The Delphi Murders: Richard Allen on Trial: Day Six: "It Doesn't Matter, It's Over"

[00:00:00] Content Warning, This Episode Contains Discussion Of The Murder Of Two Girls.

[00:00:32] And I gotta say, it was a very, very busy day at this trial, so we have a lot to talk about.

[00:00:39] So let's get to it.

[00:00:41] My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist.

[00:00:44] And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

[00:00:46] And this is The Murder Sheet.

[00:00:48] We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases.

[00:00:55] We're The Murder Sheet.

[00:00:56] And this is The Delphi Murders.

[00:01:00] Richard Allen on Trial.

[00:01:03] It Doesn't Matter.

[00:01:05] Day Five.

[00:01:06] It Doesn't Matter.

[00:01:07] It's Over.

[00:01:54] So I want to start by discussing something that goes all the way back to the early days after Richard Allen was arrested.

[00:02:04] Since very early on in the proceedings, Anya and I reported that his arrest came about as the result of a rediscovered tip from some sort of a volunteer.

[00:02:17] And there were numerous people who didn't believe us.

[00:02:20] And they spread all sorts of rumors like they said, oh, it was actually his son-in-law that turned them in or he got caught stealing tools from a neighbor.

[00:02:28] And that's how all this came about.

[00:02:30] But surprise, surprise, spoiler alert.

[00:02:32] And I reported what Anya and I reported was correct.

[00:02:35] And it was testified to by the first witness today, Kathy Shank.

[00:02:41] Kathy Shank is a woman who grew up in Carroll County, attended Purdue University in nearby Tippecanoe County in Lafayette.

[00:02:49] And then for 30 years worked for the welfare office in Carroll County, which is now the Department of Child Services.

[00:02:58] And so after she left in, I believe, 2011, she ultimately returned to work with…

[00:03:06] And I think this says something.

[00:03:08] First of all, I think she actually was with the department for 40 years.

[00:03:11] Oh, really? Okay.

[00:03:12] And I think what happens next in her life says something about this town of Delphi.

[00:03:18] And it's something that Ani and I have talked a lot about over the years we've been covering this case, where it's a case, it's a city where people are really there for each other.

[00:03:31] So this woman had retired from a job, and instead of just sitting back and relaxing and enjoying her well-deserved retirement, she hears about what happened to Abby and Libby, and she wants to get involved with the investigation.

[00:03:48] And she does so as a volunteer.

[00:03:51] And so then essentially for many years, she worked something close to the equivalent of a volunteer job with this investigation.

[00:04:00] I believe she said she was worked about 30 hours a week.

[00:04:05] And in the beginning, her role was basically to almost serve as a receptionist because people would come in and they would see her behind the counter and they'd say, oh, I have this tip or I have that tip.

[00:04:18] And she would make sure that whatever they reported got to the appropriate person in law enforcement who could then make determinations about what to do with it.

[00:04:29] But then as time passed, fewer and fewer people were coming in, so that didn't necessarily take up her full time.

[00:04:37] And so then she got a different assignment.

[00:04:40] Do you want to talk about that or do you want me to?

[00:04:42] Well, she described herself as an organizer and she talked about how essentially there were all these bankers boxes filled with investigative reports that she wanted to organize.

[00:04:55] So what she was doing basically was getting a bunch of filing cabinets and organizing each of these reports, I believe by, you know, like if it was like, oh, I saw, you know, Joe or something, then all the reports would be grouped together by possible perpetrators.

[00:05:15] Is that right?

[00:05:15] That is right.

[00:05:16] And she wasn't actually like reading every word of these reports.

[00:05:19] She was just determining who they were about.

[00:05:22] And then she organizes them.

[00:05:23] She arranges them by, like, as you say, here's all the ones about Joe.

[00:05:27] Here's all the ones about Bill in different stacks.

[00:05:29] And then when she has, like, all the reports about Joe, she puts them in a file or a folder.

[00:05:36] And she does that with all the other reports.

[00:05:38] And by the end of this process, by the end of this process, ladies and gentlemen, this woman, Kathy Shanks, filled.

[00:05:48] Shank.

[00:05:49] Kathy Shank filled five filing cabinets with these reports that she organized.

[00:05:56] Isn't that incredible?

[00:05:57] Yeah.

[00:05:57] And she also talked a little bit about the difference between some of these different.

[00:06:01] There's tips.

[00:06:02] And then there's, I think, narrative reports.

[00:06:06] Yeah.

[00:06:07] So what's the tip?

[00:06:09] I don't really have that in my notes very, very good.

[00:06:12] I think I can't read what I actually wrote.

[00:06:15] So I'm wondering if you could pick up the slack.

[00:06:18] So a tip would be, let's say someone calls in and says, my Uncle Joe looks just like Bridge Guy.

[00:06:26] And so they'd get a lot of these tips.

[00:06:28] And then they would put them in a couple of different categories.

[00:06:31] There were the categories where this is a tip where a law enforcement officer just needs to go out and talk to the person.

[00:06:39] And then that's done.

[00:06:40] That's all we need to do.

[00:06:41] And then there are other tips that would say, okay, go out, talk to the person, but don't stop there.

[00:06:48] Just keep investigating this lead and see where it goes.

[00:06:52] So that's what the tips are.

[00:06:53] They're the little reports that come in from citizens.

[00:06:55] The narrative reports, which is kind of what she was filing in the beginning, that would be what the officer did with the tip.

[00:07:02] So if they get a tip saying, my Uncle Joe looks like Bridge Guy, an officer would say, okay, I went out and talked to Uncle Joe.

[00:07:09] And he didn't look at saying like Bridge Guy.

[00:07:11] And he had an alibi.

[00:07:12] And that would be his narrative report.

[00:07:14] And then that would be the end of it.

[00:07:16] And then Kathy would put it in a folder and put it in a filing cabinet.

[00:07:20] So here's how Kathy Shank uncovered Richard Allen, sort of excavated him in this investigation after he'd been buried for literally years.

[00:07:30] She was going through these tips and found a self-reported tip from somebody who was listed as being named Richard Allen Whiteman.

[00:07:41] And it was self-reported.

[00:07:44] And then she went to sort of cross-check that with any other relevant information about what this was and realized after seeing the narrative report that there was a huge error here because his name was written down as Richard Allen Whiteman.

[00:08:01] And then he got misfiled and effectively lost.

[00:08:06] Never followed up on.

[00:08:07] Well, it was followed up immediately.

[00:08:09] Yeah, it was followed up on immediately.

[00:08:11] But then.

[00:08:11] A guy went out, Dan Doolin, as we'll hear more about in a moment, went out and talked to the guy.

[00:08:16] But then that was the end of it.

[00:08:18] And Doolin even recommended further contact being made.

[00:08:21] But that was the end of it.

[00:08:23] And so Kathy finds this and she takes the information to Tony Liggett.

[00:08:29] And she's like, hey, look at this.

[00:08:32] And they asked her, what was the date that you found this report?

[00:08:37] And I found this very poignant.

[00:08:40] Oh, my God.

[00:08:40] I think.

[00:08:41] Did you hear someone say, aw?

[00:08:42] Yes.

[00:08:43] The date that she found this report about Richard Allen was September 21st, 2022.

[00:08:50] And so the obvious question is, why on earth, after over two years, do you remember the exact date?

[00:09:00] And what was the reason?

[00:09:00] That was the birthday of her deceased husband.

[00:09:04] Yes.

[00:09:05] That was really sweet.

[00:09:06] And that, yeah, that I think talking with people afterwards and in between breaks, I feel like people found Kathy Shank to be a very impressive and very credible witness.

[00:09:17] And, you know, because she uncovered this thing, I mean, she played a huge role.

[00:09:21] And that has been certainly kind of underplayed over time because it wasn't exactly, you know, like we reported it.

[00:09:27] But a lot of people were like, we don't know what happened with this.

[00:09:29] But what happened was that this woman uncovered this thing and realized that something needed to be done about it.

[00:09:37] And then there was the cross from Andrew Baldwin.

[00:09:39] I'd like to say a little something about that.

[00:09:41] But why don't you go first?

[00:09:43] Is there anything you wanted to say about the cross-examination of Ms. Shank by Andrew Baldwin?

[00:09:48] I think the attorneys have kind of different cross styles depending on what they're trying to elicit.

[00:09:53] I thought Baldwin was very polite to Kathy Shank.

[00:09:57] It wasn't a particularly aggressive cross per se.

[00:10:00] It was my perception.

[00:10:02] That is true.

[00:10:03] He did mention, oh, September 21st, 2022, you ended up giving this to Tony Liggett.

[00:10:09] And isn't it true that at that time he was running for sheriff?

[00:10:12] Oh, God.

[00:10:13] And McClellan objected because that was outside the scope of the direct examination.

[00:10:17] Can you explain that?

[00:10:18] Yeah, I was about to.

[00:10:19] Oh, sorry.

[00:10:20] That means a cross-examination is only supposed to cover the materials and the subjects that were discussed in the direct examination.

[00:10:31] So if you wanted to do a cross-examination of Anya about serial theft and in the direct examination there was nothing mentioned about serial, you really couldn't do that.

[00:10:44] If I just had Anya on the stand to say, oh, yes, I went to the beach and it was sunny.

[00:10:49] How can you get – you can't say, well, now let's talk about serial.

[00:10:53] Does that make sense at all?

[00:10:54] It makes sense.

[00:10:54] It makes a lot of sense.

[00:10:55] And this is something we see the defense run into again and again.

[00:10:58] And they start bringing in all manner of things.

[00:11:01] They start kitchen sinking.

[00:11:03] And one thing I will say about Judge Francesckel today is that she was very much keeping that to a minimum.

[00:11:09] She was sustaining a lot of objections on behalf of the prosecution around essentially getting off topic or asking and answering questions and various things around that nature.

[00:11:23] We can talk more about that later, but that was something we noticed.

[00:11:26] And this comment about the sheriff's election put a pin in that because we are going to hear more about that later.

[00:11:33] There was a juror question for this witness, and the juror's question was, how did you determine exactly that the name Richard Allen Whiteman was incorrect?

[00:11:47] And how she did that is when she went to file the narrative report and looked it up, she saw that the narrative report mentioned Richard Allen who lived on Whiteman Drive.

[00:12:00] And so she realized that a mistake had been made.

[00:12:03] And she said, quote, being from this area, I knew there was a Whiteman Drive.

[00:12:07] So she was already sort of familiar with that street and put it together quite quickly.

[00:12:12] So next witness?

[00:12:14] Do it.

[00:12:14] Next witness was Department of Natural Resources Officer Daniel or Dan Doolin.

[00:12:21] He's now a captain, actually, in the DNR and has 26 years of service with that organization.

[00:12:29] And, you know, with the DNR in Indiana, this is a governmental agency.

[00:12:36] They're law enforcement officers, and they typically deal with things around like, you know, property enforcement.

[00:12:44] Things around off-road vehicles, things around, I think, fishing, hunting, you know, kind of wildlife situations, right?

[00:12:53] Exactly.

[00:12:53] And, you know, in a rural area, especially, that's an important thing if people are hunting, fishing, doing things like that.

[00:13:01] So it's not typically the group that you would necessarily see in a murder investigation, but they are fully allowed to enforce any kind of laws in Indiana, right?

[00:13:12] Exactly.

[00:13:13] So, like, I mean, it's not like it's like, oh, you have to stick with all of the natural stuff.

[00:13:19] Like, you know, there's an element where, like, they can't get involved, but they're not typically.

[00:13:23] Is that fair to say?

[00:13:24] That is the case.

[00:13:26] But in a case like this particular murder investigation of Liberty German and Abigail Williams, it was kind of an all-hands-on-deck situation because everybody wanted to help.

[00:13:38] And so he goes and says, let me help.

[00:13:41] And they said, you know, one thing you can do is you can run down some of these leads.

[00:13:45] And one of the leads they gave him was a self-reported lead or tip from Richard Allen, indicating that he had been in the area of the trails roughly around the time of the murders.

[00:13:59] Let me set this up a little bit.

[00:14:01] I know a lot of people have had questions about dates around this because they want to kind of cross-check some things, and I definitely respect that.

[00:14:08] So let's set it up.

[00:14:10] He's a lieutenant back then.

[00:14:11] He's in charge of the district of the DNR in Lafayette.

[00:14:15] And he's on vacation, gets back, I believe, February 16th, 2017, so two days after the bodies are found.

[00:14:24] And he assisted in investigating the team, and he started going to command center briefings.

[00:14:31] And then February 18th is when he follows up on the lead involving Allen.

[00:14:38] Yes.

[00:14:39] And so he makes phone contact with Richard Allen and says, I want to talk to you.

[00:14:47] I want to talk to you in person.

[00:14:49] And the custom was that when you made contact with one of these people mentioned in one of these tips or leads, you would either meet them at their home and have an interview there,

[00:15:01] or the person would come to a law enforcement facility and the discussion would happen there.

[00:15:08] I think this is interesting myself.

[00:15:11] Richard Allen did not want the officer to come to his house, and he did not want to come to a police station.

[00:15:19] Draw whatever conclusions you wish from that.

[00:15:22] So instead, what he wanted to do was he said, let's meet at a grocery store parking lot.

[00:15:33] Yeah.

[00:15:33] Kind of a strange thing.

[00:15:35] And they actually ended up having a meeting in the grocery store parking lot not too long after the initial phone call.

[00:15:44] And during that meeting, Richard Allen said to Doolin that he was on the trails from 1 to 3 p.m.

[00:15:54] But a few moments later, as he was leaving the meeting with Doolin, he said, no, actually, that's not right.

[00:16:01] Actually, I was there from 1.30 to 3.30.

[00:16:06] Doolin asked Richard Allen, did you see anyone else there?

[00:16:10] And Richard Allen said, well, I saw three girls at Freedom Bridge.

[00:16:16] And he mentioned, Richard Allen mentioned he parked at the old Farm Bureau parking lot, which I think is also known as the CPS building.

[00:16:23] Well, he mistakenly called it the Farm Bureau parking lot.

[00:16:27] And this came up on cross.

[00:16:29] But Doolin said that through sort of discussing it with him and having a conversation through kind of like, okay, is that here?

[00:16:35] Okay, like almost figuring it out together.

[00:16:37] He was able to determine that what Allen was really talking about was the old CPS building.

[00:16:42] Richard Allen said after he parked, he walked towards the Monon High Bridge.

[00:16:48] He did not see anyone else except for those three girls.

[00:16:52] But he indicated he wasn't paying a lot of attention to anything because he was focused on looking at stocks on his phone.

[00:17:00] And Doolin did not record this interview.

[00:17:05] Another thing, I think this is really important to stress.

[00:17:08] I think people heard Dan Doolin's name in the beginning of this and assumed that he was the person who made the mistake and got his name wrong.

[00:17:16] And that therefore the delay was his fault or the misfiling was his fault.

[00:17:20] That's not the case.

[00:17:21] That's emphatically not the case.

[00:17:23] And I think a lot of people, frankly, should maybe think about waiting for all the facts until they post, I guess.

[00:17:30] Because, I mean, if people were going around screaming at this guy, this was not his issue.

[00:17:35] He was given, dispatch got the name wrong.

[00:17:40] How that happened exactly, we don't know.

[00:17:43] But it was handed to him and it's like you're going to interview Richard Allen Whiteman.

[00:17:48] In his conversation with Allen, he quickly realized, oh, your name's not Richard Allen Whiteman.

[00:17:53] You're Richard Allen of Whiteman Drive.

[00:17:54] And he noted that and said that should be changed in his subsequent narrative report.

[00:18:02] But that just didn't happen, unfortunately.

[00:18:06] And so I guess I'm just saying that like with Doolin, that particular issue was not something that he seems to have caused based on this testimony.

[00:18:18] And, yeah, the three girls thing is obviously incredibly important because given how disparate some of the witness sightings are, I think they'd be a lot easier to dismiss entirely if you didn't have Richard Allen also saying he saw them back.

[00:18:33] Right?

[00:18:34] Especially these three girls.

[00:18:36] You know, he, as usual, is his own worst enemy.

[00:18:39] One important part of the story was, quote, he was looking on a stock ticker on his phone as he walked, end quote.

[00:18:45] That was why he supposedly wasn't paying attention to who he was seeing.

[00:18:51] So odd.

