you will see that there are sticks on the girls.

[01:06:57] [SPEAKER_01]: You really think those were just there to cover them?

[01:07:01] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, OK.

[01:07:02] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[01:07:03] [SPEAKER_01]: He's arguing.

[01:07:04] [SPEAKER_03]: So he's arguing and, you know, he he didn't really fight that.

[01:07:06] [SPEAKER_03]: I was kind of like, yeah.

[01:07:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Then we had a 15 minute break.

[01:07:10] [SPEAKER_01]: We already told you about that.

[01:07:12] [SPEAKER_01]: And then it was time for the first.

[01:07:14] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, at one point, I will say this with with Baldwin.

[01:07:17] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, he's more of the emotional one in the defense group.

[01:07:20] [SPEAKER_03]: He started choking up talking about how awful some videos they're going to show you about Richard Allen and his awful cell was.

[01:07:29] [SPEAKER_03]: And I felt like maybe something like that could have been started with and then describing his life before and after prison.

[01:07:36] [SPEAKER_03]: And that might have pointed a more stark relief of what they were trying to get out with some of the mental health issues at play.

[01:07:42] [SPEAKER_01]: You're such an editor.

[01:07:43] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm sorry.

[01:07:44] [SPEAKER_03]: I am an editor.

[01:07:45] [SPEAKER_03]: And you know what?

[01:07:45] [SPEAKER_03]: Like, I mean, I think my idea is pretty good.

[01:07:49] [SPEAKER_03]: But that's just me.

[01:07:50] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm not a lawyer.

[01:07:51] [SPEAKER_03]: That's why they don't pay me the big bucks.

[01:07:53] [SPEAKER_03]: But I mean, I don't know.

[01:07:54] [SPEAKER_03]: What do you think?

[01:07:55] [SPEAKER_03]: Am I just being a style over substance editor as usual?

[01:08:00] [SPEAKER_03]: Or am I am I hitting on something because I I know it's like style and it's not substance.

[01:08:05] [SPEAKER_03]: But like you do need to give people something to follow.

[01:08:08] [SPEAKER_01]: I would I would have liked to have seen a story like Nick McClellan told the story.

[01:08:12] [SPEAKER_03]: Yes.

[01:08:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Show you to the first witness.

[01:08:14] [SPEAKER_03]: Let's go to the first witness.

[01:08:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Prosecution in the form of Stacey Diener called Becky Patty.

[01:08:22] [SPEAKER_03]: Yes.

[01:08:23] [SPEAKER_03]: This, of course, is Liberty German's grandmother and guardian.

[01:08:28] [SPEAKER_03]: Becky and her husband, Mike Patty, essentially raised Libby and her older sister, Kelsey Siebert, who back then was Kelsey German.

[01:08:36] [SPEAKER_03]: She's since married.

[01:08:40] [SPEAKER_03]: And this was very emotional.

[01:08:42] [SPEAKER_03]: And it was it was I thought, you know, Becky was a very strong, incredible witness on the stand.

[01:08:50] [SPEAKER_03]: I think all the family witnesses today did a did a good job and, you know, were very powerful figures in the courtroom.

[01:08:57] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, like the anguish was palpable.

[01:08:59] [SPEAKER_03]: And I just.

[01:09:02] [SPEAKER_03]: It was it was just it was very sad.

[01:09:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[01:09:05] [SPEAKER_01]: She talked about how in their household there was Becky.

[01:09:08] [SPEAKER_01]: There was her husband, Mike.

[01:09:09] [SPEAKER_01]: There was Kelsey.

[01:09:11] [SPEAKER_01]: There was Libby.

[01:09:12] [SPEAKER_01]: There was Kelsey and Libby's father, Derek, and Becky's other son, Cody.

[01:09:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Libby and Becky has a home appraisal business, which she runs out of her garage.

[01:09:24] [SPEAKER_01]: She got a chance to talk about Libby and what kind of a girl, what kind of a person Libby was.

[01:09:32] [SPEAKER_01]: All too often, I feel these girls get lost in the background of Odinism and all this other stuff.

[01:09:39] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[01:09:39] [SPEAKER_03]: This is one that stuck out.

[01:09:41] [SPEAKER_03]: Quote, Libby was very active and very, very smart.

[01:09:43] [SPEAKER_03]: She went on to talk about how Libby was taking so many accelerated classes and she was actually on track to graduate a year early.

[01:09:51] [SPEAKER_03]: She was involved in volleyball, swimming, soccer.

[01:09:55] [SPEAKER_03]: I think.

[01:09:55] [SPEAKER_03]: Did I hear math bowl as well?

[01:09:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[01:09:58] [SPEAKER_01]: She said Libby was in sports year round.

[01:10:01] [SPEAKER_01]: She was.

[01:10:03] [SPEAKER_01]: She's also had lots of friends.

[01:10:04] [SPEAKER_01]: She would frequently spend the night with her friends and maybe her best friend was Abigail Williams.

[01:10:11] [SPEAKER_01]: And in fact, Abigail Williams once went on a spring break trip with the Patty Germans.

[01:10:18] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[01:10:19] [SPEAKER_03]: She would spend the night there.

[01:10:20] [SPEAKER_03]: They went to Florida together.

[01:10:21] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, that was, they were very close girls.

[01:10:25] [SPEAKER_03]: Libby was close with her family and was just a really good kid, you know.

[01:10:31] [SPEAKER_03]: And that it, yeah, it was, it was really, uh, it's important.

[01:10:37] [SPEAKER_03]: It's important to hear this and it's important to remember with all the circus and whatnot who these girls were.

[01:10:45] [SPEAKER_01]: She got to the story of Monday, February 13th, 2017 for Becky.

[01:10:51] [SPEAKER_01]: It was a typical work day, but it was a day off of school for both Kelsey and Libby.

[01:10:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Abby had spent the night there before, uh, Libby asked Becky if, uh, everybody could just go out and do something.

[01:11:05] [SPEAKER_01]: And Becky explained that she was busy with her work, but she told the girls, and if you help me with the filing, I'll pay you something.

[01:11:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Then we can go out and, uh, shop later.

[01:11:17] [SPEAKER_01]: And then at some point, uh, Libby came into Becky's home office and she sat on the floor and started playing with a puppy.

[01:11:27] [SPEAKER_01]: The family had just, uh, gotten.

[01:11:31] [SPEAKER_01]: And, uh, Kelsey came in, uh, or perked ahead and said, she was going to go see her, uh, boyfriend.

[01:11:38] [SPEAKER_01]: And Libby said, Hey, wait a minute.

[01:11:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe that means, uh, you can take us down to the trails.

[01:11:44] [SPEAKER_01]: And, uh, Becky said, well, that sounds fine to me, but as long as you get a ride home.

[01:11:50] [SPEAKER_01]: So Libby contacted her father, Derek, who was out doing some work for Becky's home appraisal company.

[01:11:57] [SPEAKER_01]: And he said he would be able to, uh, pick them up.

