The Delphi Murders: Richard Allen on Trial: Day Three: The Crime Scene

[00:00:00] Content Warning, this episode contains discussion of the murder of two girls, including some pretty graphic conversations about crime scene images.

[00:00:12] Um, hey, uh, thanks everyone for listening. So today's gonna be a pretty heavy episode of the Murder Sheet. We just went through a day of trial, uh, where the crime scene images were a big factor of what everyone saw today.

[00:00:29] Prosecution is still putting on its case led by Carroll County Prosecutor Nicholas McClelland and, um, it got pretty disturbing today.

[00:00:39] Oh, the most of the prosecution case today was presented by, uh, the very capable James Luttrell.

[00:00:45] And the other member of that team, of course, is Stacy Diener. The defense side is Andrew Baldwin, Brad Rosie, and Jennifer Oje.

[00:00:53] Uh, we're gonna cover, uh, everything that happened and even, uh, a bit more. So stay tuned.

[00:01:04] My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist.

[00:01:06] And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

[00:01:08] And this is The Murder Sheet.

[00:01:10] We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases.

[00:01:18] We're the murder sheet.

[00:01:20] And this is The Delphi Murders. Richard Allen on trial. Day three. The crime scene.

[00:02:14] We're going to get into some heavy stuff today, as we mentioned.

[00:02:19] Before we do that, we're gonna talk just a little bit about some public access stuff.

[00:02:23] And before we do that, I just want to take a quick moment to say one thing about this, uh, experience that is positive.

[00:02:33] Is that it gives us the opportunity to meet some really kind people.

[00:02:38] Some of whom are from, uh, the Delphi area.

[00:02:41] And I particularly, uh, today enjoyed chatting with Mike, Angie, and Julie.

[00:02:47] One of those people is a volunteer fireman, just like my father and my grandfather.

[00:02:51] And it's not Mike.

[00:02:53] Oh, very cool.

[00:02:54] Yeah, I feel like talking to people in line, it's nice when there's a sense of solidarity.

[00:02:59] I feel like I've talked to a lot of people and too many to name, but I just want to say that that's very nice.

[00:03:05] It's been nice to meet all of you.

[00:03:07] And, uh, you know, I hope, I hope you're all doing well.

[00:03:10] But, um, but yeah, it's, it's just, there are a lot of very nice people who want to go to these things.

[00:03:16] And either want to see it play out or want to cover it with respect.

[00:03:19] And I, I really appreciate that.

[00:03:21] We're going to talk a bit about some, uh, pretty serious public, uh, access and frankly, public safety concerns.

[00:03:28] I know some of you, uh, aren't interested in that aspect and just want to hear about what actually happened during the trial itself.

[00:03:35] So if you fall into that camp, feel free to, uh, skip ahead a few moments.

[00:03:40] We don't particularly enjoy talking about this aspect of it either, but it feels like it just keeps getting worse and worse and something bad is going to happen.

[00:03:52] And so it feels like we have an obligation to talk about it.

[00:03:56] I think in the past, I theorized that, uh, Judge Gull and her, uh, Allen County outfit had a competence problem.

[00:04:03] I think at this point it's moved beyond that.

[00:04:06] I think she knows exactly what she's doing and there's some pretty basic irresponsibility here and an indifference to public safety.

[00:04:14] Yeah, this is, this has been bad.

[00:04:18] Um, there's, there's a real sense of, I guess, chaos that sort of reigns over this trial.

[00:04:26] Um, we've mentioned that unlike most of the, you know, all of the pretrial hearings that we recall, you don't keep your seats for the entire day.

[00:04:34] So you have people camped out there very late and then you have another group of people who, who camps out, you know, also staying a long time to wait for their seats where they, they line up then at the afternoon seat.

[00:04:47] And you have very people, very interested in this case, people who are very hungry, people who are sleep deprived, because basically Judge Gull has set it up so that if you want to attend this trial and get firsthand information,

[00:05:01] you need to basically go with little, if any sleep, little, if any food, little, if any hydration.

[00:05:12] And when I'm sure in your own life, you know, you can, can think of times when you have had little sleep and it makes you irritable.

[00:05:20] So there's a lot of irritable people.

[00:05:22] There's this, this bizarre system where in order to get in line in the afternoon, you have to stand in one line and then it moves and people start jockeying for different positions.

[00:05:32] And every day that's happened, I've seen people get very angry with one another and come very close to blows.

[00:05:40] And today some people who were there who had not been there previously were just shocked.

[00:05:45] And they kept on saying to Adi and I, I don't know how you can possibly do this much longer.

[00:05:50] I was talking to this one lady and I'm sorry, I forget her name.

[00:05:53] I'm very tired, but she and I were talking.

[00:05:56] And I'm like, you know, we have to have solidarity with one another because we're all in this together to a certain extent.

[00:06:01] I don't want to sound like a Pollyanna, but like truly.

[00:06:04] But it's, I understand also, it's very easy for people to become irritable.

[00:06:09] And, and we've seen verbal altercations.

[00:06:11] And let me just say, I don't believe this is something where the deputies are happy or the people who are tasked with guarding and, and illicit, you know, ensuring everyone is safe or happy with this.

[00:06:20] I believe, I believe that they are hamstrung though, because they are basically, you know, taking orders from the court, from the judge.

[00:06:30] And what, what I understand her orders to be are don't intervene.

[00:06:35] Don't worry about it.

[00:06:36] You're not the referee of any of this.

[00:06:38] And I'm just going to say like a little bit of refereeing in situations like this would go a long way.

[00:06:43] And, and just simply having a process that people can follow.

[00:06:46] So having a designated spot where the afternoon people can line up and then be ushered upstairs.

[00:06:51] And then people who want to kind of try to go in for a second time, going to line up behind them.

[00:06:55] That would be fine.

[00:06:56] Or just let people who get in in the morning, keep their seat the whole day.

[00:06:59] That would be the best thing possible.

[00:07:01] I think.

[00:07:01] I think she wants the chaos.

[00:07:04] I think she's indifferent to the suffering of the public.

[00:07:09] And yeah, I mean, I don't mean to always complain, but.

[00:07:12] Somebody is going to pass out because like you can't drink water because if you have to go to the restroom, then you can't come back in.

[00:07:18] Yeah.

[00:07:18] So people can't drink.

[00:07:20] They can't eat.

[00:07:21] They can't sleep.

[00:07:22] It's it's she's creating a terrible system.

[00:07:26] And I have to believe no matter what criticism you might want to make of Judge Gull, she's not an unintelligent woman.

[00:07:32] So she has to know what she is doing and she has to know the effect it's having on people.

[00:07:38] And she's just indifferent to it.

[00:07:40] And also over and above.

[00:07:43] The public has already to know what's going on in that courtroom.

[00:07:46] And you shouldn't have to be willing to run a gauntlet of horror and torture in order to find out what's going on in that courtroom.

[00:07:54] What she's doing, in my mind, is deeply irresponsible and is an abuse of her judicial office.

[00:08:02] I just don't understand why you would do this to people.

[00:08:04] I really don't.

[00:08:05] There's so many easy fixes that would take no time to implement to make things a smoother and safer process for everybody.

[00:08:11] I don't understand why this is happening.

[00:08:14] It doesn't make any sense.

[00:08:16] There's no reason for it.

[00:08:17] It's an outrageous situation.

[00:08:18] It's entirely her creation.

[00:08:21] And it really things really got to you today.

[00:08:23] Things really got to me today.

[00:08:25] So actually, unfortunately, I kind of dropped the ball today and I kind of.

[00:08:30] After the morning session, which we'll talk about, which had some pretty heavy things in it.

[00:08:36] I think you realized pretty quickly that I was not doing well and told me to take the afternoon off.

[00:08:42] And I said, yes.

[00:08:43] And so I left and I feel really bad about that.

[00:08:47] I'm not going to lie because I felt like I let you down and the listeners down and like.

[00:08:55] Public understanding of the case down.

[00:08:58] And so I'm not proud of that, but I just felt like I was becoming really.

[00:09:03] You shouldn't feel that way.

[00:09:05] But I know.

[00:09:05] But it's like.

[00:09:07] I don't know.

[00:09:07] I felt.

[00:09:10] I guess I just felt like I was just having some sort of anxiety thing.

[00:09:14] And.

[00:09:15] Well, that tends to happen when you go without sleep, food and water.

[00:09:19] Well, I tend to be.

[00:09:20] I have.

[00:09:21] I have generalized anxiety disorder myself, so I'm not really great on that front on a good day.

[00:09:27] It's something that I struggle with a lot, but it's been.

[00:09:31] It just.

[00:09:32] I don't know.

[00:09:32] We saw some really bad things and I felt awful and I.

[00:09:39] I just sometimes feel bad because I feel like we're part of the circus to an extent.

[00:09:44] I don't like it.

[00:09:44] I don't think it needs to be a circus.

[00:09:46] I think it could be much more orderly and respectful of the whole thing.

[00:09:51] And I don't want to quit and not be shining a light on stuff, but I also.

[00:09:56] We don't want to die.

[00:09:57] Well, no, it's not even that.

[00:09:58] I just.

[00:09:58] It makes me feel.

[00:10:00] I don't know.

[00:10:01] It's just.

[00:10:02] I didn't.

[00:10:03] I didn't think this would be an easy process, but I feel like it's become a lot.