[00:18:52] So Mullen, Doolin rather, prepares this and turns it in and that's basically it.

[00:19:03] Well, what about the phone?

[00:19:04] Talk about the phone.

[00:19:05] So this is also very important.

[00:19:07] It became a big deal as well.

[00:19:12] At that time, Doolin also got – there was an acronym.

[00:19:19] I don't remember it off the top of my head.

[00:19:21] But essentially there is a phone identification number that is specifically unique to your specific device.

[00:19:27] So, you know, I have a phone and that's going to – you know, it's some sort of Android situation.

[00:19:33] But it's got some kind of identification number that's different from every other device.

[00:19:39] And Doolin gets this number.

[00:19:41] And thank you for bringing it up because that is very crucial because this is how we later know that police, even though they recovered nearly a couple dozen devices and phones from Allen's residence, the phone he was using in 2017 was never recovered.

[00:19:57] Yeah, despite a lot of older phones being found.

[00:20:00] And the only way we know that is because of Dan Doolin.

[00:20:03] Yeah, we could have assumed that maybe, you know, maybe an older phone was his phone at the time.

[00:20:06] But that's – Dan Doolin got that and that's why we know that.

[00:20:10] And yeah.

[00:20:12] So let's flash forward to 2022.

[00:20:16] Steve Mullen calls Dan Doolin and asks if he remembers anything further about his interaction with Richard Allen.

[00:20:23] This is after it's been rediscovered by Ms. Shank and Doolin did not.

[00:20:29] But he looked up Richard Allen's name on his computer and he found out something interesting.

[00:20:38] Both Richard Allen and Kathy Allen had applied and gotten phishing licenses.

[00:20:45] It gave their – Richard Allen's name, contact information, and so on.

[00:20:49] But what is interesting is that a couple of months or so after he applied for these, he went in and he changed a couple of details.

[00:21:03] He changed his weight and he changed his height.

[00:21:06] Yeah, he went from 5'4 to 5'6 and then I think he had a weight change of about 15 pounds.

[00:21:14] So that's odd.

[00:21:16] That is odd.

[00:21:17] Especially the height change.

[00:21:19] You can gain or lose weight.

[00:21:22] Can't really change your height at that age.

[00:21:24] So I can speculate about that, but why don't you speculate amongst yourselves?

[00:21:30] Yes.

[00:21:30] Mm-hmm.

[00:21:31] Yep.

[00:21:32] And yeah.

[00:21:34] So Doolin also noted that he didn't really remember this interaction at all until –

[00:21:40] The phone call from Mullen, right?

[00:21:42] But no, but until specifically – it all came back to him when he remembered the stock ticker element of the story.

[00:21:48] That was what triggered the memory.

[00:21:50] Like, oh, I remember the whole thing.

[00:21:51] Like, at first it was like, who?

[00:21:53] You know, and like, did I do that?

[00:21:55] It sounds like Doolin was running around doing a bunch of these interviews at the time.

[00:21:59] Yeah.

[00:21:59] And doing different tasks and whatnot.

[00:22:02] And, you know, this is – this is something that doesn't really surprise me given what happened.

[00:22:07] Because one big question that you may have is, well, Doolin interviewed this kind of random middle-aged guy who says he was at the scene back, you know, on that – back right in 2017.

[00:22:20] So why wouldn't he have checked in on that later on or kind of gone to the investigators and say, hey, remember that guy I talked to?

[00:22:28] What happened with that?

[00:22:29] Did you clear him?

[00:22:31] And, yeah, I can understand wondering that.

[00:22:33] But it sounds like these kind of early days were a bit chaotic and, you know, sometimes there's an element of, like, moving on to the next thing.

[00:22:44] It sounds like he recommended that this be followed up on and it wasn't.

[00:22:50] And I feel like maybe he's gotten a lot of kind of outsized blame for that.

[00:22:55] And I guess it's like – it's kind of like this fog of war situation where you have all this stuff going on and you're trying to help deal with a tragedy.

[00:23:04] And if you talk to, like, a dozen guys, maybe they blur in together to a certain extent and you don't realize the importance of just one of them.

[00:23:11] And you think that perhaps, like, well, I said to look into it so people must have looked into it and he's just one of the witnesses or he's just, you know, some guy looking for attention and they found out he wasn't really there.

[00:23:20] I can understand that and then you just kind of – it fades from your mind.

[00:23:23] I'm not saying that's definitely what happened here.

[00:23:26] But Doolin ultimately was not able to account for why he forgot it.

[00:23:29] But I guess I just – I think it's better to have – I don't know.

[00:23:34] What do you think?

[00:23:35] Yeah, I agree with you.

[00:23:37] I agree with you.

[00:23:38] Certainly shouldn't have a rush to judgment.

[00:23:41] I wanted to talk a little bit about the cross-exam by Brad Rosey.

[00:23:45] And before I do, I wanted to get your opinion.

[00:23:50] Ian, it seemed to me – there were some exceptions.

[00:23:54] But it seemed to me that generally today the defense attorneys did not bring their A game.

[00:24:00] Nope.

[00:24:01] And I will give you an example of that.

[00:24:04] During this cross-examination, Brad Rosey started talking about, oh, yeah, you have this meeting with him at the grocery store.

[00:24:11] And then for some reason he started talking about, yeah, there's grocery stores in Delphi.

[00:24:15] There's one around the corner here.

[00:24:17] There's one around there.

[00:24:19] And McClellan said, objection.

[00:24:21] What's the relevance of this grocery store list?

[00:24:24] He sounds like you suddenly becoming obsessed with grocery stores.

[00:24:27] Was that Rosie trying to be relatable?

[00:24:29] Hey, folks, the common people loves check notes.

[00:24:32] Grocery stores?

[00:24:33] Is he trying to redeem himself after the I'll dumb this down moment?

[00:24:37] Well, I would think maybe if he was talking to a Delphi jury, the Delphi jury would say, oh, yes, he's naming grocery stores that I go to.

[00:24:45] This is a Fort Wayne jury.

[00:24:49] I don't think he was trying to be folksy.

[00:24:51] It was a weird moment.

[00:24:53] But I don't know.

[00:24:54] Maybe he has a real interest in grocery stores.

[00:24:56] Can I just also say like this is – there was a lot of talk about like tip sheets and what was it like?

[00:25:01] Like narrative sheets and like all these – and every time they said sheet, I had like a – I like froze and it was like, oh, my God.

[00:25:08] What did we do?

[00:25:09] Why are we in this?

[00:25:10] It was awful.

[00:25:11] They kept – I'm very tired.

[00:25:14] And so I was not prepared for that.

[00:25:17] But – okay.

[00:25:19] I had something else to say about the cross exam.

[00:25:21] Was there anything else you wanted to say about it?

[00:25:23] I have a question.

[00:25:24] I've noticed this a couple times.

[00:25:26] And I don't want to be paranoid, but I was just more curious as this like a little strategy.

[00:25:31] I've noticed a few times that Baldwin and Rosie in particular will like mess up a major but seemingly small detail like a date.

[00:25:40] Yeah, that's a strategy.

[00:25:41] That's a strategy.

[00:25:42] Like they'll be like, oh, yeah, on February 16th, 2017.

[00:25:45] They'll be like, no, February 18th.

[00:25:47] Oh, okay.

[00:25:48] He would say, oh, yeah, you talked to Richard Allen on this day, didn't you?

[00:25:52] And then the witnesses know I actually talked to him on this other day.

[00:25:55] Okay.

[00:25:55] So I guess the hope would be that the witness would agree to the wrong day and then you can attack their credibility or their memory.

[00:26:01] So that's something they do?

[00:26:03] I just didn't know if that was –

[00:26:04] That's not uncommon.

[00:26:05] That's wild.

[00:26:06] Like so you really have to pay attention on the standards so you're not agreeing to the wrong date.

[00:26:10] I was just curious because they do that a lot.

[00:26:13] And it's like – I guess – I mean is there any risk of them sounding like they don't know what they're talking about?

[00:26:17] I don't think so.

[00:26:18] No, not at all.

[00:26:19] They just kind of breeze right by then like, oh, yeah, okay, whatever.

[00:26:22] But I want to talk about another thing about this cross and this also gets to my point about how in my mind they did not bring their A game today.

[00:26:34] Because for some reason, Rosie started to say, oh, yes.

[00:26:44] So somebody tried to change Richard Allen's height and weight on his license.

[00:26:48] But, you know, how do we know that was Richard Allen?

[00:26:51] Oh, this was brutal.

[00:26:52] I know what you're talking about.

[00:26:52] Because how do we know?

[00:26:54] Because couldn't anybody just get online and randomly say, I'm Richard Allen, a CVS employee.

[00:27:01] I'm going to change my height.

[00:27:03] And so he brought that up.

[00:27:05] And so then in redirect from McClellan, Dan Doolin was able to say, well, I know it was Richard Allen because I was able to see the credit card he used to purchase the phishing license.

[00:27:20] And all of the emails associated with this account and the IP address and all of these are very clearly linked back to the real Richard Allen.

[00:27:33] So there's no doubt that this was done by the real Richard Allen.

[00:27:37] So why on earth, why did Rosie raise an issue and stake some credibility on it only have it totally demolished a few moments later?

[00:27:49] That was an odd moment.

[00:27:51] Also, I mean, like, I mean, listen, I think it's really weird that he changed his height and weight on there.

[00:27:55] But, I mean, isn't there an element of, like, couldn't they almost be, like, just, like, maybe he made a typo.

[00:28:01] Like, you know what I mean?

[00:28:01] Like, you don't have to make it be, like, this whole, like, well, someone hacked him or, like, his wife did it for some reason.

[00:28:06] And she wanted him to be specifically two inches taller.

[00:28:09] You know, I agree.

[00:28:11] They kind of just made themselves look.

[00:28:13] I'm sure there's a perfectly innocent reason for why a man might want to have the government have an incorrect description of his physical appearance that has nothing to do with trying to evade responsibility for a crime.

[00:28:25] There you go.

[00:28:26] So there's some juror questions.

[00:28:28] Oh, and also I will say Richard Allen appeared to be nodding at one point when Brad Rosie was, like, explaining something.

[00:28:36] There's something sometimes that feels to me personally, and this is my own subjective opinion, you can disagree.

[00:28:43] And I'm just saying this as someone who's in the room with him.

[00:28:46] And it's not always.

[00:28:47] This is not always how I feel about how he's reacting to things.

[00:28:50] But occasionally, especially when we're kind of getting the, like, nodding along to testimony or nodding along to his lawyer's explanation of things, there's something somewhat performative about it.

[00:29:00] Very performative.

[00:29:01] It's like, yeah, oh, yeah, that's a really good point.

[00:29:03] Yeah.

[00:29:04] It's like, okay.

[00:29:06] It's odd.

[00:29:08] There was a lot more odd behavior today.

[00:29:10] But that was something I noticed, and that is something I've been consistently noticing.

[00:29:14] And we'll talk more about it later.

[00:29:15] But I will say that Richard Allen generally in court seems to be growing less and less comfortable.

[00:29:23] Oh, he's not.

[00:29:25] Yeah.

[00:29:25] And we'll give you some examples of that a little bit later.

[00:29:28] The juror question.

[00:29:30] The first time you interviewed Richard Allen, what was his hair like?

[00:29:35] And I guess that was a question because we've had some different descriptions of Bridge Guy.

[00:29:39] And Dan Dumoulin said he did not remember.

[00:29:43] Mm-hmm.

[00:29:45] Shall we move on?

[00:29:46] Yeah.

[00:29:46] I should mention that that witness was presented by Prosecutor Nick McClelland.

[00:29:51] And the first witness of the day, Kathy Shank, was prepared and produced by Tracy Diener.

[00:29:58] Not Tracy Diener.

[00:30:00] Stacey Diener.

[00:30:01] I apologize to Ms. Diener and her family.

[00:30:03] I'm very, very, very tired.

[00:30:05] Meanwhile, we're pronouncing Latrell's name a billion different ways.

[00:30:10] We're falling apart.

[00:30:11] People are correcting us.

[00:30:12] We can't help it.

[00:30:13] We're just swerving into it.

[00:30:14] So we apologize.

[00:30:17] You want to talk about the next witness?

[00:30:20] Sure.

[00:30:20] Let me flip ahead.

[00:30:21] Which is also presented by Prosecutor Nicholas McClelland.

[00:30:28] Oh, can I just, let me see.

[00:30:31] What you looking for?

[00:30:33] Next one's Steve Mullen, right?

[00:30:34] Next one's Steve Mullen.

[00:30:35] So he's, of course, the Carroll County, let me just before that, because I found something

[00:30:40] kind of amusing.

[00:30:42] At one point, Judge Gull told Rosie, I don't know if you remember this.

[00:30:48] I do.

[00:30:48] Yeah.

[00:30:49] I thought this was kind of wild.

[00:30:52] You know, I thought Rosie was starting to spiral, even though I did not necessarily feel

[00:30:57] Doolin was like a formidable witness.

[00:30:59] Like him saying, I don't remember why I forgot this.

[00:31:03] There were some openings there for the defense.

[00:31:05] I don't feel like they really got them.

[00:31:07] He started to just kind of seem to be fumbling.

[00:31:09] And at one point, Gull basically stopped it and said, if you're going to impeach him,

[00:31:15] impeach him properly.

[00:31:17] So it was like, did not get off to a great start.

[00:31:19] So let's go to Steve Mullen.

[00:31:21] This is the Carroll County Prosecutor's Office investigator.

[00:31:26] And earlier he was the police chief.

[00:31:29] And we've heard from him a few times in this trial.

[00:31:32] So you talked about on September 21st, 2022, Tony Liggett called him with the news about

[00:31:37] what Kathy Shank had found.

[00:31:39] So Mullen reached out to then Lieutenant Doolin about it.

[00:31:43] And then they set out, he and Liggett set out to kind of try to figure out some stuff

[00:31:49] about who this Richard Allen was.

[00:31:52] One thing they found out was that no one had spoken to Richard Allen since Dan Doolin.

[00:31:57] And Richard Allen actually had two cars registered to him.

[00:32:02] They got the information about the cars.

[00:32:05] And then they looked at this Hoosier Harvest video, which shows traffic in the vicinity on

[00:32:14] the day of the murder.

[00:32:15] And they're looking for a car that could be Richard Allen's.

[00:32:21] And they believe they find it.

[00:32:23] Yes.

[00:32:24] So he had a 2006 Ford 500 and a 2016 Ford Focus.

[00:32:31] And they believe it's the Ford Focus.

[00:32:33] And they find it in this video.

[00:32:37] And what's interesting is they find it.

[00:32:41] It appears in the video at 127 p.m.

[00:32:46] heading towards the trails.

[00:32:49] Yeah.

[00:32:49] And of course, Richard Allen said he went there at 130.

[00:32:53] So that fits.

[00:32:55] And what is interesting, it seems to be the Ford Focus.

[00:32:59] And so what's interesting is Tony Liggett goes to the CVS where Richard Allen works.

[00:33:06] And Richard Allen has parked his car there and is inside doing whatever he does at CVS.

[00:33:12] And Tony Liggett finds the car and he takes pictures of it.

[00:33:16] And so this gives them the ability to get a better idea of what exactly this car looks like and whether or not it might have any unique features.

[00:33:29] And one of the features they find on it is that it has rims on its...

[00:33:37] What do you call those things?

[00:33:38] Wheels.

[00:33:39] Wheels.

[00:33:39] Rims on the wheels.

[00:33:40] Oh, God.

[00:33:41] Oh, no, Kevin.

[00:33:42] It has spokes on the rims.

[00:33:44] And because it has spokes on the rims, you can actually see light through it.

[00:33:48] And on this Ford Focus that they see on this traffic video, they can't see well enough to see the lights in its plate.

[00:33:57] But they can see that they can see light through the rims.

[00:34:00] It ends there at the exact same time that he said it would be.

[00:34:03] I have a question for you.

[00:34:05] Did they show this video?

[00:34:07] Because we were in the corner and I don't know.

[00:34:10] We didn't...

[00:34:11] In that portion of the hearing of the trial date, we were in a place where we couldn't see.

[00:34:17] But did they actually play the Hoosier Harvester video for people?

[00:34:20] I don't believe they did.

[00:34:21] But they did give...

[00:34:22] If my memory is correct, they did give the jurors still images of it.