[01:12:02] [SPEAKER_01]: And so Becky, or rather, uh, uh, Libby came in and she said goodbye to her grandmother.

[01:12:10] [SPEAKER_01]: And, uh, Becky said, please wear a jacket because it might be cold.

[01:12:17] [SPEAKER_01]: And, uh, the last words, uh, Liberty ever spoke to Becky Patty was, uh, grandma, I'll be okay.

[01:12:25] [SPEAKER_03]: And, um, Becky, um, was getting choked up at this point during talking about this, especially this kind of, like, last, um, memory of her granddaughter.

[01:12:39] [SPEAKER_03]: It's, like, these people were, like, these families have been through so much, like, like, not just what this horrible thing that's happened, but just this, again, this, like, circus that's grown out of it.

[01:12:52] [SPEAKER_03]: And it's, like, they're good people.

[01:12:54] [SPEAKER_03]: They didn't deserve this.

[01:12:55] [SPEAKER_03]: None of this should have ever happened to these kids and their families.

[01:12:59] [SPEAKER_03]: It's just, it's, I don't know.

[01:13:00] [SPEAKER_03]: It's, it was, it was, um, I mean, again, they've had these kind of, frankly, overbearing gag orders for a while.

[01:13:07] [SPEAKER_03]: It was, it was good to hear some of this stuff from, from these people who have been actually affected by this.

[01:13:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, she said Libby always had her phone with her.

[01:13:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Kelsey left with the girls around 1.30.

[01:13:19] [SPEAKER_01]: She talked, uh, more about how special Libby was.

[01:13:24] [SPEAKER_01]: She says, uh, her granddaughter was brave.

[01:13:27] [SPEAKER_01]: She wanted to try anything once.

[01:13:31] [SPEAKER_01]: She said, uh, Liberty had, of Liberty, she said, she had more reasoning powers than I did.

[01:13:38] [SPEAKER_01]: And, uh, Libby, of Libby, she said, uh, she knew she wanted to make a difference.

[01:13:45] [SPEAKER_01]: She loved crime shows.

[01:13:46] [SPEAKER_01]: And she also was interested in perhaps entering the medical field.

[01:13:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Mm-hmm.

[01:13:50] [SPEAKER_01]: She talked about how her, uh, husband, Mike Patty always tried to tell the girls to be aware of their surroundings.

[01:13:59] [SPEAKER_01]: So then at, uh, 3.30, the call comes in that changes, uh, Becky Patty's life forever.

[01:14:08] [SPEAKER_01]: It is a call from her son, Derek German, who says, uh, I'm here.

[01:14:14] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't see Libby and she's not answering her phone.

[01:14:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, and no one could reach her.

[01:14:21] [SPEAKER_01]: This had, uh, not happened before.

[01:14:24] [SPEAKER_03]: No, um, you know, Libby and Abby were considered reliable kids.

[01:14:32] [SPEAKER_03]: And, and, you know, going, going no contact like that suddenly was not normal at all.

[01:14:38] [SPEAKER_01]: She called her husband, Mike, and they started doing the things you'd expect a family in that situation.

[01:14:45] [SPEAKER_01]: They, uh, all went down to walk the trails.

[01:14:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, they drove both routes to the trails to see maybe the girls decided to walk home.

[01:14:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, Becky called AT&T to see if they would ping the phone.

[01:14:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, they went to where, uh, Kelsey had dropped the girls off.

[01:15:02] [SPEAKER_01]: It was starting to get dark and, uh, she told Mike that they really need to get the help of the police.

[01:15:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, meanwhile, Becky, she explained, had been trying to reach Abby's mother on the cell phone.

[01:15:18] [SPEAKER_01]: With no luck, she then drove to Abby's mother's house and was told that Abby's mother was at work.

[01:15:28] [SPEAKER_01]: So she went to her workplace and broke the news that wasn't sure where the girls was or, or what was, uh, going on.

[01:15:40] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[01:15:41] [SPEAKER_03]: And they, um, ended up searching.

[01:15:44] [SPEAKER_03]: At some point, Mike drove Becky home that evening, I think around midnight, she said, with the searches.

[01:15:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[01:15:52] [SPEAKER_03]: Going on.

[01:15:53] [SPEAKER_03]: And, uh, she was searching then the next day with one of the search groups.

[01:15:56] [SPEAKER_03]: They had a lot of volunteers coming out and helping.

[01:15:59] [SPEAKER_03]: Um, and, um, the way she found out was people were, I think saying like they found them, they found them.

[01:16:09] [SPEAKER_01]: We found them.

[01:16:10] [SPEAKER_01]: And Becky's reaction was, oh, you got to take me to them.

[01:16:13] [SPEAKER_01]: And, uh, she, it didn't hit her what had happened until she saw, saw a coroner's van drive by.

[01:16:22] [SPEAKER_03]: And she saw her sister crying and her sister would only, her sister had been part of a group where they knew what happened.

[01:16:30] [SPEAKER_03]: And her sister just kept saying, I'm sorry.

[01:16:34] [SPEAKER_01]: So then it was time for Andy Baldwin to cross examine Becky Patty.

[01:16:41] [SPEAKER_01]: And he asked questions like, well, would you agree that Libby was outspoken?

[01:16:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, did she stand up for herself and others?

[01:16:49] [SPEAKER_01]: If needed, could she be vocal?

[01:16:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Did she have a strong voice?

[01:16:55] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think what he was trying to get up, uh, at there was, well, if Libby was actually killed in the afternoon, why didn't she yell and scream and, uh, make noise that would have been heard by others?

[01:17:09] [SPEAKER_01]: And, uh, as you indicated, people are terrified when someone has a gun on them.

[01:17:15] [SPEAKER_01]: And then also the nature of, uh, the wounds that killed her with her throat, which obviously would have severely impacted her ability to, uh, to do that.

[01:17:26] [SPEAKER_03]: If, if someone has a gun on you and they tell you not to scream, maybe in some cases you scream anyway, cause you think you're going to die.

[01:17:34] [SPEAKER_03]: And maybe in other cases you think if I comply with whatever this is, I will live.

[01:17:42] [SPEAKER_03]: So I, I, I feel like sometimes this defense talks in absolutes.

[01:17:46] [SPEAKER_03]: Like if no one screamed, then they must've been kidnapped or maybe they just didn't scream.

[01:17:51] [SPEAKER_03]: That's really not that hard for me to imagine that scenario for them to kind of put so much weight on some sort of vague hypothetical where you can immediately see the other side is, I don't know.

[01:18:06] [SPEAKER_03]: Kind of weak.

[01:18:07] [SPEAKER_01]: And then he said on the night of the search, uh, didn't see a lot of people out searching with, or didn't see a lot of people out searching.

[01:18:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Some people saw flashlights.

[01:18:16] [SPEAKER_01]: So I don't know if he was trying to suggest there that gosh, there were so many searchers.