[00:10:08] Yeah.

[00:10:08] My own health, physical and darker.

[00:10:11] It's like a dark process.

[00:10:12] It's like not.

[00:10:13] Is suffering.

[00:10:14] Yeah, it's not good.

[00:10:15] But anyways, I apologize.

[00:10:17] So the afternoon session, the notes are completely from Kevin because I was off like hyperventilating

[00:10:21] somewhere.

[00:10:22] And before we start, I just.

[00:10:24] I keep mentioning this, but I do want to mention that YouTuber Bob Mata.

[00:10:30] He has a reserve seat.

[00:10:32] He always strides in just a few minutes before court opens and he is sitting in the defense

[00:10:36] section.

[00:10:37] And I just highlight that because if you choose to listen to or support him, you need to understand

[00:10:45] that what you are hearing is basically whatever the defense team wants you to hear because

[00:10:50] he is a part of that.

[00:10:51] And they are rewarding him for that with this seat.

[00:10:56] So it's not an unbiased take.

[00:10:58] You're getting.

[00:10:59] He is a show.

[00:11:00] And if you want to listen to a show, that's entirely your decision.

[00:11:08] I'm just saying, be aware that it is in fact a show.

[00:11:11] So the first witness today was Darren Giacola.

[00:11:16] Who is that?

[00:11:18] Darren Giacola works with the Carroll County Sheriff's Office.

[00:11:22] He's been there since 2011 and he is now a detective.

[00:11:28] And so he is somebody who's important to this case because he was one of the first.

[00:11:35] Well, actually on February 13th, 2017, which was the day the girls went missing, that was

[00:11:40] a day off for him.

[00:11:42] He ordinarily worked the night shift 6 p.m. to 6 a.m.

[00:11:45] This was a scheduled day off.

[00:11:49] But he became aware via social media that the girls were missing.

[00:11:56] And so on his own, he came in to help.

[00:11:58] Yeah.

[00:11:59] Again, once again, I feel like we're seeing a side of Carroll County that's not often talked

[00:12:03] about where you have people in a small community willing to help out their neighbors, even in

[00:12:09] a situation like this where, you know, this man was had time off, could have enjoyed that,

[00:12:13] but instead was out working to deal with what everyone thought at the time was just some

[00:12:18] possibly tragic accident or situation where they could rescue these girls who may have

[00:12:22] become injured or lost.

[00:12:24] And he mentioned that one of the things he did early on was he tried to look at some electronic

[00:12:28] devices from, I believe Libby, but they were locked.

[00:12:33] So he wasn't able to get information out of them.

[00:12:37] So he went out to search an area.

[00:12:40] And where did he go?

[00:12:43] So I'm looking at my notes now.

[00:12:45] My understanding is he went out to the trails.

[00:12:51] Is that right?

[00:12:52] Like on the, was it, was it, did he start off on the south side?

[00:12:56] Didn't he go out to the public access road?

[00:12:59] The public access road?

[00:13:01] The Webber's driveway.

[00:13:03] Okay.

[00:13:03] So we're hearing a lot about Brad Webber's driveway.

[00:13:05] So the Webber's are our family who live in that area of Delphi near the trails.

[00:13:10] They own some of that property.

[00:13:13] And, and so, you know, access road, things like that.

[00:13:18] That's all stuff that has, has been coming up quite a lot.

[00:13:23] And he talked about searching kind of this area with a flashlight.

[00:13:29] One thing I think the defense asked him at one point was just, or maybe the, maybe the prosecution preemptively asked him, like, could you see far beyond the, the beam of the flashlight?

[00:13:39] And he noted, no, I'm sure anyone who's been out in the woods with a flashlight for whatever reason, you know, that that's not necessarily something that's going to be, it's going to help you with visibility, but it's not going to make it.

[00:13:49] So it's same as daylight, obviously.

[00:13:52] Right.

[00:13:53] And he got notified around 2 a.m. that the official search was being called off.

[00:14:01] But right before that happened, he saw something interesting.

[00:14:05] Yeah.

[00:14:05] So this is something he saw odd, that was, that he characterized as, quote, odd.

[00:14:10] And it was at the top of the bridge.

[00:14:14] It was at the, the north, north side, the north, northern end of the bridge.

[00:14:18] Was that what he said?

[00:14:20] No, not.

[00:14:21] I'm not.

[00:14:22] He basically talked about like a little, almost like rock slide.

[00:14:27] Of leaves.

[00:14:27] Of leaves.

[00:14:28] But weren't there also rocks in there or am I, did I write that wrong?

[00:14:32] Maybe there were some rocks, but basically.

[00:14:34] Exposed areas of dirt as well.

[00:14:35] Yes.

[00:14:36] And so it seemed odd.

[00:14:38] Like what, what would have caused that?

[00:14:39] And I said north side, but was that, was that on the area of the bridge where the girls are now believed to have been abducted?

[00:14:47] I believe so.

[00:14:48] That was my understanding.

[00:14:49] And so pictures of this disturbance of the leaves, almost like someone was sliding down that area.

[00:14:56] They were actually admitted as exhibits.

[00:14:59] Yes.

[00:15:00] And he pointed out the, this disturbance of the leaves to a member of the fire department.

[00:15:07] And as I mentioned, he searched till about 2 a.m.

[00:15:10] And he did know that while he was doing this search, he did not believe that the girls had been murdered.

[00:15:17] He had, he was thinking about and remembering instances where juveniles has simply run away.

[00:15:23] And so he was thinking it would be something along those lines.

[00:15:27] Yeah.

[00:15:27] And he noted he didn't know the girls in question.

[00:15:30] So he didn't know like their characters or like if that would be something that would happen with them or their home lives or whatever.

[00:15:36] So it wasn't like he was making that assumption.

[00:15:39] It was just more of like this may just be something where it's like some big misunderstanding.

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[00:17:19] And then, so the next day, there was discussion.

[00:17:27] This is, of course, February 14th, 2017.

[00:17:30] My understanding is that there were some calls between Giancola and then-Detective Tony Liggett.

[00:17:43] Yeah.

[00:17:44] Yeah.

[00:17:44] Prior to that, though, he was calling landowners who might have trail cams to see if that might have picked up anything.

[00:17:52] And at one point, he was actually going to go out to a particular address where a man had trail cams to see if he could pick anything up.

[00:17:59] But then Tony Liggett told him to get out to the cemetery.

[00:18:04] And as he gets out to the cemetery, he sees a very distraught woman coming up a hill.

[00:18:12] I believe this was maybe possibly Becky Patty's sister, Melissa.

[00:18:18] That is my guess.

[00:18:20] And, of course, Giancola at this point was with Deputy Yoder.

[00:18:23] So he was not alone.

[00:18:24] They were coming together.

[00:18:27] And he was told that there was possibly bodies down near the water's edge.

[00:18:34] And he said he encountered about four people on the north side of the creek.

[00:18:38] Well, let's not – I think there's an important detail here that we can't overlook.

[00:18:44] Look, after he sees this distraught woman coming up the hill, he goes down to the creek, whereas Anya correctly knows he does note some people there.

[00:18:54] But on his way down to the creek, he does not notice the bodies.

[00:18:59] Yeah.

[00:18:59] He said – you know, the first thing he noticed was in the water.

[00:19:05] He said, quote, I looked over and I could see a multicolored shirt and I think a tennis shoe.

[00:19:13] And these were visible in the water.

[00:19:15] That's the first sign that he sees that something's wrong.

[00:19:17] But this detail about the bodies I think is crucial because it underscores that it is very easy even in daylight, even when you're in that area.

[00:19:27] This is like a wooded area.

[00:19:29] It's very easy not to see these bodies.

[00:19:31] It's very easy not to see these bodies.

[00:19:32] And this is a guy who is told there might be some bodies here.

[00:19:35] So this is a guy who is a trained observer who is looking for them.

[00:19:39] And yet again, I mean, the thing we keep hearing again and again from this prosecution's case is that people didn't see the bodies from certain vantage points or it was hard to see.

[00:19:49] It's the woods even though the foliage is – there's no – it's February.

[00:19:54] It's still not necessarily super easy just because the topography.

[00:19:58] And while that part of the – you know, where the bodies were found is relatively flat because it's in – you know, comparatively to some of the other areas, it almost seems like maybe there's almost a bit of issues with the landscape where it's not as even as you would think.

[00:20:15] And therefore things remain concealed.

[00:20:17] So now when he gets down by the creek, this is where – when he actually has the encounter that Anya spoke of.

[00:20:22] This is where someone tells him there's actually bodies behind you.

[00:20:27] And he had not noticed this.

[00:20:28] He turns and he sees something white.

[00:20:32] It's not obvious to him that it's bodies.

[00:20:35] So he goes over there and that is when he sees the bodies.

[00:20:39] And he knows that both Abby and Libby had large lacerations to the throat and both had large amounts of blood on them.

[00:20:50] He said, quote, one was nude, the other was clothed, end quote.

[00:20:53] Of course, Libby was found in the nude and Abby was clothed partly in Liberty's clothing.

[00:21:01] I felt he got a little bit emotional when he was sort of responding to some of the questions about first seeing them.

[00:21:08] Did you have that impression?

[00:21:10] I did.

[00:21:11] And he also indicated he did not attempt any life-saving measures because, quote, it was apparent they were deceased.