[00:34:26] I was just curious because I was curious about how clear the video was.

[00:34:29] But it sounds like we don't know.

[00:34:31] And correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like that car believed that the prosecution alleges that Allen's car was headed west on CR 300 north.

[00:34:41] That sounds right.

[00:34:42] Okay.

[00:34:43] And appears at 127.35 seconds.

[00:34:48] So again, this is something that at the very least resembles his car that he drives and is also appearing at the exact same time he told Doolin he was getting there.

[00:34:59] So at this point, they're like, you know, maybe it's time to talk to this guy.

[00:35:04] So they drive out to Richard Allen's house on October 13th, 2022.

[00:35:11] And Richard Allen agrees to come in for an interview.

[00:35:16] Steve Mullen says he Mirandizes the man.

[00:35:19] Kathy is off...

[00:35:20] Oh, so they asked Richard Allen, what is your story?

[00:35:25] What happened on February 13th in your world?

[00:35:29] And Richard Allen says, well, my wife Kathy was off work.

[00:35:34] I also have the day off.

[00:35:37] Yep.

[00:35:38] No, pardon me.

[00:35:38] I don't think Kathy was off work.

[00:35:40] I don't know why that says that in my notes.

[00:35:42] So strike that from the record.

[00:35:43] No.

[00:35:43] Yeah.

[00:35:44] Richard Allen was off...

[00:35:46] I think he was off work and she was working.

[00:35:47] Yeah, she was at work.

[00:35:49] Yes.

[00:35:49] Richard Allen said he's off work, so he goes to his mother's house in Peru.

[00:35:54] Well, first, we heard Peru.

[00:35:57] We heard Peru.

[00:35:58] We heard Mexico.

[00:35:59] And we also heard Miami County just north of Peru.

[00:36:03] But they're in the Peru area.

[00:36:05] Did you think we were going to leave Peru alone after all of this time?

[00:36:10] I mean, isn't that...

[00:36:12] I mean, like, this case took us into Peru for a very long time.

[00:36:17] So it is a little bit surreal to hear this for me personally.

[00:36:21] And to be able to, you know, report it at this point.

[00:36:24] So he leaves his mom's place in the vicinity of Peru around 11 or 11.15 on that date.

[00:36:30] He goes home.

[00:36:32] He gets his jacket, apparently the blue Carhartt jacket, and he goes to the trails.

[00:36:40] He says he passes three girls.

[00:36:42] He's on his phone looking at his stock ticker.

[00:36:45] And he now claims he was at the trails from 12 to 1.30.

[00:36:51] And he says he walks onto the Monon High Bridge.

[00:36:55] And he walks to the first platform.

[00:36:58] And he says he was indeed driving the Ford Focus.

[00:37:03] He says he usually drove to the trails through the city.

[00:37:07] But Mullen says, and this becomes a point of contention.

[00:37:11] Mullen says that Allen indicated that he may have gone through the country route.

[00:37:15] And that's important because for him to be on the video, the car video, driving in the direction that he was, he couldn't have taken the city route.

[00:37:26] He would have needed to take the so-called country route.

[00:37:28] And to back up a little bit, the platform, him saying he went on the platform of the bridge is really important because Betsy Blair described seeing bridge guy standing on the first platform of the bridge.

[00:37:42] At first, kind of looking up upstream and then turning to face her.

[00:37:48] So that's a problem for him.

[00:37:51] I know Betsy Blair described seeing a much younger man at first, although frankly from her testimony the other day, she seems to have backed off that in a major way and concedes.

[00:38:00] He looked young to me, but I saw him for just a moment and then I left.

[00:38:04] And his hair that I thought was poofy brown hair could have easily been a hat.

[00:38:08] So that plus the fact that he's putting himself on that platform around that time is bad for him.

[00:38:18] That's really bad.

[00:38:19] Very, very bad for him.

[00:38:22] It's not like, I mean, it's on the same level for me as the, oh, I saw this group of girls and they saw me.

[00:38:28] And then it's like, you know, this woman saw me on the platform.

[00:38:31] And yes, I was definitely on the platform.

[00:38:33] He's again and again putting himself in a place where he does not want to be.

[00:38:37] At some point during this interview, they show him a picture of Bridge Guy.

[00:38:44] And Richard Allen said, well, if this picture was taken with the girl's camera, there is no way it can be me.

[00:38:52] Kind of an odd remark.

[00:38:54] It's a strange response.

[00:38:55] I mean, it's a weirdly wordy response.

[00:38:57] You would think someone would just say, no, that's not me.

[00:39:01] I guess he's trying to say like, oh, I didn't kill.

[00:39:04] I didn't kill anyone.

[00:39:05] So like if that's from related to the murder situation, can't be me.

[00:39:10] But yeah, I don't know.

[00:39:12] I guess people when they're nervous can say weird stuff.

[00:39:15] As we prove on a regular basis on this program.

[00:39:18] We then had lunch break and came back for cross-examination from Andrew Baldwin.

[00:39:27] Do you want to talk about how Allen was acting first?

[00:39:29] Because this is when we saw some of that weird behavior we mentioned.

[00:39:32] Yeah, why don't you talk about that?

[00:39:33] So he's like scowling.

[00:39:35] So, you know, he's not chained up at this.

[00:39:37] That would be incredibly prejudicial for a jury to see him like that.

[00:39:40] So they have him just out.

[00:39:41] And he's surrounded by guards who are like wearing suits.

[00:39:43] And like they don't look like, you know, like they're not in their uniforms or anything.

[00:39:47] And so, you know, he's in the well of the court.

[00:39:52] He's like frankly scowling at the people in the gallery.

[00:39:57] He's or I don't know if he's scowling at them or he's like staring through them.

[00:40:01] He's like standing with his like fingers and knuckles like pressed against his mouth.

[00:40:06] I don't know whether he was...

[00:40:10] Like biting his nails necessarily or just kind of like...

[00:40:14] He kind of had them up against his mouth.

[00:40:15] I don't know whether they're in his mouth or not.

[00:40:17] And then at one point I noticed him just kind of repetitively again and again in an, you know, frankly ominous given what he's alleged to have done.

[00:40:25] But stroking his neck while staring down his nose at people in the gallery.

[00:40:31] It was...

[00:40:32] There's been a couple of times where I've seen him look intently towards the gallery.

[00:40:38] And I think I know what he's doing.

[00:40:40] I think he is perhaps trying to make eye contact with his family at times.

[00:40:44] And I think we can all understand that.

[00:40:46] In a situation where we were facing something as huge as this, maybe having a nice smile with your wife or your stepfather, your mother, sister, whatever.

[00:40:55] Maybe that's a source of comfort and strength.

[00:40:57] So I think that doesn't really strike me as odd.

[00:41:00] But this was pretty weird.

[00:41:02] And I think his behavior has gotten a lot more similar to what the kind of weirdness we saw pre-trial.

[00:41:10] And I don't really judge necessarily that because you can have someone who has mental health issues or is under a lot of stress.

[00:41:18] I'm not saying, oh my God, he was acting weird, so therefore he's guilty.

[00:41:21] Just like I would think it was really stupid.

[00:41:23] You know, you wouldn't say like, oh, he's really normal, so therefore he's innocent.

[00:41:27] You just have to kind of look at the evidence.

[00:41:28] But I think what I'm trying to say here is I personally feel having seen his behavior devolve and him seem really much more nervous, I think this trial is on some level having a negative impact on him.

[00:41:44] Yes, I think it is proving to be an ordeal for him.

[00:41:48] He seems to be in some fashion deteriorating before our eyes.

[00:41:55] And this makes me wonder, like, I mean, we were told that he wanted to go to trial, right?

[00:42:01] Yeah, it makes me feel that if this trial actually runs as long as we've been told and as long as I fear, what condition will he be at at the end of it?

[00:42:12] Yeah, I just, you know, we were, like, he confessed a bunch of times and said he wanted to get right with God.

[00:42:20] And then and then that seemingly changed.

[00:42:22] And, you know, it's not lost on me that in one of the phone calls where he's confessing his wife, Kathy, says, I'm going to call Brad, presumably Brad Rosie, one of the attorneys.

[00:42:32] And it's like, I just I hope that this is what he wants personally, not not his family and not the attorneys.

[00:42:41] I imagine, you know, a good attorney is going to want to fight for their client.

[00:42:44] I get that.

[00:42:45] And a family is going to want to fight for someone they love.

[00:42:48] I get that, too.

[00:42:49] But ultimately, if he doesn't want this process, which is.

[00:42:54] I imagine quite grueling, then, you know, that is kind of.

[00:43:00] A travesty.

[00:43:00] So let's talk about this cross exam.

[00:43:05] After lunch, Andrew Baldwin walks up to Mullen and says, you are so desperate to have that car on the video be Richard Allen's car right before lunch.

[00:43:17] You lied to this jury.

[00:43:18] Yeah, I did a little blood and thunder opening.

[00:43:21] And McClellan objected, of course.

[00:43:22] And the lie, allegedly, is that Mullen said that Richard Allen said that sometimes he took this other route to the trails.

[00:43:33] And Baldwin very theatrically said he never said that in that interview.

[00:43:39] Here's a transcript.

[00:43:40] I want you to show me where he said that.

[00:43:43] And then there was.

[00:43:45] How would you describe this?

[00:43:46] The world's longest pause.

[00:43:49] As Mullen is looking through the transcript, looking for this.

[00:43:55] And then at one point.

[00:43:57] It was so tense.

[00:43:58] It was so, so tense.

[00:44:02] And at one point, Mullen says, well, Mr. Baldwin, I'm having trouble locating it.

[00:44:08] And.

[00:44:09] And I was like, oh, my.

[00:44:10] At that point, I was like, oh, man.

[00:44:12] He just impeached him pretty hard.

[00:44:15] That's what my initial reaction was when he.

[00:44:17] And then there is another long, long wait.

[00:44:21] And I don't know how long these waits were.

[00:44:25] They felt like hours.

[00:44:26] Yeah.

[00:44:27] Obviously, they were not.

[00:44:29] And then eventually Mullen finds what he was looking for.

[00:44:34] How would you describe that?

[00:44:37] He.

[00:44:39] He.

[00:44:40] He essentially.

[00:44:40] Let's see.

[00:44:43] What Mullen said.

[00:44:45] Was.

[00:44:48] Like he found something talking about a loop.

[00:44:51] Right.

[00:44:52] And it was like.

[00:44:53] Kind of indicating that Richard Allen.

[00:44:57] Might have.

[00:45:00] Kind of.

[00:45:01] Agreeing that he might have possibly gone the other way.

[00:45:03] But it was kind of.

[00:45:04] It was more ambiguous.

[00:45:06] It was a bit ambiguous.

[00:45:07] So.

[00:45:09] But it seemed to open the door to that.

[00:45:12] I mean.

[00:45:12] Okay.

[00:45:13] Can I just say this?

[00:45:14] I mean.

[00:45:14] I don't know.

[00:45:15] I mean.

[00:45:15] Like I get everyone.

[00:45:16] It's lawyers.

[00:45:17] And they're going to do this.

[00:45:18] And whatever.

[00:45:19] But like.

[00:45:21] Can't.

[00:45:21] I mean.

[00:45:21] Like.

[00:45:22] When we're.

[00:45:22] When we're talking about.

[00:45:24] All of this consternation over like loops.

[00:45:26] And which way did he go.

[00:45:28] And though this was his normal route.

[00:45:29] I mean.

[00:45:30] Like.

[00:45:30] I don't know.

[00:45:31] If you're having a day where you end up murdering some people.

[00:45:33] Maybe you go a different route.

[00:45:35] Or.

[00:45:35] Maybe you lie.

[00:45:36] Or frankly.

[00:45:37] It's freaking.

[00:45:38] You know.

[00:45:38] It's years ago.

[00:45:39] Maybe you just don't remember.

[00:45:41] Like.

[00:45:41] I guess I just.

[00:45:42] I didn't.

[00:45:43] You're not saying he's guilty.

[00:45:44] No.

[00:45:44] I'm not saying he's guilty.

[00:45:45] I'm just saying like.

[00:45:46] I feel like sometimes the defense.

[00:45:48] Like kind of is a little bit black and white.

[00:45:50] In their thinking.

[00:45:50] And they can be very much like.

[00:45:53] You know.

[00:45:53] He would always do this.

[00:45:55] He would never do that.

[00:45:57] And it's like.

[00:45:57] I don't know.

[00:45:58] Sometimes I might drive a different way to target.

[00:46:00] I guess it's just like.

[00:46:01] I'm sick of the defense overstatement.

[00:46:03] I don't.

[00:46:04] That doesn't make him guilty.

[00:46:05] Or even.

[00:46:06] I think.

[00:46:07] I mean.

[00:46:07] It was.

[00:46:07] I really thought Baldwin.

[00:46:09] Had won at first.

[00:46:11] That.

[00:46:11] That round.

[00:46:12] With.

[00:46:13] With Mullen.

[00:46:13] I really did.

[00:46:14] Because I was like.

[00:46:14] Oh dang.

[00:46:15] I think Mullen was just taking a really long time.

[00:46:17] To like read that entire interview.

[00:46:20] Yeah.

[00:46:21] To get to the.

[00:46:22] Like I think he.

[00:46:22] Like.

[00:46:22] I mean.

[00:46:22] I think he read like.

[00:46:25] Dozens of pages or something.

[00:46:27] It was.

[00:46:27] But anyways.

[00:46:28] What did you think about the moment?

[00:46:29] I.

[00:46:29] Again.

[00:46:30] I was.

[00:46:30] I was.

[00:46:31] I literally wrote down.

[00:46:32] He should take the L.

[00:46:34] For Mullen.

[00:46:35] Yeah.

[00:46:36] Because.

[00:46:36] It was.

[00:46:37] It was.

[00:46:37] It was.

[00:46:38] It was.

[00:46:38] It was awkward.

[00:46:38] And I was like.

[00:46:39] Dang.

[00:46:39] Like he's.

[00:46:40] You know.

[00:46:40] Baldwin got him.

[00:46:41] And that.

[00:46:41] That could be pretty.

[00:46:42] Like.

[00:46:42] You know.

[00:46:43] Pretty intense impeachment.

[00:46:44] But then Mullen found something.

[00:46:45] So.

[00:46:45] I mean.

[00:46:46] Like.

[00:46:46] Yeah.

[00:46:46] Can he seem more like a draw.

[00:46:47] law.

[00:46:48] And I.

[00:46:49] Or you know.

[00:46:50] Or even like.

[00:46:51] You know.

[00:46:51] Maybe Baldwin's overstating things a bit.

[00:46:53] And I'm just like.

[00:46:54] I don't know.

[00:46:55] I.

[00:46:56] I.

[00:46:56] I guess I just.

[00:46:58] Do you have a sense of why this is.

[00:47:00] Has.

[00:47:00] Become such a big deal.

[00:47:01] Because.

[00:47:02] Like.

[00:47:03] People can't ever break their habits.

[00:47:04] Or change a route.

[00:47:06] Or anything like that.

[00:47:07] Like.

[00:47:08] Why is it.

[00:47:09] I mean.

[00:47:10] It's obvious.

[00:47:11] Defense attorneys are going defense attorney.

[00:47:13] I know.

[00:47:13] But I just.

[00:47:13] And that means.

[00:47:14] If they find something they can attack.

[00:47:16] Or say.

[00:47:17] Oh.

[00:47:17] Here's a discrepancy.

[00:47:18] These things don't add up.

[00:47:20] Then.

[00:47:21] It's their.

[00:47:22] Basically.

[00:47:23] Their job.

[00:47:23] To poke at it.

[00:47:25] And try to make it sound.

[00:47:25] Naturally.

[00:47:26] I'm not blaming them.

[00:47:26] I'm just more of saying.

[00:47:27] From like.

[00:47:28] A person.

[00:47:29] Who at this point.

[00:47:30] It's just sort of interesting.

[00:47:31] Getting to the truth.

[00:47:32] I found.

[00:47:33] None of this compelling.

[00:47:34] On either side.

[00:47:35] Frankly.

[00:47:35] It was just kind of like.

[00:47:35] Okay.

[00:47:37] You know.

[00:47:38] I mean.

[00:47:38] I'm curious about the video.

[00:47:40] Would love to see how that looks.

[00:47:42] You know.

[00:47:43] Is that.