[01:18:21] [SPEAKER_01]: If the bodies were there, they would have been discovered.

[01:18:22] [SPEAKER_03]: That's what I thought he was trying to suggest.

[01:18:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Or is he trying to search?

[01:18:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, maybe the people who were searching, who spotted the flashlights, maybe the flashlights were of the people moving the bodies.

[01:18:31] [SPEAKER_03]: I really hope it's the first one because that is at least a little bit, I can understand.

[01:18:37] [SPEAKER_03]: And I think it's, you know, like, Hey, if a lot of people were in this area looking, why didn't they find them?

[01:18:43] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I think when you get, you're in the dark and cold and people are just kind of scrambling around, then that's actually not that surprising to me, but I can understand raising that.

[01:18:52] [SPEAKER_03]: And if you can say, Hey, they were in this area, why didn't, you know, uh, we can kind of, you know, look, look over where they were and sort of show maybe they should have found them.

[01:19:01] [SPEAKER_03]: But if it's like, Oh, maybe they, maybe the flashlights were the real killers.

[01:19:05] [SPEAKER_03]: Um, I don't know.

[01:19:07] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, maybe they have more and they'll be able to build this out.

[01:19:10] [SPEAKER_03]: That's all I'll say.

[01:19:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Next witness was Kelsey, uh, Seibert.

[01:19:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Previously.

[01:19:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Siebert.

[01:19:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Siebert.

[01:19:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Previously known as Kelsey German.

[01:19:21] [SPEAKER_01]: She also talked, uh, about her also being very close to her sister.

[01:19:28] [SPEAKER_01]: And, uh, she talks that her sister Libby was very close to Abby.

[01:19:33] [SPEAKER_03]: Yes.

[01:19:34] [SPEAKER_03]: And they, she and her sister went over the bridge together once and Libby was very brave about it.

[01:19:39] [SPEAKER_03]: Kelsey said it made her feel silly for being so scared and it's a scary bridge, you know, but, um.

[01:19:45] [SPEAKER_01]: She said it wasn't unusual for her to take them down to the trails.

[01:19:48] [SPEAKER_01]: It felt like it was a safe place.

[01:19:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, she talked about when she was in the car, taking the girls, they were talking.

[01:19:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, they took some pictures inside the car and actually posted them that day.

[01:20:02] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, uh, prosecutor Diener who did a, did a great job with all these witches.

[01:20:07] [SPEAKER_03]: She did a really great job.

[01:20:08] [SPEAKER_03]: She was, uh, thorough and sensitive and I felt like she just kind of kept things moving and getting all the relevant information that she needed to get.

[01:20:17] [SPEAKER_01]: She brought out, uh, a large, uh, map that was displayed and had Kelsey say, okay, well, here's exactly where I dropped them off.

[01:20:27] [SPEAKER_03]: Yes.

[01:20:28] [SPEAKER_01]: She dropped them off at, uh, the mirror's entrance to the trail.

[01:20:31] [SPEAKER_01]: That's right.

[01:20:32] [SPEAKER_03]: With the, the, with the mirrors farm right there.

[01:20:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[01:20:35] [SPEAKER_01]: She said it has a very small entrance slash parking area, almost like a driveway than a traditional parking lot.

[01:20:44] [SPEAKER_01]: She indicated that, you know, maybe two cars can park there.

[01:20:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, Kelsey just kind of pulled in and dropped the girls and then off and then she, uh, left.

[01:20:55] [SPEAKER_01]: There you go.

[01:20:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[01:20:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[01:20:59] [SPEAKER_01]: She, uh, it talked, uh, about, uh, her learning that the girls were missing.

[01:21:04] [SPEAKER_01]: She goes to the, uh, Monon High Bridge and she walks across the bridge with, uh, her uncle Cody.

[01:21:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[01:21:13] [SPEAKER_03]: They're calling for Libby.

[01:21:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Looking for, uh, looking for Libby.

[01:21:17] [SPEAKER_03]: And, um, yeah.

[01:21:20] [SPEAKER_01]: People have wondered, they say, uh, the search seemed to focus on one direction from the bridge instead of two directions.

[01:21:27] [SPEAKER_01]: And she said that, uh, her understanding was the search mainly focused on one direction because they were searching in the direction towards the house where Abby lived.

[01:21:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Because their theory was that if something had happened to the girls that were still able to move, they would be heading towards Abby's home, which is my understanding wasn't terribly far away.

[01:21:50] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[01:21:50] [SPEAKER_03]: So they were trying, they're like using some logic on that to be like, oh, maybe that's the most likely scenario, which makes sense when you're in that situation.

[01:21:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Then there was, there was a moment.

[01:22:00] [SPEAKER_03]: Did she go through like some weird, like they would, they had some like almost like video where they're.

[01:22:04] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm about to talk about this.

[01:22:05] [SPEAKER_03]: Okay.

[01:22:05] [SPEAKER_03]: Go ahead.

[01:22:06] [SPEAKER_01]: This is a moment that was, I think, more upsetting to me than maybe anyone else in the courtroom.

[01:22:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, they, they, they showed on this screen, uh, they had, they had Kelsey stand in front of this screen where basically this is the last walk of the girls because they showed a video.

[01:22:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Here's what it's like to be dropped off.

[01:22:29] [SPEAKER_01]: It mirrors and go on these trails and walk to the bridge.

[01:22:33] [SPEAKER_01]: And something about seeing Kelsey standing there watching this, virtually the last walk her sister ever took.

[01:22:43] [SPEAKER_01]: That was, uh, that was upsetting to me.

[01:22:46] [SPEAKER_03]: I didn't even think about it like that, but you're right.

[01:22:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, there had been some changes made to the high bridge.

[01:22:55] [SPEAKER_01]: So they had Kelsey describe how it's different from how it used to be.

[01:23:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, she.

[01:23:02] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, it was good.

[01:23:03] [SPEAKER_03]: I was glad they had, I mean, it was, that's a horrifying thought.

[01:23:05] [SPEAKER_03]: I think it's good that the jury can, it was a very detailed sort of like video, I think.

[01:23:11] [SPEAKER_03]: And I feel like that's necessary, especially since the defense withdrew their request to take the jury on a field trip to the murder site and that whole area.

[01:23:19] [SPEAKER_03]: It sounds like they have some technology that can kind of take them through some of these things that might be hard to imagine.

[01:23:27] [SPEAKER_01]: And, uh, she found out because, uh, she heard someone yell that the girls had been found.

[01:23:34] [SPEAKER_01]: And then it was Baldwin's turn to cross examine that before he began, there was kind of an odd incident in the courtroom.

[01:23:40] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, there was a pretty surprising incident.

[01:23:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Tell us about it.

[01:23:43] [SPEAKER_03]: So a member of the public seating, um, stood up and yelled that the microphone was not pointed enough toward the witness.

[01:23:56] [SPEAKER_03]: Now, um.

[01:23:58] [SPEAKER_03]: That was true.