[00:21:18] So he contacted Liga and then he stood guards.

[00:21:22] Other officers soon arrived.

[00:21:26] Yeah.

[00:21:28] Obviously, this is not what anyone expected to find.

[00:21:34] Do you want to talk about the Baldwin?

[00:21:36] Andy Baldwin did the cross-examination.

[00:21:38] Yeah.

[00:21:39] Baldwin did the cross-examination.

[00:21:43] It wasn't particularly long.

[00:21:45] I remember one thing he took issue with was, you know, he wanted to, I guess, you know, he wanted, this kind of one didn't really work out.

[00:22:00] But he was kind of like trying to gauge his reaction to the slide marks that he saw near the bridge.

[00:22:07] And he clarified again, like, I was surprised, like, you know, he had previously said I thought that was odd.

[00:22:12] So he was just, you know, kind of reiterating what he said already.

[00:22:15] He saw the slide marks with the flashlight, the dearth beneath the slide marks.

[00:22:20] And so that was, you know, something key.

[00:22:23] Baldwin also asked something about, like, 4.33 a.m.

[00:22:26] That's...

[00:22:26] He said you stopped the search at 2 a.m.

[00:22:29] And this was before 4.33 a.m., correct?

[00:22:32] And this, of course, is because their theory is that the actual killer of the girls, for some reason, turned on Liberty's phone at 4.33 a.m.

[00:22:44] As this actual killer or killers was in the process of returning the girls to the area where they had been kidnapped from for reasons which are unclear.

[00:22:56] Yeah.

[00:22:57] Yeah.

[00:22:59] He also, Baldwin, wanted to stress that the shirt, the multicolored shirt was pretty visible.

[00:23:07] Yeah.

[00:23:08] And also, Baldwin did make this point that I thought was good.

[00:23:12] Initially, Giancola said that both girls were kind of covered in blood or kind of used language around that.

[00:23:18] And he got him to clarify that, you know, Libby was certainly covered in blood.

[00:23:22] With Abby, it was mostly around the neck wound and maybe some around her.

[00:23:30] So it wasn't necessarily to the same extent that Libby.

[00:23:34] And then one really important thing, because this kind of potentially conflicts with the defense's theory of the case,

[00:23:40] was I think if the defense needs the girls to have been kidnapped, transported back, and killed on the site,

[00:23:47] then there would be no reason for them to have crossed the creek.

[00:23:51] Is that fair to say?

[00:23:52] Yes.

[00:23:53] I mean, unless they want to add that element to it, too.

[00:23:55] But let's just say, like, that doesn't really make any sense.

[00:23:57] So one thing that Baldwin asked about was essentially about Abby's clothing.

[00:24:05] And he noted that he thought – he apparently thought that Abby's clothing appeared wet.

[00:24:11] Baldwin asked him to sort of say, like, was there almost like kind of a line?

[00:24:14] Like, as if, like, you know, if you walk – if you're in your jeans and you walk through, you know, a body of water,

[00:24:21] maybe, like, it goes up to the knee and all that's wet, but then the rest of it's dry.

[00:24:26] And Giancola didn't really remember some sort of delineating line there.

[00:24:30] He just had the impression that they were wet.

[00:24:33] And then he talked about how he had AT&T for his personal cell phone.

[00:24:37] And the Carroll County Sheriff's Office now has FirstNet through AT&T.

[00:24:43] Didn't really remember what they used back then.

[00:24:45] But his phone was working when he was receiving that call from Liggett and things like that.

[00:24:53] And then in Redirect, Dick McClellan brought out that in some general sense of things,

[00:25:00] you could almost think of this area around the Monon High Bridge as being an area where there's, like, peaks and valleys.

[00:25:08] You know, not literal really big mountain peaks and really deep valleys, but just, you know, where there's kind of dips and rises.

[00:25:15] And if you think of it that way, where the girls' bodies were found were in a valley.

[00:25:22] Absolutely. And then Baldwin declined to recross.

[00:25:25] There were some juror questions.

[00:25:27] Yeah.

[00:25:27] Do you want to talk about those?

[00:25:30] So one juror wanted to know more about the electronics that were mentioned earlier.

[00:25:35] So what kind of electronics was Giancola looking at?

[00:25:38] And the answer was an iPad tablet, perhaps.

[00:25:42] And the iPad was locked.

[00:25:45] And they didn't know how to unlock it.

[00:25:48] So all they could access from it at that time was, like, notifications of people who, like, tried to call them unsuccessfully.

[00:25:58] And so that did give law enforcement a list of phone numbers of people who were concerned about the girls.

[00:26:05] And so they called them to try to get more information, but didn't really get anything.

[00:26:10] Yeah.

[00:26:12] So, you know, interesting that they're continuing to look at, you know, all the details.

[00:26:17] And this is an engaged jury.

[00:26:19] And for all of you who don't know, because as we learned from talking with our friends, the prosecutors, Brett and Alice, the other day, having jurors ask questions is not necessarily the norm in both states.

[00:26:28] Don't worry, don't worry, all you non-Hoosiers.

[00:26:32] The jurors are not just wildly getting out of their seats and shouting out questions.

[00:26:36] Here's how it works.

[00:26:37] They write down a question at the end.

[00:26:40] Judge Gull asks them anyone got any questions in a more formal way than that.

[00:26:45] The jurors hand potential questions to a bailiff who passes it on to the judge, who then has a sidebar with the parties in the case.

[00:26:54] And everybody gets to OK it and say, yes, this is an appropriate question.

[00:26:58] And then she reads it aloud, addressing it to the witness.

[00:27:02] And that is how the system works.

[00:27:04] And it's an opportunity for both attorneys, both sides, rather, to kind of get a sense of where the jury's head's at.

[00:27:11] So from here on out, the witnesses that testified dealt with, they were CSIs.

[00:27:20] They were crime scene investigators.

[00:27:23] And the prosecutor who presented these witnesses was James Luttrell, who was also the gentleman who dealt with this sort of testimony at the three-day hearing over the summer.

[00:27:37] He was the person at that hearing, got a lot of details about the murders of the girls from a blood spatter expert named Pat Cicero.

[00:27:47] I think it might be pronounced Luttrell.

[00:27:49] Luttrell.

[00:27:50] I apologize.

[00:27:51] No, you're fine.

[00:27:52] I'm very, very tired.

[00:27:54] He really does.

[00:27:56] I apologize to him and to his family.

[00:27:59] He really does a great job with this sort of thing.

[00:28:05] He is able to, in my mind, to really present an air of calm and empathy and, dare I say, grace when he deals with these very tough questions and very, very tough details.

[00:28:26] So in my mind, he was a really good choice to handle this.

[00:28:30] Yeah, I agree.

[00:28:31] Especially after the Pat Cicero experience, you know, back then.

[00:28:36] I thought he was a good choice for this.

[00:28:38] He just, I think everything you say is completely accurate here.

[00:28:41] Yes.

[00:28:42] He's very, very good at this.

[00:28:44] So the first witness was Sergeant Jason Page, who, a crime scene investigator for the Indiana State Police.

[00:28:54] He explained that crime scene investigators document a crime scene with photos, sketches, notes, fingerprints.

[00:29:00] They look for trace evidence.

[00:29:02] One thing I found really interesting about this man was a detail in his background that I did not expect.

[00:29:09] You know what I'm referring to?

[00:29:10] No, what?

[00:29:11] He graduated from the Heron School of Art of IU.

[00:29:16] Oh, yeah.

[00:29:17] Yeah, that was interesting because he's like an expert in photography.

[00:29:20] Yeah.

[00:29:21] Which, you know, I guess when you think about it, you want to have a person who does this sort of job, you know, to really understand, you know, cameras and photography.

[00:29:30] And so that's, it's just me being a naive and foolish man who mispronounces lawyers' names.

[00:29:36] No, you're not a naive and foolish man.

[00:29:38] You're very good.

[00:29:39] I love you.

[00:29:42] He estimated that he's worked about 950 to 1,000 different crime scenes.

[00:29:50] Some of these crime scenes obviously are murders and some of them involve knives and firearms.

[00:29:58] So a pretty good choice for this.

[00:30:01] And do you want to talk about how he got involved in the case?

[00:30:07] Well, my understanding is he came into things February 14th, 2017.

[00:30:11] The bodies are found and he was not alone.

[00:30:13] The lead crime scene investigator on the case from the Lafayette, Indiana State Police Post was Brian Olahe.

[00:30:19] Am I saying that right?

[00:30:20] I believe so.

[00:30:21] Olahe.

[00:30:24] So Olahe, they're both at the same level, I guess, and they're both assigned.

[00:30:29] But I think Sergeant Page was with the Peru Post.

[00:30:36] So it's not at all unusual for them to collaborate, especially on a case like this where it definitely needs a lot of crime scene investigation.

[00:30:46] And, you know, they often do a lot of work with other agencies and whatnot.

[00:30:49] So he parked his vehicle at the cemetery and walked down a steep hill.

[00:30:53] And then there was also another CSI, Wayne Gatzman.

[00:31:02] Wayne Gatzman.

[00:31:03] Dwayne, I'm sorry.

[00:31:04] Dwayne Gatzman.

[00:31:05] And they came up with a rough plan.

[00:31:10] Meanwhile, at the same time, one must remember that a dive team was searching Deer Creek.