[00:47:43] Is that.

[00:47:43] Is that.

[00:47:44] Kind of a nice.

[00:47:45] Crisp image.

[00:47:45] That really seems to be.

[00:47:46] Of a Ford focus.

[00:47:48] Is it blurrier than that.

[00:47:49] I don't know.

[00:47:51] It can't be super crisp.

[00:47:52] Because.

[00:47:52] You can't see the license plate.

[00:47:54] No.

[00:47:55] But if.

[00:47:57] I don't know.

[00:47:57] I would just be curious about.

[00:47:59] What quality it is.

[00:48:04] Yeah.

[00:48:05] This was a very contentious.

[00:48:07] Back and forth.

[00:48:08] Yes.

[00:48:10] There were a few juror questions.

[00:48:12] Oh.

[00:48:12] And Nick kept on.

[00:48:13] I will say this.

[00:48:14] Nick McClelland.

[00:48:15] Kept on hitting Baldwin.

[00:48:17] With like.

[00:48:17] Things like.

[00:48:18] You know.

[00:48:18] That he was quote.

[00:48:19] Imputing facts into the question.

[00:48:20] That are just inaccurate.

[00:48:22] Quote.

[00:48:23] Um.

[00:48:25] He's misquoting.

[00:48:27] The.

[00:48:27] The transcript.

[00:48:29] So.

[00:48:29] He kept on.

[00:48:31] Accusing Baldwin himself.

[00:48:32] Of being inaccurate.

[00:48:34] And misstating.

[00:48:35] Now we didn't have the transcript.

[00:48:36] In front of us.

[00:48:37] So we're not able to say.

[00:48:39] We're not able to judge.

[00:48:40] Who's right.

[00:48:41] But.

[00:48:41] That was something.

[00:48:43] Baldwin's accusing Mullen.

[00:48:44] Of lying.

[00:48:45] Well.

[00:48:46] McClellan's accusing Baldwin.

[00:48:47] Of lying.

[00:48:47] So we're having kind of this.

[00:48:49] Showdown here.

[00:48:51] Juror questions.

[00:48:52] To Steve Mullen.

[00:48:54] Uh.

[00:48:54] Were you ever.

[00:48:56] Were you in an interview.

[00:48:57] Where Richard Adlin said.

[00:48:59] He did not remember.

[00:49:00] Which way he took.

[00:49:01] And the answer was.

[00:49:02] Yes.

[00:49:02] He did say that.

[00:49:04] So.

[00:49:05] Another juror question.

[00:49:07] Did you investigate.

[00:49:08] How many black Ford focuses.

[00:49:10] There were in Delphi.

[00:49:12] And the answer to that.

[00:49:14] Was no.

[00:49:15] And the other juror question.

[00:49:16] Was.

[00:49:17] Did you look to see.

[00:49:18] If his other car.

[00:49:21] Was on that.

[00:49:22] Video.

[00:49:23] And the answer to that.

[00:49:24] Was yes.

[00:49:25] He did look.

[00:49:25] And I guess.

[00:49:26] It wasn't.

[00:49:27] Yeah.

[00:49:27] And that was the Ford 500.

[00:49:29] Uh.

[00:49:30] The next witness.

[00:49:31] Also presented by.

[00:49:33] Uh.

[00:49:33] Nick McClellan.

[00:49:34] Was.

[00:49:35] Tony Liggett.

[00:49:37] Tony Liggett.

[00:49:38] Is currently.

[00:49:39] The Carroll County.

[00:49:41] Sheriff.

[00:49:42] In 2017.

[00:49:43] He was.

[00:49:44] A detective.

[00:49:46] A detective.

[00:49:47] And he told the story.

[00:49:49] Of how back in.

[00:49:50] September 2022.

[00:49:51] As we've mentioned many times.

[00:49:53] On this particular episode.

[00:49:55] Kathy Shank.

[00:49:55] Makes this discovery.

[00:49:57] She brings it.

[00:49:58] To him.

[00:49:59] And Tony Liggett.

[00:50:01] Reviews it.

[00:50:01] And it.

[00:50:02] There's some things about it.

[00:50:03] That really gets stuck.

[00:50:04] In his mind.

[00:50:05] Because he's noticing.

[00:50:07] That.

[00:50:08] Uh.

[00:50:08] It has that detail.

[00:50:09] About.

[00:50:10] About.

[00:50:10] The three.

[00:50:11] Girls.

[00:50:12] That he says he saw.

[00:50:14] And.

[00:50:14] He knows.

[00:50:15] From his experience.

[00:50:16] Working this case.

[00:50:17] That the person.

[00:50:19] The three girls.

[00:50:20] Saw.

[00:50:21] Was.

[00:50:21] In his mind.

[00:50:22] Bridge guy.

[00:50:23] So if this guy.

[00:50:24] Is saying.

[00:50:25] He saw those girls.

[00:50:26] You know.

[00:50:27] The pieces are coming together.

[00:50:28] In his mind.

[00:50:29] And he's thinking.

[00:50:30] This could very well be.

[00:50:32] Bridge guy.

[00:50:33] Absolutely.

[00:50:34] He talked about.

[00:50:36] Um.

[00:50:37] You know.

[00:50:37] In terms of.

[00:50:39] Evidence.

[00:50:39] Around this.

[00:50:40] Uh.

[00:50:41] Time stamp.

[00:50:42] On.

[00:50:42] Uh.

[00:50:43] One of the pictures.

[00:50:44] Taken by.

[00:50:44] That group of girls.

[00:50:45] Yes.

[00:50:46] For 1.

[00:50:46] 26 p.m.

[00:50:48] Um.

[00:50:48] And this is at a bench.

[00:50:50] Not.

[00:50:50] Not too far away.

[00:50:52] From the freedom bridge.

[00:50:54] And.

[00:50:55] Um.

[00:50:56] You know.

[00:50:57] I.

[00:50:58] Talking about the.

[00:50:59] Betsy Blair.

[00:51:00] Seeing this guy on the first platform.

[00:51:02] Sarah Carbaugh.

[00:51:03] All these.

[00:51:04] All these different kind of witnesses.

[00:51:05] Where it's kind of.

[00:51:06] Hemming in bridge guy.

[00:51:08] And showing his movements.

[00:51:11] And then he talked about.

[00:51:13] The video that Libby took.

[00:51:16] And talked about how it had been.

[00:51:19] Enhanced.

[00:51:20] Basically to stabilize it.

[00:51:22] I think what they did.

[00:51:24] Was they took.

[00:51:26] The image of Abby.

[00:51:28] Walking across the bridge.

[00:51:29] And then they keep that right side up.

[00:51:31] And as much in the center.

[00:51:33] Of the image as they can.

[00:51:34] And they also improve the audio.

[00:51:36] And then they played.

[00:51:37] That version of the video.

[00:51:39] From start to finish.

[00:51:39] And this time I actually saw bridge guy.

[00:51:41] And I saw him very clearly.

[00:51:42] And what I saw absolutely.

[00:51:44] Friggin terrified me.

[00:51:45] This was awful.

[00:51:46] Talk about it.

[00:51:47] Well this time.

[00:51:48] Because it's not.

[00:51:49] Because it's not swirling around.

[00:51:51] I think.

[00:51:53] I had the impression like.

[00:51:54] Oh he must be really far away.

[00:51:56] Or kind of this small dot.

[00:51:57] Because I can't see him.

[00:51:58] Because I think I was just disoriented.

[00:52:00] And like you're taking in.

[00:52:01] When you first watch this thing.

[00:52:02] You're taking in so much information.

[00:52:04] You're like.

[00:52:04] Okay I'm seeing the bridge.

[00:52:07] Now some shoes.

[00:52:08] Now Abby.

[00:52:09] And things are twirling around.

[00:52:11] It's just.

[00:52:12] It's a lot.

[00:52:13] And like you're trying to listen.

[00:52:14] To what they're saying.

[00:52:15] And it's just difficult.

[00:52:16] With it stabilized.

[00:52:18] You can very.

[00:52:19] Very.

[00:52:20] Very clearly.

[00:52:21] See bridge guy.

[00:52:22] Behind Abby.

[00:52:23] I am not.

[00:52:24] I would be a useless eyewitness.

[00:52:26] Because I think.

[00:52:27] I have trouble.

[00:52:29] As you know.

[00:52:30] Dealing with.

[00:52:32] I think time and distance.

[00:52:33] I don't have a really good sense.

[00:52:35] Of what.

[00:52:37] How far away things are typically.

[00:52:39] Yes.

[00:52:40] And to me.

[00:52:41] He looked.

[00:52:43] Disturbingly close.

[00:52:45] He looked disturbingly close.

[00:52:46] To Abby.

[00:52:48] I also felt the sound.

[00:52:50] Was much clearer.

[00:52:51] I heard all the things.

[00:52:52] I heard before.

[00:52:53] I heard them.

[00:52:55] Much clearer.

[00:52:57] And.

[00:52:59] They asked Tony Liggett.

[00:53:01] What.

[00:53:01] What do you hear on this?

[00:53:02] And he.

[00:53:03] First of all.

[00:53:03] He said.

[00:53:03] It's really easier.

[00:53:04] To hear.

[00:53:06] The sounds on this.

[00:53:08] If you use headphones.

[00:53:09] And he's listened to it.

[00:53:10] Hundreds and hundreds.

[00:53:12] Of times.

[00:53:13] What he says.

[00:53:14] He hears.

[00:53:15] This is his interpretation.

[00:53:17] Abby says.

[00:53:18] Is he right here?

[00:53:20] Don't leave me up here.

[00:53:23] Libby.

[00:53:24] Says.

[00:53:25] See this is the path.

[00:53:27] That be a gun.

[00:53:29] No path here.

[00:53:30] Have to go down.

[00:53:31] And then the man says.

[00:53:34] Guys.

[00:53:35] And the girls say.

[00:53:36] Hi.

[00:53:37] Back.

[00:53:37] And then.

[00:53:38] Liggett says.

[00:53:39] He hears the son.

[00:53:40] The sound of a gun rack.

[00:53:42] And at that point.

[00:53:43] The.

[00:53:43] The defense.

[00:53:45] Objected.

[00:53:46] But I want to say.

[00:53:47] I heard the gun rack.

[00:53:49] When we.

[00:53:49] The video was played.

[00:53:51] In court.

[00:53:51] The other day.

[00:53:52] It's very subtle.

[00:53:53] But I noticed it.

[00:53:54] And I heard it even more clearly.

[00:53:56] On this enhanced version.

[00:53:57] So you heard it too?

[00:53:58] Yes.

[00:53:59] And then.

[00:54:00] After the sound of the gun rack.

[00:54:02] The man says.

[00:54:03] Down the hill.

[00:54:04] It's.

[00:54:05] It's even more horrifying.

[00:54:06] When it's stabilized.

[00:54:07] I swear to God.

[00:54:08] It was.

[00:54:08] I mean.

[00:54:08] The other one was scary.

[00:54:10] But this is just awful.

[00:54:11] It's just awful.

[00:54:12] To see them get.

[00:54:13] Like.

[00:54:13] Hunted down.

[00:54:14] By this.

[00:54:15] Creep.

[00:54:18] He.

[00:54:18] He talked about.

[00:54:20] Like it talked again.

[00:54:21] Oh.

[00:54:21] And that was stricken from the record.

[00:54:23] The note about the.

[00:54:23] The gun rack.

[00:54:24] Yeah.

[00:54:24] There was.

[00:54:24] There was an objection.

[00:54:25] What.

[00:54:26] What was the objection based on?

[00:54:27] Because it was granted.

[00:54:28] I mean.

[00:54:28] Judge Gola.

[00:54:30] Sustained it.

[00:54:32] I think.

[00:54:33] Essentially.

[00:54:34] It's a little bit of speculation.

[00:54:35] Speculation.

[00:54:36] Because.

[00:54:37] The sound I heard.

[00:54:39] Was consistent.

[00:54:39] With the sound of a gun rack.

[00:54:41] But basically.

[00:54:42] You don't see a gun.

[00:54:43] All I know is.

[00:54:43] I really.

[00:54:44] I heard a metallic noise.

[00:54:45] Yeah.

[00:54:45] Maybe there's something else.

[00:54:47] There.

[00:54:48] That could have explained it.

[00:54:48] I don't know.

[00:54:49] Sounds like a gun rack to me.

[00:54:51] But.

[00:54:52] Yeah.

[00:54:52] I agree.

[00:54:53] But I.

[00:54:53] I understand.

[00:54:54] And again.

[00:54:55] Like.

[00:54:55] You know.

[00:54:55] She sustained some.

[00:54:56] Some defense objections too.

[00:54:58] I think.

[00:54:59] The defense ran up more.

[00:55:01] More objections.

[00:55:02] Because.

[00:55:03] I think.

[00:55:03] Some of their.

[00:55:05] Cross examinations.

[00:55:06] Were pretty.

[00:55:07] Off the wall.

[00:55:08] Frankly.

[00:55:08] But.

[00:55:09] Yeah.

[00:55:10] I don't know.

[00:55:11] How much.

[00:55:12] Detail.

[00:55:12] We have to go into.

[00:55:13] About this next section.

[00:55:15] Because.

[00:55:15] It's.

[00:55:17] You know.

[00:55:17] Mullen talked about.

[00:55:18] The things he did.

[00:55:19] With Liggett.

[00:55:19] And in this section.

[00:55:20] Liggett talked about.

[00:55:21] The things he did.

[00:55:22] With Mullen.

[00:55:22] Which is basically.

[00:55:23] The same thing.

[00:55:25] He went.

[00:55:25] Liggett goes to CVS.

[00:55:26] He takes pictures.

[00:55:27] Of.

[00:55:29] Richard Allen's car.

[00:55:30] Here's a new detail.

[00:55:32] He noted.

[00:55:32] That.

[00:55:33] The.

[00:55:33] Richard Allen's car.

[00:55:34] Was parked.

[00:55:35] Backed in.

[00:55:36] And people who saw.

[00:55:37] The vehicle parked.

[00:55:38] At CPS.

[00:55:39] Said that it also.

[00:55:40] Was parked.

[00:55:41] Backed in.

[00:55:42] He also found that.

[00:55:43] Allen had a lifetime.

[00:55:44] Handgun permit.

[00:55:47] They found.

[00:55:48] On that Hoosier Harvest.

[00:55:49] Video.

[00:55:50] A car whose description.

[00:55:51] Matched.

[00:55:52] Richard Allen's car.

[00:55:54] So they go.

[00:55:55] To Richard Allen's.

[00:55:56] House.

[00:55:57] And ask.

[00:55:59] For an interview.

[00:56:01] And Richard.

[00:56:02] Allen.

[00:56:02] As we mentioned.

[00:56:03] A minute ago.

[00:56:05] He talks about.

[00:56:06] Yeah.

[00:56:06] I was there that day.

[00:56:08] I saw these three girls.

[00:56:09] They were leaving.

[00:56:10] As I was arriving.

[00:56:14] Yeah.

[00:56:14] He said that.

[00:56:15] He was out on the rails.

[00:56:17] But he.

[00:56:17] On the trails rather.

[00:56:18] He changed the time.

[00:56:19] From noon to 1 30.

[00:56:20] As mentioned.

[00:56:21] And he said.

[00:56:21] He was wearing.

[00:56:22] Either a blue.

[00:56:22] Or a black.

[00:56:23] Carhartt jacket.

[00:56:24] As well as.

[00:56:25] A skull cap.

[00:56:27] That he would keep.

[00:56:28] In the pocket.

[00:56:29] Of his jacket.

[00:56:31] And he also.

[00:56:32] Liggett said.

[00:56:33] Quote.

[00:56:33] He was kind of.

[00:56:34] Wishy-washy.

[00:56:35] About where he parked.

[00:56:37] Then they talked.

[00:56:38] About.

[00:56:39] The fact.

[00:56:39] That there was.

[00:56:40] A search done.

[00:56:41] At Richard Allen's.

[00:56:42] House.

[00:56:42] On I believe.

[00:56:43] October 13th.

[00:56:44] 2022.

[00:56:45] We're going to hear.

[00:56:51] Liggett says.

[00:56:52] One thing they found.

[00:56:54] Was a 40 caliber.

[00:56:55] Gun.

[00:56:57] And I.

[00:56:58] Thought this is an interesting.

[00:57:00] Detail.