[01:23:59] [SPEAKER_03]: That was true.

[01:24:00] [SPEAKER_03]: This, uh, now tell me if I'm right or wrong.

[01:24:05] [SPEAKER_03]: For some reason I thought like oftentimes the microphones in courthouses are more for the court reporter than the public.

[01:24:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[01:24:12] [SPEAKER_03]: So it's maybe, it's maybe not functioning in the way that people might think it is the way it looks.

[01:24:17] [SPEAKER_03]: That being said, it would be nice to hear more.

[01:24:20] [SPEAKER_03]: But at the same time, a lot of the witnesses are more soft spoken and it can be harder to hear in the back.

[01:24:25] [SPEAKER_03]: And, um, this was obviously, you know, not.

[01:24:30] [SPEAKER_01]: It was, it was an odd incident.

[01:24:31] [SPEAKER_03]: It was really odd.

[01:24:32] [SPEAKER_03]: The woman repeated it and, um, Judge Gull was very unhappy.

[01:24:38] [SPEAKER_03]: You might be surprised.

[01:24:39] [SPEAKER_03]: She, uh, no one was thrown out.

[01:24:42] [SPEAKER_03]: Um, Judge Gull just, uh, advised the person to sit down.

[01:24:48] [SPEAKER_01]: So Baldwin was cross-examination.

[01:24:51] [SPEAKER_01]: He, uh, asked, uh, Kelsey, well, were you in the courtroom when your grandmother testified?

[01:24:58] [SPEAKER_01]: And Kelsey wasn't because there was a separation of witnesses situation going on.

[01:25:02] [SPEAKER_01]: And so then, uh, once Baldwin got that answer, he asked, uh, Kelsey basically the very same questions.

[01:25:09] [SPEAKER_01]: He asked her grandmother, you know, uh, would, would we always stand up for others?

[01:25:15] [SPEAKER_01]: What did she have, uh, a loud voice?

[01:25:18] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[01:25:21] [SPEAKER_03]: And then one interesting moment came about the hair again where he, he asked her, um, you know, so this, the hair.

[01:25:32] [SPEAKER_03]: So Abby was, uh, Abby was wearing a swim sweatshirt.

[01:25:37] [SPEAKER_03]: It was like a swim team sweatshirt that belonged to Libby.

[01:25:41] [SPEAKER_03]: And he made some comment about like, isn't it odd that that was like a relatively new sweatshirt, maybe even never worn.

[01:25:47] [SPEAKER_03]: And it still had, you know, possibly your hair on it.

[01:25:51] [SPEAKER_03]: How would that even be possible?

[01:25:52] [SPEAKER_03]: We wouldn't expect that to be inside of it.

[01:25:54] [SPEAKER_03]: And, and Kelsey responded by pointing out that it was, it was still, it had been washed and that it could have been from that process that it got some hair tangled up in it.

[01:26:06] [SPEAKER_03]: Again, yeah, I was a bit disappointed with the hair.

[01:26:08] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm not surprised because I would have thought like some sort of like unidentified significant hair to me is like, if it's like someone's clutching a bloody clump of hair, then yeah, that's super relevant.

[01:26:19] [SPEAKER_03]: And like, oh my gosh, that could change everything.

[01:26:21] [SPEAKER_03]: If like a single hair is like on somebody's body, that doesn't, that, that kind of contamination would be pretty common.

[01:26:29] [SPEAKER_03]: Um, and I wouldn't, you know, if there were other things, then that could be significant.

[01:26:35] [SPEAKER_03]: But like that alone is not that much of a gotcha.

[01:26:38] [SPEAKER_03]: And I guess I was just surprised by the way they handled this because I hadn't even thought that they've already told the jury about this and they made it sound like a huge deal.

[01:26:46] [SPEAKER_03]: And now that's kind of like coming out that it's probably not.

[01:26:49] [SPEAKER_03]: And it may be, it can just be like used to beat up the cops and be like, oh, well, law enforcement scrambling.

[01:26:55] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, but like.

[01:26:58] [SPEAKER_03]: But it doesn't really sound like that big of a deal in terms of like the actual evidentiary value, because it sounds like it's just from Libby's family.

[01:27:05] [SPEAKER_03]: I wouldn't bring it up again.

[01:27:06] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know.

[01:27:07] [SPEAKER_03]: I maybe that's just me.

[01:27:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Next.

[01:27:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Anything more to say about.

[01:27:13] [SPEAKER_03]: No, I think one thing.

[01:27:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, oh, go ahead.

[01:27:16] [SPEAKER_01]: You go ahead.

[01:27:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Ladies first.

[01:27:17] [SPEAKER_03]: I wanted to say something weird.

[01:27:18] [SPEAKER_03]: So whenever they sidebar now, there's like this big, like weird white noise sound that plays in the courtroom.

[01:27:24] [SPEAKER_03]: Like we're all trying to like fall asleep or something.

[01:27:27] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, like that's like how they disguise the sidebar on the side.

[01:27:33] [SPEAKER_03]: So no one's listening.

[01:27:34] [SPEAKER_03]: And so that's always weird.

[01:27:35] [SPEAKER_03]: Like you'll be sitting there and suddenly it's like.

[01:27:38] [SPEAKER_00]: We were already tired.

[01:27:40] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[01:27:40] [SPEAKER_03]: I was like, I was literally like, OK, I'm going to fall asleep now.

[01:27:42] [SPEAKER_01]: So this won't surprise anyone who heard Becky Patti or Kelsey German speak in the days before the gag order was issued, because you all know that they are very articulate and intelligent women.

[01:28:04] [SPEAKER_01]: They did a great job.

[01:28:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[01:28:06] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think I had ever heard Liberty and Kelsey's father, Derek German, before.

[01:28:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Had you?

[01:28:17] [SPEAKER_03]: No, I don't think so.

[01:28:19] [SPEAKER_01]: He also, maybe we shouldn't be surprised.

[01:28:22] [SPEAKER_01]: He also was a very articulate man.

[01:28:24] [SPEAKER_01]: He was a very strong witness in my opinion.

[01:28:29] [SPEAKER_03]: He was.

[01:28:30] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[01:28:31] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think he testified quite as long because by this point, a lot of this had become repetitive.

[01:28:37] [SPEAKER_01]: But he talked about Libby preferred texting to phone calls.

[01:28:42] [SPEAKER_01]: He said that Libby and Abby spent a lot of time together in the spring in 2016 through 2017.

[01:28:51] [SPEAKER_01]: And he talked about February 13th.

[01:28:54] [SPEAKER_01]: He was driving to a real estate appraisal job for his mother.

[01:29:00] [SPEAKER_01]: And he got this call from Libby asking him to pick her and Abby up.

[01:29:05] [SPEAKER_01]: And he agreed to do so.

[01:29:08] [SPEAKER_01]: And when he got to the area, he called Liberty when he was a few minutes away.