[00:31:18] The girls, articles of the girls' clothing had been dumped in Deer Creek.

[00:31:22] So they were trying to look for more evidence in there.

[00:31:26] And one of the things he does, as we mentioned, is he takes pictures.

[00:31:32] And he took pictures of the crime scene.

[00:31:36] And I did not know this.

[00:31:39] The other day, I believe in our, perhaps it was our Saturday episode, I said in some way the testimony I was hearing reminded me of 9-11.

[00:31:51] Because that's when the whole world changed.

[00:31:53] You know, we have a September 10th world.

[00:31:55] We have a September 11th world.

[00:31:57] And it feels like on the day these girls went missing, that was kind of like a 9-11, a cataclysmic event in the lives of the city of Delphi.

[00:32:06] And to some extent in the lives of all of us who care about those girls.

[00:32:11] And what's interesting is the World Trade Center was destroyed and people called that Ground Zero.

[00:32:18] And these crime scene investigators referred to the area immediately around the bodies of these two precious girls also is Ground Zero.

[00:32:27] Yes.

[00:32:28] And he took pictures of it and they showed those pictures, including close-ups of the wounds, the gruesome wounds.

[00:32:39] And it was disturbing to see.

[00:32:42] It was really disturbing to see.

[00:32:46] Yeah.

[00:32:48] It was a lot.

[00:32:50] There were like a lot of exhibits kind of going through each one to describe them.

[00:32:57] Some of the crime scene pictures weren't graphic necessarily because they were more of Paige talking about, here is the landscape.

[00:33:07] I mean, the goal here is to take the jury into the crime scene so that they can better see and understand it.

[00:33:14] And so a lot of them were that.

[00:33:15] But there were other ones that were, you know, hard to look at.

[00:33:23] And just, you know, these are little girls.

[00:33:27] It's just, I don't know, never, shouldn't, you know, I don't, like, why did this happen, you know?

[00:33:36] And I think the jury was really disturbed as well.

[00:33:42] I saw they looked, I guess, ashen-faced might be a good descriptor.

[00:33:52] When I saw them, they looked very tense.

[00:33:55] They looked upset, as they should be.

[00:34:03] And he described some of his techniques.

[00:34:09] He put some plastic tarp on the ground so that he would not transfer anything from himself to the crime scene and contaminate it.

[00:34:19] And it also came up that they, instead of working on both girls and analyzing and documenting their wounds and what happened to them separately, they worked, the whole team would work on one girl at a time.

[00:34:37] And the first one they worked on was Libby.

[00:34:43] And that's because she was unclothed.

[00:34:46] And so it was easier to see and document her injuries.

[00:34:55] Also, one thing I should note, it brought up that Mr. Luttrell made a point of asking each of these crime scene investigators, did you have a gun or did you own a gun with this particular type of ammunition?

[00:35:11] Because as we know, a .40 caliber cartridge was found at the crime scene.

[00:35:19] And so when you think, well, there are all these Indian State Police investigators walking around.

[00:35:24] Isn't it possible that it came out of one of their weapons?

[00:35:28] And so he wants to head that off at the pass, which is good thinking, obviously.

[00:35:36] That's probably part of the reason why they explained the thing about the tarp.

[00:35:40] And he, Page, said he did not own, he did not have any .40 caliber ammunition with him.

[00:35:48] One other thing that actually came up in terms of technique I wanted to mention is that Page mentioned kind of stringing out a yellow rope.

[00:35:56] And my understanding and tell me that came up in some of the crime scene images.

[00:36:00] So the whole place, the area is taped off with crime scene tape.

[00:36:04] And there's a yellow rope there as well that appears in some of the pictures that he used to essentially give them almost a path that was like almost clear to walk through to access the scene.

[00:36:18] Is that?

[00:36:19] Yeah, they figured out, they analyzed the scene and determined, well, there's little disturbance here.

[00:36:26] So there's no evidence really that a person was like walking in this area recently.

[00:36:31] So if we walk in this one particular area, we're not going to be disturbing any particular evidence.

[00:36:36] It was really fascinating to me how meticulous these people are and how they have a kind of a detailed process to do everything right.

[00:36:45] Yeah, I was struck by how much focus and detail it really did.

[00:36:51] It did seem like a very complicated process.

[00:36:58] They applied chemicals and stuff on trees and stuff to see if there were bloodstains because sometimes the color of the blood kind of is hard to see on a tree.

[00:37:08] Yeah, the bloodstains, the chemicals would react in such a way with the bloodstains that it would turn it violet in color.

[00:37:14] So that would allow them to see.

[00:37:16] And like he pointed out one instance where it almost was like a reddish hue to, I think, the ground or the bark or whatnot.

[00:37:23] And turned out that that was just naturally occurring.

[00:37:25] There was no bloodstain.

[00:37:26] And that was something they learned through the chemicals.

[00:37:29] So it was also allowing them to rule out areas where maybe they thought there was something and there was actually nothing.

[00:37:35] There were close-up pictures of these kind of large bloodstains on the ground.

[00:37:40] To be clear, this is one thing that has come up.

[00:37:47] But like over the years, there's been the talk that the girls were abducted and then killed elsewhere and then their bodies brought back.

[00:37:54] And listen, crimes are weird.

[00:37:56] So, I mean, I don't dismiss things like that out of hand because I'm sure we could find some cases where stuff like that has happened.

[00:38:02] I mean, you often hear about bodies being moved.

[00:38:06] But the thing about that is that there's usually some telltale signs that that's happened at the crime scene.

[00:38:11] And what we have here is blood soaked through the ground for these girls.

[00:38:18] I mean, it really today underscored for me they were killed at this scene.

[00:38:25] I mean, I don't see how you could look at these photos and think anything else, I guess.

[00:38:32] Because there's blood everywhere.

[00:38:35] I mean, is that – what was your impression?

[00:38:39] I think it's obvious that they were killed at the scene.

[00:38:43] I think the defense would have us believe that they were killed on the scene, that scene substantially later than –

[00:38:50] Oh, yeah.

[00:38:50] I'm not disputing the defenses.

[00:38:52] I'm not even talking about that.

[00:38:53] I'm just saying over the years rumors that maybe the bodies were planted.

[00:38:57] I'm just saying that, like, this should put that to rest.

[00:39:00] They were killed there.

[00:39:02] Is there anything else you wanted to say about the direct examination?

[00:39:08] Let me see.

[00:39:10] Because that's the end of your notes.

[00:39:11] And so after that, people just have to deal with me.

[00:39:14] No, your notes are better anyway.

[00:39:16] Anyway, I – yeah.

[00:39:19] I noted – we were sitting on the left side of the courtroom when you're facing the judge.

[00:39:26] And so that meant we really – I didn't have much of a view of Richard Allen at all.

[00:39:31] So I wasn't really able to observe how he was doing.

[00:39:34] But, you know, this is a situation where people are often interested in how he's doing throughout these things.

[00:39:39] At one point, I noted that he had his head turned toward the screen.

[00:39:42] But, of course, I could not see his expression.

[00:39:44] So I don't know how he was reacting to that or if there was any reaction at all.

[00:39:49] But at least at one point, he seemed to be in a position to observe what was being displayed there.

[00:39:59] So now I guess it's me.

[00:40:01] And feel free to interrupt because otherwise people get very, very tired of my voice very quickly.

[00:40:06] You're delightful.

[00:40:07] So cross-examination was done by Brad Rosie and it was pretty aggressive.

[00:40:15] And one thing that – a common theme you'll notice in some of these questions is that he was asking Paige about things that weren't really within Paige's job.

[00:40:27] Rosie said, for instance, the girls were last seen on February 13th and they were found on February 14th.

[00:40:33] So do you have an opinion on their time of death?

[00:40:35] And Paige said, you know, that's not my job.

[00:40:38] And then Rosie started raising some – again, some distasteful issues.

[00:40:44] I think these were raised by Baldwin on Saturday.

[00:40:47] He talked about scavenger animals like coyotes and even raccoons.

[00:40:54] And I guess the implication was if the girls actually had been killed the day before, their bodies would have been ravaged in some way by these animals.

[00:41:05] He also mentioned what about flies?

[00:41:08] I think he was trying to suggest that if the girls had really been killed the afternoon before, there had been a lot of flies there.

[00:41:16] It was February.

[00:41:18] Yeah.

[00:41:19] And the gentleman Paige said, you know, there are many different variables.

[00:41:22] Maybe sometimes you'd have a situation with flies.

[00:41:24] Maybe other times you wouldn't.

[00:41:25] These things don't really –

[00:41:27] Yeah.

[00:41:28] Yeah.

[00:41:32] I mean, like, I guess I think that's an important point.

[00:41:36] The defense is going to raise these issues, but just because something might be true in some instances doesn't make it true at all.

[00:41:43] But, you know, they got to raise them.

[00:41:46] There was kind of a surreal moment that – good thing Anya wasn't there because it might have given her whiplash – where Rosie said, were you aware that information about the crime scene leaked early on?

[00:42:01] And it's kind of odd for the defense to be –

[00:42:04] By us.

[00:42:07] By the defense.

[00:42:08] Yeah.

[00:42:09] No, no, no.

[00:42:10] Not us, the murder sheet.

[00:42:11] I mean by –

[00:42:12] And Paige was like baffled by this and he said, are you talking about like now or back when the girls were found?