[00:57:03] Richard Allen.

[00:57:04] Had kind of.

[00:57:05] A keepsake.

[00:57:06] Box.

[00:57:06] Where he kept.

[00:57:08] Some special pictures.

[00:57:09] A letter from his mother.

[00:57:11] And also.

[00:57:12] In there.

[00:57:13] Was one.

[00:57:14] Unspent round.

[00:57:21] So.

[00:57:21] Some sentimental value.

[00:57:23] To him.

[00:57:24] But.

[00:57:24] I'm sure we can speculate.

[00:57:26] They found.

[00:57:27] In the home.

[00:57:28] A blue Carhartt jacket.

[00:57:30] Which.

[00:57:30] Is what.

[00:57:30] Bridge guy.

[00:57:31] Appears to be wearing.

[00:57:32] In the video.

[00:57:34] In the nightstand.

[00:57:36] In the master bedroom.

[00:57:37] They found.

[00:57:37] Allen's.

[00:57:38] Sig Sauer.

[00:57:39] Handgun.

[00:57:39] Yes.

[00:57:40] Yes.

[00:57:41] And.

[00:57:42] And.

[00:57:43] When asked about.

[00:57:44] Well.

[00:57:45] Are you sure.

[00:57:45] That was his side of the bed.

[00:57:47] Liggett mentioned.

[00:57:48] That.

[00:57:49] Allen's.

[00:57:49] CVS.

[00:57:50] Clothing.

[00:57:50] Was piled up.

[00:57:51] On.

[00:57:52] On that side of the bed.

[00:57:53] On the right side of the bed.

[00:57:54] So.

[00:57:54] He.

[00:57:55] That was a kind of good indication.

[00:57:56] That was his side.

[00:57:57] And then.

[00:57:58] Rosie began.

[00:57:59] The cross examination.

[00:58:01] And.

[00:58:02] He started talking about.

[00:58:03] Oh.

[00:58:03] When all this was going on.

[00:58:05] The sheriff's election.

[00:58:07] Was going on.

[00:58:08] Hmm.

[00:58:08] Folks.

[00:58:09] And.

[00:58:10] Nick.

[00:58:10] McCleeland.

[00:58:11] Objected.

[00:58:12] And there was such.

[00:58:13] Disgust.

[00:58:14] In his voice.

[00:58:16] When he said.

[00:58:17] Is the defense.

[00:58:18] Contending.

[00:58:19] That he made.

[00:58:20] In arrest.

[00:58:21] With no evidence.

[00:58:22] To better his position.

[00:58:23] In his election.

[00:58:25] With no evidence.

[00:58:26] And there was such.

[00:58:28] Disgust.

[00:58:29] In his voice.

[00:58:30] When he said it.

[00:58:31] And it just.

[00:58:32] Occurred.

[00:58:33] To me.

[00:58:33] When he said it.

[00:58:35] Uh.

[00:58:35] This defense.

[00:58:37] Team.

[00:58:37] For reasons.

[00:58:38] I have never.

[00:58:40] Understood.

[00:58:41] I have never.

[00:58:42] They have really.

[00:58:44] Been assiduously.

[00:58:44] Courting.

[00:58:46] YouTube.

[00:58:47] YouTubers.

[00:58:48] And not just.

[00:58:48] Any YouTubers.

[00:58:49] The most.

[00:58:51] Irresponsible.

[00:58:52] Untrusty.

[00:58:53] YouTubers.

[00:58:53] Untrustworthy.

[00:58:55] Yes.

[00:58:55] The most.

[00:58:56] Irresponsible.

[00:58:57] Untrustworthy.

[00:58:57] YouTubers.

[00:58:58] Imaginal.

[00:58:58] They've made them.

[00:58:59] Their base.

[00:59:00] They've made them.

[00:59:00] Their focus group.

[00:59:02] They love.

[00:59:02] YouTubers.

[00:59:03] They court.

[00:59:04] These YouTubers.

[00:59:05] So much.

[00:59:05] They actually have.

[00:59:06] A YouTuber.

[00:59:07] Sitting in a defense seat.

[00:59:09] So.

[00:59:10] They're not shy about it.

[00:59:11] But the problem is.

[00:59:13] When you court.

[00:59:14] These.

[00:59:14] These particular.

[00:59:15] Type of YouTubers.

[00:59:16] When you make.

[00:59:17] These particular.

[00:59:18] Type of YouTubers.

[00:59:19] Your focus group.

[00:59:20] You think.

[00:59:21] That the things.

[00:59:22] They respond to.

[00:59:23] Is what other people.

[00:59:25] Will respond to.

[00:59:26] But when.

[00:59:27] McClellan.

[00:59:28] Indicated.

[00:59:29] His disgust.

[00:59:30] With this.

[00:59:31] Notion.

[00:59:32] That this.

[00:59:33] The rest.

[00:59:33] Was somehow.

[00:59:34] Engineered.

[00:59:34] Because of the.

[00:59:35] Election.

[00:59:36] I looked over.

[00:59:37] At the jury.

[00:59:38] And they were.

[00:59:39] Responding to.

[00:59:39] McClellan.

[00:59:40] And also.

[00:59:41] Keep in mind.

[00:59:41] We had just heard.

[00:59:43] Kathy Shank.

[00:59:44] Discovered this tip.

[00:59:45] On her.

[00:59:46] Late husband's.

[00:59:47] Birthday.

[00:59:48] And now.

[00:59:48] They're saying.

[00:59:49] I guess.

[00:59:50] She was part of.

[00:59:50] A conspiracy.

[00:59:51] Oh.

[00:59:51] We're all part of.

[00:59:52] The conspiracy.

[00:59:53] At this point.

[00:59:53] Kevin.

[00:59:54] I mean like.

[00:59:54] Because if you think.

[00:59:55] This was just.

[00:59:55] Cooked up.

[00:59:56] Because of the election.

[00:59:57] Then she has to be in on it.

[00:59:59] And I don't think.

[01:00:00] That's an idea.

[01:00:01] That would really.

[01:00:01] Go well.

[01:00:03] In front of this jury.

[01:00:04] From what I saw.

[01:00:06] YouTubers.

[01:00:07] These irresponsible.

[01:00:07] YouTubers.

[01:00:08] In particular.

[01:00:09] Love that sort of thing.

[01:00:10] Oh.

[01:00:10] And I saw one of the.

[01:00:11] Defense investigators.

[01:00:12] In that row.

[01:00:12] Like nodding vigorously.

[01:00:13] At this point.

[01:00:14] It's like.

[01:00:14] Yeah.

[01:00:14] I don't.

[01:00:15] I don't think.

[01:00:15] This is carrying.

[01:00:16] As much water.

[01:00:17] With most normal people.

[01:00:18] I think.

[01:00:19] I think.

[01:00:19] They should have picked.

[01:00:21] A focus group.

[01:00:22] Of normal people.

[01:00:24] Let me just.

[01:00:25] Say this.

[01:00:25] How about you attack.

[01:00:26] Law enforcement.

[01:00:27] I'm.

[01:00:27] Yeah.

[01:00:28] I'm going to say it.

[01:00:28] About the mistakes made.

[01:00:30] Yeah.

[01:00:30] About things like.

[01:00:31] The delay.

[01:00:32] Doesn't this indicate.

[01:00:33] Sloppiness.

[01:00:33] Focus.

[01:00:34] Focus on that.

[01:00:35] I want to say.

[01:00:36] One more thing.

[01:00:36] About this sheriff's election.

[01:00:38] Thing.

[01:00:38] Because it's something.

[01:00:38] That people have been saying.

[01:00:39] For a long time.

[01:00:40] That maybe this was cooked up.

[01:00:42] For the sheriff's election.

[01:00:44] I want to tell you.

[01:00:45] A fact of life.

[01:00:47] About small town Indiana.

[01:00:48] Because I grew up.

[01:00:49] In small town Indiana.

[01:00:53] These are very red counties.

[01:00:55] If you.

[01:00:56] You.

[01:00:56] Obviously go out and vote.

[01:00:58] I encourage you to vote.

[01:00:59] But if you live in one of these towns.

[01:01:01] That is a very red county.

[01:01:05] Whoever gets the Republican nomination.

[01:01:08] And whoever has the support.

[01:01:10] Of the organized Republican party.

[01:01:13] In that county.

[01:01:14] They're going to win.

[01:01:15] They're going to win.

[01:01:16] People do down ballot voting.

[01:01:18] That's how.

[01:01:19] That's just a fact.

[01:01:20] Of life.

[01:01:21] Tony Liggett had the support.

[01:01:24] Of the Republican party.

[01:01:26] Some independent ran against him.

[01:01:27] But I'm here to tell you.

[01:01:29] It was not.

[01:01:29] It was not.

[01:01:29] It was not a razor thin margin.

[01:01:32] It was not a razor thin margin.

[01:01:33] And I'm going to tell you.

[01:01:34] He would have won that election.

[01:01:36] Even if the arrest had not been made.

[01:01:38] Yes.

[01:01:39] There's no question in my mind.

[01:01:40] These people are delusional.

[01:01:43] And.

[01:01:44] Just keep in mind.

[01:01:45] Again.

[01:01:46] Kathy Shank.

[01:01:47] Discovered this on her late husband's birthday.

[01:01:49] Day.

[01:01:50] And.

[01:01:50] It seems.

[01:01:51] We now know.

[01:01:52] Every step.

[01:01:53] The investigators made.

[01:01:55] And would we have preferred for them.

[01:01:57] Not to do anything.

[01:01:58] Or to wait till after.

[01:01:59] The election.

[01:02:00] Well.

[01:02:00] Yeah.

[01:02:01] That's my question.

[01:02:02] All right.

[01:02:02] So you get to probable cause.

[01:02:04] To arrest a guy.

[01:02:05] For brutally murdering two kids.

[01:02:08] And what you're going to.

[01:02:08] Oh.

[01:02:09] The optics are so bad.

[01:02:10] You know what.

[01:02:11] Why don't we do this in December.

[01:02:13] Maybe you'll kill again.

[01:02:14] But I mean like.

[01:02:15] Like.

[01:02:15] What are we talking about.

[01:02:16] You know.

[01:02:17] I mean like.

[01:02:17] Like I.

[01:02:19] Oh God.

[01:02:20] He was always going to win that election.

[01:02:22] It wasn't.

[01:02:23] He wasn't particularly close.

[01:02:25] And.

[01:02:25] And as you said.

[01:02:26] You know.

[01:02:27] Anyone.

[01:02:28] I.

[01:02:28] I looked at the election records.

[01:02:30] In Carroll County.

[01:02:31] For.

[01:02:31] For the sheriff's race.

[01:02:33] You know.

[01:02:33] It was always going to.

[01:02:35] Whoever got the Republican nomination.

[01:02:38] And had the institutional backing.

[01:02:40] And that was it.

[01:02:41] Okay.

[01:02:43] An independent coming in.

[01:02:44] And scooping up some extra votes.

[01:02:46] And whatever.

[01:02:47] And becoming contentious on social media.

[01:02:49] Does not make it.

[01:02:51] Anything.

[01:02:52] Anything else.

[01:02:53] I'm sorry.

[01:02:54] Like.

[01:02:55] I guess I'm just like.

[01:02:56] And you know what.

[01:02:57] I think they lose people.

[01:02:58] Because instead of focusing on like.

[01:02:59] Maybe actual mistakes.

[01:03:01] That you could criticize.

[01:03:02] It just becomes this whole.

[01:03:04] Like you have to buy into this.

[01:03:06] Corrupt Carroll County.

[01:03:08] You know.

[01:03:09] Mega conspiracy.

[01:03:10] And I just think it's stupid.

[01:03:12] I don't.

[01:03:12] From what I saw.

[01:03:14] The faces of those jurors.

[01:03:15] I don't think it plays with them.

[01:03:17] I don't think it plays with them.

[01:03:18] I think these guys.

[01:03:19] End up just looking kind of.

[01:03:20] I don't know.

[01:03:21] Ridiculous.

[01:03:21] They made a bizarre decision.

[01:03:23] To go after these YouTubers.

[01:03:26] Well you know.

[01:03:26] Brad Rosie.

[01:03:27] Every time he brings.

[01:03:27] You know this has a very large following.

[01:03:29] On social media.

[01:03:30] Like sounding giddy.

[01:03:31] Talking about it.

[01:03:31] Like oh.

[01:03:32] The media has been paying a lot of attention.

[01:03:34] It's like.

[01:03:34] You know.

[01:03:34] It's just.

[01:03:35] I don't know.

[01:03:35] There's something very like.

[01:03:36] Slimy about it.

[01:03:37] It's like.

[01:03:38] It doesn't sound.

[01:03:39] It doesn't sound.

[01:03:40] The way they.

[01:03:40] The way he talks about it.

[01:03:41] Like you kind of are like.

[01:03:42] Okay.

[01:03:42] Well you're obviously really excited about it.

[01:03:44] I don't know if anyone else here is.

[01:03:46] But it just.

[01:03:47] It.

[01:03:48] They.

[01:03:49] I don't.

[01:03:50] I feel like.

[01:03:51] I said in the beginning.

[01:03:52] I was kind of picking on Rosie.

[01:03:54] That he had an.

[01:03:55] Tone problem.

[01:03:56] Or an optics problem.

[01:03:58] But today.

[01:03:58] I kind of saw it as.

[01:04:00] Everyone on the defense team.

[01:04:02] Running into that a little bit.

[01:04:04] They did not bring their A game.

[01:04:05] No they did not.

[01:04:06] That.

[01:04:06] Rosie also.

[01:04:08] Asked.

[01:04:09] Sheriff Liggett.

[01:04:09] Would you acknowledge.

[01:04:10] That early on.

[01:04:11] There was a breach.

[01:04:12] In the crime scene.

[01:04:13] Oh that's rich.

[01:04:14] Leaked photos.

[01:04:15] And Liggett looked puzzled.

[01:04:16] And said.

[01:04:17] When was this?

[01:04:18] Because of course.

[01:04:18] The leaked crime scene photos.

[01:04:20] That everybody knows about.

[01:04:21] Was just a year ago.

[01:04:22] And the people responsible.

[01:04:23] For leaking them.

[01:04:24] Where they came from.

[01:04:26] The photos were leaked.

[01:04:27] From the defense team.

[01:04:28] By Mitch Westerman.

[01:04:29] Andrew Baldwin's.

[01:04:30] Former employee.

[01:04:31] And friend.

[01:04:32] So I mean.

[01:04:33] I mean.

[01:04:34] It's pretty bold for them.

[01:04:35] Because they had.

[01:04:35] Lack security.

[01:04:37] At the defense team's office.

[01:04:38] At the very least.

[01:04:39] And that's what led to.

[01:04:40] But I think it's bold.

[01:04:41] To bring that up.

[01:04:42] I think what they're referring to here.

[01:04:43] Is.

[01:04:44] What were purported to be.

[01:04:46] Leaked searcher photos.

[01:04:48] That were like.

[01:04:49] Texted to somebody.

[01:04:50] And then leaked.

[01:04:50] And what they show.

[01:04:51] Is sort of some blurry pictures.

[01:04:53] Of what looks.

[01:04:54] A little bit like.

[01:04:55] Clothing in the creek.

[01:04:56] Not very high quality.

[01:04:58] Ultimately.

[01:04:59] Those are searcher volunteers.

[01:05:01] Is it ideal.

[01:05:02] That those got out?

[01:05:03] Absolutely not.

[01:05:04] Is it.

[01:05:05] Is it somehow like.

[01:05:07] Law enforcement's fault?

[01:05:09] No.

[01:05:09] I mean.

[01:05:10] That's on whoever.

[01:05:11] Texted them out.

[01:05:11] From the search parties.

[01:05:13] I mean.

[01:05:13] Like.

[01:05:13] I get.

[01:05:14] Right.

[01:05:15] If you want to argue.

[01:05:17] That law enforcement.

[01:05:19] Should have like.

[01:05:20] Seized everyone's phones.

[01:05:21] Let me finish.

[01:05:22] If you want to argue.

[01:05:24] That law enforcement.

[01:05:25] Bears responsibility.

[01:05:26] For the leaked searcher photos.

[01:05:29] Then you need to.

[01:05:30] Accept responsibility.

[01:05:32] For your own role.

[01:05:33] In the leaked crime scene photos.

[01:05:35] Which actually show.