[01:29:14] [SPEAKER_01]: And she did not answer the line.

[01:29:18] [SPEAKER_01]: And he called when he got there and she didn't answer.

[01:29:22] [SPEAKER_01]: And his first thing he did was he parked and he started walking the trails looking for his daughter and her best friend.

[01:29:33] [SPEAKER_01]: And he didn't cross the bridge, but there were kids on bridge.

[01:29:37] [SPEAKER_01]: They hadn't seen the girls.

[01:29:39] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[01:29:40] [SPEAKER_03]: Kids on the bridge.

[01:29:41] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[01:29:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[01:29:44] [SPEAKER_01]: And Baldwin cross examined him.

[01:29:47] [SPEAKER_01]: He's talked about, yeah, he asked about the flashlights and the searchers.

[01:29:59] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[01:30:00] [SPEAKER_03]: The searches, that's going to be a big thing for them.

[01:30:04] [SPEAKER_03]: And they're just trying to establish that sort of reasonable doubt via the idea that the girls, you know, I get the sense.

[01:30:10] [SPEAKER_03]: And this is something I understand can happen with like cold environments.

[01:30:12] [SPEAKER_03]: It sounds like based on what the defense is doing, that there's no set time of death.

[01:30:18] [SPEAKER_03]: And again, like I think that when bodies are left overnight, there's cold temperatures that can be complicated.

[01:30:28] [SPEAKER_03]: And like perhaps it would be inaccurate to say they were definitely killed at X time.

[01:30:33] [SPEAKER_03]: So that gives the defense some help because it gives them some leeway and they could say, well, listen, if we don't know they were killed in the afternoon, why couldn't they have been killed later?

[01:30:41] [SPEAKER_03]: And maybe if they were, maybe we do have an alibi for our clients.

[01:30:46] [SPEAKER_03]: So it makes sense that they're trying to kind of play with that.

[01:30:48] [SPEAKER_03]: And I mean, that could be a good strategy for them.

[01:30:52] [SPEAKER_03]: And I think that's where all the flashlights are coming in.

[01:30:55] [SPEAKER_03]: But I think, you know, that could be a good strategy that could be fruitful for them in terms of getting to reasonable doubt.

[01:31:00] [SPEAKER_03]: But at the same time, some of their ideas around like what could have happened sound kind of unrealistic to me personally.

[01:31:08] [SPEAKER_01]: You want to talk about the next witness?

[01:31:11] [SPEAKER_03]: Was the next one Anna Williams.

[01:31:15] [SPEAKER_03]: So Anna Williams is the mother of Abigail Williams.

[01:31:22] [SPEAKER_03]: And she came in to testify as well.

[01:31:29] [SPEAKER_03]: And like, I don't know, like I remember when one thing that struck me immediately was like when they had her.

[01:31:36] [SPEAKER_03]: One of Stacey Deiner's first questions was just like, you know, are you, you know, Abigail's mom?

[01:31:42] [SPEAKER_03]: And she just like the way she smiled when she said, yes, I am.

[01:31:47] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know.

[01:31:48] [SPEAKER_03]: It just broke my heart.

[01:31:50] [SPEAKER_03]: It's like she like she's just.

[01:31:53] [SPEAKER_03]: She's proud and happy to be that.

[01:31:56] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know.

[01:31:57] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm not like making sense.

[01:31:59] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm just.

[01:31:59] [SPEAKER_01]: It was also a moment.

[01:32:00] [SPEAKER_03]: It was just like there was something like it's just she really was very eloquent and it just it made me so sad.

[01:32:09] [SPEAKER_01]: There was a moment when Deiner asked Anna Williams, can you describe Abigail to someone who didn't know her?

[01:32:20] [SPEAKER_01]: And Anna just started crying.

[01:32:23] [SPEAKER_03]: That was really sad.

[01:32:25] [SPEAKER_01]: She said that Abby was funny.

[01:32:27] [SPEAKER_01]: She was smart.

[01:32:27] [SPEAKER_01]: She was quiet.

[01:32:28] [SPEAKER_01]: She was kind.

[01:32:29] [SPEAKER_01]: She was shy.

[01:32:30] [SPEAKER_01]: She was kind.

[01:32:32] [SPEAKER_03]: You could tell.

[01:32:34] [SPEAKER_03]: You could tell with all these people, with all these family members, but you could tell with Anna Williams that, you know, she really misses Abby.

[01:32:44] [SPEAKER_03]: And it was hard to, you know, it's like it's so weird because it's like this kind of at some level cold and clinical legal process for everyone.

[01:32:55] [SPEAKER_03]: But it's dealing with people's worst memories and like, you know, I don't know.

[01:33:07] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, like a heartbreak ultimately.

[01:33:09] [SPEAKER_03]: And it's just.

[01:33:12] [SPEAKER_03]: I guess it's just weird, you know, because he's like on one hand, this is all this like legal jargon and people arguing and then it's like this.

[01:33:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[01:33:22] [SPEAKER_01]: She said she and Abby were close.

[01:33:25] [SPEAKER_01]: She talked about, you know, her last moments with Abby, giving her permission to go and spend time over at the Patty family.

[01:33:39] [SPEAKER_01]: And Becky, Patty showed up at her workplace around 530.

[01:33:48] [SPEAKER_03]: I think she managed to get her on the phone right as she was arriving, right?

[01:33:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, she said that Becky, it turned out, had tried to call her at least three times before and she told her the girls were missing.

[01:33:59] [SPEAKER_01]: And Anna initially didn't think it was a big deal.

[01:34:01] [SPEAKER_01]: But of course, it turned out to be the tragedy we all know about.

[01:34:07] [SPEAKER_03]: Anna had had an experience, she'd said, where she.

[01:34:12] [SPEAKER_03]: She was supposed to drop off some money for some school thing and the girls were.

[01:34:15] [SPEAKER_03]: She was supposed to meet Abby and the girls were like watching those high school swim meet or something.

[01:34:20] [SPEAKER_03]: And so Abby didn't come out and meet her where she was supposed to.

[01:34:23] [SPEAKER_03]: And so she went home and then went back and kind of asked a few parents and then they sent Abby and Libby out to her.

[01:34:27] [SPEAKER_03]: So it was like there was like that brief moment where she was missing, but it wasn't a big deal.

[01:34:32] [SPEAKER_03]: It was like, but, you know, she talked to her about like, you know, you need to be where you say you're going to be.

[01:34:38] [SPEAKER_03]: But that, you know, obviously a pretty minor incident.

[01:34:40] [SPEAKER_03]: Not, not, not, not, not a big deal.

[01:34:42] [SPEAKER_03]: But I think, you know, that may have, she may have been thinking back to that situation.

[01:34:48] [SPEAKER_01]: And the, the cross examination by Andrew Baldwin again, describe Abby's voice.

[01:34:54] [SPEAKER_01]: What is it?

[01:34:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Did her voice get high pitched when she was excited?