[00:42:18] To be clear, are you talking about seven years ago?

[00:42:21] Because I think he was thinking – all of us were thinking about that incident about a year ago when crime scene pictures were leaked by a close friend and associate of defense attorney Andrew Baldwin.

[00:42:36] Mitch Westerman.

[00:42:37] Yes.

[00:42:38] Rosie again was asking.

[00:42:39] Remember, Rosie downplayed that a lot of the time basically indicating those.

[00:42:44] NBD.

[00:42:45] He was asking more questions about things that Paige really – it wasn't really within his wheelhouse.

[00:42:52] He was asking Paige, was there a rape kit done on the girls?

[00:42:56] And Paige said, well, maybe the autopsy.

[00:42:58] You know, I didn't attend the autopsy.

[00:43:00] So he's basically conflating CSIs with like coroners and medical examiners?

[00:43:07] Because obviously they're different things.

[00:43:11] What do you think the strategy is just to make him say, I don't – that's not my job and make him sound lazy or something?

[00:43:18] Your guess is as good as mine.

[00:43:20] The jurors will be like, this guy's not doing anything.

[00:43:23] He was saying – Rosie was saying, was there something unique about the sticks on the bodies?

[00:43:29] And Paige was saying, no.

[00:43:32] And Paige says, are you asking my opinion about the stick placement?

[00:43:37] Rosie wanted to know if the sticks were examined.

[00:43:40] Paige said they found nothing of significance on the sticks.

[00:43:46] They asked the question about Abby's clothes being wet.

[00:43:52] And the answer was that it was obvious, at least to Paige, that she was in the water up to her knees.

[00:44:02] Which I imagine would be a pretty difficult thing to overcome for – I mean, I don't know.

[00:44:08] Like, how does that fit?

[00:44:10] I want to know how that fits into this defense theory.

[00:44:13] Is the defense theory that they were brought back to the General Woods, they escaped momentarily, ran through the creek, and then were caught?

[00:44:22] I'm very interested to hear the details of the defense theory because it's coming out bit by bit like this.

[00:44:28] Yeah, how are you – maybe they're trying to have a bit by bit so they can kind of tailor and adjust as more facts come out.

[00:44:34] But it just feels like if multiple people are saying that her clothing was wet or damp, it feels very difficult.

[00:44:40] Like, how do you account for that?

[00:44:43] It didn't rain as far as I'm aware of.

[00:44:47] So how does this fit into the kidnapping element of it?

[00:44:52] And by kidnapping, I mean kidnapped, taken away from the scene, brought back, Libby's phone turned on, dropped.

[00:44:59] The girls are killed so that Abby falls over the phone and Libby's shoe.

[00:45:06] And how does this happen?

[00:45:09] How are they wet?

[00:45:12] Along that, Rosie wanted to know if Paige had taken any measurements of the depths of Deer Creek.

[00:45:19] And Paige did not.

[00:45:21] Again, that seems outside his job.

[00:45:25] They talked about the photo of blood on a tree, the so-called F tree.

[00:45:30] And Rosie was saying, well, you know, they call it that because there's blood on it in the shape of an F.

[00:45:37] And Paige said, well, I think that's the reason some people refer to it as that.

[00:45:41] I refer to it as a blood state.

[00:45:47] Didn't he show a picture of Libby's hand at one point?

[00:45:53] Which was like covered in blood?

[00:45:54] Yeah, I think so.

[00:45:55] So, yeah.

[00:46:00] Then there was the account of the discovery of the bullet, or I guess to be more accurate, I should say the cartridge.

[00:46:08] This was the unfired bullet that was found at the crime scene.

[00:46:15] So, two of the CSIs put on special glasses because they were using what they call an ALS, which is an alternate light source, which enables them to pick up more detail.

[00:46:28] The one who didn't use these glasses, was able to get a better idea of shiny things.

[00:46:37] And as they're doing this, he sees something shiny, and they realized that it was the bullet or the cartridge.

[00:46:46] And so, this is where Rosie starts making a big deal about how the recovery, for lack of a better word, of this cartridge was documented.

[00:47:04] Because it was, I guess it was partially in the ground, and it was photographed in such a way that you could see not the tip of the bullet, but you can only see the back of the bullet.

[00:47:14] Because I believe the rest was at least partially in the ground.

[00:47:17] And so, they took a picture of it in the ground, and that was it.

[00:47:21] And then they retrieve it, and they put it in some sort of packaging.

[00:47:25] I think some paper packaging, and they label it.

[00:47:30] And this is the procedure they use to keep track of the evidence.

[00:47:35] And Rosie and later Baldwin were very upset about this.

[00:47:40] They said, you know, how is the jury going to know that the bullet in evidence is the bullet that was recovered unless, oh, you should like videotape yourself removing the bullet.

[00:47:50] What?

[00:47:50] Or you should take pictures of yourself removing the bullet.

[00:47:55] Is that standard operating procedure?

[00:47:58] No.

[00:47:58] It's not?

[00:48:00] Not according to the testimony in court today.

[00:48:03] I mean, listen, I want things to be by the book, right?

[00:48:06] And if that's not in the book, then that just sounds like a ploy to try to...

[00:48:11] I mean, what are they suggesting, that it was planted by the Odinus police?

[00:48:19] Rosie really pounded the idea that the complete bullet, a picture of that, should have been taken in somebody's hand.

[00:48:27] Or on a...

[00:48:28] Maybe take a selfie with it.

[00:48:29] I mean, I'm sorry, what?

[00:48:30] Or on a table.

[00:48:35] And Paige said, you know, if they choose to photograph it on a table, I guess they could.

[00:48:40] But I don't know what the purpose is.

[00:48:41] But...

[00:48:42] Wouldn't that possibly contaminate it?

[00:48:46] If there's, like, DNA on it?

[00:48:48] I don't know.

[00:48:49] That just seems...

[00:48:50] Weren't we told...

[00:48:51] Like, weren't there rumors swirling around?

[00:48:53] Correct me if I'm wrong.

[00:48:55] Weren't there rumors swirling around or even reported by some people that, like, oh, the bullet was, you know, lost?

[00:49:01] Or the bullet was, like, you know, they didn't find it for weeks later.

[00:49:05] And then, you know, it turns out that they didn't film themselves taking it out of the ground.

[00:49:10] And that's the big fuss.

[00:49:11] Yeah, I believe a major media outlet erroneously reported that the bullet wasn't found until after the crime scene had been released.

[00:49:20] Wow, I wonder if anything will happen about that.

[00:49:22] Probably not.

[00:49:24] Anyways, you know, I think this is...

[00:49:27] I mean, I don't know.

[00:49:28] Like, I guess it's one of those things where I'm, like, if this were a situation where it was, like, wow, you normally film all of this and here's how it's normally done.

[00:49:38] And in Delphi it didn't happen normally.

[00:49:41] Then I think they would have a pretty big issue on their hands.

[00:49:43] Because it's, like, why didn't it happen normally?

[00:49:45] Why weren't you following standard operating procedure?

[00:49:48] If it's a situation where it's, like, why didn't you do these random things that we're suggesting now years later, even though you never do that in any other case, then I don't know.

[00:50:00] I guess that doesn't hold as much water with me.

[00:50:03] Then Rosie brought up something that sounds vaguely familiar to me, but I can't quite place it.

[00:50:08] I wonder if you can and if you can't, I'm sure somebody out there can.

[00:50:14] And he mentions, you know, at one point, Paige goes down this private lane that leads to the Weber property.

[00:50:23] And Rosie says, well, when you were down there, did you see the tree with all the shoes on it?

[00:50:32] What?

[00:50:33] That does not ring a bell.

[00:50:34] I'm sorry.

[00:50:35] Had to ask.

[00:50:36] Did you see the tree with all the shoes on it?

[00:50:39] Okay.

[00:50:40] Well, you know, I guess we'll find out at some point.

[00:50:48] So then time for redirect.

[00:50:51] And since Rosie had brought up a bug and insect activity, you know, Prosecutor Luttrell asked, did you notice any bug or insect activity?

[00:51:01] And the answer was no.

[00:51:04] And he also wanted to make sure people understood.

[00:51:08] And it was clarified that the discovery of the cartridge or the bullet occurred prior to Libby's body being moved out.

[00:51:18] And Luttrell also asked, if you had taken a picture of the cartridge on a table, would that give you any more information about it?

[00:51:26] And the answer was no.

[00:51:30] I just think that sounds really arbitrary.

[00:51:35] The recross was, aren't you supposed to preserve as much evidence and information from a crime scene as possible?

[00:51:45] Wouldn't it be helpful to take pictures or video of the bullet being pulled out of the ground so this jury could know that it's the same one?

[00:51:54] So, yeah, they are suggesting basically that the possibility exists of a bullet switch, which is interesting because they are alternatively suggesting the ballistic science is bunk and that it can't be trusted.

[00:52:09] The ballistic science is bunk.

[00:52:10] It can't be trusted.

[00:52:12] You're going to see with your own eyes.

[00:52:14] This is what they said in What Dear.

[00:52:15] You're going to see with your own eyes that it's not a match.

[00:52:17] It doesn't match.

[00:52:18] By the way, it is a match, but it was planted.

[00:52:20] Yeah, it's like, okay, which, I don't know.

[00:52:22] I guess you're trying to attack it from all angles and maybe hope one of them sticks.