[01:05:36] Bodies.

[01:05:37] Because the role.

[01:05:38] Of the defense attorneys.

[01:05:39] In that.

[01:05:40] Was much more prominent.

[01:05:42] Than the role of law enforcement.

[01:05:43] In the searcher photos.

[01:05:45] Mm-hmm.

[01:05:45] I concur.

[01:05:47] They were also talking.

[01:05:49] About the sticks.

[01:05:50] On the bodies.

[01:05:51] And whether they were there.

[01:05:52] To conceal.

[01:05:53] Or to carry some hidden message.

[01:05:56] And Rosie said.

[01:05:58] You would agree with me.

[01:05:59] That whoever.

[01:06:00] Did that.

[01:06:00] Placing the sticks.

[01:06:01] On the bodies.

[01:06:02] Did a poor job.

[01:06:03] Of concealing them.

[01:06:05] And Liggett said.

[01:06:05] Well.

[01:06:06] No one saw them.

[01:06:08] Yeah.

[01:06:09] Also.

[01:06:10] I mean.

[01:06:10] I guess.

[01:06:10] Again.

[01:06:11] I.

[01:06:13] I have a problem.

[01:06:14] With some of the.

[01:06:15] Black and white thinking.

[01:06:16] Of the defense team.

[01:06:17] It's like.

[01:06:18] The.

[01:06:19] I can immediately think.

[01:06:20] Of a scenario.

[01:06:21] That covers this.

[01:06:22] And I'm not.

[01:06:22] And again.

[01:06:22] I'm not saying.

[01:06:23] That I'm right.

[01:06:25] I'm just saying.

[01:06:25] That I don't like being told.

[01:06:27] Like.

[01:06:27] Well if not this.

[01:06:28] Then it must be that.

[01:06:29] And it's like.

[01:06:30] No.

[01:06:30] I mean.

[01:06:31] Who's to say.

[01:06:32] That he.

[01:06:33] Some.

[01:06:33] Whoever the killer was.

[01:06:34] Started to cover them up.

[01:06:35] For whatever reason.

[01:06:36] And then felt like.

[01:06:37] I just need to get out of here.

[01:06:39] Or.

[01:06:39] Heard something.

[01:06:40] And that freaked them out.

[01:06:41] I mean like.

[01:06:42] I can immediately think.

[01:06:43] Of a scenario.

[01:06:44] Where it's covering.

[01:06:45] It.

[01:06:46] They're trying to cover them up.

[01:06:47] Either to conceal them.

[01:06:48] Or to undo the crime.

[01:06:50] In the person's own mind.

[01:06:51] And just gets out of there.

[01:06:53] Without completing it.

[01:06:54] I mean that's an.

[01:06:56] That's pretty obvious.

[01:06:57] Right.

[01:06:57] I mean like.

[01:06:58] It doesn't have to be the guy.

[01:06:59] Being like.

[01:06:59] Putting a couple sticks.

[01:07:00] And being like.

[01:07:00] Well done.

[01:07:01] I mean.

[01:07:02] I guess it's just like.

[01:07:03] I don't understand.

[01:07:05] I.

[01:07:06] I.

[01:07:06] I don't like it.

[01:07:07] When it's like.

[01:07:07] I can think of a scenario.

[01:07:09] That completely thwarts.

[01:07:10] That line of thinking immediately.

[01:07:12] I think playing it closer.

[01:07:13] The.

[01:07:14] The.

[01:07:14] Closer to the vest.

[01:07:15] For the defense team.

[01:07:16] Would have been a boon.

[01:07:17] Because it wouldn't have forced the jurors.

[01:07:18] To pick between like.

[01:07:20] Obvious reason.

[01:07:21] And logic.

[01:07:22] And nuance.

[01:07:23] And like.

[01:07:24] Whatever Brad Rose.

[01:07:25] He's yelling about.

[01:07:26] They spent an awful lot of time.

[01:07:28] Attacking Sarah Carball.

[01:07:30] And there was one particular.

[01:07:33] Exchange.

[01:07:34] Around that.

[01:07:36] Pardon me.

[01:07:38] That I believe you wanted to highlight.

[01:07:39] Light.

[01:07:41] Yes.

[01:07:42] I did.

[01:07:43] I was.

[01:07:44] I was pretty.

[01:07:46] I was pretty.

[01:07:47] Shocked by this.

[01:07:48] I'm kind of flipping around.

[01:07:50] Because I was taking a lot of notes.

[01:07:51] At this.

[01:07:52] At this point.

[01:07:53] Um.

[01:07:55] So let me.

[01:07:56] Let me try to find that.

[01:07:57] For a minute.

[01:07:57] So they're.

[01:07:58] They're talking about the muddy and bloody witness.

[01:08:00] Um.

[01:08:02] Rosie.

[01:08:03] Like.

[01:08:04] Okay.

[01:08:04] It seemed.

[01:08:05] Clear to me that.

[01:08:06] What Sarah Carball was talking about.

[01:08:08] And again.

[01:08:09] Like.

[01:08:09] The defense should be pushing back on these witnesses.

[01:08:11] I mean.

[01:08:11] Like.

[01:08:11] That's their job.

[01:08:12] I mean.

[01:08:12] It's not like.

[01:08:13] They don't need to like.

[01:08:14] Take the witnesses out to tea.

[01:08:16] And you know.

[01:08:17] But I.

[01:08:17] I think there's a way to.

[01:08:19] Firmly push back.

[01:08:20] And defend your client.

[01:08:21] Without sort of.

[01:08:22] Ending up looking kind of like a jerk.

[01:08:23] In the process.

[01:08:25] Yeah.

[01:08:25] Is that fair to say?

[01:08:25] Sometimes you want to look like a jerk.

[01:08:27] Sometimes you want to go.

[01:08:28] Go crazy.

[01:08:30] But other times.

[01:08:31] I think you actually might benefit.

[01:08:32] From just being kind of like.

[01:08:33] Like.

[01:08:34] You know.

[01:08:36] Firm.

[01:08:36] Logical.

[01:08:38] I don't know.

[01:08:39] And I thought Baldwin.

[01:08:40] In.

[01:08:40] In his previous time.

[01:08:42] Crossing her.

[01:08:42] Did a good job of at least being kind of patient.

[01:08:44] Even though.

[01:08:45] I thought there was some level of kind of.

[01:08:47] Frustration or anger there.

[01:08:50] Like.

[01:08:50] He wasn't necessarily like.

[01:08:51] Yelling at her or anything.

[01:08:53] But in this situation.

[01:08:55] Rosie's basically like.

[01:08:57] You know.

[01:08:58] Did you know that Sarah Carbaugh.

[01:09:00] Sarah Carbaugh talked about like.

[01:09:01] Having extreme anxiety.

[01:09:02] And different mental health struggles.

[01:09:04] And so like.

[01:09:05] I think that is something.

[01:09:06] Like if.

[01:09:07] I mean.

[01:09:07] It's.

[01:09:08] I thought this trial was going to be about mental health.

[01:09:10] And like how people can.

[01:09:11] You know.

[01:09:11] Do things that.

[01:09:12] You don't expect them to do.

[01:09:14] Because they're under a lot of stress.

[01:09:15] Which is.

[01:09:16] You know.

[01:09:16] Sort of what they're arguing for Richard Allen.

[01:09:18] But apparently.

[01:09:19] But apparently when.

[01:09:19] This woman sees something.

[01:09:21] That turns out to be horrifying.

[01:09:24] Rosie's basically bashing her.

[01:09:25] For spending three weeks panicking.

[01:09:27] And like.

[01:09:27] Did you know that?

[01:09:28] And.

[01:09:29] And Liggett just like.

[01:09:30] Fired back with.

[01:09:31] Like.

[01:09:31] You know.

[01:09:31] He.

[01:09:32] I think Liggett did an amazing job.

[01:09:34] Countering some of this.

[01:09:35] I thought he was very calm.

[01:09:37] But he was kind of hitting back a bit.

[01:09:39] Here and there.

[01:09:39] And he said.

[01:09:40] No.

[01:09:41] Two girls were killed.

[01:09:42] I can understand panicking.

[01:09:44] So it's like.

[01:09:45] I just felt like Rosie.

[01:09:46] Handed him an opportunity to look like.

[01:09:48] I don't know.

[01:09:49] Like he had some emotional intelligence.

[01:09:51] And was empathetic with somebody.

[01:09:52] Another human being.

[01:09:54] Like.

[01:09:55] I guess it was just like.

[01:09:57] I don't know.

[01:09:58] Like.

[01:09:58] Why are we doing.

[01:09:59] Like.

[01:09:59] Why do it that way?

[01:10:02] Another point.

[01:10:03] Rosie was saying.

[01:10:04] You know.

[01:10:04] In this video.

[01:10:07] You see bridge guy.

[01:10:09] And he's.

[01:10:10] Then.

[01:10:10] Goes off screen.

[01:10:11] And only then.

[01:10:12] Do we hear.

[01:10:14] The voice.

[01:10:15] Is it possible.

[01:10:16] That this speaker.

[01:10:18] Who says.

[01:10:19] Guys down the hill.

[01:10:20] Is not bridge guy.

[01:10:21] But just someone else.

[01:10:21] Who basically.

[01:10:22] Just happened to be there.

[01:10:23] And Liggett said.

[01:10:24] Well that's a stress.

[01:10:25] That was amazing.

[01:10:27] There was one.

[01:10:28] A point.

[01:10:28] Where you know.

[01:10:29] They're really trying to make this a thing.

[01:10:31] With the FBI.

[01:10:33] Like.

[01:10:33] Oh the FBI was kicked out.

[01:10:35] And.

[01:10:36] And.

[01:10:37] Like it's like.

[01:10:38] You know.

[01:10:38] Like oh the FBI came in.

[01:10:40] And there was tension.

[01:10:40] And like it was just like.

[01:10:42] No they helped.

[01:10:42] Like he just seemed like.

[01:10:44] He wasn't like angry.

[01:10:45] He was just more of like.

[01:10:46] Baffled.

[01:10:47] And.

[01:10:48] Then.

[01:10:49] Later on.

[01:10:50] You know.

[01:10:50] They were like.

[01:10:50] Well you know.

[01:10:51] Superintendent Carter.

[01:10:52] Doug Carter.

[01:10:53] Kicked them out in 2019.

[01:10:55] And.

[01:10:56] Liggett came back with quote.

[01:10:57] Even after your 2019.

[01:10:59] If I needed something from the FBI.

[01:11:01] I called them.

[01:11:03] Like it was not a situation.

[01:11:04] Where they were like.

[01:11:06] You know.

[01:11:06] Get out of Indiana.

[01:11:08] Like we.

[01:11:10] Carroll County.

[01:11:11] And the Indiana State Police.

[01:11:12] Didn't like.

[01:11:13] Ride the FBI.

[01:11:14] The FBI agent.

[01:11:15] Down on a rail.

[01:11:16] It was just.

[01:11:17] I don't think they really worked.

[01:11:18] On the case anymore.

[01:11:19] I'm sure there was internal tension.

[01:11:21] I don't.

[01:11:21] Like I mean.

[01:11:22] But like.

[01:11:22] But is that really.

[01:11:23] Is the kind of inside baseball.

[01:11:25] Of like which agency.

[01:11:27] Is mad at the other.

[01:11:28] Really.

[01:11:29] The winning argument.

[01:11:30] For this defense team.

[01:11:31] Are we supposed to look.

[01:11:33] At the Federal Bureau.

[01:11:34] Of investigation.

[01:11:35] Which is.

[01:11:36] A organization.

[01:11:37] That is as.

[01:11:38] Filled with talent.

[01:11:39] And also flawed.

[01:11:40] As any other.

[01:11:41] In this country.

[01:11:42] Are we supposed to look at them.

[01:11:43] As like the bright.

[01:11:44] Shining.

[01:11:45] Archangels.

[01:11:46] Of law and justice.

[01:11:47] Where they're going to come in.

[01:11:48] And magically solve.

[01:11:49] Everything immediately.

[01:11:50] And like how dare these people.

[01:11:52] These locals.

[01:11:53] Not let them in.

[01:11:54] Or should we look at this.

[01:11:55] As it's probably a complicated thing.

[01:11:57] They're providing some resources.

[01:11:59] Indiana State Police.

[01:12:01] Might have some of those resources.

[01:12:02] Already in terms of technology.

[01:12:04] Not need them.

[01:12:05] And there may.

[01:12:05] There might be some tensions.

[01:12:07] I don't know.

[01:12:08] It's just like vaguely.

[01:12:10] Alluding to this nonsense.

[01:12:11] It just is.

[01:12:11] Like where is this going?

[01:12:14] It's a good question.

[01:12:15] And.

[01:12:16] I want to give.

[01:12:17] Another example.

[01:12:19] Of an instance.

[01:12:20] Where I felt.

[01:12:21] This defense team.

[01:12:22] Was not.

[01:12:23] Bringing their A game today.

[01:12:25] Because Brad.

[01:12:28] Asked a question.

[01:12:29] That you should not.

[01:12:30] Ask of a person.

[01:12:31] As intelligent.

[01:12:32] As Tony Liggett.

[01:12:34] Because when you have a person.

[01:12:35] As intelligent.

[01:12:36] As Tony Liggett.

[01:12:37] And you ask.

[01:12:38] A question like this.

[01:12:39] It's like pitching.

[01:12:40] A really slow ball.

[01:12:42] Right down the middle.

[01:12:43] Which I think.

[01:12:44] Is a baseball reference.

[01:12:45] You are a.

[01:12:46] You like baseball.

[01:12:47] Why are you asking me?

[01:12:48] And the question.

[01:12:49] He asked.

[01:12:50] Was.

[01:12:51] You know.

[01:12:51] This bullet.

[01:12:52] Is so important.

[01:12:53] This bullet.

[01:12:53] Is a crime scene.

[01:12:54] Which you say.

[01:12:55] You link to.

[01:12:55] Richard Allen.

[01:12:57] Isn't it.

[01:12:58] A fact.

[01:12:58] That this bullet.

[01:12:59] Is the only reason.

[01:13:01] You arrested him.

[01:13:03] And Liggett.

[01:13:04] Just kind of got.

[01:13:04] A little bit.

[01:13:04] A little bit of a smile.

[01:13:06] And he said.

[01:13:06] Well no.

[01:13:07] Actually.

[01:13:08] There were other reasons.

[01:13:09] For instance.

[01:13:10] His statement.

[01:13:11] In which.

[01:13:12] He placed himself.

[01:13:13] At the crime scene.

[01:13:14] And he indicated.

[01:13:15] He saw these three people.

[01:13:16] Who saw.

[01:13:17] Bridge guy.

[01:13:18] And this.

[01:13:19] This other thing.

[01:13:20] And we.

[01:13:21] Let's see Blair.

[01:13:22] And also the fact.

[01:13:22] That we were able.

[01:13:23] To identify his car.

[01:13:25] On the video.

[01:13:26] Going out there.

[01:13:27] And so he like.

[01:13:28] Laid out the case.

[01:13:30] For Richard Allen's.

[01:13:31] Guilt.

[01:13:32] And he laid it out.

[01:13:33] Not even mentioning.

[01:13:34] The bullet.

[01:13:34] And he did it.

[01:13:35] Because Brad Rosey.

[01:13:36] Asked him to.

[01:13:37] I think.

[01:13:37] I think when you.

[01:13:38] Kind of like.

[01:13:39] I don't know.

[01:13:40] I think Brad Rosey's.

[01:13:42] Had a tough time.

[01:13:43] In this situation.

[01:13:44] Often times.

[01:13:45] Like.

[01:13:45] Kind of taking on.

[01:13:46] A persona.

[01:13:47] Perhaps.

[01:13:48] And I'm sure.

[01:13:48] Like I'm.

[01:13:49] You know.

[01:13:49] Like I'm not.

[01:13:49] Not anything about his character.

[01:13:51] And.

[01:13:52] In real life.

[01:13:53] In a non-professional sense.

[01:13:54] But like.

[01:13:54] I feel like.

[01:13:55] There's some of this.

[01:13:56] Kind of like.

[01:13:56] Looking down on other people.

[01:13:58] Situation.

[01:13:58] And we've seen that.

[01:13:59] With both the.

[01:14:00] You know.

[01:14:00] The prospective jurors.

[01:14:01] And then with people.