[01:34:59] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, one thing I was thinking, like, do you think they have like some interesting, possibly ear witness sort of thing that they're going to kind of pull out to be like, oh, maybe.

[01:35:10] [SPEAKER_01]: I, I, I can tell you, I remember vaguely hearing crazy rumors that there was some sort of yelling going on in the middle of the night.

[01:35:19] [SPEAKER_01]: And, uh, I, there's a lot of stuff that pops up on the internet that's not true.

[01:35:28] [SPEAKER_01]: And I was never able to verify it.

[01:35:30] [SPEAKER_01]: And I never even verified it to the level where I may not even have mentioned it to you.

[01:35:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[01:35:35] [SPEAKER_01]: But, uh, that may be what it's, uh, it's referring to.

[01:35:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[01:35:38] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I was curious.

[01:35:39] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, cause I, obviously that would bolster it more, but also when, when something could be anything like yelling could be, you know, if you, like, if we, if we're sitting right here and then people are yelling outside, it could be some friends joking around.

[01:35:53] [SPEAKER_03]: People arguing with each other, you know, an abduction, like, like it could be anything.

[01:35:58] [SPEAKER_03]: So I kind of feel like that kind of thing is like, you'd want there to be a little bit more than just like we heard yelling.

[01:36:05] [SPEAKER_01]: You want to talk about the final witness of the day?

[01:36:08] [SPEAKER_03]: Yes.

[01:36:08] [SPEAKER_03]: Let me flip over to that, uh, portion of my notes.

[01:36:15] [SPEAKER_01]: I misheard his last name, but I looked at it.

[01:36:17] [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, Catron?

[01:36:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, Catron?

[01:36:21] [SPEAKER_03]: No, no, I think they pronounced it Catron.

[01:36:24] [SPEAKER_01]: I thought they were pronouncing it Katcham.

[01:36:27] [SPEAKER_01]: No.

[01:36:27] [SPEAKER_01]: But when I, I look it up on the-

[01:36:29] [SPEAKER_03]: It's Mitch Catron.

[01:36:30] [SPEAKER_01]: When I look it up on the, uh, Carroll County Sheriff's website, it is spelled C-A-T-R-O-N.

[01:36:38] [SPEAKER_03]: So I wrote it phonetically based on what they were saying because they didn't spell it.

[01:36:42] [SPEAKER_03]: And I wrote Catron.

[01:36:44] [SPEAKER_03]: Catron.

[01:36:45] [SPEAKER_03]: I wrote K-A-T-T-E-R-I-N, which is obviously wrong, but-

[01:36:49] [SPEAKER_01]: I wrote K-A-T-C-H-E-M, question mark?

[01:36:55] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, this is a deputy with the Carroll County Sheriff's office.

[01:36:58] [SPEAKER_03]: He's served with them for 12 years.

[01:37:01] [SPEAKER_03]: And, um, he was somebody who was sort of called in pretty early to deal with this disappearance of these two kids.

[01:37:09] [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, he worked the day shift, meaning his shift was like, I guess, 6 a.m. to 6 p.m.

[01:37:16] [SPEAKER_03]: And towards the end of that, he got a call.

[01:37:18] [SPEAKER_03]: He was in, he was in dispatch for, um, Carroll County Sheriff's office.

[01:37:23] [SPEAKER_03]: And he was sent out to, um, you know, look into this situation involving Abby and Libby going missing.

[01:37:32] [SPEAKER_01]: And so, oh, he went out to the property belonging to a man named Brad Weber.

[01:37:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, particularly he went down a private drive owned by Brad Weber that I believe the defense refers to as an access road.

[01:37:47] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think it's this access road or private drive that they might think that was the secret, uh, vehicle.

[01:37:55] [SPEAKER_03]: Secret vehicle used to abduct Abby and Libby in, in the defense's theory.

[01:37:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[01:38:00] [SPEAKER_01]: And so this is also not too far away from where, uh, the girl's bodies were ultimately discovered.

[01:38:08] [SPEAKER_01]: So this, uh, this, uh, sheriff's deputy went out there.

[01:38:11] [SPEAKER_01]: He went to the door and he spoke with Brad Weber and McClellan being, well, how did he seem?

[01:38:20] [SPEAKER_01]: And he said, he seemed normal.

[01:38:22] [SPEAKER_01]: And so, uh, McClellan said, oh, so he wasn't covered in blood or sweat.

[01:38:25] [SPEAKER_01]: And the guy said, no, he wasn't.

[01:38:27] [SPEAKER_01]: And so Weber gave him permission to look around the area.

[01:38:31] [SPEAKER_01]: And, uh, he looked around the area, uh, did not see the bodies.

[01:38:37] [SPEAKER_01]: And, uh, I would keep in mind that, uh, it was dark or getting dark and it was the woods.

[01:38:44] [SPEAKER_01]: It's hard to see things.

[01:38:45] [SPEAKER_01]: So the fact that he didn't see the bodies didn't mean they weren't there, just that, uh, he didn't see them.

[01:38:52] [SPEAKER_03]: Also, I mean, to be clear, this is a guy who was obviously looking for two lost girls, not a murder scene.

[01:39:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[01:39:04] [SPEAKER_01]: But, uh, I believe though, the reason the defense wanted to emphasize this particular officer's testimony is because, uh, they want to argue that the girls' bodies were not there at the time.

[01:39:17] [SPEAKER_03]: Yes.

[01:39:18] [SPEAKER_03]: Yes.

[01:39:18] [SPEAKER_03]: That there are contention is he didn't see him.

[01:39:20] [SPEAKER_03]: They weren't there.

[01:39:21] [SPEAKER_03]: McClellan's contention is he didn't see him.

[01:39:24] [SPEAKER_03]: They were there.

[01:39:25] [SPEAKER_03]: He didn't, he just didn't see him.

[01:39:27] [SPEAKER_01]: And so, uh, like in the cross examination, Jennifer Roger, uh, who handled the cross.

[01:39:31] [SPEAKER_01]: She did again.

[01:39:32] [SPEAKER_01]: She's she at this point is of the three defense attorneys.

[01:39:37] [SPEAKER_01]: I would argue that she's doing the best most consistently.

[01:39:40] [SPEAKER_03]: Really?

[01:39:41] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[01:39:42] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[01:39:42] [SPEAKER_03]: No, I mean, I think they all do well at some things.

[01:39:45] [SPEAKER_03]: I think cross examination is something she's good at.

[01:39:48] [SPEAKER_03]: Um, no, but actually, no, like, okay.

[01:39:52] [SPEAKER_03]: If you in, in this trial and what year, I would say so.

[01:39:56] [SPEAKER_03]: I know some people said to us that they didn't think her voir dire was as good, but I thought it was.

[01:40:02] [SPEAKER_03]: So I guess agree to disagree.

[01:40:03] [SPEAKER_03]: Who said that?

[01:40:04] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know.

[01:40:04] [SPEAKER_03]: Some people were, I don't know.