[00:52:27] Would that be, is that good or does that just confuse people?

[00:52:31] If you give people as many reasons as possible to have reasonable doubt, that's, I mean, that's not a bad strategy.

[00:52:36] Yeah, okay.

[00:52:36] So, I mean, they're going to do what they're going to do.

[00:52:40] So, the next witness of the day was Dwayne Gassman, who is retired from the Indiana State Police.

[00:52:48] They asked him how long he'd been retired, and he said three years and one month ago.

[00:52:52] So, he knows exactly how long he has been retired.

[00:52:56] He spent the last 20 years of his career with the Indiana State Police in the laboratory as a criminal, as a CSI crime scene investigator.

[00:53:08] I thought this was a guy you looked at, and you could tell this guy has done a lot of testifying in court.

[00:53:14] Because virtually every time he was asked a question, he would kind of nod, and then he would turn and look straight at the jury and answer it in loud, clear voice.

[00:53:23] He's trained to do it.

[00:53:26] And his story that he tells has a lot of similarities to the story that we just heard from Paige.

[00:53:36] He was at the Lafayette Post of the United State Police.

[00:53:40] He gets word about this catastrophe in Delphi of the girls' bodies being discovered.

[00:53:46] So, he goes there.

[00:53:48] It's February 14, 2017.

[00:53:50] He arrives at 1.11 p.m.

[00:53:53] He walks down the trail to Ground Zero.

[00:53:57] A barrier tape had already been set up.

[00:54:00] He starts taking pictures of the scene.

[00:54:04] And he says what you do is you start taking pictures like far away from the scene to get as much detail as possible.

[00:54:11] And then gradually you start moving closer and closer.

[00:54:15] That's what Paige said, too.

[00:54:16] Start wide and then get more and more narrow.

[00:54:19] After that, he is also the one who took some aerial photographs of the scene from a helicopter.

[00:54:28] Again, to cut off the possibility of the cartridge being from his weapon, he was asked.

[00:54:35] And he said he actually was not carrying a firearm at all when he was there because he always thought that the gun was too big.

[00:54:44] And when he's wearing a suit and working, having a holster that kind of pokes at him as he kneels down to do work, he found it annoying.

[00:54:51] So he had developed the habit of just leaving his weapon in his vehicle.

[00:54:56] That sounds like something you would do.

[00:54:58] Yes.

[00:55:01] And he was there, as I indicate, he arrived at about 1.11 p.m.

[00:55:06] He leaves the scene at 10.30 p.m.

[00:55:11] And they started showing some pictures he took, including one of the injury to Abby's neck.

[00:55:20] And this is the story we heard before.

[00:55:23] The others were moving this alternative light source, this blue light around when it was Gasman who saw something glittery in the leaves.

[00:55:31] He spotted it with his flashlight and then he kind of lightly fans away gently the leaves and he spots the .40 caliber cartridge.

[00:55:41] He could just see the head stamp of the cartridge.

[00:55:44] It was kind of stuck in the ground.

[00:55:46] So it was collected and there were no other cartridges found anywhere within the crime scene.

[00:55:53] People had speculated, oh, maybe people have cartridges or whatever from hunting.

[00:55:57] That does not appear to be the case.

[00:56:02] And then we talked about the sticks.

[00:56:04] As we all know, there were sticks on the bodies.

[00:56:07] These sticks were examined.

[00:56:08] He says they were systematically documented and then set aside one at a time in a pile.

[00:56:17] And they actually left the sticks at the scene.

[00:56:21] And he indicated he believed there was no blood on the stick.

[00:56:26] Some had moss on them.

[00:56:27] They seemed kind of crumbly.

[00:56:29] And he had never heard of people getting DNA from sticks before.

[00:56:34] So they decided they have no value.

[00:56:36] And they didn't think it would be reasonable to expect DNA results from them if they took them to a lab.

[00:56:43] So why take them to a lab and expect them to do stuff they can't do?

[00:56:47] How quickly did they get them after they did that?

[00:56:50] He says they went back and collected the sticks on March 3rd.

[00:56:54] And he took them to the Lafayette Post.

[00:56:57] He knew where the sticks had been left.

[00:56:58] They were in like a little pile.

[00:56:59] And so he gathered them and took them to the Lafayette Post.

[00:57:05] Sounds like somebody got yelled at.

[00:57:07] Sounds like someone got yelled at.

[00:57:09] I mean, I would have preferred them to just take the sticks immediately.

[00:57:12] But I mean, my understanding is that bark is not very good for DNA.

[00:57:16] But I think you should just do it.

[00:57:19] What if there's a hair tangled up in one of them?

[00:57:22] That's my take.

[00:57:23] Yes.

[00:57:27] So this cross-examination was done by Andrew Baldwin.

[00:57:33] He said, wait, no.

[00:57:35] Should bullets found at crime scenes be photographically documented?

[00:57:39] Well, did they talk about the sticks?

[00:57:41] Because I feel like I would have made a bigger deal about that.

[00:57:44] Let's talk about the sticks.

[00:57:45] Okay, they got some sticks.

[00:57:47] Don't get ahead of us.

[00:57:48] It's not stick season yet.

[00:57:50] Sorry, that's a terrible joke.

[00:57:51] So he agreed that the bullets should be photographically documented.

[00:58:00] But Baldwin kept on returning to this point.

[00:58:02] The jury needs to know the bullet taken from the ground is the same one presented to them.

[00:58:08] Maybe it could have been videotaped if someone picked it up.

[00:58:12] And the gentleman disagreed.

[00:58:14] The witness disagreed.

[00:58:15] He said, you know, taking it out and handling it so you can tape it.

[00:58:18] So you can videotape it.

[00:58:20] But, you know, that risks some of the integrity of it.

[00:58:25] Yeah, because wouldn't that contaminate it?

[00:58:27] Or like if this touched DNA, wouldn't that be, you know, I don't know.

[00:58:32] I guess I'm just like, let me just try to like, because if the defense is saying this and that's normally done, then I see their point.

[00:58:40] And I feel like that's a reasonable thing to make.

[00:58:41] But like, that's not normally done.

[00:58:45] At least according to these witnesses.

[00:58:47] At least according to these witnesses.

[00:58:48] Because if it's not normally done, then I'm like, okay, then you're just kind of just being arbitrary and like moving the goalposts, frankly.

[00:58:58] If it's something that's like that's the standard and people are just not following that, then obviously it's more serious in my opinion.

[00:59:06] Baldwin made the point, you did not document that clothes on Abbey were damp.

[00:59:12] Baldwin asked at one point, would you agree this was a very odd crime scene?

[00:59:18] And the answer was no.

[00:59:21] Then we get back to what you want to talk about.

[00:59:24] You want to talk about the sticks.

[00:59:27] He says that someone told him to go get the sticks.

[00:59:30] And Baldwin says, was it a mistake not to collect those sticks?

[00:59:35] And the witness says, I don't think so.

[00:59:38] And Baldwin said, we know if these sticks were kind of rough, couldn't they have gotten the killer skin cells on them?

[00:59:46] And the witness says, well, not if he wore gloves.

[00:59:49] Yeah, but they don't.

[00:59:50] And Baldwin said, did he wear gloves?

[00:59:52] And the answer was, I don't know.

[00:59:54] I feel like it was a mistake not to collect the sticks sooner.

[00:59:58] Are you falling asleep?

[00:59:59] No, I'm not.

[01:00:00] I'm fine.

[01:00:00] I feel like it's not.

[01:00:02] I feel like that's a reasonable criticism from the defense of the CSI team.

[01:00:06] I think generally they were relatively thorough.

[01:00:08] I think the stuff about the bullets seems ridiculous.

[01:00:10] But I think it's fair to knock them about the sticks.

[01:00:13] Again, it seems unlikely that that would result in a lot.

[01:00:16] But you never know.

[01:00:18] And sometimes having that extra thing, just to be thorough, I guess.

[01:00:24] Baldwin said, did you ever go down any suspected paths that the killer might have taken to look for shoe prints or what have you?

[01:00:34] And the answer was, I wasn't asked to.

[01:00:36] I think it's entirely possible that this early stage of the investigation, they might not have had an idea about where the killer might have walked.

[01:00:44] Baldwin said at one point, do you know who Brad Weber is?

[01:00:47] And the winners did not.

[01:00:49] So Baldwin moved on.

[01:00:51] Brad Weber, of course, is the owner of the house at the end of this so-called access road.

[01:00:57] And it's this access road that plays a key role in the defense's theory.

[01:01:02] Yes.

[01:01:07] Also, you know, they want to establish the time of death for the girls because that's very important for their theory.

[01:01:15] And one way you can establish the time of death, of course, is by getting the body temperature of the body when you find it.

[01:01:22] When you say they want to establish, you mean the defense?

[01:01:24] The defense really wants to establish the time of death.

[01:01:27] Okay.

[01:01:27] Now, I don't know anything about what was said, obviously, because I wasn't there.

[01:01:30] But my understanding is time of death pinpointing, first of all, is not always super reliable.

[01:01:36] But second of all, can really be thrown off by extreme temperatures.

[01:01:41] Like, you know, the bodies were overnight in February.

[01:01:45] So I'm going to guess that there is no time of death because that wouldn't be accurate.

[01:01:51] And that the defense wants to play with that.