[01:14:02] He's crossing.

[01:14:03] I think that can really.

[01:14:04] Backfire.

[01:14:04] If you end up.

[01:14:05] Really looking down on people.

[01:14:06] And then.

[01:14:07] You might underestimate them.

[01:14:09] Rosie reminds me.

[01:14:10] I'm going to make a stupid.

[01:14:12] Comment.

[01:14:12] But it's.

[01:14:13] I swear to goodness.

[01:14:14] It's going somewhere.

[01:14:15] I'm not just completely.

[01:14:16] Hallucinating.

[01:14:17] And sleep deprived.

[01:14:18] Although.

[01:14:18] Who knows.

[01:14:21] Rosie sometimes.

[01:14:22] Reminds me.

[01:14:22] I have a bit.

[01:14:23] That I do sometimes.

[01:14:25] To Kevin.

[01:14:25] To annoy him.

[01:14:26] Where.

[01:14:27] And I'm also.

[01:14:28] It's actually.

[01:14:28] It's not really a bit.

[01:14:29] It's actually totally serious.

[01:14:30] But I have a very.

[01:14:32] Very strong opinion.

[01:14:33] As some of you know.

[01:14:34] About apples.

[01:14:36] Okay.

[01:14:36] I am a.

[01:14:38] Macintosh.

[01:14:39] Apple.

[01:14:40] Apple.

[01:14:40] Supremacist.

[01:14:41] I.

[01:14:41] That is my favorite type of apple.

[01:14:43] I think they're the perfect balance.

[01:14:44] Of sweetness and tart.

[01:14:45] And they just.

[01:14:46] They're pure class.

[01:14:47] Okay.

[01:14:48] And.

[01:14:49] I.

[01:14:50] I sometimes go on a rant.

[01:14:51] Like the American consumer.

[01:14:52] Doesn't know what it's missing.

[01:14:53] I feel like Macintosh apples.

[01:14:54] Are not celebrated as much as they should be.

[01:14:56] I feel like they're not in as many grocery stores.

[01:14:58] As they should be.

[01:14:59] We all want our sweet treats.

[01:15:01] And our kind of treacly sugary apples.

[01:15:04] And.

[01:15:04] What happened to the sensible.

[01:15:07] Fresh goodness of the Macintosh.

[01:15:09] Why cannot that not once more become the paramount apple.

[01:15:12] Of the American heart.

[01:15:14] The apple of our eye.

[01:15:15] So to speak.

[01:15:16] And.

[01:15:16] You know.

[01:15:17] If you.

[01:15:18] Like.

[01:15:19] That's my opinion.

[01:15:20] And I certainly feel very strongly about it.

[01:15:22] And I'm kind of yelling about it.

[01:15:24] And I'm making.

[01:15:24] I'm dissing.

[01:15:25] Dissing the other apples.

[01:15:27] But.

[01:15:28] At the end of the day.

[01:15:29] You're probably just saying.

[01:15:30] Like.

[01:15:30] Well that's your opinion on you.

[01:15:32] Like where's the.

[01:15:34] People can feel differently.

[01:15:35] And.

[01:15:36] That's kind of.

[01:15:37] How I look at a lot of Rosie's arguments.

[01:15:39] They're not like.

[01:15:41] They're not nailing it on the facts and logic.

[01:15:43] It's just like somebody standing there.

[01:15:44] Ranting at you about.

[01:15:45] About what their preferred apple type is.

[01:15:48] Is that.

[01:15:49] I mean.

[01:15:49] Is that unfair?

[01:15:50] What do you think?

[01:15:51] I mean.

[01:15:51] You're an attorney.

[01:15:52] I understand that they have to.

[01:15:54] Argue strenuously for things.

[01:15:55] I just find it more convincing.

[01:15:57] When you're taking a different.

[01:15:59] Approach.

[01:16:00] Than just trying to almost like.

[01:16:01] Brow beat everyone into agreeing with you.

[01:16:04] Because that's sort of what it feels like sometimes.

[01:16:06] That's what it feels like he does.

[01:16:08] It's like if I yell.

[01:16:09] And kind of like.

[01:16:10] You know.

[01:16:10] Make dramatic motions with my hands.

[01:16:13] Everyone will see that I am correct.

[01:16:15] And it's like.

[01:16:16] No.

[01:16:17] You kind of have to.

[01:16:18] Do a little more work than that.

[01:16:20] I think.

[01:16:21] I don't.

[01:16:21] I'm not impressed.

[01:16:22] I was really unimpressed today.

[01:16:25] I.

[01:16:26] I.

[01:16:26] I don't know.

[01:16:27] It's like.

[01:16:29] I don't know what they're thinking.

[01:16:30] I feel like they.

[01:16:31] They should have figured out some of this stuff doesn't play well.

[01:16:34] And maybe gone with it.

[01:16:35] I'm not even saying a different theory.

[01:16:37] Just go with like a different kind of style.

[01:16:39] I think a lot of it goes back again.

[01:16:42] They cultivate this group of YouTubers.

[01:16:44] They have one sitting in the defense seats.

[01:16:48] Actually.

[01:16:48] Actually they have two sitting next to them in the defense seats.

[01:16:51] I guess.

[01:16:52] It's.

[01:16:53] Yeah.

[01:16:53] I don't.

[01:16:53] I don't know what to say.

[01:16:55] I guess at the end of the day we'll see how well this strategy ultimately served their clients and themselves.

[01:17:02] Rosie talked about how he extolled Richard Allen like you know.

[01:17:08] Absolute hero for coming forward and calling in the tip line.

[01:17:13] About his comings and goings at the trail that day.

[01:17:16] Like give this man a medal right now.

[01:17:19] Like it's like I don't know why he came forward.

[01:17:23] Like it just I don't know.

[01:17:25] It's just it's not I don't feel like it's going well right now for the defense.

[01:17:29] Maybe they can turn it around.

[01:17:31] And then you know then one thing Rosie was like oh you're saying that he parked he backed into the parking space.

[01:17:36] That's not a real thing.

[01:17:37] Like it's like I didn't say it was pertinent.

[01:17:40] I just noted it.

[01:17:42] But yeah I was just didn't they kind of oh this was there was a kind of a twist at the end then right about the cell phones.

[01:17:51] Oh remind me.

[01:17:52] Okay.

[01:17:53] So Brad Rosie starts in on his thing you know like cell phones solve crimes right as an investigator you know this you know how cell phones solve crimes.

[01:18:02] And you know he's like okay and you know like and nothing on Richard Allen's cell phones ties him to Liberty or Abby right.

[01:18:14] And Ligget responds that's what's interesting.

[01:18:17] And then he he says that despite the fact that Richard Allen's story that day was that he was on his stock ticker on his phone on the trail.

[01:18:27] There is no evidence of him being on his phone that at the trail that day.

[01:18:32] So I imagine he's not in the tower data.

[01:18:36] Which makes I've been asking that for a long time so I'm glad he cleared that up because I've always wondered to me it's kind of a mixed bag.

[01:18:44] Because I actually think it would be better for Allen in a way like I don't know like we already know he was there because he says he was there and other people saw him there.

[01:18:55] But at least if you saw his phone you could buy okay yeah maybe he was on his stock ticker you know maybe you I'm like maybe someone else's bridge guy.

[01:19:02] But if his phone isn't there why did he lie about that.

[01:19:07] Like that's not something that can like you can't like if it's like if his phone was turned off then he wasn't on a stock ticker like.

[01:19:14] How do you account for this.

[01:19:16] Like how on earth does that get accounted for.

[01:19:19] That doesn't make any friggin sense.

[01:19:21] Good questions.

[01:19:23] Next witness is a name you might recognize is ISP trooper Dave Vito.

[01:19:28] He was really involved in the Kagan Klein investigation.

[01:19:31] He's been very involved in Delphi as a whole.

[01:19:34] So we've seen him testify many times.

[01:19:38] He's very experienced that he's very articulate.

[01:19:43] So his role is what he was testifying about is he was present on October 13th 2022 when Richard Allen's house was searched.

[01:19:55] So he was there basically to verify some pictures from that search which were introduced.

[01:20:02] And these searches these pictures from this search were interesting.

[01:20:08] Oh yeah.

[01:20:08] Because they give us some new details I think.

[01:20:13] I'll mention the pictures.

[01:20:15] There was a picture of the outside of Richard Allen's house.

[01:20:19] And when that was displayed Richard Allen started nodding.

[01:20:23] Yeah.

[01:20:23] Again.

[01:20:24] I don't know.

[01:20:25] Performative nods.

[01:20:27] There was a picture of another angle of the house.

[01:20:30] There was a picture of the 2016 Ford Focus in the garage.

[01:20:34] There was another picture of the 2016 Ford Focus in the garage.

[01:20:38] And in this one you could clearly see that they did have those rims where you could see light through them.

[01:20:45] Yep.

[01:20:46] There was a picture of the inside of the garage.

[01:20:49] There was a picture of the garage workbench which had on it lots of knives.

[01:20:55] Lots of box cutters.

[01:20:56] Box cutters.

[01:20:58] There was another picture of knives from the previous pictures.

[01:21:03] From the kitchen there was a picture of a basket that contained keys, more box cutters, a couple of knives, and his CVS name tag.

[01:21:14] There was a picture of a plastic bag containing a whole mess of electronic devices and chargers.

[01:21:24] There was a picture.

[01:21:27] Apparently there were also more phones found.

[01:21:30] These weren't shown in the photographs but more flip phones as well.

[01:21:35] There was a picture that showed like maybe like a dozen phones.

[01:21:38] Yeah.

[01:21:39] Yeah.

[01:21:39] There were two pictures of a whole bunch of knives they found inside the master bedroom.

[01:21:45] Okay.

[01:21:46] Yeah.

[01:21:46] That we'll talk about that in a minute.

[01:21:48] There was the picture of the master closet, Richard Allen's closet, a gun case in the closet, and some boots in the closet.

[01:21:59] There was a picture of his Carhartt jacket from the front and from the back.

[01:22:05] And at least superficially, this Carhartt jacket appeared very similar to the garment worn by the man in the Bridge Guy video.

[01:22:13] Yeah.

[01:22:14] In the master bedroom, there was also the Sig Sauer 40 caliber firearm.

[01:22:21] There was a picture also showing the serial number of that.

[01:22:23] There were actually several pictures of the gun.

[01:22:26] And also of 40 caliber blazer rounds.

[01:22:32] Yes.

[01:22:33] Which is a Smith & Wesson blazer.

[01:22:36] There was a picture of like a memory box.

[01:22:40] I think Liggett alluded to this earlier.

[01:22:41] And then there was a picture of the inside of the box, which includes some graduation cards, note from his mother, and a 40 caliber Winchester round.

[01:22:53] Mm-hmm.

[01:22:56] And then is this where we get to the pictures of the pictures of the pictures?

[01:23:02] Let me do a couple other things.

[01:23:04] First, there was a close-up of the round from the box.

[01:23:09] And there was a picture of the back of the round.

[01:23:12] And then, yeah, tell them about this photo album.

[01:23:16] It was like a photo album with pictures from like, I think it was February 2016, March 2016.

[01:23:22] Well, the photo album, there was a photo.

[01:23:24] Oh, the trails, right.

[01:23:25] Okay.

[01:23:25] There was a photo album which was seemingly devoted to pictures of the Monon High Bridge and trails.

[01:23:32] Yeah.

[01:23:33] That seemed odd.

[01:23:35] And I saw a lot of jurors kind of perk up at that.

[01:23:38] They did.

[01:23:38] And there was also, it was family, Alan family photos associated with the trails dating back to 2008.

[01:23:46] So a long time.

[01:23:49] Yes.

[01:23:50] Yeah.

[01:23:51] And then there was other pictures included February 2016.

[01:23:55] The caption, I didn't have a good angle on this, I felt.

[01:24:00] But the caption, which Vito read out was, Ricky posing by a tree.

[01:24:09] And another one, March 2016 was fishing in Deer Creek.

[01:24:15] And then April 2016 was Alan looking down off the Monon trail.

[01:24:22] So they seemingly spent a good amount of time there.

[01:24:25] Yeah.

[01:24:26] And like, you know, they're from the area that's not by itself ominous.

[01:24:32] But a lot of these things by themselves are not ominous.

[01:24:34] Let me tell you something that I think is ominous.

[01:24:37] The amount of knives in the master bedroom.

[01:24:40] I've never heard of that.

[01:24:42] What is, why do you have all the, what?

[01:24:45] I guess when I read the search warrant receipt, I was kind of like, well, I don't know.

[01:24:52] A lot of people have a lot of knives.

[01:24:54] And, you know, I'm the kind of person where I sort of like to buy in bulk sometimes.

[01:24:58] I might like to like have a big drawer full of like a specific thing that I need because I have a hard time finding things.

[01:25:04] And maybe that makes it easier for me.

[01:25:06] So maybe you kind of acquire a bit of a knife collection.

[01:25:08] It's all laid out real nice.

[01:25:10] Or it's just something you use because you're fishing, hunting, whatever.

[01:25:15] Like, it didn't really bother me.

[01:25:17] It bothered me seeing them all photographed in the master bedroom.

[01:25:22] Yeah, it's interesting.

[01:25:23] I mean, do you, like, can you think of a reason why they would be there?

[01:25:30] I wouldn't want to go down that path.

[01:25:33] Yeah, I don't want to think about it.

[01:25:36] It was off-putting.

[01:25:37] I guess it's just, I mean, that's what a lot of box cutters kind of like, I mean, Vito kind of was like, there's a basket where they have stuff in them where they can kind of grab it and go for the day.

[01:25:47] So, you know, obviously box cutters, you know, I know he's a retail employee at CVS.

[01:25:51] So, I mean, you could say that that's reasonable.

[01:25:53] But it seemed like there were box cutters frigging everywhere in this house.

[01:25:56] Box cutters, knives.

[01:25:58] A lot.

[01:25:59] A lot.

[01:25:59] A lot of these bladed weapons.

[01:26:02] So, the cross-examination was done by Jennifer Auger.

[01:26:06] And the decision was made that, well, the strategy we should use in this cross-examination is let's shine a spotlight on everything odd that was found in this search and then try to unconvincingly explain it away.

[01:26:23] Okay.

[01:26:23] But to me, it just put an underline under all of these odd things, especially because the explanations, as you see, weren't all that convincing.

[01:26:34] And also, yeah, if you have a blue Carhartt jacket, that doesn't mean anything.

[01:26:39] No.

[01:26:40] But if you have a list of like 10 things, at some point.

[01:26:45] If you have a Bridge Guy starter kit in your house and something that looks exactly like your car is there at the time that you said it was there originally.

[01:26:57] And you admit you were there.

[01:27:00] And other people saw you and you say you saw them.

[01:27:03] At some point.

[01:27:04] Yeah.

[01:27:05] You've got a problem.

[01:27:05] You have a problem.

[01:27:07] But I want to tell you about some of these questions she asked, which again seems to just put a spotlight on.

[01:27:13] This was terrible.

[01:27:14] I'm sorry.

[01:27:14] It just puts a spotlight on every odd thing.

[01:27:17] She said to Vito, well, it's not uncommon, is it, for people in Carroll County to go to the Monon High Bridge and take lots and lots of pictures?

[01:27:27] And McClellan interrupted and said, can I ask a question, a preliminary question.

[01:27:31] This is funny.

[01:27:32] For a foundation.

[01:27:32] And he asked Dave Vito, Trooper Vito, are you aware of what families in the area do?

[01:27:40] And he kept on saying Carroll County and Tippecanoe County.

[01:27:43] And Dave Vito said no.

[01:27:45] And so McClellan objected because then Jennifer Ajay's question called for speculation.

[01:27:52] Vito also like pointed it out accurately.

[01:27:55] And this is something we've heard again and again.

[01:27:57] And we've heard again and again in our own reporting.

[01:28:00] Some people are like, yeah, I grew up with the Monon High Bridge.

[01:28:04] I went there as a 16-year-old.

[01:28:06] And then some people have never heard of it.

[01:28:08] Like it's not like, you know, there's a divide in the community about like this thing.

[01:28:15] I mean some people are all about it.

[01:28:17] Others don't really know about it or they've never been there.

[01:28:19] It's like it's not like it's not like, you know, Delphi forces you to walk across the bridge as some sort of initiation rite.