[01:40:05] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, I don't want to put anyone on blast.

[01:40:07] [SPEAKER_03]: It's okay to disagree.

[01:40:08] [SPEAKER_03]: It's just, I just, I thought it was good.

[01:40:10] [SPEAKER_01]: But anyway, during the course of the cross examination, she'd say things like, oh, you're especially trained to notice all these details, aren't you?

[01:40:18] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[01:40:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Because she wants to build them up.

[01:40:21] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[01:40:22] [SPEAKER_01]: But she does get him to clearly state in her cross that he did not see any bodies.

[01:40:29] [SPEAKER_01]: And McClellan in his redirect stressed that, well, just because he didn't see any bodies, that doesn't mean the bodies weren't there.

[01:40:37] [SPEAKER_03]: Yes.

[01:40:37] [SPEAKER_03]: Which seems reasonable.

[01:40:41] [SPEAKER_03]: But, you know, they got, they got to make their points.

[01:40:43] [SPEAKER_03]: So, you know, and I thought she did a good job.

[01:40:45] [SPEAKER_03]: She was building them up.

[01:40:46] [SPEAKER_03]: She was kind of, you know, getting a lot of details in there.

[01:40:48] [SPEAKER_03]: So I think that is, I think she, she did the kind of like harsh tear someone down cross examination with plants.

[01:40:54] [SPEAKER_03]: And then she did more of the kind of like raise questions, you know, form of it with, with, with the Mr.

[01:41:02] [SPEAKER_03]: With Deputy Katerin.

[01:41:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Is there anything else you want to say about his testimony?

[01:41:10] [SPEAKER_03]: Honestly, I don't, it was a lot of Katerin standing in front of this touch screen TV showing stuff around maps and where he drove and the access road and, and, you know, where things were supposed to be.

[01:41:25] [SPEAKER_03]: So it, it, it was a lot of pointing at a map and it was, it was interesting.

[01:41:35] [SPEAKER_03]: Personally, I kind of felt like it boiled down for me.

[01:41:40] [SPEAKER_03]: What boiled down for me was, well, okay.

[01:41:43] [SPEAKER_03]: Considering the lighting issues, cause it was getting dark.

[01:41:47] [SPEAKER_03]: That throws a lot of this up for grabs.

[01:41:50] [SPEAKER_03]: Now the trees had no leaves, so that made it easier to see through the trees.

[01:41:55] [SPEAKER_03]: So I think that isn't, you know, that's a point for the defense.

[01:41:57] [SPEAKER_03]: The dark though is a, is a point for the prosecution.

[01:42:00] [SPEAKER_03]: So to me, it was just sort of like if someone's there and kind of giving a cursory glance and then leaves without seeing anything.

[01:42:06] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't, to me, like you have searchers in so many cases miss bodies that they're looking for and miss all sorts of things.

[01:42:15] [SPEAKER_03]: So the fact that that could happen here is, is just, I don't find surprising and, and I don't really think that much of it.

[01:42:26] [SPEAKER_03]: If they can, if the defense can really show, like they were searching in this specific area and there was nothing there that day.

[01:42:34] [SPEAKER_03]: Then I would, I would change my mind.

[01:42:35] [SPEAKER_03]: I would think that was a pretty big deal.

[01:42:38] [SPEAKER_03]: But beyond that, if it's just like vaguely, well, they were in this general area, then I, I don't know.

[01:42:43] [SPEAKER_03]: You're in the dark and you're in the woods.

[01:42:45] [SPEAKER_01]: So then the jury was released and something happened.

[01:42:53] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to speculate on what this is exactly out of respect for the people involved, but the defense said they wanted to submit a deposition from Anna Williams, who of course is Abby Williams' mother.

[01:43:07] [SPEAKER_01]: They want to submit that as an offer of proof on a third party perpetrator.

[01:43:14] [SPEAKER_01]: And this is a deposition that Ms. Williams gave on August 30th of this year, which was after the three day hearing.

[01:43:21] [SPEAKER_01]: And they told Judge Gold that this deposition, they did not have this evidence at the time of the hearing and it is new evidence.

[01:43:28] [SPEAKER_01]: So there was something in this deposition that they believe strengthens that case.

[01:43:32] [SPEAKER_03]: And I will say this in terms of like Richard Allen, didn't really talk about him much.

[01:43:39] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, I think at these, at this first day of trial, he definitely seemed a lot more.

[01:43:49] [SPEAKER_03]: How do I say this?

[01:43:51] [SPEAKER_03]: Had more normal affect than we've seen in a while.

[01:43:55] [SPEAKER_03]: And I saw that there was an improvement at voir dire, but then, you know, he was still doing his kind of strange staring at the crowd sort of routine.

[01:44:04] [SPEAKER_03]: But in this situation, his back is facing to the gallery.

[01:44:07] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know what his expressions are from the perspective of the jury, but most of the time I couldn't really see his face that well.

[01:44:14] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I don't know if his back was quite to the, was his back completely to the gallery or was it just only slightly?

[01:44:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Slightly.

[01:44:22] [SPEAKER_03]: So you can kind of see him, but he seemed more calm, relaxed.

[01:44:26] [SPEAKER_03]: At one point I saw his stepfather give him a thumbs up.

[01:44:29] [SPEAKER_03]: He seemed very happy about that.

[01:44:31] [SPEAKER_03]: So he seemed a lot happier than normal.

[01:44:32] [SPEAKER_03]: And by that, I mean, he's smiling.

[01:44:35] [SPEAKER_03]: He's relaxed.

[01:44:36] [SPEAKER_03]: He's not doing as many sort of nervous rocking that we've seen or, or other kind of, you know, kind of at times like he glowers at his, you know, or at least like has kind of a very intense stare.

[01:44:51] [SPEAKER_03]: Um, and so he seems like that's something that's not as much of a problem right now, which is going to be good.

[01:44:58] [SPEAKER_03]: I think in front of a jury, I think having that more relaxed demeanor, you know, would be something that would be good.

[01:45:06] [SPEAKER_03]: Cause then they're looking at him and they're saying, okay, he's just, he's just a normal guy.

[01:45:10] [SPEAKER_03]: He's not like staring anyone down.

[01:45:12] [SPEAKER_03]: So that's been something we've noticed from him.

[01:45:15] [SPEAKER_03]: He, he still has his shaved head.

[01:45:17] [SPEAKER_03]: How would you say he looks like physically weight wise and stuff like that?

[01:45:20] [SPEAKER_03]: Cause that's been something that's come up a lot.

[01:45:22] [SPEAKER_03]: He's, he's obviously wearing day clothes.

[01:45:23] [SPEAKER_03]: I think he was wearing kind of like a shirt.

[01:45:25] [SPEAKER_00]: He still has glasses on his forehead.

[01:45:26] [SPEAKER_03]: He's still got the glasses on.

[01:45:27] [SPEAKER_03]: He's never used them, but you know, but maybe, maybe he, maybe he might need them in certain instances.