[01:01:54] The death, they want to have a time of death and they want it to be many hours later than what the prosecution does.

[01:02:00] Yes.

[01:02:00] And as I was mentioning a moment ago, one way you can establish time of death to some degree is to look at the body temperature of the dead body.

[01:02:11] And so Baldwin said, what was the body temperature of the girls when you were there?

[01:02:16] And the answer was, I don't know.

[01:02:20] And Baldwin was like, what, you didn't take their temperature?

[01:02:23] Wasn't that a big mistake?

[01:02:25] And the answer was no, because you don't want to insert anything to take someone's temperature when they're dead if there is any possibility at all that a sexual assault might have taken place.

[01:02:37] Because if you do that, you might mess up some of the evidence of the sexual assault.

[01:02:44] And so Baldwin here had a very interesting response to that.

[01:02:51] He kind of said, well, you know, my mother used to take my temperature by putting thermometers under my arm.

[01:02:58] Oh, I thought that was, okay.

[01:03:00] I'm glad that went in that direction.

[01:03:03] And Luttrell got objected, like, you know, why do we care what his mother did?

[01:03:10] And he didn't say it quite like that, but, you know, pretty basically.

[01:03:17] And, of course, there is, you don't get someone's core body temperature by measuring their temperature under their arm.

[01:03:25] Yeah, you have to, it has to, yeah, go inside the body in some way.

[01:03:29] Yeah.

[01:03:30] And Baldwin got kind of cute at this point in a way that the jury isn't yet in a position to understand.

[01:03:38] Because he started saying, well, maybe you could have gone to CVS and gotten a thermometer.

[01:03:43] And, of course, Richard Allen worked at CVS.

[01:03:46] What?

[01:03:49] What?

[01:03:50] Baldwin's doing, like, weird stand-up in the middle of this.

[01:03:52] Okay.

[01:03:54] Why do you think, can I just go back to this?

[01:03:56] Why do you think they didn't mention more about Richard Allen in the beginning of this, like, in his opening statement?

[01:04:00] Like, just like.

[01:04:01] That haunts you.

[01:04:02] It haunts me.

[01:04:03] Like, hey, there's this guy.

[01:04:04] He's a little guy who works at CVS.

[01:04:07] He's a manager.

[01:04:08] He's in retail.

[01:04:10] Wife, kid.

[01:04:11] Dog.

[01:04:13] Likes to wear lavender polo shirts and sit around outside with his dog.

[01:04:17] You know, do something like that.

[01:04:18] And maybe then that CVS thing would have been, would have made sense to everybody.

[01:04:23] I'm just, I don't know.

[01:04:24] I'm haunted by it.

[01:04:25] I think it could have been a way better opening.

[01:04:29] Get over it, man.

[01:04:30] No, I'm not going to get over it.

[01:04:31] We were told that he was really good at opening statements.

[01:04:34] And I was expecting more storytelling, I guess.

[01:04:36] So then Baldwin started asking him about other items that were recovered in this general area, this big area.

[01:04:47] The crime scene.

[01:04:49] But by crime scene at this point, I'm talking about more than just ground zero.

[01:04:53] I'm talking about a large area encompassing the Monon High Bridge and the surrounding area.

[01:04:58] You know, what are some of the other things that were recovered?

[01:05:02] You know, particularly things I'm guessing that might have had DNA on them.

[01:05:07] And so it turns out they found a Jimmy John's cup with a straw.

[01:05:14] And the cup looked like it was recent.

[01:05:17] And he does not know if the straw was ever tested for DNA.

[01:05:22] And that cup was found at the west end of the bridge near where the public trail ends.

[01:05:28] They also collected from that same general area the remnants of an energy drink and some camel cigarette butts that looked fresh.

[01:05:38] And it is unclear if any of those were ever tested for DNA.

[01:05:46] In redirect, Prosecutor Luttrell made the point we've already made about how the core temperature,

[01:05:55] which is what you need to determine no time of death, that's at the center of the body.

[01:06:00] And you don't get that from taking someone's temperature under their armpit.

[01:06:05] Do we know that all those things weren't tested for DNA?

[01:06:08] Or is it just not this guy's job?

[01:06:14] Probably the latter.

[01:06:15] Okay.

[01:06:16] I'm just curious because obviously you want to test a lot of things for DNA in a case like this.

[01:06:20] But if it's like a situation, like one thing you have to remember is like it could come up later that some of them are tested or some of them are, you know, they don't have enough.

[01:06:28] But like we're not going to necessarily know that with each witness.

[01:06:33] There might be some, I guess, cliffhangers, I'm saying, for both defense and prosecution witnesses where it gets clarified later.

[01:06:40] Since there was all this talk about how if you really want to track evidence, you need to videotape it being collected.

[01:06:47] Prosecutor Luttrell said, is the best way to track evidence to actually put it in a marked container and then track it?

[01:06:54] And the witness said yes.

[01:06:56] And then Luttrell said, have you ever videotaped someone picking up an item to collect?

[01:07:02] And the answer was no.

[01:07:04] Okay.

[01:07:04] Well, that's helpful because, yeah, I don't know.

[01:07:08] Then Baldwin said in his recross, if you had to do it over again, would you take a picture of the bullet after removing it from the ground?

[01:07:18] And the witness said if it had been up to him, he would have done it the first time.

[01:07:23] Okay.

[01:07:23] I mean, I don't know.

[01:07:25] I think the bullet stuff is less concerning than the stick stuff, in my opinion.

[01:07:29] That's just me.

[01:07:30] Then it was time for juror questions.

[01:07:32] And there are two of them.

[01:07:35] The first question is, would there be any reason that the bullet submitted in evidence would be different from the bullet collected at the crime scene?

[01:07:46] And the answer the witness gave was no.

[01:07:49] The second question is, is there a process by which the jury can be ensured that they are seeing evidence that has not been tampered with?

[01:07:59] And then the witness explained the chain of custody and how items are given numbers to identify them and to track them throughout the process.

[01:08:10] What do you make of those questions?

[01:08:14] It sounds to me like you can look at it two ways.

[01:08:20] You can.

[01:08:21] That's what I was thinking, too.

[01:08:22] What are the two ways you look at them?

[01:08:24] Okay.

[01:08:24] One, the defense got to them.

[01:08:27] They totally don't believe the bullet.

[01:08:29] They're very concerned.

[01:08:31] Two, they're essentially like, hey, is this at all true?

[01:08:38] And, you know, no?

[01:08:39] Okay.

[01:08:39] So it could be good for the defense or the prosecution.

[01:08:42] I guess that's pretty vague.

[01:08:43] I think the first one reads more as friendly to the prosecution and the second one reads more as friendly to the defense.

[01:08:51] Like, ensure it hasn't been tampered with.

[01:08:52] That sounds more suspicious.

[01:08:54] The first one's more of like, why would this happen?

[01:08:56] So, I mean, is that your read or am I just?

[01:09:00] Yeah, that sounds good.

[01:09:01] Yeah.

[01:09:01] Okay.

[01:09:03] So the final witness of the day, and this witness was not finished, even though Judge Gull chose to let the court session run long,

[01:09:11] was Brian Olahai.

[01:09:14] He was also one of the criminals, crime scene investigators.

[01:09:18] He was also one of the CSIs.

[01:09:19] He was also one of the criminals.

[01:09:21] He was also one of the CSIs on the scene.

[01:09:24] A lot of this is repetitive.

[01:09:26] On February 14, 2017, he received a call from Carroll County Sheriff's Detective Kevin Hammond telling him about what had happened and requesting that he assist at the scene.

[01:09:38] So then he's the one that calls in Page and Gassman.

[01:09:43] He'd worked with them in the past.

[01:09:46] Olahai went to the cemetery.

[01:09:48] He located Detective Hammond.

[01:09:51] The two went down a steep ravine that led to Deer Creek.

[01:09:56] Particularly, it was a heavily wooded area.

[01:10:00] Olahai said it was a typical Indiana forested area along a river.

[01:10:05] He estimated that the temperature at that time was approximately 55 degrees.

[01:10:10] He said there were dead leaves on the ground and there were sticks.

[01:10:14] As he came down the hill, he saw crime scene tape being set up,

[01:10:19] and he instructed them to make the crime scene as large as they could so not to risk leaving anything out.

[01:10:30] He was not carrying a firearm because he knew he would be going up and down a hill.

[01:10:37] And the guns he did own took 9mm and .45 caliber ammunition.

[01:10:43] Okay.

[01:10:45] He talked about how the wet clothes that were covered from the water were taken to a special drying room

[01:10:55] at the Putnamville Post of the Indiana State Police.

[01:10:58] This was news to me.

[01:11:00] I didn't know these things existed.

[01:11:01] It's a special room that moves filtered air around to dry it.

[01:11:10] That makes sense.

[01:11:40] He said he was going to be able to see the blood.

[01:11:41] Before, from the other witnesses, some pretty bad pictures of some of these wounds.

[01:11:48] He also talks about how some of his processes work.

[01:11:53] If you want to do a DNA swab of a murder victim and you're hoping to find DNA from the killer,

[01:12:02] he said you really want to look for an area on the body where there's a lot less blood.

[01:12:07] Because he said the blood, pardon me, the blood is from the victim.

[01:12:12] And that would mute any DNA from the killer.

[01:12:16] Yeah.