[01:28:26] You know what I mean?

[01:28:26] It's a bit hit or miss.

[01:28:28] So to say that like to say that it's highly unusual for them to have that would be completely inaccurate.

[01:28:34] I don't think it is.

[01:28:35] I mean that might be a really nice time to spend as a family.

[01:28:37] And if you have a bunch of photos to document that, then great.

[01:28:40] That's not really unusual out of the context of this whole thing.

[01:28:45] But at the same time, it's also not nothing.

[01:28:49] So then she says, well, you know, we certainly saw lots and lots and lots and lots of knives there.

[01:28:57] But, you know, he's a fisherman.

[01:28:59] And, you know.

[01:29:01] Who knows when a rogue fish might jump in your master bedroom.

[01:29:04] You know, he's a fisherman.

[01:29:05] And it's not unusual.

[01:29:07] Is it Trooper Vito for a fisherman to have lots and lots of knives?

[01:29:11] And Vito looked confused.

[01:29:14] And after a moment, he said, well, I don't really know how you'd use knives to fish except maybe spearfish.

[01:29:22] And OJ said, well, what if your lines get tangled?

[01:29:25] And Vito said, well, scissors?

[01:29:29] Filetting fish?

[01:29:30] Yeah, I think Vito is a city boy.

[01:29:34] Well, I mean, it's just I guess if, like, you're the defense attorney, you have to be like, well, that was a lot of knives.

[01:29:41] Then I don't think things are going very well.

[01:29:45] And then she was like, well, also, you know, Trooper Vito, it's not unusual to have people to have lots and lots of phones or lots of box cutters.

[01:29:54] And, of course, the blue car heart jacket, that's not unusual.

[01:29:58] And the six-hour gun that has a bullet that matches a bullet found in the scene of the crime, that's not unusual, is it?

[01:30:05] Is it?

[01:30:05] Is it?

[01:30:06] Yeah.

[01:30:07] I don't know.

[01:30:09] And then she said, is there anything about the car that the car found in the garage?

[01:30:17] Is there anything about that car that links it to the murder of Abigail Williams or Liberty Germans?

[01:30:25] Yeah, this is great.

[01:30:26] And Vito said, yeah, sure.

[01:30:28] It's on the video of the Hoosier Harvest store actually driving there.

[01:30:31] At the time, he said it was driving there.

[01:30:34] And OJ kind of, I don't know, did she sigh?

[01:30:38] Yeah.

[01:30:39] She said, well, was there anything inside the vehicle that linked it to the murder?

[01:30:44] And he said no.

[01:30:47] And then she said, and all the knives.

[01:30:51] Were there any knives you found that can be linked to the murders?

[01:30:56] And Vito said, you mean found at the residence?

[01:30:59] Yeah, that was interesting.

[01:31:00] And she said yes.

[01:31:01] And he said, well, in that case, no.

[01:31:03] I don't think they have a murder weapon in this case, by the way.

[01:31:06] But interesting.

[01:31:07] It was funny.

[01:31:09] Here's the thing.

[01:31:09] Like, yeah, he did a good job kind of pairing some of this stuff.

[01:31:15] Let me just say this.

[01:31:17] You know, we can dunk on the defense here.

[01:31:20] They have a hard job.

[01:31:22] Allen has made their jobs very difficult.

[01:31:24] But here's where I think they messed up.

[01:31:27] One thing that could have actually helped in this specific instance is the jury knowing a little bit more about this mysterious, very twitchy man who's sitting in front of them making all sorts of weird faces all day.

[01:31:43] Because if we knew a little bit more about him, we could contextualize not only some of what he's gone through, some of his behavior, but also things like why does he have so many knives?

[01:31:54] If you can talk me through in your opening statement, what does a day look like for Richard Allen before any of this happens?

[01:32:00] Maybe that includes fishing where he's filleting stuff with knives in a non-ominus way or using his box cutters to open packages at the CVS and make sure he's kind of helping his employees, you know, his team members there get their stuff done.

[01:32:16] You can kind of walk us through some of this and maybe put a nicer spin on some of it and make it less of a house of knives and box cutters and more of a happy home with a longtime married man and a little dog and a wife and everyone's happy.

[01:32:34] And this is someone who couldn't have done this because they're so great.

[01:32:37] You know, give us something.

[01:32:39] Am I right?

[01:32:40] But having like this this guy be this like enigma for the jury, you know, like they're seeing him having these weird reactions and then, you know, knife, knife, knife, box cutter, box cutter, like box cutters like that.

[01:32:55] You know, they don't know that he said anything about a box cutter yet, but they're gonna soon.

[01:32:59] And then they're going to think back.

[01:33:00] Hey, remember all those box cutters we saw?

[01:33:02] And remember how the pathologist said that it was probably, you know, could have been a box cutter.

[01:33:06] So, I mean, this is where getting to know Richard Allen and it just why don't they want people to know their client?

[01:33:12] Like, what is the problem?

[01:33:15] They don't have to go into depth about like every if he's ever done something bad, they don't like say that they could just kind of give us the spin, give us the positives.

[01:33:23] Right.

[01:33:24] Does it surprise you that they haven't done that at all?

[01:33:28] A lot surprises me.

[01:33:30] Should we move on to the final witness?

[01:33:32] Sure.

[01:33:32] Final witness of the day is Lieutenant Jerry Holman.

[01:33:37] And he was on the stand to discuss, again, the search at Richard Allen's house.

[01:33:42] The lieutenant was actually in charge of supervising that search.

[01:33:47] And so the first thing he did was he did a walkthrough all throughout the house with a CSI.

[01:33:55] And they took pictures of the document.

[01:33:58] They took pictures of the property to document how it appeared at the beginning of the search.

[01:34:04] That way it would be easy to tell whether or not anything got damaged.

[01:34:09] And Holman told Richard Allen, we're going to be careful as possible and try not to damage anything.

[01:34:15] But if we do damage some of your property, there's some paperwork you can fill out for, I guess, reimbursement.

[01:34:21] And Richard Allen responded to that by saying it doesn't matter.

[01:34:26] It's over.

[01:34:31] Yeah, I think the gallery kind of, I don't know whether it was a pause or everyone kind of was like, wait, what?

[01:34:39] And then later on, Holman and Allen are in a car together during the search.

[01:34:45] And Allen is asking, did you detain my wife?

[01:34:48] And the answer is no.

[01:34:49] I think she'd gone to the back.

[01:34:50] So because the investigators were searching the house, she needed to use the restroom.

[01:34:56] So she drove off to go to her workplace.

[01:35:00] And so he asked, was my wife detained?

[01:35:02] No.

[01:35:03] He was concerned about this.

[01:35:04] Holman said, I can drive you to go see your wife if you want at her workplace, if you would prefer that.

[01:35:12] And again, Allen said, quote, it doesn't matter.

[01:35:17] It's over.

[01:35:20] After that, it was announced that the jury would get an opportunity to view the gun.

[01:35:27] The gun, which the prosecution contends is linked to the bullet found at the crime scene.

[01:35:36] Yes.

[01:35:37] And so they talked a lot about procedures and how there was tracking on it and it's protected.

[01:35:44] And it was actually in a box that was inside another box.

[01:35:49] Holman gets it out.

[01:35:50] He reads the ID.

[01:35:52] And they're supposed to sign it.

[01:35:54] Whenever they take it out of the box, they're supposed to then seal it back in and sign the seal and maybe even date the seal so it can be kept track of.

[01:36:03] And there's like a whole property record with it.

[01:36:05] It's all very technical.

[01:36:07] And then before the jury gets a chance to look at it, they say we need to clear this gun for safety purposes.

[01:36:16] And so Holman racks the gun.

[01:36:19] I think three times, right?

[01:36:21] Times.

[01:36:21] That was like the loudest sound in the world.

[01:36:24] It was chilling because I think everybody there realized this sounds very similar to what we heard in the video.

[01:36:32] And this could have been one of the last sounds these poor girls heard.

[01:36:36] It took my breath away when they did that.

[01:36:38] It was like...

[01:36:40] It was so loud and it was just like, oh my God.

[01:36:45] And...

[01:36:45] Yeah, your mind immediately goes...

[01:36:47] You know?

[01:36:48] When people say, well, I would have fought and I would have, you know, like done a flying kick to the guy in the face.

[01:36:55] And then, you know...

[01:36:57] When you hear that sound...

[01:37:01] You know?

[01:37:01] That does something.

[01:37:03] And people are humans and you have fight or flight responses.

[01:37:06] And, I mean, these are two little girls.

[01:37:09] Okay?

[01:37:10] So, I mean, whatever happened to them, you know, I think it seems very, very possible that you can force people to comply with you, especially children, when you have a gun and you indicate to them by racking it that you are prepared to use it on them.

[01:37:27] Then Andrew Baldwin gives his cross-examination.

[01:37:32] And then Andrew Baldwin gives his cross-examination.

[01:37:32] He was upset that Holman did not record those conversations with Richard Allen.

[01:37:40] And Holman was like, I just thought I was giving him basic paperwork information and I wasn't, you know...

[01:37:46] I mean, okay, but like, isn't this so friggin...

[01:37:49] Like, the whole story of Richard Allen has been him, like, running up to everyone from his psychologist to his wife and mother to Warden John Gallupo, formerly of Westville Prison.

[01:38:03] And including Lieutenant Jerry Holman when they're basically saying something else to him and blurting out something troubling at the very least.

[01:38:13] This is not a confession, obviously, but it's a troubling statement to make.

[01:38:20] And the other people are like, what?

[01:38:22] Like, basically, it's like, hey, you know, like, here's some very basic procedure.

[01:38:29] Here's what you do if we rip up your car, but we're going to try not to.

[01:38:31] It's over.

[01:38:32] What?

[01:38:32] I mean, like, I don't know.

[01:38:34] Like, that's really...

[01:38:34] And then Baldwin was like, well, you know, Richard Allen lived in a neighborhood and there were police doing this search.

[01:38:41] Maybe he was just upset because the neighbors would see.

[01:38:44] What do you think?

[01:38:45] And McClellan said, objection, that's speculation.

[01:38:50] And then Baldwin was like, well, you know, these witnesses, Sarah Carbaud and Betsy Blair, they're even credible?

[01:38:57] And McClellan objected because that was outside of the scope.

[01:39:01] And so it kind of figured out to a close.

[01:39:05] Yeah, it definitely fizzled.

[01:39:06] It definitely fizzled.

[01:39:07] And then, you know, it was recess.

[01:39:09] But...

[01:39:09] That was the end of the day.

[01:39:10] But, I mean, again, I don't want to overstate those statements.

[01:39:14] They're not confessions.

[01:39:15] They're not detailed.

[01:39:17] But if he was...

[01:39:19] Yeah.

[01:39:20] I mean, they're not something that I think sounds particularly good when you're looking at this.

[01:39:28] No.

[01:39:28] I mean, I don't know.

[01:39:30] I mean, yeah, it would be pretty embarrassing to have your house raided like this.

[01:39:34] And I don't know.

[01:39:36] I mean, have we heard...

[01:39:37] And again, again, context.

[01:39:39] Have we heard about a Richard Allen who was such a pillar of his community that like his neighbor's views of him meant so much to him that he would truly feel his life was over if they saw his good name besmirched by all of these Indiana State police troopers flooding his property?

[01:39:55] Have we heard about that?

[01:39:56] God, I haven't heard about that.

[01:39:57] No.

[01:39:57] So why...

[01:39:59] Like, introduce us to your main character maybe?

[01:40:01] And then maybe we can decide, well, yeah, maybe he was so sensitive that that would actually prompt that reaction.

[01:40:07] But beyond that, that's a weird statement to make.

[01:40:12] Yes.

[01:40:14] I don't know what else to say about it.

[01:40:16] Well, I guess we'll find out more tomorrow, but...

[01:40:18] Thank you so much for listening.

[01:40:20] Yeah, we really appreciate it.

[01:40:21] Thanks, guys.

[01:40:21] Bye.

[01:40:23] Thanks so much for listening to The Murder Sheet.

[01:40:26] If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us at murdersheet at gmail.com.

[01:40:35] If you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[01:40:44] If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com slash murdersheet.

[01:40:53] If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www.buymeacoffee.com slash murdersheet.

[01:41:03] We very much appreciate any support.

[01:41:07] Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for The Murder Sheet,

[01:41:12] and who you can find on the web at kevintg.com.

[01:41:17] If you're looking to talk with other listeners about a case we've covered,

[01:41:21] you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook.

[01:41:25] We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much.

[01:41:30] We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages.

[01:41:37] Thanks again for listening.

[01:41:44] Thanks so much for sticking around to the end of this Murder Sheet episode.

[01:41:48] Just as a quick post-roll ad, we wanted to tell you again about our friend Jason Blair's wonderful Silver Linings Handbook.

[01:41:55] This show is phenomenal.

[01:41:58] Whether you are interested in true crime, the criminal justice system, law, mental health, stories of marginalized people,

[01:42:05] overcoming tragedy, well-being, like he does it all.

[01:42:09] This is a show for you.

[01:42:10] He has so many different conversations with interesting people, people whose loved ones have gone missing,

[01:42:18] other podcasters in the true crime space,

[01:42:22] just interesting people with interesting life experiences.

[01:42:26] And Jason's gift, I think, is just being an incredibly empathetic and compassionate interviewer,

[01:42:31] where he's really letting his guests tell their stories and asking really interesting questions along the way,

[01:42:36] guiding those conversations forward.

[01:42:38] I would liken it to like you're kind of almost sitting down with friends

[01:42:42] and sort of just hearing these fascinating tales that you wouldn't get otherwise,

[01:42:46] because he just has that ability as an interviewer to tease it out and really make it interesting for his audience.

[01:42:53] On a personal level, Jason is frankly a great guy.

[01:42:57] Yes.

[01:42:57] He's been a really good friend to us.

[01:43:00] And so it's fun to be able to hit a button on my phone and get a little dose of Jason talking to people whenever I want.

[01:43:07] It's a really terrific show.

[01:43:10] We really recommend it highly.

[01:43:11] Yeah, I think our audience will like it.

[01:43:13] And you've already met Jason if you listen consistently to our show.

[01:43:16] He's been on our show a couple times.

[01:43:17] We've been on his show.

[01:43:19] He's a terrific guest.

[01:43:20] I say this in one of our ads about him, but I literally always – I'm like, oh, yeah,

[01:43:24] I remember when Jason said this.

[01:43:26] That really resonated.

[01:43:26] Like I do quote him in conversations sometimes because he really has a good grasp of different complicated issues.

[01:43:33] She quotes him to me all the time.

[01:43:33] I do – I'm like, I remember when Jason said this?

[01:43:35] That was so right.

[01:43:36] So, I mean, I think if we're doing that, I think – and you like us,

[01:43:39] I think you should give it a shot, give it a try.

[01:43:41] I think you'll really enjoy it.

[01:43:43] And again, he does a range of different topics, but they all kind of have the similar theme of compassion,

[01:43:49] of overcoming suffering, of dealing with suffering, of mental health, wellness, things like that.

[01:43:54] There's kind of a common through line of compassion and empathy there that I think we find very nice.

[01:43:59] And we work on a lot of stories that can be very tough, and we try to bring compassion and empathy to it.

[01:44:05] But this is something that almost can be like if you're kind of feeling a little burned out by true crime,

[01:44:09] I think this is kind of the life-affirming stuff that can be nice to listen to in a podcast.

[01:44:16] It's compassionate.

[01:44:17] It's affirming.

[01:44:18] But I also want to emphasize it's smart.

[01:44:22] People – Jason is a very intelligent, articulate person.

[01:44:27] This is a smart show, but it's an accessible show.

[01:44:30] I think you'll all really enjoy it.

[01:44:33] Yeah, and he's got a great community that he's building.

[01:44:35] So we're really excited to be a part of that.

[01:44:36] We're fans of the show.

[01:44:38] We love it.

[01:44:38] And we would strongly encourage you all to check it out.

[01:44:41] Download some episodes.

[01:44:42] Listen.

[01:44:43] I think you'll understand what we're talking about once you do.

[01:44:46] But anyways, you can listen to The Silver Linings Handbook wherever you listen to podcasts.

[01:44:50] Wherever you listen to podcasts.

[01:44:52] Very easy to find.

[01:44:53] Absolutely.

[01:44:54] Absolutely.