[01:45:31] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know.

[01:45:32] [SPEAKER_03]: Um, or maybe we just didn't see him use them, I guess.

[01:45:35] [SPEAKER_03]: Um, but what do you think he looks like physically at this point?

[01:45:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, he looks like a healthy man of his age.

[01:45:41] [SPEAKER_03]: He looks, he looks pretty normal to me.

[01:45:43] [SPEAKER_03]: Um, you know, I don't think he's as heavyset necessarily as he was when he first went into jail, into prison rather.

[01:45:52] [SPEAKER_03]: Um, but I think he looks in terms of weight to me, he looks within the normal range.

[01:45:58] [SPEAKER_03]: And he, again, I think he looks a lot more relaxed as we go into trial and maybe that could be being in street clothes.

[01:46:07] [SPEAKER_03]: He's seeing his family at these things.

[01:46:10] [SPEAKER_03]: Um, he's not shackled as much.

[01:46:12] [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, he's not shackled in the presence of the jury.

[01:46:15] [SPEAKER_03]: Obviously that would be very prejudicial.

[01:46:17] [SPEAKER_03]: So, um, you know, it may, it may make sense that all those things, uh, make him feel more relaxed.

[01:46:25] [SPEAKER_03]: Was there anything else?

[01:46:27] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm done if you are.

[01:46:29] [SPEAKER_03]: Alrighty.

[01:46:29] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, listen, thank you all for listening.

[01:46:32] [SPEAKER_03]: We really appreciate it.

[01:46:34] [SPEAKER_03]: Thanks for dealing with our rambling.

[01:46:36] [SPEAKER_03]: We're very tired.

[01:46:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Two hours sleep.

[01:46:39] [SPEAKER_01]: And.

[01:46:40] [SPEAKER_01]: And no food until like two hours ago.

[01:46:42] [SPEAKER_03]: We, um, yeah, we went, so we, we got in line at 11 PM and then got in 8 AM and then there was all that scrambling.

[01:46:50] [SPEAKER_03]: We hope it was, I mean, we felt it was really important to get in for opening statements.

[01:46:54] [SPEAKER_03]: Those are kind of set the tone for things.

[01:46:57] [SPEAKER_03]: First day of trial.

[01:46:58] [SPEAKER_03]: Um, we're probably not going to get in every day, honestly, but days we don't get in, we plan to get a lot of information for you anyway.

[01:47:05] [SPEAKER_03]: So we'll just have to see.

[01:47:07] [SPEAKER_03]: Unfortunately, this system is just sort of stacked against everyone trying to do this and we're just going to have to be smart and, uh, figure out how to continue to get you the best information possible in a way that's, uh, realistic.

[01:47:20] [SPEAKER_03]: Right.

[01:47:21] [SPEAKER_01]: So thank you for listening.

[01:47:22] [SPEAKER_03]: Thanks.

[01:47:23] [SPEAKER_03]: Bye.

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[01:48:40] [SPEAKER_03]: Thanks again for listening.

[01:48:43] [SPEAKER_03]: Thanks so much for sticking around to the end of this murder sheet episode.

[01:48:47] [SPEAKER_03]: Just as a quick post-roll ad, we wanted to tell you again about our friend Jason Blair's wonderful Silver Linings Handbook.

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[01:49:45] [SPEAKER_03]: Because he just has that ability as an interviewer to tease it out and really make it interesting for his audience.

[01:49:52] [SPEAKER_01]: On a personal level, Jason is frankly a great guy.

[01:49:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[01:49:56] [SPEAKER_01]: He's been a really good friend to us.

[01:49:59] [SPEAKER_01]: And so it's fun to be able to hit a button on my phone and get a little dose of Jason talking to people whenever I want.

[01:50:06] [SPEAKER_01]: But it's a really terrific show.

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[01:50:10] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[01:50:11] [SPEAKER_03]: I think our audience will like it.

[01:50:12] [SPEAKER_03]: And you've already met Jason if you listen consistently to our show.

[01:50:15] [SPEAKER_03]: He's been on our show a couple times.

[01:50:16] [SPEAKER_03]: We've been on his show.

[01:50:18] [SPEAKER_03]: He's a terrific guest.

[01:50:19] [SPEAKER_03]: I say this in one of our ads about him, but I literally always – I'm like, oh, yeah, I remember when Jason said this.

[01:50:25] [SPEAKER_03]: That really resonated.

[01:50:26] [SPEAKER_03]: Like I do quote him in conversations sometimes because he really has a good grasp of different complicated issues.

[01:50:32] [SPEAKER_00]: She quotes him to me all the time.

[01:50:32] [SPEAKER_03]: I do.

[01:50:33] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm like, I remember when Jason said this.

[01:50:34] [SPEAKER_03]: That was so right.

[01:50:35] [SPEAKER_03]: So, I mean, I think if we're doing that, I think – and you like us, I think you should give it a shot.

[01:50:40] [SPEAKER_03]: Give it a try.

[01:50:40] [SPEAKER_03]: I think you'll really enjoy it.

[01:50:42] [SPEAKER_03]: And again, he does a range of different topics, but they all kind of have the similar theme of compassion, of overcoming suffering, of dealing with suffering, of mental health, wellness, things like that.

[01:50:52] [SPEAKER_03]: There's kind of a common through line of compassion and empathy there that I think we find very nice.

[01:50:58] [SPEAKER_03]: And we work on a lot of stories that can be very tough, and we try to bring compassion and empathy to it.

[01:51:04] [SPEAKER_03]: But this is something that almost can be like if you're kind of feeling a little burned out by true crime.

[01:51:08] [SPEAKER_03]: I think this is kind of the life-affirming stuff that can be nice to listen to in a podcast.

[01:51:14] [SPEAKER_01]: It's compassionate.

[01:51:16] [SPEAKER_01]: It's affirming.

[01:51:17] [SPEAKER_01]: But I also want to emphasize it's smart.

[01:51:21] [SPEAKER_01]: People – Jason is a very intelligent, articulate person.

[01:51:26] [SPEAKER_01]: This is a smart show, but it's an accessible show.

[01:51:29] [SPEAKER_01]: I think you'll all really enjoy it.

[01:51:32] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and he's got a great community that he's building.

[01:51:34] [SPEAKER_03]: So we're really excited to be a part of that.

[01:51:35] [SPEAKER_03]: We're fans of the show.

[01:51:37] [SPEAKER_03]: We love it.

[01:51:37] [SPEAKER_03]: And we would strongly encourage you all to check it out.

[01:51:40] [SPEAKER_03]: Download some episodes.

[01:51:41] [SPEAKER_03]: Listen, I think you'll understand what we're talking about once you do.

[01:51:45] [SPEAKER_03]: But anyways, you can listen to The Silver Linings Handbook wherever you listen to podcasts.

[01:51:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Wherever you listen to podcasts.

[01:51:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Very easy to find.

[01:51:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.