[01:12:17] He said it's like you're at a rock concert and everybody is yelling,

[01:12:20] but there's one person that's whispering.

[01:12:22] And you'd want the whisper, but you couldn't pick it out because of all of the noise from the victim.

[01:12:30] Okay.

[01:12:31] So, like, the bloodiness of this scene seems to have been something that was a problem.

[01:12:37] But they did find some areas on the body to take DNA swabs from.

[01:12:40] Right.

[01:12:41] He said both girls were cool to the touch and rigor mortis had set in.

[01:12:48] I mean, like, yeah, they did DNA swabs, but obviously DNA didn't materialize in this case.

[01:12:55] He mentioned that Abby's clothes were wet to the extent that she seemed to have been in the water at some point.

[01:13:06] Okay.

[01:13:07] And, yeah, again, that's what I was talking about with the problematic for the defense's theory.

[01:13:12] I'd be curious if they had some kind of explanation for that.

[01:13:16] Another thing I was, you know, I mean, I'm going to ask you a question at the end because this is kind of where the rubber meets the road in terms of opinions, I guess.

[01:13:28] I wonder, like, how much of what we're hearing represents, like, a relatively good CSI situation that maybe had some errors that we'd prefer things done differently.

[01:13:39] Like, obviously, errors are made in every single police investigation.

[01:13:43] No exceptions.

[01:13:44] Like, that's just humans at work making human mistakes.

[01:13:49] But, like, how much could be, like, just the defense kind of making stuff up or how much could be actual problems?

[01:13:57] And are those problems big enough to be concerned about the integrity of the case?

[01:14:01] And I'm going to get your opinion, but you can say what you're going to say first.

[01:14:05] I'm sorry.

[01:14:05] I'm rambling.

[01:14:06] Well, no, that was it.

[01:14:09] That was a great insight.

[01:14:10] I'm sorry.

[01:14:11] Sorry to disappoint.

[01:14:15] I was like, what was your question?

[01:14:16] Do you think that these mistakes were, like, run-of-the-mill kind of mistakes that, you know, in terms of, like, I'm thinking specifically.

[01:14:22] I guess I'm hung up on the sticks.

[01:14:24] Do you think those were pretty run-of-the-mill?

[01:14:26] Yeah.

[01:14:26] Yeah.

[01:14:26] That's kind of my sense, but, you know, I don't know.

[01:14:30] I can definitely understand the defense beating them up over the sticks.

[01:14:33] The bullet seems a lot more marginal than was rumored.

[01:14:40] So these pictures were being shown on a screen that was positioned in such a way that it could be difficult for Prosecutor Nick McClellan, where he was sitting to see it.

[01:14:52] And how would you describe the setup?

[01:14:54] It's like everybody's sitting at one big table, isn't it?

[01:14:57] It's really weird.

[01:14:58] So they're all sitting at one big table.

[01:15:00] So at one point, in order to see these pictures that are being shown, Prosecutor Nick McClellan actually had to move to a different spot.

[01:15:08] And the spot he chose had him sitting next to Richard Allen.

[01:15:12] Oh, awkward.

[01:15:13] Jeez.

[01:15:13] He mentioned, the witness mentioned that they found the cell phone underneath Abby's body.

[01:15:22] And there was condensation on the screen.

[01:15:25] It was a purple-colored case, Harry Potter-themed.

[01:15:28] It was directly under the small of Abby's back underneath his shoe.

[01:15:35] Each body was placed on an item kind of similar to a twin bed sheet.

[01:15:42] They were wrapped in these sheets and then put into a body bag, which was zip.

[01:15:49] And the reason for the extra sheet was just to make doubly sure that nothing of potential evidentiary value was lost.

[01:15:56] And then they were transported to Terre Haute, Indiana for the autopsy.

[01:16:02] And this witness attended the autopsy.

[01:16:05] And that is when the testimony ended for the day.

[01:16:09] How did Richard Allen seem?

[01:16:12] He, at different points, seemed to be like spinning in his chair a little bit, kind of awkwardly.

[01:16:18] So maybe a little bit more agitated than we've seen him since the jury came in.

[01:16:23] And then how did the jury seem?

[01:16:27] Uh, they seemed engaged.

[01:16:29] Did they seem upset?

[01:16:30] Yeah.

[01:16:31] Yeah, I imagine they were.

[01:16:34] Well, I guess that's all for day three.

[01:16:38] Yeah.

[01:16:38] Maybe we'll see you for day four.

[01:16:41] We will.

[01:16:42] Yeah.

[01:16:43] And, um, thanks for listening.

[01:16:46] We really appreciate your support and, uh, you taking the time to spend time with us listening.

[01:16:53] And, um, hopefully, you know, we'll just keep going and keep getting information and learning more.

[01:17:00] And I just think people should keep an open mind on the prosecution.

[01:17:03] People should keep an open mind on the defense.

[01:17:06] Let's hear what they have to say.

[01:17:07] I've expressed some skepticism upon what I think is the defense's theory, but it's possible that they'll be able to tighten it up in a way that, uh, makes it make sense.

[01:17:16] So let's, uh, let's see what they have to say and let's, uh, just figure it out together.

[01:17:22] Anyways, thanks very much.

[01:17:26] Thanks so much for listening to The Murder Sheet.

[01:17:29] If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us at murdersheet at gmail dot com.

[01:17:37] If you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[01:17:46] If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon dot com slash murdersheet.

[01:17:56] If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www.buymeacoffee dot com slash murdersheet.

[01:18:06] We very much appreciate any support.

[01:18:10] Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for The Murder Sheet, and who you can find on the web at kevintg dot com.

[01:18:20] If you're looking to talk with other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook.

[01:18:27] We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much.

[01:18:33] We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages.

[01:18:40] Thanks again for listening.

[01:18:44] Thanks so much for sticking around to the end of this Murder Sheet episode.

[01:18:47] Just as a quick post-roll ad, we wanted to tell you again about our friend Jason Blair's wonderful Silver Linings Handbook.

[01:18:56] This show is phenomenal.

[01:18:58] Whether you are interested in true crime, the criminal justice system, law, mental health, stories of marginalized people, overcoming tragedy, well-being, like he does it all.

[01:19:09] This is a show for you.

[01:19:10] He has so many different conversations with interesting people, people whose loved ones have gone missing, other podcasters in the true crime space, just interesting people with interesting life experiences.

[01:19:26] And Jason's gift, I think, is just being an incredibly empathetic and compassionate interviewer, where he's really letting his guests tell their stories and asking really interesting questions along the way, guiding those conversations forward.

[01:19:38] I would liken it to like you're kind of almost sitting down with friends and sort of just hearing these fascinating tales that you wouldn't get otherwise, because he just has that ability as an interviewer to tease it out and really make it interesting for his audience.

[01:19:53] On a personal level, Jason is frankly a great guy.

[01:19:57] Yes.

[01:19:57] He's been a really good friend to us.

[01:20:00] And so it's fun to be able to hit a button on my phone and get a little dose of Jason talking to people whenever I want.

[01:20:07] But it's a really terrific show.

[01:20:10] We really recommend it highly.

[01:20:12] Yeah, I think our audience will like it.

[01:20:13] And you've already met Jason if you listen consistently to our show.

[01:20:16] He's been on our show a couple times.

[01:20:17] We've been on his show.

[01:20:19] He's a terrific guest.

[01:20:20] I say this in one of our ads about him, but I literally always – I'm like, oh, yeah, I remember when Jason said this.

[01:20:26] That really resonated.

[01:20:27] Like I do quote him in conversations sometimes because he really has a good grasp of different complicated issues.

[01:20:33] She quotes him to me all the time.

[01:20:33] I do – I'm like, I remember when Jason said this?

[01:20:35] That was so right.

[01:20:36] So, I mean, I think if we're doing that, I think – and you like us, I think you should give it a shot.

[01:20:41] Give it a try.

[01:20:41] I think you'll really enjoy it.

[01:20:43] And again, he does a range of different topics, but they all kind of have the similar theme of compassion, of overcoming suffering, of dealing with suffering, of mental health, wellness, things like that.

[01:20:54] There's kind of a common through line of compassion and empathy there that I think we find very nice.

[01:20:59] And we work on a lot of stories that can be very tough, and we try to bring compassion and empathy to it.

[01:21:05] But this is something that almost can be like if you're kind of feeling a little burned out by true crime, I think this is kind of the life-affirming stuff that can be nice to listen to in a podcast.

[01:21:15] It's compassionate.

[01:21:17] It's affirming.

[01:21:18] But I also want to emphasize it's smart.

[01:21:22] People – Jason is a very intelligent, articulate person.

[01:21:27] This is a smart show, but it's an accessible show.

[01:21:31] I think you'll all really enjoy it.

[01:21:33] Yeah, and he's got a great community that he's building.

[01:21:35] So we're really excited to be a part of that.

[01:21:36] We're fans of the show.

[01:21:38] We love it.

[01:21:38] And we would strongly encourage you all to check it out.

[01:21:41] Download some episodes.

[01:21:42] Listen.

[01:21:43] I think you'll understand what we're talking about once you do.

[01:21:46] But anyways, you can listen to The Silver Linings Handbook wherever you listen to podcasts.

[01:21:51] Wherever you listen to podcasts.

[01:21:52] Very easy to find.

[01:21:53] Absolutely.